Saturday, 2011-12-31

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ScriptRipperHi all,01:22
ScriptRipperwe have created a Merproject git on github here: https://github.com/Merproject01:22
ScriptRipperthis git repo is mainly for the Infrastructure code and patches like OBS01:23
ScriptRippermain git repos are still like said in wiki01:23
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ScriptRipperping lbt X-Fade Stskeeps01:24
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sledgesthey beez zleeping..02:50
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berndhsit's the middle of the night where they are, how dare they sleep !02:51
sledgezzZprecisely!02:52
sledgezzZwe aren't sleeping!02:52
* sledgezzZ ZZzzz....02:52
berndhsi'm tired, good night02:53
sledgezzZnitezz02:53
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* Stskeeps yawns07:03
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* dm8tbr hates closed-source ipr-over-protecting licensing in the context of open-source projects :(09:13
dm8tbrThere will not be a hw-accelerated adaptation for STE silicon anytime soon.09:14
Stskeepsso, let me understand the situation correctly.. it's OK when it's through a clickthrough?09:14
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dm8tbrStskeeps: there is source, which was stated was intended to be BSD licensed, but it has proprietary headers and is supposed to be only available after click-wrap (which it isn't, it's in public git)09:17
dm8tbrthe click-wrap puts many requirements forward, which would be IMHO impossible to comply with if we put this into OBS (even as a binary only)09:18
dm8tbrlike 'can only be used with STE snowball' etc09:19
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dm8tbrhttp://igloocommunity.org/download/igloolicense.html 2.109:27
dm8tbrI'm under the impression that you can't build it and then provide the binary for someone else to build an image based on it09:29
dm8tbrand all sorts of other pitfalls09:29
Stskeepstwo ways to solve this.. one is that i'm planning platform sdk of sorts, with SB209:29
Stskeepsso you can build locally if need be with ease09:29
dm8tbrsure, but x-org needs to build against it...09:29
Stskeepssure, and? :P09:30
dm8tbrso you end up with ditching OBS and building a whole dependency chain in the worst case09:30
Stskeepsother one is to provide those scripts and somehow pursuade igloocommunity to distribute the resulting rpms09:30
Stskeepsbut yeah, hw adaptation is a murky murky area09:31
dm8tbrthe headers have the same licensing proprietary headers, so that would need to change too09:31
Stskeepsdid you read about the AOSP challenges?09:31
dm8tbrdon't think so09:32
Stskeepshttps://plus.google.com/112218872649456413744/posts/75aLL1dWY2u09:32
Stskeepsseems like even android has similar issues09:32
dm8tbrcomes to no surprise09:36
dm8tbrwe'd be in the same fight with TI right now if not for you and koen fighting those things through and setting precedents09:41
Stskeepswhile it sucks, i guess it's good to provide methods to deal with non-ideal situations09:43
Stskeepsthere will be device companies which can get source but not provide it in redistributable form, and we should make it possible for them to make devices anyway09:44
dm8tbrwell if you in-house everything you don't have to care09:44
dm8tbryou just put the sources into your private OBS and out pops a package09:44
Stskeeps:nod:09:44
dm8tbrit's those pesky open-source projects that want to work in the open09:45
Stskeepshmm, this mips port is going quite nicely09:46
Stskeepssucceeded: 122, failed: 5, still building09:46
Stskeepsupgraded to gcc 4.6.309:47
dm8tbr:)09:50
Stskeeps(yes, some people do gardens in their free time, i experiment with porting mer..)09:50
Stskeeps:P09:50
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_av500_dm8tbr: or 3) ditch STE :)10:01
dm8tbr_av500_: that's the result they are getting at the moment, no support of STE in Mer10:02
dm8tbrwhich must suck at least for one STE guy, as he was extremely eager to see this happen10:02
dm8tbrI can see why, at the moment snoball only has paid work visible10:03
kimjudm8tbr, get him to work from the inside with relicensing those bits?10:04
Stskeepsdm8tbr: so, we have the spec files and sources and it works but we can't redistribute?10:06
dm8tbrkimju: that's what I've been trying for 2-3 months now at least10:07
dm8tbrkimju: the last mail was some higher-up overrride that could be translated as 'go take a hike we don't care unless you have a business case for us'10:07
