| vgrade | evening | 00:20 |
|---|---|---|
| Jucato | morning :) | 00:20 |
| vgrade | hey Jucato, morning | 00:20 |
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| Jucato | how's the linuxcon presesntation preparations going? :) | 00:21 |
| vgrade | I've a plasma build done for the N900 but am on a slow link so can't test it | 00:21 |
| Jucato | oh nice | 00:21 |
| * Jucato drools | 00:21 | |
| vgrade | prep going well I think | 00:22 |
| vgrade | not very used to doing presentations | 00:22 |
| Jucato | heh I know the feeling. my first (and so far only) time was a mess :D | 00:22 |
| Jucato | and it wasn't even for a big/popular event | 00:23 |
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| vgrade | I've done a couple over the years but more comfortable behind the kb. Looking forward to it though | 00:25 |
| vgrade | N900 plasma link if your interested, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5715485/meego-plasma-handset-armv7hl-n900-1.2.90.20111021.1206-mmcblk0p.raw.bz2 | 00:27 |
| Jucato | *very* interested. thanks! :) | 00:27 |
| vgrade | it will probably crash and burn | 00:28 |
| Jucato | hehe as long as it doesn't brick :) | 00:28 |
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| vgrade | i've not managed to brick anything yet apart from a couple of 16gb sdcards, but I think they were duds anyway | 00:29 |
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| vgrade | device adaptation can be hard | 00:30 |
| Jucato | as I feared :( | 00:31 |
| vgrade | I think some of the vega kernal guys blew some speakers a while back | 00:31 |
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| Jucato | something I kinda wanted to learn. I mean, it would be great if we were able to use those not-so-expensive-but-quite-ok Android tablets. | 00:31 |
| vgrade | Jucato, yea the prbelm with the cheap andriod tablets is the kernel support is dire | 00:32 |
| vgrade | I don't know if its because once a kernel is out its source is protected by the OEM as the hardware can be cloned easily but not the sw | 00:34 |
| Jucato | vgrade: yeah. it's still a very distant daydream for me. | 00:37 |
| * Jucato is still debating whether to get a Vega ... | 00:38 | |
| vgrade | I think mdfe has a vega clone he wants to get up | 00:40 |
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| Jucato | vgrade: iirc you mentioned something about Mer/Plasma Active running on the Asus Transformer? | 01:00 |
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| vgrade | mer runnig tablet-ux I think but should do plasma | 01:04 |
| vgrade | lilstevie has it | 01:05 |
| Jucato | ah. thanks | 01:06 |
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| lilstevie | vgrade: well I will as soon as I can get this graphics driver solved | 01:25 |
| lilstevie | vgrade: it is being silly :p | 01:25 |
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| Jucato | lilstevie: so getting a transformer is too much of a gamble for Mer development right now? | 01:39 |
| lilstevie | Jucato: if you don't already have one it is a gamble for anything | 01:48 |
| lilstevie | Jucato: however the plasma UX stuff works, and I already have a full ubuntu installation running | 01:48 |
| lilstevie | it is just the tablet-ux/meego stuff that is being a little tricky | 01:48 |
| Jucato | lilstevie: true. it's a matter or which is more expensive :) | 01:48 |
| lilstevie | no, the if you don't already have one gamble is because of SBK | 01:49 |
| Jucato | SBK? | 01:50 |
| lilstevie | secure boot key | 01:50 |
| Jucato | oh ... | 01:50 |
| lilstevie | newer units have a new SBK | 01:50 |
| Jucato | oh | 01:51 |
| Jucato | is there a way to check before purchasing? like a number? | 01:51 |
| lilstevie | well the key changed somewhere in the B7O range | 01:51 |
| lilstevie | so serial nubers B6O and lower are certainly the old, known one | 01:53 |
| Jucato | ah | 01:54 |
| * Jucato is actually going out to look today ... just look ... | 01:54 | |
| lilstevie | fair enough | 01:54 |
| Jucato | I guess since the ExoPC is a no-go, it will be a choice between a less-powerful but more affordable Vega and a more powerful but expensive Transformer. :) | 01:56 |
| pdanek1 | there is still a powerfull and yet very affordable Amazon Kindle Fire :) | 01:58 |
| Jucato | same problem with the ExoPC.local availability :) | 02:00 |
| pdanek1 | Amazon will start sending Kindle Fire internationally, with no additional tax | 02:01 |
| pdanek1 | means they will cover all additional taxes, if you order from US and you are from Europe, you don't have to pay additional tax, $199 fixed price | 02:02 |
| wmarone | lilstevie: wait wait, ASUS deliberately locked down the boot of the Transformer? | 02:02 |
| Jucato | pdanek1: hackable too? and when will they start doing that (shipping)? | 02:04 |
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| lilstevie | wmarone: yes | 02:07 |
| wmarone | wow | 02:07 |
| lilstevie | but so do a lot of companies | 02:07 |
| wmarone | I wasn't expecting such dickishness from ASUS though | 02:08 |
| lilstevie | heh | 02:09 |
| lilstevie | well they are slightly better than ACER | 02:09 |
| wmarone | what'd acer do? | 02:09 |
| lilstevie | same thing, but each device uses a different key | 02:09 |
| wmarone | oh that's wonderful | 02:10 |
| lilstevie | so if we both had A500's they would both have different SBKs | 02:10 |
| ali1234 | how does that work then? | 02:10 |
| lilstevie | where ASUS only changed it once, in response to it being leaked | 02:10 |
| wmarone | so I take it the secure boot bars the installation of other kernels much like on motorola handsets? | 02:10 |
| lilstevie | ali1234: the boot process gets encrypted on upload | 02:10 |
| lilstevie | wmarone: not so much, | 02:11 |
| lilstevie | it makes it harder | 02:11 |
| lilstevie | everything up to the bootloader is encrypted | 02:11 |
| ali1234 | so it's generally impossible for the user to update the bootloader, even if there was a "signed" update teleased? | 02:11 |
