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| RavenholmDX | Hey dudes | 03:41 |
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| coderus | https://together.jolla.com/question/67535/accept-device-recover-in-different-country-than-was-bought/ | 07:55 |
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| Stskeeps | ugh, that's a complex topic.. especially when sometimes the sold price of a device (in general) is lower as the distributor takes on the duty of warranty repairs for it | 07:56 |
| Stskeeps | so a local distributor may not want to take anything in that it hasn't gotten paid for | 07:57 |
| Stskeeps | that's just my view of how consumer markets work, not necessarily how jolla works | 07:57 |
| Morpog_PC | well, it shouldn't be like that in the beginning :D | 07:57 |
| Stskeeps | but that's usually the issue | 07:57 |
| Stskeeps | there are times i wish i had also studied more business school related topics to fully comprehend that side of things | 07:58 |
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| coderus | my first point is simple: peoples are traveling. and if something happened with Jolla Phone in other country you can't repair it for warranty in this country, you need to wait until you return to home, and then send it to repair. | 08:03 |
| coderus | it's not a real issue (yet?) somebody experiencing. | 08:04 |
| sharpneli | Stskeeps: How about inside EU? Cannot that be defined as being a limitation for the free flow of goods and people? | 08:04 |
| Morpog_PC | isn't inside the EU already finland the only repair center? | 08:05 |
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| Stskeeps | sharpneli: shouldn't be a problem within EU; but as an example, DNA wouldn't take jolla.com repairs | 08:06 |
| Stskeeps | so it's about distributors i think | 08:06 |
| Stskeeps | your warranty is with the company that sold you it, isn't it? (i'm not remotely an expert on consumer laws) | 08:07 |
| Morpog_PC | thats 2 pairs | 08:07 |
| Morpog_PC | at least in germany | 08:07 |
| sharpneli | Yeah it is. In order to avoid the situation when the seller just says "Contact the manufacturer, we don't care" | 08:08 |
| r0kk3rz | coderus: i just fixed mine in a pub whilst travelling | 08:10 |
| Morpog_PC | we have Garantie (warranty), which is provided voluntarily by the company (usually 1 to 5 years), and we have the "gewährleistung" which is 2 years by law | 08:10 |
| r0kk3rz | but it is unfortunate to have any device need fixing whilst on holiday, but usual protocol should apply I would suspect | 08:10 |
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| r0kk3rz | send phone via post to care | 08:10 |
| Stskeeps | some companies have worldwide warranty as a perk/quality of their product | 08:11 |
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| Stskeeps | which makes people pay more for it | 08:11 |
| Morpog_PC | like Nokia | 08:11 |
| Morpog_PC | back in the days | 08:11 |
| r0kk3rz | i got offered that with my new laptop | 08:11 |
| r0kk3rz | but i couldnt be bothered paying for it, despite the fact that I do a lot of travelling as of late | 08:12 |
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| r0kk3rz | I dont see any reason for Jolla to deny warranty claims for specific countries though, dont they mostly all get serviced in finland anyway? | 08:14 |
| r0kk3rz | i guess they might have a local supplier in india and hk | 08:15 |
| Stskeeps | since warranty is built into the price it also explains how some handsets drop to so low price, since they practically don't do any warranty.. | 08:15 |
| Morpog_PC | yep | 08:15 |
| tbr | r0kk3rz: there are also other aspects of legal liability. If you accept a warranty repair from the US, does that mean that you acknowledge the US as a market and now are open to be sued for patent infringements there? | 08:15 |
| Morpog_PC | lets forget the US :D | 08:16 |
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| r0kk3rz | i figured it must be some legal bullshit like that tbr | 08:16 |
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| tbr | you can replace the US with other countries, same difference | 08:16 |
| tbr | you can replace patent infringement with other legal issues, same difference | 08:16 |
| Morpog_PC | just no insane patent systems | 08:16 |
| r0kk3rz | certification issues, sales contract law of that specific country | 08:17 |
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| tbr | in the end it's less than satisfactory for the customer as it's not intuitively understood. While for the manufacturer and distribution channels it's a legal and calculatory mess. | 08:17 |
| tbr | people very often think: if product X fails the manufacturer should fix it. In many jurisdictions that's not the case, by default it's the seller of the item who is your legal point of contact. (let's not go into the tangential topics of manufacturer voluntary warranty etc) | 08:18 |
| r0kk3rz | sounds like there should be some international treaty stating that issues regarding the purchase of products are bound to the country that initiated the contract | 08:19 |
| r0kk3rz | no matter where you are | 08:19 |
| sharpneli | Remember south american warranty laws! | 08:19 |
| sharpneli | Toshiba sold a laptop with text that it has warranty in south america and caribbean islands | 08:20 |
