Friday, 2011-11-11

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gotcluejust read the wiki. you guys have it wrong in so many ways, I don't know what to say other then FAIL! I predict you have the most shity community next to none at all. I won't even suggest to join a other/new project, because you have now future and only lower the quality.00:05
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king_aoeugotclue: that's a constructive opinion00:06
gotcluei am pretty sure you are the kind of guys who can't get things done.00:06
king_aoeubut i do agree with you on some points00:06
king_aoeui'm not part of this community, i'm just like you00:06
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king_aoeui'm interested in mobile computing and its success, and i don't think project like this do it right, but i may be wrong00:07
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king_aoeui haven't read the wiki yet, but your first intervention makes me want to00:07
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gotclueking_aoeu: I might sound bad, but after reading the wiki I had a bad case of facepalming.00:07
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king_aoeui predict the same will happen to me00:08
king_aoeubut mer's community can't be worse than the tizen one00:08
king_aoeuhave you heard about tizen?00:08
gotclueyeah, came from there.00:09
king_aoeuwhat's your opinion about them?00:09
king_aoeudo you think they should be more transparent?00:09
KaziKluBey_N900ouch...mer takes some punches tonight00:09
king_aoeuit's nothing personal guys00:09
king_aoeuwhen i think a project is doomed to fail, i feel bad for people contributing to it00:10
king_aoeui don't hate anyone00:10
berndhsking_aoeu: actually I think it is your personality, you're not happy with anything00:10
king_aoeui don't know much about mer, so i can't comment yet00:10
king_aoeuberndhs: you have a point, i'm not easily satisfied00:10
king_aoeubut i don't think it's necessary a bad thing00:11
gotclueking_aoeu: not a good one opinion. at least they have industry support so they are a bit better of then this mer guys here. I won't like tizen, I think.00:11
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berndhsking_aoeu: and the down side of that, for you, is probably that you won't do it yoursefl either00:11
KaziKluBey_N900The main people are at sleep now. They return in about 7 hours00:11
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* KaziKluBey_N900 the booze is doing the talking...00:12
king_aoeui don't think talking to them would change anything, since i'm not really interested in mer anyway (being just a core)00:12
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king_aoeugotclue: tizen has industry support, that's right, but the fact that they aren't transparent at all pisses me off00:12
berndhsking_aoeu: what do you want, and who do you think will make it for you ?00:12
king_aoeuthe main reason i'm here is to find people like me, that have a vision for mobile computing which is different  from what we're used to soo00:13
king_aoeugrids of icons, widgets, i want to change that00:13
gotclueI know some nicks in this channel from openaos.  they exactly the guys that begin stuff but can't get it done.00:13
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berndhsI don't take criticism seriously from people who do nothing themselves00:14
KaziKluBey_N900Well,the time has come my friends. Thi is it!00:14
berndhsall right, sleep well00:14
king_aoeugotclue: the idea and philosophy of a project is more important that the people it's composed of00:14
king_aoeugn00:15
king_aoeuberndhs: i think you should consider their criticism00:15
king_aoeubut i can't force you to00:15
gotclueking_aoeu: but the philosophy in this case is even worse.00:15
king_aoeuthat's the problem00:16
berndhsi think mer is extremely promising00:16
berndhsvery useful for people/companies who want to build something themselves00:16
king_aoeuif it's interesting to you, maybe00:17
gotclueberndhs: which companies? HOW does it look promising??? I don't get it.00:17
king_aoeubut personally, as an user, i don't care about that. in fact, it makes it even worse00:17
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berndhsyes, I'm not looking for a ready made solution, I want to actually make something00:17
berndhsas a user, you can come and buy my product when I have it ready00:18
berndhsor as a contributor you can help me make it00:18
king_aoeuBuilding a core for companies to use leads to many companies making many different os. As an user, i don't want a variety of OS, I want to use an OS with a big userbase, so it gets developer support. Mer doesn't seem to solve this problem, it seems to make it worse.00:19
gotclueif you have a company why not employ some devs, make it and if its done, ask about opensource guys? hows that?00:19
berndhswhy do you care what OS other end-users use? what difference does it make to you ?00:19
king_aoeudeveloper support00:19
king_aoeufor exemple, i'm a windows phone user00:20
berndhsI think you just like telling people what to do :)00:20
king_aoeui want people to use windows phone, as the more people use it, the more app will be availaable for it00:20
berndhsyou won't even know what other people use00:20
* KaziKluBey_N900 everyone is blinded by iStuff nowadays...opensorce will be the NEXT thing...00:20
berndhsI don't want everyone to do the same thing, the boredom would make people unstable00:21
king_aoeuKaziKluBey_N900, open source won't succeed unless you agree on some standards00:21
king_aoeuberndhs: what is more important, not being bored or having apps?00:21
berndhsking_aoeu: what standards for example?00:21
king_aoeuthe more os, the less app each of them will have00:21
berndhsking_aoeu: tehre will be many apps, there already are00:21
berndhsnonsense00:21
king_aoeuyou don't understand00:22
berndhsif there is only 1 OS, progress will stop fairly soon00:22
berndhsyou will get your 2012 version, then then 2012 version in 2013, in 2015,....00:22
king_aoeuit's like if you were saying that you don't care what language other talk in, as long as you talk the language you want to00:22
KaziKluBey_N900Sure,but in my world I can see that happening. People will realize that in a near future00:22
wmarone_king_aoeu: which works out pretty well, I think everyone on the planet speaking one language would be a loss00:22
king_aoeuKazi: sure what? we need standards?00:22
berndhsI don't care what languages other people talk in while they are not talking to me00:23
berndhsof the 7 billion people, I talk to maybe a few thousand00:23
king_aoeuwmarone_: you still can't say what other people talk in isn't important, as you can't communicate with them. I don't agree that a language diversity is a great thing.00:23
wmarone_king_aoeu: but I can communicate with them, if need be00:24
king_aoeuberndhs: that means you don't have access to so much content, since you can't read it00:24
berndhsI don't even speak the same language all day00:24
king_aoeuwmarone_: how?00:24
berndhsI can read 2 languages fluently like a native, and a few more at a simple level00:24
wmarone_well, if I plan on interacting with people who don't speak my language, I can learn theirs00:25
king_aoeuberndhs: and?00:25
berndhsI can read dozens of programming languages00:25
KaziKluBey_N900king:I just had a vision earlier tonight when people realized that opensource is the way of doing things. And I hope it'll come true00:25
berndhswhy should I want everyone to use one languages ?00:25
king_aoeuberndhs: so? is it good in any way? let's learn languages just for the sake of it then...00:25
* wmarone_ curses MS for this monoculture-worship that plagues computing00:25
wmarone_king_aoeu: that's what I did :D00:25
king_aoeuKaziKluBey_N900: there's no other way than open source. Any other way is foolish and retarded. You can't create value and not share it with others.00:26
berndhspeople who are too dumb to do things in more than 1 way won't get any smarter if you limit the rest of the population00:26
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king_aoeuwmarone_: why? you don't have to learn other languages if there are no other. It gives your more time to use the language, which is good. No?00:27
wmarone_no00:27
wmarone_because it starves people of diversity00:27
wmarone_it constrains thought00:27
king_aoeuberndhs: most languages aren't different enough from one another to justify the existence of this diversity. It's not like if there were 4 langugaes, each specialized in one field. I would agree with that.00:28
wmarone_technical monocultures are as problematic as biological monocultures00:28
berndhsthe reason there are so many borrowed words in most languages is that 1 language doesn't express everything equally well00:28
king_aoeuberndhs: i agree with that, but that doesn't justify the 1000 of languages.00:29
berndhsand who has to "justtify" the variety? is there someone who has to give permission ?00:29
wmarone_exactly, there is no need to justify the existence or use of other languages00:29
berndhswhy would I need permission from anybody to speak in some language ?00:29
king_aoeuwmarone_: if diversity is necessary for evolution, ok. But when we realize one thing is better than the other, we have to kill the "not so good" one, not try to keep it alive for the sake of "diversity"00:29
berndhsor why would I need permission from anyone to make a different UX ?00:29
king_aoeuberndhs: because it's useless. if nothing justifies something, it's useless and thus, should not exist00:30
wmarone_king_aoeu: and thus languages that don't adapt often die off. explicitly exterminating languages or other ideas and modes of thinking for the sake of something ill defined is ridiculous00:30
berndhsno you're not answering, who is in a posiotion to judge and say I can't do it ?00:30
