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| Stskeeps | morn | 07:53 |
|---|---|---|
| tbr | meh-ning | 07:54 |
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| locusf | morning | 08:51 |
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| TMavica | Will Jolla HK office move too? | 15:18 |
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| Stskeeps | why? | 15:33 |
| Stskeeps | it moved 2 times already :) | 15:33 |
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| fenris_kcf | greetings. i'd like to order a Jolla Phone, but it seems the payment methods are quite restricted. i don't own a credit card and i'm not willing to have a PayPal-account :/ is there any other way (i think "Finnish Online Banking (Paytrail)" ain't no option for me either)? | 15:49 |
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| deztructor | fenris_kcf: paytrail is also supported in the jolla web shop | 15:58 |
| fenris_kcf | deztructor: is that available outside Finnland? | 15:58 |
| sharpneli | fenris_kcf: What other options there even are than paypal and credit card and bank transfer? | 16:02 |
| deztructor | fenris_kcf: dunno, at least, you can try, also iirc paypal supports one time payments from a (also debit?) card w/o registration. If you do not have a card which way of payment could be also used? | 16:02 |
| cehteh | fenris_kcf: i got one (second) delivered last week which i intend to send back (but jolla has currently struggles to manage the return) .. where in germany are you? i could send you this device | 16:02 |
| sharpneli | fenris_kcf: Send cash via mail? | 16:02 |
| cehteh | (unopened original package) | 16:03 |
| fenris_kcf | sharpneli: i would make a regular transfer or use paysafecard | 16:03 |
| fenris_kcf | cehteh: hmm, that doesn't sound like the option i should prefer | 16:03 |
| sharpneli | You can iirc transfer money to paypal via SWIFT | 16:03 |
| cehteh | fenris_kcf: why not? | 16:04 |
| fenris_kcf | would you do such a deal? somebody on IRC you don't know offers you to send the phone to you? | 16:04 |
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| tbr | people order stuff on ebay... | 16:05 |
| tbr | or from china | 16:05 |
| fenris_kcf | well, not me | 16:05 |
| cehteh | well i would argree on some safe method with you, and i tinhk some trustworthy people here know me. you are in germany? i use see your t-ipconnect domain so i guessd | 16:06 |
| fenris_kcf | i'm in west saxony, yes | 16:06 |
| deztructor | fenris_kcf: try to choose paytrail option, they support several different payment methods | 16:06 |
| cehteh | i could as jolla support to treat you as original customer, would save them some troubles to arrange the return | 16:06 |
| cehteh | i am in karlsruhe :) | 16:07 |
| pbrunier | I would think twice before buying one. With the current trouble at Jolla, you don't know if the harbour store will stay open for the next 4 years. | 16:07 |
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| fenris_kcf | pbrunier: i was thinking about that too | 16:07 |
| fenris_kcf | but i also think now is the time to support them more than ever | 16:08 |
| cehteh | fenris_kcf: if you reconsider query me .. and i cant make much of a deal out of it, would be my loss as well, i can tell you the story why i got 2 devices in the query | 16:08 |
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| cehteh | well and they need 10mio Eur .. how much profit do they do per device, i think 30Eur at most, that would mean they have to sell a shitload of devices in december | 16:10 |
| fenris_kcf | so you suggest to wait until next year? | 16:10 |
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| cehteh | heh .. i'd like if you buy mine .. and i am also buyed one (the other one i use) recently | 16:11 |
| cehteh | well before the problems over there where known | 16:11 |
| cehteh | got it 2 weeks ago | 16:11 |
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| cehteh | i quite like it, much more than android | 16:12 |
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| tbr | cehteh: they are nowhere near turning profit, so device sales are not /that/ important in this calculation. | 16:12 |
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| cehteh | tbr: unfortunally | 16:12 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. remember that nobody takes you seriously as a OS until you actually ship devices and have it approved by mobile vendors, sales channels, and users | 16:12 |
| Stskeeps | and taking risk on OS is something that usually burns brands | 16:13 |
| tbr | what the investors bought into is the business plan, which involves licensing out the OS | 16:13 |
| cehteh | i know | 16:13 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: what you mean WindowsPhone wasn't a great choice for the Nokia brand? *snerk* *snerk* | 16:13 |
| fenris_kcf | yeah, that was such a surprize ... not | 16:14 |
| cehteh | would be nicer if they had a sustainable plan on their own devices, if even barely sustainable | 16:14 |
| cehteh | but well i wouldnt have buyed the device for 400Eur | 16:14 |
| Stskeeps | cehteh: really hard to be sustainable for SW development | 16:14 |
| tbr | cehteh: that was never realistic | 16:14 |
