#jollamobile log for Monday, 2015-11-30

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michiellHi all, I was just curious if anybody knows how to order additional batteries for a Jolla10:42
Nicd-there are no additional batteries available10:43
Nicd-some people have researched alternative batteries but of course they are not officially compatible10:43
michiellWell, the idea would be that this would be a way to support the company cash position10:43
michiellBatteries do have a nasty habit of degrading10:44
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Nicd-problem is there aren't any batteries available10:44
michiellAnd it would be nice to get some money into sailors pockets to help them get through the times10:44
michiellNicd: clear.10:44
michiellThanks for the answer.10:45
Nicd-the only time they have sold batteries was earlier this year and the batch was sold out in a couple of hours I think10:45
Nicd-it's sad because Jolla was advertised with a removable battery10:45
SQUelcherNicd-: It is removable, though ;)10:46
sharpneliYeah. It's removable, not replaceable.10:46
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Nicd-not much use in being removable if you cannot get a replacement...10:47
michiellIs this not a quick actionable item? Surely there are suppliers that could provide a batch of batteries?10:47
Nicd-probably not. there's a bunch of logistics to deal with10:47
Nicd-a small batch could very well end up as a net loss for them10:48
Nicd-and they probably don't have money for continued production10:48
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michiellI would order two or three, and I'm sure many other users would too. Earch battery would bring in 1/6th of the price of a new phone.10:53
michiellI'm sure that one could also talk to a company like Acculand for fulfillment.10:54
Nicd-considering how few Jollas were sold that money would still be peanuts10:54
Nicd-because most people would not buy them10:55
michiellI would argue that there would be one sold for each Jolla owner, because anyone can foresee that their battery will go down at some point.10:58
michiellAnd it is a nice way to support Jolla in these tough times.10:58
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Nicd-I would argue that most people by a wide margin will switch phones when their battery starts to die11:00
Nicd-considering Jolla's current situation11:00
Nicd-even if you got 25k people to buy a bettery (unlikely) and got a 10 € profit margin (unlikely) you would only get 250 k€11:00
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michiellA 10 euro margin on a battery should be attainable, I think.12:10
michiellAnd 250k is still something, I would argue.12:10
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michiellNot to mention that even if it only paid for itself the result would be:12:11
michiell1) happy customers12:11
michiell2) staff that has a job for a few months12:11
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phlixi_oi guess that fuels half a month, maybe one after the lyaoffs, but not multiple months...12:43
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phlixi_oi wonder how many sailfish users would pay a monthley fee for updates, and how much...12:45
phlixi_o...i would love to be the paying customer (for example in contrast to google, where youi usually are the product as a user... not the customer)12:46
phlixi_ounfortunately i guess such solutions already have been discarded12:47
phlixi_oand i can not think of actually successfull examples, i just see struggling app.net and similar12:47
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ggabrielwell, we all have calculators, so it can take ~50 eur a year for 20k users to maintain sfos, assuming a 10 mil eur/year requirement12:52
ggabrielbut there are other problems with that12:52
ggabrielI assume that 10 mil eur per year will go up if you have to provide images for other hw and support it12:52
ggabrielerm, I think it's actually 50 eur per month :P12:54
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ggabrielso I wonder how many people are happy to pay that money until Jolla can grow their business12:54
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pdanekTMavica: are you here please?15:49
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paviggabriel: 50 E / month / user is just impossible. People cry for paying 10 E/month for non stop netflix entertainment.16:35
phlixi_othat is why i sayd, i wonder how many would consider to pay monthly, and how much...16:37
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phlixi_ojolla would have to make a psm to determine wether thats viable or not16:38
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paviLets say a new apple phone is worth 600 E and the super fanboi's buy one every year. Than thats worth 50 E.16:39
pavicould we say that Jolla has same fanbois with full pockets?16:39
phlixi_ohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Westendorp's_Price_Sensitivity_Meter (or similar)16:40
phlixi_oi expect something from 5 to 10E (without hardware, only sailfish) might be viable from a comsumer point of view16:42
phlixi_obut thats probably not enough users around...16:42
pavi10 Euro for netflix or sailfish , thats your choice ;)16:43
SmarI can’t see selling upgrades can work any more, with masses16:43
Smarand if you assume a person purchases software with 50 euros where jolla takes 30 % profit...16:43
phlixi_oa lot of services are priced in that range, e.g. mailboxes at germans "freemail" providers (gmx, web.de etc) price the same for their "premium" produkts16:44
phlixi_oalso netflix is a good example16:44
Hellegiven that I know SailfishOS and love it, I'd probably would pay 10 euro for it a month, because I think that Android and iOS are just worthless on phones (Android is okayish on tablets)16:44
phlixi_oi think the selling point is that in this case you are the customer, not like android, where you are the product16:45
phlixi_oproblem in all cases is to establish a userbase large enough16:47
phlixi_obut i think jolla is well awaare of that16:47
