Tuesday, 2013-08-13

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Bostikgood morning05:12
* Stskeeps passes jussi the coffee pot05:17
jussithanks Stskeeps, need that one this morning05:17
jussiElodi decided that 2 am was a good time to be awake...05:18
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Stskeepsnow sitting with my month old son on chest too..05:22
Bostikthird cup of tea going down, and life finally looks decent again05:24
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jussiStskeeps: ahh I had forgotten you got a little one also05:34
jussiHow does it feel to be a daddy?05:34
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Stskeepsfantastic but tiring05:36
jussiI know exactly that feeling05:37
* iekku wonders if she could sleep at all if there were children in the family05:41
jussiiekku: in fits and starts ;)05:42
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iekkujussi, i sleep under 6hr now, so...05:42
jussiiekku: 3x 2hours is normal with a newborn :D05:43
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iekkujussi, so that would be bit more than my current amount of sleep05:44
jussiiekku: I have a friend who had a baby that would wake up every 1/2 to 1 hour... Living hell05:45
jussiThey finally figured out what was wrong... the Kid was allergic to mothers breastmilk05:46
iekkuuh :/05:46
Stskeepsyeah.. reactions to what mom eats are something midwives should spend more time explaining05:46
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jussiStskeeps: ++05:56
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Bostikokay guys, this is not entirely mer-specific but I've run out of ideas and google doesn't help either - what the hell am I doing wrong here?  http://pastie.org/823188506:42
Bostikit's as if my spec-local behaviour changes are grossly ignored or overwritten06:43
Stskeepsstrip comes from qt06:44
* Bostik bangs head on desk06:44
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Bostik[5 minutes and a few mkspecs/** greps later ...]06:48
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Jihi a quick question, there is one package failed to be built in nemo:mw. Can this repo be used to generate image?06:51
JiThe failed package seems is not really important. but I am afried there are others configuration process executed after the whole project built sueecessfully06:52
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niqtfrom yesterday i have this error ./i486/qt5-qtgui-devel-5.1.0+git6-1.11.1.i486.rpm' not found on medium 'http://repo.merproject.org/obs/mer:/qt:/devel/latest_i48608:10
Stskeepszypper ref08:10
niqton repo there is new versio, thus i done zypper ref, but nothing08:11
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timophso it took me the whole morning to get the crash thing to run after avoiding the whole summer of starting to work on it :p09:25
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Stskeepsi thought we're in winter by now09:25
timophanyway. finally I have so time to work on it09:25
timoph(and some motivation as well)09:25
Bostiksummer is technically the time between nightly frosts and/or dante's inferno09:26
timophtook a couple of short cuts but basically it now produses a rcore -> scp to another machine -> extract -> backtrace -> put the info to a html page09:26
timophthe analysis part is currently just a simple shell script running in a cron job09:27
sledgeSimniqt, zypper info qt5-qtgui-devel09:28
timopha start anyway. Now I just need to make the thing actually usefull :)09:28
niqtsledgim i re-created sb2 target09:29
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timoph.fi summer == no snow on the ground09:30
sledgeSimdm8tbr, probably not the most suitable for the planet, but still: http://nsuffys.tumblr.com/09:31
Bostikaye; short, but at least short on snow too09:31
niqtsledge, info tell me 5.0.2 but while build rpm installed 5.109:38
sledgeSimwhat repo does info tell?09:39
dm8tbrsledgeSim: well I can filter in planet09:41
dm8tbrit does regex09:41
dm8tbrah, well that's nemo content, nice09:42
sledgeSimi just always though blog is something with more than just a headline :)09:42
dm8tbrwelll..... :/09:42
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niqtsledgesim http://pastebin.com/LribCGmB09:43
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sledgeSimdm8tbr, "All about Nemo Mobile...Not official blog." :)09:44
