Friday, 2012-02-10

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KhaledI heard that tegra and omap are the easiest to port to01:59
wmarone_yes you did, about a day ago02:00
wmarone_or was it two?02:00
Khaledaccording to reviwers the transformer prime is the best tablet thats no the ipad02:00
Khaledwe really need to work on that whih is tegra302:01
KhaledI mean whoever is porting to non nokia devices this should be the tablet of focus02:02
wmarone_anyone can try to port to a device if they wish02:03
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wmarone_the transformer prime is currently crippled with a signed and locked bootloader02:04
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KhaledI belive asus said they will get it unlocked02:11
wmarone_yes, sometime this month02:12
wmarone_no point in looking at it until then, no urge to buy a device that's crippled like that02:13
Khaledbut it is currently the best so no efforts should be wasted on medicore tablets02:14
wmarone_I don't have one so I don't particularly care02:15
Khaledwhat is the most usable tablet running mer right now?02:15
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wmarone_wetab I suspect02:24
wmarone_everything else is still experimental or being worked on02:24
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Khaledwetab? wasnt that fromwi02:37
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StskeepsKhaled: i just woke up at 4am for no reason, but: there's no preferential devices in Mer and we don't have specific hardware focuses, people can waste their time on random hardware all they want, it doesn't hold back the core02:52
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Stskeepslbt: systemd usage in what context? OBS??05:51
Alison_ChaikenJust was looking at the merproject main web page.   Wow, it's beautiful!    Hats off to whoever designed it.05:54
Stskeepswe had old artwork so that was reused (logo, background), and the web page design is by someone off the street who came by and contributed it05:56
Stskeepsbut yeah, it's beautiful artwork, i just wish sometimes i had in higher resolution ;)05:57
timophit is06:00
* timoph uses it as his desktop background06:00
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Alison_ChaikenI think I see Steven Elop there at the helm.06:18
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Stskeepshimamura_: ping06:45
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StskeepsKhaled: there's no preferential devices in Mer and we don't have specific hardware focuses, people can waste their time on random hardware all they want. we don't push a certain piece of hardware and will not, as it will skew things06:56
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Stskeepsand of course he's not around :P06:58
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Stskeepstimoph_: btw, platform SDK and tools repo is on my schedule for this weekend07:25
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Sage_lbt: I just have to love your kernel config check script :)07:39
Sage_That is so nice07:40
Stskeepsif username == 'sage': fail() ?07:40
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Sage_if user_didnt_check_options == fail :)07:40
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Sage_Stskeeps: I think that was close as well ;)07:41
Sage_timoph: ;)07:42
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timophSage_: x)07:43
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Sage_lbt: seen this happening before with the new kernel packaging?07:47
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* Stskeeps submits his SB2-OBS patches for review08:34
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Stskeepsposted my SB2-OBS patches for review,
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* Stskeeps ponders idly if lbt_ is awake08:44
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* rantom boots N900 with Mer on it, opens bugzilla and makes some coffee09:01
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* Sage_ starts waiting for bug reports from rantom 09:03
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Sage_Stskeeps: looks good09:13
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Stskeepsquite satisfied with this release so far,
lbt_morning Stskeeps ... awake now.... ish09:17
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Stskeepslbt_: what was the systemd issues you were having?09:17
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lbt_on suse09:17
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Stskeepsyes, but in what context?09:17
lbtstarting apache as a systemd daemon09:17
lbtand having to look in /var/log/messages for apache errors09:18
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lbtjust getting used to that kind of change is all09:18
lbtmainly a real PITA when you just need to get stuff done :)09:19
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Stskeepsi've rebased my sb2-obs patches and mailed them upstream09:20
Stskeepsfor review/comments09:20
Stskeepsnext step is cobs/mer obs deployment of the packaging09:20
lbtphaeron did a lot of that last night09:20
lbtI have a couple of vms on the slx machine09:20
lbtso we can do trial deployments09:20
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Stskeepsi also exported 0.0.3 which i will officially announce once we have all the pieces in place09:21
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lbtI need to make coffee and clear the driveway of snow09:22
Stskeepsi was pondering on coffee too09:22
lbtbbiab then09:22
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* Stskeeps offers lbt hot chocolate09:53
lbtoddly iced-tea feels more like it :)09:54
lbtbut yay for automation !!09:54
Stskeepsi'm pondering how to structure tools in mer09:55
Stskeepsseperate obs project, for sure,09:55
Stskeeps.. built against the mer targets?09:55
lbtobs builds against suse09:56
Stskeepsso we need a split, tools and tools:sdk and tools:useful?09:56
lbtso.... why?09:56
Stskeepswell, okay, so, i'd like to get platform sdk on the road this weekend09:56
Stskeepsand release it alongside next mer release09:57
lbtwhat criteria do we use to split?09:57
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lbtyep, I agree with that09:57
lbtmorning bergie09:57
