Wednesday, 2012-06-20

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* lbt decided to wake up early :)06:08
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lbtone day I'll get it right ... :D06:08
lbtbut that does mean extra coffee is needed06:09
* dm8tbr got a fun morning already...06:09
dm8tbrright before my first coffee my /27 disappeared06:10
dm8tbrcame back an hour later, must have been a network maintenance at the uni or sthg06:10
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Stskeepssome rat ate a cable?06:10
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dm8tbror they decided to install all the cisco security upgrades across the network.06:13
Stskeepsanybody who's in Helsinki and bored and up for a lunch with me around 12?06:13
* dm8tbr will be bored at a meeting in T:re ;)06:13
lbtStskeeps: changelog published .... it didn't work locally because my git repo wasn't up-to-date;  I think my network had gone down during a scheduled git pull06:14
Stskeepslbt: ok06:14
Stskeepsok, so connman and bluez are the most dangerous creatures06:15
lbtThe log format is hard to scan-read06:16
Stskeepsfeel free to adjust it .. reasoning is that you can watch for odd behaviour06:17
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lbtStskeeps: am I right in thinking pkgconfig should be in the sb2 target - or is it enough that the .pc files are?06:23
Stskeepsit should kinda be06:25
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lbtI've never looked at the source so not sure if it's more like gcc or like make06:27
Stskeepsdefine 'sb2 target'?06:27
lbt"sb2 zypper in pkgconfig"06:28
Stskeepsit should typically be there for build purposes06:28
Stskeepslike everything else in prjconf06:28
lbtbut make isn't in there06:28
lbtmake is in the SDK06:28
Stskeepsthat's where sb2 magic comes in :P06:29
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lbtyeah - hence the make/gcc comparison06:29
Stskeepspractically it should be there.. i guess06:29
Stskeepsok, need more coffee06:29
lbtyeah ... I think it doesn't need to be there but sb2 needs to handle the .pc files06:30
Stskeepsnormally you run pkg-config --cflags for instance06:30
lbtyep - but sb2 will redirect access to pc files06:30
Stskeepswell, it'll use the target ones06:31
lbtso if pkgconfig is in SDK (not target) then it's accelerated06:31
lbtwhich is good06:31
lbtunless it does spooky crap .... :D06:31
lbtso I was mainly wondering if it was totally controlled by .pc files - which would be awfully sensible06:32
* lbt goes to look at the src06:32
Stskeepsanyway, outcome of sb2 talk yesterday: interested in working with establishing sb2 as a proper outside-nokia product, also making wrappers for sdk-like behaviour06:32
Stskeepsproper outside-nokia product as in wiki, mailing list, etc06:33
lbtMore than happy to help them get setup on mer infra as an "incubated" project06:34
Stskeepsyeah, i offered that too06:34
Stskeepswe need to help validate the latest stable versions06:34
lbtyep - we're a power user and provide QA feedback so quite a good partnership06:35
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lbtalterego: ping - can you enable svg upload on the wiki please06:41
Stskeepsi vote we do migration asap if possible..06:42
Stskeepsand ldap setup06:42
Stskeepsi'm getting tired of cleaning up spam06:42
lbtyeah - I was going to ask for a new DB dump but actually there's no need - I can use the existing one06:44
lbtto verify the import I mean06:44
lbtthen I can do LDAP and setup properly (also need gerrit LDAP)06:45
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Stskeepsgood morning sonach07:36
sonachStskeeps: good morning!07:36
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sonachStskeeps: have lbt and you arrived at home?07:40
Stskeepsi'm still in finland, going home for 8 hours or so and then to berlin for qt contributor summit07:41
lbtsonach: morning - I'm home07:41
sonachlbt: cool,I think i need your help about the MerOBS's publish problem :)07:41
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lbtsonach: OK, what's the problem (and I must admit - I need to check that the script actually does publish properly on my test systems)07:42
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sonachlbt: hmm, maybe tomorrow morning will be better time to diagnosis this since I can not access the OBS server ATM. long story short, in the /srv/obs/log/publisher.log, it seems fine, but under http://OBSFE_INT:82, there is nothing,07:45
lbtI'll check here and see if I can reproduce07:45
lbtyep - same here07:47
sonachlbt: OK. I just run your and 'zypper install createpos'. besides that, I shut down all VMs' firewalls:)07:47
lbtso it looks like the script missed something and I hadn't noticed yet07:48
sonachlbt: hmm, that's good, you can analyse this easily :)07:48