| lilstevie | exploits still allow kernel changed | 02:11 |
| lilstevie | ali1234: no the bootloader has the ability to encrypt updates | 02:11 |
| wmarone | hm | 02:11 |
| ali1234 | then... that means the bootloader has the key? | 02:12 |
| lilstevie | no | 02:12 |
| wmarone | that might be why I haven't heard a firestorm of hate towards asus and acer | 02:12 |
| lilstevie | it runs through the AES engine | 02:12 |
| lilstevie | but the bootloader clears the key | 02:12 |
| lilstevie | not that it matters | 02:12 |
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| lilstevie | initiating an update from userland works | 02:12 |
| ali1234 | it matters to me :) | 02:12 |
| lilstevie | just if something goes wrong you can get fucked | 02:12 |
| ali1234 | is there a wiki about this stuff somewhere or something? | 02:12 |
| lilstevie | um, a little on xda | 02:13 |
| ali1234 | uff | 02:13 |
| lilstevie | biggest thing is, the SBK is needed to initiate communication with APX mode | 02:13 |
| ali1234 | i don't understand... where it gets the key from... | 02:14 |
| lilstevie | you don't know the tegra arch then I takeit | 02:14 |
| lilstevie | take it* | 02:14 |
| ali1234 | nope | 02:14 |
| lilstevie | ok, it is in tegra fuses | 02:14 |
| ali1234 | does it have like, a hardware keystore? | 02:14 |
| lilstevie | they are efuses | 02:14 |
| ali1234 | such that you can encrypt things but not read out the key? | 02:15 |
| ali1234 | and also each one is unique set at the factory? | 02:15 |
| lilstevie | which when initialized they are part of the keystore | 02:15 |
| lilstevie | ali1234: thats what ACER do | 02:15 |
| lilstevie | ASUS no though | 02:15 |
| ali1234 | yeah i was talking about the acer thing all along | 02:15 |
| lilstevie | and the keyslot is cleared from the AES engine before you boot | 02:15 |
| ali1234 | that's pretty lame | 02:17 |
| ali1234 | why is hardware encryption always set up to work against the owner of the device? | 02:17 |
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| lilstevie | well that is how tegra is set up :p | 02:18 |
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| ali1234 | i don't have a problem with the architecture | 02:20 |
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| ali1234 | the problem is who gets custody of the private key. it should be me, and nobody else | 02:22 |
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| lilstevie | heh | 02:48 |
| lilstevie | its symetric btw | 02:49 |
| ali1234 | s/private/secret/ | 03:04 |
| lilstevie | hm' | 03:06 |
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| Stskeeps | zzz | 06:18 |
| lilstevie | lol Stskeeps | 06:22 |
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| Stskeeps | morn lilstevie | 06:50 |
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| lilstevie | afternoon | 06:54 |
| rantom | morning | 06:59 |
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| * Stskeeps stretches | 09:05 | |
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| niqt | hi | 09:08 |
| niqt | where is image for this http://t.co/hm8wpjDf ? | 09:12 |
| lbt | morning | 09:12 |
| Stskeeps | niqt: not public yet as we want to clean it up a bit | 09:13 |
| Stskeeps | morn lbt | 09:13 |
| niqt | ok | 09:13 |
| lbt | should be around today - nasty issues with plumbing yesterday :( | 09:13 |
| lbt | heating still not working properly ... | 09:13 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 09:13 |
| Stskeeps | i'd like to discuss process when you have an hour or two | 09:14 |
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| lbt | OK - I was going to take a look at the CE situation | 09:15 |
| lbt | may need to start some rebuilds | 09:15 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 09:15 |
| Stskeeps | just to slowly kickstart use of BOSS in Mer so | 09:15 |
| Stskeeps | and what we specifically need to do | 09:15 |
| lbt | OK - you're playing the "carrot" card :) | 09:15 |
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| Stskeeps | nah, just practicalities | 09:16 |
| lbt | hehe - it's allowed | 09:16 |
| Stskeeps | http://gerrit.googlecode.com/svn/documentation/2.1.6/config-hooks.html looks interesting | 09:16 |
| Stskeeps | another gerrit issue i noticed, a slightly annoying one: i change the hostname and because of the way openid/google accounts work, it sees logins as completely new identities | 09:17 |
| lbt | yes - they're there - but iirc they re-invented git hooks. So if you commit to gerrit hooks you can't run a non-gerrit git server | 09:17 |
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| Stskeeps | -ish, those aren't stored in the actual git repos | 09:18 |
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| Stskeeps | so it's more like hook into gerrit process instead of individual gits | 09:18 |
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| lbt | yes - exactly | 09:18 |
| lbt | but again, I've not looked in detail - this was part of someones explanation | 09:19 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 09:19 |
| Stskeeps | i think we can abstract ourselves a bit so we don't specifically rely on a specific review board | 09:19 |
| Stskeeps | http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Process is my initial thoughts on what we probably need to do as a start | 09:20 |
| Stskeeps | intentionally abstracted as to not rely on gerrit vs reviewboard vs whatever | 09:23 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt, Sage_ , vgrade, w00t, Mordae: please re-login to http://review.merproject.org , go to "settings" -> Profile, give me "account id" and don't do anything else | 09:39 |
| lbt | 1000005 | 09:40 |
| Stskeeps | hmm, ok, so it's a google account only problem | 09:41 |
| Stskeeps | as your identity is static | 09:41 |
| lbt | OK, good | 09:41 |
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| w00t | 1000003 | 09:43 |
| w00t | typed by hand as am mobile so may be off by a 0 | 09:44 |
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| Stskeeps | w00t: ok, that was after logging? | 09:44 |