king_aoeuberndhs: i'm not saying you need permission, but you hurt a lot of people by making so.00:30
berndhsnot why, the why is simple00:30
berndhsthe why is because i want to00:31
wmarone_king_aoeu: your appeals to a non-existent authority are sad00:31
berndhsI dont hurt anybody, nobody has to use my products00:31
KaziKluBey_N900king: Yes,but I'm thinking when people turn away from the closed environment in the iWorld and understands the benefits of openness. We agree there I' sure :)00:31
king_aoeuberndhs: you hurt by not contributing00:31
wmarone_who says he isn't contributing?00:32
king_aoeuKazi: my comment was mostly an agreement, i just disagree about the way things are done in the opensource world. But i'm 100% for it in theory00:32
* KaziKluBey_N900 slightly drunk at the moment00:32
king_aoeui'll try to find an analogy00:32
wmarone_king_aoeu: I think you are trying to paste a closed source, Microsoft style environment on something that is fundamentally not that00:33
king_aoeui never supported closed-sourceness00:33
gotcluecontributing? to what? for the sake of it? this mer is seems to do all the bad things that meego already sucked in.00:33
gotcluestupid thing.00:34
wmarone_king_aoeu: no, but that seems to be the source of your ideas. You can't control or dictate what other people do when working with open source.00:34
wmarone_gotclue: wait, so now you're gonna start trolling or something?00:34
king_aoeui could do an analogy with religion, but i don't want to affect some people00:34
berndhsking_aoeu: suppose I pick one uniform way of doing things, and I can enforce it, would you be happy then ?00:35
king_aoeuwmarone_: but some people are ignorant and don't understand that by working selfishly on meaningless stuff, they aren't contributing to th ings that matter to others00:35
gotcluewmarone_: where am I wrong?00:35
wmarone_gotclue: it's up to you to back up your argument, not for me to disprove a wide swipe like that00:35
KaziKluBey_N900I think mer+nemo,or other UX feels fresh00:35
berndhsking_aoeu: but you yourself are not contributing anything00:35
wmarone_king_aoeu: so I cannot work on what I want, but I must instead work on what others want?00:36
king_aoeuberndhs: i'm not talking about any sanction here. Just saying you should use your good judgment to realize that some stuff is not worth doing00:36
berndhsking_aoeu: itis worth doing if I like it00:36
king_aoeuberndhs: in a way, i'm contributing to the world by trying tomake you realize this00:36
gotcluewmarone_: but thats it! I don't know where to begin, so bad it is!00:36
wmarone_gotclue: then your argument is hollow and carries no weight00:36
king_aoeugotclue: do we agree there?00:36
berndhswho's permission do I need to do what I want in a way I want to ?00:36
king_aoeulet's say you live in a society00:37
king_aoeuand the yfeed you, teach you, etc00:37
berndhsking_aoeu: no tell me who can give or deny permission ? not you00:37
gotclueKing_aoeu: pretty much. you seem to have common sense. I miss this so much in the embedded world.00:37
* KaziKluBey_N900 bad mood rising00:37
king_aoeuand then, when you're an adult, you decide to suicide, because you want to00:37
wmarone_king_aoeu: that's a stupid analogy00:38
king_aoeumaybe00:38
wmarone_no, it is. try harder.00:38
king_aoeubut it has similar points00:38
berndhsking_aoeu: then you should start to contribute to something, anything, in a positive way00:38
king_aoeubut why is it stupid?00:38
berndhsking_aoeu: instead of just telling others they do it wrong00:38
king_aoeuwhy shouldn't the person suicide?00:38
king_aoeubecause he can't help society after that?00:39
wmarone_king_aoeu: because someone who kills themself cannot contribute whatsoever. someone who lives can always contribute.00:39
wmarone_king_aoeu: and honestly, yes, why shouldn't they? If they really want to.00:39
king_aoeuwhat if everyone decide it's a good idea?00:39
king_aoeushould we stop them?00:39
king_aoeuwe need them00:39
wmarone_king_aoeu: yet another stupid point00:39
berndhsif someone really wants to leave, you should let them go00:39
king_aoeuit's as stupid for you than your "but i want to do this" to me00:40
berndhsif you want someone to stay to work for you, that's selfish00:40
king_aoeunot work for me, work for society00:40
king_aoeui'm talking about what open source really is00:40
* KaziKluBey_N900 abill,is that you? ;)00:40
wmarone_king_aoeu: here's the thing. you're trying to dictate what others can and cannot do00:40
berndhsI don't take anything away from other people by doing what I want on my computers00:40
king_aoeuyou don't seem to understand the hconcept of open source berndhs00:40
berndhsyes I do00:40
berndhsi use open tools and make my work available00:40
gotclueberndhs: if someone wants to bang his head against a wall how to contribute there, other than tell him "Thats some reeeeaaally stupid idea, don't do it".00:41
king_aoeuwhat if a want to kill you? am i allowed? who can dictate if i cant or not?00:41
wmarone_king_aoeu: your argument is becoming increasingly stupid00:41
berndhsking_aoeu: you would be hurting me and others who want me around00:41
king_aoeuso? you want to dictate what i cant and can't do?00:41
king_aoeucan*00:41
lbtdo you guys realise how much troll-fed backlog you're generating :D00:41
berndhsno I dont care what you do00:41
wmarone_king_aoeu: no, see, this is why we have laws and not anarchy00:42
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king_aoeuyou agree with laws, but not with common sense?00:42
lbtany chance you could take it to #meego-bar please00:42
king_aoeulet's say i believe in the spaghetti monster00:42
berndhsnot your sense :)00:42
king_aoeui spend 10 hours a day praying the spaghetti monster00:42
king_aoeuhe's my god00:42
king_aoeupeople follow me00:42
lbtberndhs: wmarone_ at least you should :)00:42
king_aoeuthey do the same00:42
king_aoeuyou would not try to c onvince me i may be wrong?00:43
king_aoeuyou would let me do this if i think it's what i want to?00:43
wmarone_sure, have fun ;p00:43
* KaziKluBey_N900 yawns00:43
king_aoeuhonestly, you would not try to convince me it's a bad idea?00:43
king_aoeuyou would let everyone do that00:43
* wmarone_ hands king_aoeu some meatballs00:43
king_aoeuyour familiy, etc?00:43
berndhsanyway i have work to do to make the world more to my liking :)00:43
king_aoeuyou surrender?00:44
king_aoeuat this point?00:44
wmarone_lol, surrender00:44
king_aoeui'm asking you a simple question00:44
wmarone_you have won nothing00:44
king_aoeuwould you? yes or no00:44
king_aoeuyou're stubborn00:44
berndhsI go change the world, while you keep complaining00:44
gotclueking_aoeu: seriously, read the wiki. there is no sense in discuss with this guys. they won't get it.00:44
* KaziKluBey_N900 OT,anyone?00:44
lbtguys please ... this is OT00:44
king_aoeugotclue: i think we agree there, but i feel bad for them00:44
king_aoeuok, i'll stop right now00:45
king_aoeui'm relieved that at least one person agrees with me00:45
king_aoeuotherwise i think suicide wouldn't be such a bad idea00:45
gotclueI am only still here, because I can't sleep yet.00:45
KaziKluBey_N900king: had some scnapps tonight?00:45
wmarone_trolls like trolls, obviously00:45
king_aoeuKazi: nope, w hy?00:45
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king_aoeuwmarone_: someone that has common sense is a troll now?00:45
KaziKluBey_N900king: or something else. you seem speeded00:46
king_aoeuwmarone_: can you describe me selfishness and tell me if you agree with it or not please?00:46
wmarone_king_aoeu: #meego-bar00:46
king_aoeuKazi: i'm always like that00:46
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KaziKluBey_N900king: ok.that explains it. let's not argue.join forces and make mer+nemo conquer00:49
gotclueKing_aoeu: the way I see it, they only wan't to profit but are to incompetent to get things done themself. they might be able to write some lines of code but then their ego comes in and it sucks.00:51
KaziKluBey_N900what i have seen there are some really sharp minds running this show00:51
king_aoeuit's one-sided00:51
gotclueI bet, if I'd tell them to join debian or openemedded they'd bitch how much they hate it because it doesn't fit their incompetence.00:58
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KaziKluBey_N900Yeah,yeah. We'll see,but I hope to see my n900 uitilize it's full potential01:03
gotcluelike 100% cpu for UX. wow, that makes sense.01:04
KaziKluBey_N900nemo seems alright,plasma not there yet01:06
gotclueseriously. for n900 I rather look at SHR with enlightenment and its three devs. nemo and plasma both suck.01:08
king_aoeucan i see a nemo screenshot?01:08
KaziKluBey_N900seen the video on youtube?01:08
king_aoeugotclue: i don't know if you're a designer or ergonomist or anything, but look at this diaporama and try not to laugh http://plasma-active.org/01:09
king_aoeuif you have no sense of design and bad taste, nevermind, you won't understand01:09
king_aoeuall i find is "finding nemo" stuff01:09
KaziKluBey_N900search: mer+nemo01:09
KaziKluBey_N900and dark...something01:09
gotclueI even tried plasma already. It is so bad... sooo baaaad. simply stupid.01:10
gotclueslow and buggy also01:10
KaziKluBey_N900gc: on n900?01:10
gotcluesomething similar. it's not usable. you must have been brain damaged, to like plasma. sorry, but thats the way I see it.01:12
KaziKluBey_N900http://youtube.com/watch?v=pCCxjO0CXjw01:12
king_aoeumer means sea01:12
king_aoeuyou want me to find french nemo video?01:12
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KaziKluBey_N900there it is01:12
king_aoeuthx01:12
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KaziKluBey_N900looks promising to me. it's wip as we all know01:14
gotcluelool01:15
king_aoeufrom what i see, nemo is miles ahead of plasma01:16
gotcluehere: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKn4VyEFUQs I don't like the enlightment people, but at least they are competent in their stuff.01:16
