Thursday, 2012-02-16

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sonachStskeeps: I have run MDS setup at about UTC 2:00.  So I have to grab everything down...02:48
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* Stskeeps is not having a terribly good morning05:55
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timophmore coffee?05:58
iekkuyes please05:59
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Stskeepsprobably needed yeah05:59
iekkuStskeeps, i wated 10 minutes to get my coffee and started wonder why i don't smell it. noticed that it's important to add water to the machine also...05:59
Stskeepsiekku: ah, yes05:59
iekkudoesn't sound promissing..06:00
Stskeepsiekku: i usually do the opposite forget to add coffee06:00
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sonachStskeeps: morning:)06:01
Stskeepsmorn :)06:02
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sonachStskeeps: although I met the "Ignored failure when building extensions, pure python modules will be used instead", I am setting-up MDS now. It is downloading mer-core/cario.06:02
Stskeepsso it's grabbing the source packages06:03
Stskeepsi'm hoping one day we can have MDS as part of platform SDK or something so there's zero setup needed06:03
sonachYes. Have you had your morning coffee already? :)06:04
Stskeepsyes, but i'm a little sick today so i'm not going to be very useful :/06:04
Stskeepsbut let's see how i feel later in the morning06:05
sonachhmm, maybe you work too hard. Having a rest could do great help,06:05
Stskeepshehe, maybe06:07
sonachand, is it necessary to break the setup process to modify the Makefile alike, in order to grab i586 and ARMv7l binaries only? Or just grab all the binaries?06:07
Stskeepsok, you see         rsync -aHx --verbose rsync://*:`cat obs-repos/latest.release` obs-repos06:08
Stskeepsin the Makeile?06:08
Stskeepsreplace with
Stskeepsthen it only grabs those two06:09
sonachOK, I will stop the process and modify the Makefile:)06:11
Stskeepsit is fully resume-able so you can stop the process without problem and re-start it06:12
Stskeepsi have sometimes bad internet connection too, so )06:12
sonachyes. At the same time, I want to download platform SDK too. Is the platformSDK-downloading resumable?06:13
Stskeepsyes, it should be06:13
Stskeepsif it's not, please tell lbt to make it ;)06:13
Stskeepsnokia had a irritating thing for a while where their SDK was like 1.4gb and not resume-able06:14
Stskeepsthat was very bad for developers06:14
sonachhmm, that is very bad...06:15
sonachand, how big is Mer's platform sdk?06:16
Stskeeps67.3mb right now06:16
Stskeepsso, not bad06:16
wmaronedownright tiny06:17
sonachvery good!06:17
timophStskeeps: planning to submit a paper to akademy? Mer might be a welcomed topic there since the spark should have just arrived then06:17
Stskeepswmarone: well, we don't have any targets within it so, that is pulled down afterwards06:20
Stskeepswmarone: sysroots will add a bit :)06:20
Stskeepstimoph: compare the dates of and
Stskeepsi'll give you one guess what i prioritise ;)06:21
Stskeepstimoph: send a mail to mer-general@ about akademy though, i'm sure we can send some people06:21
Stskeepshmm, there might be a 'PRODUCTISE.IN' in bangalore, india in december 201206:25
Stskeepsfor product developers, with origin in events06:26
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Stskeepsmorn khaled06:27
KhaledStskeeps: good morning, long time no see06:28
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Stskeepssonach: we're getting some loongson boards to test/validate the Mer MIPS port by the way06:45
Stskeepsso that should help things a bit06:45
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sonachStskeeps: Will gst be replaced by openmax later?06:50
Stskeepssonach: gst can use openmax rather06:50
Stskeepsgst isn't going away in the forseeable future :)06:50
sonachStskeeps: longson? Produced by china?06:52
Stskeepssonach: yes06:53
Stskeepssonach: i have a contact there and introduced mer06:53
Stskeepswe're also trying to talk to ingenic06:55
sonachStskeeps: ingenic? very good:)06:58
sonachGot some ingenic boards ?06:58
Stskeepsnot yet, one of the purposes to talk to them is to learn about their support for opengl es + ingenic chips06:59
Stskeepsand what their chips are capable of06:59
Stskeepsmany people were interested because of the 99 USD MIPS android tablet06:59
sonachthe 99 USD MIPS android tablet is ingenic?07:00
Stskeepsyes, as far as i can tell07:00
Stskeepsingenic xburst jz477007:00
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Stskeepsmorn phaeron07:04
phaeronthings starting to normalize again :D07:05
phaeronlbt: ping07:11
sonachStskeeps: Does Gstreamer have hardware requirement interface similar to openmax?07:12
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sonachStskeeps: that is to say, whether gst have standard hardware A/V acceleration framework?07:13
Stskeepssonach: no, it's basically an abstraction of video/audio, so you add plugins that can decode07:13
Stskeepsfor example on my n900 we have a "gst-dsp" plugin which decodes some types of video/audio using the DSP on the OMAP343007:14
Stskeepsit could also be software decoding plugins07:14
Stskeepsdecode or encode, that is07:14
sonachStskeeps: so these plug-ins is equal to openmax in function?07:14
