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| M4rtinK | well the development bleeding edge (Fedora), stable/paid/supported (RHEL) and stable/free/unsupported (CentOS) is not a bad combination IMHO :) | 00:06 |
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| salyavin | I do like it, if it could work for Jolla great. We do get support from RHEL at work. Do you think that model could work on mobile? | 00:24 |
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| M4rtinK | Well no one really tried that yet, that's for sure. | 00:32 |
| M4rtinK | So it would be pretty #unlike, thus suitable for fulfilling Jollas motto. :) | 00:33 |
| M4rtinK | On the other hand I don't really see how completely open source Sailfish OS would change the _current_ situation. | 00:34 |
| M4rtinK | There are still no third parties licensing Sailfish OS. | 00:34 |
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| M4rtinK | so at least it could provide some goodwill in the open source community and some third party contributions | 00:35 |
| M4rtinK | while one can't really count on contributions beforehand | 00:36 |
| M4rtinK | I think people scratching their own itch could make *some* of those numerous feature requests and bug reports on Together disappear pretty quickly :) | 00:37 |
| M4rtinK | also, even if you opensource the whole thing, you still keep your trademarks | 00:37 |
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| M4rtinK | that plays a surprisingly important role actually :) | 00:38 |
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| salyavin | It would sure get a lot of warm feelings from me. I've always been dissapointed parts of Maemo and Harmattan and Sailfish are closed. | 01:07 |
| salyavin | That's why some opensource people stay with Android. | 01:07 |
| M4rtinK | yeah, have heard that from some people recently | 01:08 |
| M4rtinK | "What, it is not fully open ? Even Android is!" | 01:08 |
| M4rtinK | that is of course not fully true, even for AOSP and its development | 01:09 |
| M4rtinK | but still a kinda valid argument | 01:09 |
| salyavin | Yea it's valid. Not sure who is more open. If you use already installed on phone Android google services are possible closed as well. | 01:09 |
| salyavin | Jolla opened the browser and stuff which helped a little. | 01:10 |
| salyavin | If Ubuntu would multitask like Sailfish it would be tempting but they are not. | 01:11 |
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| salyavin | I always found the Android interface clunky and wanted a more normal linux environment. | 01:13 |
| M4rtinK | I think Ubuntu is a lost cause unfortunately | 01:13 |
| M4rtinK | and not even the mobile one | 01:13 |
| M4rtinK | *not just | 01:13 |
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| salyavin | Mir didn't make people happy | 01:14 |
| salyavin | Unity interface not as nice as I'd like. | 01:15 |
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| salyavin | Bq still might release a phone, Meizu seems to be putting a Flyme skin on it. | 01:16 |
| M4rtinK | also I think their QA is slipping | 01:16 |
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| M4rtinK | had some serious issues with on of the recent ubuntus | 01:17 |
| salyavin | I was not aware of that, I have not run Ubuntu for some time. | 01:17 |
| salyavin | They moved us to RHEL desktop at work of all things from Ubuntu. | 01:18 |
| M4rtinK | dont know about the very recent ones as I have since switched to Fedora :) | 01:18 |
| M4rtinK | RHEL6 ? :) | 01:19 |
| M4rtinK | probably too early for 7 yet :) | 01:19 |
| salyavin | lsb_release -i -r | 01:20 |
| salyavin | Distributor ID: RedHatEnterpriseWorkstation | 01:20 |
| salyavin | Release: 6.5 | 01:20 |
| salyavin | yea 6 it seems | 01:20 |
| salyavin | home I am one of those weird Gentoo people | 01:20 |
| M4rtinK | 6 might be a bit dated in comparison to recent distros | 01:21 |
| salyavin | It is. | 01:21 |
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| salyavin | Probably newer than Debian stable | 01:21 |
| M4rtinK | I think it really depends on what you need to do with it | 01:21 |
| M4rtinK | on the other hand it should be very stable :) | 01:21 |
| salyavin | had hibernate issues on our laptops for one. | 01:22 |
| salyavin | You're right with things as they are it wouldn't change much for Jolla if they opened everything. I hope they do, it would save me embarrasing explanations. | 01:23 |
| M4rtinK | if you have subscription then you should report it :) | 01:23 |
| M4rtinK | salyavin: exactly! | 01:24 |
| M4rtinK | it is really a bit embarassing sometimes | 01:24 |
| M4rtinK | I meet a lot of really open source friendly if not fundamentalistic people | 01:24 |
| M4rtinK | and they are sometimes quite put off when they find out it is not fully open | 01:25 |
| M4rtinK | and they are running a fully open source distro and software on their computers and work with opensource all day long | 01:26 |
| M4rtinK | so you can't really blame such opinions... | 01:26 |
| salyavin | yes, I am in that same situation with explanations. I've been into open software for 20 years so it causes me discomfort. | 01:27 |
| salyavin | Some who came to Jolla with the promise they would open it up actually left when they didn't. | 01:29 |
| salyavin | Overall such a customer base is quite small I am sure. | 01:29 |
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| M4rtinK | I would say you at least should not promise something you don't fullfill in the future | 01:33 |
| M4rtinK | or at least apologize and explain changed circumstances | 01:34 |
| M4rtinK | but there is a deafening silence for most of these questions from Jolla | 01:34 |
| M4rtinK | and now the marketing misstep with "proudly opensource", "change whatever you want" all over again in the tablet marketing | 01:35 |
| M4rtinK | while this was thankfully clarified in the latest community IRC meeting (unfortunatelly for the worse - it was really a marketing oops, not a real intention) | 01:36 |
| M4rtinK | there is still no official clarification | 01:36 |
| M4rtinK | which I think can make some pretty pissed | 01:36 |
| M4rtinK | and I also kinda fear about possible backslash from all those people who pledged based on this "promise" | 01:37 |
| salyavin | Yes it causes a lot of disappointment from open source people, who incidentally are the ones who write apps of which they have few. | 01:42 |
| M4rtinK | yeah, I don't really get it | 01:43 |
| M4rtinK | also stuff like the Jolla Store debacle | 01:43 |
| M4rtinK | at a time when you need applications and app developers the most | 01:43 |
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| salyavin | What debacle is it? No paid apps? | 01:43 |
| M4rtinK | you can hardly submit any app that does anything serious to the store | 01:44 |
| M4rtinK | due to limited dependencies allowed | 01:44 |
| salyavin | Ah that's not good. Of course we install openrepos but only a small number of people know about that. | 01:44 |
| M4rtinK | and paid apps can also be important | 01:44 |
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| M4rtinK | I can see some indie devs loosing interest without paid apps | 01:45 |
| M4rtinK | while I do only open source apps, I can understand their motivation | 01:45 |
| salyavin | Yes. They won't make a huge amount of money but it helps. Even open source software can get a little money like gPodder in the OVI store on Harmattan. | 01:45 |
| M4rtinK | yes, exactly | 01:45 |
| M4rtinK | welů, even a built in donation support would be good! | 01:46 |
| M4rtinK | the biggest hurdle for donations are technical issue IMHO | 01:46 |
| M4rtinK | not everyone has paypal bitcoin gratipay or flattr | 01:46 |
| pp_ | it gets messy in .fi for other reasons too | 01:46 |
| M4rtinK | but if it was integrated in the store | 01:46 |
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| M4rtinK | it could make a difference | 01:47 |
| pp_ | not that non-.fi devels couldn'tget donations :) | 01:47 |
| M4rtinK | well, paypal is based where ? | 01:47 |
| M4rtinK | Luxemburg ? :D | 01:47 |
| M4rtinK | if the want something back | 01:47 |
| pp_ | doesn't matter, there's a reason the tablet money went to jolla asia :-) | 01:48 |
| M4rtinK | I can send everyone who donates me >1 € a post card :) | 01:48 |
| M4rtinK | pp_ thinks so :) | 01:48 |
| M4rtinK | (BTW, I already send postcards to people who donate to modRana :) ) | 01:48 |
| pp_ | then it's fine, obviously you need to pay tax on the profits made on post cards :-) | 01:49 |
| M4rtinK | sure :) | 01:49 |
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| M4rtinK | anyway, I find it quite bad that a year after launch QtPositioning and Python are still not acceptable to store | 01:50 |