king_aoeui don't like how rounded the icons are (nor the icon concept)01:16
king_aoeugotclue: sorry, i don't like it01:17
gotcluenemo is broken, like meego ux was. it won't work on other devices then n900 and even there it is slow as hell, bug ridden and mostly unsable.01:18
gotcluebelive me, it's bad.01:18
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king_aoeudon't tell me the os in the video you sent me is good and usable01:20
king_aoeuit's a desktop os in a phone, come on01:20
KaziKluBey_N900me?01:21
gotclueme?01:21
KaziKluBey_N900hehe01:21
king_aoeugotclue01:21
KaziKluBey_N900it seemed fast. but i guess i had better hatdware?01:22
gotcluemaybe it doesn't depend on 3d-hardware?01:23
KaziKluBey_N900meaning?01:24
gotclueI am saying to depend on 3d-hardware only to draw a button, is a failure right at the beginning.01:25
KaziKluBey_N900ok,i don't know that stuff. i'm just a basic user01:26
wmarone_gotclue: how so, especially when the target hardware includes it across the board?01:28
gotcluetry SHR. there is a image for you to test I am sure. you will likely run into some problems with audio and stuff, but the next stable release will be nice.01:29
gotcluewmarone_: simple, get stuff working in 2d fast and realiable. 3d accerlation could still be useful as a option, to depend on it before just won't do it, there just isn't much support for it in the linux world.01:32
KaziKluBey_N900gotclue: i've seen that earlier. do they make a bootable image with sd-card and u-boot?01:32
KaziKluBey_N900as i do now with nemo01:33
king_aoeuwhy don't you people use Windows Phone?01:33
gotcluecan't say. please look at their website for instructions. http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Devices/NokiaN90001:34
wmarone_because I want something I have control over, as a result I am still on my N90001:34
KaziKluBey_N900ssscchhhh!01:34
KaziKluBey_N900shr seem to have stalled. i read about it earlier but havent heard any recent stuff about it01:36
KaziKluBey_N900The N900 sure is a uggly duckling01:37
KaziKluBey_N900or a late bloomer01:37
gotcluetake a look at they source, they are still active. not much people but they are busy. they migrate to new openembedded-core, so its much under the hood work.01:37
KaziKluBey_N900they should anounce their activity on talk.maemo.org aswell01:38
gotcluenah, meamo/meego/mer they don't get important stuff. they want slow and buggy UX they could sell to... I don't know who.01:40
KaziKluBey_N900wmarone_: do you think nemo could perform better than maemo in the longrun?01:41
wmarone_probably01:41
gotcluebased on what?01:41
wmarone_he asked relative to maemo01:42
wmarone_nemo already runs on more hardware01:42
gotclueok, nemo runs on more hardware then maemo. thats something I can agree with, and I am nice enough to not ask on how much more hardware.01:45
KaziKluBey_N900well it's been a bumpy ride with maemo however the mer+nemo-route seem rather steady. With limited resources though01:45
gotclueor the level of "runs".01:45
king_aoeudidn't nokia make nemo?01:46
wmarone_no01:46
king_aoeubut it's the same as meego01:46
king_aoeumeego is better than nemo then01:47
king_aoeuwhy did they make it shittier?01:47
king_aoeumeego wasn't bad01:47
king_aoeuthe n9 seems like a pretty slick device01:47
king_aoeuit's just like the Nokia Lumia 800 (i may get it)01:47
wmarone_the n9 doesn't run meego01:47
KaziKluBey_N900short story,politics01:48
king_aoeuno?01:48
king_aoeubut nokia annonced the n9 with meego...01:48
king_aoeuwith the swiping and stuff01:48
wmarone_it's "meego harmattan"01:48
KaziKluBey_N900i just repeat what i heard on the forum01:48
wmarone_it has more in common with Maemo01:48
KaziKluBey_N900i hope that nemo and meego harmattan will play together soon.01:50
KaziKluBey_N900appwise01:50
wmarone_it should be possible, at least for Qt applications01:50
gotcluedebian with nokia flavor, meego app compatibility and properitay UX that only nokia has sources for.01:51
KaziKluBey_N900it feels like we N900 owners are left behind. but that was also the case with the older nits,as it seems01:52
KaziKluBey_N900but nemo seems a lot more promising then maemo and cssu01:53
berndhsmaking an app that works equally well on harmattan and nemo is not hard at all01:54
KaziKluBey_N900let's make it happen :)01:55
gotcluelol?01:55
KaziKluBey_N900come on,cheer up!01:56
KaziKluBey_N900:)01:56
KaziKluBey_N900:(01:56
KaziKluBey_N900nightime OT on #mer is ok,right?01:57
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KaziKluBey_N900huh,i'm logging in01:57
berndhslosing track of your multiple personalities ?01:58
KaziKluBey_N900my stationery started by itself..02:00
gotclueok. someday the arm devices are fast and powerfull enough to run at usable speed, just not n900. (ignoring everything else the speaks against nemo and co)02:00
king_aoeua powerful device is not required02:00
king_aoeutake exemple of wp702:00
king_aoeuhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_jwdaEKwcs&feature=related02:00
king_aoeu(hater's gonna hate)02:00
gotcluei know wp7.02:00
king_aoeudo you like it?02:01
gotcluei meant nemo for powerfull devices, forgot  a word.02:01
berndhspowerful devices are comming, the chip manufacturers don't knwo wha to do with the real restate02:02
king_aoeuwp7 is just an exemple of a mobile os that doesn't need lots of power too run super smoothly02:02
berndhs"need" has nothing to do with this industry, nobody needs any of this02:02
king_aoeuwell, android needs a powerful device to run smoothly02:03
KaziKluBey_N900i wonder if wp7 will be as hackable as a desktop os. if so it'll be pretty intersting02:03
berndhsnobody needs a smart phone02:03
wmarone_android has architectural problems that inhibit it from running smoothly02:03
gotcluelike maemo, mer and meego02:03
wmarone_KaziKluBey_N900: they're throwing people a bone with ChevronWP7, but I doubt they will allow it to get any moreso02:03
wmarone_gotclue: matter of optimization, everyone says the N9 is as smooth as can be as well02:04
king_aoeuchevronWP7 is nice02:04
berndhsn950 is pretty smooth02:05
king_aoeuoh, here's my question:02:05
king_aoeuwhy don't you contribute to Android?02:05
king_aoeu(or fork it, or idk)02:05
king_aoeuwhat's wrong with android?02:05
wmarone_Google02:05
king_aoeuwhat does that mean?02:05
wmarone_android is nothing without google02:06
KaziKluBey_N900i think i the line of xp,win7 etc that you can fin for "free" online .02:06
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KaziKluBey_N900hm,my desktop starts and goes offline in 10 mins02:07
king_aoeuwmarone_: do you think that mer is better than android without google?02:08
wmarone_mer at least shares a common base with the rest of the Linux/FOSS world02:09
king_aoeui think android is crap, and it's not less crappy without google02:09
wmarone_android, outside a few bits and pieces, is entirely insular and top down02:09
king_aoeuAndroid doesn't?02:09
king_aoeuwmarone_: and what's the issue with it?02:09
wmarone_dalvik, bionic, the rendering subsystem, etc. all exist nowhere but android02:09
king_aoeuwhat if it doesn't share any root with linux?02:10
king_aoeudoes it make it bad?02:10
wmarone_bad? no02:10
wmarone_kill my interest? yes02:10
king_aoeuwhat?02:10
king_aoeuthere's something i don't understand right here02:10
king_aoeuyou have an open mobile os02:10
king_aoeuthat you can use and customize as you want02:10
king_aoeufree02:10
king_aoeuand you don't use it, just because it's not linuxy enough?02:11
king_aoeuyou start a whole new os, just for thta?02:11
king_aoeuthere must be something else02:11
wmarone_king_aoeu: governance. Android goes where google wants it to02:11
king_aoeui can't believe it's just it02:11
king_aoeucan't you fork google?02:11
wmarone_nope02:11
king_aoeuand start from there?02:11
king_aoeuwhy?02:11
king_aoeuisn't open source?02:12
berndhsfork google ?02:12
wmarone_oh I could try and maintain a divergent fork02:12
wmarone_but ultimately I would not be able to keep pace with google's forward progress02:12
gotclueking_aoeu: that is the fork of android http://replicant.us/02:13
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king_aoeudoesn't replicant.us kill the purpose of mer?02:14
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wmarone_no, because it's only part of the equation02:16
gotclueking_aoeu: mer doesn't have a real purpose, but I understand that java/dalvik (non c/c++) is somewhat more appeling.02:16
wmarone_that and replicant.us will go where google leads02:16
wmarone_gotclue: if you hate mer so much, I am curious as to why you are here02:17
gotcluelack of sleep02:17
berndhswell, on nemo I can ssh into all my sites with ipv6, I android I can't, nevermind wp702:17
Jucato"mer doesn't have a real purpose" huh what?02:17
king_aoeuwmarone_: replicant.us doesn't "have" to go in the same direction has google...02:18
king_aoeuJucato: what's the purpose of mer?02:18
wmarone_no, but if they don't then they'll break compatibility and have to assume more and more development work themselves02:18
king_aoeuand is mer in a better position?02:19
Jucatohttp://www.merproject.org/02:19
wmarone_mer is not dependent on a single vendor02:19
king_aoeuJucato: i read it02:19
wmarone_no one company owns the upstream02:19
king_aoeureplicant.us is not either02:19
wmarone_it is, it depends on google02:19
king_aoeuthey can do whatever than want from there02:19
king_aoeuhow do they depend on google?02:19
wmarone_simple, if google changes dalvik they must adopt the changes02:20
wmarone_same for bionic02:20
king_aoeuso you rely on linux02:20
Jucatotheir aim is just to replace the proprietary parts with free software, but they will still be working on Google's Android codebase02:20
gotclueof reverse bionic/ dalvik02:20
king_aoeuinstead of google, right?02:21
wmarone_king_aoeu: linux is not owned by any one vendor02:21
king_aoeugoogle is not a vendor02:21