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Stskeepsthat means we need to put somewhere, so CI-obs can use them09:58
lbtwe do want tools that run in build vs tools that run on device09:58
lbteg gfx-checks09:58
lbtMer:Tools iirc09:58
Stskeepsok, so Mer:Tools build not only for Mer?09:59
Stskeepsand typically non-target09:59
Stskeepshow do we want to adminster them? put them in fakeobs + git?10:01
Stskeepsor treat 'tools' as a vendor10:01
lbtno. not a vendor10:01
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lbtI think we should have the majority built against Mer10:01
lbtto run in the sdk10:01
lbtthere may be one or two that build against other distros but I think that's too costly for us10:02
Stskeepsso, if it has to get released alongside mer, i should have them in git and a seperate obs project10:02
Stskeepsand we submit changes like we do with core10:02
lbtwe should think about what we mean by the SDK and released alongside10:02
lbtversion N+1 of Mer should use the version N of the SDKK10:03
lbtuse==be built by/on10:03
lbtMer, not Tools10:03
lbtwe may need to release Tools during a Mer cycle10:03
lbtso I see them discrete10:03
lbtindependent but usually synchronised10:04
Stskeepsany good reason for N+1 and N? and define 'built by'10:04
bergiehi lbt10:04
lbtthe SDK on my desktop and in the IMG and OBS workers is version N10:05
Stskeepsyeah, okay10:05
StskeepsOBS workers?10:06
Stskeepsthinking build and obs?10:06
lbtmmm ISTR something that made me think that10:07
lbtbut it may not make sense10:07
Stskeepsit can make sense to some degree10:07
Stskeepsbut okay, i understand why N and N+1 makes sense now10:07
lbtand actually that should be fairly easy to do10:08
Stskeepsyeah, that's what you think..10:08
lbtwell, it should be ... if it's not that's a bug10:08
lbtbut... moving on10:09
Stskeepslong story short i don't currently have access to latest binaries from last full release in my CI obs10:09
Stskeepsi can get it, but i don't currently10:09
lbtnb exists10:09
lbtit's on the IMG phost10:10
Stskeepsyeah, i know10:10
lbtthe last section10:10
lbtwe should do that from a true Mer git for every tool10:11
Stskeepsish, some things we might want to actually be close to upstream?10:11
lbtday 1 I don't care if it's a no-hist repo made from a tarball10:11
lbtwe should have a public git clone for mer though10:12
Stskeeps('mic' as an example)10:12
lbtgerrit managed10:12
lbtand cloned from upstream10:12
lbtwith perdiodic pulls from upstream10:12
Stskeepsjust remember to keep it easy to track :)10:12
lbtyeah - this should be how core ends up too10:13
lbtbut the important thing is to make some git repos10:13
lbtthen git -> tarball -> obs10:14
Stskeepsis N and N+1 important for first stage platform sdk?10:15
Stskeepsi can see some items that i need to do before we can do N and N+1 sanely in ci-obs10:16
lbtmy biggest problem with our MINT project when I put a mgmt hat on was overview10:16
Stskeepswhich i need to do anyway, but i think it's important we do platform sdk release first10:16
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lbtoh, sorry, I'd scrolled up and missed that10:16
lbtN and N+1.... hmm10:17
Stskeepsit has to match the release for sure, yes10:17
lbtI don't mind building Tools in c.obs10:17
lbtmanual process10:17
Sage_lbt: line 11510:17
lbteven using cobs boss10:17
Stskeepslbt: does support rsync?10:18
Sage_lbt: had to remove srctree and objtree to get it to install modules10:18
lbtSage_: OK ... will look at that - thanks10:18
lbtStskeeps: yes10:18
Stskeepsalso externally?10:18
lbtI have root on everything10:19
Stskeepsok, we can script something that pulls SDK from COBS and puts it alongside a release when it has built for the release then10:19
lbtdo you mean to permit anyone to rsync?10:19
Stskeepsor just limited ips (monster..)10:20
Stskeepsi can live with that until we sort out some other stuf10:20
lbtyep - so all that is tedious operational stuff10:20
lbtOK .. so I was saying about overview10:21
lbtthe tools space is actually quite fast-paced compared to much of core upstream10:21
lbtgod help us if we use ruby where they have restless-fingers-syndrome10:22
lbtso tracking versions in Tools vs Testing was a pita - and when we had dependencies that was even worse10:22
lbteg a deepish python lib change10:23
lbtI also found that many packages were simply ports with no real changes10:23
lbtso splitting into modified and vanilla was helpful10:24
lbtbut I'd want phaeron's advice there10:24
Stskeepsmorn phaeron10:24
lbtwhen he's had coffee10:24
lbtand only if he's not grumpy :D10:24
Stskeepsphaeron: your copy-whole-project thing, it's basically "copy project A with meta, packages, everything to new project B"?10:25
phaeronnot meta10:26
Stskeepsbut package meta, i would hope10:26
phaeronyes pkg meta afair10:26
Stskeepsand binaries too?10:28
lbthave you seen adrian's release and maintenance stuff10:29
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Stskeepsyes was in the talk10:29
lbtI missed that talk10:30
phaeronit's nice but It's going to be difficult to apply if we don't understand it well10:32
phaeronand we need to buy in more into their ideas10:32
lbtyeah -
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lbtfyi  snow automation:
* Stskeeps puts a 'geek' sticker on lbt10:34
Stskeepshacking reality10:35
lbtI like that phrase :)10:35
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* Stskeeps looks at the sunny day outside10:39
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lbtyep - we have blue skies now10:40
lbtand even better, the part to fix my coffee maker arrived!10:41
lbtso ... SDK10:41
lbtI'm thinking about git10:42
lbtI think we should aim to build the initial Tools from 'random' git repos10:42
lbtwhich will not be retained forever10:42
lbtso the first release of Tools will be archived10:43
lbtbut not recreatable from git10:43
lbtthis permits us to JFDI10:43
lbtand then blat the git repo when we know what we should have done10:43
lbtit's not ideal but we're not at the stage where it really matters10:44
lbtso step 1 is to go into gerrit and make mer-tools/* for all the things we have10:44
lbtandre__: ping .. post-office run soon - address required :)10:47
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Stskeepsphaeron: did i say that i rebased my patches and now is on top of mainline, in ?11:01
