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| AL13N | if i have a list of items that each item goes to a next page, do i need to make a Flickable inside the delegate Item? | 06:56 |
| AL13N | or how can i get a row visible for flicking? | 06:56 |
| AL13N | (much like the settings) | 06:56 |
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| AL13N | i'm new to QML, i have a page with a ListView ( a model) and a page with ListDetail... how can i, in the ListDetail page, access the ListModel (or at least the current item?) | 08:41 |
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| BearT | @AAL13N: define a property in the detail page and use the stack.push(url, property) syntax, to propagate the current item to the next page | 10:02 |
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| AL13N | BearT: O_o that's nice | 10:05 |
| AL13N | btw: why is everything on my QML page pasted on top of eachother instead of neatly in rows? | 10:05 |
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| walokra | it depends which components you use | 10:08 |
| BearT | cause it is aligned with the parent element. see http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/qml-positioning-elements.html | 10:10 |
| AL13N | http://pastebin.com/fSzE40z4 , http://pastebin.com/D82MuNSW , http://pastebin.com/5vY4gY9K | 10:12 |
| AL13N | this is what i'm starting with | 10:12 |
| AL13N | i get: TypeError: Cannot read property 'service' of undefined | 10:13 |
| * AL13N goes to read link | 10:13 | |
| AL13N | ah, i get it | 10:14 |
| AL13N | i should use a column element with Row in it? | 10:14 |
| AL13N | or maybe not have rows at all | 10:14 |
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| AL13N | 3rd one is now http://pastebin.com/KKtgYy3x | 10:17 |
| AL13N | positioning is better | 10:17 |
| AL13N | BearT: since trying the stack.push(url, property) syntax, i get "TypeError: Cannot read property 'service' of undefined" | 10:17 |
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| BearT | I'd assume your problem is that property is of type variant and not of your actual type. I'm by no means an expert in QML and all my types come from C++. so my property looks something like this: | 10:23 |
| BearT | property MyCppType item: null | 10:23 |
| BearT | and in the onClick i call a c++ function that gives me a pointer to an object of MyCppType | 10:23 |
| BearT | i don't know how to extract the actual data item in qml using only qml and js | 10:24 |
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| AL13N | BearT: but, afaiu, stack.push(url,property) sets a property on the url? or just has a property accessible? or? | 10:28 |
| Sviox | What's the correct/best UI pattern for creating a page which acts like a sheet in Harmattan? In my case, it contains a multi-selectable-list. For example. how should I place a 'Select' button? ListView context menu? DockedPanel that is shown after selecting an item? Pulldown menu? | 10:34 |
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| AL13N | aah, i get it, it's a propertymap | 10:34 |
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| Hartzi | I have ListElements including geocoordinates in a ListModel. What is the best way to add something onto a map based on those coordinates? | 11:08 |
| Hartzi | Is there any nice solution for that or should I just use a ordinary for-loop for that? :P | 11:09 |
| artemma | Hartzi: well, if you want to process *whole list of whatever*, that's what for-loop is for :) | 11:11 |
| artemma | ListModel is cool when you want something to happen based on which element is in focus, in screen viewport, far from viewport, etc | 11:11 |
| Hartzi | artemma: okay, thanks. | 11:13 |
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| lbt | in C++ or javascript ? | 11:16 |
| Hartzi | can I define coordinates like this in ListElements; taskCoordinate: {61.450; 23.860} or should I define them just lat:23 and long:32 | 11:17 |
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| Hartzi | lbt: qml | 11:17 |
| attah | lbt: what you are comfortable with.. and if you need any libs that usually settles it one way or another.. | 11:18 |
| lbt | ok... was going to mention the C++ iterator classes in Qt | 11:18 |
| Hartzi | :D | 11:18 |
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| lbt | attah: yep - it's so easy to mix in C++ I seem to do that more often | 11:19 |
| attah | yep.. imho i think qml and c++ is the perfect combination of high-level and low-level expressiveness.. (and qt libs for som in-between parts) | 11:21 |
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| * artemma used a triple combo in quick launcher: external c++ lib cut out from nemo lipstick, own engine lib for c++ wrapper on top, QML for UI - feels good | 11:22 | |
| attah | artemma: what is this quicklauncer i keep hearing about? :) | 11:23 |
| artemma | attah: that's surprising, I think I mentioned it first time yesterday night :) | 11:23 |
| artemma | http://bit.ly/quicklauncher2 | 11:23 |
| * attah has awesome skills at irc lurking | 11:23 | |
| artemma | in harbour QA now. Unless I messed up with something will probably be in app store on Monday-Tuesday | 11:24 |
| artemma | it's, well, a quick launcher as you would imagine in :) | 11:24 |
| artemma | A search bar on top, filtered list of apps below | 11:24 |
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| artemma | starts ASAP, quits when launched wanted app | 11:24 |
| artemma | and sure has a Search-like looking icon! :) | 11:24 |
| attah | neat.. although i think i should have a few more apps before it becomes really useful for me :) | 11:27 |
| * artemma has four screens already | 11:27 | |
| artemma | actually I really wonder about a typical limit when things like quick launcher start being really useful | 11:28 |
| attah | when (if?) widget support comes to the lockscreen this could be even nicer | 11:28 |
| * artemma needs to adjust mixpanel stats gathering to make it less intrusive and actually collect the numbers | 11:28 | |
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| artemma | IMHO widget support is not even close to reality, nothing about it I remember from Together | 11:29 |
| attah | probably.. but one can wish | 11:29 |
| artemma | though exactly specifically Search bar could have it's place if Jolla figures where to put it | 11:29 |
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| attah | as long as i can fit what i usually use on one page.. i think i won't be a frequent user | 11:29 |