wmarone_yes they are02:21
king_aoeuok, they are02:21
wmarone_I cannot contribute to Android or influence its direction unless I am a member of the OHA02:21
wmarone_I can effect the linux kernel, individually if I choose to try02:22
king_aoeuif linux changes, mer changes too, right?02:22
king_aoeuyou use the linux kernel, or something else?02:22
king_aoeudo you use your own version of it?02:22
Jucatothere's a big difference02:22
king_aoeuwhich one?02:22
Jucatolinux kernel development is open, android isn't02:22
Jucatoandroid is "open source" in the most minimal requirement of "open source", but not its development02:23
king_aoeuno, but i mean technically02:23
Jucatoit's what is called a "code dump"02:23
king_aoeuyou will be able to update mer to linux 3.1?02:23
berndhslinux kernels are condigured for more or less specific target machines02:23
berndhsmore specific for phones, less specific for desktops02:23
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king_aoeuso you had to make your own kernel02:23
king_aoeucustom02:23
Jucato...02:23
king_aoeuno?02:23
berndhsso the "linux" you run on an n900 is not the same "linux" you run on a supercomputer02:24
gotcluethey want to say, they can't use newer kernel because they can't port the driver.02:24
berndhsread up a little on how to build a linux kernel, just look at what you can configure02:24
Jucatothe linux you run on one distro is not exactly 100% the same linux you use on another distro02:24
Jucatothey might have distinct configurations/modules/patches02:24
wmarone_gotclue: that's a plague that affects pretty much all hardware running linux today :/02:25
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berndhsyou don't _want_ the same kernel on a single core 32 bit phone and a 2048 core supercomputer02:25
king_aoeui'm just asking if it would be simpler to take dalvik, use it, and when google change direction (and you don't want to), you just use the last good version of dalvik and update it as you want02:25
king_aoeuyou would have something functional02:26
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king_aoeualready02:26
king_aoeuin fact, mer and android are pretty much the same thing02:26
king_aoeumanufacturers can just get android ,customize it and that's it02:27
berndhsnot on a new device where android hasnt run before02:27
Jucato...02:27
king_aoeui don't see how it's simpler to start from scratch (mer) than start from android02:27
gotcluemer not on a device that has run android before ;-)02:27
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king_aoeuso now you want an os that doesn't run on android  devices?02:28
king_aoeunice02:28
king_aoeuso an os that doesn't exist and has no device for it02:28
Jucato(mer isn't even a start from scratch)02:28
king_aoeugood idea02:28
Jucato?02:28
king_aoeumore from scratch than android02:28
berndhsyou don't follow what i'm writing, so nevermind02:28
Jucatonot really02:28
wmarone_errr02:28
wmarone_no, android is seriously from scratch02:28
king_aoeui follow it...02:28
berndhsno, you misunderstand parts of it02:29
king_aoeuyour goal here is what?02:29
wmarone_with a few "Linux" trappings to make it appealing to hardware OEMs02:29
king_aoeuyou need a mobile os?02:29
Jucatodepends on what you consider an "os"02:29
king_aoeuyou build mer so other can build os using it, right?02:29
berndhsfrom mer, I want an OS base without a specific UX02:29
Jucatoif you consider a full blown stack like Android an OS, complete with UX, policies, etc., the no, mer is not for a "mobile os"02:30
berndhsan OS base that lets me change the UX02:30
Jucatomer is a *core* on which someone would build a "mobile os"02:30
berndhsso I don't want android or harmattan, certainly not wp702:30
king_aoeuwhy would someone want to take mer, and build an os with it?02:30
berndhsbecause that was mer is for02:30
king_aoeuno, who want to do that?02:31
berndhsit is a basis to make your own02:31
berndhswho ? independent manufacturers02:31
king_aoeuyes, but why would i make my own?02:31
berndhscompanies who want to be independent of google or microsoft02:31
king_aoeuwhy would they want that?02:31
berndhsto make money the way they see fit02:32
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Jucatoopen source projects who want to have the flexibility of creating their own UX instead of reusing something like Android or Harmattan02:32
king_aoeuas a manufacturer, i don't see why i should build my own os, when i can just use Android02:32
Jucatoyou're a manufacturer?02:32
king_aoeuno02:32
berndhsdifferent manufacturers run their businesses differently02:32
Jucatothen how do you know what a manufacturer would think?02:32
king_aoeuare you a manufacturer?02:32
berndhssome prefer to align themselves with google, some with microsoft, some prefer different ways02:33
Jucatono. and I never presumed I would know. and I never answered anything from the POV of a manufacturer.02:33
king_aoeubut if people of mer think it's good for manufacturer, what make them think so?02:33
berndhsand lets not forget that this is a very big market, several billion end users02:34
king_aoeuhow often do people want to create their own os?02:34
gotcluewhy would I develop for mer if only some freaky manufactor benefits from it?02:34
wmarone_gotclue: done right, you aren't limited to mer02:35
king_aoeualso, why do you exist, there's tizen02:35
berndhsgotclue: you personally don't want to develop for mer i'm fairly sure02:35
berndhsgotclue: but then you probably don't want to develop for anyone :)02:35
wmarone_king_aoeu: mer will eventually base itself off Tizen, is the plan as I understand it02:35
king_aoeuyou mean merge it?02:35
king_aoeui don't see why both should exist02:36
king_aoeuwhy they use you?02:36
king_aoeuis tizen ui dependant?02:36
wmarone_there's a better explanation of the plan out there, I don't recall at the moment02:36
wmarone_sadly, we don't know much about tizen atm02:36
wmarone_so things can still change02:36
Jucato(just because you don't see why both should exist doesn't mean they should not exist. fortunately)02:36
Jucato(fortunately mer is an open source project that is free to steer its own ship)02:37
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king_aoeupeople that contribute to Mer everyday02:38
king_aoeuwhy do they do that02:38
king_aoeuthat motivates them?02:38
king_aoeuwhat company would develop application for Mer02:38
king_aoeuwhat user would want a Mer device?02:38
gotcluebecause forking tizen is to much work. you depend on some vendor that make up-down decisions. thats only opensource at a bare minimum... lol02:38
wmarone_as was said before, we know nothing about how Tizen will be governed02:39
gotclueyeah, just tought it was funny while looking at the comments about replicant.us.02:40
king_aoeuI'm a company that offer a service02:41
king_aoeupeople use my service02:41
king_aoeui made an android and an iOS app02:41
king_aoeuwhy would i make a Mer app02:41
king_aoeuthere's no reason for it02:41
berndhssure there is02:41
king_aoeuso people using Mer won't have any official app02:41
king_aoeuand they will be sad02:41
Jucatoyou dont' even make a mer app02:41
king_aoeuyou make a what app?02:42
Jucatoargh why am I even replying02:42
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king_aoeuyou make an app for the os that uses Mer? it's even worse02:42
berndhswhy ?02:42
KaziKluBey_N900come on you nerds,give it some time. haven't you learned that since the maemoera02:42
king_aoeuwhy what?02:42
berndhswhats bad about it, as long as you make money on the deal, assuming you are commercial02:43
king_aoeuomg02:43
Jucato(you don't make an app for the linux kernel)02:43
king_aoeuthere won't be a facebook app on Mer (or the os made with it) ?02:43
berndhssure there will be, someone will make it02:44
KaziKluBey_N900kavopus is ther already02:44
KaziKluBey_N900kasvopus02:44
king_aoeusome services don't have an api02:44
berndhsand there will be google+ apps and twitter apps and the rest02:44
king_aoeusome services require the manufacturer to do the app02:45
king_aoeuno02:45
berndhssure02:45
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king_aoeuyou can't  make a complete facebook app, it wont have all the features of the real one02:45
berndhsgoogle+ has an api, haven't looked at it, but its there02:45
king_aoeui'm making Google+ for WP702:45
king_aoeuand the api is very limited02:45
berndhsok let us know how it turns out02:46
king_aoeuyou won't have the functionalities of the real app02:46
berndhsthen you're probably doing it wrong :)02:46
wmarone_"apps" in place of functional mobile websites is broken anyway02:46
king_aoeuit's in standby right now, the api is too limited and i reached the limit02:46
berndhsking_aoeu: you're talking hypothetical, right?02:46
king_aoeuwmarone_: why don't you work on fixing it then?02:47
king_aoeuberndhs: well, mer is hypothetical, so yes02:47
wmarone_king_aoeu: because I don't manage the websites in question02:47
berndhsking_aoeu: no your google+ app is the hypothecal case02:47
king_aoeubut if it ever works out, you will need a facebook app, and it wont have the same features as the real ones, what will you do then?02:47
king_aoeuberndhs: i'm actually building a google+ app for WP702:48
king_aoeuyou want screenshots?02:48
berndhsi thought you were not much of a coder02:48
king_aoeui'm a programmer02:48
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berndhsah02:48
berndhswell, if the API for wp7 is not good, one more reason to avoid wp7 :)02:49
gotclueand I.... I don't even have a smartphone. howzdat?02:49
KaziKluBey_N900king: you know qt and stuff?02:49
king_aoeuit's the Google+ api which isn't good02:50
king_aoeunot the WP7 api02:50
berndhswhat's missing? I havent looked at it02:50
king_aoeui don't know qt and stuff02:50
gotclueisn't google+ still beta?02:50
berndhsall of googles things are beta02:50
king_aoeui know python, php, silverlight/c#/xaml/wpf/asp.net, haskel, etc...l02:50