Stskeepsopenmax is just an interface to use hardware to decode/encode without having to write software specifically for that chip, while gstreamer is a generic framework07:15
Stskeepskind of like opengl es is an interface to many different graphics chips07:15
sonachSo, if hi3716m does support openmax, gst should use it instead of writing our own plug-in. is that right?07:16
Maceranybody know if there are other places than login.defs or profiel where a umask would be set for sshd/ssh?07:16
Stskeepsbut i can't figure out if it supports it or not07:16
Macersftp and sshfs seems to be 0077 whereas locally both are 002207:17
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sonachStskeeps: OK. We will figure out this. thank you for the clarity:)07:17
phaeronStskeeps: it seems openmax can be plugged into a gst pipeline
Stskeepsphaeron: yes07:17
sonachphaeron: what does this mean?07:18
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phaeronsonach: you can use openmax as a part of a gstreamer pipeline07:18
Stskeepssonach: just what we just talked about :) that to decode in gstreamer, it can use openmax07:18
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StskeepsBTW, i've temporarily put any new validation checks for gerrit on backlog as i'm planning to reboot the OBS during this weekend07:33
sonachlbt: where to download platform SDK? "curl -O url_to_be_defined"...07:40
sonachso the wiki needs to be updated?07:41
Stskeepsyes, think we want to put it on a better url07:42
Stskeepsalongside mer release07:42
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Bostiklbt: FYI - I'm dragging my co-worker here, he's taking over the day-to-day Qt5 packaging maintenance and I'll lend my hand only when really necessary09:18
lbtBostik: great09:18
sonachlbt: There is no in mer-sdk...09:18
lbtsonach: what url?09:18
Bostikand as a neat bonus, another one finally figured out a workaround for the devious "touch events cause progressive lag" issue :)09:19
sonachlbt: ah, i see:)09:19
lbtsonach: :)09:19
lbtBostik: that sounds rather useful09:20
lbtBostik: it would be good if you could do the handover in here09:20
Bostikwill do, you'll see all the gritty details09:20
lbtyou know I tried to get involved pre-china but just got swamped09:21
lbtthis time around ... who knows09:21
BostikI've had my hands more than full since early December, so I do feel you09:21
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sonachlbt: when exit from chroot, the bind-mounts are all umounted on my ubuntu11.10 desktop. So it is safe:)09:30
lbtI'm going to finish up the new OBS and then wrap up the SDK09:32
lbtit should be just about useable at the moment - the main issue is doing an "osc build"09:32
lbtthat gets the architecture confused if you have an x86_64 desktop09:33
sonachmy desktop is 32 bit:)09:33
Stskeepsdefine confused09:33
lbtpython's os.uname() says it's x86_6409:34
Stskeepsokay, and that affects what?09:34
sonachlbt: So I still can try current SDK. But when you update the SDK, I have to download a new one, is that right?09:34
lbtthe osc build command line gets "linux32" prepended09:34
lbtsonach: eventually, if you need to09:34
Stskeepsok, got it09:34
sonachlbt: OK:)09:35
lbtStskeeps: yeah, I hack it but need to think of a proper fix09:35
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Aardis there osc for n900? :)09:54
Aardclothes shopping with wife, looking for something interesting to do09:56
phaeronosc is hardly interesting :)09:56
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lbtwhen you come back sonach: you can "zypper up" or "zypper in" too10:02
lbtphaeron: good morning10:02
Aardphaeron: no, but I could do some packaging10:06
phaeronwow that's desperate10:14
lbtAard: clothes selection is a complex technical problem.... plus you get hack-time points for helping out10:16
Aardlbt: it comes down to 'take', 'move', 'try' and 'buy'. not very challenging for me10:18
Aardquestions like 'you like it?' are rethorical, my answer is irrelevant10:18
lbtah, so basically you haven't solved the pattern match problem?10:20
lbtor gotten a good grasp on the control language syntax...10:20
Aardwhich control? :p10:20
phaeronwhy are linux headers in mer old .. 2.6.37 ?10:20
lbtAard: her of course10:21
lbtphaeron: Mer doesn't have kernel headers10:21
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Stskeepsyes we do10:21
lbtwe do?10:21
phaeronlbt: the glibc sanitized ones10:21
Stskeepslbt: userland has to build against -some- kernel headers10:21
Stskeepsphaeron: because chances are that if we upgrade to 3.0, we'll loose ability to run older kernels10:22
Aardhaving not too much to do with it is good. i just need to remove me beeing present...10:22
phaeronStskeeps: ok :(10:22
Stskeepsphaeron: any specific problem you're having?10:22
phaerontrying to compile a recent udisks version10:22
Stskeepsit's very new, 30 july 201110:23
phaeronyes introduced in 3.1 rc210:24
phaeronthis project exposes three problems : the old kernel headers , spidermonkey fails for arm , mer old libnl1 hangs configure on arm10:24
phaeroninterestingly spidermonkey fails for hardfp only not softfp10:25
Stskeepsspidermonkey failing, not surprising10:25
phaeronyes but why only hardfp ?10:25
Stskeepsbecause it uses a new ABI10:26
Stskeepswhich many projects haven't adjusted to10:26
phaeronvery weird error though ..10:26
phaeronStskeeps: and the third issue
Stskeepslast one, no clue, qemu interaction?10:28