| M4rtinK | hopefully it should now be soon (tm) possible to submit them to store according to the latest meeting | 01:51 |
| M4rtinK | but still not the best way to court to developers IMHO | 01:51 |
| M4rtinK | apps like modRana or Foursail have been blocked from the store for about more than half a year already due to this | 01:52 |
| M4rtinK | any many others | 01:53 |
| M4rtinK | I can see the developers loosing interest | 01:53 |
| M4rtinK | and those are all *free* apps by definition! | 01:53 |
| M4rtinK | people working on them in their free time for free and are blocked from most of their potential users... | 01:54 |
| salyavin | yes it's frustrating. So they depend even more on aliendalvik | 01:54 |
| salyavin | which kinda defeats the point of running Sailfish. | 01:55 |
| salyavin | Glad the weechat client is being developed, even has a sponsor. That's the main android app I am running. gPodder 4 is frustrating me due to no play que. | 01:56 |
| M4rtinK | send a pull request :) | 01:58 |
| M4rtinK | actually all my current needs are more or less satisfied by native apps :) | 01:59 |
| M4rtinK | fbreader, tweetian and default browser and mail client | 01:59 |
| M4rtinK | and media player or siren song :) | 01:59 |
| M4rtinK | and of course modRana for navigation :) | 01:59 |
| salyavin | I just downloaded modRana for a quick look. One thing I noticed is you show the map file location but don't seem to allow changing it to the sdcard (other than symlinks). | 02:02 |
| salyavin | gpodder4 no play que and weechat front end are my missing things. | 02:03 |
| salyavin | twettian I use a lot but it could use a little love. | 02:03 |
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| RavenholmDX | salyavin, how is gpodder on Sailfish? | 02:09 |
| RavenholmDX | podcast app is probably my #1 need | 02:09 |
| salyavin | Well no gpodder.net connection, no play que but otherwise works OK. | 02:11 |
| salyavin | no play que is a big deal to me. | 02:11 |
| salyavin | want me to crash my car? | 02:12 |
| M4rtinK | salyavin: not in GUI at the moment :) | 02:12 |
| salyavin | cool M4rtinK not a huge deal. | 02:12 |
| salyavin | gpodder 3 (harmattan) was awesome. gpodder.net synching, play que etc. | 02:13 |
| salyavin | oh yea don't think gpodder 4 does video yet if you need it | 02:13 |
| M4rtinK | salyavin: check /home/nemo/.config/harbour-modrana/user_config.conf :) | 02:13 |
| salyavin | Probably thp doesn't have enough help or time. Saw he was working on an android port recently. | 02:13 |
| RavenholmDX | It seems like there'll be native apps for everything I need | 02:14 |
| RavenholmDX | once I release the app I've been working on at least | 02:14 |
| salyavin | OK M4rtinK | 02:15 |
| salyavin | What are you working on RavenholmDX? | 02:15 |
| RavenholmDX | just a video streaming app that pulls content from a site I visit | 02:15 |
| salyavin | tt-rss is a heavy use one for me and we have that. Works great. | 02:15 |
| M4rtinK | salyavin: it can be used to set the tile storage path and other variables not yet exposed in the GUI | 02:15 |
| M4rtinK | BTW thp and Android - it is now possible to write Python 3 & QtQuick 2.0 apps for Android with PyOtherSide :) | 02:16 |
| M4rtinK | that's how the gPodder Android port is working | 02:17 |
| M4rtinK | I helped him with it a bit & wrote the howto: https://github.com/thp/pyotherside/blob/master/docs/index.rst#building-for-android | 02:18 |
| salyavin | Yea that seems to have thp interest at the moment. I hope he adds play que and maybe gpodder.net syncing next. Something like antannaepod has more features on android ^-^;; | 02:18 |
| RavenholmDX | I use Pocket Casts on Android | 02:18 |
| M4rtinK | more platforms can only help your application :) | 02:18 |
| RavenholmDX | pretty great app | 02:18 |
| salyavin | Guess that's true M4rtinK | 02:19 |
| M4rtinK | that's why I have already modRana experimentally running on Android :) | 02:19 |
| salyavin | don't use android but I downloaded Antannaepod on Jolla to try it since gpodder 4 didn't have a play que. Even so I still use gpodder for now. | 02:19 |
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| M4rtinK | some late modRana users and contributors did not migrate to Sailfish but to Android | 02:20 |
| salyavin | Android does have probably 1000 times the userbase after all | 02:20 |
| M4rtinK | so I'm glad they will be able to use is again :) | 02:20 |
| salyavin | Harmattan to Android? | 02:20 |
| salyavin | Or Maemo to Android? | 02:20 |
| M4rtinK | pretty much the reason for wanting to having modRana also run on it | 02:21 |
| M4rtinK | other than the userbase, it is so much crap on so many levels :D | 02:21 |
| M4rtinK | mobile windows :D | 02:21 |
| salyavin | multitasking is not good and interface is clunky to me | 02:21 |
| M4rtinK | and then try to actually develop for it :) | 02:22 |
| M4rtinK | and especially to do something the original developers never intended to support (running Python apps with Qt GUI) :P | 02:22 |
| M4rtinK | then the real fun starts :) | 02:22 |
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| M4rtinK | BTW, modRana port - it is using the same Qt 5 GUI as on Sailfish or on desktop | 02:23 |
| M4rtinK | just with the QtQuick Controls backend like on desktop, not with the Silica one used on Sailfish :) | 02:23 |
| M4rtinK | <flood end> :) | 02:25 |
| Elleo | M4rtinK: just tried modrana on ubuntu touch and it seems to work: http://mikeasoft.com/~mike/modrana.png :) might try and knock together a UI using Ubuntu.Components instead of the QtQuick Controls when I have a bit of time :) | 02:40 |
| Elleo | (QtQuick Controls isn't available normally) | 02:40 |
| M4rtinK | Elleo: Nice! :) | 02:40 |
| M4rtinK | Elleo: won't you mind if I post this on Twitter ? :) | 02:41 |
| Elleo | M4rtinK: go right ahead :) | 02:41 |
| Elleo | M4rtinK: just updated the image with a non fullscreen one so it's a bit clearer it's UT | 02:41 |
| M4rtinK | Elleo: roget that :) | 02:41 |
| M4rtinK | do you have a twitter handle I can reference ? :) | 02:42 |
| Elleo | M4rtinK: @mikesheldon :) | 02:43 |
| M4rtinK | OK :) | 02:43 |
| Elleo | was attempting to get gpodder going and saw you mention modrana had a pure qtquick controls UI, so thought I'd give it a quick try | 02:44 |
| Elleo | and it pretty much worked straight out of the box :) | 02:44 |
| salyavin | Hope your home isn't in the center of that immage Elleo ;) | 02:44 |
| Elleo | not sure about the GPS stuff though, as I don't get a fix in here; will try that out some more when I'm out and about | 02:44 |
| Elleo | salyavin: nah, I deliberately moved it a little away from where I am | 02:45 |
| Elleo | to somewhere the transport overlay stuff showed something more interesting | 02:45 |
| Elleo | if you fancy stalking me it'd get you to within about a 30 minute walk of me though ;) | 02:46 |
| salyavin | How do you like Ubuntu Touch? | 02:46 |
| M4rtinK | Elleo: here it is: https://twitter.com/M4rtinK/status/538524318641451008 :) | 02:47 |
| salyavin | particularly compared to Sailfish. | 02:47 |
| Elleo | M4rtinK: neat, thanks :) | 02:47 |
| M4rtinK | Elleo: thanks to you too :) | 02:48 |
| Elleo | salyavin: I really like them both; I actually work on Ubuntu Touch so am biased there, but really like my Jolla phone too | 02:48 |
| M4rtinK | BTW, this is the actual component set modRana uses: https://github.com/M4rtinK/universal-components :) | 02:48 |
| Elleo | M4rtinK: ah, interesting, thanks | 02:49 |
| M4rtinK | it supports multiple backends (currently Controls & Silica) | 02:49 |
| M4rtinK | so if you want to make it use the Ubuntu ones, you just need to make an Ubuntu components backend :) | 02:49 |
| Elleo | M4rtinK: awesome | 02:49 |
| M4rtinK | or you can make whole new UI, even the UI modules in modRana are plugable :) | 02:50 |
| Elleo | neat | 02:51 |
| Elleo | I suspect I'll just change the minimal amount necessary for compatibility though | 02:51 |
| M4rtinK | BTW, I've read about that channel bridge on Wikipedia :) | 02:52 |
| M4rtinK | interesting thing :) | 02:52 |
| salyavin | My main cencern with Ubuntu Touch was the multitasking http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2014/09/ubuntu-phones-three-things-to-expect | 02:52 |
| salyavin | “Applications are not allowed to run in background. Our application lifecycle is strict in this respect and we only guarantee focused applications to be running.” ~ Thomas Voss, Canonical | 02:52 |
| M4rtinK | Elleo: yeah, that is indeed the most sensible thing to do :) | 02:52 |
| Elleo | salyavin: yeah, I'm a bit conflicted about that myself; there are handy services that allow you to do lots of background stuff quite well, but there are some cases where that breaks down | 02:53 |