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dcthangStskeeps: Qt is still alive? It looks like no activities for that recently :P07:57
lbtQt ... !07:57
lbtwe just updated to Qt5 - it's one of the more active parts at the moment07:58
Stskeepsdcthang: yes, it is07:59
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Stskeepsthat hardly looks dead to me :)08:00
dcthanglbt: Can I select Qt 4.8 in the newest release?08:00
Stskeepsmer has qt 4.8.108:00
Stskeepsand qt5 alpha1 will be in next, though 4.8.1 is default08:00
lbtand they can co-exist (bug if they don't)08:00
dcthangah ok. that would be nice08:03
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Stskeepsswerden: what's exactly the problem with multitouch on wetab? in mer, we had a problem for a while but when we did the right xorg.conf, it worked perfectly (combined with xinput2 enabled qt)08:26
Stskeepson exopc at least, which should be == wetab08:27
dcthangStskeeps: Is Mer ported to Acer Iconnia?08:32
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Stskeepswhich specific model?08:32
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StskeepsE-P: welcome back from vacation :)08:41
dcthangAcer Iconia Tab A50008:41
E-PStskeeps: thanks, you are still in Finland?08:41
StskeepsE-P: yeah, for a couple of hours08:42
Stskeepsdcthang: ask on internal nomovok mailing lists, fairly sure you guys have one..08:42
Stskeepsfrom what i recall08:42
dcthangah ok08:42
StskeepsE-P: was actually in Jyväskylä in the weekend :)08:43
E-PStskeeps: damn, would had been nice to meet :)08:44
Stskeeps:nod: i should probably be in finland in a while again08:44
E-Phopefully you had a pleasent visit in here08:44
* Stskeeps looks over at lbt who made him walk several kilometers in bad shoes and rain08:44
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Stskeepsotherwise ok08:45
lbtdon't forget the observation tower....08:45
E-Pin Harju, next to the city center?08:46
Stskeepsyeah, probably08:47
E-Punfortunately Jyväskylä doesn't have much to see08:49
E-Pthe walking street with lot's of bars08:49
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iekkuE-P, but the nature near jkl is nice09:02
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sledgesgood morning09:10
Stskeepsmorn sledges09:14
sledgeshow are you, Stskeeps ?09:14
Stskeepsi'm okay, prepping for my trip back home, then flying again in the morning09:16
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sledgesshoot, globetrotting!09:17
sledgesif one wanted to work/expand/popularise/promote Mer/Lipstick[/Nemo], which companies/industry sectors could be the best target?09:21
Stskeepsany that somehow does interactive displays09:22
Stskeepsnot deepily embedded09:22
sledgesany instances? Nomovok, Pelagicore, ...09:23
sledgesdo you reckon an STB industry could be targetted?09:23
Stskeepswe have people doing stbs09:24
Stskeepsbut its smart stbs09:24
sledges"we" "have" ? :)09:25
lbtthere's a vendor doing this09:25
sledgesoh ok09:25
lbtsonach works for them09:25
* lbt adds "case studies" to his TODO list09:25
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rcghah.. todo lists... aren't these those things that tend to continuously grow until they become that large and confusing that you start a new one, but this time with the very intent to do everything you write there and keep it better organized?09:27
lbtrcg: waaat09:27
lbtare you spying on me.... I'm doing that right now!09:27
rcglbt: hehe, you never know ;P09:28
* lbt checks Mer's secret-squirrel surveilance mode09:29
vilpanrcg: it's funny and sad at the same time... I'm currently have 195 items, thinking rollover limit should be somewhere at 500. Maybe just plug your todo list into logrotate with size limit?09:38
rcglbt: :)09:39
rcgvilpan: yeah, indeed... well i'd prefer a ringbuffer that just overwrites the oldest entries09:40
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Stskeepsuse GTD09:42
vilpanI saw Lars Wirzenius has something called GTD for hackers. Looking at it is still in my personal TODO list, though09:43
lbtemacs ... org-mode09:49
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stefan_schmidt_wWhy do people always mention tools if concepts are up? :) GTD works fine with pen and paper09:51
lbtstefan_schmidt_w: because some tools are really good at enabling some concepts09:52
lbteg version control => "git is good, RCS is not"09:52
stefan_schmidt_wlbt: imho they quite often force people to change the original concepts :)09:52
lbtpossibly - GTD concepts on a computer would cope better with erase and sort than the same concept on (a single sheet of) paper09:53
vilpanstefan_schmidt_w: well, a tool should help you stick to the concept, provided the concept is implemented properly09:53
lbtso the tool and implementation influences the design09:54
