#jollamobile log for Sunday, 2015-11-22

« Saturday, 2015-11-21 Index Monday, 2015-11-23 »
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pdanekWhere do you see Jolla in 2 years?01:23
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HtheBpdanek: not01:38
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Aciidpdanek: bankrupt01:55
pdanekSo you think Intex won't sell enough?02:04
Aciidi think it's a joke02:06
Aciidjolla has become a better betrayal than nokia02:06
Aciidgetting russians and chinese involved 5/502:07
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lpotterno, nokia was ultimate betrayal. This is just a hickup in the life of a startup06:30
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locusfyup07:04
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tiwakealright07:32
tiwakeany suggestions for reflashing an N900?07:32
Stskeepsdownload firmware image, flash?07:33
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tiwake:P07:33
tiwakeare contacts stored on the sim card?07:36
Stskeepsnot usually07:37
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tiwakealright08:01
tiwakecontacts backed up :308:01
tiwakenow I just need to reflash it08:02
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ggabrielthanks cehteh locusf and coderus for dd advice12:12
cehtehmorning :D12:12
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cehtehand i'd still use rsync not dd :D12:12
ggabrielcehteh: yeah, I know, I know12:12
ggabrielit's just the faff and also never had issues with btrfs so don't mind copying that over and uuid and whatnot12:13
cehtehoh .. i managed to crash/slow down/ENOMEM btrfs a lot in my hardcore tests on a server12:13
cehtehi do not trust it full and it has a horrible reputation about fragmenting a lot, while defragmenting would wear the flash storage12:14
cehtehit is *somewhat* useable, but i wont stretch it12:14
ggabrielclearly jolla people think the same since the tablet is ext412:15
cehtehwhy not f2fs12:16
ggabrielnever tried that12:16
cehtehi was wondering back in time that jolla choosen btrfs for the phone12:16
ggabrielbut there is a tendency of sticking to the fs's that are more "native"/more tested for the type of *nix12:16
ggabrielbtrfs is the future in linux, apparently12:16
cehtehif it ever does waht it promises it would be really nice, i am eagerly wait for that12:17
cehtehyeah12:17
ggabriel_apparently_ one of the devs of ext4 said kind of that12:17
cehtehbut for now it hasnt my complete trust12:17
ggabrielsame, at least for proper use12:17
cehtehhey on my servers, btrfs raid6 .. just plug in new drive or remove a old drive of almost any size, rebalance, done12:18
cehtehwould be really cool12:18
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cehtehbut as long it has a risk of loosing data, fragments, slowing down .. and no full disk encryption, not there yet12:18
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ggabrielfull disk encryption used to be a planned feature for btrfs12:20
ggabrielbut they descoped it in favour of luke skywalker12:20
ggabrieli mean luks :P12:20
cehtehanyway .. with rsyncing to a prime brtfs, maybe mounted with nocow for the rsync, you'll get some more sane image12:20
cehtehproblem is with raid (btrfs as storage manager), then you have to setup luks on every partiton12:21
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locusfluks is theoretically possible12:22
cehtehwhich woul have some performance impact, for raid 6 for example you have to encrypt 3 times as much data and read/decrypt the blocks from every disk12:22
locusfyou just need a ui to input passphrase12:22
cehtehyou mean for the jolla?12:22
locusfthen add luks modules to kernel initrd12:22
locusfyeah12:22
cehtehah i am speaking about btrfs + encryption12:23
locusfah sorry :)12:23
cehtehi am planning to do something to luks the sd-card12:23
cehtehwould be nice if the unlocking gui from the jolla stores a hash of the lockcode somewhere safely12:24
cehtehthen one can use it to unlock the luks and drop the hash12:24
cehtehwithin the boot process12:24
cehtehi havent digged that deep into the system yet, but the unlocking stuff is closed source or?12:24
ggabrielluks has a perf impact, yes, if your cpu is cool re encryption algorithms, you're generally ok and it only taxes 15-20% on heavy IO12:24
ggabrieli only have luks on the phone for a file12:25
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ggabrielthe rest is non essential really12:25
cehtehluks itself has not that much performance impact12:25
cehtehif you have enough ram and have to crypt the data only once, after that its cached ... fine12:25
ggabrielsurely it should be encrypted in the cache :P12:25
ggabrielotherwise disaster12:25
cehtehbut if you have some multipied luks for each raid drive, then it starts to get ugly12:26
cehtehcache -> pagecache its not encrypted12:26
cehtehyou read from a filesystem, filesystem returns already unencrypted data which eventually gets pagecached12:27
cehtehbut you ought to encrypt your swap!!!12:27
cehtehthat would be the next thing on the jolla12:27
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Milo-Meh, Lassila announced tablet shipments will be halted until further notice. I guess that's the end of that.12:43
ggabriellassila? is that .fi media?12:43
Milo-Juhani Lassila12:43
tbrin helsinkin sanomat12:43
tbrbut that matches the interview saarnio gave to techcrunch12:44
Milo-chief of communications12:44
tbrtablet shipments depend on successful funding round12:44