| Sviox | How can I detect that a QML window has been closed by the user? The QQuickView does not seem to emit destroyed at the time. | 11:30 |
| attah | artemma: btw.. configurabe cover actions for getting to a user defined filtered subset of ones apps, how about it? | 11:31 |
| artemma | attah: I was thinking about it, but.. then I decided to focus on the old-google-way: get out of the way as soon as possible, so cover shouldn't matter at all and launcher should exit ASAP when it did its thing | 11:32 |
| artemma | what I *might* do is tabs inside app (with left-right swiping) to get to such defined sets. Still need to think if it brings any speed-convenience over just typing two letters from app name though | 11:33 |
| attah | true.. i tend to be a typer anyway.. so never mind :) | 11:34 |
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| artemma | the only meaningful case I could come up with so far is to have an "autostart" list this way. You visit it after a phone reboot and it starts all apps you want to run in the background at all times: Whatsapp, facebook, tweetian, etc | 11:34 |
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| artemma | maybe without android ones until Jolla makes it it possible to run several android and native apps simultaneously (if ever) | 11:35 |
| attah | now that's interesting :) | 11:35 |
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| attah | has anyone tried messing with QtDocGallery? | 11:37 |
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| coderus | Sviox: you need to know if process killed or closed? | 11:40 |
| artemma | attah: I believe QtDocGallery is not allowed in harbour | 11:41 |
| artemma | didn't check the latest allowed list though | 11:41 |
| artemma | don't ask why Jolla's examples use it :) | 11:42 |
| attah | that's true.. but it's bound to be pretty soon, partly because of that.. and because it's pretty central.. | 11:42 |
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| * artemma is too lazy to request it and I don't think anybody else cared to do it either. So I'd guess relevant Jolla ppl don't even know it's missing/wanted :) | 11:43 | |
| attah | hmm... that's a scary thought | 11:43 |
| attah | i have been thinking that because it's being ported from qtmobility it's not quite stable yet.. and will become ok when that happens | 11:44 |
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| attah | i wonder who would know.. | 11:48 |
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| Sviox | coderus: process is and should be very well alive. I only need to detect when application window is closed | 11:50 |
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| coderus | Sviox: watch for QEvent::windowClosed or so | 11:53 |
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| corsair | Hello, where can I found kernel sources for kernel running in mersdk/mer.vdi image? I would like to add 9p filesystem in order to be able to have shared folders in qemu running the image. | 11:54 |
| corsair | *find | 11:54 |
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| leszek | hi | 12:03 |
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| tbr | corsair: should be all on OBS | 12:11 |
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| attah | How do i find out which things a theme provides.. like sizes and images? i can't find it in the docs :( | 12:13 |
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| corsair | tbr: thanks, will look it up | 12:15 |
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| tbr | corsair: https://build.merproject.org/project/list_public nemo hw 486 or 586 probably | 12:18 |
| corsair | tbr: Yup, thanks! | 12:18 |
| AL13N | btw: when i manually run qmlscene with the qml pages, sometimes after exiting the app, the process doesn't end | 12:18 |
| AL13N | also, i have a ListView Item that is pushing a page on to the stack, but when holding the item down, the height is too small for the SwitchText it contains | 12:21 |
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| AL13N | how can i make it so that it's contained? | 12:22 |
| AL13N | http://pastebin.com/cBaGyBxc | 12:23 |
| AL13N | what am i doing wrong wrt height? | 12:23 |
| M4rtinK | AL13N: check your cover | 12:24 |
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| M4rtinK | AL13N: turns out that when it does not load, the application does not exit when closed | 12:24 |
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| M4rtinK | AL13N: https://together.jolla.com/question/16518/bug-if-cover-element-fails-to-load-application-doesnt-exit-when-closed/ | 12:25 |
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| AL13N | ic | 12:34 |
| AL13N | M4rtinK: is this related to this warning: 'DeclarativeCoverWindow: You should be calling QQuickWindow::setDefaultAlphaBuffer(true) before creating windows. Failing to do so will result in suboptimal performance. | 12:35 |
| AL13N | DeclarativeCoverWindow: You also won't have cover transparency.' | 12:35 |
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| davion | Hi. Guys do you know how to solve this issue? ":-1: error: SailfishOS Emulator: Private key file error: The system cannot find the path specified." | 12:40 |
| davion | I get this after sailfish sdk reinstall | 12:41 |
| attah | anyone understand the syntax of these macros? QT_GALLERY_ITEM_PROPERTY | 12:45 |
| attah | (particularly the part of what appears to be nested references) | 12:45 |
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| AL13N | davion: i thought for update the old needed to be removed completely | 12:50 |
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| BearT | I'm stuck now when parsing utf-8 xml files. the xml codec is set to UTF-8, the file is stored as utf-8 (file -bi gives application/xml; charset=utf-8), the XmlStreamReader.documentEncoding() reads UTF-8 correctly and when viewing the file with less via ssh everything shows fine. | 13:17 |
| BearT | but when parsing the file and writing the QStrings with qDebug() the otherwise perfectly well read 'é' gets converted to '?'. | 13:17 |
| BearT | Anyone has an idea where I might have mixed up the codecs when the file is obviously ok when checking per ssh and OS tools? | 13:17 |
| Sviox | Are you sure the content is in utf-8? | 13:18 |
| BearT | as sure as i can be. the file is downloaded via http and sent as utf-8 and the character in question can be read on the system via ssh without any problems | 13:19 |