| Stskeeps | the margins are really small today | 16:14 |
| cehteh | Stskeeps: i know iknow | 16:14 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: it might actually have been somewhat realistic without the OS part | 16:14 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: this was a time when oneplus and so on hadn't emerged on the scene | 16:15 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: sure, if you buy devices with the default android image from your ODM | 16:15 |
| tbr | white-label business, still tiny margins and cut throat | 16:15 |
| cehteh | if i had an solution idea which really solves the problems i wouldnt be here :D ... but still i am not very fond of the original plan about licensing an OS mostly build upon free software either | 16:16 |
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| tbr | cehteh: it works for android (though google pulls in the money through a different channel) | 16:16 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: yeah | 16:17 |
| tbr | even symbian was open source at some point... :-> | 16:17 |
| tbr | the fact that a product contains a significant amount of open source software does not preclude making a profit from it | 16:18 |
| tbr | see also RHEL, SLE, etc | 16:19 |
| cehteh | nah i dont say that | 16:19 |
| cehteh | thats ok | 16:19 |
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| cehteh | what would SFOS cost if users would license it? dunno how much phones are sold and how much the development (tablet/research aside, only phone here) costed | 16:21 |
| cehteh | i could imagine to pay a bit for updates and i guess a lot people can do that, as long its reasonable and there are some support gurantees | 16:22 |
| tbr | pricing something as a consumer product is hard | 16:22 |
| Stskeeps | cehteh: the problem is that the mobile market isn't exactly such that people go out and can buy a mobile OS in the shop like buying windows for your PC.. | 16:22 |
| cehteh | but i dont know either if that works or would turn out reasonable | 16:22 |
| cehteh | well jolla could have changed that, they shown sfos on other devices | 16:23 |
| Stskeeps | not to mention that effectively you don't pay for android, or even windows | 16:23 |
| Stskeeps | in mobile devices | 16:23 |
| cehteh | yeah | 16:23 |
| Stskeeps | cehteh: sure, and there's a sizeable porters community | 16:24 |
| cehteh | but when i ask around people *would* pay for it if they had the option and the OS has some benefit over the others, even if its just free and cool | 16:24 |
| cehteh | of course you cant expect $200 or so like a windows license | 16:24 |
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| cehteh | i have absolutely no idea if this would be a viable plan, i only know some people would like and support it | 16:25 |
| Stskeeps | a typical subcontractor hour can run from anything like 120 eur per hour to 500 in worst case | 16:25 |
| tbr | cehteh: the challenge is now a microeconomic / consumer market problem | 16:25 |
| Stskeeps | in mobile linux | 16:25 |
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| cehteh | hey sfos for my wifes aging note2 would be damn cool | 16:25 |
| cehteh | the hardware is still much better than the jolla phones ... quadcore 2GB ram etc | 16:26 |
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| Stskeeps | you can get a pretty functional nexus 5 port | 16:26 |
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| tbr | also another problem is, that going from a community hw adaptation to something that people won't hate can actually be quite expensive | 16:26 |
| cehteh | well we have the note2 here .. i recently installed CM on it. but SFOS ... even if it costs a bit would be damn nice | 16:27 |
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| cehteh | by a bit i prolly mean less than 50Eur | 16:27 |
| * tbr giggles when he sees the occasional person bust in and exclaim: OMG, I still can't make calls on my XYZ phone with the sailfish image, you are such lazy fucks! | 16:27 | |
| cehteh | but you would get a decent performing phone out of it | 16:27 |
| cehteh | tbr: sure | 16:27 |
| tbr | cehteh: now if you paid 50€, what would your expectation towards the OS functionality be? | 16:27 |
| cehteh | should be as good as on the jolla (which still has enough fuckups) | 16:28 |
| cehteh | sure | 16:28 |
| tbr | is the camera allowed to crash twice a day? bluetooh can stop sometimes, GPS won't work only network positioning, etc | 16:28 |
| cehteh | i know that needs work, hence i saied i have no idea if its viable | 16:29 |
| tbr | right, and to get a device to such a quality level, even without going through recertification is easily an investment in the 5-6 figure range | 16:29 |
| tbr | how many licenses at 50€ for note2 do you need to sell to recoup a 50000€ hardware adaptation cost? | 16:29 |
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| M4rtinK2 | I think that the license-to-device-maker model can work even with a fully open OS | 16:31 |
| M4rtinK2 | as they would basically be paying you to make your OR running on they hardware, fix bugs and make it up to date & secure | 16:31 |
| M4rtinK2 | and possibly for new features they want | 16:31 |
