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| mariod | back | 00:06 |
|---|---|---|
| mariod | wait a moment ... what are you saying there about "buying" ... i'm sorry but i need some free tool :) | 00:07 |
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| mariod | brb | 00:46 |
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| Ezko | does anyone else have problems with their phone showing in devices on windows after plugging a usb cable in | 08:56 |
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| Joonaa | showing or not showing? | 09:03 |
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| Ezko | not showing | 09:21 |
| tbr | what's your USB mode? | 09:22 |
| tbr | have you tried with a different cable? | 09:22 |
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| Ezko | now it started working immediately when i kept the cable connected to the phone and replugged it in the computer | 09:24 |
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| chem|st | hmm one more video and I understand the move to the statusbar even less... on the phone it seems that it is barely visible in apps so where is the point when I have to peek anyway? New users will be disoriented by such stuff..."where is my statusbar gone" | 09:28 |
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| chem|st | Ezko: win7 had me make 3 attempts... | 09:29 |
| Yaniel | wait there is a statusbar now? | 09:29 |
| chem|st | in any plugging combo | 09:29 |
| chem|st | Yaniel: sfos2 | 09:29 |
| Ezko | yeah i'm running windows 7 aswell | 09:29 |
| chem|st | and some other stupid things! | 09:30 |
| politie | chem|st on phone to? | 09:31 |
| chem|st | Yaniel: buttons, statusbar, launcher replaces events-view, 3pane home with partnerscreen - home - events | 09:31 |
| Yaniel | ehh | 09:31 |
| chem|st | politie: MWC demos show both the same but phone has no landscape home | 09:31 |
| tadzik | well, launcher replaces events-view geographically, events-view is not going away :) | 09:33 |
| chem|st | tadzik: yeah global gesture... dumbest move right after buttons and statusbar | 09:34 |
| tadzik | I still haven't seen these cover buttons so I just pretend that they don't exist | 09:34 |
| chem|st | better give us some autostart gui so we do not need to start our favourite apps every boot | 09:34 |
| chem|st | tadzik: pretend as you like left-right pulls for events and partnerscreen | 09:35 |
| chem|st | I really don't know how these changes should help new users... | 09:36 |
| chem|st | people need to "apply" changes, what did Jolla removed the apply gesture from all settings as moving fwd is not natural as you end up in the other direction, I never thought about that I end up in the other direction but after the change I was unsure if changes are now applied or not | 09:38 |
| Nicd- | what apply gesture? | 09:39 |
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| chem|st | Nicd-: when you are in settings and change something there is only back, back is naturally cancel | 09:43 |
| chem|st | going fwd is naturally apply | 09:43 |
| Nicd- | well I think it's better to only have one direction to go | 09:44 |
| Nicd- | because people accidentally swipe to the wrong direction otherwise | 09:44 |
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| chem|st | but some peops complained about that they then end up with a "back transition", maybe another more telling transition and maybe a checking hook icon like the lock-icon when locking the phone would have made that more fluent | 09:44 |
| chem|st | Nicd-: when I go back I want to discard changes usually | 09:45 |
| chem|st | better visual feedback would be nice | 09:46 |
| Nicd- | but people misunderstand. because they saw the view came from the right, they want to go left back one level when they are done | 09:46 |
| Nicd- | it's more intuitive for me at least | 09:46 |
| chem|st | hmm | 09:47 |
| chem|st | but going back is go to the past | 09:47 |
| chem|st | and pages with apply and cancel are cancel left apply right too | 09:48 |
| chem|st | any questionaire goes fwd to the right, checkout buttons are to the right, we read left to right | 09:49 |
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| Yaniel | tell that to arabs or chinese | 09:50 |
| tbr | or generic, to anyone who's primary language uses RTL | 09:51 |
| chem|st | Yaniel: I know that there are downwards and right to left but .fi is not arabs or japanese | 09:51 |
| Nicd- | but .fi aren't the only jolla users | 09:51 |
| tbr | and by far not all sailors are finns | 09:51 |
| tbr | IIRC it was even below 50% | 09:51 |
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| chem|st | should a language setting change the layout RTL? most probably yes | 09:52 |
| Yaniel | no | 09:52 |
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| chem|st | Yaniel: it should change to the standards of that language area, if they read books the other way round fwd is for them to the other side | 09:53 |
| chem|st | tbr: Nicd- in that case the back gesture is actually the fwd gesture for all RTL folks... | 09:54 |
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| Porkepix | Hey guys. Someone adviced me to maybe ask here due to a probable good presence of finnish people, helping on couple of things at Mozilla, by discussing I learned recently that they were starting to have critical missing about finnish translation on some parts as one of the translators is not very active anymore. So I forward the information here, just in case some of you know someone interested to help at this ;) | 09:59 |
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| ninnnu | Porkepix: I believe #lokalisointi has best concentration of Finnish FOSS-translators, you may also want to ask there. | 10:02 |
| Porkepix | ninnnu : What is this chan about? | 10:02 |
| Yaniel | lokalisointi means localization in finnish | 10:03 |
| Porkepix | Yaniel : Oh, ok. I guess that asking about this exceptionally in english there will not be a problem :D | 10:04 |
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| Porkepix | Mmmh, not that much people there, but I forwarded the message, thanks ninnnu | 10:06 |
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| Joonaa | Ezko: yeah, sometimes i have to replug 5+ times | 10:25 |
| Joonaa | and then sometimes it randomly loses connection | 10:25 |
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| the_mgt | what's with this hyc tag and what is all the hate about? | 10:39 |
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| Nicd- | hyc? | 10:39 |
| tadzik | on tjc | 10:40 |
| tadzik | I'm curious too | 10:40 |
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| Nicd- | so... is the statusbar visible in all apps? | 10:41 |
| tadzik | oh: https://together.jolla.com/question/20626/helsinki-yachting-club-supporter-of-the-jollauiux-design-team/ | 10:41 |
| tadzik | "They should change something, do thing others. You will need to adjust you." | 10:43 |
| tadzik | I need an english-english translator sometimes | 10:43 |
| Yaniel | pls respond | 10:44 |
| Yaniel | do the needful | 10:44 |
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| the_mgt | and to what is this Haters Yachting Club referring, ffs? post pics or at least a link to a demo video or whatever | 10:45 |
| Nicd- | I think it's just a name they came up with for tagging posts that display their opinion of the UI changes | 10:46 |
| Nicd- | I didn't really see much hate in the posts | 10:46 |
| the_mgt | it has the same "personally, me, I do not like that my money is spend for license fees" subtext | 10:47 |
| Nicd- | meaning? | 10:47 |
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| Nicd- | I mean, they're entitled to their opinion and TJC is the place to make it heard | 10:48 |
| Nicd- | and I agree with most of their points | 10:48 |
| the_mgt | that somebody things his personal emotions towards something jolla does is so important that it is worth to drive a campaign | 10:48 |
| the_mgt | *thinks | 10:48 |
| the_mgt | anyway, I'd like to see those UI changes, is there a video? screenshots? | 10:48 |
| Nicd- | try looking for tablet hands-on videos | 10:49 |
| Nicd- | anyway, why not make posts? should they stay silent? | 10:49 |
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| the_mgt | one post is ok, more than one is spam | 11:00 |
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| Nicd- | but the posts are for different aspects of the UI | 11:03 |
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| chem|st | the_mgt: how about google videos "jolla tablet" | 11:23 |
| politie | better of googling wmc jolla | 11:24 |
| chem|st | the_mgt: initially HYC was supporting sfos1.0 design decisions not haters of 2.0, I tagged evverything HYC as they destroy the principle of 1.0's no buttons, consistent left-right, clean look | 11:25 |
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| chem|st | politie: depends on your browser setting, youtube'ing jolla tablet has just enough demos on the first page | 11:25 |
| politie | oh ok, i only got old videos | 11:26 |
