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| bef0rd | http://matasano.com/research/eko2014_jolla.pdf | 02:51 |
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| covox | bef0rd: very cool | 03:52 |
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| gexc-phone | Friday for update? | 06:40 |
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| Stskeeps | never update on fridays | 06:43 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 06:43 |
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| gexc-phone | 😲 | 06:47 |
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| salyavin | Why not more time to fix your phone | 06:47 |
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| Tofe | Stskeeps: tss, I don't see what could go wrong :p | 07:53 |
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| Tofe | I'm currently having problems receiving mms on 1.0.8 sailfish, has the mms stack been improved in 1.1.0 ? | 07:55 |
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| Tofe | or do I directly follow the troubleshooting steps for mms described on tjc | 07:55 |
| Stskeeps | it has typically | 07:55 |
| Tofe | ok good; then I'll give it a try, anyway the next update should not be far away now | 07:57 |
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| lainwir3d | hi o/ | 08:03 |
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| Wnt | bef0rd: interesting presentation, thanks for sharing! | 08:10 |
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| Tofe | Is that presentation the same as one we saw on TMO some time ago ? | 08:12 |
| Tofe | still, very interesting testing and hacking. | 08:14 |
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| HtheB | Stskeeps: hi | 08:58 |
| Stskeeps | nmoo | 08:58 |
| stephg | bef0rd: that's cool reading | 08:59 |
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| trigpoint | is there a way to turn off the volume nag thing? | 09:17 |
| alterego | trigpoint: It does it once every boot I believe | 09:19 |
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| HtheB | nmoo? | 09:23 |
| Tofe | HtheB: I guess it's a kind of morning moo | 09:24 |
| HtheB | i thought only cows moo'ed :pp | 09:25 |
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| lainwir3d | hmmm, the funding is increasing too slowly :-/ | 09:39 |
| lainwir3d | I'm afraid we won't get to 1.750.000 | 09:40 |
| lainwir3d | I want that split screen :'( | 09:40 |
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| SK_work | me too | 09:40 |
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| Tofe | The split screen will eventually come I guess, but we may have much longer to wait, as ressources won't be put on that in priority | 09:47 |
| HtheB | lainwir3d: i want shit screen :( | 09:48 |
| lainwir3d | shit screen ? What is that ? A brown screen ? | 09:49 |
| lainwir3d | which smells bad | 09:49 |
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| HtheB | haha | 09:54 |
| HtheB | split screen, shit screen, they just are all the same :P | 09:54 |
| HtheB | they are just all the same* :P | 09:54 |
| HtheB | we need at least: multi screen | 09:54 |
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| RaYmAn | I'm sort of curious what will actually change if we get to 1.5mill... Different MicroSD controller? | 10:01 |
| Stskeeps | bill gates shows up on stage? | 10:02 |
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| SK_work | RaYmAn: pay license to Samsung | 10:06 |
| RaYmAn | ah | 10:06 |
| RaYmAn | that makes sense then | 10:06 |
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| RaYmAn | I was confused because specwise the controller seems to fully support it | 10:07 |
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| pp_ | or tuxera | 10:08 |
| RaYmAn | ugh, so it's not for sdcard support, it's just for exFat? | 10:09 |
| pp_ | would explain :-) | 10:09 |
| RaYmAn | yeah. | 10:09 |
| pp_ | if only the industry did something else :-) | 10:10 |
| Stskeeps | remember that us geeks have very different perception of what is possible and what's not when it comes to sdxc.. | 10:10 |
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| Acce | I pay you, you pay me, we're a happy industry | 10:10 |
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| Stskeeps | not to mention better sd card support in os.. | 10:10 |
| Acce | sing it with this melody: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixVfNgGe0ro | 10:11 |
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| r0kk3rz | if you claim support, people assume its 'plug n play' | 10:17 |
| r0kk3rz | currently large sd cards is not plug and play | 10:17 |
| r0kk3rz | but it does suck that the issue with sxdc isnt a technical one, but a shitty proprietary licence one | 10:18 |
