Friday, 2012-01-13

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IanWizard-CloudHi peeps :)05:28
IanWizard-CloudHow's it building?05:28
IanWizard-Cloud(So as to be contextual, and still, entirely un-sexist.)05:28
Stskeepsmy coffee's brewing :P05:36
Stskeepsthings are going fine, the core is getting incrementally better05:38
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dcthangvery impressive06:35
Stskeepsan old demo but quite nice still06:36
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Stskeepsbenchmarking day, woo06:57
* timoph has a headdesking day07:02
ZiQiangHuanHi,I download sage's ks file from,but when I use it to create a image, but got a wrong message"Error: Please specify main repo name using --mainrepo option." And I use the ks file just like this "sudo mic-image-creator -c mer-tv-armv7l-pandaboard-0.20111120.1.CE.2011.11.20.1.ks -f raw --pkgmgr=yum --arch=armv7l"07:03
Stskeepshi ZiQiangHuan - what you need to do is to initialize a bootstrap, hang on07:07
Stskeepssudo mic-create-bootstrap -n trunk -k /var/cache/mic -r -o /var/cache/meego-bootstra07:07
Stskeepssudo mic-create-bootstrap -n trunk -k /var/cache/mic -r -o /var/cache/meego-bootstrap07:08
Stskeepslast one is correct :)07:08
Stskeepsthat will give you a small base system with the tools needed to create an image, which mic-image-creator then uses07:08
ZiQiangHuanthanks, I will have a try07:08
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Sageyey, got the udev to compile last night :)07:11
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Sagethe diff is err... quite large to old one :)07:12
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Sagetwo things in our udev package puzzle me, a) there is this MAKEDEV related stuff that has been removed from fedora at least already b) start_udev script is there which is also absent in fedora (related to MAKEDEV)07:35
Sageso pondering if we should also ditch the start_udev07:37
Sageand no we don't have that check there07:38
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Stskeepsstart_udev used to be in rc.sysinit07:39
Sageok, so we can remove that as well then07:41
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IanWizard-CloudAre we using Xorg, or wayland?07:48
StskeepsXorg right now, but practically people building on top of mer can do wayland, xorg, full screen EGL/GLESv2, framebuffer, etc07:49
* IanWizard-Cloud redirects himself to wiki.07:49
Stskeepsit's really up to the UI :)07:49
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: ahh... so it's really segregated to a T isn't it.07:50
Stskeepsyes, enabling a lot of different uses07:50
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: good design I suppose :)07:50
IanWizard-CloudI notice the donations tab is empty too :P07:51
Stskeepsmm, donations can be complex too07:52
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Stskeepsi'm running part of mer infra over my company budget, so i can't really take donations that easily07:52
Stskeepsa fund to for example sponsor tshirts and materials might be good though07:53
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IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: isn't it mostly community driven?07:54
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: or rather...07:54
IanWizard-Cloudshouldn't it be?07:54
IanWizard-Cloudto avoid some of the MeeGo pitfalls.07:55
Stskeepsit's better to think of Mer as a co-operative, where multiple individuals/companies operate and own it07:55
Stskeepsie, some pitch in with hardware, others pitch in with code contributions, etc07:56
Stskeepsfor the mutual benefit of the cooperative07:56
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: isn't that the same thinking that go MeeGo killed?07:56
Stskeepsmmm, what makes you say that?07:57
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: just my impression07:57
Stskeeps(btw, community driven does similar things, some pitch in with servers, some pitch in with code, etc)07:58
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: I've never had time to get into all of this bfore now.. so I'm still playing catchup07:58
Stskeepsso it is community driven, but it doesn't mean companies can't participate07:58
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: what company are you from?07:59
Stskeepsmy own :)07:59
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: ahh, taht one :P07:59
Stskeepswhat skewed meego was that there was a tendancy that policy should follow the investment's interests, instead of technical merit and written down process08:00