| Elleo | salyavin: e.g. you can hand off a playlist to media-hub and let it carry on playing music for you, or do downloads via download-manager in the background, etc. | 02:54 |
| Elleo | salyavin: but I'm currently hitting the limits of that with CuteSpotify, since that has to handle tiny raw audio packets from libspotify that can't be handed off to anything else | 02:54 |
| Elleo | M4rtinK: channel bridge? | 02:54 |
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| M4rtinK | Elleo: your twitter background picture | 02:57 |
| Elleo | ah right, that's the pontcysyllte aqueduct :) | 02:58 |
| Elleo | it's really cool going over it | 02:59 |
| Elleo | as there's a river below as well, so it's pretty spectacular :) | 02:59 |
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| M4rtinK | I find the UK channel system is pretty interesting :) | 03:00 |
| M4rtinK | pretty unique worldwide | 03:00 |
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| Elleo | M4rtinK: yeah, I actually live on a narrowboat on the grand union canal :) | 03:00 |
| M4rtinK | wow :D | 03:00 |
| Elleo | it's awesome :D | 03:00 |
| M4rtinK | a real mobile developer :) | 03:00 |
| Elleo | heh | 03:01 |
| M4rtinK | BTW, does it freeze over in winter ? | 03:01 |
| Elleo | sometimes, the winter before last it was frozen over for about a month | 03:02 |
| Elleo | I'd just got my boat then, and was almost immediately stuck :P | 03:02 |
| M4rtinK | lol, happens :) | 03:02 |
| Elleo | M4rtinK: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/v/t1.0-9/45923_10152443202725655_1661427449_n.jpg?oh=9578902db307fbe96a72a11356b3d3f4&oe=551989A6&__gda__=1423370713_b17a2936696d31a7015c926adb8a8538 | 03:03 |
| Elleo | all the ducks had to walk to work | 03:03 |
| Elleo | anyway, I should get some sleep; good night :) | 03:05 |
| M4rtinK | good night :) | 03:09 |
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| salyavin | Good night. | 03:14 |
| salyavin | hmm wonder if an IRC client would stay connected when not in focus. | 03:14 |
| sharpneli | It works for me | 03:24 |
| ShadowJK | The sailfish native client does not. | 03:24 |
| ShadowJK | Actually doesn't stay connected even when in focus :) | 03:24 |
| ShadowJK | Disconnects and reconnects whenever connectivity changes :-( | 03:25 |
| ShadowJK | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YAcMgoSpDE :( | 03:26 |
| ShadowJK | ECHAN | 03:27 |
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| salyavin | sharpneli you mean IRC on ubuntu touch stays connected when not in focus? | 04:18 |
| salyavin | I can see why it would reconnect on connectivity changes ShadowJK. I am using Android weechat client that talks to my server which stays connected but I do lose connection when changing networks. | 04:19 |
| ShadowJK | I use openvpn local on Jolla | 04:27 |
| ShadowJK | It "never" loses connectivity | 04:27 |
| ShadowJK | but client reconnects anyway | 04:27 |
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| keithzg | The 3.5G stretch goal for the tablet kindof makes me sad, since it'll invariably not support the frequencies my carrier uses again :P | 04:34 |
| keithzg | Both microSDHC up to 128GB and being able to run apps splitscreen sound pretty fantastic, though. | 04:35 |
| * keithzg crosses his fingers | 04:35 | |
| salyavin | I am sure it can already use the 128 card, the stretch goal is to pay Microsoft for exFAT support. | 04:36 |
| salyavin | Makes me sad. | 04:36 |
| keithzg | Yeah, that's the world we live in. | 04:36 |
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| salyavin | So basically just like the phone you can already use up to 2TiB cards | 04:37 |
| salyavin | with ext3/4,btrfs etc. | 04:37 |
| keithzg | Ja, I've got a 64GB card in my current tiny-tablet Jolla ;) formatted so as to work. Forget now whether I used btrfs or just fat32 though, heh. | 04:38 |
| salyavin | 128 in mine | 04:39 |
| salyavin | fat32 you can run into problems with large files like large videos | 04:39 |
| keithzg | As much as I love the hardware design, the screen just isn't good enough to justify trying to watch hi-def videos on it, heh. | 04:39 |
| salyavin | I don't either. | 04:40 |
| salyavin | If all your files are less than 4GiB you're fine. | 04:41 |
| keithzg | But yeah, fat32 is a janky filesystem anyways. Although it seems more solid these days than I remember it being, but that's probably because the few times I'm dealing with it nowadays it's via Linux. | 04:41 |
| keithzg | Windows+fat32 is just pure pain, heh. | 04:42 |
| salyavin | hopefully f2fs ends up in cameras etc after it stablizes | 04:42 |
| salyavin | not that many take cares out of their phones or tablets often | 04:42 |
| salyavin | take cards | 04:42 |
| salyavin | but having the cards preformatted something more open and better like f2fs would be great. | 04:43 |
| keithzg | ehhh not going to happen. | 04:43 |
| keithzg | exFAT is literally part of the SDXC spec :( | 04:43 |
| keithzg | Funnily enough though I think I have two devices already using F2FS. | 04:46 |
| salyavin | really? what are they? | 04:47 |
| keithzg | Moto X (last year's) and a Nexus 9. | 04:47 |
| salyavin | well it is in the linux kernel so I can see how android could. | 04:48 |
| keithzg | In fact I think the new encryption regime in Android 5.0 expressly only supports F2FS and EXT4 for now. | 04:48 |
| keithzg | Aren't the limits on F2FS kindof low for a modern filesytem, though? | 04:49 |
| keithzg | Max filesize of a bit below 4TB, and max volume size of 16TB. | 04:49 |
| keithzg | Makes perfect sense for current flash storage, but I'd hope that's something that can be trivially increased in the future, otherwise it might start looking outdated pretty soon . . . | 04:50 |
| salyavin | hope so too. we'll need new controllers and a standard by then as this one only goes to 2TiB | 04:57 |
| salyavin | to get F2FS to be part of that new standard it would need to increase limits. | 04:57 |
| salyavin | I agree | 04:57 |
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| lainwir3d | hi | 08:19 |
| tbr | moaning | 08:20 |
| Stskeeps | nothing like the smell of a shitstorm brewing in the morning | 08:20 |
| r0kk3rz | is the coffee really that bad? | 08:22 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: I missed something? | 08:23 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2nov0n/tell_jolla_not_to_use_crowdfunded_money_to_pay/ | 08:23 |
| * Stskeeps intends on using his weekend for getting some fresh air and perhaps even test out mesa | 08:24 | |
| Stskeeps | tbr: anyhow, i can commit to the next week's oss discussion meeting (just double confirming it now) .. the only thing if possible is if we can ask people to read through the previous' meetings logs | 08:25 |
| Stskeeps | else it's just going to be a repeat and not constructive for anybody involved | 08:26 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: yeah, I need to read the log and then round up the people. I'm a bit unclear on what exactly they want discussed (aside from just continuing the topic, without further defining it) | 08:27 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 08:27 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: well, the topic of the post is stormy, but the discussion quickly devloved into technical details, no storm there... | 08:27 |
| Stskeeps | and 492 votes ;) | 08:28 |
| Stskeeps | i think if it has sunk in a bit what i also said, it can be a better discussion .. i mean, part of the reason we're talking like we're talking is to help people understand what it takes to build a mobile OS/device, so they don't have to learn it the hard way by not being able to live up to promises because they didn't learn about X/Y/Z.. | 08:30 |
| Stskeeps | and hit that immediately.. | 08:30 |
| tbr | *nod* | 08:30 |
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| Stskeeps | such as 'why can't i get rid of this microsoft royalty line in the BoM' | 08:32 |
| Stskeeps | the best outcome is that people start being able to factually build open devices, because soon, there won't be any open devices to put your open source systems on.. | 08:34 |
| Stskeeps | that anybody would actually use.. | 08:34 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 08:34 |
| * Stskeeps rants | 08:34 | |
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| r0kk3rz | its definitely a shit position to be in | 08:35 |
| r0kk3rz | but there are organisations that are fighting patent encumbered standards | 08:35 |
| r0kk3rz | jolla doesnt have to be one of them | 08:36 |
| Stskeeps | sure, but pick your battles | 08:36 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah | 08:36 |