| Stskeeps | interesting | 09:45 |
| Stskeeps | log in , i mean | 09:45 |
| Stskeeps | for the logs: this was the problem: http://groups.google.com/group/repo-discuss/browse_thread/thread/dfc05c752d22a197 | 09:46 |
| lbt | I'm not liking that you have to sign in to google to view archives of mailing lists | 09:47 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: that's kind awkward, true | 09:47 |
| lbt | how ironic | 09:48 |
| w00t | Stskeeps: yes | 09:49 |
| Stskeeps | w00t: ok | 09:49 |
| Stskeeps | w00t: and it seems to work okay, it doesn't see it as a new account? | 09:49 |
| Stskeeps | ie "anonymous coward" | 09:50 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 09:50 |
| w00t | dunno hard to check atm | 09:52 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 09:53 |
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| * Stskeeps sets up gitweb | 10:30 | |
| vgrade | morning | 10:30 |
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| lilstevie | morning vgrade | 10:33 |
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| Jucato | good evening | 10:34 |
| Jucato | lilstevie: it seems most of the Transformer units around here are B60* | 10:34 |
| lilstevie | Jucato: B6 is ok | 10:36 |
| lilstevie | B7 is when the transition happened | 10:36 |
| Jucato | ah | 10:36 |
| Stskeeps | transition? | 10:37 |
| Jucato | oh crap. forgot I have to test vgrade's n900 image. and that I forgot to buy a card reader for the desktop -_- | 10:37 |
| lilstevie | Stskeeps: they changed the secure boot key on newer units | 10:37 |
| Stskeeps | lilstevie: ah | 10:37 |
| lilstevie | but it is very random | 10:37 |
| lilstevie | there is no specific serial that is the change over | 10:38 |
| lilstevie | :/ | 10:38 |
| vgrade | Stskeeps, 1000004 | 10:38 |
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| Stskeeps | vgrade: ok, looks like you're good | 10:40 |
| vgrade | Jucato, are you planning to test that N900 image? | 10:40 |
| vgrade | Stskeeps, ok | 10:40 |
| Jucato | vgrade: kinda. just dd it directly to a microSD card right? | 10:41 |
| Jucato | as long as it won't brick the n900, I'm good :P | 10:41 |
| lilstevie | vgrade: I need a bit of a hand with the accel drivers still | 10:42 |
| vgrade | Jucato yea if you have the dual boot stuff on there. | 10:42 |
| lilstevie | vgrade: I am getting some weird error | 10:42 |
| Jucato | vgrade: yeah. u-boot and stuff. I used to try out meego ce releases | 10:42 |
| vgrade | lilstevie, about matching formats | 10:43 |
| vgrade | Jucato, ok your good to go | 10:43 |
| Jucato | there's a fire extinguisher nearby anyway. just in case | 10:44 |
| Jucato | :D | 10:44 |
| lilstevie | vgrade: about version matching modules | 10:44 |
| vgrade | lilstevie, what kernel version are you on | 10:45 |
| lilstevie | 2.6.38.3 | 10:46 |
| lilstevie | capturing the exact wording is a bit of a pain, cause it flashes on screen, but it doesn't show up in logs | 10:46 |
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| vgrade | lilstevie, which ux and image is this with | 10:49 |
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| lilstevie | NvRmModuleGetCapabilities: MOD[85] | 10:50 |
| lilstevie | thats all I have captured so far of the error | 10:50 |
| lilstevie | tablet-ux | 10:50 |
| lilstevie | that I generated | 10:50 |
| vgrade | lilstevie, I see that on my images as well | 10:51 |
| lilstevie | cannot find matching version of module | 10:51 |
| lilstevie | ok, well my issue is that it flashes | 10:51 |
| lilstevie | so the image shows | 10:52 |
| lilstevie | for like 2-3 seconds, then the screen goes black | 10:52 |
| vgrade | but only on tablet, plasma is ok | 10:52 |
| lilstevie | yeah | 10:53 |
| vgrade | can you try 16 bit depth on xorg config | 10:53 |
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| lilstevie | trying now | 10:58 |
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| lilstevie | vgrade: awesome worked | 11:01 |
| vgrade | lilstevie, np | 11:05 |
| lilstevie | now I just need to figure out buttons :p | 11:06 |
| vgrade | il, did you do some pics/video? | 11:06 |
| lilstevie | vgrade: I sent you a link with plasma | 11:06 |
| Stskeeps | Mordae: ping | 11:07 |
| lilstevie | hmm how do you quit an app? | 11:07 |
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| vgrade | lilstevie, with the optical sensor on the wetab | 11:22 |
| vgrade | lilstevie, windows key on a usb kb if you have usb host | 11:23 |
| vgrade | i really needs a gesture or hardware button | 11:23 |
| lbt | OK - we have a queue of build trials for n950 now | 11:24 |
| Stskeeps | nice | 11:24 |
| lbt | and I've logged a bug against islam for the silly osc session timeout that boss is having | 11:25 |
| lilstevie | vgrade: I have a home button on the keyboard dock which seemed to do it | 11:25 |
| lilstevie | (same id as windows) | 11:25 |
| vgrade | lilstevie, yes probably. I missed the link to the pics/video can you post here | 11:27 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: there was a rejection for you : Package policy-settings-basic-n950 not built successfully in project home:stskeeps:mer:hw:n950 repository CE_Mer_Core_armv7hl for architecture armv8el | 11:27 |
| Jucato | vgrade: seeing the plasma active splash screen! :D | 11:28 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: that's not going to be fixed right away since we don't have policy framework atm | 11:28 |
| Jucato | (and got a notice about power management) | 11:28 |
| vgrade | Jucato, ok good | 11:28 |
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| vgrade | Jucato, first boot takes a while | 11:30 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: same error should exist for n900 | 11:30 |
| lilstevie | vgrade: https://picasaweb.google.com/100825745639484086218/ | 11:30 |
| lilstevie | no videos yet | 11:30 |
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| lbt | no, just the rescue-initrd | 11:31 |
| lbt | simply not present | 11:31 |