phaeronStskeeps: yeah and I tried to hunt for the patch for js10:28
lbtStskeeps: when you have a minute can you give me the # numbers of your phosts from
phaeronStskeeps: probably qemu10:29
lbtI want to ask them about consolidation, switches and close locations10:29
Stskeepsokay, but consult me before asking them to do anything that'll incurr a cost10:30
lbtof course10:30
lbtasking for options and how to ensure that new machines are setup physically close to old ones to allow potential LAN10:30
phaeronlots of spec macros from fedora could be helpful for us as well10:34
Stskeepstask bugs..10:43
Stskeepsphaeron: btw, got it to work within obs10:46
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Stskeepszumbi: might be interesting for you too, building embedded systems without modifying rpm configuration or spec files11:01
zumbiStskeeps: ok, thanks11:01
Stskeepswithout any tools in the taret11:01
zumbiStskeeps: I'll have a look, I saw your mail about sysroots in the OBS ML11:02
zumbilooking great! :)11:02
zumbiI gotta go to meeting :)11:02
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zumbiStskeeps: well, not yet11:04
zumbiStskeeps: whats interesting from that acl build?11:04
zumbiStskeeps: is it a build using qemu static?11:04
Stskeepszumbi: i'm transparently cross building, there's no 'gcc', 'bash' etc in target, it acts like a fast arm machine11:04
Stskeepsi am not modifying package in any way11:04
zumbiis that SB2 patches?11:05
Stskeepsyeah, it's built using sb211:05
Stskeepsthe idea is the toolchain-core split, where toolchain is x86 and core is not self-hosted11:05
zumbiand is it faking native gcc with cross-gcc?11:05
Stskeepsit means i can build everything from a wireless router to a full netbook with same tools and ease of use11:06
zumbithere might be some corner cases where it fails11:06
Stskeepsprobably, yeah11:06
Stskeepsthis is just proof of concept11:06
Stskeepsi don't expect to be able to build full debian archive11:06
zumbiI am also bit worried on qemu magic by not detecting misalignments11:06
Stskeepsbut the fact we can do this without modifying packaging or do voodoo rpm configuration, is a good sign11:07
zumbiStskeeps: full debian archive would be great test :)11:07
zumbiStskeeps: yes, thats great, if I find the time I'll play with it11:07
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zumbigotta go now11:07
zumbithanks for all that fish :)11:08
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sonachlbt: In platform SdK, there is no sb2 or gcc,12:18
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Stskeepssonach: should be easy to install, zypper in scratchbox2 gcc glibc-devel12:20
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Stskeepssonach: we just wanted to provide a working 'mic' image creator and such and the infrastructure first12:21
sonachStskeeps: sdk's first step, only for creating image?12:22
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Stskeepsbecause we don't have good 'mic' packages for people12:22
Stskeepsso this one includes a working one12:22
Stskeepsnext week we start looking closer at scratchbox2 and gcc12:23
lbtsonach: you can use "osc build" too12:23
sonachIt is interesting that it can access network, but no ifconfig at all:)12:24
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sonachin my opinion, "osc" is used to build stuff on OBS. So, what is osc used for in platform SDK?12:25
sonachI am puzzled about this12:25
Stskeepssonach: platform sdk contains tools that's useful for a mer developer (and vendor developer)'s usual day to day activities12:26
Stskeepssonach: so the osc in platform sdk will always work with mer systems12:26
Stskeepsinstead of being a random one from ubuntu12:26
sonachah. I can understand this,because sdk can share the network connection with host PC and can access remote OBS:)12:27
Stskeepssonach: we will add things for building software without obs soon as well, but we needed some things to work first before we did that, which is the first version you see there12:27
sonachhmm, that is to say, osc will be removed in the end?12:27
lbtit won't be mandatory though12:27
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lbtthe sdk is supposed to be easily cleaned too12:28
sonachIn My POV, osc is useless for 'official' Platform SDK...12:28
lbtthat's OK12:28
sonachI think that platform SDK is used to build source code locally, and create image,12:29
lbtthere will be a variety of uses12:29
lbtand that use is there too12:29
lbtsonach: actually the SDK *is* an "osc build"12:29
Stskeepssonach: it's not useless in the big perspective, when you look beyond just one developer and into a team working together12:29
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lbtwe'll probably have some command like "sdk setup-to-build project/package"12:30
lbtwhich will be a lot like "osc build project/package"12:30
Stskeepsexample use case: do your software with scratchbox2 and gcc and so on, then upload with osc to team server to build12:30
lbtbut will put things into one of your SDKs12:30
sonachStskeeps: you are right, I forget that I should use osc to commit my code to OBS server, so I need a stable osc different from linux distro(such as ubuntu,fedora...)12:32
Stskeepssonach: yeah, because those are very often old12:32
sonachStskeeps: I find that "Retrieving: gcc-4.6.3-1.19.i486.rpm". What should I do if I want to build for ARM?12:33