| Sviox | Also, have you tried QXmlSimpleReader+QXmlInputSource? I like that combo for XML file parsing. | 13:19 |
| AL13N | is Qstring actually utf-8? or qDebug() might not be | 13:20 |
| BearT | nope, just used the XmlStreamReader until now. I'll try the simplereader | 13:20 |
| AL13N | are there any widechar complements? | 13:20 |
| BearT | I'm working on the sailfish dev VM so I'm assuming utf-8 as default. i did not specify any codecs for Qstring or qdebug (if that is even possible). | 13:22 |
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| BearT | ok, simply using QXmlInputSource and printing the .data() to qDebug() gives the same result. so either the file is wrong, even though all cmd line tools indicate it's ok, or qDebug() does not consider the encoding. I think I'll try to send a string back into qml and see what's displayed there | 13:41 |
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| M4rtinK | is it just me or is $XDG_CONFIG_HOME & co just not set ? | 13:57 |
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| M4rtinK | echo $XDG_CONFIG_HOME returns nothing | 13:57 |
| M4rtinK | or is it for some reason set by that sailfish app launcher ? | 13:58 |
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| Aard | M4rtinK: it's not set, as we're using the default value | 14:01 |
| Aard | M4rtinK: applications are supposed to use a default value of ~/.config if the variable is empty/unset. if you use qt it'll automatically do the right thing for you | 14:02 |
| M4rtinK | Aard: well, the ordinary $HOME is set | 14:04 |
| M4rtinK | Aard: and I remember reading something about not hardcoding paths on the ML | 14:04 |
| Aard | M4rtinK: I didn't say that you should hardcode it. :) | 14:05 |
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| Aard | you are supposed to check for the variable, and fall back for ~/.config | 14:05 |
| Aard | if you use qt it already does that part for you. | 14:06 |
| M4rtinK | sure, that Qt standard paths stuff | 14:08 |
| BearT | Sviox + AL13N: thx for your suggestions. it seems to be a problem in qDebug. the é shows correctly when signaled to a qml page. | 14:08 |
| BearT | I don't understand why QString stores the encoding when it's not correctly converted using qDebug() << someQString; but as long as i know that i can ignore it | 14:08 |
| M4rtinK | but IIRC that's a C++ only interface and I'm trying to work without that | 14:08 |
| M4rtinK | keeping it QML & Python only for the time being | 14:08 |
| Aard | M4rtinK: in that case you need to do as I described | 14:08 |
| M4rtinK | Aard: sure, just wanted to clarify :) | 14:09 |
| Aard | M4rtinK: http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html | 14:09 |
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| M4rtinK | Aard: and what about $XDG_CACHE_HOME and $XDG_DATA_HOME ? | 14:11 |
| M4rtinK | ~/.cache ~/.data ? | 14:11 |
| suy | first yes, second I think is ~/.local/share | 14:11 |
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| suy | Is in the spec anyway. And you should not use that directly. If you are using python, then python probably has it. Or the qt binding | 14:12 |
| suy | If $XDG_DATA_HOME is either not set or empty, a default equal to $HOME/.local/share should be used. << from the spec | 14:13 |
| M4rtinK | yep, going to do just that | 14:14 |
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| M4rtinK | I really think this should be added to the Harbour FAQ | 14:18 |
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| M4rtinK | or else people will just use the empty variables directly and create the folders in $PWD as a result | 14:19 |
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| VesimN9 | hello | 15:39 |
| VesimN9 | can someone compile communi for sailfish? | 15:42 |
| kaltsi | M4rtinK: if the harbour faq is missing something essential, can you write about it in devel mailing list or together.j.c with harbour and sdk tags.. it might get lost if it's just here | 15:42 |
| M4rtinK | kaltsi: yeah, thats a good point | 15:43 |
| jpnurmi | VesimN9: are you having troubles building it yourself, or just want to have a package? | 15:43 |
| M4rtinK | kaltsi: I'll probably do a post to TJC later today | 15:43 |
| kaltsi | M4rtinK: good, thanks | 15:43 |
| M4rtinK | np :) | 15:44 |
| VesimN9 | jpnurmi: my computer is broken | 15:44 |
| jpnurmi | VesimN9: here's a fresh one: http://jpnurmi.kapsi.fi/harbour-communi-0.1-f6f7953.armv7hl.rpm | 15:44 |
| VesimN9 | thx | 15:44 |
| jpnurmi | np | 15:44 |
| kaltsi | is that a git sha in the release number? | 15:45 |
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| jpnurmi | nah, that package just for testing :p | 15:45 |
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| kaltsi | :) | 15:45 |
| jpnurmi | shouldn't have posted it in public :> | 15:45 |
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| coderus | is there are way to get background image region with applied ambiance blur? | 17:04 |
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| merlin1991 | tbr: regarding chum, I want to provide a pyotherside based packge via chum, but are you going to link python3 + pyotherside there and whatabout python modules, ie my package would use the python requests library which preferable would be shipped as it's own package ... | 17:10 |
| tbr | merlin1991: yes, necessary dependencies would be pulled in from Mer/Nemo if they are not in Sailfish | 17:11 |
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| merlin1991 | is python3 already part of mer/nemo? | 17:11 |
| tbr | and if there is need for an additonal library, then it should be an own package | 17:11 |
| merlin1991 | last time I checked there was only the repo from thp | 17:12 |
| tbr | hmm | 17:12 |
| tbr | well then from there, although then it should be reviewed that we don't produce collisions with a 2.x python etc | 17:12 |
| merlin1991 | but in general when I have a library (in this case python based) I need that is not part of mer/nemo I can get it into chum? | 17:13 |
| merlin1991 | also how's the on device client coming along? iirc somebody said that there is one getting created | 17:15 |
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| tbr | merlin1991: yes, you can get dependencies in, that's part of the whole idea. :) | 17:41 |