| Jucato | vgrade: oh subsequent boots will be faster? I mean if I boot back into Maemo 5 and book later again into Active, it will not "reset" right? | 11:31 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: correct | 11:31 |
| vgrade | Jucato, right | 11:32 |
| Jucato | cool :) *puts it away for a while* | 11:32 |
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| Jucato | vgrade: to see even just the splash screen was already nerdgasmic for me :D | 11:32 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: so, i should help review? | 11:33 |
| Jucato | vgrade: this is based on mer already? | 11:33 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: I scripted a review accept as this is just a priming run | 11:34 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: ok | 11:34 |
| lbt | but https://build.pub.meego.com/project/monitor?project=CE%3AAdaptation%3AN950-N9# | 11:34 |
| vgrade | Jucato, yes on the kickstart Stskeeps posted yesterday for Nemo | 11:34 |
| Jucato | oh | 11:34 |
| lbt | failing on armv7el - I've not even looked why | 11:34 |
| vgrade | Jucato, can you take a snap, how far did it boot? | 11:34 |
| Jucato | seems to have frozen up | 11:35 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: -bin will likely fail on armv7el, don't bother building for it | 11:35 |
| lbt | I'm about to run the generic x86 | 11:35 |
| lbt | https://build.pub.meego.com/project/monitor?project=home%3Astskeeps%3Amer%3Ahw%3An950 works though ? | 11:35 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: that's armv8el | 11:35 |
| lbt | oh, nm | 11:35 |
| lbt | sorry | 11:35 |
| Stskeeps | n900/n950 is hardfp only | 11:35 |
| Jucato | vgrade: up to the Introduction activity, but it failed to load the Welcome widget, which takes up more tha the screen (so the box goes beyond the screen, but the activity controls are placed properly) | 11:35 |
| lbt | yanking the bad build targets from CE:Adaptation:N950-N9 | 11:36 |
| vgrade | Jucato, sec for key combination, can you do a picture | 11:37 |
| lbt | I just saw 2 columns and thought they'd been setup as duplicates :) | 11:37 |
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| lbt | boss is churning through - here's the trial build for 2504 https://build.pub.meego.com/project/monitor?project=CE:Adaptation:N950-N9:Trial:SR2504 | 11:37 |
| Jucato | vgrade: trying to get one. lighting at home is terrible at night :) | 11:38 |
| lbt | so if it goes wrong it (theoretically) shouldn't delete it and we can diagnose | 11:38 |
| vgrade | ALT+D+R to remove welcome screen | 11:39 |
| Jucato | vgrade: what's alt on the n900? :) the "Fn" key? any it seems frozen. might have to restart it | 11:40 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: Project home:sage:Mer:adaptation:x86 does not contain a repositorythat builds only against project CE:Adaptation:x86-generic repository Mer_Core_armv7hl for architectures armv8el | 11:42 |
| Stskeeps | .. x86 against ARM? | 11:42 |
| lbt | yeah - that's the single priming run - I thought the config was done yesterday | 11:43 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 11:43 |
| lbt | we don't have much of a dashboard - thinks are too scattered :( | 11:44 |
| lbt | I intend to have a 'tab' in OBS showing the config and process selected for a project | 11:44 |
| lbt | I'v proof-of-concepted it and it's not hard | 11:44 |
| lbt | (cf the 'Project Config / Users / Subproject ' tabs) | 11:45 |
| Jucato | vgrade: sorry, best I could do on such short notice: http://i.imgur.com/jCV7Z.jpg | 11:48 |
| lbt | that's better | 11:48 |
| Jucato | (usually don't do shots of my phone :) | 11:48 |
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| Jucato | vgrade: ah well, looks like it really hangs up there. (already tried restarting) | 11:54 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: so the x86-generic packages really are 'bad' - Sage_ was fixing them up | 12:03 |
| lbt | If anyone is bored we could do with changes files in home:sage:Mer:adaptation:x86 mtdev slang newt and linux-firmware being fixed up | 12:04 |
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| vgrade | Jucato, tried the alt+d+r? | 12:19 |
| Jucato | vgrade: I only know Ctrl and Fn and Shift keys on the n900. I don't know how to do an "Alt" | 12:20 |
| vgrade | ah just seen your message sry | 12:20 |
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| Jucato | sorry, crashed. | 12:22 |
| Jucato | vgrade: also, if you could see in that shot, the panel above is a bit broken. specifically the icons to the left show up for a few second and then get replaced by that X button. the rest of the system is unresponsive *except* when the screen is locked. I seem to have been able to unlock it. going to try to reproduce that now | 12:25 |
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| vgrade | Stskeeps, is there any key combo in N900 adaptation to generate and Alt keypress | 12:30 |
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| Stskeeps | don't think so | 12:31 |
| Stskeeps | check the x11 keymap | 12:31 |
| Stskeeps | s | 12:31 |
| Sage_ | Stskeeps: 1000002 | 12:31 |
| Stskeeps | Sage_: ok, so it was just my login that was messed up | 12:31 |
| Sage_ | I'll have a fix round tomorrow at some point | 12:33 |
| Sage_ | Today I don't have time to do much. | 12:33 |
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| Jucato | vgrade: strangely enough, I can drag the unlock icon (the visual is slow, but the action/response is fast) | 12:42 |
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| vgrade | I think we need to get rid of that welcome dialog, we had the same issue on vega but were able to remove the widget using the alt-r-d combo | 12:51 |
| Jucato | it seems I could actually "scroll down" *very slowly*. but I did something that kinda stopped that ... heh | 12:53 |
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| * Stskeeps upgrades his n950 | 13:15 | |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: /me tries to understand BOSS | 14:20 |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: back now - what do you want to know :) | 15:29 |
