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| Nicd- | my jolla's GPS decided to be funny this morning | 07:30 |
|---|---|---|
| Nicd- | first it decided that the lowest speed possible is 2 m/s so whenever I stopped, my app showed 7.2 km/h | 07:30 |
| Nicd- | after a few restarts I clocked my bus going 120 km/h at a 50 km/h zone... and then jolla lowered the minimum speed to 1 m/s for the rest of the trip | 07:31 |
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| klopsi-u3 | hi Nicd- can the jolla map application also navigate offline? | 07:33 |
| Nicd- | afaik no | 07:33 |
| Teemu | not that i know of | 07:33 |
| Teemu | being made with here technology i'm a bit surprised | 07:34 |
| Nicd- | guess it's partly licencing and partly a manpower issue | 07:34 |
| Nicd- | remember they didn't make the map app themselves | 07:34 |
| Teemu | i like most of its ui though | 07:35 |
| klopsi-u3 | but it can show a downloaded map and gps location while offline? | 07:35 |
| klopsi-u3 | just not navigation? | 07:35 |
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| Nicd- | no, it has no offline maps | 07:35 |
| klopsi-u3 | thats a shame | 07:36 |
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| Sail0r | oO http://www.jollausers.com/2015/02/russia-to-help-developers-to-port-their-apps-to-sailfish-os-and-tizen-from-android-and-ios/ | 09:45 |
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| Nicd- | well, tizen and sailfish aren't controlled/made by the US :P | 09:47 |
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| chem|st | iirc tizen is so awefully bad that a friend of mine stopped developing for it after 10 days... | 09:49 |
| entil | would it be cynical to question how the russian intelligence agencies will insert their own backdoors into sailfish apps :P | 09:50 |
| tbr | entil: you don't need to if you outlaw foreign online services | 09:51 |
| flux | entil, don't worry, sailfish has rock solid permission system for applications. no, wait :/ | 09:51 |
| entil | tbr: also encryption | 09:51 |
| entil | flux :( | 09:52 |
| Sidde | us has already backdoored the internet, so it's only fair ;) | 09:52 |
| Sidde | flux: Jolla should fix apparmor or selinux rather sooner than later | 09:53 |
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| flux | sidde, do you think if either of those solutions is being considered or perhaps a third one? | 10:07 |
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| chem|st | flux: can be wrong but iirc I heard selinux at some point | 10:10 |
| chem|st | don't know if it was "selinux" or "like selinux" but security framework is a topic | 10:11 |
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| flux | I suppose selinux the way to get a fully secure system, but it could be more work to set up than app armor.. | 10:13 |
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| Sidde | flux: opensuse used to run apparmor and apparmor is also a lot easier to configure than selinux | 11:15 |
| Sidde | to use selinux every developer would need to create a selinux profile with it's application | 11:16 |
| Sidde | and then some basic selinux rules than can override those | 11:16 |
| Sidde | selinux policies are not so easy to write | 11:16 |
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| flux | I feel selinux is a system-wide from-the-ground-up security solution and apparmor is just something you can tack on. for example, it seems apparmor does not support security labels? or how about passing credentials over fd? | 11:17 |
| flux | in the case of a whole linux distribution it might be a lot of work to get selinux right, but perhaps there is some chance for jolla.. | 11:18 |
| Aard | chem|st: we're investigating selinux, but we've not decided yet, and if we go for selinux we'll publish a paper explaining _why_ we go for it before we start implementing | 11:18 |
| Sidde | if the work has not yet started it will be years before it will work in a good way | 11:22 |
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| Sidde | selinux is not something you can just install and it solves itself. Every application needs a policy | 11:23 |
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| flux | aegis might not be too bad.. ;-) | 11:33 |
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| * phdeswer does an on device aegis DOS on flux's device | 11:39 | |
| flux | really, all that was bad about aegis was the (lack of) documentation and the fact that even developer devices were locked down with it. | 11:39 |
| pp | aegis is fundamentally flawed ;-) | 11:39 |
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| cityoflights2 | pp: y? | 11:40 |
| flux | other than that it had cool features, for example you could create your own permissions. example: the X-server could provide special priviledges to clients with a certain credential | 11:40 |
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| flux | how is this related? the wayland compositor could provide ability to take screenshots to clients that have the matching capability. | 11:41 |