| chem|st | the_mgt: from enough videos and especially the phone+sfos2.0 demos I learned that introducing the statusbar is ever more dumb than only destroying the clean look, as you will have to "peek" in most relevant cases anyway even with having the statusbar... | 11:27 |
| politie | what if you can turn it off | 11:28 |
| Joonaa | chem|st: statusbar like android has? | 11:29 |
| chem|st | politie: everything a setting would be nice but never gonna happen | 11:29 |
| politie | hm | 11:29 |
| politie | it should happen | 11:29 |
| chem|st | Joonaa: topbar with battery clock and so on | 11:29 |
| Joonaa | but why? | 11:30 |
| Joonaa | i mean, on the phone i sure dont need that | 11:30 |
| chem|st | Joonaa: that is exactly the question | 11:30 |
| Nicd- | is the statusbar going to be in every app? | 11:30 |
| Nicd- | or just home screen? | 11:30 |
| Joonaa | wouldnt it be even more useless on just home screen? | 11:31 |
| tadzik | it is just homescreen | 11:32 |
| chem|st | Joonaa: Nicd- demo shows that it is on top of an app page so it gets scrolled away what is good as it is a small screen but then why have it? | 11:32 |
| chem|st | tadzik: no it is not just home screen | 11:32 |
| tadzik | well, I've only seen it on homescreen on the 5-ish videos I watched | 11:32 |
| Joonaa | chem|st: i cant watch it atm, but is it also coming for the phone? | 11:32 |
| tadzik | well, homescreen and lockscreen | 11:33 |
| chem|st | Joonaa: for the statusbar I am all on about the phone, in the demos phone and tablet are equal but for home is not landscape on phone afaik | 11:33 |
| Joonaa | wtf | 11:34 |
| Nicd- | didn't see the statusbar in the email app in the demos | 11:34 |
| tadzik | not in app, not in applist | 11:34 |
| tadzik | it seems to be in eventsview indeed | 11:34 |
| Nicd- | if it's not inside the apps then I don't care about it | 11:34 |
| chem|st | tadzik: it is in app it is on events view and so on | 11:35 |
| tadzik | chem|st: can you show me where you have a statusbar in the app? | 11:35 |
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| chem|st | tadzik: will look for the video where you actually see it... one sec | 11:35 |
| tadzik | thank you | 11:35 |
| Nicd- | I'm looking at a video with email and gallery, no statusbar in either | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | statusbar is at swipe only..? | 11:36 |
| Nicd- | not in android app either | 11:36 |
| tadzik | great, we now have made even Stskeeps confused | 11:36 |
| Nicd- | hehehe | 11:37 |
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| Nicd- | statusbar is in phone home screen but not in store app | 11:37 |
| politie | that would be good | 11:38 |
| tadzik | I see a lot of confusion about visibility and peekability from both sides | 11:39 |
| tadzik | jolla users saying "hey, it's the sailfish way to peek to see more details!" and then "it sucks that you have to peek to see anything useful" | 11:39 |
| tadzik | then sailfish being all about "details when you peek, but then look at this new statusbar, put there so you don't have to peek upwards" | 11:40 |
| tadzik | all in all, I'm sure it'll have a few more iterations before it ships, otherwise they could've just shipped it now to early adopters-updaters or whatnot | 11:41 |
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| chem|st | tadzik: I cannot find it, one of the tjcs has two jollaphone demos linked, one of them shows how the statusbar disappears for example if you scroll the eventsview | 11:42 |
| chem|st | politie: if you need to look at the home-screen for the statusbar what is the difference to peeking apart of destroying the clean view? | 11:44 |
| politie | homescreen now doesnt show time nor battery | 11:44 |
| politie | it does when you peek | 11:44 |
| chem|st | politie: and how much time do you spend on the homescreen? | 11:45 |
| tadzik | when you peek to the homescreen, you see the battery/time iirc | 11:45 |
| chem|st | and in what case did you not see the clock or battery when going there | 11:45 |
| politie | considering you get to homescreen after it locks | 11:45 |
| tadzik | yes. And if you finish the swipe it hides, which is sensible | 11:45 |
| Nicd- | chem|st: but events view is not an app | 11:46 |
| cityoflights2 | when I remove the bluetooth shourtcut then add it, the light above it , disappears | 11:46 |
| cityoflights2 | Is this known? | 11:46 |
| chem|st | Nicd-: everything is an app | 11:46 |
| tadzik | welllll | 11:46 |
| Nicd- | I disagree. events view is not an app, you don't start it like an app, it's not in the app grid... | 11:46 |
| Nicd- | if you say the statusbar is shown in apps then I expect it is shown in all apps you have in your app grid | 11:46 |
| Nicd- | and that would be awful | 11:47 |
| chem|st | Nicd-: apps are nothing else than a page you do stuff in... just because it is autostarted does not mean it is no app... | 11:47 |
| Nicd- | apps to a user are apps visible in the app grid | 11:47 |
| tadzik | I wouldn't say it's an app, even technically | 11:47 |
| Nicd- | I feel this may generate false support for your ticket in TJC if people think the statusbar is inside all apps | 11:48 |
| tadzik | it's part of the lipstick (?), the core UI, you can't close it or restart it without turning over the entire UI | 11:48 |
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| chem|st | Nicd-: that is why I wrote that it is not in all apps | 11:48 |
| tadzik | I have a feeling you're making it confusing on purpose :| | 11:48 |
| chem|st | fullscreen apps do not show the statusbar, in lists it gets scrolled away | 11:49 |
| chem|st | Nicd-: I just made an example with the events-view and you start a discussion about the word "app"! | 11:49 |
| tadzik | I think what Nicd- wants to say is that saying "statusbar appears in some apps" is quite an overstatement if it only appears on homescreen/eventsview | 11:50 |
| tadzik | I could say that on my jolla phone currently the app launcher takes screen space away from some of my apps, because it's always there on my homescreen | 11:50 |
| tadzik | (I'm spending an unnecessary amount of time discussing this) | 11:51 |
| chem|st | tadzik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2-w5jIxySM | 11:54 |
| Pawky | does anyone know why the network driver DOES acknowledge multicast, but android DOESNT get the stream??? | 11:54 |
| chem|st | from that video it seems to be homescreen and eventsview only | 11:54 |
| tadzik | yeah, that was my impression as well | 11:54 |
| tadzik | and, if that's all the "apps" that it impacts, I don't think it's *that* bad. Still, I agree that it's inconsistent with the "peek for more details" idea | 11:55 |
| chem|st | I thought I have seen it on another, the bar was all black in that video, in the link I posted it is rendered correctly | 11:55 |
| Pawky | or to makey my question more clear how am I to make android apps get multicast traffic? | 11:55 |
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| Pawky | duh? http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/03/freak-flaw-in-android-and-apple-devices-cripples-https-crypto-protection/ | 11:56 |
| Pawky | does ^^ also account for Jolla? | 11:57 |
| Nicd- | possibly, openssl is 1.0.1j in jolla | 11:57 |
| Nicd- | freak is fixed in 1.0.1k | 11:57 |
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| chem|st | hum jolla stopped tagging upgrades with $month$year now... | 12:40 |
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| phdeswer | Nicd-: Pawky : According to the freakattack.com test page the browser at least is fine | 12:46 |
| Pawky | 1-0 to Jolla vs Android then :-) | 12:47 |
| HtheB | Pawky: ? | 12:47 |
| Pawky | ^^ | 12:48 |
| Pawky | regarding the article I posted | 12:48 |
| HtheB | yeah just noticed, was reading it | 12:48 |
| HtheB | so Jolla isnt effected? | 12:48 |
| HtheB | what about 3th party browsers then? | 12:48 |
| Taaeem | I can confirm chrome on android 4.4.4 is vulnerable | 12:48 |
| pp | jolla is mostly nss | 12:49 |
| HtheB | Taaeem: yes, but what about 3th app browsers? :) | 12:50 |
| Taaeem | HtheB: Chrome is 3rd party browser, about jolla I can't say anything | 12:52 |
| HtheB | Taaeem: it's not 3rd party... ¬¬ | 12:52 |
| pp | (xmpp was gnutls iirc etc.) | 12:53 |
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| Taaeem | HtheB: it's not the default, stock browser at least on 4.4.4 | 12:53 |
| HtheB | Taaeem: that doesn't mean it's 3rd party | 12:53 |
| HtheB | so Nintendo sells Mario games, does that mean it's a 3rd party game? No. | 12:54 |
| Mikaela | are there any SIP apps for Jolla somewhere or do Android apps work? | 12:54 |
| HtheB | Chrome is made by Google, so it's 1st party games | 12:54 |
| HtheB | err. apps* | 12:54 |
| desert_mirage | leave mario out of this | 12:54 |
| desert_mirage | he's got enough to worryabout what with bowser kidnapping peach every other quarter | 12:55 |
| Tomin | I'm quite sure that Chrome is Android's stock browser. I tested that it is vulnerable on Android Lollipop (5) too. Firefox is not vulnerable apparently. | 12:55 |
