Thursday, 2012-10-11

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sonachmoring all00:29
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deztructormorning & co02:45
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dcthangmorning02:48
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iekkumorning03:31
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* lpotter flashes his latest working version of sensor gestures03:42
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situMorning everyone04:42
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lpotterhi04:48
situAnyone read http://taskumuro.com/artikkelit/nokia-meegon-tarina,10 ?04:55
Bostikoh yes05:01
Bostik(well, the Finnish one)05:01
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iekkusitu, was interesting article05:09
timophyep05:13
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iekkustarted laugh when i saw "nok" handshake picture...05:51
situHow many people think that Elop's north american view of designing smartphones is correct ?05:57
E-PMorning05:58
iekkusitu, i think you don't see many "o/" in this channel :P05:59
VDVsxsitu, he's Canadian, maybe he's using "Canadian view" :)06:02
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Jake9xxmorning06:06
Bostikwell, he *did* have a point but somehow I think nobody connected the dots: north american tech products (and phones in particular) get disproportionate amount of media exposure - and as any advertising bloke will tell us, no such thing as bad publicity...06:06
Jake9xxsitu: he actually even tried to get small canadian companies to do qt/qml apps for something which cannot be disclosed ehre06:09
Jake9xxs/ehre/here06:09
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Jake9xxsitu: so that's his canadian view ; but - it I'd be working as a Finnish CEO outside Finland I'd try to pull in other Finnish companies , nothing wrong in that06:10
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Jake9xxiekku: I agree with most of the story, he does not highlight the ovibious issue though : N___a should have understood long time ago that there is no point to keep the old symbian ui and enable that technology that was in the works. For many years product mgmt just postponed the inevitable and even the S60 5.0 looked exactly like 3.x. Parallel to this , it is amazing to read that linux activities were slown down by prioritizing symbian and at the same time on sy06:14
Jake9xxso if the good guys were not in harmattan/meego and not in symbian -- where were they?06:14
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iekkuJake9xx, your sentence stopped at "at the same time on sy..."06:15
Jake9xxiekku: ?06:16
BostikJake9xx: you hit irc's 512-character message limit and got truncated06:16
iekkuJake9xx, that was last what i saw in your line to me06:16
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Jake9xxiekku: ...on symbian camp we had nothing but below average developers because all the top notch guys were doing harmattan/meego06:17
iekku:D06:17
iekkui have seen all kind of developers in both06:18
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Bostikbut since symbian was the cash-cow, it was apparently politically impossible to even suggest cannibalising it by building something better06:18
Jake9xxf.ex there is a legenday bug reported on N8 ; there was a memory leak on one component and we traced it down and send the info to the person in charge -> here's the problem with closed source --> you find a bug, you fix it but you cannot submit it because mr/mrs/ms X is the authorized developer06:18
iekkuwhen reading the article it needs to be noticed how frustrated people still might be06:18
Bostik"please insert head here" -posterior post-it note06:19
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Jake9xxin that bug report the original developer is saying "there was not memory leak, there was a temporary buffer that was not deleted, but it was not a memory leak"06:20
ravirdvwhy didn't they use Symbian for lower end i.e Asha instead of continuing S40? they could atleast got a better sdk06:20
iekkuJake9xx, :D06:20
Bostikthen again, they're not the first company to jealously guard their flagship products from internal competition...06:20
iekkuthat's shame06:20
Jake9xxBostik: remember what happend at Sun on the sun OS vs. solaris thingy?06:21