| tbr | merlin1991: client remains to be seen, so far Jolla doesn't seem to be giving a flying f* about it (aside from lbt being kind enough to set up the repository) and I'm alone and certainly won't be able to do this myself | 17:42 |
| lbt | tbr: nah, I've been given the OK to spend some work time on it - just a matter of finding some now | 17:43 |
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| tbr | lbt: but you're just the OBS-guy in this context. I'm honestly disturbed as to seeing it completely ignored by Jolla, no sailors I've talked to were aware of it. Also there is no movement whatsoever on TJO regarding my related question. | 17:45 |
| lbt | which ? | 17:46 |
| tbr | You'd think a company that is constantly busy to mention its open source roots would actually give at least a little bit more of a fuck about building an open source app community | 17:46 |
| tbr | https://together.jolla.com/question/13605/visible-open-source-app-community-supported-by-jolla/ | 17:46 |
| lbt | well, don't forget there is no "company" in this area ... just a collection of sailors | 17:47 |
| tbr | s/company/marauding bunch of sailors/ | 17:47 |
| lbt | the problem is that individual sailors aren't doing anything ... | 17:47 |
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| tbr | which is exactly the problem and shouldn't be my task to fix | 17:48 |
| lbt | well, it's a community task isn't it? | 17:49 |
| tbr | and if I get one of those "oh well the community will figure it out" non answers, I swear to god I'll let the jolla open source apps ship go down with open-brickmydevice-repos all together | 17:49 |
| lbt | if the community wants openrepos... then should it be blocked if some people don't like the downsides? | 17:50 |
| tbr | because that's what the 'community' seems to be pushing for | 17:50 |
| tbr | one-click-rpm-hosting for easy device damage | 17:50 |
| lbt | I think openrepos sucks - you know that | 17:50 |
| lbt | I think people don't understand why though | 17:50 |
| tbr | it should not be blocked | 17:50 |
| lbt | indeed | 17:50 |
| tbr | but Jolla should at least be arsed to point in a sensible direction | 17:51 |
| lbt | and I started to write an app for chum but got sidetracked | 17:51 |
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| tbr | because right now jolla is not doing anyfrigginthing, which just feeds openrepos as 'thething' | 17:51 |
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| lbt | yup | 17:51 |
| lbt | I'm stretched too thin though | 17:51 |
| tbr | as said, this is not about you and you should not take this personally | 17:52 |
| lbt | I'm not :) | 17:52 |
| lbt | but yeah - next week I'll do some more work on the app | 17:52 |
| tbr | This should have been taken care of by developer relations or whatever the outward facying $fancy_title, _BEFORE_ launch | 17:52 |
| lbt | well, it would have been nice, yes | 17:53 |
| tbr | well, jolla gets to deal with the fallout, yes | 17:53 |
| lbt | but just look how close we were to hittng pre-xmas shipping target - there's not been much wiggle room for things like that | 17:54 |
| tbr | if of course it can be even arsed to do that. It's of course possible that they have given up on the app story all together | 17:54 |
| lbt | nope - lots of movement on the app story internally | 17:54 |
| lbt | however security in this area is hard | 17:54 |
| lbt | and it's clearly not designed in | 17:54 |
| lbt | which is why the app store has limitations | 17:55 |
| tbr | I'm going to godwin this with full prejudice. I really hope the automated nazi-qa relaxes a LOT for the official store, but that's a whole different story | 17:55 |
| lbt | well, how can it ? | 17:55 |
| lbt | lets say you install an app which Requires glibc==current? | 17:55 |
| tbr | as you said there are people working on things | 17:55 |
| lbt | what happens during an OS update? | 17:56 |
| lbt | this is the same problem we all understood in MeeGo times | 17:56 |
| lbt | so the official app store has to ensure apps don't screw up normal users | 17:57 |
| mornfall | well, the problem with openrepos is that there's a huge delay with harbour, and the store app is pretty clunky | 17:57 |
| lbt | agreed | 17:58 |
| mornfall | so openrepos is the best fix we have so far | 17:58 |
| lbt | mornfall: yeah - but it is completely insecure | 17:58 |
| tbr | the problem is though, that open repos is on the extreme other end of the spectrum | 17:58 |
| tbr | 0-QA | 17:58 |
| tbr | it already severely damaged several OS installations on devices | 17:59 |
| suosaaski | not that I would have been following the topic at hand very closely, but what is the problem? Is it only developer related, or do normal users need to know anything about it? | 17:59 |
| mornfall | tbr: a tiny community like this cannot easily support any QA effort, I'm afraid | 17:59 |
| lbt | suosaaski: essentially it gives anyone from software professional down to script-kiddy root access to your device | 18:00 |
| tbr | mornfall: actually it can. The concept for AppsForMeego was quite scaleable, just executed badly due to premature end of Meego | 18:00 |
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| mornfall | tbr: I mean at this point, eventually the community will become large enough I guess | 18:00 |
| tbr | mornfall: also with BOSS being further down the road now, automated checks are possible | 18:00 |
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| lbt | I need some RoR or django people to work with me | 18:01 |
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| mornfall | tbr: but the entire openrepos "situation" exists because of a market vacuum left by harbour | 18:01 |
| lbt | but it's a fair-sized job | 18:01 |
| tbr | TBH, I'd probably want that pkcon outright would refuse to install RPMs that have e.g. preinst/postinst scripts | 18:01 |
| lbt | tbr: +1 | 18:01 |
| tbr | as that would move the check from store to device | 18:01 |
| slate | /win 9 | 18:02 |
| slate | aergh. | 18:02 |
| tbr | /lose 8 | 18:02 |
| slate | Sorry. | 18:02 |
| lbt | hehe | 18:02 |
| tbr | mornfall: not only harbour. Chum and the open source app story should have been supported more by Jolla | 18:03 |
| mornfall | tbr: well, most if not all automated QA checks could run on the device when installing from 3rd-party repos | 18:03 |
| lbt | actually it went further than that | 18:03 |
| attah | refuse sounds a bit harsh.. warn and display said scripts maybe? and possibly be dev-mode only? | 18:03 |
| lbt | the meego QA allowed community test teams and that kind of thing | 18:03 |