| sharpneli | And then refused warranty because it was printed there "by mistake" :D | 08:20 |
| sharpneli | And that's legal in Brazil at the very least | 08:20 |
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| Stskeeps | tbr: and let's add the obligations of the GPL on top of that.. | 08:22 |
| tbr | yeah, that's "fun" | 08:23 |
| sharpneli | What's the issue with GPL? | 08:23 |
| tbr | with GPL it's also always the seller that's responsible for compliance | 08:23 |
| sharpneli | Yes. But it doesn't mean the seller must send you the sources personally or maintain webpage personally | 08:24 |
| tbr | which can lead to very exasperated lawyers with ISPs if you ask them for the GPL compliance of the router they just "sold" you with your internet connection | 08:24 |
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| tbr | frantic pointing at some chinese manufacturer usually ensues | 08:24 |
| sharpneli | Yes. And as long as that chinese manufacturer has the sources available it's all good. | 08:25 |
| tbr | sharpneli: technically it does | 08:25 |
| tbr | it's all good if you agree to get it that way | 08:25 |
| tbr | you _can_ insist on the seller providing it to you | 08:25 |
| tbr | it's their legal obligation and there is no excuse | 08:25 |
| sharpneli | tbr: You can insist on them sending a dvd to you or similar with the sources | 08:26 |
| sharpneli | But it doesn't matter if it's the seller or you guys | 08:26 |
| tbr | correct | 08:26 |
| sharpneli | I don't think it would stand in court "This letter with dvd was sent from wrong address!" | 08:26 |
| tbr | how the seller does it is their problem, but it's THEIR obligation to arrange it | 08:26 |
| sharpneli | Sure | 08:26 |
| sharpneli | And for easy compliance Jolla just has to guarantee to the sellers that "We'll provide the sources, just inform us the addresses of the persons who demand them" | 08:27 |
| tbr | what will stand in court is: "seller refused to give me sources, pointed to manufacturer, manufacturer is in china and doesn't want to talk to me" | 08:27 |
| sharpneli | Sure | 08:27 |
| tbr | although the last bit is PURELY optional | 08:27 |
| tbr | there is no legal obligation for me to honor the "talk to the manufacturer" statement | 08:27 |
| sharpneli | Yap. But that just means the seller has to talk to the manufacturer on your behalf | 08:28 |
| tbr | no they have to talk on their own behalf, it's _their_ legal responsibility. | 08:28 |
| r0kk3rz | it should be a manufacturer responsibillity, theres a lot of work there for all resellers to verify various licence compliance with all products they sell | 08:28 |
| r0kk3rz | lawyers wet dream i think | 08:28 |
| tbr | r0kk3rz: there are very good reasons for it being that way | 08:29 |
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| tbr | e.g. the manufacturer might have gone out of business. this does NOT absolve the seller from the obligation. | 08:30 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah thats true | 08:30 |
| tbr | in the end open source licenses are just another instance of software licensing and compliance | 08:31 |
| tbr | they are a bit specific as they have requirements pertaining to the source code, but in the bigger picture it's just "compliance" | 08:31 |
| tbr | and that's what any distributor should have an IPR department for | 08:31 |
| tbr | if the company is good, then they will just have a legal folder for every product they ever sold and it will e.g. contain EULA and other stuff and in case of products that use OSS it will contain the necessary files. | 08:34 |
| tbr | so technically I find it amusing that I'm pretty much the only one who persistently and for every release requests the sailfish GPL et al. drops. | 08:36 |
| tbr | I'd expect distributors to ask for at the very least the drop corresponding to each factory image that was used for shipments they received | 08:36 |
| r0kk3rz | haha | 08:36 |
| tbr | I'm rather sure they didn't | 08:37 |
| r0kk3rz | i suspect some lazy paging algorithm is going on there | 08:37 |
| tbr | also the fact that I host those is mere kindness. technically everyone is entitled to ask jolla or their distributor. (I'm not sure if the legal obligation transfers to jolla if the device installs an OTA upgrade) | 08:38 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: online distribution counts | 08:38 |
| Stskeeps | afaik | 08:38 |
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| Stskeeps | if people were to be really pedantic, we'd be left with nobody being able to distribute gpl software, there'll always be situations like 'can't find sources matching that binary i built' | 08:39 |
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| r0kk3rz | i guess its not really easy to verify that the sources given truly are the complete sources for the blob | 08:41 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: well... we've all been there, but I'd rather recommend to avoid that situation like the plague. | 08:41 |
| tbr | people did actually get into legal trouble over such things | 08:41 |
| tbr | r0kk3rz: matching file hashes help a lot (yes doesn't work in all cases) | 08:41 |
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| r0kk3rz | http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/14/11/30/006233/a-rift-in-oneplus-cyanogen-relationship << quick, get them on sailfish! | 08:43 |