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| pp | based on file paths | 11:41 |
| flux | pp, based on inodes is not much better. in fact, arguably worse. | 11:41 |
| pp | that design choice is just full of fail | 11:41 |
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| sebsebseb | hi | 11:42 |
| flux | I wonder if aegis actually used any special features of the file system? | 11:42 |
| flux | ie. extended attributes, security labels | 11:42 |
| flux | or was it just layered on top of it | 11:42 |
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| flux | pp, so what practical issues did that lead to? | 11:42 |
| pp | just about impossible to plug all the holes | 11:43 |
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| flux | because it depends on the system to prevent bad binaries being places on top of good ones? | 11:45 |
| flux | as far as I know, the greatest hack of them all, inception, was based on trusted-but-flakey shell scripts.. but I could be totally wrong there :) | 11:46 |
| pp | so many vectors for race condition errors :/ | 11:46 |
| flux | so does apparmor share these? it's based on paths as well, isn't it? | 11:47 |
| phdeswer | It tried to control everything, leaving gaps. And also making it a prime vector for killing devices as it tripped so easily. | 11:47 |
| cityoflights2 | hi, did anyone actually tried to hack the N9? why? | 11:47 |
| flux | phdeswer, well, it killed them so easily because they tried to protect the company, not only the device.. | 11:48 |
| flux | cityoflights2, to get the real root, of course | 11:48 |
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| phdeswer | flux: it was one of its flaws... | 11:48 |
| flux | cityoflights2, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=82835 | 11:48 |
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| cityoflights2 | but selinux was good , right? | 11:48 |
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| phdeswer | flux: nothing to do with protecting the company. Anyway good security prevents bad things happening without getting in the way. Aegis did not succeed there at all. (It even made internal development at Nokia hell and only added to delay things) | 11:50 |
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| pp | yep, you couldn't remove the diginotar cert yourself because of it :-) | 11:51 |
| flux | phdeswer, I would blame on the tooling and documentation than the tool itself for the delays | 11:52 |
| flux | I would not expect there to have been any less nightmare with SELinux. | 11:52 |
| flux | possibly much smoother sailing with apparmour, though, but I wouldn't trust it as much :) | 11:52 |
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| pp | introduce selinux slowly like android :P | 11:53 |
| cityoflights2 | first android with selinux, was very slow IMHO | 11:53 |
| cityoflights2 | I don't know if selinux was the reason | 11:53 |
| phdeswer | flux: selinux is a pain to set up, but once the policy is good is stays out of the way. Not aegis. But yes the documentation was dreadful too which only made it worse. | 11:54 |
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| pp | fedora tried the "protect everything with selinux" and it was completely unusasble | 11:55 |
| pp | -s | 11:55 |
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| pp | but that was soon reverted and made a lot more sensible | 11:56 |
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| phdeswer | Try to protect everything and you end up protecting nothing... | 11:59 |
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| Sidde | cityoflights2: selinux is good and it's the future of the security in linux | 12:02 |
| Sidde | rhel for example enforces selinux by default nowdays | 12:03 |
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| chem|st | Aard: pretty good move to explain _why_ *before* implementing :) | 12:34 |
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| Plnt | http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/09/from-russia-with-love-for-open-source/ | 12:55 |
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| Stskeeps | https://blog.jolla.com/hacknplay-20150209/ | 13:15 |
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| mornfall | Stskeeps: that totally flunked my attention span :P | 13:38 |
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| mornfall | Stskeeps: but yeah, interesting stuff | 14:10 |
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| Mikaela | unless wicd is lying, currently all WLAN APs here are on channel 1. Doesn't Jolla notice that and pick some less populated channel? | 15:16 |
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| Mikaela | I just noticed this and I must probably also take a look at normal APs to see why they both are on 1 | 15:17 |
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| mornfall | hmm, I guess there's no way for connman to fire up a IPv6 tunnel if no native IPv6 connectivity is available? | 15:22 |
| mornfall | (and *only* if that is the case) | 15:22 |