| Taaeem | HtheB: just checked with dolphin browser , there comes a warning message but when you click on okay it's vulnerable | 12:56 |
| HtheB | im pretty sure Peach loves Bowser... why would she always get caught in the first place? :P I'm sure she gets caught just to cover her love of Bowser to Mario :p | 12:56 |
| HtheB | Taaeem: ok :) | 12:56 |
| HtheB | Tomin: so, there you have it. To call "Android is vurnable" is not so correct | 12:57 |
| desert_mirage | what i dont get is why isnt donkey kong in on it? | 12:58 |
| chem|st | 3rd party is non-google non-device-manufacturer | 12:58 |
| HtheB | chem|st: exactly | 12:58 |
| HtheB | desert_mirage: Donkey Kong kidnapped Pauline before | 12:58 |
| HtheB | and Pauline does not exist in games anymore... guess what happened to her ;) | 12:59 |
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| desert_mirage | she got married had kids and died of breast cancer? | 13:03 |
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| entil | she got a heroin addiction and found a way to pay for it that keeps her on the streets instead of video games? | 13:07 |
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| ShawnMcCool | ok, jsut got my phone, is there somewhere a must-have app list.. like maybe a way to very quickly enable / disable internet sharing, etc | 13:18 |
| Yaniel | that one is built in | 13:18 |
| Tegu | quickly | 13:18 |
| Yaniel | first thing you want to update to the latest sailfish version | 13:18 |
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| Tegu | oh wait yes, the toggle addable to favorites as well | 13:19 |
| Tegu | ^ is | 13:20 |
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| ShawnMcCool | i updated, but the internet sharing is buried in a settings menu. do you have tricks to get to it faster, i use it a _LOT_ | 13:20 |
| Yaniel | tap and hold the activation icon | 13:21 |
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| ShawnMcCool | i'm sorry, what is an activation icon? | 13:22 |
| cityoflights2 | when I remove the bluetooth shourtcut then add it, the light above it , disappears | 13:22 |
| cityoflights2 | Is this known? | 13:22 |
| Yaniel | the icon in settings where you enable or disable internet sharing | 13:22 |
| Yaniel | with the light next to it | 13:22 |
| ShawnMcCool | oh thanks | 13:22 |
| Yaniel | cityoflights2: do you add the toggle button or the submenu | 13:23 |
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| Yaniel | because it doesn't happen to me | 13:23 |
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| chem|st | the snapdeal press release reads like the explanation for the 2.0 changes - will sfos become a marketplaceOS like android for india? | 13:31 |
| Nicd- | what press release? | 13:32 |
| chem|st | "deep integration of regional internet services" does not sound like "freedom" anymore | 13:32 |
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| chem|st | https://cdn.jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/50_JOLLA_AND_SNAPDEAL_PRESS_RELEASE_FINAL.PDF | 13:32 |
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| ggabriel | remains to be seen whether opt-out is easy or not | 13:33 |
| chem|st | ggabriel: seems like there will be need for a "community" edition for india some time soon | 13:34 |
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| entil | I have no idea what "deep integration" means | 13:36 |
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| ggabriel | well, it's been clear from day 1 that jolla wants to allow operators and others to participate in the ecosystem, that being a usp compared to google and apple | 13:36 |
| ggabriel | but this is all talk, I don't know what it will translate into | 13:36 |
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| entil | if it's unremovable apps that send your private data to your isp it obviously sucks ;P | 13:37 |
| ggabriel | entil: the thing is... if you get the phone for free and you have to pay it back doing that, well, it's kind of fair enough | 13:38 |
| ggabriel | having said that, sudo rm -rf /path/to/isp/application should always work | 13:39 |
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| chem|st | sure, it is nothing that makes me worry, but I think the subsidiary carrier warlords should be met with a even more open system - well jolla is a software company and seems to want to get into nokia footsteps... means to take over the market of provider sub locked phones which they very like in asia and afrika | 13:39 |
| entil | when it ceases phoning home, it ceases being free, and they know where you are! | 13:39 |
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| Nicd- | "integrate their services on a prominent location in the user interface" ... so, ads for sailfish, yay! | 13:40 |
| ggabriel | entil: so long as you know in advance, i don't think it's a problem | 13:40 |
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| entil | sure | 13:43 |
| chem|st | Nicd-: partner-screen! | 13:43 |
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| Nicd- | don't care what you call it, I don't want promotions on my device | 13:43 |
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| Mikaela | has anyone tried Viber with Jolla? | 13:44 |
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| Teme | yes | 13:45 |
| Teme | works flawlessly except for contacts which work pretty well too | 13:45 |
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| Mikaela | ok, thanks, I think I will try it instead of wondering about Skype | 13:46 |
| Teme | sometimes there's a problem where you see others with their phone numbers, not their names | 13:46 |
| Teme | Skype works ok too :) | 13:46 |
| tadzik | skype is great as a hand warmer | 13:46 |
| Teme | and i was talking only about the messaging capabilities when i said "flawlessly" | 13:46 |
| Mikaela | I didn't try Skype, but ^^ with old phone and it drained battery and I want to try something new and Skype has Linux issues | 13:47 |
| Teme | i assume everyone knows that audio/video is a mess with pretty much anything alien-dalvik | 13:47 |
| Mikaela | oh, I would need audio/video :( | 13:47 |
| Teme | hmm, then i can say for sure Skype does not work, or at least didn't a few months back | 13:47 |
| Teme | never tried av with Viber | 13:47 |
| jaacoppi | skype works just fine for me | 13:48 |
| anandrkris | funny thing on snapdeal - looks like they ran out of jolla phones stock | 13:48 |
| Mikaela | does anyone have experience with Viber for Linux? | 13:49 |
| ShawnMcCool | is there a screenshot key combination or something? | 13:49 |
| tadzik | no, there's a screenshot app though | 13:49 |
| ShawnMcCool | =( | 13:50 |
| anandrkris | check out app by coderus that overlays on screen - it's fun.. | 13:52 |
| Teme | jaacoppi: you can make video calls? | 13:53 |
| tadzik | Teme: I can | 13:53 |
| Teme | i had some problem where video would not show at all and audio stuttered so that it was unusable | 13:53 |
| Teme | but as i said that's a few months ago and maybe progress progressed meanwhile :) | 13:54 |
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| Mikaela | Teme: does "except for contacts" mean that it sees no contacts? | 14:01 |
| jaacoppi | Teme: yes, video works without problems | 14:02 |
| ShawnMcCool | yea the screentap app works fine, i can't figure out how to close it | 14:04 |
| ShawnMcCool | but, watevs | 14:04 |
| Nicd- | ShawnMcCool: double tap | 14:04 |
| ShawnMcCool | thanks | 14:04 |
| Teme | Mikaela: it sees all contacts AFAIK, but for some people you can't see their name/handle... they are just phone numbers in Viber | 14:04 |
| Nicd- | you need to read the app descriptions :) | 14:04 |
| ShawnMcCool | meh, it's not like i was banging my head about it | 14:05 |
| ShawnMcCool | someone suggested the app and i gave an initial impression | 14:05 |
| Teme | i guess it suffers from the same issues as Android version of Whatsapp | 14:05 |
| ShawnMcCool | i'm not worried about being right every moment | 14:05 |
| Mikaela | Teme: it says no contacts for me | 14:05 |
| Teme | hmm | 14:05 |
| Teme | i faced that, and restarted either Viber, alien-dalvik or the whole phone and that fixed it | 14:05 |
| Mikaela | testing | 14:06 |
| Teme | just can't remember which one it was exactly but restarting *something* | 14:06 |
| Mikaela | restarting android surely restarts fiber too | 14:06 |
| Mikaela | restarting android brought contacts | 14:06 |
| jaacoppi | with android whatsapp I needed to restart the phone for the contacts to appear initially. It showed only numbers until I added Firstname and Lastname fields in People app | 14:07 |
| Teme | Mikaela: nice | 14:07 |
| jaacoppi | -> android apparently needs Firstname and Lastname instead of Nickname | 14:07 |
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| ikarus | jaacoppi: fits with Google's real name uber alles policy | 14:08 |
| Mikaela | "Login alert for Safari for Linux" | 14:10 |
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| Mikaela | (when connecting Viber for desktop to Facebook, I didn't know Safari was for Linux) | 14:11 |