phaeronStskeeps: oh.. didn't catch that11:01
phaeronwill snapshot11:02
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Stskeepsi might have forgotten to say11:02
Stskeepsi'm having a bit of a 'would prefer to be out in the sun' day :P11:02
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Stskeepslbt: and we agree mer-tools/ would be packaging, in style of mer-core/ ?11:03
lbtthat wasn't what I had in mind11:04
phaeronStskeeps: same here , it's surprisingly clear sky11:04
Stskeepslbt: okay, what did you have in mind then?11:04
lbtwhat phaeron did for OBS11:04
lbtgit archive --prefix=build-service-$VERSION/ $BRANCH_OR_TAG | bzip2 - > ../obs-server-$VERSION.tar.bz211:05
lbtI know11:05
lbtbut it's the sane way to go11:05
Stskeepsas long as you make it in such a way that i can eventually use fakeobs against it, ok11:05
lbtI'm sure we'll make fakeobs work against it yes :P11:06
* lbt ducks11:06
Stskeepslbt: you have admin access, go ahead11:07
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lbtso let me just check IMG is done+dusted11:07
lbtI think I need to add ldap and some httpd level ldapauth11:07
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lbtsetup ci-repo rsync11:08
Stskeepsthe approach used must not take over a screenful of explanations to commit a single fix, on top of our current gerrit instructions11:08
Stskeepsie, not too much complexity11:08
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lbtI will say that the first priority is just to get the code working11:10
Stskeepsi want to see a rpm repo at the end of this weekend ideally11:11
Stskeepsthat we can plug into a .ks11:11
* lbt gets his head down11:11
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phaeronI wish we could configure our OBS to do something useful with the Release: tag11:14
Stskeepsdefine useful11:14
phaeronlike add it to the rpm name11:14
* lbt pricks up ears...11:14
phaeronI put the short sha1sum there11:15
Stskeepswhy not use a macro in Version: ?11:15
phaeronStskeeps: because it complicates the build process11:15
phaeronI don't want to change the spec that much11:15
lbtbugs 91 110 11111:16
phaeronI will need to change tarball name , %setup possibly other places in the spec11:16
phaeronyes that macro is used in Source:11:17
Stskeepsand in %setup etc11:18
phaeron,, lazy11:19
phaeronStskeeps:  error: File not found: /usr/src/packages/BUILDROOT/obs-server-2.2.120-213.1.i386/usr/lib/obs/server/BSCando.pm11:20
phaeronStskeeps: from your git master11:20
Stskeepsadded a day ago11:21
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* Stskeeps ponders how to do this without breaking his sb2-obs stuff in review11:23
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Stskeepsphaeron: problem must exist in upstream11:31
Stskeeps  vs
phaeronStskeeps: not in their master branch ..11:31
phaeronthe file is there11:33
Stskeepsit is11:33
Stskeepsso is it in mine11:33
phaeronyou  have your own fork ?11:33
phaeronwhat about Merproject's fork11:34
Stskeepsi haven't pushed to that one yet11:35
Stskeepsbut yes, i have one as i'm going to upstream into main obs probably11:36
Stskeepsi just need someone to package up the stuff so we can validate this :)11:37
Stskeeps(the stuff being sb2-obs)11:37
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Stskeepswe'd probably be using merproject eventually11:38
phaeronok sorry about the confusion will package that11:40
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Stskeepsphaeron: i think in our 'merproject' branch we can keep stuff like transparent prjconfs, copy-whole-project, sb2-obs until upstreamed11:59
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phaeronthat's what I expected , we collect work there and use it12:00
Stskeepsand then have that there eventually12:00
* Stskeeps ponders how to pull from upstream to merproject12:01
* lbt votes for a rebase12:01
Stskeepsgit pull --rebase ?12:02
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lbtthink so12:02
lbtso if we have upstream 11.3 + mer patches thats 11.3mer branch12:02
phaerongit remote add upstream giturl ; git fetch upstream ; git rebase master upstream/master12:03
lbtthen if they release 2.4 we make 2.4mer branch as a rebase of patches over 2.412:03
phaeronIllegal char '-' in: Version:12:04
phaeronwhat else can I use there ?12:04
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phaeron'.' ?12:04
phaeronok ..12:04
lbtour machines don't do well with massive traffic spikes12:05
Stskeepsthe ones?12:05
Stskeepsor mer12:05
Stskeepssure it isn't I/O instead?12:06
lbtlike rsync of ci -> repo12:06
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Stskeepsphaeron: and then git push ..?12:09
phaeronif the rebase went ok yes : git push origin master12:10
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lbt is coming along12:13
Stskeepsjust recall that we do a fair bit of repo preprocessing in release making12:14
Stskeepsie, you're testing against the non-postprocessed stuff12:14
lbtso we need to do a 'release' in order to do a QA image build?12:15
Stskeepswell it is the release you're supposed to QA ;)12:15
lbtHow is that going to work then?12:17
Stskeepswell, your favourite solution12:17
StskeepsBOSS, of course12:17
lbtOK - so merging the DBC into a transient release12:18
Stskeepsi need to do some drawing but i plan on using phaeron's copy-project stuff12:18
lbtI'm thinking of the non-cacheability of that from IMG PoV12:19
lbtOK - this is too much for today12:20
lbtthe task was to get IMG up12:20
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Stskeepsif IMG can build images, i'm happy12:20
lbtyeah - DBC images come later12:20
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Stskeepslbt: so you'll take lead on the mer:tools stuff and i'll help with ways to get it onto when time comes during the weekend?12:29
phaeronStskeeps: Illegal char '~' in: Version:    2.2.120~git7fced0812:35
Stskeepsphaeron: ignore obs's source services12:35
Stskeeps / validation12:35
phaeronthat is on the server12:35
Stskeeps ~ is perfectly legal in meego/mer12:35
Stskeepsbut not in opensuse..12:35
lbtStskeeps: sounds good12:41
* lbt is however wondering if having repo on the IMG machine was all that bright ...12:42
lbtmeh ...12:42
Stskeepshow much space?12:42
lbtI gave it 50G12:43
Stskeepsphaeron, lbt:  -- what goes wrong here?12:43