iekkubut i quess when company gets big enough...06:21
Jake9xxand as OSX is using the UI from NeXT, what happened to the lower layers of NeXT ?06:21
BostikJake9xx: I was thinking of even more recent example - Intel and their consumer-line motherboards vs. Xeon servers06:21
Jake9xxBostik: I haven't followed that scene for ages, laptop with i7 is sufficient for me06:22
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Jake9xxravirdv: there are two things here... original symbian could fit to device with 8MB ram, even with graphics and touch ui06:23
Jake9xxravirdv: the sh^H^Hbad stuff on top of that is the AvKon which happened because nokia re-invented wheel with symbian os06:23
BostikJake9xx: Xeon motherboards are "high-water mark", and no consumer products, even from the top-of-the-line i7 family, are allowed to offer better capabilities - if it was possible to use good i7 mobos instead of Xeon mobos, who would want to buy the expensive server stuff?06:24
Jake9xxravirdv: but that OS has the same problems as MSFT stuff - it's not f.ex POSIX compatible thus making most of OSS developers pee on it. I don't understand why it is so hard not to use existing open standards and _NOT_ reinventing wheel and introducing stuff that is a)needlessly complicated and b)utterly dead-endish. Android is exactly the same with Dalvik vs. real Java. Wonder how long they have to go? 2 years06:25
ravirdvthats what I think about Android, anyway about Symbian, I thought it was POSIX compatible06:31
Jake9xxravirdv: not out of the box. There came a OpenC implementation but...06:32
ravirdvya I remeber PIPS06:32
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Jake9xxfor the developer story, I think it's vital that what ever we as community promise to avg.developer on the backwards compatibility et al, we need to keep06:33
Jake9xxthat is something nokia failed over and over again. Now even apple is repeating those mistakes06:33
ravirdvJake9xx: what do you think about BB10?06:36
Jake9xxravirdv: I don't say anything until I have had time to study the playbook in detail (and first get time to go and buy one)06:37
ravirdvI did try the UI, it's almost similar to N9's swipe UI06:38
Jake9xxravirdv: but in order for the mer qt sdk story to be compliant, the developer experience must be at least as easy as with theirs06:38
Jake9xxIMO developing for devices currently (android, ios wp) is troublesome and requires comples system to do it (xcode is the only alternative for iphone, for android you propably need Eclipse or something (and it already went on wrong track with the word E..)06:40
Jake9xxWP is PITA, you need a _LOT_ of unnecessary sw installed to your PC if you want to try your stuff on real device, and you need to pay annual developer FEE in order to do it...06:40
Jake9xxwith qt creator coding, debugging, profiling etc on N9 is _so_ simple it's amazing that people want to struggle with f.ex Eclipse06:41
Jake9xx*inhale* *exhale* *inhale*.. ok, back to work06:42
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ravirdvJake9xx: I agree, out of all platforms I tried I found developing for N9 extremely simple.06:44
Jake9xxravirdv: true, and the development cycle for Symbian devices running Qt4 are almost on par...06:45
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Stskeepsgod morning07:49
RaYmAnGod morning to you too :P07:50
Stskeepsstayed up till 3:30am, so a bit tired :P07:51
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slaineAmen07:51
slainemoat coffee needed07:51
slainemoar even07:51
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lpotterheh07:53
lpottercoffee all around!07:53
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sonachStskeeps: Have you had your morning coffee yet? :)08:04
Stskeepssonach: only at hotel :P08:04
sonachStskeeps: now i am ready to test libhybris on hi3716c ics. I successfully run xbmc on hi3716c ics. so when you have time , we can do that :)08:05
sonachStskeeps: and i have one question, that is how to start. can i do some preparation work for this? or just follow your instruction?08:06
Stskeepssonach: if it's ICS you need to do a custom android build with this patch: http://releases.merproject.org/~carsten/nomoar.patch - don't use this as a normal android setup08:07
Stskeepsyou can use make BUILD_TINY_ANDROID=true libc08:07