ggabrielfwiw, I'm expecting it to fail, only luck can help at this stage12:44
Stskeepsa chapter 11 usually means that shit stops, at least for a little bit, to get the dust settling..12:44
tbrhttps://www.reddit.com/r/Jolla/ - first two items12:44
ggabrielchallenge is that financing is not just to finish off with the tablet, but also for future12:46
ggabrielI wonder how much money they're needing for the next 18 months12:46
tbrack12:46
Stskeepsit's at looking like no xmas lunch this year12:46
Stskeeps:P12:46
Stskeeps+least12:46
locusfhttp://www.merproject.org/donations12:47
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locusfto at least keeping the middleware infrastructure alive12:48
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cehtehStskeeps: where you at the linux audio conference in colonge in 2008?12:55
Stskeepsno12:56
Stskeepsnever been to cologne12:56
cehtehok12:56
svuorelathey have famous water there.12:58
cehtehi just met one one thee then nokia guys who worked on pulseaudio, forgot his name, wondered if it was Stskeeps12:59
Stskeepsthere's a couple of those12:59
cehteh(where you even at nokia back the time?)12:59
cehtehyeah sure12:59
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inteso, is jolla merging back into nokia, eventually?13:13
Stskeepswat13:13
inteheared recently they were in financial issues13:13
Stskeepsyeah, but that's a bit of a leap :)13:13
intewell...13:13
inteis there someone else to step in?13:13
tbrStskeeps: you have to admit it would fit previous insanity in the nokia context ;)13:13
svuorelaI'm not sure if it will happen before HEL freezes over13:14
inteI only wonder if they will still ship the tablets, and if not, if my tablet will rather gain worth or be somewhat useless :)13:14
tbrinte: 12:44:48< tbr> https://www.reddit.com/r/Jolla/ - first two items13:14
intewhat is this reddit thing at all?13:15
intei read about that a couple of time but i find it somewhat ugly and useless13:15
svuorelainte: a place where people can meet and circlejerk.13:15
svuorelakind of like irc, but with more web.13:16
intemh13:16
intewell ok i rather use irc then :)13:16
intetablet shipments frozen, eh?13:16
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ggabrielah, only 10mil they need13:18
ggabrielto think that for some people that's an evening in vegas13:19
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inteso, they will rather not ship any more tablet i dare13:20
intehowever will they pay back backers then?13:20
ggabrielnot until successful round13:20
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intei have a friend who paid but didnt get his tablet yet13:21
* cehteh wonders if jolla could be transfered into a cooperative where the community members can buy in :D13:21
ggabriellet's speak frankly: when a company goes bankrupt, customers are the lowest level creditors13:21
inteand, should i keep mine or can i get a nice price on ebay? :)13:21
intewell but in this case its indiegogo who takes care of the money right?13:21
ggabrielerm....13:21
ggabrielno?13:21
Yanielsvuorela: I think Helsinki is frozen already13:22
ggabrieligg charged its commission, job done13:22
intei thought yes13:22
ggabrieligg just put jolla and people together (no multiple puns intended)13:22
intebut if a campaign is not successfull money is usually paid back13:22
ggabrieldo you have a source for that? i don't recall reading that in t&c13:22
ggabrielwho would be crazy enough to insure that anyway13:22
inteisnt that how usually these crowdfunding stuff works?13:23
ggabrielno, it's at risk13:23
intemh13:23
inteok i dont care i have my tablet :)13:23
Yanielno, afaik usually it is all or nothing13:23
ggabrielsuggest you read carefuly before your next crowdsourced investment]13:23
Yanielif the campaign fails, backers get their money back13:23
Yanielwhere failing means not meeting the goal within the time limit13:24
intethen its good i didnt order another phone three days ago when they were offered for 169€13:24
Yanielnot actually delivering the end product13:24
Yaniel*not actually failing to deliver13:24
ggabrielinte: why? I ordered one and I have it13:24
ggabrielthey are still delivering phones13:24
Yanielexcept igg has this flexible funding option13:24
inteoh ok13:24
Yanielwhere the goal does not matter13:24
intecool then i will order a phone as soon as they cost 169€ again!13:25
inte:)13:25
ggabrielinte: they're 199 now13:25
inteor, if someone has a code...13:25
inteyeah too expensive at the moment13:25
ggabrieli can't think of a similar phone at a better price13:25
ggabrielwell, there's no other phone that has tohkbd so...13:25
inteso i could start a campaign for, say, a ferrari like car at indiego, and aim at a price of 25000€ and put the goal at 500000€13:26
inteso when the campaing is successful, i could transfer the money into bitcoins and disappear?13:26
intecrazy13:26
ninnnuYes.13:26
intei was actually thinking about a nexus 5 as well since it could run the plasma mobile beta and im curious how that feels...13:27
ggabrielwell, what Yaniel works with either insurance or igg not releasing the money until you meet the goal13:27
ggabrielpeople speak well of the nexus 5 for some reason13:27
ninnnuWhile that hasn't ever happened (AFAIK), this isn't the first (or last) time a Kickstarter/IGG-project has failed to deliver13:27
ggabrielreally bad call quality, really bad reception13:27
ggabrielbut hey, maybe that's not important13:27
ggabrielninnnu: or any start up for that matter; in fact, most fail13:28