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| Mikaela | it looks like https://google.com/contacts also changed at some point | 14:16 |
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| Mikaela | hmm, interesting. I was given one phone number to call and Google automatically connected it to Google+ person | 14:18 |
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| ShawnMcCool | is there a way to have certain apps run in the background and not show up on the home screen? (for example, i only want to receive notifications) | 14:19 |
| Nicd- | it needs support from the program | 14:19 |
| ShawnMcCool | ah, so what about the idea of grouping apps on the home screen? for example, i have a few android messaging programs (whatsapp, telegram) that i wouldn't mind not having to see much on the home screen | 14:20 |
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| Nicd- | you mean when they are running? | 14:21 |
| ShawnMcCool | yea, i'd like to receive message notifications from them, like if my kid wants to messag eme on whatsapp or something | 14:21 |
| Nicd- | afaik there are no plans for that, you could put it as a request into TJC | 14:21 |
| ShawnMcCool | cool cool | 14:21 |
| ShawnMcCool | https://together.jolla.com/question/84978/group-running-applications-on-home-screen/ | 14:24 |
| flux | I suppose optimally suchs protocols would be integrated natively into Sailfish, so you wouldn't need to run a special app to get the notifications | 14:26 |
| flux | but I suppose also that that's not going to happen with the Android support | 14:26 |
| ShawnMcCool | yea, frankly i'd love to have native versions, and honestly i have notifications firing off pretty well | 14:28 |
| ShawnMcCool | like, when my kid messages me on whatsapp, if i'm not on the lock screen, i get a popup that lets me respond directly without aving to go into the app | 14:29 |
| ShawnMcCool | but, otherwise, i can still see the notification on the events screen | 14:29 |
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| flux | I suppose technically there could be a 'hide' and 'unhide all' options in the application view | 14:30 |
| flux | I mean, I would expect it to be simple to implement. but I doubt it's going to :-) | 14:31 |
| ShawnMcCool | on a long tap, you could have an automatic category sitting in the next possible app position on the homescreen, you could drag apps into it or click it to see into it | 14:31 |
| ShawnMcCool | all kinds of options | 14:31 |
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| flux | I think it's expected that only a handful of GUI-ful programs are running at any given time anyway. | 14:32 |
| Joonaa | maybe you could make an app for that! | 14:32 |
| ShawnMcCool | frankly, if we had swipe.. i'd be happy with all of existence | 14:33 |
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| ryukafalz | Mikaela: If you're looking for something not-Skype for audio/video, Tox looks interesting | 18:43 |
| ryukafalz | Or XMPP, though client support for that is... ehh | 18:44 |
| Mikaela | I already solved this issue and I should probably look into Tox as so many people talk about it. I like IRC though | 18:44 |
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| ryukafalz | IRC is nice, though no audio/video :P | 18:45 |
| ryukafalz | I do wish the default messaging app supported Jingle, would be nice | 18:46 |
| Mikaela | audio/video are scary | 18:46 |
| ryukafalz | scary how? | 18:46 |
| Mikaela | they just are | 18:47 |
| ryukafalz | oh like actual a/v chat rather than the technical aspect | 18:47 |
| ryukafalz | figures I'd think of the latter first | 18:47 |
| Mikaela | oh, yes, I am thinking about the actual a/v | 18:48 |
| ryukafalz | I dunno, I have a few friends that live far away, and it's nice to be able to talk face to face sometimes | 18:48 |
| Mikaela | maybe wiith some people, but if this was a/v, I probably wouldn't be here | 18:49 |
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| ryukafalz | Oh well yeah definitely | 18:50 |
| Mikaela | I have sometimes considered it as it could help with English accent, but still | 18:50 |
| ryukafalz | It'd be interesting if there were a group video chat for Sailfish/Jolla, but if so I'd only join in occasionally if anything | 18:51 |
| ryukafalz | Most of the time I'm multitasking while I'm here anyway, a/v would take up too much time | 18:51 |
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| ryukafalz | and the barrier to joining and leaving is higher | 18:52 |
| ryukafalz | on that note, got a meeting to get to | 18:52 |
| * ryukafalz scrams | 18:52 | |
| r0kk3rz | on irc nobody knows you're a dog | 18:53 |
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| Mikaela | I would prefer starting with OTRv3 support | 18:55 |
| * Mikaela is http://sprunge.us/bGgD | 18:55 | |
| Teemu | so you're lowoxl | 18:57 |
| Teemu | can't say i know what that is | 18:58 |
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| juhaj | ryukafalz: About XMPP, you need a server, don't you? I don't know of any reliable ones | 19:02 |
| juhaj | (Google and FB do not count as google is going to stop using it and FB does not do video/audio through it) | 19:02 |
| Teemu | are they going to stop the hangouts thing or refactor it into some other protocol? | 19:03 |
| ryukafalz | (whee, I've got a bit of time before the meeting) - Yes, you do. I personally run my own server for myself and a few friends, but jabber.org is reliable (though I think registration is now closed) | 19:03 |
| ryukafalz | There are a few others, yax.im (run by Yaxim developer Georg Lukas), jit.si (run by Jitsl developers), etc. | 19:04 |
| juhaj | Closed servers are not very useful either for replacing skype | 19:04 |
| ryukafalz | Teemu: Hangouts is transitioning to a closed protocol, XMPP support is gradually being dropped | 19:04 |
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| ryukafalz | juhaj: The beauty of it is you can be on any server and communicate with anyone else | 19:05 |
| juhaj | jitsi just segfaults for me (which I consider an accomplishment as it's java!) ;) | 19:05 |
| CoderCandy | Hmm, is there any way to move my contacts from my Jolla to android? | 19:06 |
| ryukafalz | juhaj: Heh - using Swing's GTK skin? | 19:06 |
| juhaj | ryukafalz: But your grandma still needs to be on some server | 19:06 |
| ryukafalz | juhaj: True, and there do need to be public servers available for that to work, but that's nothing against the protocol itself :) | 19:07 |
| ryukafalz | Most chat systems require a server | 19:07 |
| ryukafalz | (The ones that don't are particularly interesting though) | 19:07 |
| juhaj | ryukafalz: True, and XMPP is very damn good proto | 19:07 |
| Mikaela | sorry, I was doing other things. that is jp2a version of /ctcp mikaela avatar with different size for joking about terminal client adding support for avatars | 19:07 |
| Teemu | if it has xml it cannot really be very damn good | 19:08 |
| juhaj | I'd love to get rid of skype, but cannot find a viable alternative | 19:08 |
| Mikaela | fiber looks nice to me, but it doesn't seem to have so many users that I know | 19:08 |
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| ryukafalz | I haven't found something suitable yet, but I want an open protocol | 19:11 |
| ryukafalz | anything closed is just going to be replaced in the future and I'll be right back where I started | 19:11 |
| ryukafalz | but I'm still using IRC :) | 19:11 |
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| ryukafalz | XMPP is nice, but it has so many extensions that so few clients support | 19:13 |
| ryukafalz | server-side support is decent though | 19:13 |
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| Teemu | ryukafalz: oh you mean much like we seem to be using ethernet for everything in communication | 19:14 |
| ryukafalz | How so? | 19:14 |
| Teemu | it has replaced all previous protocols at link layer | 19:14 |
| ryukafalz | ah, yes | 19:14 |
| Teemu | there are no "telephony" networks any more | 19:14 |
| ryukafalz | Well, those haven't quite died out yet :P | 19:15 |
| Teemu | there's just the global core network which is running ethernet and then several levels of isp networks on top of that and they're all ethernet | 19:15 |
| r0kk3rz | not to mention TCP, not quite everywhere | 19:15 |
| r0kk3rz | but almost | 19:15 |
| Teemu | well | 19:15 |
| ryukafalz | But yes - we need an open "social" API, something used like HTTP is now but with social relations built in | 19:15 |
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| Teemu | ip is more common whan tcp but the telco protocols run more directly over ethernet | 19:16 |
| ryukafalz | and end-to-end secure | 19:16 |
| ryukafalz | Secure Share is along the lines of what I'm looking for, it's really ambitious but development seems to have slowed - http://secushare.org/ | 19:18 |
| ryukafalz | PSYC protocol for messaging over GNUnet | 19:18 |
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| r0kk3rz | peerio is kind of doing that | 19:18 |