lbtah you're applying upstream onto your branch12:44
Stskeepswell, i'm trying to fetch obs upstream, and push to my own repo12:44
lbtthe rebase is wrong12:45
Stskeepsso what should i do instead?12:47
lbtassuming local master is tracking upstream master then git pull master; git push origin master12:47
lbtgit pull upstream master sorry12:47
lbtI assume master should contain no local commits12:48
phaeronhe's using master for his work12:48
phaeronStskeeps: it might just be telling you that origin master is same as your local master12:49
phaeronso nothing to push12:49
phaeronupdated the script12:49
Stskeepsso we have a obs build?12:56
Stskeepsand of osc and 'build' too?12:56
phaeronnot osc and build12:57
phaerondidn't know we need those too12:57
Stskeepsbuild we need12:57
phaeronbut osc should go to :Tools12:57
Stskeepsosc we kinda need of the reason that i had to patch it for local obs builds of sb212:57
phaeronI'll do build12:57
Stskeepswhich annoyed me a bit :)12:57
Sage_systemd 41 and udev 181 and the bootspeed regression seems gone13:04
Sage_actually boot speed might be second faster or so :)13:05
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phaeronwe get the journal ?13:05
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Sage_phaeron: yes we get that13:05
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Sage_I would appreciate if someone else could test this packaging as well though as it is quite large update :)13:06
Sage_ <- install systemd and udev from there (and the deps that come with but nothing else as there is broken stuff in same repo as well)13:06
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* Sage_ submitted packages to review13:15
Stskeepswon't be in next, but the one after that probably13:15
Stskeepsif we regress in libxi, probably that goes in13:15
Sage_Stskeeps: definitely not in next :D13:16
slainelbt: Where you at the Fosem Wayland QA session ?13:17
phaeronslaine: yes13:17
lbtwasn't terribly interesting tbh13:18
slaineThought I just heard you13:18
Sage_so what does this mean ?13:18
lbtI wasn't sure what the impact of moving decoration client-side would have on regression13:18
lbtsince a change in decoration could mean quite a lot of code needs to be touched13:19
StskeepsSage_: was systemd-sysv installed?13:19
lbtagreed that *should* be abstracted through the toolkit ...13:19
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lbtslaine: I actually expected a Q&A .... so I kinda asked "what is wayland" as a joke :)13:20
lbtand to get some interaction going13:21
slainewas that at the start ?13:21
lbtpre-video start13:21
slaineyeah, hehehe13:21
lbtbut yes13:21
phaeronthat the dev node is stale and systemd is not listening to that pipe ?13:21
phaerondoes it still support it ?13:21
Sage_Stskeeps: yes13:22
slaineThe windows hints part is slightly worrying13:28
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slainei.e. the lack of control on how to place windows13:28
Stskeepsphaeron: ta13:29
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Sage_Stskeeps: is connman only reason why we have ntpd in mer core+13:39
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Stskeepsand its fairly useful too13:40
Sage_well newer connman has ntpd buildin in connman core13:40
Stskeepsthat's crazy, or good13:41
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Sage_ok, systemd that actually works is now in review :)13:50
lbtI guess connman and systemd will be all we need eventually13:50
Sage_hehe :)13:50
w00t_OSLsoon, the kernel will be embedded too13:51
* lbt opens a book on which one will absorb the kernel ...13:51
* phako votes for systemd replacing grub and then booting directly into systemd13:52
phakoand then loading whatever is needed13:52
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slainepffff, we could just dump mer-core and use emacs right now14:01
* lbt has a project14:02
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lbtDoes anyonw know Arnaud Delcasse's nick?14:11
chouchouneyes, it's me ;)14:12
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Stskeepshello franc14:34
Stskeepswelcome :) what brings you here?14:34
francinstalling nemo on n90014:35
Stskeepsah, cool - you might want to join #nemomobile too then :)14:35
francyes will do14:36
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HUELKi get a grey screen in installer is there a fix to that14:38
Stskeepsif you're using the mer images, boot into the OS and then open a terminal and run installer-shell there14:39
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Stskeepsmorn Khaled15:30
KhaledStskeeps: morning how r u?15:33
Stskeepsi'm fine15:33
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StskeepsKhaled: just one minor thing.. you're talking about focusing on one device etc -- we have a principle that we don't give any kind of preferential treatment to certain hardware, vendors, or devices as this ruins the whole benefit of an independent core -- people are free to work on what they want15:34
Stskeepsmeego took preferential devices to such an extent it ruined it for the rest of people wanting to use it on other kind of devices15:34
Khaledyeah that will be great if we lots of resources and great devices15:35
Stskeepsthere will always be devices that has more or less complete hardware adaptations, or virtual machines for development15:35
Khaledbut the truth is there really crappy products out there and resources are nt that many so it should be used wisely15:35
Stskeepsthe resources that mer project itself has is the ones working on core, hardware adaptations is projects outside it15:36
Stskeepsso if people want to work on that, we can't stop them15:36
Khaledyeah I was not talking about mer core, I was talking about n emo15:36
Khaledas a final ux we need to get one device 100% right15:37
Stskeepsnemo is a bit of a different matter as there's paid people to do n900/n950/n9 adaptations :)15:37
Stskeepsand they can select as they please15:37
KhaledI sent them an email about alot of my ideas and I have yet to have a response15:38
Khaledbut I am not sure what nemo's aim to be15:38
Stskeepsi haven't seen any emails?15:38
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Stskeepsi haven't seen any emails? where did you send to?15:40
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Khaledmarkos email of nemo15:46