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dm8tbrso, keep em coming09:48
dm8tbrthere must be moarrrr blogz!09:48
sledgeSimpity xavinux deleted half of his very useful posts09:49
sledgeSimhe probably got employed by nokia or something sinister :))09:51
sledgeSimand went off the grid 8)09:51
sledgeSimhow to know which package belongs to which obs project?09:54
* sledgeSim can't find origins of qt5-qtgui-devel09:54
rcgsledgeSim, did you look in mer gitweb?09:55
sledgeSimright, it's part of qtbase09:55
sledgeSimyes, but only after i looked into .spec of qtbase :)09:55
rcgthe very base packages are not in obs but are pulled from there iirc09:55
rcghehe, aye :)09:55
StskeepssledgeSim: qtbase09:55
sledgeSimrcg, yes, but they still have obs packaging info, and go to the misterious mer obs ;)09:55
rcgsledgeSim, yeah :)09:56
sledgeSimniqt, I have't got an idea where did you see 5.1 version being pulled in09:57
sledgeSimhttp://gitweb.merproject.org/gitweb?p=mer-core/qtbase.git;a=tree says it's 50.209:57
* sledgeSim needs strong tea09:57
Stskeeps mer:qt09:57
sledgeSimStskeeps, thanks09:58
sledgeSimso there's somewhat a conflict if niqt adds http://repo.merproject.org/obs/mer:/qt:/devel/... to his .ks09:58
sledgeSimprobably playing with priorities or disabling mer-core (zypper mr -d mer-core) could yield different zypper info , niqt09:59
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dm8tbrsledgeSim: the planet is growing \o/10:12
sledgeSimdm8tbr, ah ofc10:14
sledgeSimand this is not blog though: http://hurrian.github.io/glacier/10:15
sledgeSimanother one: http://www.seadot.org/10:15
dm8tbrI think that's enough for an own nemo planet :D10:16
* dm8tbr creates10:16
dm8tbrthe second two urls are not blogs though10:20
sledgeSimnope :)10:20
sledgeSimbut someone could blog about them :D10:20
dm8tbrok, mer and nemo planets are in good shape now10:24
dm8tbras a start that is10:24
dm8tbrnow next: planet sailfish10:24
fk_lxdm8tbr: great! :-)10:25
sledgeSimdm8tbr, why /mer still contains nemo bits?10:25
sledgeSimalso this is mer related: superpelicanblog.wordpress.com/porting-mer-corenemo-mobile-to-the-cherry-m1007/10:25
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dm8tbrsledgeSim: because stuff overlaps10:42
sledgeSimah ok10:42
dm8tbrsledgeSim: if people tag their stuf 'mer' it will be picked up10:42
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dm8tbrif blogs are 100% nemo, let me know and I'll have them on the nemo only feed10:42
dm8tbralso I wonder if there should be two different planets, one for sailfish and one for jolla.......10:43
dm8tbras that will be different target audience10:43
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alteregoI've said it before and I'll say it again, connman is a pos.11:24
alteregoEverything else manages to maintain a network connection, but connman seems to have complete disregard for DHCP lease times and it's screwing my rpi up :(11:25
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sledgeSimalterego, could this be mildly related to: http://www.merproject.org/logs/%23nemomobile/%23nemomobile.2013-05-30.log.html#t2013-05-30T05:21:3511:36
sledgeSim^ from n950 dhcp (eth via usb) would just drop/fall back into 167.xxx.xxx.xxx address11:37
sledgeSimafter a minute or so11:37
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sledgeSimiirc updating to a fixed connman version fixed :} but that is a ~3month old issue..11:41
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alteregoThis is a proper ethernet link. And I'm using pretty up-to-date stuff.11:55
alteregoI'll probably investigate it later. My setup isn't exactly conventional.11:56
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sledgeSimwell usb encapsulates ethernet properly (85% credibility of that :))11:59
sledgeSimsurely you now went static ip way..12:00
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lbt_alterego: tbh the upstream guys are reasonably responsive - I'd say it's worth talking to them12:03
sledgeSimit might also be rpi hw related, so they'll appreciate :)12:05
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slaineAny n950 club members around ?14:27
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SuperpelicanStskeeps:Would it be possible to release the .ks you used for Qt5/Wayland based Nemo/Mer on the Alcatel One Touch?14:31
SuperpelicanStskeeps:It could save me work, as I need to make a Qt5/Wayland based image for my tablet (needs libhybris, Mali 400)14:32