| Stskeeps | it's hard enough making an open alternative :) | 08:36 |
| r0kk3rz | you dont have to be an RMS absolutist | 08:36 |
| Stskeeps | building a device is like a sausage, tastes great but you really don't want to see how it's done.. and we're trying to show that | 08:36 |
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| Jope | stskeeps, hah, eloquently put | 08:37 |
| Stskeeps | and the sometimes awkward truth about it all is that indeed, it's that you're stuffing the pig up it's own intestines | 08:37 |
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| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: +1 | 08:37 |
| locusf | it seems that its possible to build a rootfs with some Jolla propietaries installed but with otherwise free UI | 08:38 |
| locusf | and other middleware stack | 08:38 |
| Stskeeps | locusf: i want to use a few weekends to make sure that this stuff is easy to build images against of nemo, at least | 08:38 |
| locusf | but this doesn't help the purists, theres still propietary software | 08:38 |
| locusf | Stskeeps: cool :) | 08:38 |
| locusf | although it now appears that I'm doing it wrong and getting a bootloop instead | 08:39 |
| r0kk3rz | an appeasement strategy could be to build in sdcard formatting tools into the settings UI | 08:39 |
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| Stskeeps | r0kk3rz: well, yes, but then you have the crowd 'where did my data go'.. | 08:40 |
| Stskeeps | people should spend time in customer care where you can't just ban their bugzilla accounts | 08:40 |
| Stskeeps | it's a sobering moment | 08:40 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah it is always dangerous building in things like that | 08:42 |
| r0kk3rz | but even if it was done, there is still the bitter pill that money they pledged to jolla in good faith is ending up in the hands of microsoft | 08:43 |
| r0kk3rz | and theres no real way you can spin that | 08:43 |
| Stskeeps | fair | 08:43 |
| Stskeeps | you can't spin, but you can possible counter | 08:44 |
| r0kk3rz | other than sympathising and saying to support organisations like the FSF | 08:44 |
| tbr | r0kk3rz: the sad thing is, it was already happening beforehand. I'd be willing to bet on that. | 08:44 |
| Stskeeps | for each exfat royalty pay same amount of money to FSF? | 08:44 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 08:44 |
| r0kk3rz | thats a reasonable PR strategy | 08:45 |
| tbr | I'm sure there is some bit somewhere, like the ODM paying off MS per "android adaptation device patents" or such | 08:45 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. the pathways of royalties in mobile is fantastic | 08:46 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: that would at least show a conscious approach to it | 08:46 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah MS makes patent money off a lot of things in mobile.... | 08:46 |
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| tbr | Stskeeps: oh, wait there is the AS-daemon. FSF and RMS zealots, I have very bad news for you... :D | 08:46 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: as-daemon is installable from store though afaik | 08:47 |
| Stskeeps | but yeah, the other problem is that there's no 'per installation' | 08:47 |
| Stskeeps | there's only 'per device' | 08:47 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: yes it is, but who knows how the licensing deal is structured | 08:47 |
| tbr | see... | 08:47 |
| Stskeeps | which means you then walk over into privacy territory because why u must see what apps i have installed.. | 08:47 |
| Stskeeps | or just paint with broad brush | 08:48 |
| Stskeeps | it's a really fun environment. | 08:48 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah must be frustrating at times | 08:49 |
| Stskeeps | i've started to come to the conclusion it's better to spend time being open than to argue openness | 08:49 |
| Stskeeps | ie, i could easily turn many of these kind of things / time spent on them into doing more openness/open source/etc | 08:50 |
| Stskeeps | being+doing, that is | 08:50 |
| tbr | +1 | 08:50 |
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| r0kk3rz | personally I'm happy with a mostly open platform with a direction of becoming more open | 08:51 |
| r0kk3rz | rather than a previously mostly open platform becoming more closed with every update aka android | 08:51 |
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| tbr | yeah, the direction is something noteworthy | 08:52 |
| jonwil | Seems like Android is becoming more closed over time mostly to A.Give Google more power over phone OEMs and prevent forks ala Amazon and B.To give Google more power over updates by putting as much of the phone OS and software under the control of Google as possible (i.e. avoiding the problem where OEMs and carriers kept releasing FroYo and Gingerbread handsets long after Ice Cream Sandwich... | 08:55 |
| jonwil | ...had shown up) | 08:55 |
| chem|st | as this is something new to me can you please elaborate what the difference between sdhc and sdxc realy is? what I understand from the discussion is that the only difference is MS royalties for FAT so manufacturers are "forced" to deny sdxc if they did not pay FAT royalties? | 08:56 |
| Stskeeps | + they come preformatted | 08:56 |
| Stskeeps | and exfat | 08:57 |
| Stskeeps | not fat | 08:57 |
| chem|st | but if I put a 64GB uSD btrfs formatted into the slot, what happens? | 08:57 |
| Stskeeps | bill gates runs after you with a cane | 08:58 |
| chem|st | cause I deleted his precious FS? | 08:58 |
| Stskeeps | the limitation is artifical to us geeks but not regular consumers | 08:58 |
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| chem|st | ? | 08:58 |
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| chem|st | so the driver has to make sure that >32GB in exfat is unsupported? | 08:59 |
| chem|st | or is it all SDs in >32GB? | 09:00 |
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| Stskeeps | no, but to advertise and have good consumer experience | 09:01 |
| chem|st | *sigh* | 09:03 |
| chem|st | can you make a whole sentence out of it please | 09:03 |
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| Stskeeps | long story short: to advertise SDXC and have a good consumer experience ('my card with my data doesn't work on my device'), you need exfat | 09:04 |
| salyavin | Greater than 32gb are preformatted exFAT less is FAT32 | 09:04 |
| Stskeeps | i don't claim to like it but that's how consumer world works.. | 09:04 |
| Stskeeps | and we're already hit enough with that device is not friendly .. do we need more reasons for people not to buy a device that actually pushes a lot of open source? | 09:05 |
| chem|st | so let me put that together, you are not allowed to use the term SDXC unless you paid royalties and you are not allowed to support exfat >32GB? | 09:05 |
| Stskeeps | chem|st: exfat requires royalities/patents etc and crap | 09:05 |
| jonwil | No, you aren't allowed to support exFAT at all without paying the royalties | 09:05 |
| Stskeeps | i've seen people be disappointed the device(s) don't support >32gb.. | 09:06 |
| Stskeeps | => lost sales | 09:06 |
| Stskeeps | so it's really a weighing | 09:06 |
| chem|st | jonwil: ah SDXC requires exfat, SDHC does not require exfat (size) | 09:06 |
| jonwil | yep | 09:06 |
| jonwil | SDXC cards all come formatted by default as exFAT | 09:06 |
| jonwil | and SDXC spec requires this | 09:07 |
| chem|st | ok | 09:07 |
| jonwil | SDHC cards only use regular FAT32 | 09:07 |
| salyavin | Slot works to 2TiB with btrfs, ext4 etc just cannot say SDXC | 09:07 |
| jonwil | yeah you cant claim SDXC unless you pay the exFAT royalties | 09:07 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps: that specs are everything for a kickstarter should be known, right? | 09:07 |
| Stskeeps | chem|st: rephrase? | 09:08 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps: "lost sales" device specs are what drives a kickstarter beyond fans | 09:09 |
| Stskeeps | i .. guess? | 09:09 |
| Stskeeps | i don't know :) | 09:09 |
| Stskeeps | i would really like to see statistics of the kind of people that contributed | 09:09 |
| salyavin | Kickstarter is more geeky people I would guess. | 09:09 |
| Stskeeps | i don't believe it's all open source fans | 09:09 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps: make a survey after the igg | 09:10 |
| Stskeeps | chem|st: yeah | 09:10 |
| Stskeeps | because while oss people are very vocal it may very also be that they're not remotely a large part.. | 09:11 |
| Stskeeps | the news got out in a -lot- of interesting places | 09:11 |