king_aoeuit's beta yes02:51
king_aoeubut its not the point02:51
KaziKluBey_N900you should look into it.02:51
king_aoeuthe point is that many company have no api and have to make the app, a third party just can't02:51
wmarone_king_aoeu: which is a problem with the companies, not the platform02:51
king_aoeuif they don't make app for mer, what will you do?02:51
KaziKluBey_N900and port that g+ app to nemo :)02:52
king_aoeuok, but we don't live in a perfect world02:52
king_aoeui won't port it on nemo, sorry02:52
king_aoeumobile dev is so hard02:52
berndhsyou should look at Qt, it will work fine on wp7 too02:52
king_aoeuporting is a pain02:52
king_aoeulol no02:52
king_aoeuqt doesn't work on wp7 u fool02:52
berndhsyes it will02:52
king_aoeuno it wont02:52
KaziKluBey_N900listen to berndhs,he's good with words02:53
berndhswho will stop them ?02:53
king_aoeustop who?02:53
king_aoeuwhy would they do it?02:53
berndhsthe folks who want to make qt work on wp702:53
king_aoeuthey already have silverlight, and WinRT02:53
berndhsqt works on the rest of the windows platforms02:53
king_aoeugood luck with that, and why would anyone be retarded enough to want to use qt on windows phone 7?02:53
king_aoeuwp7 is not like the rest of windows...02:54
gotclueking_aoeu: make it a webapp. connect it a server you set up, that connects to google+. make a shitload of money.02:54
king_aoeuwe're no longer in the windows mobile ero02:54
king_aoeuera*02:54
berndhsbecause they already have applications working on other platforms on qt02:54
king_aoeugoogle+ has a webapp already...02:54
berndhssure thats another way, you will have webapps on mer-based systems too02:54
king_aoeuberndhs: people who port apps that way are retarded and don't know anything about UX/UI02:55
berndhsmany ways to do things02:55
gotclueyeah, but connecting to your server means service you can get money for.02:55
* KaziKluBey_N900 sssccchhh...i'm trying to get some sleep02:55
king_aoeui would literally punch anyone i meet who try to port a qt app to wp7, that would be aweful02:55
king_aoeunobody would use it either02:55
berndhsend users don't know what an app is written in, and they don't care02:55
king_aoeuyes but qt is for ui02:56
king_aoeuand they'll realize it's qt02:56
berndhsend users want to post their pics, watch their movies, chat with their friends02:56
king_aoeuthey won't be able on mer02:56
berndhsyou're not very informed about qt I think02:56
king_aoeu?02:56
king_aoeuok, try to make a panorama app is qt02:56
king_aoeugo02:57
king_aoeui challenge you02:57
berndhsor maybe you swallowed the microsoft spin as the complete truth02:57
king_aoeuwhat do you mean?02:57
gotcluealso qt stuff on wp7 only takes extra ram and flash, the users won't like that.02:57
berndhsI mean that microsoft, like most companies, tells you things that are not entirely true02:58
* KaziKluBey_N900 ouch,a new herd is forming..02:58
berndhsfor marketing purposes02:58
king_aoeusince you're not a designer, maybe it's not important to you to have apps that integrate with the rest of the ui03:00
king_aoeubut it's very important03:00
king_aoeuqt would'nt make that possible03:00
berndhswell I'm making my own UX, so I don't give a rat's ass about wp7 integration :)03:00
king_aoeuyou must use wp7 ux03:01
berndhsunless of course MS wants to fund my efforts, then we can talk03:01
king_aoeualso, qt to wp7 is in theory possilbe03:01
berndhsme personally, no I don't ahve to use any wp703:01
berndhsdont' need it, don't want to use those devices03:02
KaziKluBey_N900this is the thing im talking about. people get obsessed with brands.iP,wp lures people int their realm.03:02
gotclueOMG wp7 eats peaopl03:02
king_aoeuyou have no sense of design03:02
berndhswp7 devices have the same direction and purpose as most others, so they are not appropriate for my purpose03:03
berndhshas nothing to do with sense of design03:03
berndhsking_aoeu: your story changes too often in the same day :)03:03
gotcluewhy don't you guys just use fluxbox? lol03:04
king_aoeulook, unless we find a way to make app work on any os (no more native app), we will continue to make native app. This mean that the more mobile os there are, the more painful it will be to build/port all these apps to all those platforms. Since apps are what  make a phone useful, the more mobile os, the less happy customers are03:04
king_aoeuwe should try to converge mobile os, so there are the less of them possible (1 would be nice), and that's it03:05
berndhsthere are billions of end users03:05
wmarone_king_aoeu: I see you would be happy as a dictator03:05
king_aoeubut you see my point right?03:05
berndhsthey will support many different manufactuerers03:05
berndhsking_aoeu: I see your point, but it is wrong03:06
berndhsthere is lots of space, lots of opportunity03:06
berndhsyour point assumes that the market is small and will only support a few providers03:06
gotclueberndhs: you only want your (mabye) ux to sell. talk about few providers.03:08
berndhsno I want many UXs to sell03:08
berndhsI jsut want to have mine for me and people with similar preferences, if that ends up being a decent market, then fine03:09
berndhsI'm not interested in covering every taste03:09
gotclueyou mean only a gui that let's you start/ stop one app XYZ.03:10
berndhsno03:10
gotclueon gui per app?03:10
berndhsmany apps running at the same time03:10
berndhshow much you see depends on display size03:11
KaziKluBey_N900promise to play nice while i'm gone kids. g'nite!03:11
berndhswhat you see per app depends on the app03:11
berndhsgood night KaziKluBey_N90003:11
gotclue5" 800x480 three big icons... success!03:11
berndhsgotclue: not sure what that means03:11
* KaziKluBey_N900 is only sleeping...03:12
king_aoeuhere's an idea03:13
king_aoeuwhy don't you work on a platform that make it possible for people to build one app that would work on any os?03:13
wmarone_qt can do that ;)03:13
king_aoeuwhy isn't widely used by all os?03:14
wmarone_because Microsoft/Apple/Google don't want to03:14
berndhsqt apps work on android, mer, probably tizen, on desktop linux, mac, windows03:14
berndhsmicrosoft is trying to sell its own software, shocking as that may be :)03:15
gotcluei mean... i am going to get sleepy. I might doing a mer and start my own mobile os tomorrow. as gui... yeah, damn I'll use wxwidgets!03:16
king_aoeuberndhs: i don't see your point....03:16
king_aoeudoes qt stop them from selling their software? in fact it would make their software work in any os (no port required), and allow all qt apps to work on wp703:17
berndhsno qt doesn't make anyone stop selling something else03:18
berndhsnobody has to use qt if they don't want to03:18
gotcluelike the users don't want03:18
berndhsyou should study the concept of "choice" :)03:18
gotcluebecause its slow03:19
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wmarone_gotclue: please, now you're just spouting BS03:19
berndhsgotclue: you're slow :)03:19
gotclueyeah. I know. qt isn't bad, but kde and plasma are.03:20
king_aoeuberndhs: choice is the most overrated thing ever03:20
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berndhsking_aoeu: maybe you haven't had any03:20
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king_aoeuberndhs: why would someone not support a standard? why woudl a decide to no longer undestand english? so that i don't understand all the work that is done in english (so that most people can read it) ?03:21
wmarone_hey look, his argument has come full circle03:21
king_aoeuit's retarded03:21
berndhsI support many standarts and even define my own standards, it's great03:22
king_aoeuberndhs: just watch  this03:22
king_aoeuhttp://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html03:22
king_aoeuit's one of the best video03:22
king_aoeuit's about choice03:22
king_aoeudon't you think choice opposes standard in many cases?03:22
berndhsand now I chose to watch a movie on my PS3, and maybe read an ebook using _my_ ebook reader app on my n95003:22
gotclueI choose you pikatchu!03:23
berndhsso you go watch schwarts03:23
berndhsI watch sean connery :)03:23
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king_aoeuthis guy is retarded03:23
wmarone_king_aoeu: no, he's just tired of arguing in circles with you03:24
king_aoeuat least he's happy03:24
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* KaziKluBey_N900 ...zzzZZZzzz...03:28
gotcluegood. i am sleepy enough. I think, I'll dream about forking Tizen, mix it with replicant and sell it to apple ;)03:32
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king_aoeuhe will get nightmares03:34
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iekkumorning06:00
dm8tbrmoaning06:01
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o Stskeeps06:05
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o Stskeeps06:05
*** Stskeeps sets mode: +b king_aoeu!*@*06:05
*** Stskeeps sets mode: +b *!*@*92.196.92.18406:07
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o Stskeeps06:07
Stskeepsman, troll town last night06:07
iekkumissed that06:08
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*** ChanServ sets mode: +o Stskeeps06:12
*** Stskeeps changes topic to "Mer is back! - http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2011-October/484215.html - http://www.merproject.org | Wiki: http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/ | Contribution to packages: http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Contribution | Building against Mer in COBS: http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Building_against_Mer_in_COBS | This channel is logged, http://mer.bfst.de/logs | Don't be a poisonous"06:12
Stskeepshmm06:12
Stskeeps:P06:12