Stskeepsto only build that part08:07
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Stskeepsit applies against bionic/08:08
Bostiknice error handling for development, "method not overridden, die..."08:09
StskeepsBostik: yep, not exactly a production patch08:10
Stskeepsjust wanted to make sure no internal stuff uses it08:10
Bostikfail early, fail often, fail without fail08:10
BostikI like it, tbh08:10
sonachStskeeps: where to set " BUILD_TINY_ANDROID=true"?08:11
Bostikmake command line08:11
Stskeepssonach: when you're about to make android, after chooseproduct and choosevariant08:11
Stskeepsthen you just use make BUILD_TINY_ANDROID=true libc08:11
Stskeeps'make BUILD_TINY_ANDROID=true libc'08:12
Stskeepsthat is08:12
sonachStskeeps: Bostik: OK.08:12
sonachStskeeps: and if I build ics successfully, then I can burn system image etc to flash, just as before?08:13
Stskeepsnop, we only need the libc.so and so on08:13
Stskeepsyou shouldn't try to flash this image, it will not work :)08:14
Stskeepswhat we're interested in is /system/lib/libc.so and so on08:14
sonachStskeeps: ah, that is, i just need to replace libc.so?08:14
Stskeepssonach: so what you need is a copy of your /system and /vendor from your android system and copy it into mer08:15
Stskeepsie, so you have /system and /vendor in mer too08:15
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Stskeepsand then we put our modified /system/lib/libc.so and so on on top of that08:16
sonachStskeeps: (1) build a mer rootfs; (2) copy /system and /vendor of ics to mer; (3) replace libc.so.  Are those steps right?08:17
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sonachStskeeps: (4) turn the modified mer rootfs to modified_mer.yaffs; (5) burn modified_mer.yaffs to flash.08:20
sonachStskeeps: no hurry. I will be doing this in the following days, so i can wait when you are convinent :)08:21
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Stskeepssonach: correct08:29
sonachStskeeps: cool. then it seems that I have a lot of to do, especially build a mer rootfs for hi3716c and this mer rootfs can work fine.08:30
Stskeepssonach: yes, don't bother about getting xorg up and so on08:31
Stskeepsjust boot to console08:31
sonachStskeeps: ok, that is just boot up the BASE system and can see the login prompt,08:32
Stskeepsyes08:34
sonachStskeeps: and what mer release is ok for this test? the latest release?08:36
Stskeepsyes08:37
sonachok08:37
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situStskeeps: I don't know why Dependency build checker failed here http://review.merproject.org/#change,888 ?09:07
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Stskeepssitu: sage's fault09:10
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Sage_Stskeeps: what? :D09:13
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Stskeepspq: http://pastie.org/5031141 seems to be mostly working with libhybris btw10:29
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Stskeepslo vgrade10:33
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pqStskeeps, heyy, nice :-)10:35
Stskeeps(thanks to morphis and the webos guys)10:35
vgradeStskeeps: \o10:37
pqStskeeps, where are the calls to libhybris?10:40
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Stskeepspq: transparent10:41
Stskeepspq: uses egl directly10:41
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Stskeepslibhybris provides the libEGL / libGLESv2 so10:41
pqyou mean you have your own libEGL wrapper running now?10:41
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Stskeepsyeah, long ago10:41
Stskeepsie, no more weird function pointer stuff10:41
pqthat's really great!10:42
pqahah, I just forgot, that it was already there when I played with it myself :-D10:43
Stskeepshehe10:43
pqI just spent more time looking at the wrappers and linker, than the test app10:43
pqso forgot what the test apps looked like10:43
pqthat pastie makes it look really simple, doesn't it?10:44
pqno C++ to care for10:45
Stskeepsyeah, possibly10:45
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mikhaspq, so what are your plans now?11:29
mikhasspending a bit more time with android again?11:29
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pqmikhas, something else than android for now, I just want to keep in touch with hybris for the future11:32
