Sunday, 2012-09-30

yunta_from mic: Error <creator>: Command 'modprobe' is not available.00:05
yunta_why does it need it?00:06
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Stskeepsgood morning07:06
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Stskeeps2/whois popey07:40
Stskeepserr..07:40
Stskeepswell that didn't work07:40
Stskeepspopey: welcome to #mer :)07:40
popey:)07:40
popeyhello07:41
Stskeepsso what brings you here?07:41
popeyI've done that before :)07:41
Stskeepsi try to help make a more welcoming atmosphere here by making sure every newcomer feels welcome :) and well, sometimes the procedure slips up ;)07:42
popeyNice idea07:43
popeyNot many irc channels do that.07:43
popeyI just tend to lurk in loads of channels to learn about projects..07:43
* dm8tbr throws Stskeeps a botsnack07:43
Stskeepsyeah.. i've been dealing with communities that end up being toxic and unwelcome and it just ends up with potential contributors not even being able to, no matter how passionate they are about the project..07:44
situMorning all07:45
Stskeepspopey: but sure, if you have any questions on Mer, feel free to ask at any time :)07:45
Stskeepsmorn situ07:46
popeythanks07:46
situlbt: ping07:46
Stskeepspopey: ah, right - you've been here before, with joggler :)07:52
popeyblimey, your log searching is throughout  :)07:52
Stskeepsi recognised your nickname from somewhere, so :P07:53
popey:)07:53
Stskeepsi should really put mer on my joggler..07:53
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dm8tbrStskeeps: you could at least make it a wall-clock like I did...07:57
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Stskeepspossibly, yeah07:58
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Stskeepsor something like a chumby08:00
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Stskeepshello dev___09:21
dev___hi Stskeeps09:21
Stskeepsdev___: welcome to #mer :) so what brings you here?09:22
dev___I've been following Meego project since long... until it was need09:22
dev___dead*09:22
Stskeeps:nod: well we certainly take the spirit of it continued here09:22
dev___and wanted to contribute to Mer/Maemo since sometime09:22
dev___I know :) I've been a long time lurker of talk.maemo.org09:23
dev___know you from there09:23
Stskeepsso what would you like to contribute in?09:23
dev___anything related to code09:23
dev___I have habit of writing docs as i code09:23
Stskeepssure, start out with wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Platform_SDK09:23
dev___did that09:24
Stskeepsperhaps try out Nemo09:24
dev___tried Meego default UX which i believe is Nemo09:24
dev___my N900 is dead now-a-days09:24
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Stskeepsnah, nemo's much saner09:24
dev___oh well... i need a vm for that09:24
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Stskeepsyeah, there's one09:24
dev___yesterday i was seeing if qemu or virtualbox would be the way to go09:25
Stskeepsvirtualbox i use myself09:25
dev___nemo's instructions have virtualbox while platform sdk wants qemu09:25
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Stskeeps:nod:09:25
Stskeepsthere's a small compositor issue in current one09:25
dev___i do not have enough space to setup two VMs09:25
Stskeepswell, virtualbox then :P09:26
dev___with qemu or virtualbox?09:26
dev___but i feel like working with platform sdk09:26
Stskeepsplatform sdk doesn't actually use qemu to be used :)09:26
Stskeepsjust a standard linux install09:26
dev___i also wanted to know, if i make changes in platform sdk, how do i see it reflected in nemo09:26
Stskeepsyou can deploy it, think of the vm as another device09:27
dev___yup09:27
Stskeepsso scp, ssh, etc09:27
dev___i use VMs daily at work09:27
dev___oh and btw, officially i work in games and currently am a server engineer09:28
dev___but wanted to get back to c++ and roots of system programming09:28
dev___+ Meego and Maemo have caught my fancy since a few years09:28
Stskeeps:nod:09:29
Stskeepscertainly plenty of challenges in mer09:29
dev___yup09:29
dev___just saw the bug list09:29
dev___couldn't find anything related to code09:29
dev___there is lot of CI stuff09:29
Stskeepsyeah, because most development goes on in upstream projects09:30
Stskeepswe don't want to fork systemd on our own, as an example09:30
dev___ok09:30
Stskeepswe package the goodies nicely and develop exciting things on top of mer09:30
Stskeepsbut there's a lot about QA, too09:30
dev___anyway, i guess i should ask more pertinent questions09:31
Stskeepsdev___: feel free to ask any questions at any time :)09:31
dev___1. what comes in platform sdk?09:32
Stskeepsplatform sdk is practically a mini mer chroot that contains image creators, obs tools, typical tools that a developer needs on a day to day basis09:32
dev___ok09:33
Stskeeps95% of all the challenges in meego/support questions were due to people not being able to have working tools from day zero on their various distros09:33