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| Stskeeps | i'll ask when done watching the big bang theory :P | 15:40 |
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| lbt | hehe - we recorded all the reruns and are on series 2 now | 15:44 |
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| Stskeeps | so, long story short: workflow and AMQP is what's used to do general workflow handling and message queueing in BOSS, right? | 15:46 |
| Stskeeps | err | 15:47 |
| Stskeeps | ruote and AMQP i mean | 15:47 |
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| lbt | ruote is the workflow engine | 15:49 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 15:49 |
| lbt | amqp simply does reliable message queues | 15:49 |
| lbt | clients (python) do the work and listen to amqp queues | 15:50 |
| lbt | clients can be any lang really | 15:50 |
| Stskeeps | clients=participants? | 15:50 |
| lbt | yes | 15:50 |
| Stskeeps | o | 15:50 |
| Stskeeps | k | 15:50 |
| Stskeeps | what has been the biggest issues in the development up to now, ie, setbacks, etc? | 15:52 |
| Stskeeps | just to keep track | 15:52 |
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| lbt | of BOSS ? | 15:52 |
| Stskeeps | right | 15:52 |
| lbt | in my opinion we've taken it to a production style development process too early. | 15:53 |
| lbt | it has also been hurt by not having lib-osc | 15:53 |
| Stskeeps | i can't find any good explanation of what SkyNET is, can you elaborate on that? | 15:54 |
| lbt | mmm ... it's like a framework for running participants | 15:54 |
| lbt | each participant is a simple plugin that only does logic | 15:55 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 15:55 |
| lbt | skynet is all the daemon, logging, start, stop, register | 15:55 |
| lbt | so "skynet register check_changelog" | 15:55 |
| lbt | "skynet start check_changelog" | 15:55 |
| lbt | "skynet log check_changelog" | 15:55 |
| Stskeeps | so it's kinda like svchost from windows, it hosts one or more 'services', ie, participants | 15:55 |
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| lbt | yeah - sounds right | 15:56 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 15:56 |
| lbt | it's only a shell script | 15:56 |
| lbt | https://meego.gitorious.org/meego-infrastructure-tools/boss-standard-workflow/blobs/master/participants/get_changelog.py | 15:56 |
| lbt | so that's a small participant - no need to worry about daemons, handling signals, system shutdown, logging | 15:57 |
| lbt | also no need to think about amqp | 15:57 |
| lbt | just 3 basic interfaces | 15:57 |
| Stskeeps | so, process defines to take worksheet/json structure first to get_changelog, then to another check, then to another one, etc? | 15:57 |
| lbt | yes | 15:57 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 15:57 |
| lbt | http://autodoc.meego.com/boss/process-store/CE/SRCSRV_REQUEST_CREATE.CE.pdef | 15:58 |
| lbt | that process has to start sometime - on an event | 15:58 |
| lbt | so anything that does 'events' has to have a launcher | 15:58 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 15:58 |
| lbt | to convert event to a process :) | 15:58 |
| lbt | robogrator handles OBS events.... does a filesystem lookup | 15:59 |
| lbt | and then launches the process it finds | 15:59 |
| lbt | oop that was a bad url to show you | 15:59 |
| Stskeeps | convert event to a process sounds weird in my ears - i would think rather that an event comes in as a worksheet and then gets passed on to the right process - i assume processes can start other processes? | 16:00 |
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| lbt | no | 16:00 |
| lbt | an event happens inside OBS | 16:01 |
| lbt | or in bugzilla | 16:01 |
| lbt | or in the real world ... | 16:01 |
| Stskeeps | right | 16:01 |
| Stskeeps | and based on that event, a process is started with an initial worksheet? | 16:01 |
| lbt | so that needs a beskpoke event-2-process mechanism | 16:01 |
| lbt | yes | 16:01 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 16:01 |
| lbt | for OBS we have a plugin | 16:02 |
| Stskeeps | can that process then launch other process'es with a worksheet? | 16:02 |
| lbt | and it looks here http://autodoc.meego.com/boss/processes/CE/Adaptation/N900/ | 16:02 |
| lbt | yes | 16:02 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 16:02 |
| lbt | it can launch fresh ones or it can do concurrence | 16:02 |
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| lbt | the workflow can handle many types of pattern | 16:04 |
| Stskeeps | is there a good document describing ruote process definitions? | 16:04 |
| Stskeeps | like, how to write them | 16:04 |
| lbt | superb | 16:04 |
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| lbt | but somewhat technical | 16:04 |
| lbt | http://ruote.rubyforge.org | 16:04 |
| lbt | first see http://workflowpatterns.com/patterns/control/advanced_branching/wcp7_animation.php | 16:04 |
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| Stskeeps | right, i worked with coloured petri nets / was in that research group so this isn't a stranger to me | 16:05 |
| lbt | that is from an academic analysis of wflow | 16:05 |
| lbt | OK so http://ruote.rubyforge.org/patterns.html | 16:05 |
| lbt | is about how various patterns in that analysis are realised in ruote | 16:06 |
| lbt | (incomplete but getting there) | 16:06 |
| lbt | anyhow - the issues for BOSS are not in the ruote or amqp space | 16:07 |
| Stskeeps | ok, so i can see ruote has workflow and defines participants too - where does AMQP fit in? | 16:08 |
| lbt | just above TCP | 16:08 |
| lbt | and should be almost ignored | 16:08 |
| Stskeeps | looking at 'the engine and some participants' on http://ruote.rubyforge.org/ | 16:08 |
| lbt | amqp gives reliable json message queues over a network - sure there is fun to be had there but it's just a tool | 16:09 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 16:09 |