lbtvilpan: equally, the tools may show you other things that are possible which may not have been apparent at conceptualisation phase09:54
lbtie technology-led09:54
stefan_schmidt_wvilpan: there we are: Implemented properly :)09:55
stefan_schmidt_wI'm only half serious here folks :)09:55
lbtinteresting water-cooler topic though09:55
lbtanyhow... a few mins more work before I afk for a while09:55
stefan_schmidt_wlbt: I'm using GTDFH here for quite some time and paper and some tomboy notes works best for me. It might be really different for others. And thats the point. Start with the concept and then look at the tools09:56
Stskeepsgtd isn't water cooler, it should be obligatory course for knowledge workers :P09:56
stefan_schmidt_wInstead of starting with a tool directly09:56
Stskeepsmakes work saner09:56
lbtStskeeps: *g* ... so emace *is* going in core!!!09:56
stefan_schmidt_wI'm in a meeting in some minutes as well :)09:56
lbtstefan_schmidt_w: I'm looking at org-mode to do some distributed gtd-style things too09:57
lbtbut .... now to actually gtd09:57
alteregoSVG upload?10:13
alteregoHow is that different from any other upload?10:13
alteregoOh I see.10:13
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alteregolbt: give it a go now :)10:15
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Stskeepsok, helsinki airport at 1pm is magical, so silent, no queues10:35
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sledges :) nothing better for me in Finland than Linux and a cappella!10:44
kimjuStskeeps, at 1am it is about the same, expect that it is dark..10:46
Stskeepssledges: was your hardware NEON capable, btw?10:47
sledgesimx53 CPU spec says amongst others: NEON SIMD media accelerator (it's a 1 GHz ARM Cortex-A8 CPU)10:49
Stskeepsi'm doing an experimental hardfp, neon, thumb2 port, so10:49
sledges;) bring it on10:50
sledgesthought it will need hardfp kernel 8)10:51
sledges(khm), ok!10:53
stefan_schmidt_wStskeeps: playin as in doing some real benchmarks against a softfloat system?10:53
Stskeepsstefan_schmidt_w: those already exist.. i'm more interested in memory usage with thumb210:53
stefan_schmidt_wStskeeps: All the ones I have seen are for specific cases but not normal load. :)10:54
stefan_schmidt_wStskeeps: hmm, you don't need hardfp for thumb2, do you?10:54
Stskeepsstefan_schmidt_w: in practice, the hardfloat port i did gained significant fps on mobile OS'es.. you could -feel- the change10:54
Stskeepsstefan_schmidt_w: nop, but ARM distro consensus is hardfp these days10:54
Stskeepsfor armv7+10:54
stefan_schmidt_wI know10:55
stefan_schmidt_wStskeeps: interesting that the speedup was that much10:55
Stskeepsi believe we'll see interesting things on x32 abi as well, for atom processors10:56
Stskeepsbecause it actually utilizes the floating point registers for function calls too10:56
Stskeepsanyway.. in terms of IVI i saw the worst thing yesterday in a taxi11:01
Stskeepsusing a mouse to control a display11:01
sledgesprobably it was a real mouse...11:01
alteregoI've set up dual heading with a new monitor yesterday. And now I'm starting to realise why Mice are useful. Having a trackpad to navigate between two displays is somewhat time consuming ..11:03
alteregoAlso, unity doesn't have any idea of main display context, maybe my active work should be on primary display and my assets and references for that job should be on the secondary display ..11:04
alteregoAaaaanyway ...11:04
StskeepsGTD, hardfloat and multimonitor interaction, we're sure getting around today11:04
* Stskeeps is looking forward to a week of just hacking next week, no travels11:05
alteregoYou and me both.11:06
Stskeepsand of course, driving course11:06
alteregoThough I've actually been having a good week, made a lot of progress on my current jobs, and customers seem impressed.11:07
Stskeepsall things considered i think i had a good week, and it was a good week for mer too11:10
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smokuStskeeps: how's your course?  any areas I should avoid? :>11:22
Stskeepssmoku: nowe bemowo, ratusz arsenal area11:23
Stskeepsi haven't run over anybody yet11:24
smokuright in the center?  good for you :)   it's good to learn in deep water11:24
Stskeepshe started me out by a couple of manuvering excersises on a parking lot and then threw me, at late evening/darkness into warsaw traffic11:24
Stskeepsso i had to learn quite quickly11:25
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smokudoh... webkitgtk3 is taking ages to build...11:27
Stskeepsadd my patches for -Wl,--no-keep-memory11:27
Stskeepswebkit is a freaking monster11:27
smokuwhich patches?11:28
Stskeepslook in my qtwebkit ones11:28
Stskeepsand apply similar method to yours11:28
Stskeepsis it mer or something else?11:28
Stskeepsif not mer, add -gdwarf-411:29