| chem|st | if you want to make sure everyone participates, offer a neat jolla cloth for the survey (or even a sleeve) | 09:11 |
| Stskeeps | .. not saying they should be dismissed, just that sometimes we think we have more weight than we do | 09:11 |
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| jonwil | I am surprised Microsoft haven't tried to shut down https://github.com/dorimanx/exfat-nofuse or https://code.google.com/p/exfat/ with patent threats. | 09:12 |
| Stskeeps | jonwil: well, until you ship in a consumer device nobody cares typically | 09:12 |
| Stskeeps | there's nothing to be taken from the typical oss coder | 09:13 |
| r0kk3rz | add in the fact that people will often trade ideology for convenience | 09:13 |
| joonahoi | '* | 09:13 |
| jonwil | yeah I suspect Microsoft is only interested in spending billable lawyer hours on patent violations when money is being made from something shipping the patent-violating code | 09:13 |
| joonahoi | (my toddler says hi) | 09:13 |
| Stskeeps | o/ joonahoi's toddler | 09:13 |
| Stskeeps | r0kk3rz: or privacy for convenience.. AGPS is my favourite one in that regard | 09:13 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah that too | 09:14 |
| r0kk3rz | many examples of that | 09:14 |
| chem|st | is any of you at 31c3? | 09:14 |
| Stskeeps | nobody wants to wait 20 minutes for a gps fix, so they trade their LAC and surrounding wifi aps to get it faster | 09:14 |
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| Stskeeps | chem|st: when is it anyhow | 09:15 |
| Stskeeps | ah.. 27-30 | 09:15 |
| chem|st | always between the years iirc | 09:15 |
| Stskeeps | that looks like a time i can't take off for once.. | 09:15 |
| mornfall | Stskeeps: do you have any idea how big the agps database is? | 09:15 |
| chem|st | mornfall: which nokia or google | 09:16 |
| Stskeeps | mornfall: i used to work 3-4 years in university on positioning technologies so i have a pretty good idea | 09:16 |
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| mornfall | and the ballpark would be? | 09:16 |
| Stskeeps | big. | 09:16 |
| jonwil | I like Neo900 because its a phone being built for privacy in a way few other phones have been built. | 09:16 |
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| Stskeeps | but also worth a lot of money | 09:16 |
| Stskeeps | collecting that data is not simple | 09:17 |
| Stskeeps | and keeping it up to date | 09:17 |
| mornfall | yes, I don't have plans, I was just wondering :-) | 09:17 |
| chem|st | mornfall: they have APs location triangulated all over | 09:18 |
| tbr | chem|st: I'd love to, it depends on my employment outlook though | 09:18 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps: there are enough google sheep to have that updated^^ | 09:18 |
| Stskeeps | FOSDEM is probably my next conference | 09:18 |
| chem|st | that is belgium right? | 09:18 |
| jonwil | Too bad there is never any of these big hacker conferences anywhere near me here in Brisbane... | 09:18 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 09:19 |
| jonwil | They are all in Europe or USA | 09:19 |
| chem|st | friend of mine asked me... | 09:19 |
| r0kk3rz | jonwil: time to escape to the right hemisphere | 09:19 |
| mornfall | chem|st: dunno, but I'd imagine something like a GB per million APs would be within the ballpark? | 09:19 |
| chem|st | r0kk3rz: we are the ones that need to escape! | 09:19 |
| chem|st | mornfall: lol they track a lot more than just ssid+loaction | 09:20 |
| mornfall | chem|st: also, BTS coordinates I guess? | 09:20 |
| r0kk3rz | i escaped my little island | 09:20 |
| r0kk3rz | for a slightly bigger island on the other side of the planet | 09:20 |
| mornfall | chem|st: well, how much more? what else is there to track? | 09:20 |
| mornfall | chem|st: (bssid btw) | 09:20 |
| jonwil | I have no plans to ever set foot in the USA, not whilst politicians on both sides of the fence continue to ignore what is best for the people of America, for the US economy or for the country as a whole and continue to do all sorts of crap few people would actually say yes to if given the chance. | 09:21 |
| tigeli | mornfall: actually.. the mobile operators co-operate with the officials nowadays to get data from traffic congestions just by tracking mobile device movement within cells | 09:22 |
| tigeli | s/from/for/ | 09:22 |
| mornfall | chem|st: (also note I counted 1K per AP, that fits a lot more than the 6-byte BSSID and location) | 09:22 |
| chem|st | mornfall: you have hundreds of trackpoints per AP, they try to locate the AP, and verify signalstrength against location, also tracking what the AP is | 09:22 |
| r0kk3rz | i suppose AGPS is just a cheap way of having terrestrial positioning transmitters | 09:23 |
| tbr | AGPS is complicated | 09:23 |
| jonwil | Europe seems to be going the wrong direction too | 09:23 |
| tbr | it can mean many things | 09:23 |
| tbr | then there is also DGPS | 09:23 |
| r0kk3rz | surely it could be adequately done with mobile towers rather than tracking private wifi | 09:23 |
| chem|st | r0kk3rz: AGPS used to be just that, adding WLAN is can help you even inside buildings | 09:24 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah true | 09:24 |
| jonwil | Many EU countries are just as guilty of wholesale spying and privacy violations as the USA is | 09:24 |
| tigeli | r0kk3rz: well.. is the ssid broadcast private if you are publicly yelling it?-) | 09:24 |
| r0kk3rz | tigeli: valid point | 09:24 |
| mornfall | it just adds precision, not necessarily within buildings (you usually have GSM signal in buildings :P) | 09:25 |
| tbr | mobile phone tower triangulation based on device RSSI can get you 100-500m accuracy in urban and 2-3km in rural areas | 09:25 |
| chem|st | so the WLAN map works without GPS actually, and in bigger cities you need that to have precise location services | 09:25 |
| tbr | wifi can be down to <5m | 09:25 |
| krnlyng | are there any groups of people who would like to buy the micro-distributor starterkit collectively? | 09:25 |
| chem|st | tbr: nokia manages to be within 5m for my "home" location | 09:26 |
| mornfall | hm, $2.5M is probably not going to happen | 09:26 |
| chem|st | krnlyng: I started a question on TJC | 09:26 |
| mornfall | wlan maps only work in cities, really | 09:27 |
| tbr | chem|st: yes, I know something about that... | 09:27 |
| mornfall | at least in towns around here, it's still common that you only see like 2 bssid's at most places | 09:27 |
| chem|st | mornfall: it worked pretty well on the spanish coast (costa del sol) | 09:27 |
| mornfall | (and one of those is a long-range ISP wifi :) | 09:28 |
| jonwil | I just wish there was a SANE country left on this earth. One that wont spy on all their citizens (and will do whatever they can to stop other countries spying on their citizens). One that will make big corporations pay the tax they are supposed to pay and wont let them get away with using loopholes to pay less tax. One that doesn't give a cent in subsidies to companies that mine fossil fuels... | 09:28 |
| jonwil | ...or use them to generate electricity. | 09:28 |
| jonwil | One that wont bow down to pressure from the USA on IP laws | 09:28 |
| jonwil | or try to censor the Internet | 09:28 |
| tigeli | tbr: http://goo.gl/I82osw :) | 09:29 |
| mornfall | jonwil: try martian colony 1 | 09:29 |
| chem|st | lets take over NZ and make it a hacker habitat | 09:29 |
| mornfall | chem|st: a hacker country would probably fail spectacularly :P | 09:29 |
| chem|st | mornfall: eek, I don't mean to make hackers politicians | 09:30 |
| chem|st | you see how that fails with the eu pirates | 09:30 |
| tigeli | jonwil: you would have to shoot down the satellites to protect your people ;) | 09:30 |
| lainwir3d | hehe | 09:31 |
| mornfall | chem|st: actually, czech pirates are doing fairly well... I'd be more worried about libertarians though | 09:31 |
| tbr | tigeli: I disagree with the "must be active" part, it's an oversimplified view on things. you just get much less position data. | 09:31 |
| mornfall | tigeli: domed countries | 09:31 |
| tbr | journey to the centre of the earth anyone? ;) | 09:32 |
| jonwil | I dont really see satellites as a problem, if you can be seen by a satellite, you probably shouldn't have an expectation of privacy anyway | 09:32 |
| tbr | mr president, we can't allow a mineshaft gap! | 09:32 |
| tigeli | tbr: I do also.. | 09:32 |
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| mornfall | jonwil: in a walled backyard, say? :) | 09:33 |
| tigeli | tbr: but the fact is that they are tracking us already.. just by fact that we are using their network | 09:33 |
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| jonwil | Oh and while we are at it, lets take this ideal free country with all these great attributes and lets build a massive data haven ala Cryptonomicon | 09:33 |