| lbt | we will eventually be able to do master-master replication etc | 16:09 |
| lbt | which matters when scaling up | 16:09 |
| lbt | we could have chosen zeroMQ and probably done just as well | 16:10 |
| Stskeeps | ok, so, what handles the ruote workflow? skynet? | 16:10 |
| lbt | not really | 16:11 |
| Stskeeps | specifically what hosts it | 16:11 |
| lbt | skynet just launches the participants | 16:11 |
| lbt | ruote has a worker class | 16:11 |
| lbt | we make an instance | 16:11 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 16:11 |
| lbt | and run it under daemontools/runnit | 16:11 |
| lbt | so it reloads if it dies | 16:11 |
| lbt | it's 'robust' | 16:12 |
| lbt | so if it crashes the DB should always be consistent | 16:12 |
| lbt | boss is simply an instance of a ruote worker | 16:12 |
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| Stskeeps | ok, so, let's say we have http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Infrastructure/BOSS/Standard_workflow#Example_Workflow - check_submitter_maintainer will talk over AMQP to skynet participants check_submitter_maintainer? | 16:14 |
| lbt | yes | 16:14 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 16:15 |
| lbt | think of it as like RPC | 16:15 |
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| Stskeeps | this is RuoteAMQP::ParticipantProxy ? | 16:15 |
| lbt | see the msg I sent | 16:15 |
| lbt | yes | 16:15 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 16:15 |
| Stskeeps | so theoretically i can start prototyping a Mer process definition | 16:15 |
| lbt | yes | 16:15 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 16:15 |
| lbt | now I *deliberately* wrote boss to allow personal hacking | 16:16 |
| lbt | so you can run boss participants on shell.in | 16:16 |
| Stskeeps | how much footprint does BOSS take? | 16:16 |
| Stskeeps | installation, memory, cpu | 16:16 |
| lbt | many kb | 16:16 |
| Stskeeps | is it feasible to run an instance in a 1gb vm? | 16:17 |
| Stskeeps | ie, memory | 16:17 |
| lbt | yes | 16:17 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 16:18 |
| Stskeeps | the packaging checks you've done for CE.. are they tied to OBS? | 16:18 |
| lbt | http://pastie.org/private/edvmmqob4al8wwjemwcdhg | 16:18 |
| lbt | some are - since they typically pull the files from the OBS project | 16:19 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 16:19 |
| Stskeeps | just trying to assess how much we realistically can reuse | 16:19 |
| Stskeeps | can you give me a simple example of something that launches a process with an initial worksheet in JSON? | 16:20 |
| lbt | sec | 16:20 |
| lbt | https://meego.gitorious.org/meego-infrastructure-tools/ruote-amqp-pyclient/trees/master/examples | 16:21 |
| lbt | now ... those are probably a touch outdated - but they'll only get simpler | 16:22 |
| lbt | the client won't work now as the register() method went away | 16:22 |
| Stskeeps | ok, i have to eat so brb | 16:23 |
| Stskeeps | looks good so far | 16:23 |
| lbt | l8r ... | 16:23 |
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| Stskeeps | so, https://meego.gitorious.org/meego-infrastructure-tools/ruote-amqp-pyclient/blobs/master/examples/launch.py - fields is the initial worksheet? | 16:33 |
| lbt | sec - rebooting | 16:34 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 16:34 |
| lbt | need to fix usb for n950 to flash Nemo | 16:35 |
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| Stskeeps | yeah, err, if you did upgrade over the air, don't | 16:35 |
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| Bostik | Stskeeps: qt5 isn't quite ready for tablets, but it should be getting there; case in point: https://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-22261 | 17:04 |
| Bostik | once that gets fixed, we're all better set | 17:04 |
| Stskeeps | interesting | 17:05 |
| Bostik | took ages to debug that closely | 17:06 |
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| pdanek1 | Stskeeps: you own N950? | 17:46 |
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| Stskeeps | pdanek1: i don't own it | 19:15 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: don't try to flash nemo when you have beta2 + over the air, there's no public flasher image for the PR1.1 thing | 19:15 |
| pdanek1 | ok | 19:16 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: I avoided the OTA upgrade | 19:30 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: so something like this could be a beginning of a process? http://pastie.org/2741880 | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | (rough) | 19:45 |
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| lbt | yeah | 19:46 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 19:47 |
| lbt | the hard thing about this stuff is deciding where to break the logic down | 19:47 |
| lbt | also what is passed around on the worksheet | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 19:47 |
| lbt | have you read the CE one ? | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 19:47 |
| lbt | what about the Apps one? | 19:48 |
| Stskeeps | not that one | 19:48 |
| lbt | http://autodoc.meego.com/boss/processes/MeeGo/1.2/Harmattan/Apps/Testing/SRCSRV_REQUEST_ACCEPTED | 19:48 |
| lbt | just to give you a flavour | 19:48 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 19:48 |
| lbt | it does some concurrence and voting | 19:48 |
| lbt | it also has a periodic reminder that a supertester needs to look at an unloved package | 19:49 |
| Stskeeps | how well does this stuff deal with "reach out and touch a human"? | 19:49 |
| lbt | there are 2 answers :) | 19:50 |
| lbt | at the conceptual / design level .... really well! | 19:50 |
| lbt | at the "have we implemented it yet" level - not so much | 19:50 |
| lbt | but if you consider the app store | 19:50 |
| lbt | that reaches out to humans for votes | 19:51 |
| lbt | and it slots in really well | 19:51 |