*** Stskeeps changes topic to "Mer is back! - http://bit.ly/qqX2jp - http://www.merproject.org | Wiki: http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/ | Contribution to packages: http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Contribution | Building against Mer in COBS: http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Building_against_Mer_in_COBS | This channel is logged, http://mer.bfst.de/logs | Don't be a poisonous person: http://oreil.ly/tdiQ5x"06:13
iekkuhaha06:13
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timoph:)06:15
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ighean810 builds ready? ;D06:45
Stskeepsighea: sure, cxl000's been working on it06:46
igheanice06:46
Stskeepshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbE4Ply5Cbs06:46
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vgrademorning07:08
Stskeepsmorn vgrade07:09
vgradehe got kicked from plasma, very funny07:10
Stskeepssome people just need to know basics of interacting with a project07:11
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vgradewent in there, said your project sucks07:13
Stskeepsyeah, hrm07:13
Stskeepsthat's just bad social skills07:13
av500logs?07:13
vgrade[22:35] <king_aoeu> the "window" paradigm is dead and you should not use it07:16
vgrade[22:35] <king_aoeu> the ui looks cheesy as hell07:16
vgrade[22:36] <king_aoeu> i've seen 0 innovation in any of the screenshots07:16
Stskeepsyeah.. sigh :P07:17
av500I have to admit, the 1st time I saw this: http://vizzzion.org/images/blog/active-web-activity.png  I thought this: http://schinnell.org/pics/figure4w311.jpg07:19
av500but then, Im not on #active :)07:19
Stskeepsit's retro times anyway07:20
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* Stskeeps kicks off next mer release build07:37
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Stskeepsmorn fw19007:44
fw190morn07:44
fw190you are quick ;)07:44
fw190I saw a new image of nemo07:44
fw190seems tahta the wrok is going forward07:44
Stskeepsyes, quite07:45
fw190the CSSU team is moving forward also so may trusty old N900 has some future ;)07:45
Stskeepsyep07:46
fw190and Tizen looks R.I.P. ;007:46
Stskeepsi trust they're just really busy codin07:48
Stskeepsg07:48
fw190some how I don't. I trusted Nokia, the MeeGo and now I'm sceptic07:49
Stskeepsgood thing we're alive then and kicking :P07:49
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fw190yep Mer is still there. Funny thing that indyviduals can gather and push something that big companies can't07:55
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fw190Stskeeps: it's time to celebrate . Tiil next time07:58
Termanamorning07:58
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Stskeepsmorn Termana07:59
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veskuhI filed bug numer #1 http://bugs.merproject.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108:20
Stskeepshehe08:22
Stskeepsnot sure if we'll be able to keep the db, we plan to add LDAP auth08:22
w00tugh08:22
w00t:P08:22
w00twhen's that happening?08:22
alteregolbt said next week I think he's gonna set it up08:22
alteregoThen we'll need to integrate with wiki and bugzilla.08:22
Stskeepsit's on lbt's list, he is first setting up the new VM physical host so08:23
alteregoWe have meego.com config examples for how that works so shouldn't be _too_ difficult.08:23
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cxl000        ighea http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptation/N8x008:30
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dm8tbrhttp://images.formeego.org/n810/ has been created with access for cxl000 and the 'n900' group09:00
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lbtmorning - yep, I got a fair way with the VM and phost deployment last night09:06
lbtOne VM is running - shame there's no network or console though :)09:07
Stskeepsdetails, details09:07
lbt*g* the console is the main reason I prefer xen09:07
lbt(there's that little in it)09:08
Stskeepsscreen + kvm? ;)09:08
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dm8tbrlxc also has simulated consoles :)09:09
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Stskeepsmdfe_: heads up, in next mer release 4.8.0 rc1 comes09:39
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mdfe_:909:40
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mdfe_Stskeeps: hi, any idea whats going wrong? http://pastebin.com/K3jcsUzh09:54
Stskeepsmdfe_: ah.. sec09:54
mdfe_packages-git/mappingscache.xml is empty09:55
Stskeepsecho '<mappings />' > packages-git/mappingscache.xml09:55
Stskeepssomething went wrong in ordering it seems09:56
mdfe_there are also old monster.tspre.org urls inside the script09:56
Stskeepshmm09:57
Stskeepsahh09:57
mdfe_the new urls are working too09:57
Stskeepsyou're using the old one09:57
Stskeeps2. git clone http://monster.tspre.org:8080/p/mer/release-tools09:57
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mdfe_no09:58
Stskeepsyes, you are, you're using the gitorious one :P09:58
Stskeepswhich is wrong09:58
mdfe_ git clone https://git.gitorious.org/merproject/release-tools.git09:58
mdfe_this the one I use09:58
mdfe_ok09:58
Stskeepsthat's old09:58
mdfe_thx09:58
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mdfe_Stskeeps: git clone http://monster.tspre.org:8080/p/mer/release-tools --> fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly10:04
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Stskeepsyeah, it does that at times, try again?10:04
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mdfe_hm, tried it 6 or 7 times10:05
Stskeepsok, do you have a gerrit account with ssh keys set up?10:07
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mdfe_Stskeeps: no I do not have a gerrit account10:11
Stskeepsok, lemme just restart gerrit,10:12
Stskeepslbt: doesn't KVM have a graphical console too?10:13
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Stskeepsmdfe_: try now10:15
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Stskeepslbt: btw, will you bash me over the head if i for fun tried to import a lot of fedora source package and test build them against Mer?10:16
Stskeepsinto COBS10:16
mdfe_Stskeeps: :910:18
mdfe_looks good10:18
Stskeepsmdfe_: better now?10:18
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mdfe_yepp10:22
mdfe_:)10:22
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lbtStskeeps: fedora vs suse?10:27
lbtkvm does have graphical console - it's painful, slow and has no scrollback :)10:28
Stskeepspoint10:28
Stskeepsbut i have seen kvm with serial console or whatever too i guess10:28
lbtyeah - I had it working once10:28
lbt-nographic10:29
Stskeepslbt: well, i'd like to test how close our packaging standards are to fedora10:29
lbtI certainly have no bias against either10:29
Stskeeps:nod:10:29
Stskeepsopensuse packaging is slightly different than mer/meego's so10:29
Stskeepsas far as i can tell10:29
lbtmmm10:29
lbtfedora have sane changelogs don't they :)10:30
* lbt votes fedora10:30
Stskeepsie, higher liklihood of failure10:30
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Stskeepsmatrixx: do you happen to be graphically and QML inclined?10:45
matrixxStskeeps: not so graphically, more QML:cally10:47
Stskeepsmatrixx: reason i'm asking is because we need someone to make a small QML for initial Mer bringups on devices, ie, showing Mer logo, perhaps some animation, perhaps some touch feedback10:47
Stskeepsmatrixx: right now we just have qmlviewer startup animation but it doesn't show much/help test :)10:48
matrixxStskeeps: I can start working on such10:48
Stskeepsthat'd be cool :)10:48
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Stskeepswiki.maemo.org/Mer/Artwork has old SVGs and such10:49
matrixxStskeeps: I'm waiting to get my N9 that I can leave N950 for mer work10:49
Stskeepsbonus points for anything involving the ocean or fish10:49
matrixxlet's see what we can come up :)10:50
matrixxanimating fishes perhaps? :D10:50
Stskeepshehe10:50
dm8tbrfishtank? \o/10:51
Stskeepshttp://wiki.maemo.org/Image:Mer_Wazd_Wallpaper_Nokian_Ship.jpg is still funny all these years after..10:51
* dm8tbr votes for animated fishtank background10:51
dm8tbrhrhr, subtle :D10:51
matrixx:D10:52
Termanalol10:52
xruxaGood one10:52
lbtyay ... proper serial console on kvm10:56
Stskeepswoo10:57
lbtit makes finding network errors sane10:57
lbt:Q10:57
lbt(I am not using vi by choice ... just in case you wondered)10:58
Stskeepsheh10:58
Stskeepsandre__: not too friendly advertising for other projects in a newly started project10:59
Stskeepsit creates a bad atmosphere :P10:59
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lauriHey guys :P11:01
Stskeepslo lauri11:02
lauriStskeeps: that's a familiar nickname :P11:02
Stskeepsi'm everywhere11:02
lauri:D11:02
andre__Stskeeps, it was just too tempting to play the poisonous guy.11:03
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andre__plus if people want to do something *now* instead of waiting for vaporware it's the right thing to do. So I don't feel bad about it.11:04
Stskeepsandre__: :nod: just letting you know my opinion11:04
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Stskeepsandre__: either way, i've spent some setting up bugs.merproject.org (see enter bug)11:05
andre__they can always kick me off the mailing list if it's an issue. I wouldn't care, it's dead anyway :)11:05
andre__yay11:05
andre__I'll review the draft for a bugzilla structure this weekend11:05
andre__http://bugs.merproject.org/ is a 503 right now11:06
Stskeepsseems so indeed11:07
Stskeepswe're still setting it up11:07
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Stskeepslbt: OBS is just too damn fat11:25
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lbtyou could slim it down until you have pbuilder or any of the other "only do our own builds" systems :)11:26
* lbt forgives OBS a lot - and yes it is too fat11:27
lbtStskeeps: what was it in particular?11:28
Stskeepswhat triggered me thinking it's too fat? that it needs too many resources constantly compared to what it realistically ought to :P11:29