dm8tbrStskeeps: correct10:08
dm8tbrStskeeps: I'm going to outline the situation to them once again, as they have no idea about OBS and what a public build system is...10:08
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Stskeepsthere's something about that linaro has same bizarre problems10:12
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Stskeepsnote for the logs: Mer MIPS is currently O3210:36
Stskeeps:P10:36
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alien_Stskeeps: nice11:08
Stskeepsi thought it was N32 for some reason, that's what you get for basing off other people's rpms..11:10
alien_Stskeeps: do you use any public OBS for this MIPS port?11:14
Stskeepsalien_: semi-public, http://webui-ci.tspre.org and make an account, then navigate to http://webui-ci.tspre.org/project/show?project=home%3AAdmin%3Amips211:15
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Stskeepsalien_: i use the new SB2-OBS integration to speed up my porting, so that's why it's on there11:15
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alien_I didn't know that SB2 could integrate with OBS11:21
Stskeepsnew technology, been working on it for some months now11:22
Stskeepsto replace our old cross compile approach11:22
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Stskeepshttp://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/SB211:22
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Stskeeps282 succeeded out of ~320 is pretty good in my book already11:30
alien_how hard would it be to get it converted into N32/N64?11:32
alien_and would that get more packages to build?11:33
Stskeepsi'm a little worried about that, it might need a full re-bootstrap11:33
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Stskeepswell, the reasons why packages don't compile right now: 1) missing a fix i have working in sb2-obs for armv7l, 2) picking up some patches from debian11:34
Stskeeps3) we're on glibc 2.11 there and 2.13 in rest of mer :)11:36
Stskeepsso i think we can get a functioning mips o32 port that makes an upcoming n32 port easier11:36
alien_did Meego ever work on MIPS?11:37
Stskeepsthe story is that mips technologies got rt-rk.com to make a meego port, and i got a copy of their meego 1.1 mips port.. they tried to get it officially into meego but was ignored11:40
Stskeepsmeego 1.1 -> 1.3 was a nightmare of a rebase :)11:40
Stskeepsthe mer mips port is based off rt-rk's work11:40
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Stskeepsalien_: got any hw you might want to put it on?12:24
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alien_Stskeeps: no12:25
alien_although I guess it can easily be installed instead of OpenWRT on wifi routers12:25
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alien_and there are plenty of such MIPS  routers12:26
Stskeeps:nod: i have one, though mer has a tendancy to be more graphical12:26
Stskeepsmorn slx12:27
Stskeepser, sledges12:27
sledgesmorning Stskeeps !12:27
sledgeshow'ß things?12:28
Stskeepssledges: they're okay, happy to be back hacking12:28
Stskeepsdid you get qmlviewer with opengl going?12:28
alien_Stskeeps: indeed, but at least the core could run on real hardware12:28
Stskeeps:nod:12:28
sledgesStskeeps: ;) im still walking like a crab (in reverse :))12:29
Stskeepsi knew i should have grabbed one of those SGI O2's when i had a chance at uni..12:29
sledgesbut hey, as we speak, i finally got down to the KDE PA2 desktop!12:29
Stskeepscool12:29
sledgesgot the welcome screen saying file ...welcome.qml ...unavailable..., and still no mouse and no idea how to navigate with keyboard12:30
* sledges is just doing proof of concept at the moment12:31
alien_http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/05/99-chinese-tablet-is-mips-based-runs-android-4-0/12:31
Stskeepsyeah, saw12:31
Stskeepsno idea if the GLESv2 libraries exist for glibc-based linux12:31
sledgeswasn't it exactly because of cheap chinese copiers that Honeycomb was never released12:31
Stskeepsi'm planning first to boot it in qemu (malta emulation), and then try out on hw somewhre12:32
Stskeepslike the longsoon12:32
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StskeepsWrote: /home/abuild/rpmbuild/RPMS/mipsel/libqtgui4-4.8.0~rc1-1.1.mipsel.rpm12:40
Stskeeps\o/12:40
sledgessounds juicy!12:42
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Stskeepsmorn amjad_14:12
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* Stskeeps adds two last patches to prerelease and watches it rebuild14:20
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vgrade1Stskeeps, hi15:18