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| TemeV | Mikaela: it seems to me that normal wifi ap:s with "automatic" channel selection just choose channel 1 | 15:34 |
| Mikaela | here other AP has usually always took 6 when 1 is in use | 15:35 |
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| TemeV | It would be too smart to check which channel is free and use that. I've had to do that manually | 15:35 |
| TemeV | On second thought, it is good that all the APs are on channel one, so there is more channels left for me | 15:36 |
| Mikaela | :D | 15:36 |
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| artemma | Want to find new cool free & not so free ambiences for #jolla? Got art for sharing or sell? Go support Ambience Store buff.ly/1xY35y7 Hint: in-app purchases vote wanted ;) | 15:42 |
| Ezko | i only have a jolla | 15:43 |
| Ezko | no #jolla | 15:43 |
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| artemma | that's a copy of a tweet, heh @weliveinhashtagworldnow | 15:43 |
| artemma | I mean #weliveinhashtagworldnow | 15:44 |
| Ezko | takes ages to remove that # from there | 15:44 |
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| Stskeeps | https://jolla.com/jobs/ | 16:24 |
| Nicd- | "consider Lennart Poettering your personal hero" -- might be pretty hard to find people with that qualification... ;D | 16:25 |
| Stskeeps | maybe :) | 16:26 |
| Mikaela | I don't have anything personally against them, but their behaviour hasn't always been so good, but behaviour in the init wars hasn't been so good either | 16:27 |
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| beidl | that description fits me pretty well. | 16:32 |
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| Ezko | d3 and dota2 are important interests for a developer | 16:34 |
| Ezko | :D | 16:34 |
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| Yaniel | absolutely | 16:35 |
| Bysmyyr | yep, that was nice | 16:35 |
| Nicd- | Ezko: d3 might refer to http://d3js.org/ | 16:36 |
| Ezko | oh, right | 16:37 |
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| phdeswer | or doom3? | 16:48 |
| kimmoli | that reminds me, was doom already ported for jolla ? | 16:49 |
| klopsi-u3 | playing a fps on a touchscreen is silly | 16:50 |
| kimmoli | yes, it is also silly to play it on printer display | 16:50 |
| kimmoli | but it is cool to play it on analog oscilloscope screen | 16:50 |
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| TCJ | Hello all! Really interested in the Jolla phone and the upcoming tablet. From Canada though and wondering if anyone has experience with the phone in NA? Some brief searching leads me to believe it will work with certain providers (For LTE at least) and I assume lesser 2G/3G would work without troubles? | 17:21 |
| coderus | kimmoli: doom <3 oscilloscope | 17:21 |
| ikarus | TCJ: actually 3G might be the most troublesome, but 2G is a sure hit in Canada | 17:23 |
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| TCJ | ikarus: that is good news, since 2G is all I can pickup at my home! | 17:24 |
| TCJ | How does the Jolla act when attached to a computer? Can it function just as a USB storage device, or does it flip into multimedia mode crap? | 17:27 |
| ikarus | MTP, the filesystem configuration uses btrfs for the home directory, so it can't be accessed by a computer directly | 17:27 |
| the_mgt | it is all about multimedia crap, not working under osx and only working partly under linux | 17:27 |
| ikarus | but in developer mode it offers a ssh server over both wire and wireless and you can use sshfs with that | 17:27 |
| the_mgt | you can use sshfs, though | 17:27 |
| ikarus | I've been working on porting 9p over USB to Jolla as an alternative to MTP (with similar functionality, just less Microsoft and Google crap) | 17:28 |
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| the_mgt | I hope they fix that in sailfish 2.0. I am also wondering how the whole bunch of macbook users in the company use their devices | 17:28 |
| ikarus | the_mgt: Jolla uses a fully valid MTP implementation | 17:29 |
| ikarus | Those same mac users can't use Android or Windows phones if their OS is that b0rked | 17:29 |
| the_mgt | there is a windows phone app in app store | 17:29 |
| ikarus | Google since Android 3.0 and Microsoft on all recent phones have used MTP instead of USB MSD | 17:29 |
| the_mgt | and the fully valid MTP does not work with OSX 10.10.x | 17:29 |
| TCJ | If you had a microSD card installed, could you mount that using linux/bsd? | 17:30 |
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| ikarus | TCJ: if you'd add the USB MSD gadget driver, sure (it exists for Linux, it's just not included) | 17:30 |
| TCJ | ikarus: 9p... is that from the Plan 9 OS? | 17:31 |
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| the_mgt | ikarus: https://together.jolla.com/question/282/usb-file-transfer-support-for-mac-os-x/ | 17:35 |
| TCJ | Well, it looks like a pretty cool phone... any general feedback on use? Battery life? Use of android apps? Random reboots? | 17:35 |
