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| SHIHUA | morning everyone | 00:18 |
|---|---|---|
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| Morpog | hello, is it normal that alien-dalvik in jolla tablet is in english? | 05:08 |
| Morpog | I tried to change the build prop, but after a restart of alien dalvik it gets replaced with default | 05:09 |
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| Morpog | OK, done as root, now it sticks and it's in german finally :D | 05:44 |
| Stskeeps | file together.* issue if not already there | 05:44 |
| Stskeeps | meanwhile: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/676993694/solu-a-new-breed-of-computing | 05:44 |
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| Morpog | Stskeeps: I would, but I cannot sign in into together | 05:48 |
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| tbr | anyone got their invitation since yesterday? | 06:10 |
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| stephg | Stskeeps: briefly looked at that this morning; much concern about the cloud aspect... | 07:04 |
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| chem|st | stephg: +1 no way I trust any company at that level | 08:45 |
| chem|st | nice device, but without a sane detached private cloud solution (preferably open too) absolute no go | 08:46 |
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| Nitial | they say "SoluOS is cloud agnostic. You can keep your documents in whatever cloud you want to, even in your own private cloud." | 08:49 |
| chem|st | Nitial: I am about the operating system | 08:50 |
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| chem|st | the whole infra needs to be on 'my' servers | 08:51 |
| chem|st | colaborative working may aim at companies, anything bigger than a couple of 100 employees does usually not allow stuff like that "for a sane reason" | 08:52 |
| chem|st | and my linux infra does not come with a subscription | 08:56 |
| Temppu-Teme | i kind of like the idea and people do such things, but can't really see how that can work with a team of 13 people :/ | 08:57 |
| Stskeeps | Temppu-Teme: meh, they said you couldn't do a OS with 100 people | 08:57 |
| Temppu-Teme | i am under the impression they are making an OS, hardware design, an app ecosystem for said OS _and_ a cloud infra to back all that up | 08:58 |
| Stskeeps | Temppu-Teme: yeah, i can say that with experience it's not the easiest thing in the world | 08:58 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 08:58 |
| Temppu-Teme | :D | 08:58 |
| ar | btw, is it just me, or does the terminal on tablet feel a bit slow? | 08:59 |
| Stskeeps | ar: more pixels ? | 08:59 |
| Stskeeps | ar: you got the tablet? | 08:59 |
| ar | Stskeeps: yup, 64G version. | 08:59 |
| Stskeeps | ar: awesome, first one in poland, besides my lab ones? | 08:59 |
| ar | Stskeeps: dunno. i don't know anyone else from poland who did order it | 09:00 |
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| Temppu-Teme | it would be nice to know if SoluOS can run pretty much any Linux software or what the deal there is | 09:00 |
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| chem|st | ar: everything feels slow | 09:00 |
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| Temppu-Teme | because people will require all sorts of fancy software to work on it before it becomes useful, that's even harder on desktop than mobile IMO | 09:01 |
| ar | chem|st: not sure about that one | 09:01 |
| stephg | chem|st: yeah definitely | 09:02 |
| chem|st | it looks very much like the idea of thinclients but with own storage and therefore the whole thing feels so Apple "Look we did something completely new!" | 09:02 |
| Temppu-Teme | but this is not thinclient at all since it works offline too | 09:02 |
| chem|st | ar: compared to the phone, the tablet feels like having a bad day | 09:02 |
| chem|st | Temppu-Teme: you can run stuff on a thinclient too you know | 09:03 |
| Stskeeps | ar: fingerterm uses old ui engine stuff so with 2K pixels.. | 09:03 |
| chem|st | add a harddrive and off you go | 09:03 |
| ar | Stskeeps: anything else uses the old ui engine? | 09:03 |
| Stskeeps | ar: not to my knowledge | 09:03 |
| Temppu-Teme | i assume this will run anything, it's just not cloudsynced at the time | 09:03 |
| chem|st | Temppu-Teme: so it is a thinclient with offline capabilities | 09:04 |
| ar | Stskeeps: btw, any reason why btrfs isn't used on the tablet? has anyone actually experienced data loss on the phone? | 09:04 |
| Stskeeps | ar: oh yes. | 09:04 |
| Temppu-Teme | hmm, maybe we have different definitions of thinclients :P | 09:04 |
