Saturday, 2011-11-12

berndhshe just says that and hides someplace, keeps working00:00
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iekkuone friend of mine has slept 20h last "night", i started calculating and .....00:02
iekkulucky bastard has slept same time in on "night" than i do in 3 day00:02
iekku(if i sleep well)00:03
berndhsthat's unhealthy00:03
iekkui agree and said it to her :P00:03
berndhsalso consider that we only live 700,000 hours, so sleeping too much you miss a lot00:04
iekkubut i need to say, i don't agree with "older people needs less sleep"00:05
berndhsmy sleeping hours ahven't changed much over my life00:06
iekkuhave notice that when i'm getting older under 6h sleep /day isn't enough00:06
berndhsi need about 7 or so, with less I burn out in a few months00:07
berndhsthen I make so many mistakes its better to not even start working, so I dont go backwards00:07
iekkuthis autumns has been bad to me, trying to get sleep earlier, but problem is that i don't sleep well after 2 am00:07
berndhstry moving south to where the nights are not so long00:08
iekkuin the summertime the night is short...00:09
iekkuand the problem is same00:09
berndhsyes its confusing up north00:09
berndhscan't tell night from day by looking at the sun00:09
iekkui'm sleepless in 3rd generation..00:09
iekkubut i think it's time to go back to bed, try to get some sleep00:10
iekkuhave a nice evening :)00:10
lbtcount bugs :)00:10
berndhsread some boring research paper00:10
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iekkulbt, it just makes me worried if someone is taking care of those :P00:10
lbtwell, we only have 500:11
iekkui hope after this weekend mer and nemo has bz up and wiki help about the em00:11
* lbt is doing infra now00:12
lbtldap soon00:12
iekkuand there's wonderful bug master joining to both projects00:12
iekkuwe can play good and evil cops with him :P00:12
iekku--> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz00:13
iekkunot letting the bed bugs bite00:14
berndhsgood night00:15
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Stskeepstripzero: pong07:21
araujoStskeeps, o/07:22
Stskeepsmorn araujo07:23
araujoStskeeps, how it goes?07:24
Stskeepsjust woke up and verifying my OBS builds has finished up07:26
araujoStskeeps, nice latest nemo image :)07:30
araujoStskeeps, but, is there any problem with package integrity check during installation?07:30
Stskeepsyes there is, i'm fixing that in next mer release07:30
araujoStskeeps, for now safe to install with --no-gpg-checks , or what?07:31
araujoStskeeps, mm... it doesn't seem to work with that flag07:34
Stskeepswhere are you hitting the error:07:34
araujoStskeeps, latest nemo image? ... trying to install diff07:35
araujowarning: /var/cache/zypp/packages/mer-core-armv7hl/armv7hl/diffutils-2.8.1-1.1.Mer.armv7hl.rpm: Header V3 DSA/SHA1 Signature, key ID fff260fb: NOKEY07:36
Stskeepsaraujo: workaround: wget
Stskeepsrpm --import repomd.xml.key07:37
araujoThanks Stskeeps07:38
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narcisgarciaI have some questions about Mer GNU/Linux distribution.07:45
Stskeepsask away07:45
narcisgarciaIs RPM based or DEBian based for packages administration?07:46
narcisgarciaI understand that one Mer objective for Mer is to have a 100% L/GPL operating system in a device, but, how about device drivers?07:48
Stskeepsright, so, Mer (nowadays, i'm not sure what page you've been reading) is a open source core, which others take, combine with a UI and hardware adaptation07:49
Stskeepsthose UI and hardware adaptations are outside the project and can possibly have closed source in them07:49
Stskeepswe don't even deliver a kernel in Mer, :)07:49
narcisgarciaOk, is there any experience of assembling Mer + UI + Hardware?07:50
Stskeepsnarcisgarcia: i can show you some videos of people who have done it with amazing results?07:50
Stskeeps - Plasma Active on N950 on Mer core.07:51
Stskeeps - Mer + the Nemo project (handset)07:51
narcisgarciaI don't need proofs, I want to know the status of distribution and implementation.07:51
Stskeepswell, videos do a pretty good justice to showing what we've got going on07:51
Stskeeps is various images people have made, ie, installable softwarer07:52
narcisgarciaTaking example of Maemo (= Debian with closed drivers), what does replace Mer in terms of freedom?07:54