cehtehwhat gone wrong with the tablett anyway, there first batch was shipped and worked somewhat?13:29
cehtehit isnt that it was scam or technologically infeasible13:29
ggabrielwell, we don't know, that's what people are asking jolla to clarify13:29
ggabrielthey probably need some more money than expected13:30
tbrmy guess is that they can't pay their supplier13:30
cehtehdamnit they should be more open, this sux13:30
ggabrieli bet they can't13:30
ggabrielnda's and such13:30
cehtehmeanwhile i really hope jolla will be buyed out by someone with a more open thinking13:30
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cehtehas i saied ,, cant we convince redhat to go into phone business?13:31
ggabrielone of the reasons why funding didn't succeed yet is the stake the investors want, mind13:31
ggabrielcould be the stake*13:31
cehtehyeah imo a wron approach... rally with all the big guys13:31
ggabrielthere's no wrong approach, copmanies need money to run13:32
ggabrielthat's logical13:32
inteprobably they cannot pay their supplier and thats why their supplier started selling the jolla tablet hardware as cheap android version13:32
cehtehyes, but better less but solid than high risk13:32
intei think jolla should have rather come out with a second phone than with a tablet13:33
tbrinte: that would be even harder. certifying a modem is hard13:33
ggabrielphones are hard indeed13:34
intei personally only bought a tablet since i like jolla but havent used it after i opened it and played around with it13:34
cehtehme and a friend ordered phones recently. i got one produced at 1/14 he got one prduced at 1/13 .. few days ago, i bet they have stockpiles of phones manufactured13:34
intetbr: well they neednt sell to us13:34
inteonly europ like for the first one13:34
tbrinte: come again?13:34
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intecertifying a modem to one region is easier than certifiying it to the world13:35
cehtehi wont buy anything from any company just because i like that company13:35
intei guess thats why jolla didnt sell the phone in us13:35
cehtehif the tablet isnt sustainable by its usefulness then its a failure13:35
intewell i thought i could use it for e.g. webbrowsing while watching tv13:35
ggabrielwell, that depends on how much money means to you13:35
ggabrieli did contribute to the tablet because i like the cause13:35
inteturned out i barely watch tv :)13:36
ggabrielinte: lol re tv comment13:36
intehehe :)13:36
inteok need to go sorry daughter is waiting have a nice sunday13:36
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cehtehif I (or we, community) could buy into the company and get something back (being heared and voting which is really acknolweged) i would consider it13:37
cehtehbut just giving them money to play with is somewhat pointless13:37
cehtehthey burned already a lot13:37
ggabrielcehteh: just do the math :)13:37
ggabrieligg raised >2mil13:37
ggabrielthey need 10mil13:37
ggabrielnot enough community13:37
cehtehyes .. thats because they handled the community not well enough13:38
ggabrielnah13:38
ggabrielif there were enough people, investors wouldn't be so picky13:38
cehtehthere are not enough people because they didnt approach the community open enough. I know a lot linux hackers, everyone likes jolla but they didnt buy the phone because they heared so much complaints13:39
ggabrieli bet the main reason was the price13:39
cehtehthey could sell 10 times more phones and have a 10 times biggier community by that if they handled them better13:40
cehtehprice now is really cheap13:40
ggabrieluhm... dd din't work13:40
cehtehok it started a bit on the expensive side, and i wouldnt have buyed it for 400eur13:40
cehtehhaha13:40
cehtehi saied rsync :DDDDD13:41
ggabrielproblem is lock code13:41
ggabrielshould have dd'd without one13:41
ggabrielok, attempt #1 failed13:41
cehtehthe lock code is on a special partition, dunno if that even dongled/encrypted with some hardware id13:41
cehtehi wont touch that, exclude that from any transfers13:42
cehtehset the lockcode on the new device13:42
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ggabrielyeah, will do that13:42
ggabrielit just takes time to do this13:42
ggabrieland i want to go climbing :P13:42
cehteha complete clone might be impossible because IMEI and other hardware id's are different13:43
ggabrielnah, there are RO partitions too13:43
cehtehi bet some ugly things happen when you just copy everything blindly13:43
ggabrielbut lock code was half expected anyway13:43
cehtehyes13:43
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ggabriellock code is stored in at least 2 places13:43
cehtehits hashed, but i dont know how the hashing works13:44
ggabrielor at least the flag is13:44
cehtehi would consider to use the imei as part of the hashing13:44
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cehtehif its truely secure, then this parts should be all documented and open source :D13:44
ggabrielnothing is truly secure13:46
cehtehtruely as in "state of the art" ...13:47
cehtehwell since the data isnt encrypted one could desolder the emmc and read all data13:48
ggabrielaye13:48
ggabrielmy data is not that expensive :P13:48
cehtehwell since the data isnt encrypted one could desolder the emmc and read all data?13:48
cehteherr13:48
cehtehis the usb storage locked when the device is locked13:49
ggabrielthere's no usb storage13:49
cehtehmtp?13:49
cehtehi only set it to 'charge only' so i never tried13:49
ggabrielyes, and that's locked as you can't select usb mode with lock on13:49