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Stskeepswhereas in mer, we very much rely on the aspect of being technically driven, ie, contribution and participation gives you merit and influence, in an open process08:02
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SageStskeeps: any ideas what we should do with that?08:10
Stskeepsmmm, let me think about it a bit08:10
Stskeepsi wouldn't mind if we somehow can add a %define provide_glx or something08:10
IanWizard-CloudSo... (sorry to take more of your time)... what has to be added on top to get a decent system?08:11
IanWizard-Clouddisplay system (xorg), UI08:12
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Stskeepsdepends on what you want to do really :)08:12
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IanWizard-Cloudappropriate apps08:12
Stskeepswant to make a interactive busstop? QMLviewer and a qml app for it, slap it on top of Mer Core, together with a hardware adaptation, boot it up08:13
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: oh, kernel as well.08:13
Stskeepsyes, hardware adaptations are outside but pretty off the shelf08:13
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: I guess that Im' still slightly unsure of what Mer covers.08:13
StskeepsMer is a core, minus UI and hardware adaptations08:14
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Bostikbasically mer is all the "invisible, but tentacular" parts that one would face trying to put a full, non-crippled linux system on any new device08:16
Bostikiow. the stuff you need anyways to build your fancy software on08:17
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niqtcan mer support ol hardware type ?  I should  use it for media box08:46
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slaineniqt, the 686 builds would work find on that09:00
slaineHowever, the open chrome/mesa stack for that is pretty out of date09:00
Stskeepsyou'd probably have to use llvmpipe09:01
slaineand there's no decent KMS support as of yet09:01
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lbtStskeeps: did you create a baseline Mer ks?09:13
Stskeepsno, not yet09:13
lbtOK... I'm about to do that then09:13
lbtI'm trying to work up a getting started 'path'09:14
lbtit is hard to write a narrative that doesn't get too bogged down09:16
lbtso I'm thinking of writing a concept/* area in the wiki09:16
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lbteach key concept linking to some other pages and cross-referenced09:16
Stskeepsmm, Handboo/ ?09:17
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lbtit's almost a maintained link area09:18
lbtwhere's the Mer git repo url?09:18
lbtwhere is the url to the Mer Tools OBS area?09:19
lbtwhich mic do we use?09:19
lbtdo we use kickstarter?09:19
Stskeepsyes, we will eventually09:19
Stskeepsgive me ~15 mins09:19
lbtfine - where's that written09:19
lbtsure ... but I was doing this anyhow09:20
lbtjust an FYI really :)09:20
lbtand s/Concept/Handbook/ is something we can do much later ...09:20
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RaYmAnSo no surprise there..Same as good.10:11
RaYmAnerr, google10:11
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harbaumWhere does google demand a secured boot loader?10:14
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harbaumIn the android world users have leanred that the ability to install custom firmware is a plus. So something like that may actually be noticed by average users10:18
harbaumon the other hand: distributing cursom wp updates is already prohibited by copyright. unlike android10:19
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ZiQiangHuanhi, with Ubuntu 10.10 , how could I update the version of 'qemu-arm' or 'qemu-arm-static' to 0.13.0 or above? I can't find it on
mordZiQiangHuan: tried ?10:53
mordsorry, seems to be now10:53
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ZiQiangHuanthank you, I will have a try.10:55
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RaYmAnharbaum: they do with ICS in order to be allowed to use google apps (market, gmail etc)11:22
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ZiQiangHuanhi,mord, it seems I can't get it work. I use "sudo add-apt-repository  ppa:ubuntu-virt/virt-daily-upstream; sudo apt-get update", then I "sudo apt-get install qemu-arm-static", it seems qemu-arm-static version is still 0.12.511:28
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mordhmm. dunno why i had it in my head they had a newer build11:35
mordjustathought, sorry couldn't be of assistance11:36