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| ryukafalz | hrm | 19:19 |
| ryukafalz | it looks like their client is open source but the server is not | 19:20 |
| Teemu | gnunet sounds like something i'd avoid about as much as i did avoid the microsoft network in early 1990 when they tried to compete with internet | 19:22 |
| ryukafalz | heh | 19:22 |
| ryukafalz | Well, Microsoft network was just a competing network, GNUnet is a peer to peer framework used over the internet | 19:23 |
| Teemu | gnu "the gnu message is more important than whatever the project is supposed to be about" | 19:23 |
| r0kk3rz | or even better, bittorrent bleep | 19:25 |
| r0kk3rz | because that doesnt need a server | 19:25 |
| ryukafalz | ^ also not open source | 19:26 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah well theres currently not much that ticks all of the boxes | 19:29 |
| r0kk3rz | unless you want to make yetanothermessagingprotocol | 19:30 |
| r0kk3rz | we seem to be swimming in them at the moment | 19:30 |
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| Taaeem | https://projectmeshnet.org when you talk about the Internet and alternative protocols this must be there ;-) | 19:31 |
| ryukafalz | Taaeem: Indeed, cjdns is quite nice | 19:33 |
| ryukafalz | r0kk3rz: We may be swimming in them, but there's absolutely nothing that ticks all the boxes for me :) | 19:35 |
| ryukafalz | Mandatory for me: Open source client/server (if applicable), end to end encrypted, message acknowledgements, group chat. "Nice to have": multi-device support, audio/video. | 19:36 |
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| Teemu | what about storing messages in the network until the client comes online? | 19:39 |
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| ryukafalz | Teemu: Ah, right, that's one I forgot - very very nice, but not absolutely necessary (client delaying send until both peers are online works okay-ish) | 19:42 |
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| ryukafalz | Personally what I'd like to see is, assuming multi-device support, have other clients for the same user store messages while another device is offline | 19:43 |
| the_mgt | ryukafalz: but what when you are mostly never only at the same time? | 19:43 |
| the_mgt | different timezone, lifestyles, etc | 19:43 |
| ryukafalz | the_mgt: It's less of a concern with always-on smartphones, but yes, that is a potential issue | 19:45 |
| the_mgt | but then it is not really multidevice | 19:45 |
| ryukafalz | How so? | 19:46 |
| the_mgt | pcs are not always on | 19:47 |
| ryukafalz | By multi-device in particular I meant a user could have a "profile" of sorts that is usable on multiple devices simultaneously | 19:48 |
| the_mgt | there is tox, for example. I recommended it to a friend who asked me about secure chat options. his reply was "storing on the network when clients are offline is mandatory" | 19:48 |
| ryukafalz | For group chats, I would agree | 19:49 |
| the_mgt | storing on the network works only if network is large enough or if there is a server, imho | 19:49 |
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| Teemu | i dislike how google hangouts just sends the messages to me once | 19:52 |
| Teemu | i get some link to the jolla phone and then when i'd actually want to open that link, i would want to open it on a real display on a real computer | 19:53 |
| Teemu | but the link is in the jolla | 19:53 |
| ryukafalz | In the event that there is a server, it should not be able to read the content of messages | 19:53 |
| ryukafalz | Teemu: Ah, referring to accessing it via XMPP? | 19:53 |
| Teemu | yes | 19:54 |
| ryukafalz | That's a limitation of the XMPP clients you're using; if both had XEP-0313 support, you could read the backlog on your other devices | 19:54 |
| ryukafalz | (Though not with Hangouts as Google's server doesn't support it either - they have a proprietary equivalent) | 19:54 |
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| Teemu | this all makes it sound like xmpp is not really a good protocol at all | 19:55 |
| ryukafalz | It's a great protocol, saddled by a large number of clients that don't actually make use of its features | 19:56 |
| Teemu | with all xyz-234786342987 extensions only supported on unobtainable software nobody uses | 19:56 |
| Teemu | whenever the protocol is discussed, _SOME_ extension is mentioned and then noted that not all clients or servers actually support it | 19:56 |
| the_mgt | ack. it is also a pain to implement | 19:57 |
| ryukafalz | A large part of the problem is these features weren't considered essential when XMPP was first being developed, which also happens to be when many popular clients were developed | 19:58 |
| ryukafalz | so they're not part of the "core" and implementation isn't mandatory to be compliant with the spec | 19:58 |
| Teemu | indeed | 19:58 |
| the_mgt | and now we have lots of implementations with clients that only work well with certain servers | 19:58 |
| ryukafalz | Re: servers, Prosody supports damn near everything - it's the clients that are the biggest issue IMO | 19:58 |
| ryukafalz | the_mgt: How so? | 19:59 |
| Teemu | a lot like how the standard gsm network made it possible to not deliver sms messages and still fully support the mandatory parts | 19:59 |
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| ryukafalz | heh | 20:00 |
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| Teemu | also, as it is xml, it cannot be truly expletively great as protocol | 20:00 |
| ryukafalz | "if you don't like XML" ;) | 20:00 |
| Teemu | :) | 20:01 |
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| Teemu | either protocols are plaintext-readable or they're binary | 20:01 |
| the_mgt | ryukafalz: I know some people that write a jabber server, and they are in pain. I know one guy that wrote his own client because he hates the pidgin implementation. both are cursing and screaming | 20:01 |
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| ryukafalz | Teemu: I do happen to like the PSYC protocol: http://about.psyc.eu/Spec:Syntax | 20:02 |
| the_mgt | ryukafalz: I also tried once to find a xmpp implementation with videochat between linux and windows, that is not google | 20:03 |
| ryukafalz | Jitsi is your best bet there | 20:04 |
| the_mgt | tried various clients, was able to get 240*96 px video transferred after a while | 20:04 |
| ryukafalz | along with Empathy on Linux | 20:04 |
| ryukafalz | anyway, gotta head out for now | 20:04 |
| * ryukafalz waves | 20:04 | |
| the_mgt | the truth is, the theory is fine, in practice, it sucks | 20:05 |
| Teemu | i once read the zone file bnf and created a regex that reads dns records spitting them out as sql insert statements | 20:07 |
| Teemu | bnf <3 | 20:07 |
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| juhaj | So no good replacement for skype. Sad. | 20:12 |
| juhaj | Any good teamworking-organisation-management-thingies instead? | 20:12 |
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| r0kk3rz | confluence? | 20:24 |
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| the_mgt | r0kk3rz: written in java and commercial? | 20:29 |
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| Teemu | java is the best! | 20:31 |
| ryukafalz | If you're looking for something like Trello - Libreboard is an open source clone | 20:31 |
| the_mgt | what does libreboard do? | 20:35 |
| Nicd- | hahaha, it looks like a 1:1 copy of trello | 20:36 |
| Nicd- | down to the loading gif | 20:36 |
| Nicd- | "We received a DMCA takedown notice from Github regarding our user interface. We'll be back with a new UI in the next LibreBoard release" :D | 20:37 |
| Teemu | good start boys | 20:38 |
| the_mgt | juhaj: openatrium has nice pr videos and looks interesting, dunno if it helps you | 20:39 |
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| juhaj | the_mgt: Are you now referring to the teamwork or the chat? | 20:54 |
| the_mgt | juhaj: collaboration, not chat | 20:56 |
| juhaj | the_mgt: Ok. Will have a look... | 21:00 |
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| kro | speaking of missing apps... anybody know of some native sailfish app like "Carpe Noctem" on Symbian and Meego? (AR planetarium kind of thing) | 21:11 |
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| louisdk | SailfishOS 2.0 looks really nice. I just hope that Jolla will release a version 1.9 for early adopters on the Jolla Phone to get input from the community in certern features before final release. | 22:13 |
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| HtheB | so, what about bug fixes? | 22:22 |
| HtheB | if 2.0 is already in development... | 22:22 |
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| chem|st | louisdk: the eventsview looks really nice and the ambience pulldown... the gesture duplicates and buttons will become annoying pretty soon | 22:23 |
| chem|st | HtheB: sfos2.0 is not a fresh system, it is a milestone | 22:24 |
| louisdk | chem|st, it's hope they'll fix the duplicates and remember to listen to the community. | 22:24 |