Stskeepsas in, mer-general@ mailing list?15:47
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Stskeepssend to me too, carsten.munk@gmail.com15:48
Khaledits only ux stuff it has nothing to do with core15:49
Stskeepsthat's fine15:50
Stskeepsmy day job is nemo :)15:50
Stskeepswell, for a little wihle yet15:50
Khaledoh then okay sending now, u are a designer?15:51
Stskeepsi wish15:51
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Khaledok sent15:53
Stskeepsisn't there some way for people to remove the 'sent from my ipad'?15:54
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StskeepsKhaled: so, are you a designer or?15:54
Khaledsorry i removed it from the original but it came again15:54
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Khaleda begginer but yeah15:54
Stskeepswell, make some mockups of your ideas15:55
Stskeepsthat's a better way to approach the problem15:55
Khaledalso I will be attending computer engineering after 2weeks15:55
Khaled yeah I am actually starting15:55
Khaledphotoshop is just crashing and slow15:55
Stskeeps is the closest we have to guidelines15:56
Stskeeps and next pages15:56
Khaledu should just use the n9 design guidlines they are awesome15:57
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Khaledthis really feels old15:58
Khaledmaybeuse webos guidlines as they are open source15:58
Khaledit just frustrates me every time i see the unlock button, havent anyone saw the n915:59
Khaleddouble tap to wake and swipe to unlock are just no brainers15:59
Stskeepsyou have to remember this is from the time that n9 was a deep deep secret :)15:59
Stskeepsso it could in no way look like that15:59
Stskeepswe can't do a full copy of swipe ui due to potential conflicts of interests/patents16:00
Khaledyeah and it came pretty late but its just so polished16:00
Khaledno no sont copy the n9 ui16:00
Stskeepsbecause well, some of us are paid by nokia (not really a secret)16:00
Khaledit is only limited to phones16:00
Khaledu cant put it on a tanlet it wont be intuitive16:01
Stskeepsyeah, true16:01
Khaledand I actually prefer the task manager ui of webos as it throws away all this crap of widgets and icons16:01
Khaledand focuses me on the main thing I do on ever computing device,16:03
Khaledwhich is switching between apps16:03
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HUELKif i want to boot to init 3 on mer how do i do it passing 3 to kernel cmdline does not work16:04
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vgradeHUELK, don't know the kernel command line required but this has details
Khaledbtw does anyone know whats the best tools to do mockups?16:05
bigbluehatKhaled: you need your own channel ;)16:06
bigbluehatand I'd recommend Inkscape16:07
bigbluehatthere's always Mockingbird, Balsmiq and friends16:07
bigbluehatbut you can more easily expand on a "rough" Inkscape (SVG) layout16:07
Khaledr u a designer?16:07
bigbluehatwho me?16:10
bigbluehatyeah, been doing UX for a decade or so16:10
Khaledand whats your main app for mocking uis?16:10
bigbluehatmostly trolling in [Open]Mobile groups of various kinds right now to pick out some platform(s) to help support/push/design-for16:11
bigbluehatInkscape :)16:11
bigbluehatoh, and paper :)16:11
Khaledyeah paper is the first thing i go to16:12
Khaledso easy and fast16:12
bigbluehatyeah, and it doesn't crash ;)16:12
Khaledyeah photoshop is a nightmare16:13
Stskeepsbigbluehat: but you do loose data at times16:14
* Stskeeps has some papers he can't find16:14
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bigbluehatthere are some advantages to things being mutable and even singular16:17
bigbluehatI actually listened to a librarian make the case *for* house fires16:18
bigbluehatand suggested the audience implement the concept in their digital world occasionally16:18
bigbluehat…basically throwing things away willy-nilly to make yourself start over16:18
bigbluehatso that your ideas/thoughts/etc can be build on cleaner foundations16:19
bigbluehatit was...interesting16:19
bigbluehatKhaled: you need to be trolling in the b2g channel16:19
Khaledlol why?16:19
bigbluehatto help me convince them to use Mer ;)16:20
bigbluehatoh, and they do lots of mockups16:20
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bigbluehatso you might want to check those out16:20
bigbluehatthere's also #ux and #chromeless which have interesting UI/UX related conversations occasionally16:20
Khaledu have a link for those mockups?16:20
bigbluehathmmm…one second16:21
Khalednvm found it16:21
bigbluehatthese are my favorite actually:
bigbluehatsort of Win Phone-ish, but that has promise too, imo16:23
bigbluehatanyway, this is the Mer channel ;)16:23
Stskeepsit's okay to incubate here as long as your work will be based on mer16:24
Stskeepseventually we'll ask people to move out of mom's basement ;)16:24
Khaledi dont know it feels too bloated to me like there isnt any focus or clarity16:24
Stskeeps(speaking about B2G, i assume?)16:25
Khaledtheir whole idea of booting to the web is just insane16:25
Khaledsorry will stop now16:25
Stskeepsnah, i didn't ask you to stop, just had to check you didn't say that about mer ;)16:25
Khaledno come on how could16:26
Stskeepswell, people boot to QML these days16:26
Stskeepsso boot to a html interface isn't far off16:26
Khaledyeah but the web is still far from taking over16:26
Stskeepsi'm doing black magic right now,
Stskeepsi'm doing RPM builds without anything useful in my target16:27
Stskeeps(see top, bottom)16:27
Khaledwhy is everyone so afraid of the future by adopting web stuff?16:27
Stskeepsi think they want to show their worth as foundation of web uis / html5 apps16:28
Stskeepsas they're really sucky (apologies to mozilla developers) compared to webkit on mobile16:28
Stskeepsand since we're going for a war on runtimes and experiences..16:29
ali1234Khaled: because of past experience mainly16:29
ali1234web apps force you to rent software instead of buying it and force you to rely on some remote server outside your control being available (see OBS for an example of why this is bad)16:30
Khaledwell look at apple for instance16:31
Khaleddo u think they would have any problem booting their whole os whne web takes over16:31
ali1234in the end they are just a reworking of the thin client/mainframe systems16:31