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| RaYmAn | even more so since it's more of a patent problem now since samsung has a public GPL driver for exfat. | 10:20 |
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| Acce | wish few micro distributors would appear | 10:25 |
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| lainwir3d | that would be nice indeed | 10:44 |
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| r0kk3rz | or people stu | 10:51 |
| r0kk3rz | stop supporting propriatary standards | 10:51 |
| r0kk3rz | its so backwards "hey heres a standard for everyone to use so stuff works together" | 10:51 |
| r0kk3rz | "oh btw, everyone needs to pay us for being awesome" | 10:52 |
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| lainwir3d | hehe | 10:54 |
| kimmoli | http://xkcd.com/927/ | 10:54 |
| lainwir3d | hehe, I know this one :) | 10:55 |
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| jonwil | Ultimately it comes down to the fact that SD card makers and device makers need to use something supported by Windows (the most popular OS) and in the cases where good old FAT cant handle it, ExFat is your only option. | 10:58 |
| jonwil | Forcing end users to install, say, an Ext2 driver or whatever just wont work for a mass-market product | 10:58 |
| jonwil | like an SDXC card | 10:59 |
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| Pawky | does anyone in here know anything about the indiegogo campain? | 11:02 |
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| lainwir3d | what indiegogo campaign ? | 11:03 |
| Pawky | I bought one tablet perk for like $204 but later updates from the site having more perks, also one stating $20 shipment "for those who forgot to buy it with their tablet perk" | 11:03 |
| lainwir3d | oh | 11:04 |
| lainwir3d | did you add 20$ for the shipping in your 204$ perk ? | 11:04 |
| Pawky | Well, I didn't by any extra shipment... what will that lead to in the end, I am a future owner of a tablet located in Finland? | 11:04 |
| lainwir3d | if you didn't, you need to get the $20 perk | 11:04 |
| Teemu | finland is a good place to be | 11:04 |
| Pawky | but is it really my problem they didn't include it?... | 11:04 |
| lainwir3d | It was written everywhere actually | 11:05 |
| Tegu | I wonder why it's separated if there basically is no other option | 11:05 |
| Pawky | They cannot sell a tablet without including any form of shipment in my oppinion. | 11:05 |
| lainwir3d | even on the 204$ perk page | 11:05 |
| Pawky | as they do not have any store to where I will be able to fetch it.. hence they MUST send it anyway. | 11:05 |
| suosaaski | IIRC you can go buy the shipment separately | 11:05 |
| lainwir3d | yeah, just logistics I guess | 11:05 |
| Pawky | but its sheer stupidity | 11:05 |
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| Pawky | I have never EVER been able to buy a product online without any shipment | 11:06 |
| Pawky | so, what will it lead to in the end? | 11:06 |
| Pawky | if I am not to buy the extra shipment? | 11:06 |
| Stskeeps | this is an indiegogo campaign, not a shop, fwiw.. | 11:06 |
| lainwir3d | I guess they just wanted the shipment to appear separately on the page, that's all | 11:06 |
| Stskeeps | but if you're confused, ask a comment on the page | 11:06 |
| Jonni | heh, even I had to order shipping seperately, as I didnt figure out how to add 20$ when I ordered the thingie. | 11:06 |
| tbr | also it says on the page to add 20 for shipping | 11:06 |
| Pawky | Stskeeps: fair enough.. | 11:06 |
| Pawky | but what happens if I don't? | 11:06 |
| lainwir3d | it's just a donation then :P | 11:07 |
| Pawky | what will the legal result be? | 11:07 |
| Pawky | lainwir3d: no, that cannot be | 11:07 |
| Teemu | you can legally buy a product and not have it shipped | 11:07 |
| tbr | Pawky: the result will be that they can't ship you the tablet and will ask you to pay the 20 | 11:07 |
| Pawky | how is jolla to deal with everybody not buying it? | 11:07 |
| Teemu | can happen in a lot of web stores | 11:07 |
| Teemu | not only this indiegogo | 11:07 |
| Jonni | well most likely they will ask for shipment when device is ready to be shipper, or reimbursh you if your not paying... but care can answer those questions if you have probs. | 11:08 |
| Pawky | tbr: like, sending an e-mail? an invoce?... | 11:08 |
| suosaaski | It really says on the page before you click on the perk. "Please add $20 for shipping by adding an "additional gift" of @40 on the next page. | 11:08 |
| Pawky | Jonni: Nah.. no probs, just curious about it, thats all.. | 11:08 |
| tbr | Pawky: that is left to them and I can not answer that question. | 11:08 |
