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| ThatTreeOverTher | How is it that Sailfish can run Dalvik Android apps? | 00:39 |
|---|---|---|
| K4-t | Because Dalvik is a virtual machine | 00:41 |
| K4-t | how does java run it's apps on all thos different platforms? | 00:42 |
| K4-t | I hope that kind of answers your question. :P | 00:42 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | Sure, but isn't there some sort of "secret sauce" that makes it, you know, work? I can't just slap a Dalvik VM on my desktop Linux and get native notifications and Google API stuff | 00:43 |
| K4-t | ARM :3 | 00:43 |
| lpotter | and licenses | 00:44 |
| K4-t | X86_64 computers vs ARM | 00:44 |
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| K4-t | and what lpotter said | 00:44 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | Okay, then my ARM Chromebook. | 00:44 |
| K4-t | You can run android apps on chrome | 00:44 |
| K4-t | some run quite well | 00:44 |
| K4-t | :P | 00:44 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | How does it wooork though | 00:44 |
| K4-t | Virtual machines and magic | 00:44 |
| K4-t | google magic | 00:45 |
| K4-t | :3 | 00:45 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | >_< that's literally what someone else said | 00:45 |
| tigeli | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9rJJSiUy0I | 00:45 |
| K4-t | http://lifehacker.com/how-to-run-android-apps-inside-chrome-on-any-desktop-op-1637564101 | 00:45 |
| K4-t | this explains it a bit better | 00:45 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | Can Sailfish run ART apps? | 00:47 |
| K4-t | Most ART apps wil work on Dalvik | 00:49 |
| K4-t | They're mostly compatible from what I remember | 00:49 |
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| ThatTreeOverTher | My imagination tells me that the easiest way to do something like this is to run an unmodified Dalvik VM with a little bit of "magic" | 00:50 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | that is, a classloader function that replaces OS API calls to what would be Android to Sailfish or whatever | 00:51 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | This is theoretically easy enough to do and mostly just a pain because there's a lot of API surface to cover | 00:52 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | It begs the question of why Sailfish doesn't make it open source :/ | 00:54 |
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| sandsmark | ThatTreeOverTher: because jolla didn't write it | 01:00 |
| K4-t | lol | 01:00 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | Oh, really | 01:00 |
| sandsmark | and there's much more to it than that | 01:00 |
| K4-t | Yea ThatTreeOverTher | 01:00 |
| sandsmark | all that zygote crap, for example | 01:00 |
| K4-t | it's googles invention | 01:00 |
| sandsmark | no, I mean the android compatibility platform thing | 01:01 |
| K4-t | Dalvik and ART | 01:01 |
| sandsmark | it's a propriatary solution that jolla has paid for | 01:01 |
| sandsmark | proprietary, even | 01:01 |
| K4-t | Yup | 01:01 |
| K4-t | which makes it a bitch to work with | 01:01 |
| K4-t | :D | 01:01 |
| sandsmark | well, IMHO android is a bitch to work with even on android phones :p | 01:01 |
| K4-t | That it is. lol | 01:02 |
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| ThatTreeOverTher | That's unfortunate.. I was wondering how they got it to work so well | 01:03 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | Well, as in, works at native speed and doesn't crash more than 50% of the time | 01:04 |
| sandsmark | doesn't really crash at all for me | 01:04 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | (I may have watched an old review of the Jolla phone) | 01:04 |
| sandsmark | probably, haven't had an android application crash on me yet | 01:06 |
| sandsmark | (well, except my own, but that's my own fault :p) | 01:06 |
| sandsmark | but yeah, this is the product they're using: http://www.myriadgroup.com/products/device-solutions/mobile-software/alien-dalvik/ | 01:06 |
| sandsmark | they seem to have their own VM as well that they say outperforms the normal dalvik | 01:07 |
| sandsmark | «Increases the execution speed of applications developed using the Java programming language by up to five times» | 01:08 |
| sandsmark | thanks to google for making the android stack bsd and not gpl, so they don't have to release the source :p | 01:10 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | I was hoping to build my own phone from ARM single-board computers and a GSM module... looks like I won't get Android apps running just yet | 01:10 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | But theoretically I could inject a class to provide all the API stuff into every dex when loaded, right? | 01:14 |
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| sandsmark | ThatTreeOverTher: you would need to get dalvik and friends to run first | 01:18 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | Theoretically that wouldn't be extraordinarily difficult though... Would it? | 01:19 |
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| ThatTreeOverTher | Worst case scenario, I boot up a VM that runs a hacked up version of Android | 01:20 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | which in turn opens a Dalvik VM | 01:20 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | (VM-ception?) | 01:20 |
| sandsmark | Sounds fun :D | 01:21 |
| sandsmark | Would probably be easier to just port android | 01:22 |
| ThatTreeOverTher | True.. and then I could get access to APIs | 01:23 |