Khaledinstead they used the best and most efficent thing available now16:31
ali1234except they use http which is even less suited for the task than X1116:32
Khaledand will probably adopt the web when its ready, its all about perfection16:32
Khaledthey dont tolerate buggines or half assed or incomplete stuff16:32
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Stskeepsweb isn't perfect nor will ever be16:32
slaineStskeeps: nice16:32
Khaledexactly thats why they cant adopt it16:32
Khaledand right now theyhave the most capable mobile os out there16:33
Khaledbecuase of native stuff16:33
Stskeepsslaine: understand what that means? :)16:33
KhaledI think that was meego's aim which is to be native linux16:33
ali1234you can't have a web app without a web browser16:33
ali1234all you've done is moved the problem to a different domain16:34
ali1234one which is significantly harder to deal with for the user16:34
slaineStskeeps: I can detail, but perhaps I'm missing the overall picture. It appears that your SB2 is up and running pulling in requirements for building generic spec files. icbw16:35
slaines/I can detail/I can see the detail/16:35
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Stskeepsslaine: well, i'm basically doing rpm build without tools in the target16:36
Stskeepsno autoconf, no native gcc, etc..16:36
Stskeepsso core doesn't need to be self-hosting16:36
slaineWhich is what I thought16:36
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ali1234so what will i use to build it then?16:41
Stskeeps sec, eating16:43
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Stskeepsali1234: the idea is a split between 'toolchain' and core, toolchain is self-hosting, core isn't16:55
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ali1234i see, that makes sense16:57
Stskeepsand i'm not terribly convinced of the idea yet16:58
ali1234presumably this would also make it easier for me to use i486 toolchain to build a i586 core?16:58
Stskeepsyes, for example16:58
Stskeepsthough you might have to run i586 binaries16:59
ali1234well it sounds good in theory :)16:59
Stskeepsthis is like a hybrid cross compilation approach16:59
ali1234seems like it could be a little bit pointless is core is only a subset of toolchain anyway17:00
ali1234but i guess toolchain wouldn't have X11 etc17:01
ali1234(if core even still has that)17:01
Stskeepsit has some points.. such as being able to cut and slice things you wouldn't be able to, if you had to self-host17:01
Stskeepsor, erm, build against a bionic libc target for fun17:01
Stskeepsor point against any kind of target you want mer on17:03
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Stskeepswhile not having to edit .spec files17:05
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lbtgitorious sucks17:10
lbtslow, repeatedly fails to pull, disconnects17:12
lbtjust venting :)17:13
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* Stskeeps is quite satisfied with his proof of concept17:14
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lbtyou're not allowed to explain it to anyone - they can only read wiki and comments in the code17:18
Stskeepsit's quite simple really, i just built 'acl' without any tools in the core17:18
lbtusing sb217:19
lbtso all 'dev' package code is outside core17:19
Stskeepsautoconf, automake, cross compiler, bash, coreutils, etc17:19
Stskeepsi had to have libtool in target for technical reasons17:19
Stskeepsand i can still run arm binaries :)17:20
lbtgood - that's tidy17:20
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Stskeepsrpm, rpm-build outside to17:22
Stskeepswell, in this particular case 'because it can be', it could easily be in core too17:22
Stskeepsit's just that rpm is x86 based and all binary tools within in this particular example17:23
lbtI'd expect rpm in core rpm-build out17:23
lbtbut cool that you can do it17:23
Stskeepsimagine true embedded systems made in obs..17:24
lbtI was wondering what is mandatory in core17:25
HUELKso i got rid of my zypper refresh db error by replacing the satsolver libs and bins form i48617:25
StskeepsHUELK: isn't your hardware atom?17:25
HUELKyes but my host system is not and i have to configure the kernel on the host because i connot boot otherwise17:26
HUELKon meego i can do all that on the device17:26
HUELKanyway lets see where this going to end17:27
Stskeepslbt: 'not much'17:27
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HUELKhmm why there is no ncurses-devel package17:30
Stskeepsshould be17:32
HUELKi think my zypper uri is wrong i use this
Stskeepslooks a bit old17:34
Stskeepsi might have had to put that one to backup due to it being very old17:35
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lbtoff out ... see you all in the morning o/19:10
Stskeepshave a good dance, if your foot allows it :)19:10
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phaeronlbt: o/19:35
Stskeepsevening phaeron19:35
Stskeepslbt went out for dancin'19:35
phaeronok.. I'll start testing th obs packages19:35
Stskeepsphaeron: <- look at top and at bottom19:35
Stskeepsblack magic(TM)19:36
phaeronsb2 :)19:37
phaeronI have no name means the hostname is not set afair19:37
Stskeepsi'm basically doing a full rpm build with no tools in target19:37
Stskeepsso core doesn't need to be self-hosted19:38
phaeronno tools in host you mean ? probably stuff in /target ?19:39
Stskeepsthere's no bash in /target19:40
Stskeepsno tools in target19:40
Stskeepsjust in x86 side19:40
phaeronmmm so how does it compile ? cross compile  ?19:41
phaeronso there is no need for any changes in the spec file :)19:41
Stskeepsit basically does transparent 'empty target' cross compilation, without modifying specs19:41
phaeronI know someone who will be pissed off :D19:42
Stskeepsi still need to actually make this beyond my sandbox, but i'm happy i was able to build at least one package19:42
Stskeeps(actually three)19:42
phaeronso sb2 is smart enough to set the -march and stuff ?19:43
Stskeepsthat comes from rpm's rpmrc19:43
Stskeepsand macros19:43
Stskeepsi do have to install some information in, but there's no ARM rpm binary19:43
phaeronhmm black magic indeed19:44
phaeronbut I thought the arch was hardcoded in rpm ? or was it in dpkg ?19:44
Stskeepsit's not really19:45
phaeronsome people have really misleading info :D19:45