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| Teemu | modern webstores tend to automagically add shipping but this is really not a legal problem | 11:08 |
| suosaaski | $20, not @40 :D | 11:08 |
| Teemu | you're supposed to look at what you're doing and they _did_ provide cues in the text | 11:09 |
| kimmoli | "placing the perk you agree this and that" | 11:09 |
| suosaaski | Also, scrolling down... "Forgot to add $20 for shipping your Jolla Tablet? No worries, just get this Perk and use the same shipping information as with the Tablet Perk" | 11:09 |
| Pawky | well.. but you must agree upon the stupidity selling an item without including any shipment having the option to exclude it if need be. | 11:09 |
| Teemu | they just didn't auto-add shipping and many many many great many people just clicked blindingly fast "SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY" | 11:09 |
| Jonni | but true, order experience could have been easier if shipping would have been automaticly included in there. | 11:10 |
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| Pawky | suosaaski: yeah, I know and I will, but i was just pondering about the net result of it all.. | 11:10 |
| Teemu | yes, auto-adding shipping would have been good | 11:10 |
| Pawky | Jonni: yeah, now I have to buy it separately again using my card.. | 11:10 |
| kimmoli | but then the price had to start from 209 not 189 | 11:10 |
| Pawky | kimmoli: well that will be the net price anyway | 11:10 |
| kimmoli | yes, but is marketing... | 11:11 |
| kimmoli | it could be 209 including "FREE SHIPPING" | 11:11 |
| Pawky | or are Jolla trying to make it sound cheaper than it is?.. I | 11:11 |
| kimmoli | there is no such thing as free shipping | 11:11 |
| Pawky | no, I haven't spoken about free shiping, but shiping included. | 11:11 |
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| tbr | same difference | 11:12 |
| lainwir3d | Maybe it's a limitation of indiegogo too | 11:12 |
| Pawky | but thanks for answering my questions, i will just have to buy another perk then... | 11:12 |
| lainwir3d | I don't really know indiegogo :/ | 11:12 |
| kimmoli | IGG is not a shop | 11:12 |
| kimmoli | neither is kickstarter | 11:12 |
| Pawky | no, but the pricing should have included shipping at least for europe | 11:12 |
| kimmoli | typically those say "includes shipping in US", add $100 for europe | 11:12 |
| suosaaski | are europeans more likely to forget to add the shipping? :) | 11:13 |
| Pawky | well it will do so automatically when you give the delivery address | 11:13 |
| Pawky | suosaaski: no... but i believe the pricing will differ when including the world... | 11:13 |
| kimmoli | on kickstarter. dont actually know does iGG has such feature at all? | 11:13 |
| lainwir3d | I agree that tohkbd did it better with kickstarter | 11:13 |
| Pawky | kimmoli: well i believe its jolla who puts in what pricing for which items. | 11:14 |
| lainwir3d | displaying stock price, and once your "order" it it displays shipping price in addition | 11:14 |
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| kimmoli | worst thing would have been that there is nothing about on shipping on IGG, and when it is time to get the thing, campaign owner wants $20 for shipping. | 11:15 |
| Pawky | I still don't know what to do with the tablet though... i mean its exactly the same as the phone... some pixels less or more give and take... | 11:15 |
| Pawky | actually, you cannot even use it for 3g... | 11:15 |
| Pawky | so its a lesser unit compared to the phone | 11:15 |
| kimmoli | (unless it hits 2.5M$) | 11:16 |
| kimmoli | wonder will that 3g have voice then? | 11:16 |
| Pawky | yeah, so i read.. coudln't figure out if it meant jolla wants people to just give them more money or if that means if they sell more tablets? | 11:16 |
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| Pawky | kimmoli: i presume you will be able to usea earphones, as with most others.. | 11:17 |
| Pawky | What the tablet really needs to differentiate is a wacom pen. | 11:17 |
| Pawky | I have it on one of my tablets, and its a great extra feature | 11:18 |
| nazanin | coderus: ping | 11:22 |
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| SpeedEvil | Pen is unlikely - it requires actual hardware | 11:24 |
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| SpeedEvil | Pawky: I think what it means is that the tablet has existing hardware in order to do 3.5G. This is not approved, and the cheapest way to get it approved will take some time - hence the mention of (IIRC) Q3 2015 software upgrades | 11:24 |
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| SpeedEvil | If the milestone is hit - they'll push approval through much faster | 11:25 |