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| jonwil | At least Jolla does the best they possibly can to comply with their obligations (in the form of actually publishing the code anytime they publish new binaries) | 09:04 |
| jonwil | Not like other companies that release binaries and dont release the source code for months if at all | 09:05 |
| jonwil | with questions about whether the source is complete or matching | 09:05 |
| jonwil | Its not like complying with the licenses for the few source-release-required Android packages (kernel etc) is that hard for a big company like HTC or Motorola... | 09:06 |
| Stskeeps | (after tbr beats us with a stick) | 09:07 |
| tbr | hehe | 09:08 |
| tbr | jonwil: want to have fun? try to get sources for RockChip or MediaTek based devices | 09:09 |
| jonwil | does http://www.xda-developers.com/android/mediatek-android-one-source/ not count? :) | 09:10 |
| Stskeeps | not for all the thousand other mediatek devices out ther | 09:10 |
| Stskeeps | e:P | 09:10 |
| jonwil | Seems like (from that link) that its the OEMs at fault and not Mediatek as such | 09:11 |
| Stskeeps | the usual answer is that oems misunderstand the nda's given from mediatek | 09:11 |
| Stskeeps | understanding open source is something that is .. a bit in shortage in china | 09:11 |
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| jonwil | Yeah it seems like chinese OEMs are the worst when it comes to GPL violations | 09:12 |
| r0kk3rz | thats because nobody will sue them, because they have the protection of the PRC government most likely | 09:12 |
| Nc_ | Stskeeps, call me biased, but understanding Open Source is in a bit of a shortage in the western world too :( | 09:14 |
| Stskeeps | that's probably true too | 09:15 |
| r0kk3rz | that and theres a bit of a lack of a watchdog with teeth | 09:16 |
| Nc_ | and I honestly think the Chinese just don't care - is not that they are protected by the PRC, they just have a systemic look on things, where IP and IP theft is not even considered half the time | 09:16 |
| r0kk3rz | an organisation that will go the whole 9 yards for OSS licences | 09:16 |
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| jonwil | If I was someone involved in this, I would be pressuring retailers who sell products that violate GPL (including and especially any phone carriers who do it). If a retailer sells a device containing a copy of the latest Batman movie without permission, you can bet Warner Brothers will pull out the legal big guns to get the retailer to pull the produce from shelves. If we had people in the... | 09:18 |
| jonwil | ...OSS community going after retailers, the retailers might then do more to pressure the OEMs. | 09:18 |
| jonwil | That said, I believe the kernel community in particular doesn't want to be too legally agressive lest it lead to a wholesale shift to a non-GPL kernel | 09:18 |
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| jonwil | And I can see where they might be comming from. I remember at least one big company (Sony maybe) calling for a non-GPL replacement for busybox due to the agressive GPL enforcement of the busybox team. | 09:21 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah but there are more permissive licences available if thats the teams choice | 09:23 |
| Stskeeps | btw, this may be of interest to some of you: http://www.amazon.com/Platform-Embedded-Security-Technology-Revealed-ebook/dp/B00K6N4JU8/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=8-1&qid=1417339322 | 09:23 |
| r0kk3rz | unless they are bound to the gpl for other reasons, like they pull from other gpl projects | 09:23 |
| Stskeeps | (0$ on kindle) | 09:24 |
| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: if only I had a swindle | 09:24 |
| Stskeeps | i gave up and went for convienience on this one | 09:25 |
| r0kk3rz | wonder if you can download it via a kindle app | 09:25 |
| Stskeeps | you can | 09:25 |
| Stskeeps | i don't have a kindle. just apps | 09:25 |
| Stskeeps | i gave up and went for convienience on this particular matter. i got so tired of moving books around | 09:25 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 09:25 |
| Nc_ | Kindle App for Jolla Tablet? :p | 09:25 |
| jonwil | well I do know kernel developers (Linux at least) have said they dont like GPLv3 for some reason | 09:25 |
| Stskeeps | Nc_: i dearly hope so.. at least android support | 09:26 |
| sharpneli | GPLv3 requires the user to be able to actually replace the software on the device | 09:26 |
| sharpneli | Which can be hard on devices with just ROM | 09:26 |
| Stskeeps | btw, as a heads up, i'm hoping to post a blog post where we try to get a conversation going on bootloader/security/etc on tablet.. hope many of you will participate so we end up with a great solution | 09:27 |
| Stskeeps | i want to be able to forget my tablet in a bar, but still be able to hack it with my own OS stuff.. :P | 09:27 |
| Nc_ | easy enough: Step 1, buy your own bar ... | 09:28 |
| Stskeeps | amsterdam bar in helsinki would be high on that list, at least.. | 09:28 |
| Nc_ | "amsterdam bar in helsinki" ? | 09:29 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. | 09:29 |