Stskeepssonach: that's what we're working on next week :)12:34
sonachOK:) so now I can test is to build for X86?12:34
sonachI think sb2 will be the main point to support cross-compilation?12:35
Stskeepswe got delayed because we had to deploy sb2 on OBS side and it takes a little longer than expected12:35
sonach"deploy sb2 on OBS" is for MDS?12:35
Stskeepsit's for actually cross building inside our build servers12:36
Stskeepsthe combination of sb2 and OBS is completely new technology12:36
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StskeepsMDS is a thing that helps people use mer in their build systems without having always to communicate with our main servers12:37
sonachah, new technology:) Now I don't quite understand the cross-compilation process of OBS, let alone sb2. Is that any wiki page explains those?12:37
Stskeepsi should probably do a diagram, but it is a bit hard to understand for many12:38
sonachStskeeps: Several days ago, we had a disscussion with meego's toolchain maintainer, she explained that OBS uses qemu to do cross-compilation... but I am puzzled about this...12:39
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sonachAnyway, If you have worked out the diagram, please tell me:) I think I should try to understand this:)12:40
Stskeepssonach: long story short: Scratchbox2 is a technology that can change the perception of file system for a process (for example, make /bin point to /target/bin), or choose another binary to execute when a command is executed (for example gcc to ARM cross compiler)12:40
Stskeepssonach: expanding a bit on this you can make a fake world that can run ARM binaries in qemu, but for many things like compiler, use X86 binaries instead12:41
Stskeepsso very little is built with emulation12:41
Stskeepsit's a bit high tech :)12:42
sonachit really is!12:50
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lbtphaeron: do you want to help on the obs redirect mess then13:41
phaeronlbt: I can try , if you haven't tangled it up already :D13:41
lbtso adrian says they run a similar setup13:42
lbtcheck production.rb for webui and api13:42
lbtwebui seems to be the issue13:42
phaeronlet me jump ssh first13:43
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lbthey InformatiQ13:45
InformatiQlbt: private13:46
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jeremiahI know this isn't necessarily the right place to ask, but where is the "canonical" git repo for mic? github or gitorious.14:29
Stskeepsgithub is the one i know of14:30
Stskeepsthat the author pointed us to14:30
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jeremiahah, cool14:32
jeremiahThe versions look to be the same judging by the git log14:32
jeremiahAnd I imagine that they just pushed it to github when their LF repos went down.14:32
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lbtphaeron : process 20120216-bigirojo SR#4377 ERROR14:49
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phaeronlbt: was away15:20
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lbtalterego: ping16:07
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alteregolbt: hi, :)16:39
lbtso ... preparing for the wiki move16:39
alteregoYes, so what dist/ver is the target machine running?16:40
* alterego checks his server version16:40
alteregoHrm, I'm on 516:40
alteregoOh well.16:40
alteregoSo, firstly I guess apt-get installing media wiki and setting it up in apache properly.16:41
alteregoThen copying over the configuration and possibly adapting from my setup16:44
alteregoThen copying over a current version of the database and switching over the DNS16:44
alteregoSo, how would you like to proceed :)16:44
alteregoI think if we get to the point of configuration today. Then possibly do the DNS switch tomorrow.16:45
lbt#1 get you logged in16:45
alteregoI think if we do a test restoration of the database before the DNS switch, then we can do the DNS switch, and I'll offline my instance, then we do another restore and wait until the DNS propogates.16:46
Stskeepsremember backup of database before doing all this..16:46
alteregoYeah :P16:46
alteregoI've got a full backup of the system from lastnight anyway.16:47
Stskeeps(spark pre-order)16:54
vgradeMer OS16:59
Stskeepsclose enough17:00
Stskeepsif you fetch him, Mer Core is the usual name17:00
Stskeepswe should really have a 'powered by mer core'17:00
* Stskeeps ponders idly17:02
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lbtyou can look at cobs redirect17:09
Stskeepslaggy cnnection atm, not going to be good for me or the cobs17:11
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bigbluehatArt Technica article on boot2gecko…for the curious :)
Stskeepsi'm not underestimating b2g fwiw, but they do have fatal dependencies on android17:28
Stskeepsno matter how much they try and slice and dice it17:29
Stskeepsbut they might actually get some devices out with that17:30
alteregoStskeeps: how small can we get Mer do you think?17:31
Stskeepsalterego: in what timeframe?17:31
alteregoSay if I wanted a dist < 2M using busybox etc, for a real minimal, would using mer as a base be a good idea?17:31
w00trm -rf ALL the things!17:31
Stskeepsi have some wet dreams about the core to rule all cores, but let's see how bad it gets17:31
Stskeepsalterego: well, the split-toolchain-core thing i'm working on certainly has the ability to do funky things17:32