| Stskeeps | ar: lvm+ext4 is far saner so far | 09:04 |
| ar | Stskeeps: well, it makes life a bit easier for me, as i intend to shrink the home partition and install gentoo ;) | 09:05 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 09:05 |
| Stskeeps | i'm working on the gpl dump for the device | 09:05 |
| pp_ | I'd guess btrfs would be ok if you weren't stuck with android-compatible kernels :P | 09:05 |
| Stskeeps | should make other-OS activities better | 09:05 |
| Temppu-Teme | my impression from skimming the kickstarter page is that no processing is done in the cloud (which to me is the definition of thin clients) | 09:06 |
| chem|st | Temppu-Teme: just for a second, try to empathize... what is the real difference between Solu and a current thinclient? Now look at a mobilephone and a smartphone, now extrapolate to SmartThinClient | 09:06 |
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| SHIHUA | —。— | 09:09 |
| Temppu-Teme | well the real difference is what i said above, where does processing take place.. i got the impression that Solu only uses cloud as storage | 09:09 |
| SHIHUA | who had have tablet? | 09:09 |
| chem|st | Temppu-Teme: take the processing out of your thinking | 09:09 |
| chem|st | Temppu-Teme: all software is in the cloud | 09:10 |
| Temppu-Teme | hmm | 09:10 |
| Temppu-Teme | how can you run it locally then? :D | 09:10 |
| Temppu-Teme | btw i am not saying you're wrong | 09:10 |
| chem|st | and the idea of having both, offline and online processing was whitepapered years ago | 09:10 |
| Temppu-Teme | soo... when you are offline you are running local copies and when online you are using them in the cloud? O_o | 09:11 |
| chem|st | Temppu-Teme: you have 32gb internal storage, you can probably tell what you want to have available offline | 09:11 |
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| SHIHUA | how to buy it in China.@.& | 09:12 |
| SHIHUA | @.@ | 09:12 |
| chem|st | Temppu-Teme: what Solu does I do not know (yet) but the idea was to have local copies for offline usage but when online you only get the videofeed from servers | 09:12 |
| Temppu-Teme | ok, that makes sense | 09:13 |
| Temppu-Teme | i fear this device will be too complicated for a software engineer to use ;) | 09:13 |
| chem|st | SHIHUA: for now there is no public availability and china indiegogo do not get delivered | 09:13 |
| SHIHUA | chem|st: OMG,thanks,just wait | 09:14 |
| chem|st | Temppu-Teme: that was from the whitepaper about intelligent cloud computing with offline capability | 09:14 |
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| chem|st | SHIHUA: yes, just wait, I guess Jolla will make it available early next year | 09:15 |
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| SHIHUA | chem|st: hope this.=.= | 09:16 |
| SHIHUA | buy this phone in Finland but it make in China. | 09:16 |
| chem|st | Temppu-Teme: so while the Solu hardware is pretty impressive, I run software that hits our hardware limits for desktop computing | 09:16 |
| SHIHUA | kidding me.>.< | 09:17 |
| chem|st | SHIHUA: they ship from HK | 09:17 |
| chem|st | SHIHUA: 98% of hardware is mad in asia | 09:17 |
| SHIHUA | chem|st: made in China on the box. | 09:18 |
| SHIHUA | where tablet ? | 09:18 |
| SHIHUA | Finland? | 09:19 |
| chem|st | Temppu-Teme: so I'd actually love a system that is capable to source online processing when it needs it, the box is 90% idle but 10% 40GB RAM, 16 cores at 95% and an Nvida Quadro screaming | 09:19 |
| chem|st | SHIHUA: all hardware | 09:19 |
| SHIHUA | chem|st: ai,but I bought Nokia N1.Jolla is too later. | 09:21 |
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| SHIHUA | Finland is very very beautiful. m | 09:25 |
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| SHIHUA | want to go very much. | 09:26 |
| SHIHUA | but it's cold | 09:26 |
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| Nicd- | go to norway instead | 09:38 |
| Nicd- | it's much better | 09:38 |
| Scelt | haha, so Finnish | 09:38 |
| Scelt | "don't come here. go somewhere else." | 09:38 |
| SHIHUA | @.@ | 09:40 |
| Nicd- | well Finland does look pretty dull if you compare to our western neighbours | 09:40 |
| Tofe | Nicd-: if you like lakes and trees, there's no match for Finland | 09:40 |
| Scelt | Nicd-: for you yes | 09:40 |
| Scelt | you've been watching these views for decades | 09:40 |
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| SHIHUA | just want try food | 09:41 |
| Tofe | Nicd-: I will come to Turku this winter *willingly* ! | 09:41 |
| Nicd- | Tofe: norway has more lakes and all of these countries have plenty of trees | 09:42 |