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alteregoslaine: I am14:37
slaineI'm wondering if anyones used it with PR1.3 ?14:37
slaineand if it's still possible to do that14:37
slainegiven that most of the infrastructure is down14:37
alteregoIt should still be possible, if you have access to the correct firmware.14:39
alteregoOr the ability to modify N9 firmware.14:40
slaineI guess I'll have to trawl t.m.o14:40
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alteregoHah, good luck. :D14:40
slainewould be great if that sailfish image was available though, hint hint14:40
alteregoI wouldn't know anything about that :)14:41
alteregoAs far as I was aware, there will be no such thing.14:42
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alteregoslaine: also, why would you want PR1.3? :P14:51
slainewell, I found the pre 1.2 firmware that's on it buggy14:51
slaineI'm looking at using it as a replacement phone for a few months14:51
alteregoWhat's your current phone?14:51
slaineor I've an option of an SGS with CM.14:51
slaineneed an unlock code for that though14:52
alteregoHmm, I see.14:52
slaineAnd of course, there's a Lumia 800 in my cupboard somewhere14:52
alteregoHah, use that!14:52
* slaine shudders14:52
slaineI've an iPhone4, giving it to my wife14:52
alteregoI read last week someone found a vulnerability in Windows Phone that MS weren't able to fix.14:53
alterego(in an update)14:53
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slaineat least I've got options14:54
slaineNah, couldn't go back to that.14:54
slainenot as a main phone, it's a great dev target14:54
alteregoMy brother recently went back to using his N900 after his xperia died and he's waiting for his upgrade.14:55
alteregoHe said he still kind of prefers it. :D14:55
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slainewe're doing the phone shuffle in my house14:55
sledgeSimalterego, put nemo(qt5+wayland) on n950, take silica blobs from jolla phone when released, and you'll have sailfish there14:55
slaineit's my eldest sons birthday at the end of the month, he's getting my wife's iPhone 3gs, she won't won't learn anything new so she's getting my iPhone414:56
alteregosledgeSim: yes, but you don't really want to go around promoting that. You'll have to actually own the device to be able to do that.14:56
alteregoAt which point, what's the point?14:56
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sledgeSimJukka Eklund himself went around promoting that :P14:57
SuperpelicansledgeSim:Promoting what?14:57
alteregoThere's also the SSU ability, you probably will have to manually update everytime your jolla phone is updated.14:57
sledgeSimSuperpelican, what i just said14:57
alteregoNokia said the same thing about Harmattan and the N900.14:58
sledgeSimif jolla was nokia, i wouldn't be here14:58
SuperpelicansledgeSim:Are you referring to: [16:55] <sledgeSim> alterego, put nemo(qt5+wayland) on n950, take silica blobs from jolla phone when released, and you'll have sailfish there ?14:58
sledgeSimSuperpelican, yes14:58
alteregoIt requires the community to actually want it that bad, really.14:58
alteregoAnd I'm not convinced anyone with an actually Jolla handset will be that bothered about getting it on their N9 or N950s14:59
Superpelicanalterego:Most people will probably just want to use the Jolla as their main phone14:59
Superpelicanand use the N9/N950 with Nemo14:59
Superpelicanas dev/hacking device14:59
slaineit's a pity they can't release the n9[50] images with the binary only stuff via a special repo.14:59
alteregoIf you look at tmo, many people didn't get N9/50 the demand for Harmattan on the N900 was extremely high, did anyone do anything? Nope.14:59
sledgeSimwhatever will be will be, we'll put nemo with glacier first anyhow, some hardcore opensource lovers will not even want sailfish14:59
alteregoSuperpelican: agreed15:00
slainesledgeSim: nice work there too btw15:00
Superpelicantoo bad my N900 can't boot Nemo anymore :(15:00
sledgeSimgiven nemo:mw is fulled by jolla15:00
sledgeSimis a nice piece of pie15:00
sledgeSimthanks slaine15:00
Superpelicanthat immediately destroys it's only purpose15:00
alteregoslaine: if they did that, then they risk losing customers for their actual handset.15:00
slainewish I had time to contribute15:00
alteregoslaine: They also can't charge us for images (well maybe they could) but I'm sure there's some issue with that and Nokia.15:01