alteregoBasically, if it can build uclibc and busybox I'm happy ;)17:32
Stskeepsthat's one of the ideas..17:32
alteregoI also need to contend with a weird fs image format. But meh :)17:33
bigbluehatStskeeps: keep up the greatness :) I do think a primary (single?) mobile linux core makes sense17:33
bigbluehatthe one in webOS is likely quite different…for example17:33
bigbluehatwho knows17:33
Stskeepsbigbluehat: the big challenge would be binary compatibility17:33
bigbluehatah, true17:33
Stskeepsand that's why i don't promise it17:33
alteregoOh, and this is also an odd processor. Can't remember what it is.17:33
alteregoSome random RISC architecture.17:33
alteregoOh wait, no, they're ARM7s17:34
Stskeepsi think the problem is when you go to no-mmu stuff17:35
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bigbluehatgood plan on subjugating promises to reality :)17:35
bigbluehatbut here's hoping :)17:36
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alteregoIt probably is mmu-less, but I'll have to check when the new units come in.17:36
bigbluehatalso, what are the chances I'll someday be able to run Mer on the HP TouchPad I got yesterday?17:36
bigbluehatit's currently dual booting webOS and that other OS people seem to like17:36
alteregoneat :)17:41
vgrademake,play,live needsa bigger server17:43
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Stskeepsit crashed already17:44
sroedalI was able to register in time :p17:44
sroedalgreat page, loved the message17:44
Stskeepsat least it's the good kind of preorder page, the one that doesn't take your credit card details17:46
Stskeepsvgrade: we should really try qt5 with eglfs on that device..17:47
bigbluehatStskeeps: tnx for the link…guessing that is Mer underneath nemo?17:47
Stskeepsbigbluehat: yeah17:48
Stskeepsno graphics acceleration17:48
bigbluehatah. seemed to fair relatively well without it17:48
bigbluehatAndroid 2.3 (CM7) is pretty snappy on the HPTP17:48
Stskeepsyeah, but it has graphics accel17:48
sroedalStskeeps: I'm definitely going to try qt5 with eglfs on it17:49
bigbluehatwebOS feels sluggish after you use the catalog for a long time…which I did this morning :)17:49
bigbluehatStskeeps: right. which makes this an even more promising demo :)17:49
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Stskeepssroedal: at least there's framebuffer mali drivers readily downloadable,
sroedalStskeeps: great, also curious what the limadriver project will lead to...17:51
Stskeeps( )17:51
Stskeepsi do ponder how much mali devices share binaries though17:51
sroedalwithout an open driver it will be hard to get wayland on there17:52
Stskeepsyeah, sadly17:52
sroedalunless arm suddenly decide to support it17:52
* w00t eyes sroedal17:52
Stskeepswell, at least ST-E used to have a wayland compositor on top of mali, so it ought to be possible17:53
sroedalStskeeps: ok?17:53
Stskeepsbut this was before black friday17:53
Stskeeps( mentions it)17:54
sroedalof course it's possible for them to support wayland, it's just unlikely that arm will put in the effort voluntarily17:54
sroedalunless there's some customers paying for it17:54
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sroedalStskeeps: ok, interesting17:55
sroedalbut I guess ST-E aren't involved with the Spark hardware17:56
Stskeepsbut they are involved with linaro..17:56
Stskeepseither way, framebuffer gles is better than nothing17:56
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alex____I need the link to the interview of the spark society founder18:00
lbtalterego: ping - try again?18:01
alex____thx a lot18:01
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alex____bye and sorry for the intrusion18:02
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vgradeStskeeps, eglfs, is that what qtonpi is using18:03
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Stskeepsvgrade: yeah, for instance18:03
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lbtvgrade: not sure that ml thread is giving the right message18:04
vgradeyea, I  remember Donalds article,
vgradelbt, re-reads18:05
Stskeepslbt: IVI?18:05
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lbtjust replying18:06
Stskeepsi think it's fine, the idea is anyway to be able to utilize qtonpi efforts on mer18:06
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Stskeepsand there's other ivi demos around the place18:06
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lbtyep - I just want a clear "IVI is important to Mer and we welcome IVI interest groups"18:15
Stskeepsmakes sense18:16
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lbtrather than "Carsten actually just answered ....about IVI Mer - that there is NOT going to be such vertical in the future" which although accurate is potentially misleading on a glancing read :)18:16
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Stskeepsyeah, i think i followed up in that thread too18:18
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lbtah, so you did - that didn't get filed into the mer folder18:20
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vgradelbt, still ok to have that IVI page on the wiki18:25
lbtfor sure18:26
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Stskeepslbt: we're keeping access logs on right?19:00
lbtsafer to say we're not actively deleting them19:01
lbtlogrotate though...19:01
Stskeepswe should do some statistics about how many visit merproject.org19:01