| tbr | mornfall: I actually spent a fair amount of hours of my _private_ time and actually also additional travel expenses to give OBS/Sailfish workshops/introductions | 18:03 |
| smokex | something like the arch aur then? | 18:04 |
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| attah | I'm still hoping for qt-uplift and a decent increase in supported libs in the january update.. but maybe that's naïve... | 18:05 |
| mornfall | tbr: but then, as long as the store accepts binary-only uploads, no amount of QA can ensure that the package is not malicious | 18:06 |
| tbr | mornfall: yes, but that's no longer on a uid=0 level | 18:07 |
| tbr | preinst I can just 'dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/emmc bs=10M' and you can kiss your jolla goodbye | 18:07 |
| smokex | ouch | 18:08 |
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| mornfall | tbr: but that's about the only difference... you can still steal all the data you want as uid=nemo | 18:09 |
| mornfall | and really, bricking devices isn't going to do much good to anyone | 18:09 |
| mornfall | so there isn't much of a market for that... for your data? more likely | 18:10 |
| tbr | mornfall: ok, a bit more elaborate. I can reroute _all_ traffic by changing the OS as root. | 18:12 |
| mornfall | tbr: well, ssu and pkcon together give you a local root exploit for all it's worth anyway | 18:14 |
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| tbr | mornfall: can an app elevate by just executing ssu? | 18:15 |
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| mornfall | tbr: no, it'd need to addrepo and pkcon install an setuid helper | 18:16 |
| lbt | that needs changing | 18:17 |
| tbr | mmm, interesting vector | 18:17 |
| mornfall | but then it can put everything back, hide the helper and pretend nothing's up | 18:17 |
| tbr | ssu might want to allow some of those things only as root | 18:17 |
| lbt | it's one reason we don't allow any pkgmgmt apps in harbour yet | 18:17 |
| mornfall | perfect for a timebombed malware | 18:18 |
| mornfall | tbr: pkcon install-local has a similar problem, you can even stego the malicious rpm into your binary and pkcon install-local it | 18:19 |
| tbr | that's why you'd usually not allow a package manager to run as anything but uid=0 | 18:19 |
| mornfall | lbt: package management or not, a binary could do all those things, say on 1st of May to not raise any suspicion with QA now | 18:20 |
| tbr | with some 'safe' and limited frontend as uid!=0 | 18:20 |
| lbt | mornfall: yes, it could | 18:20 |
| mornfall | we are basically helpless here, and even if the uid=0 problem is fixed, it doesn't actually address the real problem | 18:21 |
| smokex | jolla would have to build every package themselves from supplied sources to avoid this | 18:21 |
| mornfall | smokex: even then, the sources would need serious scrutiny... | 18:22 |
| smokex | just like every linux desktop distribution does yes | 18:22 |
| tbr | but that's actually the problem for every ecosystem out there | 18:22 |
| mornfall | smokex: you can't submit to most distros anonymously | 18:22 |
| mornfall | smokex: and distros take packaging info, not sources... any patches in the distro metadata are going to raise suspicion | 18:23 |
| smokex | you can submit to jolla anonymously? | 18:23 |
| mornfall | this is entirely different | 18:23 |
| tbr | neither can google play, iOS store, WP marketplace prevent most of that, they all only mitigate by some sort of privilege model | 18:23 |
| smokex | ^ | 18:24 |
| mornfall | tbr: well, if you aspire to be like android, you shouldn't have even started :-P | 18:24 |
| smokex | run every app from a sandbox | 18:24 |
| lbt | that makes sense | 18:25 |
| tbr | that helps a lot, but you still need access to many things, and apis | 18:25 |
| tbr | e.g. images, music, contacts, etc | 18:25 |
| mornfall | and at least on android, you don't get to upload binaries, just bytecode which goes through restricted APIs | 18:25 |
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| tbr | android has NDK so native binaries too AFAIU | 18:25 |
| mornfall | so android already runs everything in a sandbox, and malware needs to sneak the permission grant by the user | 18:26 |
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| smokex | which is pretty easy | 18:27 |
| mornfall | smokex: partly because of the silly model they use... | 18:27 |
| smokex | people grow accustomed to just hitting ok after they've seen that dialog 200 times | 18:27 |
| mornfall | but yes, android is a security swiss cheese | 18:28 |
| mornfall | we don't need another :-) | 18:28 |
| M4rtinK | mornfall: +1 | 18:29 |
| mornfall | smokex: about sandboxing, if you do have an enforceable sandbox toolkit (selinux, apparmor, something like that), Jolla QA can ship a policy with each app that permits it to do things they observed it does need and correspond to things the app claims on the tin... | 18:30 |
| smokex | I prefer apparmor | 18:31 |
| mornfall | smokex: if your fancy clock widget decides to upload your cookies a year later, it'll run into the cage | 18:31 |
| smokex | yeah | 18:31 |
| smokex | now that works | 18:32 |
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| mornfall | but that assumes apparmor or some other *enforceable* sandbox | 18:32 |
| mornfall | which is in itself a nontrivial effort to get into mer/sailfish/whatever | 18:33 |
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| smokex | if its left up to the end user, permissions could be snuck by the user 70% of the time but that's not the case for jolla QA | 18:33 |
| smokex | it does add quite a bit of extra work for them though | 18:33 |
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| mornfall | it's not a silver bullet, but it is a compromise | 18:34 |
| smokex | unless the app which sends the cookies needs the permissions necessary to send them already in its basic functionality | 18:34 |
| mornfall | smokex: like a web browser, yes :) | 18:35 |
| smokex | :) | 18:35 |
| mornfall | also it depends on how fine-grained your policy/sandbox is | 18:35 |
| mornfall | most apps could live with a restricted set of domains they get permission to connect to | 18:35 |
| mornfall | and of course, browsers shouldn't need to see each other's cookies either | 18:36 |
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| mornfall | so a malicious browser can expose what you type into it but not what you type into the official one | 18:36 |