cehtehok13:49
cehtehwell 'expensive data' is argueable13:50
ggabrielotoh, most people have their info in google and facebook, password is [name of pet]12313:50
ggabrielso who would solder stuff :P13:50
cehtehif only someone gets onto your email credentials he may for example hack your bank account or redirect amazon shipments or whatever13:50
ggabriel"what do you mean you use different passwords for different websites?" :P13:51
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cehtehor even more you prolly have some other 'password reminders' stored in your email or at least someone can trigger "forgotten password" to your email13:51
cehteheven if they are all different when your email account is compromised a lot of your accounts are toast13:52
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cehtehi would also like to use my phone to log into servers if there is anything, but that needs the phone to be reasonable secure13:57
cehteh(ssh)13:57
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pdanekShould I move to Android or wait?15:37
cos-if author of warehouse is here, the search function is quite broken15:38
cos-search for "sailor" -> no results, "sailorgram" -> finds the app15:38
Hartzibasil is not here15:38
pdanekIf you would have to get Android phone.15:40
pdanekAbsolutely must, no other choice.15:40
pdanekWould it be something with Cyanogen?15:40
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* Stskeeps 'd buy fairphone, since they're good guys.15:41
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pdanekhmm15:42
pdanekStskeeps: What about Puzzlephone?15:42
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Stskeepsdoesn't exist yet15:42
pdanekit will15:43
svuorelapdanek: just like the jolla tablet? :)15:43
pdanekand it seems to have far greater funding15:43
pdanek:D15:43
pdanekJolla tablet must ship15:43
pdaneklegally they must ship it right?15:44
pdanekif not, they would have to call bankrupt15:44
Nicd-bankruptcy is a realistic possibility here I would say15:44
svuorelaisn't that kind of what they have done ?15:44
Nicd-but I don't think they have to ship any indiegogo tablets15:44
Nicd-different for the ones sold from their own store though15:44
pdanekNicd-: Do you really think bankruptcy is real?15:45
Nicd-yes15:45
pdanekWhat about the big plans? Sailfish Secure, russian government using Sailfish etc.?15:45
Nicd-it is the only outcome if they don't get financing15:45
Nicd-so my understanding is that it's up to external forces15:46
Nicd-as for puzzlephone... they haven't even got $100k in over two weeks. sure hope they have some other funding :P15:46
pdanekIsn't Sailfish too valuable for companies out there to let it die?15:46
Nicd-apparently not15:46
pdanekNicd: puzzlephone has millions from some EU funding15:47
Nicd-you have to consider jolla had tens of millions15:47
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cb400fit _has_ to be financially sound to fund Jolla.. at least to sell tablets and until the Intex is released15:50
* cb400f will break down and cry otherwise15:50
cb400fdon't suppose the Intex delay is related to Jolla financial concerns.. but I guess it could be :-|15:52
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Nicd-intex cancelling the whole deal would not surprise me15:54
Nicd-or selling very little with no marketing15:54
Nicd-like the N9 was15:54
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cb400fseems you can't bank on the linux community putting their money where their mouth is.. except a few tens of thousands... apparently the rest are a bunch of mindless, shortsighted, opportunistic crackpots16:01
Stskeepscb400f: even ubuntu touch didn't sell more than what most guessed is 25k16:01
Nicd-cb400f: you can't really say that. sailfish is not a good user experience for many people16:02
Nicd-especially if you think of the US where you are stuck with 2G16:02
Stskeeps(which is why we don't sell it there)16:02
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Nicd-personally I'm a huge fan of jolla and sailfish and it was really hard to deal with all the problems and lack of ecosystem even for me16:04
cb400fso people could buy it as a toy or secondary phone if for some reason it doesn't fulfill their needs initially... clearly if people can't bother to support it, something like this would happen16:06
cb400fonly other smartphone I ever had was the N9, and generally the Jolla has ran circles around the N9 from day one when I bought it in januar 201416:06
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Nicd-many people don't have enough money to just throw it around like that16:06
Nicd-I sure don't16:06
cb400fand now with 2.0 and alien dalvik much improved, it's awesome16:07
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cb400falot of these western european people will burn that kind of money on a friday night out on the town16:07
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cb400f.. or a visit to the supermarket16:08
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cb400fwhen they could support the coolest thing since sliced bread instead16:10
Stskeepsfrom destruction comes creation16:11
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svuorela...how large a kickstarter campain to convince people to opensource silica, lipstick and friends? :)16:11
Stskeepssvuorela: heh, i'm actually not sure16:12
cb400fhopefully Stskeeps has "stolen" the whole thing on a usb stick and is prepared to set up shop on St. Helena16:12