Stskeepsvgrade1: have a happy new year :) i've done an experiment with llvmpipe, disabling the JIT for ARM15:19
Stskeepsmaybe that'll get llvmpipe working15:19
vgrade1seasons greetings to you15:19
vgrade1ping me if you have anything to test. I'm back to my desk now15:21
vgrade1have the amlogic tablet booting my built kernel to frambuffer with penguin logo so far.15:22
vgrade1looking for missing kernel messages now15:23
fw190Stskeeps: happy new year. new nemo image after some testing feels ok ;)15:25
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Stskeepsvgrade: amlogic tablet?15:36
Stskeepsthe compulab one?15:38
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zmc_Quick question I haven't found a straight answer to: Does mer/plasma-active run on X-Windows or some other graphical framework?15:40
alien_zmc_: it uses X15:54
Stskeepsmer plus PA uses X but from what i can gather, it should be transplantable to wayland eventually15:58
Stskeepsmer itself is a bit more flexible :)15:59
zmc_Oka, just wondering.  I dislike wayland and am thinking about trying to get an android alternative up on my phone.  The main reason I want to get rid of android is to be able to run X things.  If the replacement doesn't run X it kinda defeats the purpose.16:03
Stskeeps:nod:16:04
Stskeepswhat device, out of curiousity?16:04
zmc_Stskeeps : I'm not sure yet.  I have an old HTC Dream (T-Mobile G1), and a newer HTC Vision (T-Mobile G2/Desire Z).  I've been running debian in a chroot with vnc-hackery to accomplish desktop things on the phone, and it works well.  The overhead of Android, and the sideways hackery has been annoying me.  With some kernel tweaks I can probably get it running native X, and from there the sky's the limit.  Only sticky points will be phone functionality.16:10
Stskeepsyeah, baseband is always annoying16:10
zmc_also whatever kind of binary-blob hardware drivers16:10
zmc_Over in #linwizard a few years ago we got an old windows mobile phone, running linux and gpe/opie/enlightenment, with phone support.  Biggest problem is that wifi / gsm data never worked, so having a mobile device constantly tetherd via usb was kinda useless.16:11
Stskeeps:nod:16:11
Stskeepsaftermarket hacking is always difficult16:12
Stskeepsfor the n950/n9 we already had phone and such working before device release16:12
zmc_When I got the phone I did a quick googlesearch for the CPU, and TI said it supported linux, what they didn't mention was that all the specs were under NDA, and there were no linux implementions out in the wild.  So we had to reverse engineer all the gpio lines, and address space and, and and... By the time google coughed up the sources for the linux devices they had running on that arch, we had already reimplemented everything through reverse-engineering and gotten it16:13
zmc_mainline-vanilla linux16:14
Stskeepsyeah..16:14
zmc_I'm kinda suprized that with debian/arch-linux support for various arm arch's so well developed that noone has put out anything that runs natively on phones16:15
alien_zmc_: that's why it's better to carefully choose which hardware you buy16:16
Stskeepszmc_: well, there's SHR and co16:16
alien_Nokia has a tradition of open hardware16:16
zmc_alien_ I was super excited for nokia's new phones, and I really liked the direction they were going in.  Then they flushed everything and got in bed with microsoft.16:17
Stskeepsn900 makes probably the most hackable phone i've seen to date16:17
alien_zmc_: but the hardware is still there16:17
zmc_n900 looks really nice, even on stock firmware.  But the platform is aging, and I haven't even heard rumors of a successor16:18
Stskeepswell, n916:18
Stskeepsi guess best we can hope is that someone someday makes a mer based phone :)16:19
zmc_I havent looked at the n9 seriously because it has no physical kbd.  Looks slower than my Vision.  Do you get full specs for it?16:19
alien_95% is open16:20
zmc_Also n9 isn't avail here in PR (United states territory)16:20
Stskeeps1ghz, 1gb ram, 16gb emmc, omap3630, single-core, 854x480 (i think)16:20
alien_there was a discussion yesterday about hardware that's not yet open on it,  such as GPS and NFC16:22
zmc_It's also a bit worrysome to me that meego/tizen looks like a dying platform.16:22
zmc_What's NFC?16:22
Stskeepsignore meego part of the n9.. it's maemo6/harmattan16:22
Stskeepswe run mer on it fine, which is meego-derived16:22
alien_it basically allows you to transfer a small amount of data when you touch NFC devices16:23
zmc_ahh got it.16:23
alien_useful for Bluetooth pairing16:23