| tbr | tigeli: yes, ofc | 09:33 |
| mornfall | the defense is not to hide from sight, but to stay within the background noise | 09:34 |
| tigeli | tbr: it's like.. "let's see where the lemmings are going.." :D | 09:34 |
| jonwil | Build the Internet data equivilant of what Swiss Banks are for financial stuff | 09:35 |
| jonwil | Combine it with a new generation crypto-currency that has all the good things about Bitcoin but adds true anonymity to the mix. | 09:36 |
| chem|st | krnlyng: add your country to your answer | 09:37 |
| chem|st | guess people won't groupbuy outside their countries | 09:37 |
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| Nc_ | jonwil, you lot planning a second Principality of Sealand? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand | 09:39 |
| krnlyng | chem|st: i've added it | 09:39 |
| krnlyng | chem|st: i know another person from my country who would probably join | 09:39 |
| krnlyng | chem|st: but is it difficult to send the devices to different countries if needed (no idea about shipping and stuff) | 09:40 |
| r0kk3rz | hacker moon colony, only immigration requirement is that you have to get to the moon | 09:40 |
| r0kk3rz | that should be a sufficiently high bar | 09:40 |
| chem|st | krnlyng: you pay taxes where it is initially received, and shipping outside of your country is probably more expensive than inside | 09:45 |
| Acce | yay one micro-perk gone! | 09:46 |
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| ggabriel | waaat | 09:49 |
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| kimmoli | getting close to $1M over the goal | 09:58 |
| locusf | is there a hardware limitation that prevents the Jolla from booting the kernel is too new compared to the underlying system? | 09:59 |
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| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: reading through the last oss meeting logs, that definitely deserves doing up into a blog post of sorts | 09:59 |
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| lainwir3d | Do you think we'll make it to $1.750.000 :-/ | 10:04 |
| lainwir3d | ? | 10:04 |
| AL13N | it would be nice... but i guess we'll have to donate if we want to get there | 10:05 |
| lainwir3d | damn... a second jolla tablet ? :-o | 10:07 |
| lainwir3d | i credit card is going to cry | 10:07 |
| r0kk3rz | i'll have to buy one upon release I think, cant really afford it right now | 10:08 |
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| AL13N | lainwir3d: you can still just donate money without perks | 10:13 |
| lainwir3d | true | 10:13 |
| AL13N | but getting a second one isn't a bad idea | 10:13 |
| AL13N | that way i can sell it at a later date to one of my friends or so | 10:13 |
| HarhaanJohtaja | if they add more countries it might be possible | 10:14 |
| lainwir3d | yeah | 10:16 |
| lainwir3d | haha, I git the badge "Necromancer" on TJC | 10:16 |
| lainwir3d | "Answered a question more than 30 days later with at least 1 votes" | 10:16 |
| lainwir3d | funny :P | 10:16 |
| ggabriel | i've got one of those too | 10:20 |
| ggabriel | best badge ever | 10:20 |
| lainwir3d | hehe | 10:21 |
| stephg | ning! | 10:21 |
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| lukedirtwalker | So in harbour dashboard is always those example reviews not real reviews? Why don't you just hide it then | 10:31 |
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| Morpog_PC | hi luke, going to try new version, just need to delete cache, as my 1.5.0 version started to crash just yesterday after over a month of usage | 10:32 |
| lukedirtwalker | Morpog_PC: no then don't delete cache! | 10:33 |
| Morpog_PC | well, I need to, I updated to new version and it still crashes | 10:34 |
| lukedirtwalker | oh okay well then that's all I needed to know | 10:34 |
| Morpog_PC | well, maybe the new version doesn't get the cache in such a state that it crashes? | 10:35 |
| lukedirtwalker | Morpog_PC: hopefully but I don't think so | 10:37 |
| Morpog_PC | added lots of playlists to offline sync atm, so I will see soon :D | 10:39 |
| Morpog_PC | now that I moved over storage to sdcard it's not a space problem anymore :) | 10:39 |
| Morpog_PC | this should be really a setting | 10:40 |
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| lukedirtwalker | Morpog_PC: yeah it would need a filepicker | 10:41 |
| Morpog_PC | why? just default SDCard location | 10:41 |
| Morpog_PC | in a hidden folder | 10:41 |
| lukedirtwalker | good idea | 10:41 |
| Yaniel | are you talking about cutespotify here? | 10:42 |
| Morpog_PC | for advanced options later, it could ask to move storage over when activating it. At least it should delete the cache on old storage path when selecting new storage. | 10:43 |
| Morpog_PC | Yaniel, yes | 10:43 |
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| Morpog_PC | cutespotify and mitakuuluu are my most used 3rd party apps on sailfishos | 10:44 |
| Morpog_PC | plus tweetian | 10:44 |
| Yaniel | you took over mitakuuluu? | 10:44 |
| Morpog_PC | err, no? | 10:44 |
| Yaniel | wasn't it coderus' project | 10:44 |
| Morpog_PC | it still is | 10:44 |
| Morpog_PC | what makes you think I took it over? | 10:45 |
| lukedirtwalker | damn whatsapp blocked me otherwise it would be the same for me | 10:45 |
| Yaniel | oh you mean the apps you use most | 10:45 |
| Morpog_PC | still using mitakuuluu and still not banned/blocked :D | 10:45 |
| Morpog_PC | Yaniel, yep | 10:45 |
| Yaniel | not the most popular ones you work on | 10:45 |
| Morpog_PC | Yaniel, ? | 10:46 |
| Morpog_PC | I don't really work on any apps :D | 10:46 |
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| lukedirtwalker | Yes with all the icons ;) | 10:46 |
| Morpog_PC | I just contribute some graphics here and there and sometimes a bit QML code | 10:46 |
| sec | Tox works well too. | 10:50 |
| * Nc_ eyes Morpog_PC for some graphics | 10:58 | |
| Morpog_PC | what do you need? | 10:59 |
| r0kk3rz | moar graphics! | 11:00 |
| Nc_ | Nothing right now, but may need an icon-replacement later if I cannot get approval for the one I have :) | 11:00 |
| r0kk3rz | a better icon for sirensong might be nice, as i realised that I subconsiously ripped off an apple design | 11:01 |
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| Morpog_PC | redrawn or copy+paste rip off? | 11:07 |
| Morpog_PC | redrawn shouldn't be a real problem | 11:07 |
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| r0kk3rz | redrawn | 11:13 |
| r0kk3rz | more of a look and feel rip off than a direct copypasta | 11:13 |
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| Stskeeps | mm, fresh air | 11:53 |
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| sledges | whair? | 12:08 |
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| * sledges pops http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii174/MommyPhathom/GIFs/perriair1.gif and goes back to work | 12:13 | |
| Stskeeps | on a saturday? | 12:14 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:14 |
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| * tbr mumbles something about overworked and burnout waiting to happen | 12:16 | |
| sledges | burnouts happen when it's boring.. bornout? :D | 12:20 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: idly pondering if i'm heading that wa | 12:21 |
| Stskeeps | y | 12:21 |
| tbr | sledges: that's bored out of your mind, the other end of the scale. Something I'm currently trying to avoid by doing random things in open source most of my time. | 12:25 |
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| tbr | Stskeeps: staying sane in this business is very hard, very very hard. one must strive to though, there is no value if you overdo it and then don't finish what you started. | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | speaking of sanity, could your push stuff work over wlan-ap or bluetooth pan? | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | or does it require a more centralized server | 12:27 |
| Stskeeps | thinking device to device | 12:27 |
| sledges | tbr: the discussion is flying over the cockoo's nest ;) | 12:28 |
| tadzik | hmm, android apps don't work for me for the last couple of days | 12:29 |
| * tbr ponders if that was an intentional spelling | 12:29 | |
| tadzik | no amount of restarting aliendalvik or the device itself changes anything | 12:29 |
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| tbr | Stskeeps: I did run the server on the jolla too for experiments. | 12:29 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: because first thing i think about is how to work tablet and phone together somehow | 12:30 |