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| Almindor | how do you make the SDK copy all your project's .qm translation files? (or package them as part of the RPM) | 02:24 |
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| ryukafalz | So every time I try deploying my project, the "/home/deploy/installroot" directory doesn't seem to exist. Is there something obvious I may be missing? | 04:57 |
| ryukafalz | also where are _datadir and _bindir defined? | 04:58 |
| ryukafalz | I haven't been able to find much documentation regarding these | 04:58 |
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| locusf | those are mb2 gimmicks | 05:19 |
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| locusf | ryukafalz: try create the directory | 05:20 |
| ryukafalz | locusf: in the mersdk vm? | 05:23 |
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| locusf | ryukafalz: yes | 05:23 |
| locusf | if that doesn't help, you might want to try updating your sdk vm | 05:24 |
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| ryukafalz | oh damn okay why didn't I think of that? | 05:26 |
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| ryukafalz | doesn't look like that was my whole problem though, hmm | 05:28 |
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| ryukafalz | so, long story short, I'm trying to get an existing application to build on sfos | 05:30 |
| ryukafalz | so I initially copied the yaml file for the sample application | 05:31 |
| ryukafalz | but I'm currently getting this error: "Error on file "/home/deploy/installroot/usr/share/applications/*.desktop": No such file or directory" | 05:32 |
| ryukafalz | the .pro file does appear to have the .desktop file in INSTALLS | 05:34 |
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| ryukafalz | locusf: any ideas? | 05:35 |
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| locusf | ryukafalz: hmm | 05:43 |
| locusf | ryukafalz: its a non-sfos app? | 05:43 |
| ryukafalz | it is, yes, though it is qt5+qml | 05:43 |
| ryukafalz | .pro file for reference, currently unmodified: https://github.com/ricochet-im/ricochet/blob/master/ricochet.pro | 05:44 |
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| locusf | you might want to contact special as he is the author of the software :) | 05:45 |
| locusf | he said somewhere that sfos app could be coming | 05:45 |
| ryukafalz | yeah, I talked to him about it a bit a while back | 05:46 |
| locusf | ryukafalz: remove the .desktop file from the .spec file | 05:46 |
| ryukafalz | wanted to give it a shot myself in the meantime ;) | 05:46 |
| ryukafalz | hmm | 05:47 |
| locusf | yeah understandable, the app seems great | 05:47 |
| ryukafalz | "find: /home/deploy/installroot: No such file or directory" mmmhhh because the generated spec file has "rm -rf %{buildroot}" in the %install section... | 05:50 |
| locusf | lol theres your problem :) | 05:51 |
| ryukafalz | well that's the default though XD | 05:52 |
| ryukafalz | hmm, I get the feeling the %qmake5_install section is supposed to handle creating it | 05:52 |
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| ryukafalz | but according to this documentation qmake should be able to use the INSTALLS section to put files in their proper locations, etc http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/qmake-environment-reference.html#installs | 05:54 |
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| ryukafalz | hmm... took a look at the generated Makefile.Debug | 06:03 |
| ryukafalz | install: FORCE | 06:04 |
| ryukafalz | FORCE: | 06:04 |
| ryukafalz | welp | 06:04 |
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| ryukafalz | I think that explains it, heh | 06:05 |
| locusf | hmm | 06:10 |
| locusf | interesting | 06:10 |
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| stephg | ningles! | 07:45 |
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| zGrr | moin :) | 09:30 |
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| Gurvan | hello | 10:50 |
| Stskeeps | hello hello | 10:51 |
| anYc | is there a way to trigger a synchronization of carddav/caldav accounts per SSH? | 10:51 |
| tbr | probably by a dbus message | 10:52 |
| anYc | hm ok, thanks | 10:53 |
| Gurvan | I suppose many here have enabled developer mode for jolla phone, I would like to do it too however it says it *may* void the warranty but isn't very clear about the conditions, doed anybody know them by any chance? | 10:54 |
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| Stskeeps | Gurvan: generally if you break something you may get to keep both pieces; so don't do anything really really stupid like kill the bootloader or make recovery mode impossible | 10:54 |
| tbr | Gurvan: "don't do really stupid things" | 10:54 |
| Stskeeps | if you at all times can factory reset successfully, you're fine | 10:55 |
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| tbr | yeah, what Stskeeps said, don't mess with the block devices unless you really really know what you are doing and are willing to sacrifice your device to the flying spaghetti monster | 10:55 |
| Stskeeps | with great power comes great responsibility, etc | 10:55 |
| tbr | and a big electricity bill | 10:56 |
| dr_gogeta86 | hi guys | 10:57 |
| Gurvan | ok so if you don't play with overclocking or writing an app where you must throw your phone the highest possble is ok? for instance writing python or c programs doesn't void your warranty if you find a dead pixel? | 10:57 |
| Gurvan | @tbr ^^ | 10:57 |
| tbr | Gurvan: yes, that's how it is handled so far | 10:58 |
| Gurvan | ok, thanks :) | 10:59 |
| tbr | if your device becomes a hard brick that can't be revived by recovery and you had developer mode on → that might mean out of warranty (just as an example) | 10:59 |