Stskeepsor tags16:23
zmc_so is maemeo still being actively developed by nokia behind the scenes?16:23
Stskeepsharmattan's OS is maemo6 but i think that we all can agree that the unit is slowly shutting down16:23
zmc_Last I knew they abandonded all their linux devel to move to windows-phone16:23
Stskeepswith the switch16:23
Stskeepser, harmattan=n9's16:24
Stskeepszmc_: do you know of Nemo Mobile?16:24
alien_zmc_: there are rumors, that's all that I can say16:24
zmc_I saw something this morning while looking at plasma-active things. (nemo)16:25
Stskeepshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShRnOazNu9Q&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL16:25
zmc_alien_: I haven't heard the rumors, but windows phone looks like a sinking ship.  With all the linux experience nokia has gained, it seems silly to just abandon everything.16:26
Stskeepson the plus side, a lot of the people nokia had, are now at the place they should have been in the first place16:27
Stskeepsat the SoC vendors16:27
zmc_I was really thinking of just putting debian right on the phone, and let the universe use it, or not.16:27
Stskeepsi've done debian on a mobile device and i would like to state for the record, never again16:27
Stskeeps:P16:28
zmc_Really? Why's that16:28
Stskeepsbecause simply that if you want a mobile device that is power efficient, low on wakeups and low on memory, you can't use a normal distribution16:28
zmc_oh, none of those things are important to me, so *shrug*16:29
Stskeepsyeah, it matters to real consumer products :)16:29
alien_the maemo is the nearest you can get to Debian on a phone, IMHO16:29
zmc_I especially hate the android/windows thing of leaving all apps running all the time.16:29
zmc_most braindead thing I have ever heard of. It's an embedded device... so run everything at once, and do suspend-resume trickery16:29
Stskeepsi kinda wish that maemo continued with their hibernation thing16:30
zmc_I really liked where maemo was going, but I have heard from a lot of people that the development was less friendly than it could have been.16:30
Stskeepsmaemo had issues as well16:31
alien_zmc_: there was no IDE at that time, so you had to hack it on scratchbox16:31
alien_now there is qtcreator integration if you want to make qt apps for it16:32
zmc_I mean people submitting patches upstream, and being ignored.16:32
alien_but for core stuff still scratchbox must be used16:32
zmc_Also gtk+rpm would not have been my first choice16:32
Stskeepsit was gtk+deb in maemo16:32
Stskeepsthen qt+deb in harmattan, then qt+rpm in meego16:32
zmc_lol, anyone still maintaining harmattan?  I have to deal with rpms regularly for work. Yick.16:33
alien_they still make updates for it16:33
Stskeepsi actually like rpms better now, there were some tools in meego that made it a lot easier than debian16:33
Stskeepsalso, harmattan is about as closed source as it gets..16:33
Stskeepsmer's rpm too16:34
alien_but in mer you can generate spec files if you want from an easier yaml format16:34
Stskeepsyes16:34
alien_and that can also be used to build Debs, I guess16:35
Stskeepsthere was a lot of resistance to yaml from people in the start but they were converted fairly easily when it reduced workload of typical package work 80%16:35
zmc_Really?16:35
Stskeepsyeah16:35
Stskeepssec16:35
zmc_So it's like a spec file, that you feed to a tool to help you build/package?16:36
alien_the tool is called OBS and comes from OpenSuse16:36
alien_it can build RPM and Debs out of Spec files16:36
Stskeepszmc_: http://gitweb.merproject.org/gitweb?p=mer-core/xorg-x11-proto-renderproto.git;a=blob;f=xorg-x11-proto-renderproto.yaml;h=46c6066a5ca4df461a918de98e46be8a0b8f0473;hb=HEAD16:36
Stskeepsalien_: close but not exactly true ;) it uses .dsc and diff.gz still for debian16:37
alien_and the spec files can be reused from Fedora or generated from simple yaml16:37
zmc_Watching that nemo video and it looks nice.  How does integration work with non-nemo things.  Like say I want to run gnucash, or openoffice, or kivio?16:37
Stskeepszmc_: should work but the compositor is very fullscreen oriented16:37
alien_zmc_: there are no packages for all those yet, afaik16:37
zmc_Stskeeps : so if I want to run a window manager, I'm going to be fighting an uphill battle?16:38
Stskeepszmc_: it's OSS, hack it as you want16:38
Stskeeps:P16:38
zmc_alien_ : Most things I run, I can compile from source.16:38
alien_zmc_: there are multiple Wms available16:38
alien_the one from that video is handset-oriented16:39