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ZiQiangHuanBut with Ubuntu 10.10, how can I get the new version qemu-arm-static from somewhere else ?11:38
StskeepzZiQiangHuan: it's just a static binary.. hang on a couple of seconds and i'll get you it11:38
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ZiQiangHuanthank you very much, Stskeepz.11:43
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ZiQiangHuanWhen I use MIC2 to create image, I got error "qemu: fatal: cp15 insn ee1d0f70"11:46
Stskeepsdid you install this in /usr/bin/qemu-arm-static ?11:46
ZiQiangHuanI am downloading it, my network is not good11:47
Stskeepsi guess it could be an idea to put a mer mirror in china11:49
ZiQiangHuanTotally agree with you11:50
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Stskeepssubmitted bug 119 in mer bugzilla, then we remember :)11:51
lbtno phaeron ...11:54
dm8tbrStskeeps: neither wiki nor www know about that bugzilla, can you add a bug to bugzilla, that bugzilla needs to be more visible? :)11:54
lbtis alterego about much11:54
* dm8tbr wanted to add it to MerBot, but couldn't locate the URL11:54
lbtI want to get the wiki to our infra11:54
Stskeepslbt: prod him in /msg, he usually gets back then11:55
lbtI should however ensure I'm ready :)11:55
Stskeepsdm8tbr: ;)11:55
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lbtand I refuse to do any (optional) infra work until I get my Joggler/vendor sorted11:56
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* lbt waves to lool11:56
loolhey there11:56
lbtare you going to FOSDEM ?11:57
loolI can't   :-(11:57
lbtaw ...11:57
StskeepsSage: do we have 'mic' built for mer anywhere?11:57
loolI didn't miss it in years, but because I'm traveling to SFO on Sunday, it doesn't make sense to go there   :-/11:57
loolI'm quite sad to miss FOSDEM11:57
SageStskeeps: not atm. I build mine from git locally to my host11:58
Sagef15 host11:58
lbtStskeeps: I logged a bug on that last night11:58
Stskeepslbt, Sage: i'm pondering it could be good to have some kind of platform SDK VM / chroot that comes with all the needed tools, initially, to avoid having to build for every other distro11:59
lbta bit like mic bootstrap11:59
lbtthis is partly why I was asking about the ks12:00
Stskeepsi do have a .ks of some degree.. sec12:00
lbtand why I just said "no phaeron"12:00
lbtI'd like to see where we are with all our tools12:00
lbtand I'm pulling in wiki pages from MeeGo12:00
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Stskeeps is one12:02
lbtOK - ta12:03
Stskeepsi should really get on the kickstarter bandwagon..12:03
lbtyou have, it says so in the comments12:03
lbtthey are accurate aren't they? :P12:03
Stskeepsmeh, lies and videotape12:03
StskeepsSage: where did we have our current kickstarter files for nemo?12:04
Sagekickstarter is there12:06
Sageconfigs there12:06
lbtI'm going to start adding these links to the wiki12:07
Stskeepsi think i've found the point of architecture diagrams12:08
Stskeepsto generate names for things easier12:08
lbtI thought they were there so you could have a corporate turf-war?12:09
Stskeepsah, now that's a good idea for a conference game12:09
Stskeepsarchitecture diagram twister12:09
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Bostiknow that would be cool12:17
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Stskeeps@Mer Core is a horrible name, isn't it12:29
Stskeeps@Mer Base would be more correct12:29
Stskeepsor Mer Base System12:29
Aard@Mer Kat12:29
iekkuall your bases belongs to us12:29
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SageStskeeps: Well, Core sounds more than base, if you say Base then I would say there is too much packages in there.12:42
Stskeepsit's mostly from that we call the entire (all) packages, the core12:43
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smokuStskeeps: I like the "Mer Core" name12:43
smokumore than base12:44
SageMer Platform ?12:44
Stskeepsfor a package group, just fwiw12:44
SageStskeeps: well, that could be splitted much more.12:45
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SageMainly meaning that we should not force users to have all packages in their system, but only as much they need.12:47
smokulike Qt? :)12:47
Sagewell, my XBMC image doesn't need Qt for example12:48
Sagesome doesn't need ofono or bluez maybe12:48
smokuin this context 'core' fits even more - as a group of packages that are absolutely crucial to have.  and you build around them12:50
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StskeepsSage: btw, why systemd-sysv and not systemd?12:51
Stskeepsin core package group12:51