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| Stskeeps | it sounds confusing but makes a lot of sense when you see where jolla office is.. | 09:29 |
| Nc_ | ah | 09:29 |
| r0kk3rz | oh its over that side of hel | 09:30 |
| r0kk3rz | fair enough | 09:30 |
| kimmoli | yes, they will just bring that back to jolla office to you | 09:30 |
| Nc_ | and yes - I'm thinking Amsterdam is cool and all, but not sure that coolness transfers ... legally ... | 09:30 |
| sharpneli | Amsterdam bar <3 | 09:30 |
| r0kk3rz | sounds like its on the list next time im in hel | 09:31 |
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| * Nc_ really ought to get around to visiting Helsinki | 09:31 | |
| r0kk3rz | Nc_: and finland in general, its a cool place | 09:32 |
| Nc_ | you misspelled "cold" ;) | 09:32 |
| r0kk3rz | make sure you get outside of helsinki though | 09:32 |
| kimmoli | :) | 09:32 |
| r0kk3rz | its not always cold, was 30c+ every day when i was there in may | 09:32 |
| Nc_ | I think we're supposed to visit Muumiland at some point - does that count as "outside of Helsinki"? | 09:33 |
| kimmoli | yes | 09:34 |
| r0kk3rz | moominland, isnt that outside tampere? | 09:34 |
| tbr | there is a museum in tampere | 09:35 |
| tbr | the amusement park is near turku in naantali IIRC | 09:35 |
| r0kk3rz | ah turku, the other place I went | 09:35 |
| Nc_ | :) | 09:35 |
| tbr | aka a** of finland ;) | 09:35 |
| Nc_ | But yeah - next time I'm in Tallinn, will see if I can find time+time to go to Finland with the family | 09:35 |
| r0kk3rz | i didnt go, because us auswegians seem to have missed the whole moomin family thing | 09:35 |
| r0kk3rz | i had never heard of it before entering finland | 09:36 |
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| r0kk3rz | ive heard good things about tallinn | 09:37 |
| Nc_ | Definitely worth a visit | 09:38 |
| Nc_ | Though, if you come via the Finland ferry, don't follow the crowds, or all you'll see is the alcohol-section at Rocca Al Mare, before heading back to Finland (... ahem) | 09:39 |
| r0kk3rz | oh right | 09:39 |
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| r0kk3rz | its definitely on my list | 09:39 |
| Nc_ | go to Vanalinn, find the restaurant called Olde Hansa, order the Divine Leg of Pork (eisbein) and a jug of honeyed beer :) | 09:40 |
| r0kk3rz | divine leg of pork | 09:41 |
| r0kk3rz | sounds like a german pork knuckle | 09:41 |
| r0kk3rz | but im sure its not | 09:41 |
| Nc_ | yes, it is pretty much the same, but served differently | 09:42 |
| kimmoli | mmm eisbein | 09:43 |
| r0kk3rz | pork knuckle is pretty good | 09:46 |
| r0kk3rz | one of the pubs in tasmania used to cook them around oktoberfest time | 09:46 |
| r0kk3rz | and it became something of a yearly tradition with my group of friends | 09:47 |
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| lainwir3d | hi | 10:02 |
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| stephg | ello also | 10:05 |
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| jonwil | I wish there were places in my neck of the woods doing awesome or different food :( | 10:32 |
| jonwil | But I always seem to end up at the same places like KFC | 10:33 |
| jonwil | or Krispy Kreme donuts | 10:33 |
| jonwil | or Subway | 10:33 |
| jonwil | Going to Scandinavia is on my bucket list though, so many cool things come from that part of the world :) | 10:35 |
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| r0kk3rz | jonwil: its quite refreshing from an australian perspective | 10:38 |
| r0kk3rz | although I have yet to go to real scandinavia eg sweden/norway/denmark | 10:39 |
| jonwil | If only there was a way the Scandinavians could send some of their some of their weather to where I am, its too hot/humid here in Brisbane :( | 10:40 |
| jonwil | I can almost feel my arm sticking to my desk... | 10:41 |
| Nc_ | jonwil, meanwhile, there has been an ongoing campaign here in Belgium to get even just 1 KFC to open :) | 10:41 |
| raa700 | ~0 celcius for the last few weeks, mist and rain combined with 10 hours of daylight | 10:41 |
| jonwil | rain would be great | 10:42 |
| jonwil | and I can handle 0 celcius, that's what jackets and jumpers are for | 10:42 |
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| jonwil | This heat and humidity wouldn't be so bad except that the only cooling option I have in my rental apartment is a pedestal fan | 10:43 |
| jonwil | no ceiling fans or air-conditioers | 10:44 |
| r0kk3rz | ive seen rain in brisvegas | 10:45 |
| r0kk3rz | quite a lot of it infact | 10:45 |
| jonwil | yep we do get it | 10:45 |
| r0kk3rz | but yeah, humidity is the worst | 10:45 |
| r0kk3rz | 30c+ and crisp air is where its at | 10:45 |
| jonwil | like what happened the other day when some of our train stations looked more like canals than railway lines | 10:45 |
| r0kk3rz | although remember to bring the sunscreen | 10:45 |
| jonwil | I spent most of my life in Perth where the temps can reach 45 or more | 10:46 |
| r0kk3rz | but the finnish sun isnt as brutal as the tasmanian sun | 10:46 |
| jonwil | but its always dry heat, never humidity | 10:46 |
| jonwil | hence why Queensland is such a shock to me | 10:46 |
| r0kk3rz | i nearly died in singapore | 10:47 |
| r0kk3rz | and i was only there for 2 days | 10:47 |