smokuit's mer11:30
smokuStskeeps:  - it builds fine on Mer but fails on Mer_Next - anything obvious to you?11:31
Stskeepscan you get me config.log ?11:31
Stskeepsalso, check [mer-general] Mer PRE-RELEASE 0.20120614.0.1 and see if any of the dependencies were touched11:31
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smokuStskeeps: any of these patches ?11:33
smoku01_lflags_as-needed.patch ?11:34
smokuconfig.log ?11:35
Stskeepsbasically the -Wl,--no-keep-memory is important11:35
Stskeepsit forces it to do io instead of heavy swap11:35
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alteregoHow are Samsung devices wrt getting mer/nemo on them?11:58
Stskeepsaftermarket hw adaptation is always a bitch..11:59
alteregoLooking forward to my next device, contemplating galaxy note 211:59
alteregoEither that or I'll wait and see what blackberry do, but that'll probably be impossible to hack.11:59
alteregoMaybe I'll just get an iPhone 5, lol ...11:59
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smokualterego: IMO HTC One X  is pretty good option if you are looking for modern, hackable device.   but insanely expensive so far...12:14
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alteregosmoku: m'kay, thanks for info.12:20
sledgesalterego, ; I got a spare GTA02 enclosure you'll need12:26
sledgesif it's to hack, it's to hack hard :))12:26
sledgeswooden phone? yes!
_olCan somebody connect a larger screen to GTA04? It has acceptable hardware, but its screen size id unacceptable.12:32
Stskeepsprobably, if it's beagleboard-ish12:32
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_olDoes it have some kind of non-standard connection to the display?12:34
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sledgesone moment12:35
alteregoI've got a reprap, I can print my own cases :)12:37
* alterego really needs to track down a pi ;)12:37
sledges_ol: "Well, it is possible to mount the GTA04-Custom board (one without connector and backlight driver for the 2.8 inch display) on a bigger motherboard and connect a different display. E.g. from Sharp. This motherboard usually carries a level shifter, backlight converter and touch screen controller since every display is different."12:37
sledgesalterego, you'll still need an LCD AFAIR12:39
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sledgeswow, reprap's awesome!! 8D12:46
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* sledges 'd like a printed case of N9 clone, put GTA04 +Mer inside and be merry :D12:48
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_olalterego: I've got RepRapPro Huxley. Which RepRap do you have?13:21
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_olsledges: I'm afraid, you won't be able to print N9 case. Printed parts look different than parts made by plastic moulding. You can see layers.13:25
sledges_ol, i wouldn't bet on a 1:1 printout, but a somewhat look-alike would do (bear in mind all fat GTA04/2 components inside would definitely not make such custom-N9 as slim already)13:27
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_olsledges: Then I'd better have something with real keyboard. And I'd like it to be larger, like Samsung Galaxy Note. And fill all remaining space in the large case with batteries. :-)14:00
sledgesyou are the architect! ;) whatever might suit whoever's needs looks like we got the means to do it :)14:06
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sledgesI think goldelico are in the direction to be able providing a service "build your own phone" :) they are missing for "enclosure engineers" i.e. appearance designers, currently leaving it to the community of wood-peckers and 3D printers :)14:08
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_olsledges: Yes, it would be great to print a phone on 3D printer. Much more challenging would be to print a phone with keyboard.14:11
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sledges_ol they are up for it already: :)14:22
sledgesas a proof-of-concept of course14:22
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phaeronStskeeps: o/14:23
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sledgesanother guy's printing as we speak:
_olIn think that GTA04 with current design makes no sense. It has hardware not better than N900 and much smaller screen. Why would I consider buying it if I can buy N900 on eBay for 200 euro?14:46
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sledgesThey got up GTA04 to 1GHz (not 800MHz anymore), depending on what phonecalls-making robot you want to make GTA04 has got more gadgets onboard, its further HW revs pending, and N900s will all get old/scratched soon :)14:57
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sledgesN900 CPU is 600MHz, and SoC is older14:59