Stskeepsif anything, to get a sense of reality19:02
alterego10 unique visitors :P19:02
alteregoI can do some stats on wiki.merproject.org19:02
alteregoWhich is probably more interesting no?19:02
Stskeepswiki could be interesting too19:02
alterego1181204 accesses.19:03
alteregoErm, I should probably install some proper access log reader to get better stats.19:04
alteregounique ips?19:05
Stskeepsi guess that's one way19:05
lbtweb log analysis is a career19:05
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alterego34593 - unique ip hits.19:08
alteregoFrom the 4th of Oct 2011 to now.19:08
alteregoI had a really nice ruby script a long time ago that I wrote that did all this stat generation stuff.19:09
alteregoWell, I managed to prototype my own arduino compatible circuit on a breadboard :)19:13
alteregoAnd program it :)19:13
alteregoThe serial port on the N900 under the battery is TTL isn't it?19:14
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Stskeepsdon't risk it19:15
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alteregoBut I want it to be my home automation server :P19:16
Stskeepsget a pi or a beaglebone :P19:16
alteregoHmm, not a bad idea.19:16
alteregoA Pi would be the best bet for sure. When they're available ;)19:17
ali1234it's almost certainly TTL19:17
Stskeepsoh nice, referring to in the spark preorder confirmation email19:17
Stskeepsthat should help stats19:17
alteregoI can check anyway, got my scope.19:17
Stskeepsalterego: hint: rd mode, serial-console rd flag before trying the scope19:18
alteregoStskeeps: of course ;)19:18
alteregoAlternatively I could use my USB->TTL lead with the N900, but I can never be arsed to piss around with hostmode.19:18
ali1234you generally power your level shifter from the same header anyway19:18
ali1234you might be able to make the USB port do serial19:19
ali1234i think i checked this before and it wasn't possible19:20
Stskeepsdon't bother, just connect up the pads19:20
Stskeepsthe problem is power supply during connectivity19:21
alteregoWell, both units will be powered19:22
ali1234you still need a battery in the N90019:22
ali1234or a fake battery19:23
alteregoSure, I'll just use teeny weenie wires :)19:23
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alteregoOr take it apart and poke the out of something.19:23
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alteregoMy other idea, is to use RF links between each home automation "node" and then have the N900 or a server able to access that "network".19:27
alteregoI quite like that idea, because it's more of a challange, but the range of the RF tranceivers probably isn't that great.19:27
ali1234bluetooth will cover most of a house at low bitrates19:28
alteregoNot my house -_-19:28
alteregoI have 3 stories and BT doesn't reach from the ground to top floor (annoyingly my main room ;)19:28
ali1234something slower will cover more19:29
alteregoAnother idea is to employ something like those PLC (power line) ethernet bridges that turn your homes' mains electrical circuit into a network.19:29
alteregoIf I could build one cheap enough I'd be interested in doing that.19:30
ali1234use X10?19:30
ali1234oh, those are wireless19:30
alteregoOh, that looks perfect ..19:31
ali1234how come no one made a system like X10 that communicates over power lines?19:31
alteregoali1234: they have19:31
ali1234seems like a perfect match19:31
alteregoX10 is over power lines.19:31
ali1234oh, cool. i thought it was19:31
ali1234but for some reason i thought i was wrong19:31
alteregoLets se if I can find some X10 compatible ics19:32
alteregoHeh, found the same article ;)19:33
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alteregoVery simplistic protocol.19:36
alteregoAnyway, that's all food for thought, thanks :)19:39
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Stskeepslo AndrewFBlack19:49
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AndrewFBlackStskeeps: Can I just by the Zenithink C71 tablet add install Mer on it lol20:01
AndrewFBlacklooks to be the Tablet the Spark is based on20:01
* _av500_ had an allwinner a10 running ICS in his hands yesterday20:01
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: probably ;)20:02
Stskeeps_av500_: well, that sounds good for the kernel version20:02
_av500_Stskeeps: i have seen android run on kernels from the middle ages :)20:03
_av500_kernels are overrated20:03
* lbt runs a 2.2 kernel20:04
AndrewFBlackIs the Spark just the Zenithink C71 tablet with Mer on it or does it just look like the Zenithink C7120:06
_av500_it is20:06
kimjulbt, some linux based appliance?20:06
AndrewFBlackDon't want to be rude of Spark people are on here by why the big price increase?20:06
lbtkimju: yes. Empeg car stereo20:06
lbtAndrewFBlack: lack of scale20:06
_av500_lbt: nice :)20:07
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* _av500_ should revive his NEO35 car mp3 player20:07
AndrewFBlacklbt: what do you mean?20:07
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_av500_AndrewFBlack: smaller order amount20:07
_av500_only a few geeks20:08
lbtAndrewFBlack: we have little idea of how much it costs to manage a small product in retail. Spark will probably lose money at that price20:08
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: i think part might be import, in some countries VAT, warranty, etc..20:08
vgrade_av500_ , was it this one? I can't find a kernel yet20:09