| jonwil | That said, on those really bad days I can either go to some location with air conditioning (shops, library, whatever) | 10:47 |
| r0kk3rz | with near ubiquitous aircon | 10:47 |
| jonwil | or I can go to see my family and take advantage of their nice swimming pool :) | 10:47 |
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| locusf | Are there any implications on using Jolla without accepting the user agreement and installing a free software operating system on it? | 15:30 |
| Yaniel | your problem if you brick it | 15:31 |
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| r0kk3rz | locusf: maybe warranty issues, but otherwise no | 15:36 |
| locusf | http://fsfe.org/freesoftware/legal/flashingdevices.en.html | 15:42 |
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| TemeV | locusf: if you break the hw with faulty sw you can keep the both pieces | 15:43 |
| locusf | TemeV: true :) | 15:44 |
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| locusf | http://pastie.org/9752263 <- non-conclusive licenses of Jolla packages from 1.1.0.39 | 17:17 |
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| TemeV | [D | 17:18 |
| TemeV | oops | 17:18 |
| TemeV | locusf: http://monster.tspre.org/~carsten/oss-vs-nonoss.png | 17:18 |
| tbr | that's interesting, now it would be the next to compare to Stskeeps list | 17:18 |
| tbr | yes that one | 17:18 |
| locusf | tbr: do you wan't me to do a negation of that? | 17:19 |
| locusf | eg. the more permissively licensed packages | 17:19 |
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| tbr | locusf: yes, that would also be interesting | 17:21 |
| tbr | locusf: because then one could compare that to the GPL dump | 17:21 |
| locusf | hrhm I tried a negation on grep but it still printed the Propietaries and TBD licenses | 17:22 |
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| locusf | tbr: http://pastie.org/9752284 | 17:24 |
| locusf | remember this is non-conclusive, the package license doesn't tell about the separate files license or the availability of the package to the general public | 17:25 |
| locusf | my Nemo installation Proprietaries: http://pastie.org/9752284 | 17:26 |
| locusf | erh this one: | 17:26 |
| Venemo_j | is there a way to check the core temperature of the jolla? | 17:26 |
| locusf | http://pastie.org/9752259 | 17:26 |
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| tbr | locusf: yeah silica most famously having permissively licensed QML but "TBD" on the rest | 17:31 |
| locusf | tbr: interestingly some of the core applications also have TBD | 17:33 |
| tbr | yeah, I wouldn't get my hopes up, as the bottom line is, even if it says "TBD" that MUST be read as "proprietary" | 17:34 |
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| locusf | yes | 17:34 |
| tbr | which reminds me, what's the agenda for the tuesday meeting? I didn't see anything good yet | 17:35 |
| * tbr goes to create a TJC item and mail the list | 17:35 | |
| r0kk3rz | tbr isnt it just a big FOSS rant meeting? | 17:35 |
| tbr | r0kk3rz: I'm going to make bloody sure it doesn't get out of hand, even if that means acting against my own position in the discussion | 17:38 |
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| tbr | I do think there is still a lot to be said on both sides and more understanding can be gained (also from the things that Jolla won't say) | 17:39 |
| r0kk3rz | would certainly be more productive if there is a clear schedule of sorts | 17:39 |
| Venemo_j | tbr: what meeting? | 17:39 |
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| tbr | Venemo_j: see minutes of last tuesday's meeting | 17:39 |
| r0kk3rz | also helps Jolla prepare statements for specific topics | 17:39 |
| tbr | r0kk3rz: hence me taking to TJC now | 17:40 |
| Venemo_j | tbr: sorry, could you gimme a link? | 17:40 |
| tbr | http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-11-25-15.00.html | 17:41 |
| Venemo_j | thanks | 17:42 |
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| Venemo_j | tbr: so is it at 15:00 utc? | 17:45 |
| r0kk3rz | Venemo_j: best to read the full log, particularly at the end | 17:45 |
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| Venemo_j | r0kk3rz: oh, is it actually interesting? | 17:45 |
| r0kk3rz | i found it interesting | 17:45 |
| r0kk3rz | particularly stskeeps prepared statement of sorts, broadly states jollas position on open sourcing things | 17:46 |
| tbr | yes that's recommended reading | 17:49 |
| tbr | also the later discussion | 17:49 |
| Venemo_j | mmhm | 17:49 |
| Venemo_j | but my question is, is the next one also on tuesday 15 utc? | 17:50 |
| locusf | hmm where is the | 17:52 |
| locusf | libhybris-sbj-libhardware <- source code | 17:52 |
| locusf | its listed as Apache 2.0 | 17:52 |
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| locusf | ah its part of libhybris codes | 17:54 |
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| tbr | Venemo_j: yes it is | 18:04 |
| Venemo_j | thanks tbr | 18:04 |
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| tbr | https://together.jolla.com/question/67668/additional-sailfishos-community-meeting-on-irc-2014-12-02t1500-utc/ - please let me know if I missed something in the wording? | 18:04 |
| Venemo_j | tbr: may I attend? | 18:04 |
| tbr | Venemo_j: I'll be disappointed if you don't! | 18:04 |