Sagewell, systemd doesn't requires systemd-sysv automatically but systemd-sysv requires systemd :)12:52
Sagewe should clean that up yes12:53
Sageor hmm... no fedora has similar packaging12:53
smokui.e. I don't need systemd-sysv at all12:54
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StskeepsSage: - what would you ditch there?12:55
* Sage checks12:56
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SageStskeeps: do we want to list everything that should be there or only the main things which take the deps with them?12:59
Stskeepsi guess it's good to list what contitutes "needed binaries to boot up"13:00
Stskeeps / "central libraries" (think glibc)13:00
SageI think that is quite clean group13:02
Sagedeltarpm is not really needed I think13:03
Stskeepsif we have zypper, we need deltarpm13:03
Stskeepsif you look on fedora, it can save a lot of bw :P13:03
Sageshould zypper then maybe require deltarpm?13:03
Stskeepsnah, it's an kinda adddon, i guess13:04
Stskeepsgood question how zypper does it13:04
SageWhat has always been confusing to me are: basesystem, setup, filesystem, lsb-release13:05
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Sageand that13:06
Sagewhy there needs to be so many things for those13:06
Sagee.g., basesystem doesn't contain any files :)13:06
Stskeepsdoes it contain directories?13:07
Sage[root@localhost ~]# rpm -ql basesystem13:07
Sage(contains no files)13:07
StskeepsRequires(pre): setup filesystem13:07
Sageso pretty much useless package13:07
lbtjstaniek_QFridge: hi13:08
Sageprobably a legacy leftof13:08
Stskeepslo jstaniek_QFridge - should have a exopc build13:08
lbtSage: so maybe a task to document the purpose of each of those packages and maybe consolidate some13:09
Stskeepsi think filesystem is meant as 'to indicate noone else owns these directories, so don't get rid of them"13:09
Stskeepssetup is actual configuration13:09
Stskeepsbut yes, basesystem seems a bit meta-package-ish13:10
SageStskeeps: well, IMO filesystem could be merged to setup or vice versa13:10
jstaniek_QFridgeStskeeps: cool.. always current :)13:10
StskeepsSage: right13:10
StskeepsSage: architectual backlog?13:11
Stskeepslbt: looks like i'm in need of a friday beer13:12
lbtquestion is...13:12
lbtdo you have it before the platform SDK meeting or after?13:13
SageStskeeps: still the same net/8021q/8021q.o: Cannot allocate memory :/13:13
Stskeepslbt: ah, then i can't :/13:13
lbtbefore 300ml... after ... 3L13:13
Stskeepsi try to avoid being drunk at irc meetings ;)13:13
StskeepsSage: x86 kernel or panda or ..?13:13
Stskeepsurl please13:14
SageStskeeps: do we use loop devices a lot? :)13:17
StskeepsSage: mic213:17
Sagewell, but in Mer13:18
Stskeepsnot terribly, what do you have in mind?13:18
Sagein past udev created those nodes with a bit this and that. Just wondering if we need to keep that behaviour or if we can remove it from udev13:19
Sageit is the old start_udev thing that does it for us13:21
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SageStskeeps: with new udev those udev cmd links do not seem to work anymore
Stskeepskill them then13:37
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slaineStskeeps: VERY interesting Phoronix benchmark results between Arch Linux hardfp and Ubutun linux softfp, on the same kernel versions on TrimSlice16:17
w00tapples, meet oranges16:20
slainew00t, not quiet16:20
w00tpretty much16:20
w00tthere's way too much variance in that16:20
slaineI'd disagree16:20
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w00tdifferent toolchains, different software versions all over the place, etc16:20
sledgesbut the outcome: don't use ArchLinux there :{16:21
sledgesor fix it16:21
slaineyeah, exactly, and the newer, hardfp ones come out worse off16:21
slaineI've seen similar complaints about hardfp benchmarks before16:21
w00tdo them properly, and _then_ complain16:22
slainedoesn't mean it's not interesting16:22
slainemer would be an ideal platform for that16:23
Stskeepsalso, it may not be entirely fair16:24
Stskeepsarch linux doesn't use linaro gcc,  think?16:24
w00tan example of variance, for instance, is that ubuntu is most likely built with linaro patched gcc, i doubt arch carry those patches16:24
Stskeepsstop copying me, bitch16:24
w00twe really are twin souls16:24
slainewell, you're making assumptions now16:24
Stskeepsi am, admittedl16:24
slainemy point being, the newer, in theory better toolchain, with hardfp, came off worse16:24
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sledgesnewer!=better... as long as it works - don't touch it :)16:30