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Stskeeps is the /target i'm building against19:48
Stskeepsignore usr/bin/perl, it's just a hack to enforce some behaviour19:48
Stskeeps(that part does not contain locales and charmaps, as glibc puts in)19:48
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phaeronit's empty ..19:50
phaeronI mean mostly empty19:51
Stskeepsglibc, glibc-devel, glibc-common, and libattr dependancy19:51
Stskeepsthe usr/lib/rpm stuff may need some more hacks19:51
Stskeepslibtool -has- to be on target for technical reasons19:51
Stskeepsbut that's a shellscript19:52
Stskeepsglibc can be cross compiled with ease19:52
Stskeepsso, maybe a few more days and i have this ready for production ;p19:53
phaeronso the rationale is to do this for bootstrapping easily ?19:54
Stskeepsthe rationale is to be able to strip all the fat needed for self-hosting in the core19:54
Stskeepsas well as to do really minimal systems19:54
Stskeeps.. or build against android bionic libc ;)19:55
Stskeepsor target mer to any kind of hw we want19:55
Stskeepswith this it becomes trivial to begin a port to any kind of hw, so19:56
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phaeronas long as it can be cross compiled to19:56
Stskeepsalso.. no more cycles for base system19:57
Stskeepsjust for toolchain19:57
* phaeron tries to get that part19:57
StskeepsCycles for armv7el (#1)19:58
Stskeepsautoconf , automake , binutils , bison , bzip2 , cloog , cvs , db4 , e2fsprogs , ed , elfutils , expat , file , flex , gawk , gcc , gdbm , gettext , glibc , gmp , groff , libcap , libtool , lua , meego-rpm-config , mpc , mpfr , nano , ncurses , nspr , nss , pcre , perl , pkgconfig , popt , ppl , readline , rpm , sqlite , texinfo , util-linux , xz , zlib19:58
Stskeepstouch one of those and your port is gone for a few hours/days19:58
Stskeepswith this, we only have that cycle in toolchain (x86)19:58
phaeronand baselib export to the other archs19:59
Stskeepsyeah, for glibc and such base things19:59
Stskeepslike, the target's glibc20:00
Stskeepsso everything is bootstrapped from x86 side20:00
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phaeronsounds good. the obs proposed method for cross compile doesn't have that benifit20:01
Stskeepsit does sortof, but it requires a lot of modifications to packages20:02
Stskeepsi want to avoid that20:02
phaeronthe cycles are still there in that method , right ?20:02
Stskeepsit depends on how they do it20:02
Stskeepsi didn't look too much into it20:02
* Stskeeps tries to push to Merproject/open-build-service and isn't having much luck20:03
Stskeepsi have and git push origin master just says everything up to date :P20:04
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phaeroncan you visualize in gitg or gitk20:05
Stskeepsmmm, it's on my remote server20:05
Stskeepsi'll take a look at it tomorrow20:06
phaerongit remote show ; git branch -a20:07
phaeronwould show what different stuff are there20:07
phaeronyou are on no branch20:07
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phaeronso you're not pushing anything to origin master20:08
Stskeepsthat's happened after i did git pull --rebase upstream master20:08
phaeronmm not sure that's correct20:09
phaerongit fetch upstream20:09
* Stskeeps tries again20:09
phaeronmake sure your patches are backed up , since switching away from your current state could loose them ?20:09
Stskeepsyeah, this is another branch than my own20:10
Stskeepstrying to update merproject20:10
phaeronthen git checkout master ; git rebase origin/master20:10
phaerongit rebase upstream/master20:10
Stskeepsphaeron: and now git push what?20:12
Stskeepsevening timoph20:12
phaeronStskeeps: after git checkout master ; git rebase upstream/master20:12
Stskeepsok, done20:12
phaerongit push origin master20:12
Stskeepscarsten@monster:~/merproject/open-build-service$ git push origin master20:13
StskeepsEverything up-to-date20:13
phaerongit branch -a20:13
phaeronare you on branch ?20:13
phaeronI wonder why you end up on no branch20:14
phaerondoes the rebase fail ?20:14
Stskeepsit says a lot of Applying:20:14
phaerontrying here20:14
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phaeronStskeeps: it says only one here20:16
Stskeeps2acarsten@monster:~/merproject/open-build-service$ git --version20:17
Stskeepsgit version
phaerongit version 1.7.920:18
Stskeepsok, so maybe i should upgrade it20:18
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crevetorStskeeps: there ?20:31
Stskeepslo crevetor20:33
Stskeepswhat's up?20:34
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crevetorStskeeps: not much, I was wondering if you had made some progress with llvmpipe (and more specifically on ARM). I just plugged my touchpad and want to see if I can get new things working :)20:39
Stskeepscrevetor: not on arm sadly20:40
Stskeepscrevetor: but supposedly plasma active works nicely without gles20:40
crevetorhum i'll try that then :)20:40
crevetorIs there a full armv7nhl image for Mer/PA ?20:41
Stskeepsnot sure, you'd have to prod vgrade20:41
crevetorvgrade: there ?20:41
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crevetorStskeeps: BTW congrats on the spark !20:42
Stskeepsah, i wasn't involved with it :)20:42
Stskeepsit's just good to see people using mer20:42
crevetorStskeeps: I saw that video but that's accelerated right ?20:42
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crevetorStskeeps: Well you are involved in mer so in some way you are involved in the spark ;)20:42
Stskeepsthats not accelerated, AFAIK20:43
ali1234seems unlikely20:43
Stskeepsqtmediahub can also run with non-gles20:43
crevetorStskeeps: hum, cool20:43
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Stskeepseven xf86-video-msm can help out , i think20:43
crevetorI'll check if I can get it to run on my touchpad20:43
wmarone_considering they only just posted the lima driver sources the other day, which aseigo is banking on for accel...20:44
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Stskeepswmarone_: well, there is framebuffer GLESv2 drivers at least20:44
Stskeepsfor glibc20:44
crevetorthe spark is QSD based ?20:44
Stskeepsfor amlogic20:44
Stskeepsso that's a start20:44
wmarone_crevetor: AMLogic made single core Cortex A920:44
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crevetorStskeeps: any idea where I could find libqca for Mer on armv7nhl ?21:20