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| Venemo_j | tbr: :P | 18:05 |
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| tbr | so please let me know here if there is anything about the tjc topic, if there isn't anything to add I'll push it to the mailing list too | 18:05 |
| Venemo_j | sorry, can't | 18:05 |
| tbr | noooo :( | 18:06 |
| Venemo_j | if I open that link, my jolla will kill the IRC app and the media app | 18:06 |
| Venemo_j | when I disconnected earlier, it was because I opened something in the browser and the OS killed IRC | 18:07 |
| tbr | too bad | 18:07 |
| tbr | let me paste the text | 18:07 |
| tbr | monologue warning! | 18:08 |
| tbr | During the last meeting the topic of Jolla and its relation to the open source community exceeded the allocated time slot. Hence it was decided to hold a separate meeting one week later: Tuesday, 2014-12-02T15:00 UTC | 18:08 |
| tbr | I (Thomas, a community member) have been asked to chair the meeting and am hereby soliciting input for the agenda. Please post your proposed agenda items as answers to this topic. As the general topic is complex and discussions tend to require time, I am reserving up to 90 minutes and will allow a maximum of 3 main topics and possibly some smaller topics, if it is evident that they won't need more than 5-10min each. Should the number of valid to | 18:08 |
| tbr | Please state clearly the area you want to see discussed and if you will be available to bring your point to the table on IRC. | 18:08 |
| tbr | As this is a continuation of a complex issue, before commenting or answering this post you are expected to have at least read the full log of the open source time slot of last weeks meeting, also if you participated in the meeting. I reserve the right to, at the least, ignore comments and answers where the person hasn't done so. | 18:08 |
| tbr | I hope for plenty of participants both from the community and from Jolla, as I firmly believe that both sides still have a lot to learn and great things can come from such meetings (cf. Jolla's very open approach about tablet development, most prominently hinted by @Stskeeps during the meeting). | 18:08 |
| tbr | I hope it didn't chop of the main paragraph | 18:08 |
| Venemo_j | reading now | 18:08 |
| Venemo_j | I think your wording is excellent | 18:09 |
| Venemo_j | polite, motivating, and to the point | 18:10 |
| Venemo_j | tbr: so thumbs up | 18:12 |
| tbr | I'm being a bit tough on the "you must read" bit, but I'm trying to make it positive | 18:13 |
| tbr | if people don't read it there will be no progress | 18:13 |
| Venemo_j | +1 on that | 18:13 |
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| pvanhoof | Somebody knows when the tablet is for sale? Or is it already for sale? | 18:42 |
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| tbr | it's on indiegogo for "pledge" aka preorder | 18:42 |
| tbr | it will go on sale probably after the first batch starts shipping in may? | 18:42 |
| pvanhoof | aha ok | 18:43 |
| pvanhoof | on preorder i can get it before i guess.. | 18:44 |
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| tbr | the preorders are to ship in may AFAIU | 18:47 |
| pvanhoof | aha ok | 18:47 |
| tbr | https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/jolla-tablet-world-s-first-crowdsourced-tablet/ | 18:47 |
| pvanhoof | i wonder if i can convince the guys to send me a proto :) | 18:47 |
| tbr | if you have $very_good_reasons - who knows | 18:48 |
| pvanhoof | i don't, tracker probably just works on it | 18:48 |
| pvanhoof | bleh :) | 18:48 |
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| walokra | tbr: are topics about harbour considere? like this in tjc: https://together.jolla.com/question/53690/harbour-more-statistics-and-rest-api/ | 18:52 |
| tbr | from what we've heard so far it's going to be the same sailfishOS for both devices at the core, so probably no big tracker work. :) | 18:52 |
| walokra | have read the meeting logs but either have missed or there haven't been any new news about better harbour | 18:52 |
| tbr | walokra: how does that fit in the open source (strict) theme? | 18:53 |
| walokra | tbr: that's why I asked. kind of how to support and motivate developers :) | 18:53 |
| tbr | walokra: in my opinion your topic is tangential at best and should rather be proposed for the next regular meeting. | 18:54 |
| walokra | yep, have to remember to suggest that topic on regular meeting | 18:54 |
| tbr | do it now on the TJC item for that | 18:54 |
| walokra | tjc is confusing | 18:55 |
| tbr | https://together.jolla.com/question/54157/sailfishos-open-source-collaboration-meeting-planning/ | 18:55 |
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| Venemo_j | tjc is only confusing if you never used things like stackoverflow before | 18:58 |
| walokra | it would need some option to ignore some topics (without ignoring tags) | 19:00 |
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| r0kk3rz | Venemo_j: that and lots of people dont use it properly | 19:06 |
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| stephg | evening guys | 19:48 |
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| stephg | tbr great you have the topic up | 19:48 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: Thanks a lot for taking care of organizing the meeting! :) | 19:50 |