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_olBut it has 32G onboard flash.15:00
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_olBot 64 times more than GTA04 has.15:00
wmaroneGTA04 was only being sold as a bare board, last I checked, and had no hardware keyboard ;)15:00
sledgeswmarone, we covered the keyboard bit above :)15:01
wmaronesaid board also cost 100$ more than my N900 did 3 years ago >.>15:01
_olAnd its screen is laughable. It would be acceptable like 10 years ago, but not now.15:01
sledgesI never said a new case design would have same horrid bevels, that's why GTA04 comes without a native case :)15:02
wmaroneI like the concept of the project, really, but it really needs more money to make a usable product15:02
_olAnd keeping it compatible with Freerunner case is a big mistake. Who needs that old case anyway?15:03
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sledgeswmarone, goldelico are not a company of a scale that of Nokia (well the latter might soon become as tiny as them :D) to bring low-volume costs down15:03
sledges_ol, case, LCD, antennas, speakers etc are all re-usable, hence again to keep costs down15:04
_olBut the cost is not acceptable either.15:04
sledgesit is a hackery ambition, not a "product of a future"15:04
sledgesand around the world there is a low-volume of people readying to pay for it [or donating, if out of time] to develop this HW further, we'll see what it brings15:05
_olSo how are they going to cover costs? Volume shipments to Museum of Computer History?15:06
sledges:) yes, a cornucopia of gta04s being shipped to a museum :))15:07
_olThere are things to improve right now. 1. Scratch the old case. Plastic is cheap anyway. 2. Use larger screen. 4" at least. Preferrably retina display. Or even better, offer a choice of different screens (and case sizes). Some people like it to be as small as N900, some like it to be as large as Samsung Galaxy Note.15:09
_olOptional keyboard will be a big plus, but not the size of the Freerunner case.15:10
sledgesyou could write this to their ml, good opinions always welcome. Especially if you or someone on this channel would like to put Nemo on it in the future (pick me! :))15:10
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_olDoes Nemo fit in 512M of flash?15:11
* sledges runs du -sh .../mer/nemo/nemo.rootfs/15:11
sledgesps, using a Cat 10 SD card wouldn't hurt either15:12
sledgesfor now anyhow a group of enthusiasts around the world are about to receive their first batch of gta04 and start hacking15:13
sledgesI wish I was richer to get one :))15:13
sledgesmaybe will wait until next gen, with hopefully points addressed in your saying, _ol15:13
sledgesjust about :))15:15
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* Stskeeps lands in warsaw16:15
Stskeepshello schmooster :)16:16
sledgesStskeeps, what always-on irc client are you using? :) ssh screen bitchx ? :))16:16
Stskeepssledges, irssi, ssh, mosh16:16
sledgesroger :)16:17
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iekkuStskeeps, good!16:38
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CosmoHillhi al17:28
Alison_ChaikenHey CosmoHill.17:29
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smokuStskeeps: should "osc copypac Mer:fake:Core ..." work on COBS?18:59
Stskeepssmoku: not sure about Core but Core:i586 should18:59
Stskeepsif Core doesn't work, i think it's a bug18:59
Stskeepsfile it please18:59
Stskeeps(sorry for asking you to file all these, it's basically to let our problems hang out in the open so we actually fix them out of embarassement :P)19:00
smokuboth Mer:fake:Core and Mer:fake:Core:i586 fail with 500: Internal Server Error19:00
Stskeepsand Mer.MDS: ?19:00
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smokuMer:MDS - 40419:01
smokuMer:fake:MDS - 50019:01
Stskeepsdot, not :19:01
smokuosc copypac Mer.MDS ... - 404: Not Found19:02
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smokulooks like you removed gpsd package from Next, so I need to pull it in19:03
Stskeepswe never had gpsd i woudl think?19:03
* Stskeeps looks19:03
Stskeepsdon't think we ever did?19:04
smokuI'm puzzled now19:04
smokutake a look at
Stskeepsi don't see it in installed packages?19:05
smokuit had build fine for Next_i586, but still fails od gpsd dependency on arm19:05
Stskeepsalso you had --disable-gpsd19:05
Stskeepsthat looks bizarre19:05
Stskeepsadd a || cat config.log after your ./configure ?19:06
Stskeeps./configure --blahblah || cat config.log19:06
smokuit was failing on Next_i586 too yesterday19:06
smokuand now that you noticed it has --disable-gpsd :/19:06
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sledgesStskeeps, do you know what company sonach works for? Couldn'ŧ get a hold of him today...20:15
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