| Stskeeps | and doesn't make sense to NIH it | 12:30 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: I'm not sure if a decentralized system would be ideal to build on the MQTT protocol, but it's worth thinking about it. | 12:30 |
| sledges | :D | 12:30 |
| tbr | tadzik: do you have apkd installed? | 12:31 |
| Stskeeps | especially if tablet is using wlan ap from phone | 12:31 |
| tbr | tadzik: if that doesn't fix it, remove aliendalvik, purge the android directory structure (you will lose apps and their data, you can try making a backup) | 12:31 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: it's certainly an interesting use case to be thought about. First they'd need to find each other, that is also a solved problem (in many ways like avahi or broadcast or ipv6-all-nodes) | 12:32 |
| Stskeeps | well, yeah | 12:33 |
| tbr | if I reflect the local usecase from my concept for the push system, then I find this to be different in some ways. So likely a quite different approach would be sensible. (In my setup there is a central server/cluster with TLS and trust) | 12:38 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 12:38 |
| Stskeeps | idly wondering | 12:38 |
| entil | tbr: gcm-style push for jolla? | 12:40 |
| tadzik | tbr: installing apkd helped, thanks. That makes me wonder, why wasn't it there before? | 12:40 |
| tbr | entil: yes, I'm working on something like that in my idle cycles | 12:41 |
| tbr | entil: completely open source | 12:41 |
| entil | sweet! | 12:41 |
| Stskeeps | (contributions welcome) | 12:41 |
| tbr | entil: based around MQTT and mosquitto | 12:41 |
| entil | relevant to my interests, probably, cuz I'm working on textsecure in my idle cycles | 12:41 |
| entil | I just got the server running locally with gcm disabled | 12:42 |
| entil | (and apn) | 12:42 |
| entil | maybe when jolla push is done, it should be implemented in the textsecure server, if it's superior to websockets | 12:42 |
| Stskeeps | atm it's tbr push, but a very good candidate for jolla push | 12:43 |
| tbr | currently I'm holding things license wise close to my chest (GPLv3, CC-BY-NC-SA, ...), but keep it relicenseable to something more flexible. | 12:43 |
| entil | tbr push, then ;) | 12:44 |
| tbr | if jolla wants it otherwise, they can talk to me, it may or may not come with a price tag | 12:44 |
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| Stskeeps | nod | 12:44 |
| tbr | sadly Icecast (my main open source project) took a lot of cycles | 12:44 |
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| tbr | so I haven't made much visible progress | 12:44 |
| tbr | I started defining a DBUS api for on device | 12:45 |
| tbr | and have a rough concept in my mind for the server side processing | 12:45 |
| tbr | with Icecast 2.4.1 out, I /might/ make the time for this | 12:45 |
| tbr | I have some well working proof of concept code for the transport layer | 12:46 |
| Stskeeps | total topic change.. if the stuff handling fastboot is a linux kernel + binaries, what do you want to have it do? | 12:46 |
| tbr | btw, Stskeeps did anything change in IPHB from U8 to U9? I've noticed some weird differences, sometimes things stall | 12:46 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: spiironen would probably know | 12:46 |
| tbr | *nod* | 12:46 |
| tbr | might also be connman that loses connectivity. would need to look closer | 12:47 |
| Stskeeps | maybe we should have made connman a stretch goal | 12:47 |
| tbr | assessinate connman: 2.5M | 12:47 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: that fastboot thing gives me a blast from the past... linux+initramfs based bootloaders... | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | well, this is not a bootloader | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | efilinux or something | 12:49 |
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| beidl | hello fine folks | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | loads a boot image style thing in fastboot mode | 12:50 |
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| tbr | well second stage loader | 12:50 |
| tbr | or third, fourth, depending on layers | 12:50 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: is recovery going to be yet another kernel+initramfs or folded into that? | 12:51 |
| Stskeeps | kernel+initramfs probably, different button combo | 12:52 |
| tbr | *nod* | 12:54 |
| tbr | at the very least it should oem unlock and boot a kernel provided over USB. Bonus points if you can adjust boot options, e.g. make it look for a system on the µSD before trying eMMC | 12:55 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. let's see what's possible | 12:55 |
| Stskeeps | even signed 'here's a recovery flash on microsd' is quite useful in care | 12:56 |
| tbr | yes | 12:56 |
| beidl | any insights on how the partition layout is going to look like on the tablet? | 13:03 |
| Stskeeps | how'd you like it to look? | 13:04 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:04 |
| beidl | got to say, I've become a fan of running a full-btrfs setup on /dev/sda on my SSD | 13:05 |
| Stskeeps | so, ssd connected to usb? :p | 13:05 |
| beidl | grabing that layout by its balls and moving it to the tablets internal NAND certainly would be cool | 13:06 |
| beidl | not having partitions in between that could take and waste space + cross subvolume dedup | 13:07 |
| locusf | oh ohsw is today | 13:07 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: on that hw, I'd hope for either a fast eMMC or an embedded sata ssd | 13:09 |
| Stskeeps | wouldn't a ssd be like half the price? | 13:10 |
| Stskeeps | or well, 32gb.. | 13:10 |
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| Stskeeps | ok, 44 usd | 13:10 |
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| Stskeeps | gah, seems like i don't have a working set of cables+converters for usb otg at home | 13:11 |
| tbr | seriously? :D | 13:12 |
| Stskeeps | seriously | 13:12 |
| Stskeeps | i never got into it much with n800 | 13:12 |
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| kimmoli | +1 for booting from SD... | 13:13 |
| * tbr has a pile of various simple cables (micro a or micro-ab to USB-A) and one true OTG cable with mini-B to mini-a | 13:14 | |
| tbr | bbl | 13:15 |
| sec | I WANT TO BREAK FREEEE | 13:15 |
| * sec runs | 13:15 | |
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| r0kk3rz | i dont think ive ever used usbotg | 13:25 |
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| tbr | r0kk3rz: I've never used true OTG, only the "easy" variety where you tie the ID pin to something and the controller goes to host mode so that you can attach a usb storage or usb-serial device | 13:56 |
| r0kk3rz | tbr i thought that was what usbotg was, intelligent host mode for mobile devices | 13:57 |
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| tbr | r0kk3rz: it's much more, if you think you can stay sane, look deeper down into the rabbit hole of dynamic mode negotiation and other things | 13:59 |
| tbr | the statemachine is huge that I saw | 13:59 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah right | 14:00 |
| r0kk3rz | sounds like fun | 14:00 |
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| * Stskeeps is learning way too much about UEFI | 14:28 | |
| r0kk3rz | its certainly a bag of cats, to use your expression :P | 14:33 |
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| SKyd3R | yey | 14:52 |
| Stskeeps | mm? | 14:53 |
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| anYc | does someone know if the games of the humblebundle are playable on the jolla? https://www.humblebundle.com/mobile | 15:13 |
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| lainwir3d | better a bag of cats than a bag of rats | 15:29 |
| Nc_ | ? | 15:30 |
| SKyd3R | lol, https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/2014/ not Jolla :/ | 15:32 |
| FireFly | Hardly a surprise, is it? | 15:32 |
| SKyd3R | why? It was for me | 15:33 |
| SKyd3R | I hardly see an Android based system being supported by FSF | 15:34 |
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| FireFly | Proprietary UI bits etc etc | 15:35 |
| FireFly | Supposedly the particular Android flavour they mention makes sure to not include anything non-FOSS | 15:35 |
| SKyd3R | ok, I get it | 15:37 |
| SKyd3R | :( | 15:38 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah its not android, its replicant | 15:39 |
| r0kk3rz | similar, but different in key ways | 15:39 |
| * tbr wonders if a FSF blessed android device comes with a bank of WORM chips for all the binary blobs | 15:42 | |
| SKyd3R | the thing is that if I don't happen to have a mobile device supported by replicant, I can't use it | 15:42 |