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| hasdf | Hello, anybody got TextSecure running? | 20:05 |
| Venemo_j_ | what's that? | 20:06 |
| pdanek | Hey, what's the best offline navigation on Jolla? | 20:07 |
| Nicd- | pdanek: HERE beta | 20:08 |
| r0kk3rz | pdanek: ^^, android app unfortunately | 20:08 |
| hasdf | TextSecure is a client2client encrypted messanger for android. https://whispersystems.org/ | 20:08 |
| pdanek | Nicd-: r0kk3rz: Does it support car navigation? | 20:10 |
| pdanek | Highways etc. | 20:10 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah | 20:10 |
| pdanek | Is it for sure offline? | 20:10 |
| Venemo_j_ | mhm | 20:11 |
| r0kk3rz | its pretty good, download the apk from the nokia website | 20:11 |
| hasdf | ok other question ;) If i install google play store, do (push) updates work? | 20:11 |
| pdanek | I will be in roaming zone, I can't download 10m maps on the go :D | 20:11 |
| r0kk3rz | you need to pre-download maps | 20:11 |
| pdanek | I can't find it in G. Play | 20:11 |
| pdanek | hm | 20:11 |
| r0kk3rz | its not on gplay | 20:12 |
| pdanek | :O | 20:12 |
| r0kk3rz | download from nokia website | 20:12 |
| pdanek | ok | 20:12 |
| pdanek | map pre-download will be from app directly? | 20:12 |
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| r0kk3rz | http://here.com/beta/android/?lang=en-GB | 20:13 |
| pdanek | hmmm | 20:13 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah | 20:13 |
| pdanek | HERE Drive+ vs HERE Maps? | 20:13 |
| r0kk3rz | the android app does both | 20:13 |
| pdanek | cool, thx! | 20:13 |
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| pdanek | Why is it better than Google Maps? | 20:17 |
| pdanek | Google Maps coverage in CZ is pretty solid. | 20:18 |
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| anonfriese | it's completely offline - including the navigation | 20:18 |
| anonfriese | otherwise - i guess it's kinda comparable. i prefer the voices & car navigation on here, but that's mostly personal taste | 20:19 |
| anonfriese | also: it's not google (if that's a plus for you) ;) | 20:19 |
| Nicd- | and it works without google play | 20:19 |
| M4rtinK | I think OsmAnd should also work | 20:20 |
| Tegu | err örr, why does the here android beta want to be able to send sms's? or read the call log and contacts? shoo | 20:21 |
| anonfriese | think the contacts thing is for enabling navigation directly | 20:22 |
| pdanek | hmmmm | 20:22 |
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| anonfriese | also there's that glympse stuff, where you can share your location with contacts - but you can dactivate that | 20:22 |
| pdanek | It doesn't allow downloading maps on SD card? | 20:22 |
| pdanek | Android layer can't see SD card? | 20:23 |
| anonfriese | yeah, but there was sth. on tjc recently regarding setting up btrfs so you can | 20:23 |
| anonfriese | didn't try it yet, i only need germany maps and they are sth. under 1gig | 20:23 |
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| Nicd- | M4rtinK: OSM doesn't cut it though | 20:25 |
| M4rtinK | you mean the app or data coverage ? | 20:26 |
| Nicd- | the data | 20:27 |
| M4rtinK | coverage really depends on your area | 20:27 |
| pdanek | Thx all, downloading! | 20:27 |
| M4rtinK | that is for sure | 20:27 |
| M4rtinK | in my case it is the other way around | 20:27 |
| Nicd- | yeah, but you can't count on a navigator that works variably based on where you are going | 20:27 |
| M4rtinK | google coverage is passable | 20:27 |
| M4rtinK | but OSM has much more data | 20:27 |
| Nicd- | OSM is great in the cities and really detailed (better than most other maps), but when you get out of the city here it turns shit | 20:27 |
| M4rtinK | especially pedestrian, bike and field paths | 20:28 |
| hasdf | can I search sailfishos apps without having a jolla yet? | 20:28 |
| M4rtinK | then get to mapping :) | 20:28 |
| Nicd- | hasdf: openrepos has many, otherwise you can google. there's no way to search the store without a device | 20:28 |
| M4rtinK | and I mean it seriously - it is really not that hard and rather fun :) | 20:28 |
| Nicd- | yeah, I've drawn something | 20:28 |
| Nicd- | but that doesn't fix the problem | 20:28 |
| M4rtinK | yeah | 20:29 |
| M4rtinK | I thing it is best to combine both | 20:29 |
| M4rtinK | at least for now :) | 20:29 |
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| Nicd- | I mainly use OSM for geocaching | 20:31 |
| Nicd- | it's the best map in the city area | 20:31 |
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| hasdf | damn why doesn't shipping to germany use rockets :D hate to wait 4 days | 20:44 |
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| Stskeeps | probably wouldn't be received very well if we started sending rockets towards germany.. | 20:45 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:45 |
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| Tegu | weird, I cannot copy anything anymore | 21:01 |
| Tegu | should probably boot, but is there anything that could be checked for debugging? | 21:02 |
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| Tegu | ards germany.. | 21:04 |
| Tegu | 22:45:21 < Stskeeps> :P | 21:04 |
| Tegu | sorry | 21:04 |
| Tegu | fail copy&paste arrempts. seems to work inside fingerterm. | 21:05 |