| tbr | turning on developer mode and unlocking boot loaders is part of the unboxing anyway, isn't it? | 11:00 |
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| Gurvan | well I'm a linux sysadmin so being able to work in ssh is important to me ;) | 11:01 |
| urjaman | so it is possible to brick this so bad it cant be made to boot from an usb host or SD (without opening it up)? ... thats sad. | 11:01 |
| Stskeeps | urjaman: well, if you overwrite the bootloader code on the emmc, it's rather stupid | 11:01 |
| Stskeeps | and no usb host support on jolla phone; plus booting from sd is a bit of a unknown in consumer electronics | 11:02 |
| ikarus | What is the easiest way to start with development for SailfishOS without using the IDE ? | 11:02 |
| zutto | booting from sd isnt impossible task tho | 11:02 |
| tbr | urjaman: depending on the vendor of the eMMC it may be possible to write protect boot-loader and recovery, but then you immediately get people complaining that the device isn't open enough... | 11:03 |
| urjaman | but i assume it has a boot ROM that loads the code from the emmc? ... I come from the openpandora parts and that omap 3530 can boot as an usb device or from sd with the ROM it has burned (by pressing a key)... | 11:03 |
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| tbr | urjaman: the pressing a key changes SYSBOOT, a specific concept of the OMAP family. Qualcomm might have something similar, but they also have a liking for crypto signed stuff, so it might not be that trivial to boot from µSD | 11:04 |
| coderus | anyone have link to patch for controls in notifications view? | 11:04 |
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| tbr | and JFTR: also the Nokia devices behaved the same. You could effectively destroy a N900, N9 or N950 by wiping certain parts of the flash | 11:06 |
| urjaman | N900 doesnt have sysboot? thats an omap... | 11:06 |
| tbr | urjaman: the sysboot config on the device allowed booting from eMMC and USB at least. don't remember details | 11:07 |
| tbr | urjaman: the problem is the HS variety of the SoC used, it expects a signed loader and that has certain assumptions about what it finds on the eMMC | 11:07 |
| * urjaman is now wondering how you load the eMMC with data in the first place... | 11:08 | |
| tbr | if the boot loader doesn't find that, it just stops. your device is now unbootable and short of unsoldering the eMMC there is no way to recover | 11:08 |
| tbr | urjaman: by a factory boot loader | 11:08 |
| tbr | urjaman: something closely guarded and well secured. The device is booted e.g. over USB and the special loader then takes additional data over USB and sets up the device, programs IMEI etc | 11:09 |
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| urjaman | so just trust sequencing of "empty eMMC, try usb" ... i was expecting a bed of nails that turns some pin so it can boot from insert_other_method (RS-232 or usb or uSD or..) | 11:11 |
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| tbr | urjaman: that might also happen on some sort of debug port, yes | 11:12 |
| tbr | urjaman: recently booting devices from USB has become quite popular though | 11:13 |
| tbr | and by booting from USB I do NOT mean host mode and a USB stick | 11:13 |
| tbr | the device appears for a split second as USB device and then a computer can send it commands | 11:13 |
| tbr | c.f. android fastboot, nokia flasher, etc | 11:13 |
| urjaman | yeah i know usb device (i mis-wrote in that my first question... i meant _from_ a host _as_ a device) | 11:14 |
| tbr | booting from UART used to be popular before USB | 11:14 |
| urjaman | most of the nokia symbian phones can be "catched" as a usb boot device (remove battery, attach usb, attach battery, press power) | 11:15 |
| urjaman | and that makes them kinda easily unbrickable ... i was expecting the same. | 11:16 |
| Toxip | hello everyone :) | 11:18 |
| Toxip | I have a problem. delegate items show outside the grid view. How can I make them "hide" under the view borders? | 11:19 |
| tbr | urjaman: oh, trust me, you can brick one of those | 11:21 |
| tbr | urjaman: they also rely on the loader finding certain data on the flash/emmmc | 11:21 |
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| urjaman | so that feature isnt 100% ROM? okay i didnt know. I'd never tried maliciously erasing them :P, just flashed bad enough stuff that it wont boot ... | 11:24 |
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| anYc | in case someone else wants to trigger a sync: dbus-send --print-reply --session --type=method_call --dest='com.meego.msyncd' '/synchronizer' com.meego.msyncd.startSync string:"carddav.Contacts-9" | 11:35 |
| anYc | set the last part to your account ID | 11:35 |
| anYc | or service | 11:36 |
| coderus | SK_work: ping | 11:41 |
| Toxip | pong | 11:42 |
| Toxip | lol | 11:42 |
| coderus | Toxip: for your problem solution is clip: true | 11:43 |
| Toxip | thanks :) | 11:43 |
| Toxip | I've made a lot of progress with my app now. It's starting to look like a game now :) | 11:47 |
| coderus | good :) | 11:49 |
| tbr | urjaman: btw, on a device where I was developing custom firmware, we agreed together with the manufacturer's R&D to simply make parts of the device NAND read-only in the kernel. The patch was documented and commented. If someone knew what they were doing they could just flash their own kernel without that patch. I believe that could be a sensible approach for jolla too. I called it the dont-shoot-yourself-in-the-foot.patch. cc/ Stskeeps | 11:50 |