| cehteh | hey no idea, but all the samsung galaxy models from that time are sufficently similar with not too much effort you could support some more devices | 16:31 |
| M4rtinK2 | and they would also get to use your brand | 16:31 |
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| M4rtinK2 | +- how RHEL or other enterprise licensing works | 16:31 |
| cehteh | yes you dont license the software, you buy support | 16:31 |
| tbr | cehteh: ok, reasonably similar, so let's say 10k per additional device for verification and fixes. you now support 10 models and invested 140000€ | 16:31 |
| cehteh | and gurantees | 16:31 |
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| M4rtinK2 | I think it could kinda work | 16:32 |
| cehteh | tbr: i am not the marketing dept, i have no idea on sales and estimation | 16:32 |
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| cehteh | 14000€ .. would mean roughly 3000 people licensing it | 16:33 |
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| M4rtinK2 | "buy our devices as it will have updates for at least x years with quick out of band security updates provided by Jolla" | 16:33 |
| cehteh | for me that doesnt look like impossible | 16:33 |
| tbr | M4rtinK2: only if phone hardware would become more discoverable and uniformly supported. Not with the current setup. | 16:33 |
| cehteh | but i really have no idea | 16:33 |
| cehteh | plus the benefit of more SFOS on the market | 16:33 |
| cehteh | which would be kindof priceless | 16:33 |
| M4rtinK2 | tbr: I don't think that's strictly needed for the license-to-manufacturer thing | 16:34 |
| cehteh | err forgot a 0 | 16:34 |
| M4rtinK2 | the people-buying-sailfish does probably need that though | 16:34 |
| tbr | the other problem is, that technically by installing a 3rd party OS your phone might void its certification/approval → it's now a legal liability | 16:35 |
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| tbr | a private individual can get away with that, as it's near impossible that they will even get noticed/caught. But if a business does and suddenly 1000 or 10000 phones on a mobile phone network all start to misbehave... | 16:35 |
| tbr | suddenly the phone software is a huge liability | 16:36 |
| tbr | M4rtinK2: yes, if the manufacturer wants to do their own adaptation work, still it will take them long. | 16:36 |
| tbr | M4rtinK2: I was also thinking along the lines of a generally open market where phone hardware and OS are decoupled. Like PCs | 16:37 |
| Stskeeps | (emergency calls..) | 16:38 |
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| tbr | Stskeeps: who needs that, as long as I can have this shiny frr34k4z01dz mod master ultra rom on my phone! | 16:39 |
| M4rtinK2 | tbr: indeed, it would be good if this got more sane | 16:39 |
| M4rtinK2 | as it is indeed very important for distros to if possible just have a single universal installation image | 16:39 |
| M4rtinK2 | or just one per arch | 16:39 |
| M4rtinK2 | not one per device | 16:39 |
| M4rtinK2 | that does not scale | 16:39 |
| M4rtinK2 | one reason for the SBSA specification for ARM v8 servers | 16:40 |
| Stskeeps | well, if you see the kind of modifications ODMs do to android.. | 16:40 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:40 |
| Stskeeps | single installation image is a pipe dream :) | 16:40 |
| M4rtinK2 | well we have device tree | 16:40 |
| M4rtinK2 | but yeah, still | 16:40 |
| tbr | what can help here are a few factors: android recently moved all firmware and other things into a separate partition | 16:40 |
| M4rtinK2 | even Sonny is millions of lines distant from mainline kernel | 16:40 |
| tbr | neither DT nor ACPI is a good and stable API | 16:40 |
| Stskeeps | oh not even kernel | 16:41 |
| Stskeeps | -android- modifications | 16:41 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:41 |
| Stskeeps | try to take a look at aosp vs codeaurora and cry bitter, bitter tears | 16:41 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: count the ways of the RIL! ;-> | 16:41 |
| M4rtinK2 | well, BSD - that's the point :) | 16:41 |
| M4rtinK2 | still I do hope things improve there | 16:41 |
| M4rtinK2 | well at least for kernel | 16:41 |
| arvut_ | can I allow older deprecated https in the jolla browser? | 16:42 |
| M4rtinK2 | as I think the current state does not scale anymore and something will need to be done about it | 16:42 |
| Stskeeps | it works fine for the throwaway market | 16:42 |
| Stskeeps | nobody cares about good architecture | 16:42 |
| Stskeeps | as long as it is good enough | 16:42 |
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| tbr | also the server market is not all shiny and great either. Try to get kernel support from one of the commercial distro vendors if you're not running on hardware that they "certified". Either they'll laugh and hang up or they will quote you an hourly engineering price that will make you bleed out of several orifices at an alarming rate. | 16:44 |
| tbr | so in the end it all comes full circle, you buy the server locked into a certain distro, for which the manufacturer arranged/paid certification | 16:45 |
| tbr | if you choose something else, it's suddenly just "community hardware adaptation" | 16:45 |