| SpeedEvil | I would expect otherwise - Q3/2015 or earlier if the milestone is hit - the option for existing owners to upgrade in software | 11:26 |
| SpeedEvil | This is all speculation based on the page. | 11:26 |
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| ab | SpeedEvil: I think they are a bit unclear but basically what they say is that for +$30 you'd get a model with 3.5G hardware but it will not be usable until that software update will come | 11:30 |
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| ab | SpeedEvil: which makes sense as they have to certify it | 11:30 |
| ab | SpeedEvil: however, this does not mean that original hardware has 3.5G hardware bits included | 11:30 |
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| SpeedEvil | AIUI - it's likely as it's integrated. | 11:32 |
| SpeedEvil | In the chipset | 11:32 |
| Pawky | I agree | 11:32 |
| SpeedEvil | I should look into this in more detail | 11:32 |
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| SpeedEvil | But that is my understanding. It will require a minimal number of external components - certainly not $30s worth to do it | 11:33 |
| Pawky | what happens if Jolla doesn't deliver a tablet, will they still have the money? | 11:33 |
| Pawky | or do they have to prove to indiegogo they actually have a tablet before getting the money? | 11:33 |
| SpeedEvil | They do not have to prove that. | 11:33 |
| SpeedEvil | You basically need to show some videos or stuff with at least partially working hardware | 11:34 |
| Pawky | so.. i can just put up a to good to be true gizmo and then... oops cannot deliver? | 11:34 |
| leinir | common misconception about crowdsourcing campaigns - you have not bought a tablet, you have given money to someone, who promises that if they are successful in producing a product, they will deliver one to you | 11:34 |
| leinir | essentially yes | 11:34 |
| SpeedEvil | leinir: The views of lawmakers differ around the world - in many places for example for import duties, it is _not_ a gift. | 11:34 |
| Pawky | hmm... i thought the very thing was a guarante "if you deliver you have money" type of deal. To which they should be able to get funding to produce the product | 11:34 |
| Pawky | they cannot put VAT on a gift | 11:35 |
| SpeedEvil | They get the money before delivering goods. | 11:35 |
| SpeedEvil | However - I would be astonished if this product hadn't been largely done before the campaign | 11:36 |
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| Pawky | thats sad, and will make me much more hesitant to pay for crowd soured things... | 11:36 |
| leinir | in essence yes - you are putting your trust in the people you give money to, so if they are trustworthy, then you're fine | 11:36 |
| Pawky | sounds pretty bad... the marketing strategy should be the money will be reserved when until the terms are met | 11:37 |
| leinir | but if you don't feel you can trust the people running the campaign, the same applies as to any deal made in a dark alleyway | 11:37 |
| SpeedEvil | Pawky: then you restrict ks/... to only people who can get loans | 11:37 |
| ab | SpeedEvil: given that the funding round ends on December 12th, they have enough time to order a different chipset version. There are four of them: http://ark.intel.com/compare/80271,76759,80270,78416 | 11:37 |
| SpeedEvil | Pawky: or have existing funding and are purely using it to advertise | 11:37 |
| Pawky | well.. as you might know, companies many times underestimate the total cost of a product, and in the end they might not be able to deliver | 11:37 |
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| Pawky | SpeedEvil: yes, but who wouldn't be able to get a loan when you can prove you have the funding? | 11:38 |
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| Pawky | if you cannot get this, the business might be shady | 11:38 |
| SpeedEvil | Pawky: shitloads of people | 11:39 |
| SpeedEvil | Pawky: you're making the assumption that banks have people who are technically able to assess products. | 11:39 |
| Pawky | shitloads of shady companies.. | 11:39 |
| SpeedEvil | They do not. | 11:39 |
| Pawky | I see it as preselling the product, getting stock orders.. | 11:39 |
| SpeedEvil | Kickstarter is not only used by large established companies. | 11:40 |
| Pawky | SpeedEvil: no, I am assuming they can see people are willing to buy stuff and have given money ahead for it. | 11:40 |
| SpeedEvil | Pawky: If the buisness can't get the money until they ship - then you need a source of loans | 11:41 |
| SpeedEvil | raising the above concerns | 11:41 |
| ab | Pawky: I don't think they didn't know that. What this crowdfunding round gives them is actually a leverage when talking to real investors | 11:41 |