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* lbt looks at the build demands of Qt11:30
Stskeepsit's better in qt511:30
Stskeeps:P11:30
lbtso do you mean the chroot part?11:31
Stskeepsno, the rest, api, scheduler, webui11:31
lbtor more the srcsrver/scheduler/dispatcher/api11:31
lbtyeah11:31
lbtwell, ruby sucks in terms of memory - but hey, it could be java11:32
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kimjuso far all the projects that I've had to do with ruby have ended up containing more code as patches to ruby's stdlib than in the main application itself.. still, I kind of like it as a language.11:34
lbtit's annoyingly appealling11:36
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SageBostik: ping11:41
BostikSage: oi?11:42
SageBostik: you packaging qt5 for Mer? What is the status of that?11:42
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F__i__Lhello11:42
BostikSage: it builds, but it doesn't really work yet11:43
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SageBostik: you have the packages in OBS somewhere available?11:43
Bostikthe beauty of it all is that I needed to do zero modifications to the specs and helpers to enable Mer builds - just added an OBS target and that's it11:43
Bostikhttp://gitorious.org/modular-qt-specwork/modular-qt-specs11:43
Bostikthere11:43
Bostikpushed qtmultimedia packaging fixes there less than 10min ago11:44
BostikI think Stskeeps has been updating the builds with those files :)11:44
Stskeepsyeah, but i don't have time for it right now :P11:44
Stskeepsquite easy to get going though11:45
Bostikqtquick3d is broken for all builds outside local OSX, and qttools has been broken in so many ways it's not even funny11:48
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Sageok. Good to know.11:53
slaineIt's great to see so much activity around here11:53
slainethanks everyone11:53
Sagelbt: workers are disappearing again11:54
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lbtbetter :)11:57
Stskeepshow's the phost doing?12:00
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Stskeepslbt: trying an experiment with disabling webui from lighttpd and seeing how much memory that saves/load..12:01
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lbtapache/passenger seems better too FWIW12:01
Stskeepsobs 2.3?12:02
lbtdynamic across api/webui too12:02
lbtyes12:02
lbtmemcached works too12:02
Stskeepsok12:02
Stskeepsi should probably upgrade at some point12:02
lbtwhich means better response and less load12:03
Stskeepshow big difficulty did you have upgrading?12:03
lbtnot much12:03
lbtmmm was looking for notes12:04
lbtit took a while though12:04
lbthttp://pastie.org/279796012:05
Stskeepsok12:05
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Stskeepshttp://fosdem.org/2012/devrooms_for_201213:00
Stskeeps^ Open Mobile Linux13:00
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w00tscary13:01
Stskeepswill be a good meeting place for Mer-minded people13:02
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slaine"World of GNUstep"13:02
slainewow13:02
slainethat's still going ?13:02
Stskeepsyeah..13:02
Stskeeps:P13:02
* Stskeeps plays with meego 1.1 for MIPS13:03
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Termanaslaine, sounds almost like a dance13:14
TermanaDO THE GNUSTEP BABY WOOO13:14
slainelol13:14
slaineI just learned the GNUstep for my wedding dance13:14
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Stskeepsgod, i forgot how fucking slow native qemu-arm builds are13:16
Stskeepser, qemu13:16
Stskeepslbt: can webui be run on a seperate machine?13:20
X-FadeStskeeps: yes.13:22
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Stskeepsok13:22
X-FadeStskeeps: check passenger-status13:22
X-FadeStskeeps: You see that they are 2 separate applications13:22
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slaineanyone here learned much about pulseaudio ?14:43
slainenot directly mer related but hoped I might get some help14:44
slainepulseaudio seems to launch gconf-helper14:46
slainebut there's a massive lag between pulseaudio starting and gconf-helper14:47
slainelike 20 seconds or something14:47
Stskeepsthat does seem rather high14:48
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slainesomething is clearly blocking, I just need to track down what14:49
slainethis is on my customized fedora build14:49
Stskeepsdbus launch maybe14:49
slaineYeah, I wondered that, but dbus seems to be running ok prior to this bit14:50
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Stskeepslbt: starting to have tamed the kvm beast?16:06
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* dm8tbr snickers16:46
dm8tbr16:43:40< king_aoeu> can anyone help me to get unbanned from #mer?16:46
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aoeucan i talk to the person that banned king_aoeu please?16:47
_av500_oh, you are not kind any moreƟ16:50
_av500_?16:50
_av500_king :)16:50
_av500_I guess the peasants revolted16:50
berndhswell, it happens16:51
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pdanekhttp://mer.bfst.de/logs/%23mer/%23mer.2011-11-11.log.html16:52
pdanekstarting 7:13am16:52
pdanekmaybe this was reason for ban16:52
lbtStskeeps: yep - been out with Denise - back now...16:53
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aoeubeside saying someone was retarded, i didn't do anything wrong16:55
Stskeepsaoeu: your behaviour wasn't appropiate and i think you might benefit from reading this article to understand where you went wrong, http://oreil.ly/tdiQ5x16:55
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aoeuthanks for the tip, i'm reading it right now16:56
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lbtStskeeps: that reminds me - can I get op for occasions such as that16:56
Stskeepslbt: you have it already AFAIK16:57
Stskeepslbt: since two years ago16:57
lbtI may just need training then :)16:57
Stskeeps /chanserv op #mer16:57
Stskeeps:P16:57
Stskeepsor msg chanserv works too16:57
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o lbt16:57
lbthmm - OK, I guess I don't understand the konversation UI :D16:58
_av500_lbt: you issue the command16:58
_av500_no ui needed16:58
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lbtyeah I'm training myself to use these new-fangled guis :)16:59
*** lbt sets mode: -o lbt16:59
* Stskeeps is trying to build mer MIPS packages16:59
* lbt is avoiding doing kvm....17:00
lbtbut it beckons me...17:00
Stskeepsanything i can help with?17:01
aoeu"For instance, people in the community can ask endless questions or focus on perfection (in a design or feature set) and bogart the attention of developers." i think describes me perfectly17:01
aoeubut i think it's legitimate to ask you if this project is really going in the right direction17:03
Stskeepsaoeu: right, but in practice it's best to combine it with both contribution and talk, -- talk is cheap, show me the code17:03
_av500_aoeu: you might also consider taking a few courses: http://trolluniversity.com/17:03
aoeui'm not there to annoy you for the sake of it, i only want to bring my opinion, i don't think it's worth nothing17:04
_av500_aoeu: 7h of it is too much17:04
aoeuhow is it to much? it only shows my interest17:04
Stskeepsaoeu: judging by the interest in our work, i think we're on a good path17:04
_av500_aoeu: it is still too much17:04
_av500_you made your point17:04
lbtStskeeps: not just yet - I'll let you know as soon as we have something17:05
lbtfirst an admin VM, then ldap17:05
lbtI'm using a private bridge as a mgmt VLAN17:05
Stskeepslbt: makes sense17:05
lbtso we can bridge that on the phosts using openvpn or something similar17:05
aoeubut i'm still not conviced that your project is bringing anything to us, and i want to to convince me of that17:06
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lbtaoeu: sorry, we're not really that interested in convincing you.17:06
Stskeepsaoeu: i can spend hours upon hours convincing you but honestly, it's better to be convinced at what we have17:06
lbtI asked you nicely last night to take the OT elsewhere17:06
aoeui think that convincing people to use your product is fondamental17:07
_av500_aoeu: take it or leave it or join and help17:07
lbtthe lack of respect you show causes you to lose credibility17:07
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Stskeepsaoeu: ie, that we have something good that's immediately recognisable -- and well, only way to do that is to create it17:07
Stskeepsread: i could sell you the stars but it doesn't matter if i don't have it, i have to spend time taking us there17:07
Stskeeps:P17:08
aoeui don't want to contribute to a project if i don't agree 100% with it17:08
* _av500_ has a bridge to sell17:08
_av500_aoeu: then take option #217:08
Stskeepsaoeu: there's plenty of open source projects needing help, contribute to those that appeal to you17:09
aoeuit seems like you're only building a mobile os core for other's to use, but who are these other people and why do they need it?17:09
_av500_there we go again17:09
aoeuinstead of looking for project that appeals me perfectly or start my own, i start by looking for project that i think have potential, and change them so they share the same value as i do17:10
_av500_lol17:10
Stskeepsaoeu: i'm going to restrict this conversation for 15 minutes, after that you're free to leave, or stay and contribute17:10
_av500_what is your success rate?17:10
dm8tbrcan we *plonk* now please?17:10
aoeu0%17:10
_av500_lool17:10
aoeustarting a new project is against my values, as it's selfish17:11
_av500_i feel so sorry for you17:11
aoeubut i'm starting to think that most open source project have selfish motivations, so i may have to start my own project :(17:11
* dm8tbr is a shellfish17:11
_av500_you are really stuck between rocks and hard places17:11