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| SKyd3R | I have to buy an Android device in order to delete Android and have replicant | 15:43 |
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| SKyd3R | and maby I won't be able to use the Camera/GPS or whatever | 15:45 |
| SKyd3R | I don't see it has an iOS alternative | 15:45 |
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| r0kk3rz | http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/ReplicantImages | 15:53 |
| r0kk3rz | thats a fairly short list of device images | 15:53 |
| r0kk3rz | and they're all old phones | 15:54 |
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| SKyd3R | yeah, but what I'm saying is that I have to buy those phones in order to can put replicant on them | 16:34 |
| SKyd3R | I don't have any of those | 16:34 |
| Yaniel | anYc: try it out? | 16:36 |
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| stephg | apropos of nothing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daysCqmqd2Y | 18:48 |
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| stephg | it is peculiarly spellbinding | 18:49 |
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| coderus | i really need any working way to remove that FU***NG autostart of android apps. | 20:12 |
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| r0kk3rz | coderus: surely you can write a script to kill dalvik on boot | 20:18 |
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| javispedro | or try to do it in whatever way android guys do it | 20:26 |
| coderus | you dont understand | 20:27 |
| coderus | i need to disable anroid apps autostart | 20:27 |
| alterego | r0kk3rz: would make more sense disabling the dalvik service through systemctl | 20:27 |
| r0kk3rz | or that | 20:27 |
| alterego | coderus: what javis said? | 20:28 |
| javispedro | ... specially because if you kill the dalvik service then android apps don't work.. | 20:28 |
| r0kk3rz | although i think we arent getting what you mean coderus | 20:29 |
| coderus | alterego: yes, that way | 20:30 |
| coderus | i tired of skype, hangouts and other starting and logging automatically | 20:30 |
| salyavin | systemctl stop aliendalvik.service | 20:31 |
| salyavin | systemctl disable aliendalvik.service | 20:31 |
| salyavin | that's clean it right up | 20:31 |
| _inte_ | coderus: https://together.jolla.com/question/60500/alien-dalvik-how-to-stop-autostart/ | 20:31 |
| javispedro | .oO(meh, for a second I thought someone MAY have been complaining about the qcom android crap) | 20:31 |
| _inte_ | you need to copy the script from over there | 20:32 |
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| _inte_ | it looks like it would work | 20:32 |
| phaeron | coderus: maybe https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rs.autorun&hl=en | 20:32 |
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| phaeron | check what it does and script it | 20:33 |
| * _inte_ personally hits the "dalvik stop!"button after eacht reboot | 20:33 | |
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| _inte_ | oh. or do you rather want to keep dalvik alive but have no apps autostarted? | 20:33 |
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| salyavin | While I'm not running skype would it not have an option inside it to not autostart? | 20:43 |
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| _inte_ | i installed it once and i think it doesnt autostart for me even when dalvik is running | 20:46 |
| salyavin | phaeron mentioned autorun manager looks very promising. I see it is also available outside google play | 20:46 |
| _inte_ | hangout is beeing autostarted and i dont know how to kill that | 20:46 |
| _inte_ | i mean, apart from "Dalvik stop!" | 20:46 |
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| salyavin | http://www.androidpit.com/autorun-manager-prevent-automatic-startups | 20:47 |
| salyavin | should work for most things. Goodness things could get out of control on an android phone. | 20:47 |
| coderus | _inte_: yep, when you starting any app all dalvik autostarts are running | 20:48 |
| _inte_ | so you want dalvik running but no apps? | 20:49 |
| coderus | i want to disable android apps autostart | 20:50 |
| coderus | it have no any other meaning than default | 20:50 |
| coderus | and all apps i tried not working on jolla | 20:51 |
| coderus | means apps for managing autostarts | 20:51 |
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| _inte_ | like https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=imoblife.startupmanager | 20:52 |
| _inte_ | ? | 20:52 |
| _inte_ | I have never tried that, Im just killing dalvik, sorry | 20:53 |
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| _inte_ | but since android processes appear in e.g. lighthouse as well it should be quite simple to kill those unwanted processes through a script | 20:54 |
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| _inte_ | similar like the dalvik stop! script | 20:54 |
| _inte_ | havent tried that yet, though | 20:54 |
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| r0kk3rz | wouldnt it be better to switch off the autostart in the offending apps | 21:00 |
| r0kk3rz | i know you can with skype | 21:00 |
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| salyavin | So you have seen the option inside Android Skype for certain r0kk3rz? How about Hangouts for _inte_ | 21:06 |
| coderus | ah really i understand i choosed wrong channel to ask initially :D | 21:06 |
| salyavin | well coderus what channel do you think is good? You're running aliendalvik which is not quite real android so not sure asking in an android channel would work. | 21:07 |
| _inte_ | worth a try | 21:07 |
| _inte_ | however | 21:07 |
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| _inte_ | coderus have you checked this startupmanager? | 21:08 |
| _inte_ | was my first hit on google and seems to work on real android | 21:08 |
| salyavin | It's a good warning for me about installing things like hangouts that might autostart. | 21:08 |
| alterego | I really doubt hangouts would have a don't start button. Doesn't seem like something google would do :P | 21:08 |
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| _inte_ | im not even sure if its possible to disable whatsapp | 21:09 |
| coderus | nevermind | 21:09 |
| coderus | i'll stop asking and tell you if i found something working | 21:10 |
| _inte_ | i mean whatsapp not mitakuuluu | 21:10 |
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| narchie | saapunki when | 22:28 |
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| Stskeeps | M4rtinK: also, while i have you.. how much do you know about UEFI? | 22:34 |
| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: mostly some basics unfortunately | 22:35 |
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| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: but know a few people who are pretty well versed in it | 22:36 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 22:37 |
| Stskeeps | i guess a pretty good test of openness is if people can boot fedora | 22:38 |
| M4rtinK | first of them is Adam Williamson - he had a quite through talk about UEFI on Flock this year: | 22:39 |
| M4rtinK | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmoeEM_eCQo | 22:39 |
| M4rtinK | "UEFI: The Great Satan and you" :) | 22:39 |
| Stskeeps | ok, i'll watch that | 22:39 |
| Stskeeps | and yes, it certainly feels like i'm hugging satan.. | 22:39 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:39 |
| M4rtinK | and he is behind the Fedlet project (getting Fedora to run on bay trail tablets) | 22:40 |
| M4rtinK | https://www.happyassassin.net/fedlet-a-fedora-remix-for-bay-trail-tablets/ | 22:40 |
| M4rtinK | (I'm sure I've already posted this link :) ) | 22:40 |
| M4rtinK | so I would say a perfect match for this initiative :) | 22:40 |
| Stskeeps | yeah i saw that one before | 22:40 |
| M4rtinK | you can usually get hold of him on #fedora-qa (here on freenode) in european afternoon/evening (he is in the west coast timezone) | 22:42 |
| M4rtinK | nick: adamw | 22:42 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 22:42 |
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| M4rtinK | and if everything else fails | 22:50 |
| M4rtinK | you might want to try asking Peter Jones :) | 22:50 |
| M4rtinK | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pjones | 22:51 |
| M4rtinK | he should know quite a bit about it :) | 22:51 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 22:51 |
| * Stskeeps calls it a night | 22:52 | |
| M4rtinK | good point :) | 22:52 |
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