| smokex | didn't google chrome have some kind of spyware capability built in | 18:36 |
| mornfall | but security is *hard* | 18:36 |
| mornfall | so I'm really curious as to what Jolla comes up with | 18:37 |
| smokex | I think some of these problems are the reason why Qt had such a problem being compliant with the IOS app store | 18:39 |
| smokex | their policy on 3rd party libraries/interpreters | 18:39 |
| smokex | Qt Quick 2 | 18:40 |
| suy | their policy is against executable regions of memory, if I understood correctly. IOW, something like V8, or any JIT is out | 18:42 |
| BearT | is there a source out there (yes, i googled) or someone willing to explain the FirstPage{} magic in a default sailfish qml project? renaming FirstPage.qml seems to work, but I don't understand what's actually going on | 18:45 |
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| jake9xx | BearT: nope, it's just a filename that is linked to the main qml file via pagestack | 18:46 |
| jake9xx | FirstPage{} instantiates an item that can be found from the used directory | 18:47 |
| jake9xx | qml is full of those idioms, i.e. you have Button.qml and you instantiate it as Button {...} | 18:47 |
| BearT | so if i call my firstpage.qml somename.qml it would be ok to write SomeName{} | 18:48 |
| jake9xx | try it out ;) | 18:48 |
| BearT | i did and it failed. that's why i was asking | 18:49 |
| suy | BearT: yes, but be careful. The QML language has some conventions. For example, you can't use lowercase for the first letter of an "element". | 18:49 |
| BearT | i mean, it build, but the initial page was blank on the emulator | 18:49 |
| suy | BearT: an the warning in the console is? | 18:50 |
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| BearT | suy: "Component elements may not contain properties other than id" | 18:51 |
| BearT | so if i geht your explanations correctly lowercase is reserverd for properties and i should call my file simply MyFile instead of my_file. | 18:51 |
| jake9xx | yes | 18:52 |
| jake9xx | so if you have foo.qml and you instantiate object there as Bar{}.. QML expects to find Bar.qml file in the location you run foo.qml | 18:52 |
| jake9xx | BearT: in qtc, if you need magic of some item, hover on top of it in qtc and press F2 | 18:53 |
| BearT | thanks to you all. i really need to read about all those conventions in qml. | 18:54 |
| jake9xx | sure, happy hacking fellow sailor | 18:55 |
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| Custodian | tbr: lbt: mornfall: all openrepos is not about "installing open-brickmydevice-repos packages", but about one-click install AND reciving updates, when applications have any new updates available. Yes, zero-QA atm, but now rpm-verifier released, so any extra info can be provided. You dont install any-and-all applications. you install only by references like 'hey, there is an app for 'subj', | 19:27 |
| Custodian | it works well for me, go get it there' or apps from certain developers, with positive(your own) trust level, or with good rating. If there will be application which damages your phone, there will be comments: "dont install! it killed my phone!", application will be downrated (do you really install apps with 1 star rating?), and all will know, that you should not trust this developer. | 19:27 |
| Custodian | tbr: lbt: mornfall: Main goal of Openrepos was to replace MeegoOBS repos, and now - currently shutdowned ovi.store for harmattan. But devs asked me to create sailfish and nemomobile targets as well. Since there is vacuum for "put your app here, install this way, and users can test and get updates when you fix your app based on feedback", devs use it. OpenRepos is not Open = "Opensource", | 19:27 |
| Custodian | it is Open = "Everyone welcome". Not only foss apps, any kind of apps. | 19:27 |
| Custodian | tbr: lbt: mornfall: Chum is great. But what will you do with packages, that should replace default system components, like harmattan unrestricted-system-ui? If you provide qa, and going to be compatible, you cannot accept such packages, since they "break" base system. And still, devs will need a place where to place such things, for tests, updates, and so on. | 19:27 |
| * lbt reads | 19:28 | |
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| lbt | Custodian: I don't think openrepos is intending to make it easy to cause device update problems | 19:31 |
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| lbt | and I accept that devs in the community want a way to ship rpms which harbour doesn't allow | 19:32 |
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| lbt | I don't think it's quite a meego OBS repos replacement - that had a source->binary trail and were visible to the community | 19:32 |
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| Custodian | lbt: device update problem can be caused by any rpm. if developer releases such rpm, it will break update regardless of the installation method. OBS replacement - for repos where you can get updated apps | 19:33 |
| lbt | anywhere offering unvalidated closed binary uploads for devices is taking a huge risk with someone elses device | 19:34 |
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| lbt | *nod* ... just reading and throwing up immediate reactions so we can talk :) | 19:34 |
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| tbr | Custodian: I'm not seeing chum as the 'fix all' solution, it's a part in the puzzle. | 19:35 |
| lbt | as for replacing system components - I don't think that's a chum role - but the (Mer) community OBS will allow that trivially | 19:35 |
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| lbt | I'd be happy to see chum repos made available through a responsible store front too | 19:35 |
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| lbt | my definition of responsible may be quite conservative though :D | 19:36 |
| tbr | exactly, you could have a more risk repository for the 'adventurous' | 19:36 |
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| Custodian | unvalidated closed sourced apps are the problem for any store. even for official, as you dont know app talking-back-home for stats, or for getting signal, and transfer/damage phone data. | 19:36 |
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| lbt | tbr: I'd be less than thrilled having a QA'ed community repo alongside an 'any uploaded binary' repo | 19:37 |