sledgeSimcount(losing customers) = count(n9xx owners)15:01
Superpelicanalterego, sledgeSim:I believe Jolla will open source their UI at some point15:01
alteregoSuperpelican: I'm not convinced.15:01
sledgeSimalterego, that's why im concentrating on nemo+glacier15:01
sledgeSimthe time is now, senseless to wait jolla phone15:01
sledgeSimwhen we have contributions from jolla at hand already15:02
SuperpelicansledgeSim:But will you use Silica?15:02
sledgeSimand good hardware adaptation15:02
sledgeSimfrom the past15:02
slainealterego: Yup, I understand that, but if the cross section of purchasers that wouldn't buy a Jolla phone and use the images on their N9[50]'s is that big a deal then they're off to a bad start with their target market.15:02
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sledgeSimthe biggest challenge now is - stabilise wayland on n9(50)15:02
sledgeSimbut i'm not losing hope15:02
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alteregoslaine: their target market is anyone that is interested in buying it. ;)15:02
alteregoThere isn't really a "specific" audience. I'm sure as a company they'd have a more the merrier approach, and aslong as their customers are happy.15:03
sledgeSim"the time is now" puts oss communit in "chasing the taillights" position, but that's still a rip-roaring time working on such superbly designed sw+hw combo (i own n9 e.g.)15:04
slaineWell, hobbyists won't get them very far. I thought they where going for China.15:04
alteregoChina is still one of their primary focuses sure.15:05
slaineand they should do well there.15:05
alteregoThough that has expanded I imagine with the DNA partnership in Finland.15:05
SuperpelicanWhat they're trying to say15:05
Superpelicanis that they can't release the UI yet15:05
Superpelicanbecause they'll be copied15:06
alteregoSuperpelican: yes, which is exactly what I said :)15:06
alteregoSuperpelican: they will sell sailfish os to other vendors.15:06
alteregoThat is the plan.15:06
Superpelicanwhat do they want to sell?15:06
alteregoThe complete stack.15:06
Superpelicanthe UI?15:06
SuperpelicanBut Mer and Nemo middleware15:06
Superpelicancan be obtained for free as in beer15:06
alteregoYes, they can,15:07
Superpelicanwhy would someone15:07
alteregoThey can also use Mer & Nemo themselves and do exactly what Jolla are trying to acheive.15:07
sledgeSim^ already happening btw15:07
SuperpelicanI'm suprised15:07
Superpelicanthat nobody has used Nemo already yet in a device15:08
SuperpelicanI mean15:08
SuperpelicanYou get a whole OS15:08
Superpelicanfor free15:08
alteregoCompetition is good, it keeps people focused on innovating and improving things for their customers.15:08
Superpelicanwith a community around it15:08
SuperpelicanWhat manufacturer wouldn't want that?15:08
sledgeSimno apps15:08
sledgeSimif they put android app support, then maybe15:08
sledgeSimso instead they just go with android for now15:09
Superpelicanevery new OS has that problem15:09
alteregoSuperpelican: Most manufacturers now-a-days are quite old fashioned. Making a big discision to invest in a new platform isn't always the first things on their minds.15:09
alteregoIt's usually budgets and not wanting to spend any money.15:09
slainebut then why not just do a custom launcher/ui skin for android and have android compatability15:09
alteregoAndroid compatibility costs.15:09
slaineYou've to pay M$ a license fee ;o15:09
Superpelicanbut how many new Android manufacturers are going to come?15:09
Superpelicanit's really getting boring15:10
alteregoAny phone is riddled with royalties and cost to 3rd party application providers for stock phone apps.15:10
alteregoWell, any "smartphone".15:10
Superpelicando they really think that they can keep selling the same cr*p?15:10
sledgeSimas many as they will reach lowest andy phone/tablet price mark15:10
slaineThe sad truth is that Android has be come the embedded linux we've all wanted to be available, it's just that it's structured in such a way that vendors don't have to provide the driver code upstream15:11
alteregoSuperpelican: I hope Jolla will show the industry what is capable, in a short time and make other companies think seriously about using Mer.15:11
SuperpelicanI don't think15:11
alteregoSuperpelican: and as a stepping stone for manyfacturers, sailfishos will provide that, and provide revenue for Jolla at the same time.15:11
Superpelicanalterego:But if their whole business plan relies on selling Sailfish OS15:12