Stskeepsso we made platform sdk to solve that09:33
dev___how mature does it feel and how easy is it for newbies to use it?09:33
dev___i am asking this because if it needs work, i may give it a shot09:34
Stskeepsquite easy to get into but we are happy to have someone help to fix minor issues with it09:35
Stskeepsas we're a bit short of hands and lbt, who's doing sdk, has other tasks too09:35
dev___but i would need docs to get started09:35
dev___where is the max shortage?09:35
dev___i mean which area/component?09:35
Stskeepsi think the stuff surrounding cross compilation and sb2 could need some tender loving care09:35
dev___oh man!!!09:36
Stskeepsit works properly but isn't always documented09:36
dev___i just removed fremantle cross compilation tool09:36
Stskeepsscratchbox209:36
dev___tolls*09:36
Stskeepsnot 109:36
Stskeeps;)09:36
Stskeepsbig difference :)09:36
dev___freed up a few gigs for this experiment09:36
Stskeepsyeah09:36
dev___does sb2 also install complete environments?09:36
Stskeepsno, you select yourself what you'd like to use as target09:37
Stskeepscan be a image you built yourself, etc09:37
Stskeepsdev___: i think the best way is simply to dive into it, make notes on what strikes you as undocumented, not working, etc, and ask as many questions as you want09:37
Stskeepsthere's 'enough' documentation to do that already09:38
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dev___good... where is it and what type of loving does it need?09:38
Stskeepswiki.merproject.org/wiki/Platform_SDK09:38
Stskeepshttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Platform_SDK#Compiling_with_the_SDK09:38
Stskeepsis relevant as well09:38
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dev___please give me a minute to skim through it09:40
Stskeepsno problem, take your time09:40
dev___https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Platform_SDK_and_SB209:43
dev___this looks fairly complete09:44
Stskeepsyeah, but a lot of manual steps09:44
Stskeepsso it could definately need some abstraction09:45
Stskeepsbut anyway, get sdk, make an image, try out the tools, try to cross compile09:45
Stskeepsand that gives a decent feel to where we're at09:45
dev___cool09:45
dev___give me a few more minutes09:45
dev___it is really late here and my concentration seems to be waning09:46
Stskeepsdon't worry, perhaps get some sleep instead :)09:46
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dev___its fine... sunday tomorrow :)09:49
dev___i mean today09:49
Stskeepsalready sunday here :P09:49
dev___ok... so it seems you are aiming for an IDE functionality09:49
dev___same here :)09:49
Stskeepsnot entirely - we have qt creator for IDE at a higher level09:49
Stskeepsplatform sdk's supposed to work as a good way to cross compile platform level stuff09:50
dev___is that integrated with sb2?09:50
Stskeepsthere's some guides how to do that, yes09:50
Stskeepshttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/User:Tswindell/Qt_Creator_And_Mer_Integration09:50
dev___you know... this is a very important page and should appear on the main wiki itself09:51
Stskeepsyes, though it's a thing under research09:52
Stskeepshelp more than welcome to help shape things a bit09:52
dev___sorry if it may feel brash... but it sometimes annoys me that great engineering is marred by bad marketing09:52
dev___i guess i will do that09:52
Stskeepshehe, that's not brash :)09:52
Stskeepsthough to do that you also need understanding to write documentation, hence me suggesting diving into it09:52
dev___yup09:53
dev___i think i need to start tinkering with stuff, get a hang of everything (well that is not possible) and then get in shape to write docs etc...09:53
dev___maybe anything that eases a new person's on-boarding09:54
Stskeepsyeah09:54
Stskeepsmake notes, as i believe that once you've spent too long time in a project, you gain to go blind to obvious / glaring problems / get used to them09:54
Stskeepsand hence don't see them as a priority.. but newcomers do09:55
dev___totally :)09:55
dev___that's why making docs while coding :)09:55
dev___i'll say coding or even setting up the system09:55
dev___so lets define a task then, keeping in mind that i have not even coded a c program in linux before this09:56
Stskeepswell, try to go for hello world, i guess09:56
Stskeepson an arm target09:56
dev___sure09:58
dev___which arm arch does N9 run?09:58
Stskeepsarmv7hl09:58
dev___ok09:58
dev___so mer has QT libs09:59
Stskeepsyeah09:59
Stskeepsgitweb.merproject.org/gitweb gives a pretty good understanding of mer contents10:00
Stskeepsmer doesn't push a common apps story though10:00
dev___that means the hello world program can be made in QT or C10:00
Stskeepsfor example, yes10:00
dev___ok... then i guess the task would be to document the process to install and launch a hello world app in mer project on armv7hl target10:01