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lbtSDK meeting in a moment17:00
Stskeepsno, in an hour17:02
Stskeeps18:00 UTC17:02
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Stskeepsgot time for it still, or got tango?17:03
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lbtI'll check17:03
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Stskeepsevening zumbi17:42
zumbiStskeeps: hi17:42
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* zumbi needs to setup OBS server17:44
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Stskeepszumbi: we're having a meeting about platform SDK (ie, not app sdk, but image builds/building software/etc) in 17 minutes, might be interesting for you too17:45
Stskeepsjust a brainstorm17:45
zumbiStskeeps: sure17:45
zumbiat mer-meeting?17:45
zumbiStskeeps: how was building for arm hard float with OBS-SB2?17:47
Stskeepszumbi: i haven't actually tried hardfloat yet, but i'm not expecting any kind of issues17:47
Stskeepsit worked fine for softfp and for MIPS, so :)17:47
zumbiare there docs on the setup?17:47
Stskeeps is a little out of date17:48
zumbiI was trying GNU hello on emulated chroot, but I got gcc ICE the other day17:48
Stskeepsas we can build all mer packages now17:48
zumbiwould it be much painful to build other distro as *buntu and generate a derivative?17:48
Stskeepsi haven't tested debian package building with sb2-obs, at least17:49
Stskeepsit should theoretically work17:49
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zumbiI want to try that17:51
Stskeepsi think x-fade wanted to do that too because of harmattan builds17:51
zumbiyep, I got an N900 and N9 with harmattan17:53
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tpnhey all17:56
StskeepsREMINDER: platform SDK brainstorm meeting in 7 minutes in #mer-meeting17:56
tpnyou reckon I can get mer running on a CuBox?
Stskeepstpn: yes, but there was some uncertainty about the kernel sources17:56
Stskeepscheck the forums17:56
tpnwill do, seems a neat little box17:57
Stskeeps , it seems like kernel is published17:57
Stskeepsit does, yeah17:57
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timophI'm going to a bit late (on the phone)18:00
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ali1234the battery in my N900 now lasts about 4 hours on standby with the screen turned off18:13
Stskeepsthat's not good18:13
ali1234it's about the same amount of time it takes to change my C718:14
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RzRj #mer-meeting18:39
StskeepsRzR: to catch up18:39
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slainegood meeting19:01
lbtback tomorrow.... 'night all19:02
Stskeepscya, have a good tango19:02
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* slaine waves to ali1234 19:04
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zumbiStskeeps: does not need to double package, just boorow the existing one and modify19:09
Stskeepszumbi: yeah, okay19:09
Stskeepsdeep down it's just source code anyway19:09
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zumbiStskeeps: yep, but it would be based on long term supported distro19:10
zumbiI think mer core is great too, but I just would like to try this approach19:11
zumbieven mer might be more flexible for bootstrapping and such things19:11
Stskeepsi'll be honest and say i don't see much point, as we don't give much more than systemd+emdebian+qt on top within the core, but this is open source, so i can't and won't stop you :)19:11
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Stskeepsbut yeah, there are some cases where bootstrapping off debian could somehow be useful19:12
Stskeepsand then build rpms on top of that, for instance19:12
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* Stskeeps has kitchen tablet planned for the weekend19:14
slaineexopc ?19:14
slaineux ?19:14
Stskeepsnemo based19:14
Stskeepsit runs really fast on there19:14
slaineI bet19:14
Stskeepsof course it has a fan and gets really warm too, but it's a cold kitchen..19:15
slaineis there a wiki entry on how to do an adaptation ?19:15
Stskeepsi think we've started slowly writing guides19:15
Stskeepsdon't we have trimslice already?19:16
slaineWe've been in talks with the manufacturer about removing the fan and putting a heatsink pad on the back, dissipate via a stand19:16
slaineI think vgrade did something himself on c.obs19:16
slainebut I've yet to actually login to cobs and try anything, was spending what time I had trying to setup a local obs19:17
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Stskeepsi'm hoping we can move towards a nice adaptation template, so people can take things off the shelf literally19:17