Superpelicanwhy don't they just make clear15:12
Superpelicanthat the Sailfish UI15:12
Superpelicanwill stay propierarity?15:12
alteregoErm, I never said that was their whole business plan. It would be pretty naive to think that :P15:12
alteregoAfter all, they've created their own phone.15:12
SuperpelicanBut why15:13
alteregoSuperpelican: never say never.15:13
Superpelicando they keep saying15:13
Superpelicanthat their UI might become open source?15:13
alteregoThey've not said that as far as I've seen.15:13
Superpelicanthey're only going to disappoint people that way15:13
alteregoThey've intentionally been vague saying they could never rule it out.15:13
alteregoLike I said, "Never say never" ;)15:13
SuperpelicanI really hope15:14
Superpelicanthey start making some things clear15:14
Superpelicanthis autumn15:14
SuperpelicanThey can't keep being vague15:14
SuperpelicanI understand it for now15:14
Superpelicanthey'll have to start opening up15:15
slaineNo they won't15:15
Superpelican1-2 months for the launch15:15
slaineThey'll have to start making money :)15:15
alteregoI don't think they're being vague at all. They're saying currently they don't have any real plans on doing it, but you never know :)15:15
Superpelicanslaine:I didn't mean opening up15:15
Superpelicanas in making stuff open source15:15
slaineOh right :)15:15
Superpelicanshowing the closed parts15:16
slainethat would be nice thought right :)15:16
Superpelicanlike the browser15:16
Superpelicanand more specs15:16
Superpelicanthe things15:16
alteregoJolla have done loads in developing Mer and Nemo, I'd say that's pretty open ..15:16
Superpelicanthat people currently want to know15:16
AardSuperpelican: we will have a browser. :p15:16
alteregoUIs have and will always be a matter of branding and revenue.15:16
Superpelicanalterego:Would be awesome to be able to install Nemo as a sort DE on Sailfish ;)15:16
Superpelicanfor the advanced users ;)15:17
alteregoSuperpelican: I'm sure the Jolla device will be open enough to have Nemo on it. I even think that was mentioned at some point.15:17
SuperpelicanI know that Nemo15:17
Superpelicanprobably will eventually be ported15:17
Superpelicanto the Jolla15:17
Superpelicanalterego:But I was meaning15:18
Superpelicankeeping stock Sailfish installed15:18
Superpelicanbut just installing the Nemo/Glacier UI15:18
Superpelicanand sideload it with the stock Sailfish UI15:18
Superpelicanlike on the desktop15:18
alteregoWell, that would be interesting yes.15:18
alteregoAnd I'm sure it wouldn't be impossible :)15:18
Superpelicanso you could keep the stable, welltested base15:18
Superpelicanthat is finetuned for the Jolla15:19
Superpelicanbut have the new UI15:19
AardSuperpelican: they started porting the nemo-ui to wayland, which is prerequisite to having it run on jolla. having both uis installed should be doable (though the session startup is currently not designed for that)15:19
Aardbasically, you'd need to replace the compositor coming up, and replace a few prestart apps (like voicecall) with the nemo-ui ones15:19
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alteregoAard: would that be necessary if nemo implemented the protocol for cover interactivity?15:20
SuperpelicansledgeSim:But will Glacier use Silica?15:20
Aardalterego: with wayland compositor and homescreen is one application15:20
SuperpelicansledgeSim:Why not?15:20
Superpelicanwould prevent fragmentation15:20
Superpelicanand the Silica components are already open15:20
sledgeSimwe'll be using QtQuick2 Controls15:21
SuperpelicansledgeSim:So the components introduced in Qt 5.1?15:21
sledgeSimif silica is/will be using them too, might derive some custom controls to save work15:21
alteregoOoo, my curry should be arriving soon.15:21
SuperpelicansledgeSim:So that are the standard QtQuick components?15:22
Superpelicanfrom Qt 5.1?15:22
* sledgeSim off for late lunch, thanks alterego 15:22
alteregosledgeSim: see ya15:22
sledgeSimSuperpelican, they are called qtquick controls15:23
slaineIs all the work porting to Wayland currently happening in the VM builds ?15:23
sledgeSimSuperpelican, http://www.mail-archive.com/mer-general@lists.merproject.org/msg01238.html15:23
SuperpelicansledgeSim:I know15:23
alteregoI will be playing xbox and refurbishing my reprap this evening. :)15:23
Superpelicanjust ensuring that we were thinking of the same components :)15:23
SuperpelicansledgeSim:But why15:23