dev___what is mer's story to see a app on a vm?10:02
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Stskeepsideally make a rpm and deploy10:02
Stskeepswith scp/ssh10:02
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dev___i mean create and see an app... because that is what i think is most important to incoming devs10:02
Stskeepssure, but also working with the platform cponents10:02
Stskeeps+om10:03
dev___of course10:03
dev___so i can see two branches - one to make the platform and one to use it to make commercial apps10:03
Stskeeps:nod:10:03
Stskeepsthe idea is also with platform sdk to make it such that a vendor can take it and make a 'their platform' sdk10:03
Stskeepsie, with ui libs, etc10:04
dev___is this platform sdk that you talk of same as platform sdk definition you gave earlier10:04
dev___"platform sdk is practically a mini mer chroot that contains image creators, obs tools, typical tools that a developer needs on a day to day basis"10:05
dev___or is this basically a system of basically a headless mer10:05
dev___by headless i mean without GUI... maybe i should say with default GUI10:06
Stskeepsyeah10:10
Stskeepsit's headless-ish mer, like, suited for chroot usage10:10
Stskeepsso it doesn't have x server, etc10:10
dev___ok10:11
Stskeepswe also use it as a starting point for qa tools10:12
Stskeepslike test runners, etc10:12
dev___so what do i have to do to take platform sdk and convert it to something that i can install on a vm or device with nemo UI?10:12
Stskeepswell, usually you don't, you just install nemo and install the right repos + tools10:12
Stskeepsif you want to develop on device10:12
dev___i am just trying t get the whole process clear in my head - from a core system to something that end users can use10:12
Stskeeps:nod:10:13
Stskeepsmer is core, platform sdk is core + tools, nemo is core+ui, plus a hardware adaptation (pc, n900, n9, etc)10:13
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dev___ok10:13
dev___interesting10:14
dev___so the UI project is called nemo, cordia, plasma active10:14
Stskeepsyes for example10:14
Stskeepswe seperate because on core level it's the least amount of arguments10:14
Stskeepseverybody ends up with a similar stack for non-android10:14
dev___:)10:15
dev___you know when i had first heard of mer10:15
Stskeepswe seperate hw adaptations out to make sure that core releases don't hold up device schedules10:15
dev___i actually wanted to make a new ux10:15
Stskeepswe seperate ui because not everybody will agree on what side of the dialog 'cancel' goes on10:15
dev___hahahaha10:15
dev___of course10:15
dev___happens in games all the time10:15
Stskeepsor GTK vs qt..10:15
Stskeepsetc10:15
Stskeeps:P10:16
Stskeepsso, we can all work together on a common core ;)10:16
dev___i think this chat can be placed on some page :P10:16
dev___in wiki...10:16
Stskeepshehe10:16
dev___lot of basics in one place10:16
Stskeepshttps://archive.fosdem.org/2012/schedule/event/391/79_beyond.pdf is some thoughts as well10:16
Stskeepswe collect logs at merproject.org/logs/10:17
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dev___interesting10:20
dev___that IRC log may prove really useful10:20
Stskeeps:nod:10:20
Stskeepsalso, you can still, with ease, make your own ui - check out lipstick, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zg0NvSaXmY10:21
Stskeepsframework to do qml uis10:21
Stskeeps / homescreens with ease10:21
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dev___you know what! I had already had a word with my friends about making a UI10:21
dev___that's why Mer was useful...10:22
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dev___but i also realize it is not possible to accomplish with just one person's efforts10:24
dev___anyway, i think i have had enough basics for the moment... i guess i will leave now and start with mer the moment i get a chunk of free time10:25
dev___thank you Carsten for sharing your valuable time, i deeply appreciate it10:25
dev___good night/day :)10:26
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mikhasspecial, lets try to get self-compositing fixed for QML, I'd say (re: bug 456)11:06
MerbotMer bug 456 in libXpm "update libXpm to 3.5.10" [Task,Resolved: fixed] https://bugs.merproject.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45611:06
mikhasno, wrong bug11:06
dm8tbrmaybe you meant nemo bug 45611:07
MerbotNemo bug 456 in Maliit "Maliit needs an upgrade (with significant changes)" [Normal,Assigned] https://bugs.nemomobile.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45611:07
Stskeepsooh, useful11:08
* dm8tbr is still waiting for a patch that enables 'official' bug IDs11:08
mikhasthanks dm8tbr11:11
mikhasdoes NEMO#456 work?11:11
dm8tbr11:08:52 * dm8tbr is still waiting for a patch that enables 'official' bug IDs11:12
mikhasright11:12
mikhas=p11:12
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lbtafternoon all11:34
lbtsitu: quick pong11:34