zmc_I'm just worried that it's like going to be using RedHat again.  I spent so much time removing things they did, it was actually faster for me to just run LFS.16:39
alien_:)16:39
zmc_I saw a video a while ago of someone running gimp on the N900. and it was full-screen for all the windows, but it did look pretty usable.16:39
alien_zmc_: N900 was able to just run an ARM debian chroot16:40
alien_including any WM you had there16:40
alien_it was damn slow and not usable for a handset, but it worked16:40
zmc_Well, that's what I'm doing now on my Vision.  Problem I have is the overhead of android annoys me.16:41
alien_the N900 had very limited memory for this kind of stuff16:41
alien_256M is barely enough for itself16:41
alien_when you add a full Debian, the device swaps like hell16:42
zmc_We have a custom database application at work for invoicing and job management and such that uses a db connector and openoffice python bindings to generate invoices.  I managed to generate something like 50 invoices, toss them over nfs, preview them with xpdf and mail them to the clients from my phone16:42
alien_the N9 might work better, it has 1GB of RAM16:42
zmc_Phone got hot, but it did the job.  That's when I realized that I use the phone as a phone, like 2% of the time, and the rest of the time like a computer.  I looked at the specs, and it's faster than my workstation at home. (on paper)16:43
alien_and the Harmattan doesn't induce  as much overhead as android16:43
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zmc_400 - Invalid hash parameter - Got that from the link to the yaml file16:44
alien_http://tinyurl.com/82zz6w416:44
alien_zmc_: try this^^^16:45
zmc_alien_: Wow, that looks really clean16:45
alien_there is a tool called specify that converts that into a spec, and I guess it also downloads the source tarball16:45
Stskeepsit's a bad example, there's better, but for 70% of software, we can use generated specs straight16:46
zmc_So what do you guys run on your daily-driver devices?16:47
alien_for the other 30% we canhijack  Fedora source packages16:47
alien_:)16:47
Stskeepszmc_: i use n950 with harmattan right now, but nemo mobile is getting daily usable16:47
alien_zmc_: I have an N900, will get an N9 soon16:47
alien_but I don't run mer in there yet, just use a VM for it so far16:48
zmc_wow the 950 looks nice, I hadn't seen it before16:48
Stskeepsn950 was a developer device, only made in very few numbers16:48
alien_zmc_: it's a device only available for developers, can't be bought16:48
alien_some lucky bastards got them for free :)16:49
zmc_i just tossed it into ebay16:49
alien_I am a Nokia employee anc couldn't get one16:49
alien_:)16:49
zmc_Wow16:49
zmc_that's harsh16:49
alien_well, didn't really try to, I admit16:50
zmc_What did you have to do to get one?16:50
Stskeepssign up for a developer programme for open source developers16:50
Stskeepsor otherwise need one16:50
Stskeeps(company contracts)16:50
zmc_If you're a dev that has submitted over 100kloc then you get one. :D16:50
alien_there were only like 200 of them or so16:50
alien_200016:50
zmc_So, is there any kind of road map for world domination? :D16:53
zmc_Now that htc has unlocked their bootloaders, and kernel sources are released with new phones, it theoretically shouldn't be hard for anyone to port these things to any given android phone16:54
StskeepsGLES drivers for glibc are always an issue16:54
zmc_biggest stumbling block i can see is vid drivers16:54
zmc_exactly.16:54
alien_well, maybe there would be an use case for a mer-like distro based on uclibc16:55
zmc_How does nemo run without hardware acceleration?16:55
alien_or is only bionic uspported?16:55
zmc_glibc should be fine. I like to have a solid GNU foundation. :D16:55
zmc_I haven't spent too much time in android land as a dev.16:55
zmc_I have compiled a few things here and there, and I hated it. I mostly hide in my debian chroot16:56
Stskeepsalien_: i'm hoping that we can do more when i intend to split core and toolchain, but for now.. not easy16:56
zmc_or get out with connectbot16:56
alien_the drivers come as blobs linked against non-glibc libcs16:56
zmc_getting straight framebuffer shouldn't be too bad, but depending on what mer needs that could be REALLY slow.16:57
Stskeepsmer typically relies on GLES216:57
Stskeepsthough there's work into llvmpipe16:57
Stskeepsfor x86 at least16:57
zmc_igh, so there's no way to just write to /dev/fb0?16:57
Stskeepsthere is16:58
Stskeepswriting to /dev/fb0 ;)16:58
Stskeepsjust that qt may depends on gles2 in the future16:58