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| urjaman | i guess i'll just keep far away from the bootloader & kernel bits... | 11:54 |
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| knihti | hey, whats is name of that slider-keyboard thingy i readed about somewhere? | 12:00 |
| locusf | knihti: tohkbd? | 12:00 |
| meklu | #jollatohkbd on this network | 12:00 |
| knihti | thats the one ! | 12:01 |
| m4g0g | guys | 12:03 |
| m4g0g | If I want always have one page as attached for all pages, how I can do it? | 12:03 |
| m4g0g | I should add pushAttached to every other pages? But how I should remove page from stack | 12:04 |
| m4g0g | Does friends app opensource or not? | 12:05 |
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| leszek | m4g0g: I think the easiest would be forking pageStack | 12:08 |
| m4g0g | what? | 12:10 |
| leszek | m4g0g: pageStack is a js file as far as I know | 12:10 |
| m4g0g | Friends has this behavior but I can't find sources of thos app | 12:10 |
| leszek | ah ok. Hmm... then I guess its done manually | 12:11 |
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| lukedirtwalker | m4g0g: friends sources are here: https://github.com/SfietKonstantin/friends-sailfish | 12:11 |
| leszek | perhaps one function in the main qml file which gets called onComponent completed | 12:11 |
| lukedirtwalker | m4g0g: ping SK_work to tell you more about it | 12:12 |
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| ikarus | So uh, back to the questions, any way to build, run, etc, without using the Qt Creator IDE ? it doesn't fit me well | 12:16 |
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| urjaman | I've built stuff on the phone... qmake, make, make install as root... seems to work, so i'd guess you can do the same with the SDK | 12:18 |
| ikarus | urjaman: so ssh into the build env and all that faff ? no scripts or the like outside of there to do that for me ? | 12:18 |
| urjaman | the SDK has a command that it uses to invoke the build on the VM side, but really i havent investigated | 12:20 |
| urjaman | thats also just a wrapper around ssh afaik :P | 12:20 |
| tbr | ikarus: I believe someone blogged how to do it | 12:20 |
| ikarus | tbr: google hasn't found any useful hits as "WITHOUT" is a word with very very low priority to google | 12:21 |
| urjaman | i read on a blog somebody took the build system out of the VM too | 12:21 |
| tbr | ikarus: the gist is quite simple, you ssh into the mer build vm and then use the sb2 targets or issue mb2 | 12:21 |
| tbr | sb2 -t SailfishOS-armv7hl | 12:22 |
| tbr | or for a root shell in the target: sb2 -t SailfishOS-armv7hl -R | 12:22 |
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| tbr | ikarus: if you have a rpm spec: mb build -t SailfishOS-armv7hl ./your.spec | 12:26 |
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| ikarus | tbr: presume I have nothing, never dealt with the Sailfish build system, haven't dealt with RPM in ages, I just know that IDEs make me want to punch people | 12:28 |
| anYc | the possibility to just download a vbox image of the MER SDK isn't maintained anymore? | 12:28 |
| Armadillo | hm, still no qa since thursday :-/ | 12:29 |
| anYc | ah, my question should go to #mer | 12:29 |
| ikarus | (if I went with IDEs that companies want me to use, I'd be using 4-6 different ones on a weekly basis, so I just stopped doing that) | 12:30 |
| tbr | anYc: you mean the mer one or the sailfish one that contains a mer build system? | 12:30 |
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| tbr | ikarus: so, do you have the sailfish sdk installed? | 12:30 |
| ikarus | yup | 12:31 |
| tbr | ok, then start the mer build vm (either through Qt creator or vbox UI, no difference) | 12:31 |
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| tbr | once that has booted you should be able to ssh into it. For me that's: ssh -p 2222 -i ~/sailfishos/vmshare/ssh/private_keys/engine/mersdk mersdk@localhost | 12:32 |
| tbr | but for you the path will be different | 12:32 |
| anYc | tbr: anything that allows me to quickly test a patch against nemomobile/buteo-sync-plugin-carddav. for MER the link to the vbox in the wiki is dead, and the Sailfish site links to an executable although I just want a virtual machine | 12:32 |
| urjaman | btw I used to use port 2222 for my own ssh tunnels -.-, that caused some WTFs with the SDK | 12:33 |
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| tbr | ikarus: https://sailfishos.org/develop-faq.html has the details on getting in through SSH | 12:33 |
| anYc | I'm reluctant to starting random binaries from the internet :) | 12:33 |
| tbr | anYc: let me look for the magic link in the sdk update ;) | 12:34 |
| ikarus | tbr: I got that far | 12:34 |
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| ikarus | the actual build, test deploy (vm/real dev), build rpm steps seem to be more of a headache | 12:36 |
| tbr | anYc: oh, look, a random bl0b on the innertubz: http://releases.sailfishos.org/sdk/repository/common/org.merproject.mersdk/ | 12:36 |
| tbr | ikarus: you said to start at adam and eve. :) | 12:37 |
| ikarus | tbr: :) | 12:37 |
| tbr | ikarus: anyway, once you are inside the mersdk vm, you cd into the mapped home directory to your sources | 12:37 |
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| tbr | ikarus: then if you want to mess around with compilers, autofoo etc, you would get yourself a sb2 shell: sb2 -t SailfishOS-armv7hl | 12:38 |
| anYc | tbr: thank you very much! I'll try it | 12:38 |
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| ikarus | tbr: and I guess mb2 -t SailfishOS-armv7hl -d "SailfishOS Emulator" deploy --pkcon allows me to throw stuff to the Emulator (or similarly any real device) | 12:45 |