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crevetormorning everyone13:30
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francois_hello there17:09
francois_I have just bootstrapped my Core:sh4 project and can build the initial packages locally using osc17:10
Stskeepscongratulations :)17:10
francois_:)17:10
francois_well...17:10
Stskeepscan i see a readelf -A of your /bin/sh, out of curiousity?17:10
francois_the OBS server is now scheduling packages but no actual build happens :(17:11
francois_yes17:11
Stskeepsit is sometimes a bit slow with a fakeobs17:11
francois_readelf -A doesn't show anything17:12
francois_neither does it on my debian machine17:13
Stskeepsok, maybe nothing special17:14
Stskeepshow about 'file' ?17:14
francois_$ file /var/tmp/build-root/target/bin/bash /var/tmp/build-root/target/bin/bash: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Renesas SH, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, not stripped17:14
Stskeepscool17:14
Stskeepsgood work :)17:14
Stskeepshow much modification did you need to packages?17:14
francois_I had a hard time finding out all the bootstrap packages though ^^17:14
Stskeepshm, didn't i give you the list?17:15
francois_nope17:15
Stskeepsor did it get bigger since last17:15
Stskeepsah, i'm sorry then17:15
francois_no pb I would have been eager to find it too anyway17:15
francois_in short here's my list: binutils kernel-headers glibc gcc expat setup filesystem zlib bzip2 file xz ncurses elfutils popt attr db4 pam libcap nspr readline sqlite nss rpm texinfo bash diffutils openssl ca-certificates make acl coreutils libidn lua curl sed tar tzdata autoconf automake pkgconfig gdbm perl cpio gawk pcre grep gzip unzip patch m4 findutils build build-compare rpmlint-MeeGo rpmlint-mini net-tools groff shadow-utils mer-re17:17
Stskeepspastie.org probably better17:17
francois_ok sorry17:17
Stskeepsmostly because it got cut off :)17:18
Stskeepsand that list does seem about right17:18
Stskeepsmy list is on a different harddisk that i can't reach right now anyway, but it looks correct17:18
francois_:)17:19
francois_I got some trickey things with the %find_lang macro for instance17:19
Stskeepsyeah17:19
Stskeepsmeego-rpm-config is a nightmare in that regard17:19
Stskeepsi've been meaning to fix it but.... :P17:19
francois_it expects the filesystem package to be installed....17:19
Stskeepsyeah17:19
Stskeepsfrancois_: i would like to congratulate you on doing something that not many people can do in the world :)17:20
francois_lol17:20
francois_thanks!17:20
francois_I used the Mer:SDK to build the bootstrap17:20
Stskeeps:nod:17:20
francois_that was cool too17:20
Stskeepsi didn't have that luxury back then myself, but good to know it works17:21
Stskeepsso what's the OBS problem? that packages don't get scheduled?17:21
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francois_they do get scheduled17:21
francois_but the job does not seem to be sent to the workers17:22
Stskeepsok, do you have Hostarch indicated?17:22
Stskeepsand what architecture is the workers?17:22
Stskeepsi586 or x86_64 ?17:22
francois_x86_6417:23
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Stskeepsok, verify that prjconf has a Hostarch: x86_64 then17:23
Stskeepsfor your SH build17:24
Stskeepsi586 is also ok17:24
francois_mmm there's no Hostarch in my prjconf17:24
francois_or it gets inherited from Core:i58617:24
Stskeepshmm17:24
francois_I kept the sh4 prjconf really simple17:24
Stskeepsalso, look in your /srv/obs/log and /srv/obs/jobs17:25
Stskeepsand see how they get stuck17:25
Stskeepsmaybe it's looking for actual sh4 hw workers17:25
Stskeepsdispatcher would be the one to look at17:28
francois_well there is a difference between the the bzip2 job file on the server and the local one I get from osc (_buildinfo-Core_sh4-sh4.xml)17:28
Stskeepshmm, that's not totally impossible, but which difference?17:29
francois_in the local one I have version, release, arch, project... xml attributes17:29
Stskeepsit's actually two different pieces of code, i was kind of upset when finding that out too17:29
francois_and none of those on the server17:29
Stskeepsthat's normally ok.. it's more interesting however to see what path it puts it17:30
francois_the paths look ok: Core:sh4 and Core:i58617:32