Stskeepsnarcisgarcia: Mer provides a stable set of software/giving a platform for others to build upon, both open and closed07:56
Stskeepsnarcisgarcia: is what Mer consists of07:56
Stskeepsa thin, 312 package core for others to take, collaborate on and build on top of07:56
Stskeepsall of it OSS, but if people want to make a product with closed source software on top of Mer, who are we to stop them?07:57
Stskeepsbecause in practice, people who will make products -will have to- add differentiation07:57
Stskeepsbut on the other hand, if you're capable of making an entirely open source product, Mer gives a strength usually reserved for companies who are able to hire a large bunch of linux engineers, as you don't have to do that part of the work yourself08:00
narcisgarciaOk, Mer is FLOSS with where someone can implement other software (open or closed). But I had understood that Mer was a project to replace some still closed part in mobile devices.08:01
narcisgarciaI still not see the exact aspect of Mer useful to replace closed software.08:02
Stskeepssort-of, the thing is that there isn't actually any openly developed mobile core08:02
StskeepsMeeGo was that but failed in focus and other areas08:02
narcisgarciaWhen you say «core», what are you talking about? Kernel? Boot? Calling application?08:03
Stskeepsnarcisgarcia: saw the gitweb above?08:03
Stskeepsthat's pretty much it08:03
Stskeepsa nice solid Linux Qt/QML/HTML5/JS core08:03
narcisgarciaDo you mean a complete distribution?08:04
Stskeepsnop, just a core, you still have to add things above to make it remotely useful08:04
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narcisgarciaI believe that all begins with a distribution project.08:04
Stskeepsadd a hardware adaptation and it boots into a qml viewer, add a UI and it boots into your UI08:04
Stskeepsright, so, it's a distribution but it's also a tool to make 'distributions'.. in practice, each product has their own unique distribution08:05
Stskeepsas it's a combination of a lot of software08:05
Stskeepsso it's just easier to think of it as a core that you add things on top of instead of distribution terms08:06
narcisgarciaI'm not an OS developer, and I'm also looking for a hardware-cross distribution for mobile devices, such as OpenWRT in routers.08:06
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Stskeepsbasically, the rationale is that everyone making a mobile linux product will have to cut, slice, combine, manage, package and merge the existing open source softwares that exist out there08:07
Stskeepsto make it fit in a mobile setting, also do own porting to architectures, get security updates, etc08:08
narcisgarciaIs there some project ready for production or testing, similar to what I'm looking for? (as the example of OpenWRT)08:08
Stskeepswhy not combine this effort, leaving out the areas that usually cause a lot of politics, such as user interfaces and hardware adaptations, so we can focus on what is important to all of us08:08
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Stskeepsnarcisgarcia: well, Mer is still growing up but already has people doing amazing things with it - after all, we just announced a little over a month ago :)08:09
narcisgarciaThe most important for me is maximum FLOSS of all parts working on my device.08:09
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Stskeepsi can tell you of the example of how that's put together08:10
narcisgarciaOk, I didn't know the young of project.08:10
Stskeepsthe Nemo thing08:10
narcisgarciaWhat is Nemo? Does have its web page?08:10
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Stskeepsit has a open source UI, but hardware adaptation, being for nokia n900, has some redistributable, but closed source, but to give you fast 3d and camera support, telephony, etc08:12
Stskeepsbrb breakfast08:12
narcisgarciaReturning to the begin of my asks; if Mer already has a package managing way (with RPM), I understand that it's also a distribution (customizable to device manufacturers)08:13
narcisgarciaOk, Nemo is the necessary (closed) part to interact with specific hardware.08:13
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norayrnarcisgarcia: no, Nemo is not a closed part to interact with the hardware08:19
norayrHardware adaptation is what can possibly contain those closed parts08:19