| Nicd- | Tofe: Turku of all places :| | 09:42 |
| SHIHUA | work in Finland | 09:44 |
| SHIHUA | it's very nice | 09:45 |
| Scelt | everything is nice here | 09:45 |
| SHIHUA | isn't it? | 09:45 |
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| SHIHUA | hah. | 09:46 |
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| SHIHUA | maybe will go | 09:46 |
| SHIHUA | there | 09:46 |
| SHIHUA | next year? next ten years?haha | 09:47 |
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| chem|st | https://together.jolla.com/question/115350/back-to-android-for-now/ sounds like a TJC summary without reading TJC for the parts that are actually answered and beware RTFM -.- | 10:58 |
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| Nicd- | it's funny that they complain about textsecure not working when there is a working version in the store | 11:01 |
| Sidde | really would like to have the full textsecure features without google services... | 11:03 |
| Yaniel | so much misinformation in this post | 11:04 |
| Stskeeps | ironic textsecure requires google service.. | 11:04 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:04 |
| Sidde | and you also need to trust moxie | 11:04 |
| Sidde | but he's a sailor, so it should be trust by default ;) | 11:05 |
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| Stskeeps | who? | 11:05 |
| Sidde | Moxie, the man behind textsecure | 11:05 |
| Stskeeps | ok, just got confused since sailor usually means for us == jolla employee | 11:05 |
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| Sidde | i'm a sailor, a skipper and an owner of 2 boats | 11:06 |
| Sidde | ;) | 11:06 |
| Sidde | but i'm working for a swedish government agency and not jolla | 11:06 |
| Sidde | ;) | 11:06 |
| Nicd- | ;) ;) ;) ;) | 11:08 |
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| twaapo_ | more ambiguity is always fun | 11:14 |
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| nh1402 | coderus: any ideas how one would simulate a near-ir image with a grayscale image and a change in contrast? | 11:33 |
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| nh1402 | since iris recog works best with an near-ir camera, simulating such an image with a standard camera could/should improve the detail in the iris for better recognition. | 11:36 |
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| fennekki | humm, I reckon the reason it works best with near-ir is, the reflective properties of the iris in near-ir are different from the visible spectrum, so I doubt you can really simulate that unless you can extract the same information from the colour channels | 11:38 |
| fennekki | ...in which case near-IR wouldn't have it work better after all | 11:39 |
| Helle | nope | 11:39 |
| Helle | in near IR the iris is way more reflective then anything else on the human body | 11:40 |
| Helle | so you compare a NIR and a visual light image and get a perfect match | 11:40 |
| Helle | or if you only have NIR, you need to do some more complex filtering | 11:40 |
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| nh1402 | http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/lo_pans/mtreyn.htm | 11:48 |
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| nh1402 | with some editting it could look even more similar | 11:49 |
| nh1402 | with some testing with say two webcams one with the ir filter (for normal visible light pictures) and one without, might be able to create an algorithm to simulate such an image. | 11:53 |
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| Helle | but why would you simulate it | 11:55 |
| coderus | nh1402: why asking me? | 11:56 |
| fennekki | Helle: I specifically meant the iris has different reflective properties in near-IR as opposed to colour, ie. it being more reflective | 11:56 |
| fennekki | well | 11:56 |
| fennekki | it's probably an ir emitter too | 11:56 |
| Helle | not in the NIR | 11:56 |
| fennekki | mm | 11:57 |
| nh1402 | I don't know, maybe you have a near-ir camera lying around | 11:57 |
| fennekki | yes | 11:57 |
| fennekki | eyes suddenly turning very hot might be an issue, I suppose | 11:57 |
| Helle | I do, modified webcam with the NIR filter replaced with a NIR passband filter | 11:57 |
| Helle | s/passband/bandpass/ | 11:57 |
| Helle | (dichroic) | 11:57 |
| nh1402 | Helle: I have no idea what that means ;) | 11:57 |
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| Helle | well, then please stop trying to "simulate" NIR and just grab an algorithm for iris recognition designed for the visible spectrum | 11:59 |