Stskeepslbt, was next imported?11:38
lbtIt should have been a normal pre-release11:39
lbtI wasn't aware of any issues - just checking now11:40
Stskeepsok11:40
lbtlooks like it wasn't11:41
lbtthe xml has the old values11:41
Stskeepsok11:41
lbthttp://releases.merproject.org/releases/next-release is correct though11:42
lbtupdating now11:43
lbtspent most of yesterday either catching up around house or asleep :)11:43
lbtok .. taking Denise out this afternoon ... back later11:48
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Stskeepsta11:48
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situlbt: Any hints how to solve this https://bugs.merproject.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113 ?11:50
MerbotMer bug 113 in OBS "Changelog entry creation plugin for osc" [Task,New]11:50
lbtsitu: yes - write an .osc-plugin/ plugin or modify the code for osc vc to use a template provided in .oscrc11:56
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timophkyyberi: I've nothing against having talks but 4/5 of the time should be reserved for doing things13:16
timophwe can start with talks (1-1.5h) and have rest of the time reserved for free hacking13:17
timophalso since we have a topic for the hackday, we should mention that if someone wants to work on something else that is perfectly fine13:17
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timophI don't want to restrict what people can work on13:19
timophif someone wants to come in and write .net, java or whatever that is 100% fine13:19
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* timoph replied to the wrong channel :/13:24
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cybettetimoph: I will add tthe part about free hacking to eventbrite info13:30
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kyyberitimoph *nod*14:56
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SuperpelicanSearching for "python3" and "python 3" in Meego Community Open Build Service doesn't give any results except for builds for Maemo and Meego Harmattan15:04
SuperpelicanSo looks like Python 3 really isn't build for real Meego/Mer (rpm-based) yet15:05
SuperpelicanIs there a log that logs all IRC activity, not only the meetings?15:07
SuperpelicanI want to dig up something ali1234 said about building python 3 yesterday15:08
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Kelteseth_heyho ;)15:38
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rcgwhere can i find the sources for qt (more precisely libQtDeclarative) as used in the current mer builds?15:53
rcgideally with *.spec and *.yaml files15:53
rcgis it somewhere in the OBS?15:53
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specialmikhas: self-compositing should definitely be fixed, thanks for putting that upstream. What I'm unsure of is which solution nemo should use16:00
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Stskeepsgitweb.merproject.org/gitweb , rcg16:07
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rcgStskeeps, thanks :)16:11
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Jake9xxStskeeps: some comments on Mer SDK on Ubuntu 12.04 ;  'modprobe' is not on the std. $PATH (i.e. /sbin is not in $PATH)21:10
Jake9xxStskeeps: but I guess this is more on the SDK than ubuntu itself?21:11
lbtJake9xx: check the wiki21:12
Jake9xxlbt: ah, you're right :)21:12
lbt:)21:12
lbtnb, the ubuntu part should not matter at all21:13
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Jake9xxlbt: but for Ubuntu 12.04 there's one thing. Precise does not have python-2.6 anymore, it requires python-2.7-dev21:13
lbtSDK has a couple of minor requirements: bash and a kernel :)21:14
lbtall other things are internal to the SDK21:14
lbtso osc and all other Mer tools should run inside the SDK21:15
lbtmake sense?21:15
Jake9xxlbt: the page I was referring to is https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Image_Creation21:17
lbtah - sorry, that probably needs a review21:17
Jake9xxlbt: :)21:17
lbtis https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Platform_SDK#Building_an_image enough to get you going?21:17
Jake9xxlbt: yup, but there could be 'latest' reference automatically for some lazy ppl21:18
Jake9xxlbt: on 'curl -k -o mer-sdk-x86-chroot-latest.ks <INSERT URL OF LATEST KICKSTART HERE>' but like said, for lazy people21:18
lbtI'll strip the non-Mer stuff from that page21:18
lbtJake9xx: yep - that'd be good. Are you volunteering to keep it up to date?21:19
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Jake9xxlbt: with access to the wiki + notification when stuff at https://img.merproject.org/images/sdk/ updates, yes21:19
lbtaccess uses your bugzilla account - so that's fine21:20
lbtI announce on the mailing list - and it would be nice to have it done21:20
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lbtty :)21:21
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