| Tegu | but not anywhere else | 21:05 |
| stephg | Tegu: failed how? buffer lost? wrong data? aliens etc.? | 21:13 |
| stephg | (or are you in fingerterm, or the IRC app or...) | 21:14 |
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| fennekki | aliens | 21:16 |
| fennekki | oh nevermind I thought this was a different channel | 21:16 |
| anYc | hasdf: imagine you have to send it back for repair... :/ | 21:17 |
| Tegu | stephg: I just tried to copypaste within fingerterm and it worked appparently | 21:17 |
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| FireFly | AFAIK the fingerterm clipboard is separate from the sailfish one | 21:17 |
| Tegu | but nothing can be copied in the ui | 21:18 |
| Tegu | if I try to select a browser url, it is not copied | 21:18 |
| stephg | and if you open, I dunno, the notes app the same? | 21:18 |
| Tegu | (and should have tried that paste in status window or something :P) | 21:19 |
| Tegu | tried notes, too. does not work | 21:19 |
| Tegu | any logs or something to save? else I'll just try rebooting :P | 21:20 |
| stephg | the fingerterm on the jolla is the old one, doesn't have any silica (afaiu) | 21:20 |
| stephg | Tegu: you could have a hunt around the journal | 21:21 |
| stephg | (become root, journalctl -a) | 21:21 |
| stephg | ^^ that'll be a bunch easier over ssh | 21:23 |
| stephg | but beyond that, yes a reboot will 'fix' it | 21:24 |
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| Tegu | yea, that log is loong | 21:25 |
| stephg | does sound like a bug tho | 21:26 |
| stephg | or certainly broken | 21:27 |
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| TemeV | Tegu: I had that once also. I assume restarting lipstick or maliit would fix that | 21:31 |
| TemeV | but booting is easier if uptime doesn't matter :) | 21:32 |
| kimmoli | uptime is futile... https://app.younited.com/?shareObject=fddab024-4afc-eac6-49e7-809192bb5f9e | 21:36 |
| stephg | kimmoli: 101 days is like 2 and a half updates ;) | 21:40 |
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| kimmoli | that is still at lake T | 21:42 |
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| stephg | wow cool | 21:43 |
| stephg | Tegu: just out of interest, btrfs fi sh / | 21:44 |
| stephg | (as root) | 21:44 |
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| stephg | (actually don't think the trailing slash is needed) | 21:44 |
| Tegu | what does it do? | 21:44 |
| Tegu | :D inb4 something like rm -rf / | 21:44 |
| stephg | free space on the filesystem | 21:44 |
| Tegu | yea rm -rf / lso frees space :P or was this the "btrfs getting full" problem | 21:46 |
| stephg | showing free space | 21:46 |
| stephg | not 'freeing space' ;) | 21:46 |
| stephg | for comparison: http://pastie.org/9752723 | 21:47 |
| stephg | completely a hunch | 21:48 |
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| stephg | and your problem is probably completely unrelated but I thought I'd ask | 21:48 |
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| Tegu | oh, great. now I just have to get the output here :D | 21:54 |
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| stephg | only the devid line is important | 21:56 |
| stephg | the values of 'size' and 'used' | 21:57 |
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| stephg | infact | 21:57 |
| stephg | Tegu: only 'used' | 21:57 |
| stephg | if it's ~= 'size' then that's not great | 21:57 |
| stephg | (but may be completely unrelated to your problem) | 21:58 |
| Tegu | ouch, size 13.75, used 12.75 | 21:58 |
| stephg | that's ok | 21:58 |
| Tegu | okay? how close it should be to bad | 21:59 |
| stephg | it's related to how btrfs allocates space for metadata | 22:00 |
| stephg | I'd need to RTFM but I have 256M in my head | 22:00 |
| Tegu | :D | 22:01 |
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| stephg | so for us ~ 13.5GB | 22:01 |
| stephg | btw what does your 'used' on the line above read | 22:01 |
| stephg | FS bytes used | 22:01 |
| Tegu | 5.62 | 22:02 |
| stephg | use alot of android apps? (just out of interest) | 22:02 |
| Tegu | humm, not soo much | 22:03 |
| Tegu | but some, yea | 22:04 |
| Tegu | does it affect btrfs somehow? | 22:06 |
| stephg | nothing more than anything else does | 22:07 |
| Tegu | or was it just unrelated to btrfs | 22:07 |
| Tegu | oki | 22:07 |
| stephg | but by default all the android storage lives on that subvolume | 22:07 |
| stephg | for apps and such | 22:07 |
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| stephg | so if you had alot of apps, each storing their data in a bazillion different ways as they're all different apps... | 22:08 |
| stephg | anyway | 22:08 |
| stephg | I had a look on TJC and couldn't see anything that looks like your prob, if I were you I'd open a topic there | 22:10 |
| Tegu | ah yea, maybe I should. could bea hard to reproduce, though | 22:11 |
| stephg | record it tho | 22:11 |
| stephg | it's important | 22:11 |
| stephg | and with that, bed-tiem | 22:12 |
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| Tegu | okay, good night, and thanks :) | 22:12 |
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| stephg | the reboot will sort it :) | 22:13 |
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| Tegu | yup | 22:14 |
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