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zumbihow do you deal with 3d driver nightmare?19:18
slainethat's done with hw adaptation19:18
Stskeepszumbi: it varies from adaptation to adaptation how difficult it is19:18
Stskeepswe just assume they provide and from core POV19:18
Stskeepser, so.219:18
Stskeepswe can do EULA'ed repositories as well19:19
slaineso for a trimslice adaptation for example, you take the hardfp drivers provided by nvidia, package them up and have that int our hw adaption project on the OBS19:19
slaineyour kickstart file then pulls from mer core repo, your hw adaptation repo (for kernel, GLES etc.)19:20
zumbiit might be interesting to generate some kind of licensing report19:20
slaineadditionally then you can have another repo that has the UX you want, memo mobile or your own concotion19:20
Stskeepswe have licenses encoded in RPMs and trying to keep them as accurate as posisble19:21
slainegah, typo's19:21
Stskeepsso it's a matter of asking RPM19:21
zuhStskeeps: What would be a good "generic" rootfs for a Cortex-A9 device to try out?19:21
slainein short, that could be scripted19:21
slainelatest mer armv7hl ??19:21
Stskeepszuh: can try with ---- we will shortly be doing generic core file system images again19:22
slainewot he said ^19:22
* zuh downloads19:23
Stskeepsit's a mistake we're not doing them atm :)19:23
Stskeepsthat's on my list for tomorrow to do19:23
vgradezuh, also
slainegrade, get the to the pubbery19:24
vgradetaxi at 8pm :)19:24
slaineI'm gonna split now19:25
slaineCatch you over the weekend at some point guys19:25
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vgradezuh, is a basic rootfs , boots to qmlviewer on framebuffer19:26
zuhI would prefer X.Org based thing, I'm assuming nemo is such19:28
Stskeepsframebuffer meaning xorg-x11-drv-fbdev19:29
Stskeepsold version, though19:30
Stskeepsi'll get you a better one tomorrow (i hope)19:30
Stskeepsbut for now that fs is good19:30
Stskeepsand lighter than nemo/more likely to work out of box19:30
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vgradeStskeeps, an oldie indeed, you forget how long it was since Mer rose again19:34
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vgradeStskeeps, a goodie though I used it to debug an issue on a tegra tablet with someone only a couple of days ago19:36
vgradeyou mentioned exo , is the home crash sorted now?19:40
Stskeepsthank $DEITY19:40
Stskeepsit was a bug in xorg configuration19:40
Stskeepsif you ever see that on a device, switch from evdev to mtev19:40
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vgradetime for a few beers, night19:42
* Stskeeps boots up widelands19:45
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zuhHmm, what's the root password in these images...19:53
timophlegacy password :)19:54
timophbtw, added some content to the platform sdk wiki page19:54
Stskeepslooks good19:54
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zuh[   96.938049] login[2926]: pam_securetty(login:auth): access denied: tty 'ttyAMA2' is not secure !19:57
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Stskeepsmeego/meego also works19:58
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zuhOk, one more thing, how do I stop the uxlaunch from respawning? It's messing the console with chatter...20:12
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Stskeepssystemctl disable uxlaunch.disable20:13
Stskeepssystemctl disable uxlaunch.service20:13
Stskeepsor stop, i forget20:13
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zuhstop seems to have worked, thanks :)20:15
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kulvezuh: "one more thing". That's quite trusting :)20:46
zuhWell, it's "working" as in I get a working X.Org up. MCompositor doesn't seem to bother rendering anything visible though20:48
Stskeepsyeah, not surprised20:49
Stskeepsno glesv2/egl?20:49
zuhI should have those, not sure if working though.20:51
zuhThere doesn't seem to be installed anything to verify that with...20:51
Stskeepsusually i just do that with qmlviewer -opengl20:52
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zuhqmlviewer doesn't seem to be present...20:53
Stskeepsah :P20:53
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mgroverI understand they use Qt creator, I hope, but how do they specifically compile it for Nemo Mobile than Harmattan?23:12
mgroverand before that "Hello I was wondering how people are compiling programs for Nemo Mobile?"#23:12
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