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Stskeepsaoeu: so, everyone who has to make a device with reasonably sane functionality will have to lift a burden regarding the OS core - not everyone can afford employing a team of 40 linux hackers17:12
aoeuif i was an open source project, i would love to have aoeu contribute to myself17:12
_av500_Stskeeps: ok, 15minutes are over17:12
_av500_obvious troll is ...17:12
dm8tbraoeu: how selfish of you17:13
aoeupeople with a vision are called trolls nowadays17:13
Stskeepsaoeu: Mer helps by making it possible for people to collaborate on something they otherwise would have to do on their own17:13
_av500_aoeu: if you have visions, go see a doctor17:13
_av500_famous german politician quote17:13
aoeuStskeeps: i agree with this, but i think there's a better way to do this17:14
_av500_aoeu: show us17:14
Stskeepsaoeu: OK, let me hear it in one sentence17:14
aoeufirst, you have to determine if there's a market for it17:16
aoeuyou can't create something, and hope people will use it17:16
Stskeepsi have and there is17:16
Stskeepsi didn't just jump into this blindly17:16
_av500_aoeu: yes, open source can17:17
Stskeepsi've identified practices in many different companies and challenges they've told me about17:17
aoeucompanies don't always do the right thing you know? how many company build their own management system for themselves? too many17:17
* _av500_ fails to see the point17:18
lbtaoeu: what do you think you can contribute?17:18
Stskeepsnext argument - there is a market for sure17:18
aoeumaybe i'm wrong, but Mer seems to make it easier for companies to reinvent the wheel (making another mobile os), and i'm not sure that's a good thing17:18
aoeuwheel*17:18
lbtMer is indeed aimed at companies who want a differentiated product17:19
aoeuwhat justifies something to be different?17:19
lbtbut who want to limit that differentiaton as much as possible17:19
aoeume17:19
lbtinnovation and markets both require differentiation17:19
aoeuthat's not entirely true17:20
lbtyes it is depending on the meaning of require17:20
lbtI use it to mean "they ask for"17:20
lbtnot "they cannot provide without"17:20
aoeuwell, every "new" or "alternative" product must have a strong reason to exist in the first place and if it fails, it should be destroyed17:21
lbtso it should differentiate?17:21
dm8tbrdestroy all humans!17:21
lbtand yet you say : "make it easier for companies to reinvent the wheel (making another mobile os), and i'm not sure that's a good thing"17:21
lbtso on the one hand you support differentiation and on the other you forbid it?17:21
lbthmm17:21
aoeulet's say 2 companies have 2 different way to make the same product, and one is successful, we should destroy the on that fails, not try to support it17:22
lbtdefine successful17:22
* KaziKluBey_N900 deja vu17:22
_av500_aoeu: like apple setting out to destroy android :)17:22
lbt"makes most money".... "benefits society the most"17:22
Stskeepsaoeu: 15 minutes are almost up, any finishing words?17:22
aoeuor converging17:22
aoeui don't think success is exclusive17:22
lbtStskeeps: can I practice?17:22
_av500_go17:22
vgrade:)17:22
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o lbt17:23
Stskeepswe all have things to work on so we have to move on17:23
aoeuanyway, don't say i did not warn you17:23
aoeui'm full of advices17:23
aoeubut you don't seem to be taking me seriously17:23
_av500_no really?17:23
aoeuso i'll have to leave you work on this17:23
Stskeepslbt: go ahead17:23
*** lbt sets mode: +b *!adb32123@*.173.179.33.3517:23
pdanek:D17:23
pdaneksilence17:24
lbtappropriat regex?17:24
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Stskeepssortof, but you're lacking the kick17:24
lbtOK - kickban then17:24
pdaneksilence will fall17:24
_av500_well, he asked the question that must not be asked...17:24
Stskeepsnow, seriously though: when making a product typically the last thing you want to do is screw around with e2fsprogs, troff and systemd17:25
Stskeeps:P17:25
_av500_Stskeeps: but buildroot does that for me :)17:25
lbtso... what would you have used to ban ... and why?17:25
Stskeepslbt: so, i would have used *!*@ instead as the IP of the user is in the ident17:25
Stskeepsand possibly taking out the /2417:26
Stskeepsnot that it matters much these days, dhcp users fly around quite a lot :P17:26
Stskeeps_av500_: hehe, buildroot does serve a purpose similar-ish to mer yes17:27
lbtOK17:27
dm8tbrI'd actually have quieted him +q17:29
Stskeepsor that17:29
dm8tbrmeans he can't talk but read :)17:29
dm8tbrmuch more fun17:30
Stskeepsthat said, we should really do some rationales on our existence somehow :P17:30
Stskeepseven though it's probably better to actualy have omething that works17:30
KaziKluBey_N900maybe a videocompilation on all devices running mer+ux17:32
_av500_Stskeeps: hopefully on g9 soon17:34
slaineStskeeps: how about "'cause we want to do this, if you don't want to use it or partake then fine"17:34
Stskeepsslaine: also works, i guess17:38
Stskeeps_av500_: looking forward to seeing it17:38
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lbtStskeeps: when back can you check if the gratisdns.dk ns accept notify from 172.31.44.22219:48
Stskeeps.. why would it?19:49
lbtthat's the maemo.org master named19:49
Stskeepsi don't know if it does, but master DNS is set to 80.248.164.191 and it shouldn't get zone updates from anywhere else than the master :P19:50
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lbtOK - I thought ns.formeego.org was handled by the maemo.org NS19:53
lbtwell, it is - that is where the zone files are19:53
lbtand that is 172.31.44.22219:54
Stskeepsthat's slightly confusing19:54
Stskeepsso ns.formeego.org is itself just a slave?19:54
lbtclearly there's an intermediary - I'd not realised19:54
lbtit does look like it19:54
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lbtX-Fade or dm8tbr ping19:54
Stskeepswhat symptoms are you seeing? zone not getting pushed out?19:55
lbtys19:55
Stskeepsok19:55
dm8tbrlbt: yar?19:55
lbtso ... DNS for merproject19:55
lbtns.formeego.org ?19:55
lbtI thought we had root on that - and I thought it was the maemo machine?19:56
dm8tbrI think X-Fade has, yes19:56
lbtOK - I'll check when I see him19:57
Stskeepsns.formeego.org is at logica, like rest of maemo.org machines19:57
lbt*nod*19:57
lbtI'm on 172.31.44.22219:57
lbtmaybe it NATs ?19:57
Stskeeps..19:57
Stskeepsinetnum:        172.16.0.0 - 172.31.255.25519:57
Stskeepsnetname:        IANA-BBLK-RESERVED119:57
Stskeepsdescr:          Class B address space for private internets19:57
Stskeepsdescr:          See http://www.ripe.net/db/rfc1918.html for details19:57
* Stskeeps pokes lbt with RFC191819:57
lbtsigh19:58
* Stskeeps slides a good cider over the table19:58
lbtwho uses the top end19:58
lbt17219:58
lbt172.16 .... :)19:58
* dm8tbr likes to use 172.23/16 for his stuff and for some conspiracy fun ;)19:59
* lbt likes 10.0.0.X .... so easy to remember19:59
dm8tbrtoo popular :)20:00
lbtso many subnets20:00
Stskeepsi use 192.168.98.* as that's the house number i used to live in20:00
Stskeeps:P20:00
lbthehe20:00
lbtaccess.merproject.org has made it out20:00
dm8tbrI guess it's like with machine naming, everybody has their favourite scheme20:01
lbtI can adjust my SSH settings now20:01
lbtI call my admin machines zathras20:01
lbtbut you need to be a Babylon 5 fan to appreciate that one :20:02
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* dm8tbr uses shakespeare characters20:03
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BostikI just go with obscure Norse pantheon20:06
berndhsi name my mobile things after warm islands20:07
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Stskeepsany of you people have MIPS devices you'd like to run Mer on, btw?20:13
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Stskeepsmy new favourite osc flag20:23
Stskeepsosc checkout -l 50000020:23
Stskeepsdon't download files over 500000 bytes20:23
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Stskeepslbt: something wrong with COBS schedulers?20:26
Stskeepshttps://build.pub.meego.com/project/show?project=home%3Astskeeps%3Abranches%3AMer%3Afake%3ACore%3Ai586 and i don't see any other jobs20:26
lbtit's churning away20:28
lbtMaemo.org may be blocking it20:28
Stskeepsok20:29
lbtrepository 'Maemo.org:MeeGo:1.2:Harmattan/standard' is unavailable20:29
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timakimai see dead platforms20:30
lbtfor your proj 5 mins ago building: 1, notready: 1, unfinished: 120:30
Stskeepstimakima: hehe20:31
lbttimakima: careful..... you remember how *that* ended20:31
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timakimasorry, couldn't resist while seeing maemo, meego and harmattan in a same sentence :)20:32
lbtStskeeps: you didn't mention it was Qt20:32
lbtqt has to build on 04 - and 04 had died20:32
lbtbuilding no20:33
lbtw20:33
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Stskeepsok20:34
Stskeepsi'm doing an experiment on debugging information20:34
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Stskeepsfor the logs: standard '-g' in qt is 317.8 mb debuginfo20:37
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*** arcean_ is now known as arcean21:01
Stskeeps'-gstabs', 87.1 mb21:03
Stskeeps'-gdwarf-4', 169mb21:04
Stskeepssomething is screwed up here somewhere21:04
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* lbt starts a deadmans switch before playing with iptables21:17
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vgradenice and quiet tonight22:07
lbtquietly busy22:07
Cyb3r-D00mthis silence is too loud for me :P22:11
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tripzeroStskeeps, ping22:44
* tripzero guesses he's sleeping22:44
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lbtdoes he do that6?22:48
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iekkuhe is lucky one, can sleep23:59

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