norayrread: divers08:19
norayrdrivers in the kernel08:20
norayrNemo is a complete ready to use distribution wwhich contains hardware adaptation (kernel which may have non free drivers) , mer itself as a core, and user interface08:21
Termananorayr, he left08:21
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* Stskeeps builds a new mer release08:24
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Termanavgrade, morning08:49
Stskeepsmorn vgrade08:49
vgradeStskeeps, did you hear from mdevey?08:50
vgradeok , I'll ping him another email08:51
Stskeepsvgrade: you don't have some MIPS based hardware by chance too do you?08:51
vgradeoh yes08:52
vgradeat least I think it is08:53
vgradesumvision cyclone mkv08:53
Stskeepsi plan to add a mips port in some weeks08:54
Stskeepsgot the base rpms already08:54
vgradebbl bowling08:58
Stskeepsmore for the debuginfo tale: -g1, 13mb debuginfo08:59
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Stskeepsmorn smoku09:16
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lbtmorning all09:24
Stskeepsmorn lbt09:24
Stskeepsi'm updating cobs's fakeobs so don't be surprised at data spike09:25
lbtjust looking at workers...09:25
lbtI really must debug that at some point09:25
Stskeepsi'm trying a challenge with myself of running a obs without webui on09:26
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Stskeepslbt: there's something truly screwed in the debugging symbols business of linux09:27
lbtI noticed some of the sizes09:27
Stskeepsqt with -g: 314mb, with -gdwarf-4 (top modern debugging format) 161mb, with -g1, 13mb debuginfo..09:28
Stskeepsyou have to wonder -wtf- -g actually covers09:28
Stskeepsand what is actually needed in a usual setting09:30
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Stskeepslbt: BTW, one challenge: CI when you're following release candidates/beta versions of some things09:39
Stskeepsie, CI from a Mer pov09:40
lbtyeah - I need to close down the infra first09:42
lbtlooking good though09:42
lbtI have a VM factory script for kvm now09:43
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lbtdid I tell you my dragonboard arrived09:53
lbtstill in box :(09:54
Stskeepsnop, but good to hear the coupon worked out09:54
Stskeepsi have other things i should be doing too but hopefully the hard work done now will pay off eventually :P09:54
lbtI'm sure09:55
lbtgot to talk to Pasi in a few mins too09:55
lbtare you about enough to make it 3-way ?09:55
Stskeepshmm, i should be09:57
Stskeepsskype acts odd atm though09:57
lbtand someone needs to be on a non-N90009:57
lbtas it can't initiate 3-way calls09:58
Stskeepsi'm on a non-n900, but linux ;)09:58
lbtthat's fine I think09:58
* Stskeeps watches rebuilds galore on cobs10:01
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lbtStskeeps: did systemd get approved?10:24
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Stskeepsmarko had a comment about %changes being in .spec10:25
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lbtnow that's odd - there's no way I put that in there10:28
Stskeepsosc vc?10:30
lbtI suspect doing osc chroot, then hacking on the spec in there10:32
lbtand copying back - it may do the concatenation10:32
lbtI'd have to repeat the process and find out where it happened10:32
Stskeepsyeah, osc build does the concatenation10:33
lbtso I knew the only changes I'd made were the kbd-model-map .... and did a git commit -a10:34
lbtah wel10:34
lbtBOSS should have pre-checked it too though :)10:35
Stskeepsyeah, :P10:35
Stskeepsbut not entirely there yet10:35
Stskeepsit's on my list to put the process on git10:35
lbtresubmitted anyway10:37
Stskeepsnext time around, remember change-id10:38
Stskeepsand click "abandon change" on the old ones10:38
lbtyou said that - I didn't understand10:38
Stskeepslbt: example, - see the Change-Id: in the top?10:39
Stskeepscopy that into the commit message and the new patchset appears under the old change10:39
Stskeepsas Change-Id: I3bb3321fe3902ba8c83dbd5479ab975827f86d5e , as an example10:40
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lbtso it's a way to say "use this commit as a correction of that bad one"10:41
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Stskeepsnote to self: 'mipsel' architecture is broken in obs10:51