| tbr | ikarus: no idea, I only scp rpms around :) | 12:46 |
| ikarus | getting tempted to teach qmake (or a less silly build system), to do this for me, it's silly that it's tied into qcreator and not qmake | 12:47 |
| ikarus | also yeah, running the build system outside of the VM is trivial, you just can't do it on non-Linux | 12:47 |
| tbr | correct | 12:48 |
| tbr | the VM is a nice way for portability and compatibility reasons | 12:49 |
| tbr | and nowadays doesn't have much overhead due to hw virtualization | 12:49 |
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| ikarus | but the dependency on qcreator for most automation of this stuff, feels ugh, well, it feels very "professional" for a HW company, they all tie all their stuff closely into their IDEs, that are all completely different and broken in so many ways | 12:50 |
| ikarus | probably QtCreator is least broken of them all, but still | 12:50 |
| tbr | I found this approach refreshingly easy to sidestep | 12:51 |
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| tbr | documented way to ssh in and all that | 12:51 |
| ikarus | tbr: it's slightly harder because the qmake/make doesn't actually include all the build env setup stuff, nor installs, etc | 12:52 |
| ikarus | Android handles this slightly better, it even includes a non-GUI way to initially setup a enviroment | 12:52 |
| ikarus | but compared to most embedded SDKs, yes | 12:53 |
| tbr | you can zypper in all you want in the target | 12:53 |
| ikarus | tbr: yes, but the build system isn't clean and straightup | 12:53 |
| tbr | and as I just showed anYc, you don't even need to install the sdk | 12:53 |
| ikarus | you need to ssh in, etc | 12:53 |
| tbr | erwhat? | 12:53 |
| ikarus | ideally you can run a single command in the source dir, without connecting to a special build enviroment, to build and perhaps one more to install it | 12:54 |
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| ikarus | it's quite a few more steps, including ones you can easily muck up with this | 12:54 |
| SK_work | pong lukedirtwalker m4g0g | 12:54 |
| tbr | *shrug* I still find this very straight forward, even compared to the confusing android SDK setups | 12:55 |
| ikarus | tbr: idk, cd path/to/application; ant debug; adb install build/foo.apk is quite simple | 12:56 |
| ikarus | but as said, I've dealt with worse SDKs, although most of those where for simpeler platforms, so bypassing them was easier | 12:56 |
| ikarus | so it sort of balances out | 12:56 |
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| m4g0g | SK_work: friends is closed source app? | 13:05 |
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| ikarus | might just condense this all into a bit of a wiki/blog bit | 13:06 |
| tbr | ikarus: if you blog about sailfish/jolla, please let me know a (filtered) feed for planet.devaamo.fi/sailfish/ | 13:08 |
| SK_work | m4g0g: no | 13:08 |
| SK_work | the sources were shown by lukedirtwalker | 13:08 |
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| SK_work | out of curiosity lbt, what did you do with this partnerspace thing ? | 14:22 |
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| lbt | it has my home-automation stuff - so when I get home I swipe it in and unlock my front door :) | 14:25 |
| lbt | nice easy access | 14:25 |
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| SK_work | :) | 14:26 |
| SK_work | that's quite an awesome usage :) | 14:27 |
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| Morpog_Jolla_ | lukedirtwalker: aaand it crashes | 14:39 |
| zGrr | Does Jolla plan to integrate SIP in sailfishos 2.0? | 14:48 |
| lukedirtwalker | Morpog_Jolla_: yay :( | 14:49 |
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| Nokius | zGrr: HOPE SO!!!!!! | 15:05 |
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| anYc | Is there a way to update the Sailfish target in the Mer SDK VM to Uitukka? | 15:30 |
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| anYc | +an easy way | 15:30 |
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| stephg | anYc: download the u9 beta sdk instead? | 15:33 |
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| anYc | yeah but it's a little bit odd that I have to download an executable while I only want a vbox image | 15:43 |
| stephg | u8 to u9 is a major change | 15:45 |
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| krnlyng | is there a way to stop the phone from rebooting if there is a kernel panic? i am testing a kernel module and when i run insmod the phone reboots, so i assume it's a kernel panic but i want to look at dmesg to see whats wrong | 15:57 |
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| krnlyng | is it because kernel.panic = 1? how do i set that to 0? | 15:59 |
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| Stskeeps | sysctl? | 16:01 |
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| javispedro | also, wouldn't android's last kmsg feature be more useful here? | 16:08 |
| javispedro | check /proc/last_kmsg immediately after it reboots | 16:09 |
| javispedro | krnlyng^^ | 16:09 |
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| anYc | if someone else is only interested in the SDK VBox: http://releases.sailfishos.org/sdk/repository-141021/common/org.merproject.mersdk/ | 16:36 |
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| sandsmark | krnlyng: tried #kernelnewbies on oftc? | 17:03 |
| sandsmark | krnlyng: and yeah, put it in /etc/sysctl.conf | 17:03 |
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| sandsmark | to make it permanent | 17:04 |
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| sandsmark | oh joy, tracker has lost all my metadata... | 17:12 |