| lbt | essentially your web app (or whatever) simply listens on the queue for tasks | 19:51 |
| lbt | then the human interacts with the web app | 19:52 |
| lbt | and the app sends the task back | 19:52 |
| lbt | nb ... running CE on my N950 now ... next step is to run Nero | 19:52 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 19:52 |
| Stskeeps | Nemo | 19:53 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:53 |
| lbt | I keep doing that :) | 19:53 |
| lbt | with your process... what event is it reacting to ? | 19:53 |
| Stskeeps | gerrit patchset crated | 19:54 |
| Stskeeps | created | 19:54 |
| Stskeeps | (or patch received, or whatever..) | 19:54 |
| Stskeeps | we can probably abstract it a bit | 19:54 |
| Stskeeps | so we can hook into both RB and gerrit | 19:55 |
| lbt | *nod* | 19:55 |
| Stskeeps | a patchset received is pretty much the entry point for mer contribution, so | 19:56 |
| Stskeeps | http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Process is where it fits in | 19:57 |
| lbt | I read that earlier | 19:57 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, i updated it a bit during today | 19:57 |
| lbt | ah, so you did | 19:58 |
| lbt | so I think the idea is that boss does the drudge work | 19:58 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, it handles automation | 19:58 |
| Stskeeps | and gets things done/checked/etc | 19:58 |
| lbt | and there are 2 approaches - it controls an end-2-end process with hand-off to people (as per CE right now) | 19:59 |
| lbt | or it handles snippets and people hand off to BOSS | 19:59 |
| Stskeeps | well, or my third approach: it handles patchsets and it acts like an automated reviewer and gives feedback on the change, leaving maintainers/humans to do the final review | 20:00 |
| Stskeeps | / approval | 20:00 |
| lbt | who applies the patch? | 20:00 |
| Stskeeps | maintainer clicks submit when patchset is marked as verified and reviewed as +2 (, approved) and gerrit merges to git | 20:01 |
| lbt | so CE does 'your approach' today | 20:01 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 20:01 |
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| lbt | the difference with gerrit is that boss would then pick up a 'maintainer has made a commit' event | 20:02 |
| lbt | and possibly do a new image or something | 20:02 |
| Stskeeps | it could do that, but probably have done that even earlier in process | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | depending on what makes sense with resources available | 20:03 |
| lbt | or mark "change made, do new QA image tonight" | 20:03 |
| lbt | so it only does QA images on nights when changes occur | 20:03 |
| lbt | all kinds of little rules | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | so, my line of thought is along lines of: before change is even allowed into the master of the package's git, it will have been tested in different ways, localdep builds, image test, submitting to vendors to help verify it etc. when it's inside the master of package's git and staged for updated into "Core"'s git (read: updating the package's git commit that Core points to), it'll do test with the potential combined tests | 20:06 |
| Stskeeps | tests=packages | 20:06 |
| Stskeeps | so we're fairly sure that once Core moves ahead with the admitted changes, it's releasable | 20:06 |
| Stskeeps | and sanity checked | 20:07 |
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| lbt | OK | 20:07 |
| Stskeeps | .. not sure if that made sense | 20:07 |
| lbt | it does - and it raises questions of course | 20:08 |
| lbt | essentially acceptance criteria | 20:08 |
| Stskeeps | right | 20:08 |
| Stskeeps | and how we collect data on how a change affects vendors | 20:08 |
| lbt | veto ? | 20:08 |
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| Stskeeps | sanity check by maintainer based on reactions to change | 20:09 |
| Stskeeps | i think | 20:09 |
| lbt | yep | 20:09 |
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| lbt | I would like our open reference implementations to be notified of changes too | 20:10 |
| Stskeeps | of course | 20:10 |
| lbt | mmm this gets back to that drawing of patches from Core impacting the CI process for the CE/Vendor | 20:10 |
| Stskeeps | the idea is actually that all vendors get notified of QA checks | 20:10 |
| Stskeeps | ie, "can you help us out with this and this change and check it" | 20:11 |
| lbt | do we classify changes | 20:11 |
| lbt | bugfix vs feature | 20:11 |
| Stskeeps | even the smallest can break stuff really :P | 20:11 |
| Stskeeps | in practice they're all changes | 20:12 |
| Stskeeps | perhaps prioritization | 20:12 |
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| lbt | thinking what changes are likely to occur | 20:14 |
| lbt | do you have any data on that? | 20:14 |
| Stskeeps | kyb3r's statistics could be interesting for that | 20:14 |
| Stskeeps | we basically dumped entire meego trunk + history | 20:14 |
| lbt | new upstream, code patch, packaging, | 20:14 |
| Stskeeps | the important thing is that we provide a useful core<->vendor interface and allow vendors to help us out keeping core quality and feed back, closed or open | 20:17 |
| lbt | the vendor notification could be an invitation to participate in CI | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 20:19 |
| lbt | I like that | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | it -is- an invitation for all vendors and that one would be where we hook up CE, hardware adaptations, etc.. | 20:20 |
| lbt | yes | 20:20 |
| lbt | so that's a lot like CE process with the addition of ABI and removal of OTS | 20:21 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 20:21 |
| Stskeeps | that's why i'd like to share a lot of things | 20:21 |
| lbt | I think it makes sense to have a reference implementation BTW ... | 20:21 |
| lbt | maybe kvm | 20:21 |
| Stskeeps | no preferential vendors, if we are required to have a proper interface for reference impl, we should offer it to everyone | 20:22 |