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Stskeepscan't add a meta prj with it, but you can run a scheduler10:51
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Stskeepslbt: is there a release date for obs 2.3 yet btw?10:55
lbtnot really - "any time now"10:56
Stskeepsok, so in a couple of years, got it10:56
lbtAdrian was happy for us to deploy it as it's only final bug fixes at this point10:56
matrixxStskeeps: does the start bringup need to be pure QML or can I made it executable?11:04
matrixxStskeeps: I was thinking about adding a ripple shader where user touches the screen, with nice haptic feedback, but that's not _yet_ possible using QML11:04
* lbt thinks executable is fine11:06
lbtwe do Qt - not just QML11:06
lbtbut it should be sensitive to less capable devices11:06
matrixxI can though redo it with QML when we get qt511:07
matrixxhmm, true11:07
matrixxnot sure if opengl is a good idea after all :/11:07
Stskeepssome fallback mode if opengl isn't possible is good11:07
lbtwell that's what "if" is for :)11:07
matrixxyeah, ok, opengl with fallback mode that is then :)11:08
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matrixxmaybe even third mode for devices with very small screens, but let's see what I can come up with11:25
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vgradeI have the mkv1 but its said they are identical apart from sw12:35
vgradeIt seems to be hackable12:35
Stskeepsdoes it have usb?12:36
vgradelan/hdmi/usb decvice and usb host connections12:36
vgradeinternal HDD12:37
Stskeeps128mb ram is nice too12:37
vgradeMIPS 24K V7.812:37
rzrdoes it have a fan ?12:37
vgraderzr, don't think so12:39
rzrthis is a killer feature12:40
Stskeepsbecause fans kill?12:41
lbtmine does12:44
lbtI have an extractor fan and lots of decapitated wasp bodies in my server cupboard ...12:44
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lbtSage, Stskeeps: when you look at systemd can you make sure I put kbd-model-map in the right place12:52
Stskeeps%{systemd_dir} == %{datadir}/system/ , i think12:53
lbtyeah .. it's defined ... but you have to infer what it's for from the usage...12:57
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rzrback, btw laptop owners do you hears fans with your system is on idle ?13:07
Stskeepsrzr: you don't have one of those MIPS laptops by chance do you?13:09
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rzrno the only mips i tested where mediaplayer , nas and setop box13:12
rzrbut IICR there are some mandriva mips laptops13:12
rzri joined that community once13:13
_av500_longsoon is mips, no?13:13
Stskeepshappen to still have any of those devices?13:13
Stskeeps_av500_: yeah13:13
rzrthat's it13:14
rzrobsolete vaporware :)13:14
_av500_rzr: obsolete? stallman uses it13:15
rzri am taling about gdium13:16
_av500_me too13:16
rzri thought he was running an other device13:17
rzrthat one13:18
_av500_ok, yeelong13:18
_av500_but lemote did gdium too13:19
_av500_so its all the same13:19
_av500_stuff from china always ends up in 10 different brands all the same13:19
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rzrmer needs the RMS-UX :
_av500_xterm and ssh is all you need :)13:23
rzrxterm is the for luxurious mode13:24
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ShadowJKgdium seems(ed) crappier than yeelong13:36
ShadowJKatleast yeelong has a real harddrive?13:36
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lbtbefore we go too far we should make them use the more modern style that phaeon evolved13:58
Stskeepsprobably yeah13:58
Stskeepsjust wanted to move it out to git first13:58
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lbtvery sane13:59
pdanekhaha, "Don't be a poisonous person" link is new in topic? :)13:59
Stskeepspdanek: yeah..14:00
pdanekare you gonna have own pckg repos for Mer?14:02
Stskeepsdefine package repos14:02
pdanekwell I know there is OBS for MeeGo14:03
pdanekso for know you continue using MeeGo OBS?14:04
Stskeepsso, there is a OBS that does builds of Mer itself14:04
Stskeepswhich is the ~312 packages14:04
Stskeepsthen there's obs'es where you can build against Mer, such as's community OBS14:05
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Stskeepsvgrade: nice14:51
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Jucatovgrade: cool! :)14:56