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| Stskeeps | good thing it doesn't host your contacts as well. | 17:13 |
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| sandsmark | haha, yeah.. | 17:13 |
| Armadillo | :) | 17:13 |
| sandsmark | between this and the crappy API I don't really have much love left over for tracker :p | 17:14 |
| Armadillo | any experiences with the current qa duration? | 17:14 |
| Armadillo | mine reaches 5 days tomorrow morning :-/ | 17:14 |
| Armadillo | I should add that it includes the weekend | 17:15 |
| sandsmark | yeah, I would think that you should count "workdays" | 17:16 |
| sandsmark | https://together.jolla.com/question/50744/media-no-longer-recognising-album-info-after-update-10819/ | 17:17 |
| sandsmark | seems like I'm not the only one | 17:17 |
| Armadillo | I know, but the last 4 times it didn't took over 36 hours | 17:17 |
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| beidl | sandsmark: seems like using inotify directly would be a more reliable option for the owncloud client ;) | 17:23 |
| sandsmark | beidl: yes, that's my plan | 17:23 |
| sandsmark | qfilesystemwatcher | 17:23 |
| beidl | perfect | 17:23 |
| sandsmark | allow the user to add arbitrary folders that should be backed up to owncloud | 17:24 |
| sandsmark | just been busy the last week with some other projects | 17:24 |
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| beidl | though, actually querying tracker for files that have been added between application starts would be nice | 17:25 |
| beidl | sandsmark: no worries, I've been pretty busy myself this week :) | 17:25 |
| sandsmark | hmm, yeah | 17:25 |
| sandsmark | would probably make sense to write a daemon that always runs in the background, and communicates with the UI | 17:25 |
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| sandsmark | Stskeeps: now you really scared me, it seemed like all my contacts were gone | 17:26 |
| sandsmark | but luckily it was just slow | 17:26 |
| beidl | I've thought of that as well, it's just that I would've hoped to keep the app harbour-only | 17:26 |
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| beidl | seems like a lot of things I'd like to implement require a fork for openrepos | 17:26 |
| sandsmark | yeah.. | 17:27 |
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| beidl | not only a systemd user service but also being able to send pictures from the Gallery using a nemo-transferengine plugin | 17:28 |
| sandsmark | ah, yeah, that would be awesome | 17:28 |
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| beidl | a question to the jollasphere: is there some progress on allowing transferengine plugins and/or systemd user services in harbour? | 17:29 |
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| * beidl doesn't really want to implement just another local file browser for selecting files to upload. | 17:32 | |
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| sandsmark | yeah... | 17:33 |
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| lukedirtwalker | beidl: next community meeting should talk about this | 17:36 |
| beidl | what about a file picker daemon one could talk to via dbus + respecive qt-bindings? | 17:37 |
| SK_work | beidl: systemd = no | 17:37 |
| beidl | lukedirtwalker: I'd be glad to | 17:37 |
| beidl | SK_work: I figured that | 17:37 |
| SK_work | but there might be some "autostart" api at some point | 17:37 |
| sandsmark | what would be the difference between that and a systemd unit? | 17:37 |
| beidl | SK_work: I wonder then what would keep track of the service lifetime? | 17:38 |
| lukedirtwalker | beidl: https://together.jolla.com/question/54157/sailfishos-open-source-collaboration-meeting-planning/ | 17:38 |
| SK_work | beidl: spawn as lipsitck's children | 17:38 |
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| beidl | SK_work: seems like unnessecary duplication of functionality when systemd user sessions are there for exactly this reason. | 17:39 |
| SK_work | beidl: the problem is systemd user sessions is quite fragile | 17:39 |
| beidl | maybe lipstick could just start the service, the service doesn't have to be enabled at install time | 17:39 |
| beidl | or what about some kind of metadata type which the system could generate a minimal systemd unit out of? | 17:40 |
| sandsmark | SK_work: fragile? | 17:41 |
| SK_work | sandsmark: not robust | 17:41 |
| sandsmark | yes, but how? | 17:41 |
| sandsmark | as in not guaranteed to launch or something? | 17:41 |
| sandsmark | systemd has one job; launch stuff :D | 17:42 |
| SK_work | sandsmark: what if you mess dependencies up, and lipstick don't start ? | 17:42 |
| beidl | and it does it well from my experience :) | 17:42 |
| SK_work | it is quite easy actually | 17:42 |
| SK_work | disclaimer: no systemd flamewar here please | 17:43 |
| sandsmark | SK_work: I'm probably just not experienced enough with systemd, but wouldn't you need to edit the dependencies of lipstick, or the lipstick unit itself? | 17:43 |
| beidl | SK_work: as I said, maybe something could post-installation generate a systemd unit, without dependencies or anything, just leaf processes | 17:43 |
| sandsmark | yeah, that also makes sense | 17:44 |
| beidl | sandsmark: no, you can make a systemd unit grow a reverse-dependency | 17:44 |
| beidl | as well | 17:44 |
| SK_work | hum | 17:44 |
| sandsmark | well, yes, Before= or whatever? | 17:44 |
| beidl | sandsmark: right | 17:44 |
| SK_work | actually I would like to have systemd start daemons | 17:44 |
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| sandsmark | but I don't think that would halt the execution of what it is Before=, I think? | 17:44 |