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francois_I screen'ed on the workers and didn't get anything either17:33
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Stskeepsie, it should be in /srv/obs/jobs/i586 with name ::cross17:35
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francois_my jobs are in /srv/obs/jobs/sh4/Core:sh4::Core_sh4::bzip2XXX17:36
Stskeepsanything in  i586?17:37
Stskeepsor x86_6417:37
francois_no17:37
francois_if I trigger a package from the mips project, I do get an entry in i586 and mips17:39
Stskeepshmm17:39
francois_Maybe the hostarch then?17:39
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Stskeepsyeah probably.. go add Hostarch: i586 to sh4 project, then stop scheduler, rm the jobs in /srv/obs/jobs/sh4/*17:40
Stskeepsand start scheduler17:40
Stskeepsand it should divert the the right place17:41
francois_it did create all the cross files :-)17:43
francois_but still not building :(17:43
Stskeepsgive it a bit17:43
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francois_yeah!17:46
francois_it spun off!17:46
francois_:-)17:46
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francois_ok it seems to building now :-)17:51
francois_thanks a lot!17:51
francois_one step further ^^17:52
francois_I'll keep you posted anyway17:53
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Stskeepscool17:53
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Jake9xxso, I've got the cordova built + packaged in my home:jake9xx in COBS18:39
Stskeepscool18:39
Jake9xxshould we package it to gitweb ?18:39
Stskeepsnah, put it in nemo first18:40
Jake9xxI don't have commit rights to it18:40
StskeepsOBS SR18:40
Jake9xxno habla OBS18:41
Stskeeps..:P18:41
Stskeepsobs submitreq18:41
Stskeepsosc sr18:41
Jake9xxah, of course :)18:41
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Jake9xxmaybe it's just me but what's the official project name for nemo? nemomobile ?18:50
Stskeepsnemomobile.org18:50
Stskeepsbecause of commonality of nemo , so it's nemo mobile18:51
Stskeepsmobilus in mobilii, etc..18:51
Stskeeps:P18:51
Stskeepshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Nemo18:52
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Jake9xxhmm.. ok, maybe it's the fact I've been too many hours doing something else... but I was kinda asking to which project I am requesting the sr18:52
Stskeepswhat are it's dependencies?18:53
Stskeepsjust qt+qtwebkit, or more?18:54
Jake9xxpkgconfig(QtCore), qt-mobility-devel, libqtwebkit-devel, libqtopengl-devel,mesa-llvmpipe-libGLESv2-devel18:54
StskeepsCE:MW:Shared then - also, you probably should use pkgconfig(glesv2) and pkgconfig(QtOpenGL) and pkgconfig(qtwebkit)18:55
Stskeepsespecially for the mesa one18:55
Jake9xxI had some build problems before, but I'll try with those18:55
Stskeepsyep18:56
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Jake9xxyeah18:57
Jake9xxbuildinfo is broken... it says:18:57
Jake9xxunresolvable: nothing provides pkgconfig(qtwebkit18:57
Jake9xxthat was the thing18:57
StskeepsQtWebKit ?18:58
Jake9xxyup18:58
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Jake9xxwith libqtwebkit-devel it goes thru nicely18:59
* Jake9xx has a long and not oh, so pleasant history with webkit in general :)18:59
Stskeepswell, as in, did pkgconfig(QtWebKit) works18:59
Jake9xxhmm19:00
Stskeepsi don't think anybody likes webkit, or gecko, but they're a necessary evil19:00
Stskeeps:P19:00
Jake9xxdamn. it's case sensitive19:00
Stskeepsyeah19:01
Jake9xxqt-mobility cannot be interrogated via pkgconfig ?19:01
Stskeepsi think you'd to use individual pkgconfigs and i don't recall them offhand19:01
Stskeeps:P19:01
Jake9xxash.. that shall be it for time being19:02
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Jake9xxcreated request id 697619:06
Jake9xxI'll write some notes for next one that runs into a wall :)19:06
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Stskeepsusually spectacle helps advise you the right way19:07
Stskeeps:P19:07
Stskeepsbut the opinions on spectacle vary19:07
Jake9xxyeah, was thinking of it but was not familiar with it and openSUSE's pages were actually quite good19:07
Jake9xxalso helped a bit to work on OBS in you-know-what19:07
Stskeeps:nod:19:08
Jake9xxs/to work/have been working19:08
Stskeepshttp://releases.merproject.org/~carsten/mindmap/OBS.html19:08
Stskeeps:P19:08
Stskeepsdumped a bunch of obs knowledge in that19:10