| TCJ | I'm sick to death of my Nexus 5 randomly rebooting and having a *crap* battery life... this seems like an interesting alternative to me! | 17:36 |
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| Nicd- | what do you consider as crap battery life? | 17:39 |
| Nicd- | random reboots happen to some people, related to the hardware. dunno if new handsets have those fixed | 17:40 |
| the_mgt | battery life depends on your usage. if you use it like a feature/dumb phone, about 2-3 days. with heavy web usage one day, maybe more. with added bluetooth till evening | 17:40 |
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| xkr47 | heh using rsync to transfer files over ssh used <30% of cpu but despite being connected over usb the net consumption was over 1000mW.. when I suspended the rsync command (Ctrl-Z) the consumption dropped to -1100mW | 17:47 |
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| TCJ | Nicd-: lasting less than a work day, with little to no use throughout the day | 18:10 |
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| ikarus | TCJ: why yes, it is from plan9 | 18:17 |
| ikarus | it also is the only sanely designed and super simplistic, modern filetransfer protocol | 18:17 |
| TCJ | ikarus: Cool. That whole system looks very neat and minimalist, but I could never get it to install properly on whatever laptop/hardware I had lying around. I should re-examine and try again! | 18:19 |
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| ryukafalz | always funny when I see plan9 discussion in here :P | 18:23 |
| ryukafalz | I've been playing aroung with it a bit lately | 18:24 |
| ikarus | TCJ: well, I am borrowing ideas from it, not so much the whole thing | 18:24 |
| ikarus | 9p is insanely nice | 18:24 |
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| TCJ | ryukafalz: What sort of working hardware setup do you have? VM? | 18:27 |
| ryukafalz | TCJ: Been working mostly with a VM, but I do have a Thinkpad X60 that I can run it on | 18:27 |
| TCJ | ryukafalz: It doesn't bork on the video card? | 18:27 |
| ryukafalz | there's no option to adjust mouse speed though so I need to poke at the mouse driver a bit to make it comfortable | 18:28 |
| ryukafalz | nope, though I've been using plan9front mostly - thinkpad x60 works out of the box | 18:29 |
| ryukafalz | not sure about labs 9 | 18:29 |
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| mornfall | the_mgt: with 3G while traveling, about 8 hours | 18:34 |
| ryukafalz | ikarus: Linux already has built-in 9p support through v9fs, correct? Seems like it'd make 9p file transfer not too difficult. | 18:35 |
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| ikarus | ryukafalz: yup, I am just redirecting that over USB as both host and client | 18:36 |
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| ryukafalz | Sounds simple enough. You can already do networking over USB too so... yeah | 18:37 |
| * ryukafalz actually isn't sure how that bit's implemented though | 18:37 | |
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| TCJ | ryukafalz: Did not know about this plan9front fork.. thanks! | 18:40 |
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| ikarus | ryukafalz: I am implementing 9p as a seperate endpoint, not tunneled over ethernet | 18:40 |
| ikarus | super low overhead and highspeed results | 18:41 |
| ryukafalz | ikarus: Aha, okay, that makes it a bit trickier. Looking forward to see how that works :) | 18:41 |
| ryukafalz | s/see/seeing/ | 18:41 |
| ikarus | yup | 18:42 |
| ikarus | main goal is to provide an open, free and sane replacement for MTP in all cases (so including Android stuff) | 18:42 |
| ryukafalz | That sounds great, though would only work on Linux in the meantime, heh | 18:43 |
| ryukafalz | though... I wonder if it would work on a native plan 9 system as well :P | 18:43 |
| ikarus | ryukafalz: well, the client can be implemented on MacOS X and Windows using libusb and fuse, or atleast that is the plan | 18:43 |
| ryukafalz | Oh, true - is there a FUSE implementation of 9p? | 18:44 |
| ikarus | if not I'll also hack up that | 18:44 |
| ikarus | the protocol is just that simple | 18:44 |
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| ryukafalz | I should give it a try sometime | 18:44 |
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| ryukafalz | I need to look into how it handles authentication though | 18:45 |
| ryukafalz | might be worth replacing my local NFS server with something that speaks 9p (NFS is such a kludge) | 18:46 |
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| cvp_ | \O | 19:38 |
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| falfa | wait, does jolla include nfs mount option? | 20:55 |
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| ryukafalz | falfa: Even if it doesn't, you should be able to drop to a terminal and mount a share :) | 23:42 |
| ryukafalz | actually, not sure if nfs client is in the repos though | 23:43 |
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