| louisdk | Also I haven't that many images, reviews and videos from Jolla MWC15 adventure yet. Only a frew :) | 22:25 |
| chem|st | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z3Tp770ups | 22:25 |
| chem|st | phone2.0 | 22:25 |
| HtheB | lol | 22:26 |
| chem|st | lol what? | 22:27 |
| HtheB | nexus has better hardware :P | 22:28 |
| chem|st | then buy a nexus? | 22:28 |
| chem|st | what are you on about? | 22:28 |
| HtheB | if only you could give me some money... | 22:28 |
| chem|st | I could but I wont | 22:28 |
| louisdk | I was going to say that SailfishOS 2.0 looks even better on the Nexus 5 than on the Jolla phone :) | 22:28 |
| HtheB | well, does it has benefits over the real Jolla | 22:29 |
| HtheB | ? | 22:29 |
| chem|st | probably not much | 22:29 |
| chem|st | faster internal memory probably | 22:29 |
| HtheB | (apart from the "not having android support", kinda ironic hehe) | 22:29 |
| louisdk | HtheB, some features might be buggy or not work at all on the Nexus 5. | 22:29 |
| HtheB | louisdk: that is always with custom roms aswell | 22:30 |
| chem|st | I'd like to see the current demo as a "tutorial" mode - if you leave that everything is back to normal^^ gesture wise | 22:30 |
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| HtheB | chem|st: :D haha | 22:33 |
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| chem|st | advanced has cover actions, pull up only instead of 'all'up for launcher and events-view is back at swipe up | 22:33 |
| HtheB | swipe down to close = no more? :( | 22:33 |
| chem|st | statusbar is only in events-view, peeking becomes relevant | 22:34 |
| chem|st | HtheB: that is something that can be tweaked I guess, I think having a flick for closing things and a long swipe for opening the drop-down would suite most people | 22:35 |
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| HtheB | to be honest, adding those "Ambiances" is kinda irrelevant in a normal "in-app" gesture | 22:37 |
| louisdk | SailfishOS 2.0 looks quite stable already. It looks fast and snappy and have already been ported onto different hardware. Really hope that beta testers would be able to test very soon, | 22:37 |
| HtheB | if you're in-app, and do swipe from top to down, it still gives the ambiance menu | 22:37 |
| phlixi_ | HtheB: are you sure? | 22:38 |
| phlixi_ | this would be terrible :/ | 22:38 |
| HtheB | phlixi_: yes, i saw it in some of the videos on youtube | 22:39 |
| phlixi_ | when I got my jolla over a year ago, i uploaded one picture to use it as ambiance, and never changed it (ok, I changed it, but only by mistake, to change it back imideatily) | 22:39 |
| phlixi_ | the whole ambiance stuff... couldnt care less | 22:39 |
| phlixi_ | now closing apps needs more steps... | 22:39 |
| phlixi_ | great! | 22:39 |
| louisdk | phlixi_, +1 | 22:41 |
| HtheB | +92347230987 | 22:42 |
| ortylp | phlixi_, +1 | 22:43 |
| HtheB | I think they really want to push the ambiance shit | 22:43 |
| HtheB | :/ | 22:43 |
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| ortylp | but this is real shit, absolutely no use for it, if it had at least the functionality of Nokia profiles, but not, it is just stripped shit... | 22:44 |
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| urs | btw, is there a way to disable the silly "rotate vertically for best ambience results" message in the camera app? | 22:44 |
| phlixi_ | i understand why its done, because this is one of the rare so called differentiators of sailfish for someone who does not care about foss, privacy etc (like the mass) | 22:44 |
| phlixi_ | well, i have mine always on silent and vibrate and never change that, but i thought you could use it just like a profile | 22:45 |
| phlixi_ | or to explain ambiance to someone from the ninetes, its profiles with BG picture and fontcolors | 22:46 |
| ortylp | I NEED profiles that switch based on time and location, but no "ambiences" | 22:46 |
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| ortylp | mo, it does not have the functionality of profiles, that is the problem | 22:46 |
| phlixi_ | ok, my 5130, 6110 etc never had THAT features... came back with n900 :-) | 22:46 |
| HtheB | ortylp: you can do it now | 22:46 |
| phlixi_ | ...you always had to switch the profiles manually | 22:46 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: did you recognize that "the whole ambience stuff" has situation features in the demo... so things like "active from 9-17" | 22:47 |
| phlixi_ | but cant you change amiance with situations app? | 22:47 |
| ortylp | you can so some part of it using "situations" | 22:47 |
| phlixi_ | chem|st: no (but I actuall do not care, i always want silent+vibrate and never change) but maybe ortylp is interested ;-) | 22:47 |
| ortylp | but I have finally uninstalled situations, because it interfered with bluetooth and wlan connetions | 22:48 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: you are a special case then, as I like to have BT and WLan switched on and off and have accounts go online when at a specific location or within working hours etc | 22:49 |
| ortylp | on Android I am using "Tasker" and it works like a charm | 22:49 |
| phlixi_ | chem|st: may i ask why you would want to switch off BT&WLan? or deactivate accounts? | 22:49 |
| chem|st | ortylp: what is better than "shipped with the core software"? | 22:49 |
| ortylp | the principle is: everything that can be automated should be done so | 22:50 |
| HtheB | ortylp: here take a look | 22:50 |
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| phlixi_ | i consider myself a heavy user (counting screen on time) and never have problems with batterie in the evening, but have to charge anyway, so why turn off wlan/bt? | 22:50 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: because I want to go offline from work clients and go online on private clients or do not need BT at work so it has to be off | 22:51 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: I have 5 days uptime, as things are all on-demand and not always on | 22:52 |
| ortylp | phlixi_: I have exactly the same use case as chem|st | 22:52 |
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| phlixi_ | and what kind of accounts are those? | 22:52 |
| chem|st | I do not use the built in accounts atm as they are battery hungry, I connect ssh to a server saves me 75% battery | 22:52 |
| phlixi_ | just out of curiosity | 22:53 |
| HtheB | ortylp: http://youtu.be/X2-w5jIxySM?t=2m53s | 22:53 |
| chem|st | what accoutns? work jabber + work SIP + work email VS private jabber + home SIP | 22:54 |
| HtheB | here you can see it's not closing when swiping down, and also it shows different profiles as "ambiances" | 22:54 |
| phlixi_ | ok, never considered any of them to work at all (SIP), and email is already configurable to follow a scedule | 22:54 |
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| chem|st | phlixi_: your case is special you have to admit, I do not have my phone pressed to my wiener so I know when it vibrates, sometimes I am in another room and need to hear it ringing, sometimes I am in a meeting where even vibrating is off limits... | 22:55 |
| chem|st | at home it is lying at one spot and having it silently vibrate would be as good as having it turned off | 22:56 |
| HtheB | ortylp: oh, you should see 5:27 ! | 22:56 |
| phlixi_ | chem|st, well, i guess you have a wrong impression, i just do not bundle my work that much on my phone, and do not want to be interupted most of the time, therefore i check if there is something new rather then let the phone interupt me ;-) | 22:57 |
| HtheB | http://youtu.be/X2-w5jIxySM?t=5m27s | 22:57 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: you see, you do not need a phone, you need an internet tablet of the size of a phone... mine is primarily a phone | 22:57 |
| phlixi_ | that on the other hand is correct :-) | 22:58 |
| chem|st | hehe | 22:58 |
| phlixi_ | (and i prefer size of n9^^) | 22:58 |
| ortylp | HtheB: but it is from the "lock screen" | 22:58 |
| phlixi_ | but i do not think that this tooo special... but i also admit, that ambiances might be usefull in some cases (where they are not currently, afaik you can not switch them automatically YET) | 22:59 |
| ortylp | phlixi_: I prefer size of Galaxy Note II and stylus | 22:59 |
| HtheB | ortylp: if you looked the link I gave you before, it's from in app ;) | 22:59 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: yet, sure even for you there will be usecases I guess | 23:00 |
| phlixi_ | i can hardly imagine that. and for sure i prefer close gesture over ambiance shortcut | 23:00 |
| chem|st | HtheB: what is indeed nice that way is that you can lock the phone from anywhere... | 23:01 |
| chem|st | but I'd like to have that as two options in that pulldown | 23:01 |
| ortylp | HtheB: you are right, but there is already an option to disable the swipe down, maybe it was simply switched off there... othwerwise the change would be totally contraproductive | 23:01 |
| HtheB | chem|st: thats why we have the "lock button"for?.... | 23:01 |