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| fennekki | ^ | 11:59 |
| fennekki | if it were possible to effectively simulate a NIR image based on a full-colour one you could just use a colour camera for the same job instead of doing NIR | 12:00 |
| Helle | fennekki: well, basically it could be useful to remove the NIR sensor and not install a bandpass for it, but then you have NIR information mixed in with regular visual spectrum information and where and how depends a lot on the exact composition of the bayer mask, so you'd have to reverse engineer that and other mess | 12:01 |
| nh1402 | Helle: I just want to make sure that once I dive into iris recognition algorithms it is as accurate as it can be. | 12:01 |
| Helle | nh1402: well, this is a great way to get no result whatsoever, the NIR reflection is not miorrored in the visual | 12:02 |
| nh1402 | fine, I'll stick with the visual spectrum. | 12:02 |
| Helle | as said, you could, if you can strip out the filter and have a known bayer mask you can calibrate against, but it's still a bloody mess | 12:03 |
| Helle | because you are doing statistical analysis then of the chance that part of what you see is caused by NIR vs visual light and none of the algorithms are designed to inherently deal with that mess | 12:04 |
| Helle | (I've done some work on iris tracking to track eye movement in general, but you can see what the iris recognition stuff does in the images we use) | 12:05 |
| Helle | (also check into the latest results, that indicate that the iris may change too much for it to be useful without so much fuzz that it becomes exploitable | 12:06 |
| Helle | fingerprints suffer the same problems) | 12:06 |
| nh1402 | how accurate can gaze tracking be with a single camera? | 12:06 |
| Helle | nh1402: if you calibrate it, quite, the eye/nose triangle that we use for that is fixed on people for our purposes | 12:06 |
| Helle | so we just track the triangle as a fixed size feature | 12:07 |
| the_mgt | nh1402: we do gazetracking here for science. with a camera fixed to your head pretty good | 12:08 |
| Helle | the_mgt: yep, that is another option, or just good old quad camera setups (dual optical, dual NIR) | 12:09 |
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| the_mgt | you also need a second camera that films your POV, though. also some markers in the scenerey you are looking at help | 12:09 |
| nh1402 | what if its far away (by those standards), about the distance one would hold a phone. | 12:09 |
| Helle | the_mgt: the reason we tried this method is that you can just do it by hanging a single webcam on a laptop, much more "portable", sometimes a valuable property | 12:10 |
| the_mgt | Helle: do you do it "live"? | 12:10 |
| the_mgt | we record the stuff and most of the time there is lots of post preocessing | 12:10 |
| the_mgt | filtering out the blinks, checking if the headmounted thing moved, etc etc | 12:11 |
| nh1402 | so I'm guessing gaze tracking from a phone wouldn't work. | 12:11 |
| Helle | the_mgt: it runs live in our case, you can see the result live on a second monitor | 12:11 |
| nh1402 | maybe the kindle fire phone, seeing as it has 4 front facing cameras. | 12:11 |
| Helle | although it also records it | 12:12 |
| the_mgt | Helle: and how much processing power is used? | 12:12 |
| Helle | the_mgt: too much to be fair | 12:12 |
| Helle | the_mgt: the laptop it's normally used with is a high end gaming "laptop" | 12:12 |
| the_mgt | thought so. we had a headmounted system once that ran on a dos computer, it used ir diodes on a screen and you could use it in real time. but the hardware was buttugly and huge | 12:13 |
| Helle | the_mgt: yeah, the "portable" here is mostly, it all fits into a suitcase (including second monitor and second control laptop) and can be setup in 15 minutes | 12:14 |
| the_mgt | iirc, samsung has "eye control" on some devices, but a friend of mine who used it said it was to shabby | 12:14 |
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| Helle | the_mgt: not so much "it's a little Apple Air and you are ready to go" | 12:15 |
| the_mgt | that's probably the reason why such systems are not yet mainstream | 12:15 |
| Helle | I was just involved in testing out a few of the algorithms and modes for it | 12:16 |
| Helle | so I don't even know how good the performance is in practice, the stuff I did ran offline | 12:17 |
| the_mgt | for what purposes do you use it? | 12:21 |
| taaem | seriously i wonder how solumachines want to make hardware, an OS and an Eco-System with 13 people... Even Jolla are 100 and they struggle with manpower | 12:22 |
| coderus | nh1402: i'm not doing hw stuff | 12:24 |