Stskeepscb400f: or on path to doing something even crazier16:13
Stskeeps:P16:13
cb400fI hope that doesn't mean going after investors with an assault rifle ;-)16:15
Nicd-why would you do that?16:15
Nicd-they are the people that already gave their money16:15
Stskeepscb400f: ah, no, i'm not a violent person16:15
Stskeeps:P16:15
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cb400fright, better target the people who sat on their wallets thinking they could have their cake and eat it too... of course they might forever be punished by having to use Android, iOS or Windows Phone16:16
cb400fso I guess they'll get what they deserve16:17
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* cb400f is listening to The Show Must Go On by Queen on Innuendo [Amarok]16:19
svuorelaI guess I should update my secondary jolla while infrastructure is up16:19
* Stskeeps is watching 'the man in the high castle'16:19
Nicd-in harbour, "Estimated hours for approval": N/A :P16:20
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M4rtinKhttp://shop.jolla.com/eu_en/cat-jolla.html18:04
M4rtinK^^ I guess the worries about unsold Jolla1 inventory might have been wrong18:05
M4rtinKat least if the Jolla e-shop is properly linked to the inventory :)18:05
cehtehuhm .. i still have a device return pending here and need to get money back for it18:06
cehtehshall i keep it?18:06
Nicd-M4rtinK: I think they just don't want new orders18:07
Nicd-what with the company being in debt restructuring and all18:07
cehtehi thought they need every cent they can get hold off18:08
M4rtinKyeah, does not make sense to cut-off yet another income source18:08
Nicd-but logistics and shipping and all that cost money18:08
M4rtinKwell18:08
Nicd-possibly more than the few phone sales bring in18:08
cehtehif the phone doesnt generate profit, what else?18:09
M4rtinKI would kinda expect this to be handled by separate company anyway18:09
M4rtinKshouldn't be that expensive to keep running18:09
M4rtinKor even just designating like 2/3 people to handle it18:09
cehtehthey even have all stocked devices in finland ahd ship from there, not from china18:10
cehtehwell .. its possibly all my fault :D ... whenever i buy something with propietary bits it gets down the drain18:11
cehtehn900 ...18:11
cehtehhey even the only apple device i ever buyed ... apple newton was discontinued soon after18:12
cehtehmaybe i should buy an iphone and watch apple going bankrupt :D18:12
pesasacehteh: You should think closely, what you will buy next.18:12
pesasaExactly18:13
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Sfiet_Konstantindamn18:36
Sfiet_Konstantinwanted to buy a new phone18:36
Sfiet_Konstantintoo late :(18:36
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M4rtinKSfiet_Konstantin: well, some say it might just need to be restocked in the e-shop18:39
Sfiet_Konstantinlet's see18:39
Sfiet_Konstantinthey said that buying more jollas will help18:39
Sfiet_Konstantinand anyway, I want a new one18:39
Sfiet_Konstantineven if Jolla might end dissapearing18:39
StskeepsSfiet_Konstantin: it seems like it was effective18:40
Stskeeps:P18:40
Sfiet_KonstantinStskeeps: ?18:40
Stskeepsif we're out of stock, may very well be we're18:40
Stskeeps:P18:40
Sfiet_Konstantin:(18:40
Stskeepslet's see18:40
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cehtehSfiet_Konstantin: i have a new phone here, unopened, delived on friday, should be returned to jolla18:45
M4rtinKcehteh: you can sell it to Sfiet_Konstantin  :)18:46
cehtehyeah18:46
cehtehi just written a email to jolla support, asking about postponing the return18:46
cehtehi fear if i send it back *now* i might not get my money back, then i rather stay with a phone18:46
M4rtinKwhy are you returning it anyway ?18:55
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Moo-Crumpusfor my taste jolla has just treated me. How do you feel???19:26
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StskeepsMoo-Crumpus: sorry, that sentence made no sense?19:26
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Moo-Crumpuscheated me?19:27
Nicd-who cheated you?19:28
Moo-Crumpusselling a tablet and not having it, offering something that you don't have?19:29
jaykithat's crowdfuning :D19:29
StskeepsMoo-Crumpus: first off, look at crowd funding and how it's done, it's not a sale, you contribute something to a cause and select a perk19:29
Moo-Crumpusno, that was their shop.19:30
Moo-Crumpusi did no crowdfunding.19:30
Stskeepsit was never in shop.jolla.com as a loose item, that i am fairly sure of19:30
Stskeepsah, well i might be wrong19:31
* Stskeeps goes back to watching gogol bordello concert19:31
Moo-Crumpusno, it was. still have my ticket.19:31
cehtehpayed for it?19:31
Moo-Crumpusyeah.19:31
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Nicd-Moo-Crumpus: it's not really cheating if they run out of money and go into debt restructuring19:32
Nicd-it would be cheating if they did have money and still did not send it19:32
cehteh.. and make a looooong vacation on hawaii19:33
Moo-Crumpusyes it is. you have somethibg to sell and offer it. ore you have nothing and offer it.19:33
cehtehbut i am pretty sure no one there is happy right now19:33
Stskeepshttp://shop.jolla.com/preorder_shop_en/pre-orders-delivery/19:33
Moo-Crumpusand sell it.19:33
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Nicd-Moo-Crumpus: wasn't it a pre-order?19:34
Nicd-that would mean they don't have it yet19:34
Moo-Crumpusthat would not mean we'll burn your money, so...?19:35