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crevetorStskeeps: nevermind I found what I was looking for21:36
* phaeron builds old dawati ..21:36
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vgradeguys, the Spark video is framebuffer only no fancy mali stuff22:03
vgradecrevetor, arm PA builds on Mer here,
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vgradeI've had a few issues with some of these issues so the demo on youtube is from one of my old images at with kernel, xorg.conf and fstab changes22:06
vgradesome of these images22:06
crevetorvgrade: I'm using your obs repo + the kde trunk repo ATM22:09
crevetordunno if that's the right path but it has installed on top of my mer install :)22:09
vgradecrevetor, you should not now need my repo as Sage did a much better job of providing the bridge between mer core and PA deps22:10
vgradesee the kickstarts from the basyskom site22:10
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vgradeI had 100 packages he got that down to about 3022:11
crevetorvgrade: yeah but I'm using an old mer image22:11
crevetorso as of now I'm going to do it this way22:11
crevetorif it works I'll probably create my own image with everything cleaned up22:12
crevetorvgrade: startactive seems to work but nothing shows up. I'll pasty the output22:12
crevetorvgrade: if you could have a look :
vgradeyea, that is what I was seeing a couple of days ago, there was a chenge done earlier in the week to maybe fix but may only be in devel and not testing22:14
crevetorvgrade: so no quick fix I guess ?!22:15
crevetoror is there devel repos somewhere ?22:15
vgradestartactive was created to controll the bring up of the various processes required by PA, it looks like you are missing the list of tasks to start22:17
vgradecheck the basyskom links above for testing and devel kickstart files which will give you the repos22:18
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vgradewe can move to #active once we are on those repos22:18
matrixxwas playing a bit with webgl:
matrixxwithin this experiment I can also so doing things with qt/qml is so much nicer than web development22:22
phaeronat least in firefox it pegs cpu at 100%22:23
matrixxit has quite a lot of vertex data22:23
matrixxnot that bad with chrome, though I have quite new hardware too22:24
phaeronchromium has been broken on debian unstable since forever :(22:25
matrixxI'm running on windows atm :/22:26
matrixxcpu 5-6%22:27
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phaeronmaybe someone with working chromium can test22:29
phaeronit looks wicked though :)22:29
matrixxthe shader is same I was using in the merux done with qtopengl, just ported to javascript and webgl22:30
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ali1234i have chromium, dunno if it can be described as "working" though22:30
matrixxat least it's not like in exopc - 3 frames per second :D22:31
ali1234matrixx: what's it supposed to do?22:31
ali1234i just see the mer background22:31
matrixxali1234: by itself - nothing, if you click, there should be ripples22:32
ali1234also CPU is pegged with chromium22:32
ali1234synchronous javascript?22:32
ali1234yeah, i see ripples22:32
matrixxyou can check the source :)22:32
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matrixxI'm pretty new with javascript so there's definately something I can do more efficiently22:33
ali1234well, do you have a function which runs continuously?22:33
matrixxwell, the webgl drawScene sure is :)22:34
matrixxthough the stuff should happen mostly on gpu22:34
ali1234hmm... but i don't see any loops22:34
ali1234what's this function tick?22:35
ali1234how does it render frames after the first?22:35
ali1234i'm not familiar with webgl but in normal javascript you would use a timer to make it sleep in between updates22:35
ali1234maybe webgl does that internally22:35
matrixxrequestAnimFrame is the browser independent method for webgl22:36
matrixxcalled in tick22:36
matrixxwith a callback22:36
phaeronI am guessing if webgl isn't really accelerated it will do software rendering22:36
matrixxyeah, that's what I'm also suspecting, since linux :/22:37
ali1234so you call tick, that calls requestAnimFrame, that calls tick again?22:37
ali1234and so on forever22:37
matrixxthat's how I suppose it happens :)22:37
matrixxI picked the method from khronos wiki: so I guess it's the proper way to render22:38
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ali1234ah ok, requestAnimFrame does all that timer magic for you22:38
matrixxreturn window.setTimeout(callback, 1000/60);22:39
matrixxseems to be inside22:39
ali1234yeah that's just turning off the ripple though right?22:39
matrixxthere's another timer for that22:40
matrixxbut yeah, I could do so that it draws only when ripple is "on"22:40
ali1234hang on though22:40
ali1234ah, i guess it doesn't matter which order you call them22:40
ali1234calling the setTimeout first keeps the framerate constant :)22:41
ali1234so yeah must just be software rendering22:41
matrixxI'm getting 55% on firefox 1122:43
ali123476% here22:44
ali1234sometimes it spikes though22:44
matrixxbut firefox is not at its best on win anyway22:44
ali1234it's making my compiz run really slow22:44
ali1234that usually indicates it is using hardware acceleration22:44
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ali1234speaking of, i need to test a compiz update22:45
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matrixxtomorrow I'm gonna prettify the code and getting rid of the globals22:59
crevetorvgrade: :) got PA to start correctly23:00
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vgradecrevetor, cool23:31
vgradedevel or testing repos?23:31
vgradewe have a task running for increasing the number of devices running PA, would you mind adding some details to,
crevetorvgrade: I still have some work to do because the touchscreen doesn'T work yet23:35
crevetorso it's not really usable23:36
vgradegood to see, what input driver are you using evedv or mtev?23:38
crevetorvgrade: nothing yet because the underlying hardware doesn't have proper support23:39
crevetorI have to look it up in more detail23:40
vgradelbt, see video above, uses same SoC as your dragonboard23:41
vgradecrevetor, which repos are you using?23:45
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