| slate | hmm, adding a 3rd party repo and doing dist-upgrade also deleted the phone app in harmattan didn't it? | 19:37 |
| Custodian | i'm already working on attention sign about 'adventurous' ;) | 19:37 |
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| tbr | lbt: that chance might very well have passed due to jolla's inertia though, just saying. | 19:37 |
| lbt | Custodian: yes - and jolla both takes the risk *and* is responsible for resolving issues in their store. What's the openrepos support policy | 19:37 |
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| lbt | (I'd say the same about nokia/intel to btw) | 19:38 |
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| Custodian | lbt: provide help with issue resolution, and maybe deal with problem package. I bet that jolla does not take the risk. have you read the terms of use/service ? | 19:39 |
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| lbt | I suspect there is a legal disclaimer .. but twitter tends not to respect them :) | 19:40 |
| Custodian | If I upload package that delete everything what uid=nemo can delete, when remote server will return 404 for special request, and this will delete my private 'bank account' data, I doubt jolla will do anything about it. "You should make backups" or smthing like this | 19:40 |
| lbt | yes, I agree | 19:41 |
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| lbt | but otoh they're highly motivated to prevent that | 19:41 |
| Custodian | so there is just a matter of trust, store = jolla | 19:41 |
| lbt | yes | 19:41 |
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| lbt | and that trust is based on economics | 19:41 |
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| Custodian | at openrepos - there are multiple "stores" by multiple developers. | 19:41 |
| lbt | the openrepos trust has less economic burden | 19:41 |
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| Custodian | it's community trust. | 19:42 |
| lbt | it's unverifiable | 19:42 |
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| Custodian | if I release crap app, all will claim me, and nobody will install any of mine apps | 19:42 |
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| tbr | that's what happened | 19:43 |
| lbt | in general opensource community trust is built on verifiabilty | 19:43 |
| tbr | and that's why I'm not going anywhere near openrepos | 19:43 |
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| Custodian | this seems like a good 'first level' verification for me when I look at developer/company name | 19:43 |
| lbt | right - and then the spam / internet identity issue arises | 19:43 |
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| lbt | when openrepos requires a verified ssl identity I'd feel better :) | 19:44 |
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| lbt | Custodian: and I do appreciate the effort to "make things better" - I just feel concern about the implementation | 19:45 |
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| lbt | also the "device update problem can be caused by any rpm" ... yes, that's something that needs a fix | 19:47 |
| Custodian | vrified ssl - you mean ssl cert at domain? openrepos is just like rolling snowball, implementation is based on demands. with harmattan there is no such problem. with sailfish it is, so I will verify apps, and place some label on package "safe for user" or whatever | 19:47 |
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| lbt | Custodian: no, I mean a developer needs to provide you with a cert which is reasonably reliable | 19:48 |
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| lbt | eg like this : https://www.startssl.com/?app=2 | 19:48 |
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| lbt | that is not issued without seeing a passport | 19:49 |
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| Custodian | ah, i get it. well, with paid harmattan apps support, there will be realname/address/bank account verification, for such devs | 19:49 |
| lbt | otherwise the identity issue is there - and this is for closed source apps | 19:49 |
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| lbt | for opensource apps they must be built on open infra | 19:49 |
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| Custodian | for opensource apps - obs bridge with digest verification is almost completed, so there will be another "badge" info on application | 19:50 |
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| Custodian | create app description, bridge with obs project, and import app upon build | 19:51 |
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| Venemo | thp: ping | 19:57 |
| Venemo | thp: do you have a moment to talk about libsailfishapp? | 19:58 |
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| Vesim987 | Is any way to fix the gestures? | 20:06 |
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| Custodian | tbr: lbt: mornfall: btw, if you have any suggestions on improvements, i'm always open. (basic package qa check, and obs bridge are on the list). | 20:14 |
| lbt | Custodian: thanks. I do want to understand what openrepos is for. Like I say, my main concern is closed binary uploads | 20:16 |
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| John24 | hey guys does debuging for sailfishOS work? | 20:21 |
| John24 | mine just says lauching forever when I press F5 | 20:22 |
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| John24 | it seems like debugger does not attach itself to the application as deploy stage seems to work | 20:26 |
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| artemma | John24: somebody was telling that only QML debugging works for now | 20:33 |
| artemma | I wasn't able to use even QML debugging | 20:33 |
| artemma | John24: go test-driven-development, it's a good reason to start with TDD :) | 20:34 |
| John24 | getting tired of console.log | 20:34 |
| John24 | mising visual studio now | 20:34 |
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| lbt | FYI I know we're working on the proper debugging support at the moment | 20:40 |
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| John24 | lbt I am glad to hear that, do you work on your own or is Digia helping you out as well? | 20:41 |
| lbt | it's been a joint effort | 20:41 |
| John24 | once again glad to hear that, best of luck guys | 20:42 |
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| coderus | Vesim987: what are you talking about? | 21:01 |