Jake9xxSage_: Stskeeps pls delete 6976 and use 6977 instead.19:11
Jake9xxthat's actually nice diagram19:11
StskeepsJake9xx: you can use osc request to get rid of things yourself19:11
Stskeepsi used this mindmap to explain obs to a bunch of people in some building in helsinki, though it wasn't my best presentation format19:12
Stskeepsbut it's very useful to look up themes and issues19:16
Jake9xxhow can you ask obs pkgconfig issues ?19:17
Stskeepsin terms of what provides what?19:17
Jake9xxexactly19:17
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Stskeepsprobably a bad answer, but ..19:19
Stskeepshttp://releases.merproject.org/releases/0.20120920.1/builds/i486/packages/repodata/5f81fa68405d780f1d8ca556a837dead88251c4f72236292ac6da23133601a58-primary.xml.gz19:19
Stskeepssearch for pkgconfig( in it19:19
Stskeeps:P19:19
Stskeepswe can -probably- script that19:19
Jake9xxyup19:19
Jake9xxyou're right. it's bad answer but it's the best available :)19:20
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Jake9xxlet's see what bossbot things about it... *fingers crossed*19:23
Jake9xxhow can I clean my request-list of old/revoked requests?19:23
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Stskeepsosc request --help?19:24
Stskeeps:P19:24
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Jake9xxbossbot accepted19:24
Jake9xxnice19:24
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Jake9xxosc request list gives you the open ones, request -a list gives you all19:26
Stskeepsok19:26
Stskeepswell old ones are still useful SRs mostly :P19:27
Jake9xxkinda ok I guess19:27
Jake9xxok, zz seeya tomorrow19:27
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ka6soxStskeeps, how much space should I allocate for a full build of Mer?19:45
ka6sox(or anyone :D)19:46
Stskeepska6sox: the good news is that the actual building happens on our side, so we build source packages into RPMs19:46
Stskeepska6sox: so the size of the rpms and the resulting image19:46
Stskeepsof which you decide size of image19:46
Stskeeps10-15g should be fine as a workspace19:46
ka6soxah, okay!19:46
ka6soxgood.19:46
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GeneralAntillesw00t, haaaa. 2008 was so many years ago.20:34
w00t:-)20:34
w00tit's a bit fun to read things from that far back20:35
GeneralAntillesI tend to cringe.20:36
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: back when tmo was useful and employees frollicked with community20:36
w00twell yeah20:36
w00tit's natural to cringe when you read things you wrote years ago20:36
w00t:P20:36
GeneralAntillesIf Jolla ever has a community forum, it's going to need some very active moderation.20:37
GeneralAntillesWhere We Went Wrong: The maemo.org Story20:37
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: don't worry, i've added abill_uk and Lumiaman to my contract conditions20:37
Stskeeps:P20:37
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GeneralAntilles"You must hunt them down and take away their internet access."20:38
Stskeepshehe20:39
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* Stskeeps misses old community and hopes to be in a place like that in future.20:41
GeneralAntillesYeah, there was something special about ITt20:42
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* lpotter doesnt go to maemo.org forums anymore20:54
lbtnope - shame really20:58
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CosmoHillhow many of you go to change IRC tab and close it by mistake?20:58
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GeneralAntillesCosmoHill, put it on a keyboard shortcut.21:01
CosmoHillI have keybaord shortcuts too21:01
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zenvoidthe thing that scares me most is not to close an irc tab, but the possibility of sending very embarrasing text to the wrong tab and have it logged for posterity in web archives21:31
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CosmoHillnight night21:47
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eswueshi23:43
eswuesanybody here?23:44
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eswuesmh. I was wandering; is it posible to install Mer on Android device? I have Superpad 6 tablet and can not stand Android on it :/23:52
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