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Nicd-not much they can do about not having any money though19:37
cehtehi think most people are a bit angry with the current situation, the phones are fine, sfos is nice and mostly ok (with few issues) .. they are *almost* there to have a really great product but still didnt made profit and trying to reach for the high hanging fruit and maybe failed19:37
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Moo-Crumpusi think they knew they are burning money. how can they still offer stuff in the shop, while there is no water left to navigate.19:41
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tbrI don't think they knew that the situation would unfold like this19:41
tbralso it's a start-up, they are notoriously short on money19:41
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Moo-Crumpussorry, my jolla just quit :)19:44
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Moo-Crumpusso you are - somehow- sorry but you think those things happen like rain and sunshine.19:46
Nicd-2015-11-22T21:41:44+0200 < tbr> I don't think they knew that the situation would unfold like this19:48
Nicd-2015-11-22T21:41:58+0200 < tbr> also it's a start-up, they are notoriously short on money19:48
Nicd-I agree with tbr, they said they were in the middle of a financing round but it just didn't go through (yet)19:49
Nicd-so back then they assumed it would work out and they would be able to send the tablets normally19:49
Aciiddoesn19:52
Aciidsorry19:52
Aciiddoesn't china mail have something like free airmail for export?19:52
Aciidi'd digg that for mine,19:52
Moo-Crumpusi am doing book keeping for my hometown. we do reports every month. you can see what happens, if not in case of bad luck. but what kind if bad luck should have happened.19:52
Nicd-Moo-Crumpus: how many new hardware products has your hometown launched?19:54
Moo-Crumpuswe do every year, new kindergardens, schools, houses,19:55
Moo-Crumpuscalculate cash flow is no secret.19:55
Nicd-I'd like to order your tablet19:55
Nicd-does it come with your own OS?19:56
HarhaanJohtajawell jolla is a startup that needs money from investors and if the investor do't give money when you need i19:57
Moo-Crumpuspay me. i will tell jolla they shall guve it to you. and even sailfish is not my os, it is jollasm's. and yes, we run our kindergardens with our own is...19:58
HarhaanJohtajait this happens19:58
Moo-Crumpusso they had a plan that failed.19:58
Moo-Crumpusore still have one, god only knows.20:00
Accein god they trust, I hope not20:01
tbrmaybe in the FSM20:01
Moo-Crumpusneither me. fsm?20:02
tbrFlyingSpaghettiMonster20:02
AciidHarhaanJohtaja: jolla has both chinese and russian investors and it also has some Tekes money.20:02
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Aciidif these instruments cant fund jolla anymore then it's a game over20:02
tbrjolla has been holding on to most of their controling shares for quite long20:03
Moo-Crumpusyes, gambling is over20:03
tbrso they probably still have something to offer investors, the question is what the valuation will be20:03
Moo-Crumpusthe question is, will it fit my needs and wishes. i am in doubt.20:04
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tbrYou are a mere creditor, as you have given jolla money and not received something in return20:05
tbrif jolla should enter liquidation you can make your claim and try to get your money back20:06
Stskeepstbr: i think that applies to 'chapter 11' too though20:06
Moo-Crumpusdoes not help me in any way, i will be one of many creditors and will get 0,001% back20:07
tbrStskeeps: that's misleeding "chapter 11" refers to US law, which jolla is not subject to20:07
Stskeepstbr: yes20:07
Stskeepstbr: i don't want to use the finnish word as i can't spell it20:07
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Moo-Crumpus:)20:07
AciidI love how all the foreigners are rambling about class action lawsuits against jolla20:07
tbrStskeeps: the word you are looking for is debt restructuring20:07
Stskeepsok, debt restructuring20:07
Stskeepsyes20:07
tbrAciid: most of them probably haven't realized, that they gave money to jolla hong kong, not jolla finland20:08
Aciidjolla can just pull the plug and go bankrupcy if they feel like shit will go down. theres no cash to be paid anyways20:08
tbrwhich would be another fun twist20:08
Moo-Crumpushaircutt?20:08
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Moo-Crumpusi have to leave. thank you for cure of souls. allways have good wind out there.20:11
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cehtehon the phone, the first 4 apps in the list are fast-starter which are visible when no tasks are displayed on sfos2 ... can you make this list permanent? didnt the older sfos did it that way?20:21
Nicd-it did and no you can't (without patches)20:22
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Nicd-dunno if there is a patch for it20:22
ortylpStskeeps: I just got the news about restructuring at Jolla. Thanks for all the ideas and work you have done for the project. I hope you will find some spare time to follow and inspire the community at whatever is going to happen with maemo/meego/mer+sailfish ;)20:22
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Stskeepsortylp: well, besides all the chaos i'm also my own master, or at least soon20:23
Stskeeps:P20:23
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ShaggyInchi20:23
ShaggyIncis it possible to switch my jolla to Nemo or Plasma Active, now that Jolla ltd. is in debt?20:24