| Helle | the_mgt: I think it ended up being used by the university UI and usability research for just general testing | 12:24 |
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| the_mgt | Helle: we use it for testing car assistance systems and general driver behavior in a driving simulator | 12:27 |
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| Helle | the_mgt: ah, yeah, then making it head mounted makes sense | 12:27 |
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| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: what do you think about this solu contraption? have you seen it? | 17:48 |
| r0kk3rz | the interface they've come up with is a bit science fiction really | 17:48 |
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| nh1402 | r0kk3rz: what happens when its offline | 17:49 |
| Yaniel | it works locally | 17:49 |
| r0kk3rz | who knows! | 17:49 |
| Yaniel | 32gb storage is for a reason | 17:50 |
| r0kk3rz | surely they can fit more than 32gb in the thing | 17:50 |
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| r0kk3rz | their business model is a little bit chicken and egg though | 17:51 |
| r0kk3rz | for early adopters they'll be paying monthly for no software | 17:51 |
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| nh1402 | I mean sure there needs to be something to handle the hardware, but its a cloud based OS like chrome OS. | 18:02 |
| Stskeeps | r0kk3rz: i prefer something tied to myself that represents my digital self and through that all my data is encrypted and stored in any location i please | 18:03 |
| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: yeah the whole 'cloud first' thing leaves a bit to be desired really, but there are a few interesting ish concepts on display | 18:03 |
| Stskeeps | i believe in 'me first' | 18:05 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 18:05 |
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| the_mgt | I wonder why it needs new hardware. basically it is some kind of evernote/googledocs/yourpreferedcollaborationsoftware on steroids | 18:09 |
| the_mgt | just write an app | 18:09 |
| r0kk3rz | since it runs android, im surprised they arent pushing that it can run android apps | 18:09 |
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| r0kk3rz | and let developers push their android apps onto the subscription | 18:10 |
| Stskeeps | but anyway | 18:10 |
| Stskeeps | i'm happy to see brave people | 18:10 |
| the_mgt | it does? wasnt there yet another startup last year with some mintish phone? they were the first ones to invent a pure cloud based os approach(tm) | 18:10 |
| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: yeah good luck to them, they're going to need it | 18:11 |
| the_mgt | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nextbit/robin-the-smarter-smartphone | 18:12 |
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| the_mgt | that Solu thing looks way better though | 18:13 |
| r0kk3rz | obviously the whole touchscreen thing is passe, they needed to build in a leapmotion or something for extra scifi | 18:13 |
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| r0kk3rz | looks like syncthing works out-of-the-box on jolla | 18:41 |
| r0kk3rz | although the browser doesnt like the webclient so much, weird graphical errors | 18:41 |
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| r0kk3rz | inotified photo syncing works well, will be great for when the tablet arrives | 20:24 |
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| kimmoli | hmm | 20:34 |
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| r0kk3rz | http://trobla.com/ | 20:50 |
| r0kk3rz | wood is the new black it would seem | 20:50 |
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| Iltsu | Hi! Any ideas how to update from Sailfish 1.0.0.5 to newer version? Store doesn't work :| | 21:38 |
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| Nicd- | Iltsu: create jolla account, go to settings, upgrade. don't touch anything else | 21:39 |
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| Iltsu | already tried, not working | 21:41 |
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| Iltsu | I try factory reset once again and try again | 21:44 |
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| r0kk3rz | Iltsu: make sure you add jolla account in the out-of-box setup | 21:56 |
| r0kk3rz | then upgrade | 21:56 |
| Iltsu | yea, seems to work | 22:04 |
| Iltsu | thanks | 22:04 |
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| Elleo | . | 22:42 |
| Elleo | oops | 22:42 |
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