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| Stskeeps | if i was a hw maker today i'd stick to whatever the odm gave, make sure all mods to non-binary android sw was public in git form and kernel too, and make sure to merge security fixes; and raze most of the android stack | 16:47 |
| Stskeeps | as to not worry about the '4.2.2 is too old' problem | 16:48 |
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| Stskeeps | but it'd be damn hard to find a ODM who'd allow that in first plac | 16:50 |
| Stskeeps | e | 16:50 |
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| * Stskeeps glances at weather near hometown | 16:58 | |
| Stskeeps | Wind 65 km/h from the West with gusts up to 107 km/h | 16:58 |
| Stskeeps | well that should be fun | 16:58 |
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| RaYmAn | Stskeeps: denmark pretty much shut down. Even copenhagen - s-strains are cancelled from 22 | 17:04 |
| Stskeeps | RaYmAn: not ba | 17:04 |
| Stskeeps | d | 17:04 |
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| Stskeeps | given it's north west, wonder if it'll make it to poland in some form.. | 17:05 |
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| ortylp | RaYmAn: ups... I'm flying through Copenhagen in 12 hours... | 17:06 |
| Stskeeps | should have cleared up by then | 17:07 |
| RaYmAn | hopefully it'll have passed by then | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | http://en.allmetsat.com/metar-taf/europe.php?icao=EKCH | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | Wind 65 km/h from the West with gusts up to 111 km/h | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | fun! | 17:07 |
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| ortylp | I see... | 17:09 |
| ortylp | Stskeeps: thanks for the link, I am flying only if there is no other option... | 17:10 |
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| arvut_ | its dead vere now? | 17:50 |
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| Yaniel | "WOCKY_CONNECTOR_ERROR_TLS_UNAVAILABLE (#5): TLS requested but server is not XMPP 1.0 co...(try using "old SSL")" | 18:29 |
| Yaniel | nope, no XMPP for me, it seems | 18:29 |
| cehteh | mhm | 18:30 |
| cehteh | works for me | 18:31 |
| cehteh | what server? | 18:32 |
| Yaniel | slack xmpp gateway | 18:32 |
| cehteh | dunno what that is | 18:32 |
| cehteh | i have my own .. prosody | 18:32 |
| Yaniel | slack is like next-gen irc | 18:32 |
| jfred | Slack is a proprietary chat thing | 18:32 |
| Stskeeps | slack is f***king high valuation irc | 18:33 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 18:33 |
| jfred | XD | 18:33 |
| jfred | I would argue that either Matrix or IRCv3 are next-gen IRC | 18:33 |
| Yaniel | anyway it has an xmpp gateway | 18:33 |
| M4rtinK2 | jfred: +1 | 18:33 |
| Yaniel | Matrix looks interesting | 18:34 |
| Yaniel | but I'm a bit worried about how much overhead it generates | 18:34 |
| jfred | in any case, I'm not sure how the Slack XMPP gateway works, but if it exposes rooms as XMPP MUCs it won't work with the sailfish client anyway as that doesn't yet support groupchats | 18:34 |
| Yaniel | as in via chat history | 18:34 |
| jfred | Overhead in what way? | 18:34 |
| Yaniel | the illustration on their main page makes it seem like there is a whole lot of back-and-forth synchronization happening all the time | 18:35 |
| cehteh | xmpp isnt the greatest protocol either, its just there and everyone uses it | 18:36 |
| jfred | Aside from being stored on disk, how is that different from an XMPP MUC? | 18:37 |
| Yaniel | no idea, I haven't used XMPP before either | 18:37 |
| cehteh | you have some native xmpp account? | 18:37 |
| Yaniel | nope | 18:38 |
| Yaniel | I was thinking of setting up a matrix homeserver at some point | 18:38 |
| Yaniel | haven't gotten around to yet | 18:38 |
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| jfred | Any federated protocol will require that your message be sent to all servers participating in federation. The difference being Matrix keeps track of messages even if the client happens to be offline at that point. | 18:40 |
| jfred | Actually scratch that, XMPP MUCs live on one server... | 18:40 |
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| jfred | M4rtinK2: By the way, not sure if the dev spoke with you about it but one of the newer Matrix clients is using universal-components :) | 18:44 |
| Tofe | Like those wonderful quality valves ? | 18:45 |
| locusf | really? | 18:45 |
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| M4rtinK2 | jfred: cool! :) | 18:51 |
| jfred | https://github.com/davidar/tensor | 18:51 |
| M4rtinK2 | jfred: I met some Matrix people on FOSDEM this year :) | 18:51 |
| jfred | oh nice! | 18:51 |
| jfred | I still wish I could go to FOSDEM XD | 18:51 |
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| Yaniel | that purple sidebar though... | 18:52 |
| jfred | Haha, I like the purple sidebar, though it does look a bit out of place on Sailfish :P | 18:52 |
| Yaniel | you mean everywhere | 18:52 |
| M4rtinK2 | the sidebar entries should definitely be larger on the touch variants | 18:56 |
| M4rtinK2 | IMHO | 18:56 |
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