| Pawky | yes, and crowd sourcing could be the middle man for it :-) | 11:41 |
| Pawky | by having reserved money, all anybody has to do is to show the bank the money and orders exist, and now they can be in on it funding the product to deliver to all those happy customers :-) | 11:42 |
| SpeedEvil | For 'proper' buisnesses that can raise capital - KS is just advertising and helping to raise confidence of investors and reducing costs of money | 11:42 |
| * Nav thinks Pawky is completely missing the point of crowdfunding | 11:42 | |
| ab | exactly | 11:42 |
| SpeedEvil | Pawky: you're again assuming that the bank is willing to take the risk that the company can't deliver. And can accurately assess this risk. | 11:43 |
| Pawky | no, many times you have an idea, but maybe you don't know the market | 11:43 |
| SpeedEvil | Pawky: plus - banks simply do not do this for small amounts of money. | 11:43 |
| Pawky | with crowd sourcing you can get people who like the idea reserv money to buy it once you can ship | 11:43 |
| Pawky | SpeedEvil: that must probably be country dependent then... | 11:44 |
| SpeedEvil | Really? | 11:44 |
| SpeedEvil | Name one country in which you can find a technically competent assessment of a technology project manufacturer asking for a $20K loan. | 11:44 |
| Pawky | so, if you have prepaid orders, you can lend upon it | 11:44 |
| SpeedEvil | Routinely | 11:44 |
| Pawky | SpeedEvil: Europe | 11:45 |
| SpeedEvil | lolz | 11:45 |
| ab | Pawky: in this case people already paid through IGG | 11:45 |
| SpeedEvil | I'm in the UK - and it doesn't work that way here | 11:45 |
| ab | Pawky: there is no "reserve", money were paid. | 11:45 |
| Pawky | yes, but if Jolla will go bust in christmass or suddenly get the tab for all software development, they might never create a product, and your money is gone. | 11:46 |
| Pawky | ab: blatantly not, but this could be the very way crowd sourcing is to work. | 11:47 |
| SpeedEvil | And the chances of going bust are higher if they had to go to investors to get the money for the crowdsourced products | 11:47 |
| Pawky | and still less if they will have the orders reserved once they can deliver | 11:47 |
| Pawky | my version will make more people dare to invest | 11:47 |
| Pawky | "money back if no product" | 11:47 |
| SpeedEvil | And would make ks/... useless for small companies. | 11:48 |
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| Pawky | that is not true | 11:48 |
| Pawky | its all about money in, money out | 11:48 |
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| Pawky | if you can lower the risk, the willingness to give loans increases dramaticaly | 11:48 |
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| SpeedEvil | _assuming_ the people who are giving the loan are willing and capable of assessing that risk. | 11:49 |
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| Pawky | well, its a bank... | 11:49 |
| SpeedEvil | And banks, in many countries simply won't do that - especially for small buisnesses. | 11:49 |
| Pawky | and, of course its partially up to the company to convince the bank, which they can once they show the prepaid orders | 11:50 |
| Pawky | you don't have to sell it to banks, but investers.. | 11:50 |
| SpeedEvil | banks or other investors | 11:50 |
| Pawky | investors will happily contribute | 11:50 |
| SpeedEvil | And take a cut | 11:50 |
| Pawky | thats part of their whole business idea | 11:50 |
| Pawky | but of course | 11:50 |
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| Pawky | but the less the risk, the less the cut | 11:50 |
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| SpeedEvil | _assuming_ the people who are giving the loan are willing and capable of assessing that risk. | 11:51 |
| SpeedEvil | And I'm out | 11:51 |
| Pawky | :-) | 11:51 |
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| SpeedEvil | ab: I don't see any mention of mobile support in any of those. Am I missing somthing? | 11:56 |
| ab | SpeedEvil: that's my point, it is a separate chip | 11:57 |
| SpeedEvil | ah | 11:57 |
| SpeedEvil | I thought it was integrated into the chipset | 11:57 |
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| SpeedEvil | http://thedroidguy.com/2014/05/intel-partners-rockchip-next-gen-atom-processors-android-tablets-92742 I may have been thinking of | 12:09 |
| SpeedEvil | 'The quad-core SoFIA processors with integrated 3G modem is expected to ship out in the first half of next year alongside the version with the LTE modem. | 12:10 |
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| meklu | that sounds a bit iffy :/ | 12:12 |
| meklu | a mobile modem integrated into a cpu doesn't sound too inviting to me | 12:12 |
| SpeedEvil | It depends how it's done | 12:14 |