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* Stskeeps stretches15:40
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vgradeStskeeps, have some patches from dcarr to get accel15:56
vgradebut memory is an issue15:57
Stskeepscan imagine15:58
vgradealso discovered N950 plasma was using Xrender rather then GLES, plasma not recognising it has gles.  Can be set manually.  I have eye candy effects now15:59
StskeepsXrender is quite slow, yea15:59
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vgradeI think plasma is a no go on Pi until memory usage is worked on16:00
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Stskeepsand multi process GLES..?16:01
vgradeI talked to the kwin guy about the BCM init stuff and he agve me some pointers16:03
vgradegoing to be well out of my depth though with this16:04
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vgradekwin comment "any initialization code would have to go to scene_opengl_egl.cpp and compositingprefs.cpp"16:06
Stskeepsi regularly go out of my depth, that's how i learn :P16:06
Stskeepsjust as long as it's okay to scream i'm drowning once in a while..16:06
ali1234Stskeeps: any idea why the mailing list posts from gmail get flagged as possibly fake?16:08
vgradeits all moot anyway until memory footprint can be improved16:08
Stskeepsali1234: i would think bad header or something, so it doesn't see it as a mailing list post16:09
ali1234well yes. can we get it fixed?16:10
Stskeepsali1234: well, would be good to figure out what causes it16:10
ali1234i'm reading google help forums, they are not much use, might post something16:10
Stskeepsi think it might be related to the empty To: header16:11
ali1234is it mailman?16:11
Stskeepssome other sw16:11
* Stskeeps adds to postit16:13
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Stskeepsi'd ask you to file a bug but i'd like you to wait until we have ldap auth up and going :P16:13
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ali1234apparently it is something to do with SPF records16:15
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lbtwe should have SPF setup16:31
ali1234should as in it has already been done? or should as in someone should do it?16:33
lbtsomeone should do it16:33
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ali1234yes, that's the conclusion i reached too16:34
lbtI don't know the details of the lists side16:34
lbtI have a placeholder in the DNS and it's on my todo16:34
lbtldap first16:34
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smokuStskeeps: the ML has all the headers recommended by google for the ML posts. even Precedence: list16:52
smokumaybe the lack of the To: header is a problem. I will add it then.16:52
Stskeepsremind me again what software it was?16:54
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lbtsmoku: but we should have SPF in the DNS16:54
smokulbt: the posts do not originate from the server, but are just routed. but it couldn't hurt. ;-)16:56
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* Stskeeps runs first MIPS obs build17:23
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* _av500_ wonders how many MIPS MIPS has17:34
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* dm8tbr wonders how many MIPS the OBS MIPS qemu for MIPS has17:37
Stskeepsdm8tbr: i'm actually using user mode/binary emulation17:38
Stskeepsso it's not -that- bad17:38
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Stskeepswb agi - did you ever end up buying that n900?17:42
* _av500_ waits for dm8tbr to punt him an n950....17:42
dm8tbr_av500_: sorry, only one is that I have and I don't even own it17:43
_av500_ownership is overrated17:43
Stskeepsautoconf surprises me at times17:44
Stskeepschecking for doxygen... no17:44
Stskeepschecking for dot... NO17:44
dm8tbrchecking for latex...17:44
agiStskeeps: sure! long time ago :-) hope it lasts for ever (seeing the choices nowadays)17:44
Stskeepsagi: just don't put the usb port in any situation where it might be broken ;)17:45
Stskeepsnokia n9 isn't half bad though17:45
agiheh, ok. will do :-)17:45
agimissing a keyboard...17:45
Stskeepsagi: ever tried out meego community edition on it?17:45
Stskeepssurprisingily the on screen keyboard is quite nice to type with17:46
Stskeepsfeels like real keys17:46
agiyes, long time ago. I didn't have much spare time the last 6 months17:46