cos-is nemo in any kind of usable state yet?20:29
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pdanekStskeeps: why you will be soon your own mater?20:29
Stskeepspdanek: own company :)20:30
Aciidconsulting is the best that a man can get20:32
Aciidexcept for gilette blades ofcause20:32
Stskeepsmeh, just grow a beard20:32
Stskeeps:P20:32
pdanekStskeeps: so even you're losing hope?20:32
Stskeepspdanek: nah, this is a move i've been planning for a long time, had to do it now due to accounting reasons20:33
pdanekStskeeps: are you contractor in Jolla now?20:33
ShaggyInccos-: I'd be fine with knowing I could switch to any alternative os by the time jolla shuts down (if ever). All nemo&plasma active stuff I've seen is for the N9*20:34
Stskeepspdanek: well, soon20:34
pdanekah right20:34
pdanekShaggyInc: not much out there yet, Tizen has low end devices so far, but high-end devices are coming... Ubuntu Touch is alright, but lacks Android support, KDE Plasma Mobile the same and very buggy...20:35
pdanekSailfish is most usable out of alternative Linuxes out there20:35
cos-ShaggyInc: i don't think it would be easy. also the phone is old hw so i don't think there is much interest in working on it.20:36
pdanekSo at this moment, if I have to switch, it would probably be Android phone with Cyanogenmod or something20:36
pdanekAndroid has one big advantage over Sailfish20:36
pdanekyou can make it relatively secure in comparison to Sailfish20:36
* kimmoli secures himself between sheets. gn.20:37
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ShaggyInccos-: but its newer than the N9*...20:56
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paviI still have hopes on jolla for its  limited resources, it did try a lot and even achieve a lot. OTH , sailfish ports on other hardwares,angry birds launcher:P20:58
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SkyFallHello~21:26
Stskeepshello helo21:26
SkyFallDunno if jolla ships to whole Europe or just selected countries. Would like to order it to Poland.21:27
StskeepsSkyFall: i think the device is currently out of stock at the site but normally it ships to whole EU21:27
Stskeeps+norway and switzerland21:27
SkyFallOkay. Now I need to think if I prefer exploring sailfish os or buying motorola's smartwatch... that's hard ><21:28
Stskeepsat least the sony smartwatch sw3 is quite hackable21:28
Stskeeps:P21:28
cehtehif smartwatch i woulg go for pebble21:28
cehtehbut i dont like wristwatches21:29
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SkyFallWould buy Moto 360, it is quite nice.... buuuut closed comm stack, not hackable :P21:30
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Nicd-SkyFall: you should know Jolla is currently in debt restructuring21:32
SkyFallBut... well... probably going to buy jolla, don't want to mess with porting SFOS to my Z2 unless I get backup phone.21:32
SkyFallNicd- I'm currently not well informed about jolla and sailfish, so forgive me this.21:33
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Nicd-SkyFall: the company has currently run out of money and is trying to restructure to settle its debts. it is also seeking external financing to be able to continue operations21:34
Nicd-you may want to take this into consideration as the future is currently unclear21:35
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SkyFallMeh. Hope they don't close.. that would be huge loss to me.21:35
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* Stskeeps hums along to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWTFG3J1CP821:41
StskeepsSkyFall: where in poland, out of curiousity?21:41
SkyFallPłock21:42
Stskeepsah, warsaw here21:42
SkyFallThat's near :321:43
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cehtehSkyFall: btw, i got a 2nd jlla phone shipped on friday i dont need and wanted to return, but with the "out of stock" and debt restructuring i may reconsider sending it back, maybe i can sell it somehow else, ask me next days when you are still interested21:47
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cehtehunopened package21:47
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SkyFallUnfortunatelly don't have enough money atm... so bad jolla ran out of money, hope they come back quickly :<21:48
cehtehi hope so too21:48
SkyFallWhere did they post that info? on blog there is nothing about it21:48
StskeepsSkyFall: https://cdn.jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/Jolla_press_release_20112015_FINAL_61.pdf21:49
Stskeepsshould be november 20, wonder why the CDN is acting up again21:49
SkyFallBTW, do you know TOHKBD is still produced? Asking from curiousity.21:51
cehtehnope21:51
ced117oh, so there is really no more stock in the jolla shop :o21:52
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paviTJC really has some pissed off tablet backers. Hope they get tablets soon atleast for the sake of Jollas reputation and trust21:53
M4rtinKyeah, while I think many community members would not mind loosing their tablet pledge21:55
M4rtinKI'm really afraid about the fallout from the remaining 10000 possibly quite angry people21:56
SkyFallIt is kind of surprising they had so much money from that tablet founding and now they run into debts.21:56
M4rtinKits not that much21:56
M4rtinKat least compared to Jolla-the-company budget estimates21:56
HarhaanJohtajait is something like 2-3 months of costs21:56
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M4rtinKat most21:56