| HtheB | ortylp: yeah I think so | 23:01 |
| chem|st | HtheB: what button? | 23:01 |
| chem|st | I hate buttons | 23:01 |
| HtheB | oh so how do you turn on your phone if it's off? :) | 23:01 |
| phlixi_ | double tab :D | 23:02 |
| phlixi_ | (or charger if empty) | 23:02 |
| phlixi_ | but i dont care | 23:02 |
| chem|st | I plugin a cable and hope that the charging crashes and boots the phone! | 23:02 |
| chem|st | :) | 23:02 |
| HtheB | chem|st: lol | 23:02 |
| phlixi_ | i gues the most usefull thing of the buttons is to have correct orientation when pulling it out of the pocket | 23:02 |
| HtheB | I think if the lockscreen would act like N9, it would be perfect | 23:03 |
| HtheB | swipe from right, to get back to the last used app | 23:03 |
| ortylp | HtheB: the use of the button requires special handling of the device, or use with two hands, just tap on the screen and it is on.... | 23:03 |
| phlixi_ | LPS would be aaaawwweeeeeesoooomeeeeee, but we will never getthat | 23:03 |
| chem|st | I double tap to wake it and I only reboot my phone, and that happens from software upgrades... or reboot on console | 23:03 |
| HtheB | instead of the windows | 23:03 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: it is already there | 23:03 |
| chem|st | using it for >2 months | 23:03 |
| HtheB | ortylp: i dont know how you hold your pohne, but I can push a button with 1 hand.. O_o | 23:04 |
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| phlixi_ | chem|st: and 5 days no charging? doubt that! | 23:04 |
| HtheB | dont you guys agree about my idea? | 23:04 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: it is not LPS as on N9, but if you pull it out of your pocket the screen is dimm lit with info on it for example | 23:04 |
| ortylp | I need to reboot the device once a day because there is always something borked... | 23:05 |
| phlixi_ | chem|st: ok, thats not usefull for me, its laying around all the time besides me. and if i pull out of the pocket, i will turn it on anyway | 23:05 |
| chem|st | HtheB: nope return to last opened app pisses me of the way it is now already, I do not need a gesture that does that even after hours | 23:05 |
| ortylp | and I have not ever started to tinker with it yet | 23:05 |
| chem|st | I get a text, read that put the phone down it goes off... I grab it to google something and what I need to do is get out of the msg app first == annoyed! | 23:06 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: it will trigger from the proximity sensor so if it is lying between my hands while typing it turns on occasionally | 23:07 |
| phlixi_ | there i have a notepad (real paper... you know^^) | 23:07 |
| chem|st | that is to my right | 23:08 |
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| chem|st | in front of me is usually coffee my phone and below that a stack of paper | 23:08 |
| phlixi_ | also turning on randomly is not appreciated, that would imply that there is something new to check | 23:08 |
| phlixi_ | ...distracting | 23:08 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: I did not say it is perfect but without replacing the screen you wont get "always on" | 23:09 |
| HtheB | chem|st: having that option, as optional would be great | 23:09 |
| phlixi_ | liked the n9, justthe time, the IP the ISO weeknumber (for the bussiness idiots) and the notifications... no need to touch, moving eyeballs was enough to check | 23:10 |
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| chem|st | it would be great if you could choose what the lockscreen left right does | 23:10 |
| chem|st | and first of all bottom swipe needs to stay events-view! | 23:10 |
| phlixi_ | ...and thats where i am always disappointed when i read the specs of a new jolla device, no oled :-( | 23:10 |
| chem|st | I do neither need nor want oled... | 23:11 |
| chem|st | crystal clear IPS nothing less | 23:12 |
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| keithzg | Currently using my N9 (still!) and a Moto X . . . lack of OLED is a huge step back, practicality-wise. | 23:12 |
| phlixi_ | i like the possibility of LPS, the better blacks and do not care about color accuracy at all... any other benefits for LCD? | 23:12 |
| chem|st | what do I need LPS for? to see the clock? I have so many clocks around me I cannot even count them... | 23:12 |
| phlixi_ | as mentioned above, LPS is "check for notifications with eyeball movement only" | 23:13 |
| keithzg | Notifications, the weather, current network status . . . | 23:13 |
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| keithzg | What other clocks do i always have on me? :P | 23:13 |
| Stskeeps | so much backlog | 23:14 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:14 |
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| phlixi_ | keithzg: well, it seems like chem|st wants you to buy a pebble :D | 23:14 |
| keithzg | phlixi_: That's basically my backup plan :P | 23:15 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: I do not need to look on my phone for notifications... | 23:15 |
| chem|st | and what you are asking for can be achieved by an status led... | 23:15 |
| phlixi_ | well, sometimes i want to :) | 23:15 |
| keithzg | ughhhh status leds? | 23:15 |
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| phlixi_ | meh | 23:15 |
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| keithzg | Yeah, those'll tell me the battery percentage of my phone :P | 23:15 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps: not worth reading... its only about work... well your work^^ | 23:16 |
| keithzg | Hmmm, my Jolla's Store app is stuck endlessly trying to refresh, and "pkcon refresh" similarly takes forever . . . oh, I see, timing out on 'https://store-repository.jolla.com/releases/1.1.2.16/jolla-hw/adaptation-android-common/armv7hl/repodata/repomd.xml?credentials=store' | 23:16 |
| Stskeeps | chem|st: i've been demoing sf2.0 for a large portion of my days here.. people really get it this time around :P | 23:16 |
| Stskeeps | such a joy to leave a tablet with a journalist and they walk through the ui with ease | 23:16 |
| phlixi_ | Stskeeps: does it work the same with "the grandma"? :) | 23:17 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps: and I just hope that this is a beginner-mode and you bring the "real" thing later on! | 23:17 |
| chem|st | or that it is the booth-demo version... | 23:18 |
| keithzg | As long as there's still swipe-down-to-close, I'm good :) (these days I sadly end up having to use Android most of the time, but it's still impossible to untrain myself, heh) | 23:18 |
| chem|st | keithzg: there isn't | 23:18 |
| Stskeeps | chem|st: still some adjustments to be done | 23:18 |
| chem|st | I really hope that buttons are not an option and duplication of actions neither | 23:19 |
| keithzg | chem|st: Well, that hasn't been enabled by *default* for a while, right? but as long as it's an easy option (or hell, a hard one; I remember the original N9 release it took creating a config file, that's okay with me) | 23:19 |
| Stskeeps | chem|st: hum? | 23:19 |
| chem|st | from the demos on youtube we read that cover-actions are buttons and "pulls" do just the same as "swipes" | 23:20 |
| Stskeeps | ah.. still tuning | 23:20 |
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| chem|st | what is the events-view move about? it is the 1st priority page and got moved in third line?! | 23:21 |
| HtheB | Stskeeps: can there be an option when you unlock the phone by swiping from the right to left, that it goes to the last opened app/window? Like it was on the N9 | 23:21 |
| Stskeeps | i'm so the wrong guy to ask about | 23:22 |
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| Stskeeps | that | 23:22 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:22 |
| keithzg | Stskeeps is the plumber, not the decorator ;) | 23:22 |
| chem|st | :) | 23:22 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps: is the HW adaption going well then? | 23:22 |
| Stskeeps | sure | 23:23 |
| Stskeeps | it's able to stand a mw | 23:23 |
| Stskeeps | c | 23:23 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:23 |
| keithzg | hah! | 23:23 |
| HtheB | Stskeeps: any idea who I can ask this? ^^ | 23:23 |
| chem|st | do we get a current kernel? or even more current? | 23:23 |
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| chem|st | HtheB: design team | 23:23 |
| HtheB | is anyone from the design theme over here? | 23:24 |
| Stskeeps | don't think so | 23:24 |
| HtheB | ok :( | 23:24 |
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| keithzg | Hmmm the new official weather app seems to pull from the wrong local airport for the forecast for me, alas | 23:30 |
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| chem|st | Stskeeps: to your "walks through with ease" comment, for sure, people not knowing blackberry or jolla yet that the idea of being outside their "flick the screen" world is too much to ask on first attempt - but seriously, the UI as it is now does not need to be crippled to be android-user-first-attempt compatible, with a better tutorial and/or a beginner mode you can help them on their way but removing the usability from it is not an options after | 23:32 |