Smaryeah :)16:47
Smarhence, tons of money for bootstrapping would be nice16:47
phlixi_oin order to survive with only (so far not implemented) share of harbour sales, would require A LOT more users (while of course it might be easier to get users without a monthly fee16:49
Hellebtw one of my more hilarious "Why the fuck doesn't Android support this", themes16:49
Hellefor some Reason (capital needed) Google thinks, they know exactly what colours and gradients everyone likes16:49
phlixi_othey probably actually know that :D16:50
Smarphlixi_o: problem with subscription fees is that I can’t see that increasing after initial amount16:50
Hellephlixi_o: given how statistics work, no they don't16:50
Smarlike, enthusiasts, sure, but major amount of users are not enthusiasts16:50
Smarlike, they’re now selling the phones for 199$, if they make 10$ profit from that, that’s one ”monthly fee” donation and one new user...16:51
phlixi_oas mentioned above, thats all due to too small userbase16:51
phlixi_oi guess there are enough users that dont know about sailfish that would love it16:51
Smarnot welcoming people in is not good way to increase userbase :)16:51
phlixi_oat the moment every single user is more or less an enthsiast, because "normal people" dont even havea chance to even accidetially buy a jolla... they go into the shop of a provider, or to the website and buy the phone with a plan16:53
phlixi_o...and there are no jollas neither in the stores nor on the network providers websites16:54
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ggabrielpavi: well, thanks for that... I knew that 50 eur a month was close to impossible. In fairness, the math comes to 41 eur a month, assuming 20k devices16:55
ggabrielso we need 4x more userbase16:55
phlixi_ofor example: http://www.congstar.de/handys/betriebssysteme/firefox-os/ (german provider)16:55
ggabrieland it would be a pretty new business model16:55
phlixi_oggabriel: probably only 10% like to pay, then you are at 410EUR16:56
phlixi_onot that new ggabriel see for example app.net16:56
phlixi_oor as mentioned german email "freemail" providers offer ad free service for a monthly fee16:56
ggabrielI mean new business model for a mobile OS16:58
ggabrielas the other ones are "free"16:58
ggabrielnot as in free beer, as in they come with some hw or something and you don't have to pay; but they they're all closed and updates stop when the provider decides16:59
phlixi_othats the problem, most peolpe think they are free, but they are not free... google: you pay with data, apple: you pay with device16:59
ggabrieland yeah, to me android is as closed as ios/windows :P16:59
chem|stphlixi_o: with device? apple is you pay with data too17:02
phlixi_onot so sure17:02
phlixi_oapple is convincing me far more that they actually sell the phones... compared to google17:03
phlixi_ohowever, they do not let me setup my own private icloud on my own server (then i would be sold pretty much)17:03
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ggabrielios does come with more tools than android (xmpp, caldav, etc.). funnily enough, not as many as sfos ootb17:04
ggabrielstill they want your data though :P17:04
phlixi_oi think it is more plausible that they do a lot of this for the customer, in the end it is way more convinient if they have everything in the cloud for you17:06
chem|stphlixi_o: selling information, statistics, usage patterns - or how do you think marketing works?17:07
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phlixi_oin case of google/facebook they do not sell it, they use it themself for selling their ads17:09
chem|stapple matches you search patterns even without being logged in to any service, using an iphone and safari on a desktop will give you the same results over time17:09
chem|stgoogle just the same17:09
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chem|steven with opt-out and don't track me cookies17:10
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phlixi_odeleting cookies is probably the better "do not track cookie"17:12
chem|stphlixi_o: hehe, nope17:12
chem|stwhat they do works without cookies17:12
chem|stin simple words, pattern analysis17:13
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phlixi_oi know a few tricks you can do to get fingerprints, like combining several things like installed plugins, fonts etc, put in IPs etc... however, i do not think they activly use that for ads, because everytime i delete cookies i get crazy ads17:20
pdanekHelle, phlixi_o, pavi: ggabriel, Smar: There is still hope to receive 10M investor funding in December.17:20
phlixi_owhere as when not, sooner or later the ads corelate with stuff i surft on17:21
phlixi_opdanek do you have other sources than the blogpost?17:21
phlixi_o...btw the same for amazon, where ads obviously are linked to previous visits, but without cookies they are matched to the products you look at... of course i do not know hat they actually do :-)17:22
Smarpdanek: yes, of course :)17:22
phlixi_othere are also funny things for some mobile phone providers in germany where your address includes your phone number, which makes it super easy to track you without any cookie stuff17:24
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ggabrielpdanek: december is tomorrow :P17:24
phlixi_oby the way, just checked, "GMX pro mail" is 2.99eur/month and "Web.de club" 5eur/month17:26
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ggabriela lot more fun to run your own mail server :P17:30
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phlixi_oyes of course17:36
phlixi_obut we where talking about the idea of monthly fees fopr sailfish17:36
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phlixi_oand in the end running your mailserver isnt that easy17:37
phlixi_othat is actually a lot of work17:37
Liekeyeah, mail server configuration is a major pita17:38
ggabrieldepends on a number of things, but ofc not for the normal user17:38
ggabrieli suggest smtpd, config is <50 lines17:38
ggabrielnot that sendmail is hard in a decent distro17:38