zmc_Well if it runs on X, I know that I have a kdrive around somewhere that is pure fb.16:59
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sledgeshttp://www.gta04.org and (for fun) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_jRI7InTpE  in-reply-to: <Stskeeps> i guess best we can hope is that someone someday makes a mer based phone :)17:00
Stskeeps:nod:17:01
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zmc_I think making a mer-based phone is the wrong approach.  Look how many people flash android roms every day.  If you could flash a mer rom as easily as cyanogenmod, and be able to switch back and forth, that would be a way to get a lot of people on board.  Just having one device, that probably won't be carrier-subsidized relegates the os to a hobbiest market.17:03
alien_the problem is that the UX is not that polished enough for 99% of the ones who would run such Mods17:05
alien_at least not yet17:06
sledgesit is easy to flash cyanogen. but how much [one-off] effort actually takes to come up with a working rom for certain device, and the team at cyanogenmod are working at it big time17:06
zmc_I can't say, since I haven't actually run mer yet, but the G1 at launch with android 1 was not very polished either.17:07
zmc_sledges : you are right, it is a bunch of  work, but it's a well-known process17:07
zmc_for the most part17:08
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Stskeepszmc_: technically we already have a mer based phone, nemomobile functions as a phone :)17:18
zmc_I'll be back in a bit, have to take my sister to the store.17:20
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Stskeeps'lo GildedStar17:23
GildedStarhey17:23
Stskeepswelcome :) what brings you here?17:24
GildedStarActually brought here from Jogglerwiki :)17:24
Stskeepshehe, some of us still work to put mer on joggler17:25
Stskeepsthough i have lost touch on what's new in it17:25
sledgeshow can I check if /usr/lib/libGLESv* are actually picked up/used by the system/Qt ?17:26
Stskeepssledges: qmlviewer -opengl will fail otherwise17:26
Stskeepsmake sure libGLESv2.so.2 and libEGL.so.1 points to your libGLESv2.so and libEGL.so17:27
Stskeepssymlink17:27
StskeepsGildedStar: so what do you hope to do with your joggler?17:28
StskeepsGildedStar: sorry, no dcc chat from me :) /query stskeeps is better17:30
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sledgesthank you Stskeeps17:44
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vgradehappy new year all19:23
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Stskeepsfor porting geeks, Mer on MIPS: http://pastie.org/310366920:46
Stskeepswe should really fix meego-release..20:46
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phaeronStskeeps:  isn't everyone out partying ?20:49
Stskeepsphaeron: probably, i'm home with wife and mother in law :P20:50
Stskeepstaking a quiet one this time around20:50
phaeronI'd say that's safe , considering the wild fireworks :D20:51
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Stskeepshmm, i wonder if this can be true20:54
Stskeeps8mb userland used with a shell prompt and systemd on mips20:54
Stskeepsdbus online, too20:54
Stskeepsie, RAM20:54
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M4rtinKnice ! :)21:06
zmcStskeeps : At home with the missus and kids, we've been sick and she doesn't want to go out this year.21:12
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Stskeepszmc: i'm utilizing the mail and irc peace to get some free time coding done ;)21:26
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zmcLooking at rolling up a generic kernel for the Vision.  Trying to get my cross-compilation toolchain up on this kubuntu box.21:31
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* Stskeeps discovers automake's "make installcheck"21:44
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hefeehello22:34
hefeeis it possible to run plasma-active on a nokia n9 via the n950 raw images?22:35
dm8tbrthere are instructions how to boot a custom kernel via usb22:37
Stskeepshttp://jon.severinsson.net/NemoN9/ may or may not work for it22:37
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hefeeok i'll give it a try22:39
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Stskeepshappy new year to all merfolk23:13
cybetteand you too :D23:14
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zmcStskeeps : Same to you.  Best wishes for a prosperous 2012!23:31
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zmcwhat's fST?23:51

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