AndrewFBlacklbt: If you ordered then retail for $130 which i've seen them that low.  its like a $200 markup to install Free Software.20:09
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: but yeah, it's a bit of a increase, but you have to calculate in the effort spent on it being pushed back the communities building it20:09
Stskeeps(i'm not involved with it)20:10
_av500_vgrade: ?20:10
lbtAndrewFBlack: yes it is. And?20:10
AndrewFBlackStskeeps: yeah I know20:10
vgradeAndrewFBlack, ask aseigo20:10
lbtfeel free to buy an Apple :)20:10
vgradeAndrewFBlack, about price20:10
vgrade_av500_, A1020:10
AndrewFBlacklbt: I have 4 already thanks.  I also have every Maemo Tablet ever made :)20:10
lbtAndrewFBlack: there is no way a production run that small can be price competitive20:11
lbtit's just economics20:11
lbtmeasure it a different way20:11
lbtwhat's your pay per day?20:11
_av500_vgrade: some prototype we have20:11
lbtis it worth a few hours of your time to contribute to an open source project?20:12
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vgradeah, ok.
lbtAndrewFBlack: is that a better way to evaluate the cost?20:12
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lbtwhat will they give you back for your $200?20:12
lbtwill they work on opening hw drivers?20:12
lbtso it's not the same equation as buying a mass market device20:13
Stskeepslbt, you're ranting a bit..20:13
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Stskeepsit should be better explained on the spark website reasons for the markup, considering similar model down to the design and colours can be found for a lot less20:14
Stskeepsand they explained this somewhere but i can't find it right now20:15
AndrewFBlacklbt: I guess I just think its a little high markup, but I'm sure users that wouldn't know how to install Mer on it if a version was available for it wouldn't mind paying the extra money.20:15
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lbtAndrewFBlack: yeah - I'm just rather happy to see their approach to the market20:16
Stskeepsactually, they started at 270 USD and now they're saying around 20020:16
Stskeepsso i think they realised the markup was too high20:16
lbtequally if they got more response and re-evaluated volume they may get better deals20:17
AndrewFBlackSites doesn't list USD its Euros or GBP cna't remember the symbols lol20:17
lbtTarget retail price of €20020:18
Stskeepsbut anyway, the point is: compared to android where you pay with your user data for a 'free system', you instead pay into the communities developing the software20:18
Stskeepsso that's a good reason for the markup, maybe not the best global marketing strategy :)20:18
AndrewFBlackwhat do you mean pay into the communities developing the software, isn't the money for the tablet just going to the people who are installing the OS on the tablets?20:19
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: nop, they're pushing them back into plasma active community as an example20:20
lbtfwiw they're looking to fund it all back to OSS20:20
Stskeepsvgrade: ah, there it was20:20
Stskeepsread vgrade's url :)20:20
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: one example of what they would do could for example be sponsoring servers for mer, as they base on our work20:21
AndrewFBlackStskeeps: I didn't see that listed anywhere that changes things20:21
vgradeand my Ferrari20:21
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: :nod: they should be more public about that, and sponsoring vgrade's ferrari20:21
lbthmm that's a good point - asiego already talked about funding Mer .... I hadn't forgotten but I wasn't thinking of it in this discussion20:22
lbtvgrade: ferrari...? Wuss. Get a Tiv !20:22
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AndrewFBlackI was thinking someone was buying $130 tablets, taking a few hours to install Mer and Plasma Display and adding $200.20:22
Stskeepsnop, it's bigger than that20:23
Stskeepsor at least if we trust them on their words20:23
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AndrewFBlackI would like to see them offer then to developers at cost, I think that might do more for some people.20:24
Stskeepsthey should really note that aspect better20:25
lbtAndrewFBlack: I guess the think is ... how many devs pay full price for apple equipment?20:25
lbtsure there are cases where they should (and will) support developers20:26
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: i think sadly that for startups giving rebates to developers is not that easy in this economic environment :/20:26
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: best thing that they can do is reserve spots in orders so they have them early20:26
lbtbut there are plenty of devs who throw a *lot* of money at gadgets and wish they were more open20:26
lbtthis is a gadget that *is* more open .... and we want it to be cheaper?20:27
vgradebut the device is aimed at devs20:27
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Sage_X-Fade: sync ping20:29
Stskeepseither way, it's good to see someone dare to launch anything with mer ;)20:30
AndrewFBlackI have paid for some of my Dev Devices but most I have goten for cheap or free.20:30
AndrewFBlackStskeeps: I'm happy to see it launch to20:30
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StskeepsAndrewFBlack: btw, were you into theme design only or into web design to?20:32