sharixSD-Card hotplugging? Sorry to be a bit lazy, haven't tried to fand info elsewhere, but wondered before if the sd-card is supposed to be hot-swappable, hence SailfishOS does mount/ro if no writes winisehd?17:41
ggabrielsharix: nope, you have to umount afaik17:42
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ggabrielso it is hot pluggable if you umount :P17:42
sharixggabriel: at least it's electrical hot-pluggable then :-)17:43
ggabrielyup, not a common use case tbh17:45
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pdanekphlixi_o: no, just the blogpost source17:51
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pdanekWould you guys say that Motorola are probably best Android phones out there?18:15
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dirkvlyeah, motorola makes the best generic rectangle slabs with touchscreen18:16
dirkvllove how the have the 3 capacitive buttons18:16
dirkvland also volume rocker18:16
dirkvluniques design18:16
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raa700=)18:22
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pdanekdirkvl: I don't see any capacitive buttons on Motorola phones18:27
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pdanekthey all have just screen and buttons are in OS18:27
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adherrydidn’t know that freenode can be full19:50
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adherrybtw. how is the current community position to Jolla nearly failscading, more tense or “everything will be good”?19:55
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Nicd-I think there's not enough information to say19:56
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r0kk3rzadherry: the community is powerless in this20:08
r0kk3rznaturally there is a mix of both optimists and pessimists about the news20:08
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nh1402r0kk3rz: how's it going20:14
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Stskeepsflip a coin20:15
adherryhmm, I think I will start being pessimist now20:15
adherry3rd phone crash since yesterday morning20:15
adherryIts all going down !!!!20:15
Stskeepsadherry: total shutdown?20:16
adherryjust restarted20:16
adherryout of the blue20:16
adherryone second I hear music20:16
adherrynext I see Jolla on the display20:16
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pdanekadherry: mine freezes/crashes every 2nd day20:17
adherrymine didnt20:17
adherryuntil yesterday20:17
TemeVclean the battery contacts20:17
pdanekTemeV: not this type of issue20:17
adherryok, will try that20:17
tbrreboot is not battery related usually20:18
TemeVpdanek: it was for adherry :) You issues must be something else20:18
tbrtotal shutdown is often battery contact20:18
TemeVtbr: for me it was mostly reboots, rarely shutdown. And it was about battery20:18
tbrinteresting, first time I hear it that way20:19
pdanekTemeV: it's like everything freezes for maybe 30s and finally phone gives up and reboots, happens quite a lot when using Android apps20:19
Stskeepsyeah, clean the battery contacts20:19
pdanekperhaps memory issue20:19
Stskeepscan manifest in both reboots and shutdonws20:19
tbrgentle abrasive cleaning that can remove 1-2 atom layer oxide layer20:20
M4rtinKno issues since the paper hack20:20
TemeVM4rtinK: don't worry, the papaer will lose its power over time. Then you have to clean the contacts :)20:21
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pdanekDo you guys think Yotaphone will still release dualboot Android/Sailfish phone?20:23
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Stskeepsthat was never official anyway?20:23
pdanekStskeeps: well, the rumor must have started somewhere, right? every rumor has a bit of truth20:24
adherryIn the end ms will buy Jolla do double its market share ;)20:24
Stskeepspdanek: like nokia giving jolla initial investment money, rumour?20:24
Stskeeps:P20:24
pdanekStskeeps: hmmm20:24
Stskeepssometimes rumours appear out of nothing20:24
pdanekAmazon buys Jolla!!!20:25
adherrygod no pls20:25
nh1402Stskeeps: I believe that rumour started from Yahoo, either that or they didn't provide their source for the article20:25
r0kk3rznh1402: good mate, you?20:26
M4rtinKSailfish on iPhone, I tell you! :)20:27
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nh1402I'm alright, the android project has took a backseat since I finally found a role which I've been at for the past month now, and since I'm going to be going on holiday next week actually I won't get a chance to work on it till the new year, or the 27th December at the earliest20:28
r0kk3rzyeah employment has a habit of doing that20:28
mornfallmeh20:29
M4rtinKmo holiday hacking ? ;-)20:29
nh1402The place I'll be going to on holiday will be prehistoric when it comes to an internet connection, absolutely abysmal. Not just internet connection either, many other ways too.20:30
r0kk3rzwell i think the major holdup atm is lack of access to devices20:31
mornfallno electricity, no tap water20:31
adherryyou visit the us?20:31
nh1402tap water yes, electricity - sometimes.20:33
adherrySo you are talking about the South of the USA?20:33
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nh1402wrong side of the world, it was once known as India20:35
r0kk3rzpakistan?20:36
nh1402yes20:36
r0kk3rzyep, prehistoric seems to be the accurate term there20:38
adherryWell, tap water and only electricity when fox news runs, thats how I imagine the life of rednecks20:41
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nh1402r0kk3rz: thank you, if swing by #sailfishos-porters there's a guy who seems to know his stuff about graphics stuff, and providing some incite about our Android in Sailfish concept.20:46
nh1402well a lot more than me anyway (which isn't that hard to do since I know very little in that area)20:48
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pdanekhttps://www.wileyfox.com/swift/22:03
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pdanekStskeeps: How do you like MIUI?23:16
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