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| VesimN9 | coderus https://github.com/romu70/sailfish-for-other/issues/3 | 21:09 |
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| coderus | VesimN9: ah, this. i have fix, but i have no rights to share it now. | 21:23 |
| VesimN9 | coderus: ahhh, ok | 21:24 |
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| slate | coderus: You know how to swap the gestures or correct the real problem whats causing it? | 21:24 |
| coderus | slate: both of this | 21:24 |
| slate | I really want to swap my up / down gestures on Jolla. | 21:25 |
| coderus | its all described here: https://together.jolla.com/question/12022/patch-for-lipstick-jolla-home-qt5-to-support-any-framebuffer-orientation/ | 21:25 |
| coderus | slate: its easy if you have sources or han hack embedded qml code ;) | 21:25 |
| slate | Cant. I need to ask for help | 21:26 |
| slate | :) | 21:26 |
| slate | zchydem help | 21:26 |
| slate | :) | 21:26 |
| slate | Why in earth do I hit enter before oldschool-emojis. | 21:28 |
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| coderus | emoji are multibyte emoticons. :) is just a text smile | 21:31 |
| slate | I know, that's why its oldschool. | 21:31 |
| coderus | :S | 21:31 |
| coderus | slate: well, ping me tomorrow | 21:32 |
| slate | coderus: I'll try to learn something beforehand. | 21:33 |
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| coderus | slate: easy way is extract rcc contents from binary and patch binary to load compositor.qml from file. PeekFilter gestures are set there. | 21:40 |
| slate | Thats almost rocket-science for me at the moment. | 21:41 |
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| Andy80 | hi :) | 22:04 |
| Andy80 | it's been a while :P | 22:04 |
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| faenil | Andy80, o/ | 22:09 |
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| merlin1991 | lbt: the client in question is there anything done so far (maybe on a public repo)? | 22:15 |
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| mornfall | btw., forgive my ignorance, but what is chum? | 22:41 |
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| Jonni | mornfall: https://build.merproject.org/project/show?project=sailfishos%3Achum%3A1.0.2.5 | 22:51 |
| Jonni | mornfall: https://www.mail-archive.com/devel@lists.sailfishos.org/msg02765.html | 22:54 |
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| artemma | AL13N: I merged your pull request to HelloWorld Pro and added a comment. It would be cool if you could add a comment to code on why exactly this practice is better: HW Pro hopes to be educational for the beginners | 22:58 |
| artemma | AL13N: And thanks for the contribution! Makes code better indeed | 22:59 |
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| AL13N | artemma: thing is, i have no idea, i just saw a warning when i executed it on the phone with qmlscene | 23:00 |
| artemma | AL13N: Well, comments from anybody else are welcome too :) | 23:01 |
| artemma | AppWindow should be created faster the way you do it. However, since it is the very first page creation that you delay, I am not sure if it becomes visually faster. Probably it does (showing blank screen instead of transparent one), but somebody is better to check it | 23:02 |
| AL13N | if i was a guessing man, i'd say it was because of indirect loading | 23:02 |
| artemma | possibly there's zero performance/visual benefit exactly because it's the first page | 23:02 |
| AL13N | artemma: well, if you started it as a cover, it might be faster :-) | 23:02 |
| artemma | possibly performance is even worse as indirection takes time and AppWindow maybe is transparent until the first page is live | 23:03 |
| AL13N | true | 23:03 |
| AL13N | but still, there was a warning and iirc it did mention "initial page" so.... | 23:03 |
| artemma | AL13N: If you start it from cover, I think initial page should exist for a long time already | 23:03 |
| artemma | I don't think minimizing app destroys pages | 23:03 |
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| artemma | AL13N: thanks for correcting anyway, no warnings is way better than warnings without a clear reason :) | 23:04 |
| AL13N | artemma: well, i started an app i'm working on with qmlscene, and the display was off, so it started as cover | 23:04 |
| AL13N | the cover was only a text label (as i designed it) | 23:04 |
| artemma | wishing for better reasoning and comments anyway, maybe somebody cares to do a study or share deep knowledge in the comments | 23:04 |
| AL13N | only later, when i open it, and get back, i get the exact view in cover from how the app looks | 23:04 |
| artemma | interesting | 23:04 |
| artemma | never tried this way | 23:05 |
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| AL13N | so, imho when i started it when nonactive, i don't think the page was actually loaded | 23:05 |
| AL13N | artemma: well, it's not standard behavior :-) | 23:05 |
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| AL13N | and it's just cause i'm to lazy to actually install the SDK | 23:05 |
| AL13N | artemma: i'm working on a UI for systemd services | 23:05 |
| AL13N | and i've started from your HW app | 23:06 |
| AL13N | well, there is nothing left about it anymore, but still | 23:06 |
| artemma | AL13N: good luck with it. Task manager-like app should be quite welcome by Jolla crowd | 23:06 |
| AL13N | we'll have to see | 23:06 |
| AL13N | it's not gonna be easy | 23:06 |
| AL13N | i suspect i'll need to do some code with DBUS calls | 23:07 |
| artemma | I always start with HW Pro just for directory and project structure. Too much burden to type all the subdirs stuff manually every time | 23:07 |
| AL13N | and it's been a while since i did some DBUS code | 23:07 |
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| AL13N | Stskeeps: if you still follow openvpn@mer, i pushed a commit for review wrt openvpn systemd service | 23:08 |
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| AL13N | now, off to reboot to test the dialer things | 23:09 |
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| artemma | oh, Qt id coming to windows phone eventually! | 23:17 |
| artemma | Amazing | 23:17 |
| artemma | just four years since Nokia's CTO quit because Elop and WindowsPhone torpedoed the Nokia's Qt strategy | 23:18 |
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