Stskeepswe're back in 2008/2009 anyway and Mer is alive ;)17:46
agitoo many changes in direction from the companies17:47
Stskeepsyeah.. but learned enough to do things right17:47
agicool, so are you (Mer) working just on N900 or a more wide set of devices?17:48
Stskeepswider set, Mer is just a core, people put a UI on top and a hardware adaptation and it's magic ;)17:49
Stskeepsso very portable and very useful17:49
Stskeepsbeagleboard, n900, n950/n9, n810, raspberry pi, PC type devices, iMX chipsets etc etc17:49
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agin950 :-)'''''' would kill for one17:51
Stskeepshehe, it's not as good as advertised, has it's own set of problems17:52
Stskeepsi am going to buy a n9 to actually use as phone17:52
agiI saw one and it seem quite nice. And using is just as phone??? really??? :-D17:53
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Stskeepswell, not only17:54
Stskeepsbut i have signal issues on my n95017:54
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Stskeepswhich makes it annoying for me to actually use it mobile17:57
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agiindeed, it's a great device, but if you carry it with you, it should be able to work as a phone17:59
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rzr`Stskeeps: no freerunner ?18:23
Stskeepsrzr`: we don't have an armv4t port18:23
Stskeepsnor armv518:23
rzr`i mean in your personnal collection18:23
Stskeepsit's borrowed out18:24
rzr`i have the greenphone too18:24
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Stskeepsrzr`: my personal collection: a couple of dead 770's, two n800's, one n810, two n900, a smartq5, omapzoom2, joggler, exopc, ideapad s10-3t.. etc18:25
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rzr`only the zaurus miss18:28
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Stskeepsrzr`: came into mobile linux too late for zaurus18:39
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pdanekno freerunner? :-O18:54
Stskeepspdanek: it got a restraining order on me after i tried to hold it out over my balcony until it turned useful18:55
Stskeeps(i live on 9th)18:55
pdanekI think SHR is not that bad18:56
pdanekoriginal OpenMoko, yes... :-/18:56
Stskeepsonly thing i really liked on it was the gp18:56
pdanekI see18:57
Stskeepsbut if anyone wants to do a armv4t port of mer, it's entirely possible18:57
Stskeeps(and easy)18:58
pdanekbut look at the MeeGo, I don't think MeeGo ever had actually better end-user usability than SHR distribution for FreeRunner, am I wrong? :)18:58
pdanektoday's FreeRunner is quite usable I think18:59
Stskeepshehe, probably19:00
Stskeepsi gave up quite quickly19:00
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* Stskeeps twitches19:01
Stskeepsfurther down, don't include doc packages19:02
pdanekmaybe you can test SHR on N900, even if it's a bit less usable than GTA02, only unstable version available19:03
pdanekbut I think it's definitely worth to try for 1 day :) probably lot of effort was put into it19:03
Stskeepsthe insane crap that packages do at tmes19:03
Stskeepspdanek: will do19:04
pdanekeven if I didn't test it on N900 yet :-/19:04
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Stskeepsevening xrura19:16
ali1234armv4 is used in a lot of NAS systems curently19:19
ali1234openwrt isn't really a good fit, they run from a partition on the hard drive19:19
ali1234they seem to use a weird bodged up version of debian19:19
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xruxahi guys19:33
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pdanekali1234: so you indicate utilization of Mer in NAS boxes? :)19:37
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Stskeepsfor servers, something else would probably be good :P19:38
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pdaneksadly FreeNAS is not for ARM :(19:40
_av500_maybe OpenNAS or NetNAS?19:41
pdanekthere is OpenNAS or NetNAS? :-O19:42
pdanekI don't know about it19:42
pdanekmaybe you mean *BSD :-)19:43
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Stskeepslbt, btw, /chanserv deop #mer ;)20:29
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* Stskeeps wonders idly if autoreconf does a couple of million digits of pi just for fun20:41
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