paviSkyFall: It depends on if the money for tablet is used only for tablet. These are all internal issues we would never know about21:56
M4rtinKalso there is the issue of future software maintenance21:58
M4rtinKif for example the tablets were shipped but the company went under21:58
SkyFallLosing jolla would suck anyway, if they fall, I will probably have no alternative to android.21:59
M4rtinKfor that reason I hope things to eventually turn for the better, even if it might cause substantial delays21:59
tiwakeM4rtinK: jolla and AMD22:02
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paviSkyFall: Dont worry much , I am pretty sure sailfish os will be a success in Intex India release22:02
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paviBut they should release it fast . Before the market is gone and every person has already a smart phone and ntex would be an addon22:03
tiwakeM4rtinK: I really don't want to see either die, for the sake of keeping my data as my own22:03
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paviAs of now not every one has a smart phone in India and they are just getting money to buy one. So Intex has a chance22:03
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tiwakedid Intex launch their sailfishOS based phone yet?22:04
ced117nop22:04
tiwakewhen?22:05
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ced117good question22:05
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tiwakethe download links seem to be broken... http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Development_Environment/Maemo_Flasher-3.522:41
pavitiwake: As of now we dont hear anything from Jolla but the blog reqiev site says early 2016 http://reviewjolla.blogspot.de/2015/10/news-sailfish-india-launch-set-to-2016.html22:42
pavi*review22:42
paviI really loved the BRICS idea , the sad thing is even before we got a device out we have this debt restructuring issue and tablet mess !22:43
paviActually Intex was supposed to launch by nov or dec the last quarter of 2015 , Is the delay from Jolla or Intex , no one knows ??22:44
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tiwakehttp://tablets-dev.nokia.com/ is down22:47
tiwakeherm22:47
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paviNokia and its URL's :P Remember all maemo , meego and lastly Qt URL went broke :D22:48
tiwakeI know22:48
tiwakethat does not change the fact that I have to reflash my N90022:48
tiwakenot sure where to get what I need to do that22:50
pavitiwake: I have an N900 with battery going broke , no way to charge it thanks to the USB issue and also the famous sim not being recognised. Dunno what to do with it.22:50
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tiwakepavi: donno... mine seems to work fine, hardware wise22:52
pavitiwake: you might be the few lucky ones, be careful with the USB though22:52
tiwakeI have been ;)22:52
tiwakehttp://maemo-flasher.software.informer.com/3.5/22:53
tiwakehmm22:54
Lieke_tiwake: i found this http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1427962&postcount=2522:54
pavitiwake: so you are running Nemo on it ? How is it ? able to run any of these sailfish os apps on it ?22:54
tiwakeLieke_: ooo thanks, will sift through that22:54
tiwakepavi: donno what nemo is, and I havent installed any programs on it in a couple years (one of the reasons why I need to reflash it)22:55
pavitiwake: Nemo runs on N900 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rp32sOiNNQ22:56
paviNemo is a full fledged OS which is open source and has MER as its base. Sailfishos also has mer as its base  https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo22:58
tiwakeenh22:58
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tiwakewhat happened was I installed the dev build http://wiki.maemo.org/CSSU23:00
tiwakebut had some early software sources being used for some programs23:00
tiwakeit kinda borked some things, but made other things work better23:01
tiwakeso gonna reflash and try again, only with stable :P23:02
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pavitiwake: the last I knew which was 2 years back CSSU wasnt so recommended as the devs moved on to jolla or cyanogenmod23:05
tiwakeand nemo is more suggested?23:07
tiwakeor a new phone? heh23:07
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pavinemo runs kind of ok but wont replace maemo23:09
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tiwakethen it won't do me any good23:10
paviyou can try it out23:10
tiwakedon't have an internal memory card23:11
tiwakenor does my maemo work very well anymore23:11
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paviask in #maemo there are still people there23:12
tiwakejust gonna reflash maemo for now23:13
tiwakemaybe get my cellphone more usable for a while longer23:14
tiwakeuntil I can buy a more modern sailfishOS based phone23:14
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pavitiwake: come to channel #maemo , you can ask some interesting ppl there ;)23:16
tiwakepff, fine23:17
tiwakelol23:17
pavitiwake: also that channel is awake unlike this one :P23:17
pdanekguys23:20
pdanekI need Sailfish to be big!23:20
pdanekSailfish phones everywhere23:20
pdanekapps everywhere23:20
pdanekwhat should I do23:20
phlixi_buy jolla23:21
phlixi_(the company)23:21
phlixi_or two jollas23:22
phlixi_(well, you guessed it, ttwo companies)23:22
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pavipdanek: as of now wait();23:30
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