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| chem|st | that was maybe a bit harsh... sry | 23:32 |
| chem|st | the eventsview is fabulous! and I very like the ambience pulldown (after tweaking the close-apps feature) | 23:33 |
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| Stskeeps | chem|st: if you can't convince anybody in 30 seconds, it's a lost sale.. | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | but sure, i could agree with advanced modes | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | bb | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | l | 23:34 |
| chem|st | thats why I think a beginner mode would be a good idea | 23:34 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps: hae a good nights sleep! | 23:34 |
| keithzg | I actually really liked that back in the day, a lot of Linux applications would offer that. For example Xine-UI (hey, I really liked it, dammit!) by default had a basic, comprehensible set of settings, but very prominently offered the ability to bump up the 'mode'. | 23:35 |
| keithzg | So for people who *did* know what they were doing, they could set it to an expert mode and tweak and change all sorts of things, both UI/"UX" wise and in terms of how it handled things under-the-hood. | 23:36 |
| phlixi_ | keithzg: thats nice of course, but has to be implemented (and tested and documented etc etc) | 23:37 |
| phlixi_ | ... = money (time*manpower*etc) | 23:37 |
| phlixi_ | and, it will not sell any devices (when you need it, you already have it, following Stskeeps argument to sell the device in 30 seconds) | 23:38 |
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| keithzg | phlixi_: Sure, sure. Although, having the complex things beneath a "here be dragons!" warning of sorts also means (like people who don't root their Android phones because of the warranty) that people are taking it into their own hands. Don't need nearly as much testing and documentation then, necessarily. | 23:39 |
| phlixi_ | on the other hand i dot care much about the ui, i dislike google data collection and apples golden cage, and appreciate jollas openes. way more important to me than ambiance etc | 23:39 |
| keithzg | Mmm, in my mind the overall experience is somewhat inextricable. I personally don't worry too much about Google's data collection though since all our traffic goes through pipes (in the metaphorical sense) which are completely tapped by intelligence agencies *anyways*. | 23:40 |
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| phlixi_ | keithzg: having one tapping everything is not a reason to have another one | 23:41 |
| keithzg | phlixi_: I trust Google more than I trust the NSA, frankly. And they at least have an incentive to anonymise and protect the data. | 23:41 |
| keithzg | But my point is, I mostly care about the choice to do whatever I want to do with a device. Which has many levels of practical issues to solve. | 23:42 |
| keithzg | For example, some folks have touted Ubuntu Touch as more Free than SailfishOS. And while it's true that more components are Free Software, on the other hand Ubuntu Touch ships the core OS as a single read-only image. | 23:43 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: it cuts down to having pulls and swipes do the same and have coveractions be buttons, and have the statusbar | 23:43 |
| chem|st | that's about it | 23:43 |
| phlixi_ | keithzg: for now there is noubuntu ;-) | 23:43 |
| phlixi_ | (space not intentionally left out) | 23:44 |
| phlixi_ | chem|st: seems to me like dumbing down the ui :( | 23:45 |
| chem|st | yeah as beginner mode | 23:45 |
| chem|st | the advanced mode would be what we have now | 23:45 |
| keithzg | Yeah, and that is someone worrying. I have Android 5.0, Ubuntu Touch and SailfishOS as boot options on my Nexus 4 and I feel most at home by far in SailfishOS. | 23:45 |
| keithzg | I doubt they'd go for a beginner+advanced mode, that's completely fallen out of favour with contemporary UI designers. | 23:46 |
| phlixi_ | for now it is kinda consistent, to have gestures starting outside the screen doing something in the system (e.g. minimize an app) and starting inside the screen does something inside the app | 23:46 |
| chem|st | so if they manage to have the pagelayout and gestures switched from what we saw in the demos to the behaviour we have now to become advanced, sure it would be irritating at first that the events-view moved but well | 23:47 |
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| chem|st | what I do not understand is, new users still have to get that outside gesture from the beginning or they are not able to minimize an app... so why have the home-screen crippled in the first place? | 23:48 |
| phlixi_ | well, they could use the powerbutton :D | 23:48 |
| phlixi_ | since (i think unfortunately) the powerbutton does not bring you back to where you left | 23:49 |
| phlixi_ | (prefer n9 style) | 23:49 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps had a good point, first 30sec sell, but the selling point is the home-screen and the events-view | 23:49 |
| chem|st | at least for me | 23:49 |
| chem|st | easy access to all I need | 23:49 |
| keithzg | phlixi_: Yeah, I like the swipe-up-for-notifications, but otherwise I sadly still kindof think the N9 had it pretty near perfect. | 23:50 |
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| chem|st | phlixi_: double-click the pwr-button unlocks directly though | 23:50 |
| keithzg | 'tis why I've still held onto mine as my phone, even though I end up having to carry a Moto X for every non-phone thing. | 23:50 |
| phlixi_ | that is of course a good point, but i think it should not be over valued (or at leat it should be tried to be measured) as i think there other selling points (as mentioned above, for example openness) | 23:50 |
| chem|st | keithzg: I hated the N9 for the inconsistent minimize behaviour | 23:51 |
| chem|st | I never knew where I end up when minimizing an app | 23:51 |
| chem|st | when I wanted to open a new app I for sure ended up on the events-page first | 23:51 |
| keithzg | chem|st: IIRC that was fixed by felipec but never mainlined. | 23:51 |
| chem|st | also returning to the last app opened needed a turn-off-setting, that is so annoying | 23:52 |
| phlixi_ | chem|st: the n9 behaviour is everything but not inconsistent! it is super consostent, you always get to where you left. | 23:52 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: as if I know where I left 3 hours ago | 23:52 |
| chem|st | consistent is when you always end up on the same page | 23:53 |
| chem|st | so muscle memory can kick in | 23:53 |
| phlixi_ | not nessesarily | 23:53 |
| chem|st | for sure | 23:53 |
| keithzg | chem|st: but most of the time when minimizing an app it hasn't been 3 hours since you last touched the phone, unless you really rarely use your phone :P | 23:53 |
| phlixi_ | i understand that you do not like that behaviuor, but it is not inconsistent | 23:53 |
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| chem|st | keithzg: 3 hours... I am 31 working 8-9 hours a day, I do not check my phone every 10minutes | 23:54 |
| phlixi_ | for example i hate it when i have a conversation and everytime there is a new message i have to maximize the app first | 23:54 |
| phlixi_ | ...instead o fhaving it where i left of | 23:55 |
| chem|st | phlixi_: that is when you have a conversation, that is the only case people come up with I understand... | 23:55 |
| phlixi_ | and i have it all the time ;-) | 23:55 |
| chem|st | well set the timer to 5 hours then... | 23:55 |
| phlixi_ | ...will drain the battery | 23:56 |
| chem|st | hae, the return to last app timer drains the battery? | 23:56 |
| keithzg | phlixi_: Naw, it can check when you swipe to minimize how long it's been since you last opened it. | 23:56 |
| phlixi_ | on the n9 i never where annoyed ba landing where i left. on the jolla i am pretty often annoyed that i am not where i left | 23:56 |
| keithzg | On the Jolla I'm mostly annoyed by being returned to the lock screen every time I turn it back on :P | 23:57 |
| phlixi_ | and that silly lockscreen comes on top :) | 23:57 |
| phlixi_ | (has been on the n9) | 23:57 |
| chem|st | tune it up then, if you had no new msg for minutes that is no conversation for me | 23:58 |
| chem|st | keithzg: that is also tunable | 23:58 |
| phlixi_ | i often have conversations where there is a message every 15 minutes, "in between" | 23:58 |
| keithzg | chem|st: Where? | 23:59 |
| chem|st | and that is probably a timeframe I do not get annoyed that I have to tap once more to get ther | 23:59 |
| phlixi_ | besides, the screen turns off after (dot now, 20-30sec) and there are a lot of conversations with more than that between two messages | 23:59 |
| chem|st | keithzg: you can set what double-tap and pwr-btn does with mce | 23:59 |
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