| Stskeeps | we can set up a few easy targets, though :) | 20:22 |
| lbt | I'm thinking of an early gate | 20:22 |
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| lbt | ie we run a kvm image and if it fails there then we don't notify vendors - change (probably) fails | 20:23 |
| kyb3R | Stskeeps: stats coming, I have been pushing the other researcher to give me some graphs | 20:23 |
| Stskeeps | well, we can always do early-warning vendors, as in, these gets asked first in order to save everyone else effort | 20:24 |
| lbt | or... | 20:24 |
| lbt | yes | 20:24 |
| lbt | was just about to say that | 20:24 |
| Stskeeps | with ability for everyone to sign up for early warning | 20:24 |
| lbt | permit early hook or late hook | 20:24 |
| kyb3R | (I would do those stats my self, but engaged to too many things already ) | 20:24 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: "the review process will last at least 48 hours, for early notification vendors we notify right away, if there has not been any bad reviews within 12 hours, we notify late vendors", ish | 20:28 |
| Stskeeps | sounds like a good approach | 20:29 |
| lbt | *nod* | 20:29 |
| Stskeeps | so that's what i would like to steer towards in next week | 20:32 |
| lbt | LinuxCon | 20:32 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, i know | 20:32 |
| Stskeeps | monday, saturday, sunday ;) | 20:33 |
| lbt | :) | 20:33 |
| lbt | piece of cake | 20:33 |
| Stskeeps | i'm a little unsure how effectively to implement the vendor notification stuff | 20:33 |
| lbt | I would be happy to do this using BOSS - it's a good match | 20:34 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, that's the plan | 20:34 |
| lbt | the network transport.... not sure | 20:34 |
| Stskeeps | the git side of things is a bit of a paradigm switch to how it looks like it's currently done, with OBS | 20:34 |
| Stskeeps | but i see very good things with the git approach that makes our life a lot simpler and process a lot easier to write | 20:35 |
| lbt | it is | 20:35 |
| lbt | I have a massive preference for the git approach though | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | i've hooked up gitweb for gerrit now too, a bit more useufl | 20:36 |
| lbt | it gives an authoritative definition of the source | 20:36 |
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| Stskeeps | i'd also like to model some typical processes, like, roadmapping, requirements processes, code freeze policies, etc | 20:37 |
| Stskeeps | see how many roles we can replace with proper process | 20:38 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:38 |
| Stskeeps | (you have been replaced with a two-liner shell script..) | 20:38 |
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| lbt | hehe | 20:38 |
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| lbt | but that's the point - what's left should *need* a human - hence "boss does the drudge work" | 20:39 |
| Stskeeps | one thing though.. how does all this deal with processes that change? | 20:39 |
| Stskeeps | like, i have a process that's ongoing, but definition changes mid-way | 20:40 |
| lbt | BT spent millions *trying* to solve this problem :) | 20:40 |
| Stskeeps | and they didn't succeed? | 20:40 |
| lbt | nope | 20:40 |
| lbt | it's a very very hard problem | 20:40 |
| lbt | if you use a state machine approach you're stuffed | 20:41 |
| Stskeeps | the rule is then that you go back to square one ideally i guess, ie, as a design principle | 20:41 |
| lbt | because we use worksheets... | 20:41 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. | 20:41 |
| lbt | we can cope | 20:41 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:41 |
| lbt | so for us ... just change the definition | 20:41 |
| lbt | next launch will use the new process, in flight uses the old one | 20:41 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 20:42 |
| lbt | there are issues - eg if your participant api changes | 20:42 |
| lbt | so there are 2 options - versioned interface | 20:42 |
| lbt | or run get_changelog_v2 | 20:42 |
| lbt | versioned interface is slightly nicer - and can be done as syntactic sugar | 20:43 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 20:43 |
| lbt | but this needs something like the Nokia MINT team behind it | 20:43 |
| lbt | otherwise we lose focus on Mer Core | 20:44 |
| lbt | however... from my perspective ... the design of BOSS and ruote (and the use of AMQP) makes that very doable.... the foundations are strong | 20:44 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 20:44 |
| Stskeeps | well, i'd like to get process running for mer, utilizing BOSS, so that's my focus as that's one of the powers i see in mer :P | 20:45 |
| Stskeeps | and probably a good way to cut costs.. | 20:46 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:46 |
| lbt | yes, I see it as a key to high efficiency | 20:47 |
| lbt | and high quality | 20:47 |
| Stskeeps | it's possible to do amqp-less ruote, i pressume | 20:48 |
| Stskeeps | i'm thinking in vendors | 20:48 |
| lbt | mmm | 20:48 |
| Stskeeps | for simple process | 20:48 |
| lbt | anything is possible | 20:48 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 20:48 |
| lbt | but it's simpler to use amqp | 20:48 |
| Stskeeps | right, time for sleep | 20:49 |
| Stskeeps | cya tomorrow | 20:49 |
| lbt | it's easier to install and run than mysql | 20:49 |
| lbt | OK - I'll write up a bit | 20:49 |
| lbt | b4 you go | 20:49 |
| Stskeeps | mm? | 20:50 |
| lbt | are we aiming to have Nemo on the N950 for linuxcon? | 20:50 |
| lbt | from the BOSS managed process | 20:50 |
| Stskeeps | n950 hw adaptation isn't impressive, n900 is better | 20:50 |
| lbt | OK - | 20:50 |
| lbt | N900, then ExoPC ? | 20:51 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 20:51 |
| lbt | the N950 will have sexy gadget appeal :) | 20:51 |
| ShadowJK | any unobtainable gadget becomes appealing ;) | 20:56 |
| lbt | ShadowJK: true | 20:56 |
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