Aardslaine: at the moment, yes. I started packaging configuration for n9, but finishing that would require merging in the old x11 configuration as well, which I didn't have time for15:23
Superpelicanare the current Nemo Qt5 apps being ported to com.nokia.meego components?15:24
Aardbut with some manual package installs getting wayland up on n9 should work15:24
sledgeSimslaine, there's a wayland PoC for n95015:24
alteregoSuperpelican: some are some aren;t.15:24
sledgeSimSuperpelican, they were all written using com.nokia.meego in qt415:24
SuperpelicanI understand15:24
sledgeSimnow we transition to qt5 versions of them15:25
slaineI may setup my laptop this evening and see if I can get something running15:25
Superpelicanbut why not15:25
slainewould love to make some time to contribute15:25
Superpelicanport directly to QtQuick controls?15:25
sledgeSimand afterwards we'll write glacier qt-components, and move apps to them15:25
Superpelicanbut you said15:25
Superpelicanthat you were going to use QtQuick controls15:25
sledgeSimyes, we'll write glacier qt-components using qtquick controls15:25
Superpelicanso you're saying15:26
Superpelicanthat you will use basic QtQuick controls like buttons, text etc15:26
Superpelicanand will use QtQuick controls15:26
sledgeSimand skin them15:26
sledgeSimor derive more custom ones15:26
sledgeSimbased on those primitives15:26
SuperpelicansledgeSim:But as a developer15:26
Superpelicanwould I notice the difference?15:26
Superpelicanif they're skinned?15:26
Superpelicanwould I need to rewrite my QtQuick controls based UI?15:27
sledgeSimthis will be answered later15:27
sledgeSimgood point, portability will be considered15:27
SuperpelicansledgeSim:I have a Sailfish app15:27
sledgeSimthanks for this point15:27
Superpelicanand I would like to port it to Nemo15:27
SuperpelicanI don't want to port it first15:27
Superpelicanto Qt5 com.nokia.meego components15:28
Superpelicanthen to QtQuick controls15:28
Superpelicanand then at last15:28
Superpelicanto Glacier components!15:28
sledgeSimno, you wont do the first step15:28
sledgeSimwe are doing, as glacier is not ready15:28
sledgeSimand com nokia is since ages15:28
Superpelicanwhy doesn't the community start writing the Glacier components first15:28
Superpelicanand then15:28
sledgeSimbecause we need qt5 port first15:29
Superpelicanport all Qt4 com.nokia.meego15:29
sledgeSimand on wayland15:29
Superpelicanto the Glacier components directly?15:29
SuperpelicanBut X11 still works15:29
Superpelicanwhy hurry?15:29
sledgeSimbecause wayland is the way15:29
Superpelicanit'll take a longer time15:30
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Superpelicanto reach *the future*15:30
Superpelicanif you keep porting apps15:30
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alteregoWow, that glacier stuff looks awesome.15:30
sledgeSimbecause we need to move to qt515:31
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sledgeSimand qt5 nemo wont work on x1115:31
Superpelicanbut why do you need to move to Qt5?15:31
SuperpelicanQt4 Nemo will still work15:31
sledgeSimbecause of qt5 controls lol15:31
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sledgeSimand jolla moved to qt5 ages ago15:31
sledgeSimand they are providing mw15:32
Superpelicanif you want to keep up with Jolla15:32
sledgeSimso why get stuck?15:32
sledgeSimit's not a question if we want to keep up ;P15:32
Superpelicanwhy don't use their Silica components too?15:32
sledgeSimi answered that already15:32
Superpelicanshared components would make things a lot easier15:32
sledgeSim16:21 < sledgeSim> if silica is/will be using them too, might derive some custom controls to save work15:32
Superpelicanyou would benefit from all the Sailfish apps15:33
sledgeSimwill all be answered when we actually start working on glacier components15:33
sledgeSimno-one prevent silica sitting side by side to glacier in nemo15:33
Superpelicanbut Silica != closed source Jolla Sailfish UI15:33
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sledgeSimi did not mention sailfish15:34
sledgeSimthis discussion spiralled out to #nemomobile topic :) and btw, thanks alterego , thanks to Hurrian for the glacier UI15:35
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SuperpelicansledgeSim:ok let's continue the discussion on #nemomobile15:36
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CosmoHillhi w00t21:31
CosmoHillnight night21:33
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