AndrewFBlackActive Plasma look but I would really perfer goold old hildon I think lol20:32
AndrewFBlackStskeeps: theme and web design20:32
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Stskeepsyou could run cordia on there probably, at least apps side20:32
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StskeepsAndrewFBlack: if you have any sort of time and if you want to, i'd really appreciate some help on the mer website20:33
Stskeepsit's straight to the point at the moment but not terribly informative20:33
Stskeepsor deep20:34
AndrewFBlackStskeeps: I have both, you wanting to add some new features to site or just change the look/layout20:35
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: i think a bit of both, stay with the mer general style but perhaps extend into more sections20:36
AndrewFBlack some of the ideas you still wanting?20:37
Stskeeps-ish .. this was a guy who came by with some ideas of the website.. it's terribly important to have basic information on the project, even links to wiki at times20:38
Stskeepsso, just for good measure: we're presenting a linux core and we try to refer within the site to the people and contributors within mer, as well as vendors within the mer ecosystem20:39
Stskeepsand giving people enough info to dive into wiki, start using mer, etc20:39
Stskeeps.. as the purpose of the website20:39
Stskeepswe're not trying to present ourselves to endusers, but instead to vendors (companies, ui projects, hardware adaptation efforts, or lone hackers using mer to make a interactive sign)20:40
Stskeeps(just brainstorming)20:40
AndrewFBlackright now there is bugzilla and wiki.  Do you want to add any forums?20:43
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Stskeepsno, we have mailing lists20:44
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Stskeepswe have bugzilla, wiki, review.merproject.org20:44
AndrewFBlackDo you want a section that highlights End User Products, Like Nemo and Codia?20:44
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Stskeepsi think some kind of vendor list would be good20:45
vgrade"Powered by Mer Core"20:46
Stskeepsfor example, but vendors can be consultancies within OBS, Mer systems, etc..20:46
AndrewFBlackGot a preferance on what software runs the website?20:46
lbtshould run on debian20:47
lbteasy to install security updates20:47
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: well, what's your preferred tool?20:47
AndrewFBlackStskeeps: I normally use Joomla, sometimes Drupal makes for easy theming, can bridge your user database to alot of other things like bugzilla20:49 uses Migard20:50
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lbtfrom a functional pov I think we mainly want blog and some content structure20:52
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lbteither drupal or joomla would be perfectly capable - whichever is easier to setup and maintain.20:53
AndrewFBlackJoomla is easier to me.20:54
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lbtone reason for using it for blogs is that chinese can't see mainstream blog services20:54
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AndrewFBlackSo we want a blog, information about Mer page, Vendor List, links to wiki and bugzilla.  anything else20:59
StskeepsPeople, perhaps20:59
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lbthmm yeah21:00
lbtAndrewFBlack: what's your feeling about django?21:00
AndrewFBlackNever used it21:01
lbtah well :)21:01
Stskeepslooks heavy21:01
Stskeepsfor non-python coders21:01
lbtthere are CMS built with it21:02
lbtand we know it very well (phaeron and I)21:02
Stskeepsthat's true, but ideally you two shouldn't be doing web :)21:02
bigbluehatStskeeps: I recommend HTML :)21:03
lbtHTML5 surely21:03
Stskeepsi'm inclined towards joomla or drupal, midgard not so much, as it's easier to find people who know how to work with it amongst contributors21:03
bigbluehathow much do you really need/want?21:03
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bigbluehatbasic intro, blog maybe, wiki, etc you already have21:03
lbtbigbluehat: not much at all ... see backlog21:04
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bigbluehatright…saw most of it21:04
Stskeepsstill a lot of templating work21:04
bigbluehatI'd recommend plain HTML21:04
bigbluehatand apply the template to everything else21:04
Stskeepsplain html has issues when changing template around ;)21:04
bigbluehatmake it a github project :)21:04
bigbluehatand let people fork i21:04
lbtthat's an idea21:05
lbtnot a good one... but it's an idead :P21:05
* Stskeeps should get some sleep21:05
bigbluehatget some Stskeeps21:05
lbtthe first thing is probably a simple css'able view that can work on desktop and device21:06
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: if you'd like to call a irc meeting to discuss website content you're more than welcome, just lay out some directions and basic templates i guess21:06
AndrewFBlackdjangoCMS is based off django it seems21:06
lbtAndrewFBlack: yes21:06
Stskeepsah, yeah, good point: useful on desktop and device21:06
Stskeepsor at least somehow templateable to fit both21:07
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AndrewFBlackStskeeps: making it fit both desktop and device is easy with any of the ways we have talked about21:09
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