| SK_work | but if it is not available in harbour, I'm not against any other solution | 17:44 |
| SK_work | that's all | 17:44 |
| beidl | sandsmark: it does from my experience. | 17:45 |
| sandsmark | hmm, ok | 17:46 |
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| sandsmark | just never had that happen to me, but I haven't done much non-basic stuff with it | 17:46 |
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| beidl | I'd like to brainstorm a robust solution at the next meeting | 17:47 |
| beidl | hopefully my schedule allows me to join the channel | 17:47 |
| sandsmark | well, could let QA block anything that touches lipstick or any of its dependencies in its unit :p | 17:47 |
| beidl | services don't need dependencies if the UI is guaranteed to be up :) | 17:49 |
| sandsmark | unless you somehow decide to ship multiple daemons or something | 17:49 |
| beidl | that would require additional logic in the daemons themselves, yes. | 17:50 |
| sandsmark | oh well, systemd units might be overkill, but it would be nice for systemd to automatically restart crashing services etc. | 17:50 |
| beidl | on the other hand, what use cases would be there | 17:50 |
| sandsmark | no idea, I was thinking crash-resistance | 17:53 |
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| beidl | a qmake macro to generate a minimal service file without dependencies + letting lipstick instruct systemd --user to start the service via dbus shouldn't be too complicated and repeatable | 17:56 |
| sandsmark | yup | 17:56 |
| sandsmark | it's a good idea, hopefully it will get in soon | 17:56 |
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| beidl | i hope so as well | 17:57 |
| SK_work | beidl: if it is installed correctly, you don't need lipstick to start the daemon | 17:57 |
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| beidl | SK_work: yeah, but what guarantees us it'll be installed correctly? | 17:58 |
| SK_work | beidl: nothing especially when we are not allowed to install in /usr/share/systemd | 17:58 |
| SK_work | (or something like that) | 17:59 |
| krnlyng | sandsmark: thanks, i made a script which sets kernel.panic and kernel.panic_on_oops to 0, but i am still wondering why i can't find the entries for both of them in /etc/sysctl.d/ (nor /etc/sysctl.conf) | 17:59 |
| krnlyng | maybe 1 is the default value for both | 17:59 |
| sandsmark | I think so | 17:59 |
| beidl | SK_work: systemd does start unit files from ~/.config/something IIRC | 17:59 |
| SK_work | beidl: does it ? | 17:59 |
| SK_work | then we don't need anything then :) | 18:00 |
| beidl | SK_work: ~/.config/systemd/user/ | 18:00 |
| beidl | SK_work: we would need something to disable services using a UI though | 18:00 |
| SK_work | interesting | 18:00 |
| beidl | also, I'm not sure which systemd version that was added in | 18:00 |
| SK_work | beidl: can't you try right now | 18:01 |
| SK_work | I don't have SSH on Jolla at work | 18:01 |
| SK_work | so :( | 18:01 |
| beidl | SK_work: already on it ;) | 18:01 |
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| beidl | SK_work: http://pastebin.com/hX6w5Tsh | 18:06 |
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| beidl | works, just has to be started (since I didn't explicitly enable it) | 18:07 |
| SK_work | beidl: pretty good | 18:07 |
| SK_work | I will write the UI | 18:07 |
| SK_work | :) | 18:07 |
| beidl | SK_work: niiice :D | 18:07 |
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| beidl | are you a sailor? because... having it in the settings app would be nifty :) | 18:09 |
| tbr | SK_work / beidl - note that somewhere in recent developer comms from jolla they mentioned that they wouldn't allow user services for a while in harbour "because the session was so fragile" or such. | 18:14 |
| SK_work | ah damn, indeed there is a problem | 18:15 |
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| SK_work | beidl: not a sailor,n but responsible for jolla-settings-patchmanager | 18:15 |
| SK_work | and torch | 18:15 |
| SK_work | problem = you are not allowed to write in ~/.config/systemd stuff | 18:15 |
| SK_work | :(:( | 18:15 |
| SK_work | no daemon in harbour :( | 18:15 |
| special | I expect it could be possible *if* the work is done to find a safe subset of declarations in unit files and test for them | 18:17 |
| special | getting it wrong can be subtle and catastrophic | 18:17 |
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| beidl | it would be the safest option of some trusted process (either at buildtime, installtime or runtime) generates the unit file out of a minimal set of information | 18:20 |
| beidl | s/of some/when some/ | 18:20 |
| beidl | the daemon could be installed into /usr/share/harbour-appname/daemon/ | 18:21 |
| beidl | (the daemon that should be started as part of the service) | 18:21 |
| beidl | then a trusted process could be used to write the necessary unit file to ~/.config/systemd/user | 18:22 |
| beidl | enable/disable methods available via dbus, so that app developers have a way to enable the service | 18:22 |
| beidl | and when enabling a service, the trusted daemon could check if the method was invoked either by system settings or the app itself | 18:23 |
| beidl | apps should of course only be allowed to enable their respective daemon counterparts, not those of other apps | 18:24 |
| SK_work | beidl: add this to next meeting | 18:25 |
| SK_work | this is interesting | 18:25 |
| beidl | this way we wouldn't let arbitrary apps write to ~/.config/systemd, and have a predictable way of enabling/disabling user services | 18:25 |
| beidl | SK_work: I see that on Dec 16th I probably won't be able to join :/ | 18:27 |
| beidl | my work schedule ends an hour later | 18:27 |
| SK_work | I can take it | 18:27 |
| beidl | or, with a little bit of luck, i can join in the last half hour | 18:27 |
| SK_work | beidl: harbour rules don't allow writes to .config/systemd | 18:27 |
| beidl | SK_work: I know that, that's why we need some trusted process to decide on enabling/disabling and writing to ~/.config/systemd | 18:28 |
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| SK_work | beidl: lipstick or a system daemon à la apkd | 18:29 |
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| beidl | SK_work: right. it could even be a oneshot that is started when lipstick is up. | 18:29 |
| beidl | I'd even do the work on it if there's interest in it | 18:30 |
| SK_work | there is interest | 18:31 |
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| beidl | also, this way would allow a future where sandboxing could be in place, only letting trusted daemons do decisions on session-wide settings | 18:33 |
| SK_work | sandboxing | 18:34 |
| SK_work | that's another issue | 18:34 |
| SK_work | quite important one | 18:34 |
| beidl | one which bugs me as well :) | 18:34 |
| SK_work | I was thinking of 2 options | 18:35 |
| SK_work | 1: use polkit | 18:35 |
| SK_work | 2: use selinux | 18:35 |
| SK_work | don't think 1 will work well | 18:35 |
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| beidl | I've heard SELinux is not something Jolla is interested in | 18:36 |
| beidl | (even though I like to noexecheap stuff :)) | 18:36 |
| beidl | per-app groups could work as well, just a little more complicated. then again, selinux is quite complicated also and easier to get wrong | 18:37 |
| SK_work | beidl: where did you hear that ? | 18:37 |
| SK_work | SELinux is complicated | 18:37 |
| SK_work | don't like it | 18:37 |
| Nightmare__ | https://together.jolla.com/question/9670/api-security-model/ <- abandoned since may | 18:37 |
| beidl | SK_work: people :) | 18:37 |
| SK_work | polkit is simple, like it | 18:37 |
| SK_work | but maybe not secure enough | 18:37 |
| Nightmare__ | https://together.jolla.com/question/27076/roundtable-discussion-application-security/ <- nothing new since Feb. | 18:38 |
| SK_work | interesting discussions | 18:38 |
| beidl | time to wake people up again on that topic | 18:38 |
| Nightmare__ | there are some interesstint topics on j2g but they get lost a few weeks after creation | 18:39 |
| beidl | especially in a tablet world this is importand. families with only one tablet per house, sharing the tablet between family members. | 18:39 |
| SK_work | hum interesting the different uid + polkit thing | 18:39 |
| beidl | pretty much what I envisioned with trusted daemons | 18:40 |
| beidl | it's like we have all the puzzle pieces to build it, we're just not looking at it | 18:40 |
| SK_work | I would like to build the containers thingie | 18:41 |
| SK_work | don't know how to do this though | 18:41 |
| beidl | SK_work: containers as in "docker"? | 18:42 |
| SK_work | either as docker or as chroot | 18:42 |
| beidl | way too much overhead | 18:42 |
| SK_work | or as running as different uid | 18:42 |
| SK_work | just for containing the app | 18:42 |
| beidl | though namespacing would be nifty | 18:42 |
| SK_work | that's all | 18:42 |
| SK_work | namespace ? | 18:42 |
| SK_work | can you highlight me a bit on this | 18:42 |
| SK_work | what I actuallyw ant is to build a proof of cocnept | 18:42 |
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| beidl | SK_work: http://lwn.net/Articles/531114/ | 18:49 |
| SK_work | beidl: interesting | 18:50 |
| SK_work | time to go and experiment :) | 18:50 |
| SK_work | thanks | 18:50 |
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| beidl | if people could give me input on my proposal (and if there's even interest by Jolla) I'd like to take notes on something like etherpad | 19:10 |
| beidl | just in case I really won't be able to join the IRC on the 16th | 19:11 |
| beidl | (talking about user services) | 19:11 |
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| beidl | SK_work sandsmark special any ideas? http://pastebin.com/YqEZGxBG | 20:56 |
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| kimmoli | grr... seems that toh-daemon needs to be a system service to get it started by udev-rules during boot. | 21:41 |
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| javispedro | it always surprises me how stupid the level of integration between systemd-udev and systemd itself is | 21:42 |
| dr_gogeta86 | night guys | 21:43 |
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| javispedro | why can't you just After=udev:devices/whatever or something like that | 21:43 |
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| kimmoli | i think it has something do with nemo being not there when udev rule is triggered for toh-eeprom | 21:57 |
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| javispedro | you could make a fake system-level unit that is just started when the udev rule triggers (and stopped too) | 22:07 |
| javispedro | and then make the user level unit file depend on the system service | 22:07 |
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| javispedro | (though I'm not sure if you actually can depend on a system service...) | 22:09 |
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| kimmoli | dunno. anyway the daemon needs to suid, so it makes little difference running it as system- or user-service. only need to pass few environment variables to it when system-service. | 22:21 |
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