| SpeedEvil | It can lead to unfortunate requirements on software | 12:14 |
| SpeedEvil | or it can basically be the 'high level' IP imported onto the chip, and running as a block not interacting with the processor | 12:15 |
| pp_ | it can be pcie or usb in reality, I'd guess | 12:15 |
| meklu | yeah | 12:15 |
| SpeedEvil | Actually integrating the modemo on board rather than adding a module lowers cost. | 12:15 |
| SpeedEvil | In high volumes anyway | 12:15 |
| SpeedEvil | in-chip even more | 12:16 |
| SpeedEvil | http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ESP8266-Serial-WIFI-Wireless-TransceiveR-Module-Sender-Receiver-LWIP-AP-STA-New-/271596948485?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3f3c708c05 I note | 12:16 |
| SpeedEvil | integrated CPU+wifi for under 3 dollars | 12:16 |
| SpeedEvil | with the ability to run your own code with gcc | 12:16 |
| meklu | says £3.98 | 12:16 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah - not cheapest | 12:17 |
| meklu | which isn't exactly under 3 dollars | 12:17 |
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| SpeedEvil | http://www.aliexpress.com/item/LA32A330J1N-BN44-00235B-power-board-In-stock-Best-price-and-good-service/637799775.html | 12:18 |
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| Pawky | I am quite amazed Jolla can put forwar "There are no back doors or anything third parties could use for monitoring your activity." when users have no control what so ever what the android apps are silently doing in the background... | 12:21 |
| SpeedEvil | Android apps have significantly less access to system functions than on android AIUI | 12:21 |
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| SpeedEvil | Conversely - this makes some apps not work even though the user might desire the function | 12:22 |
| Pawky | SpeedEvil: so, exactly what information can the android apps get hold of? | 12:22 |
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| SpeedEvil | I haven't investigated this in detail | 12:23 |
| Pawky | and how does a Jolla user limit this? | 12:23 |
| Tofe | SpeedEvil: when I read this sentence, I think more of the qualcomm blobs than of the android apps, imho | 12:23 |
| Pawky | Well, its hard to investigate because its not stated anywhere... | 12:23 |
| SpeedEvil | Whatever the mobile solution chosen, it is basically certain that Jolla will not have full source of the modem | 12:24 |
| Tofe | SpeedEvil: sure, I'm not saying there is a solution at the moment | 12:24 |
| SpeedEvil | In principle, you can make your own open-source modem and get it approved. | 12:25 |
| SpeedEvil | This will be quite expensive - I'd guess several millions - for a very very power hungry device | 12:25 |
| Tofe | SpeedEvil: don't you get blocked by some licensing restrictions, some blocking patent? I'm not so sure it's even possible | 12:26 |
| FireFly | Pawky: AIUI the Android apps run in a translation layer not unlike wine, so it seems reasonable that they'd restrict/fake the result to some of the things apps request (like phone access and such). But I agree, it'd be nice to know in more detail | 12:27 |
| Pawky | I believe making it part of the Jolla device to give the user full control over the android environment will be a sheer uperhand to its competitors :-) | 12:28 |
| Tofe | Indeed it would be nice to know more about how the OS interacts with the android VM -- at least what that can be disclosed. | 12:30 |
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| pp_ | it's not that difficult to trace aliendalvik :-) | 12:33 |
| Armadillo | nazanin In the case you're doing the next TaskList QA on monday, I added a qa comment to describe what#s the current status. :-) | 12:33 |
| nazanin | Armadillo: thanks :) | 12:34 |
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| Pawky | more one year into jolla being on the , and still nearly no usable sailfish apps in sight, could we safely conclude its a failure? Or are there tons of programmers out there at the launch state of their new cool apps that will revolutionize the world, to prove me wrong? | 12:59 |
| Pawky | (market) | 12:59 |
| Nicd- | "jolla being on the ,"? | 13:00 |
| meklu | market | 13:00 |
| Pawky | :-) | 13:00 |
| tadzik | "no usable apps in sight"? A bit of an overstatement | 13:00 |
| Nicd- | I'm quite positive my weechat app will blow everyone's minds | 13:00 |
| Pawky | yes, maybe a bit, but looking upon my phone most of them are android... | 13:00 |
| tadzik | I'm still waiting for that one >:( | 13:00 |
| Nicd- | that's why I haven't released it yet because everyone would die of excitement | 13:00 |
| Pawky | which wasn't really why I bought the phone. | 13:00 |
| tadzik | that's the problem with you and your phone :P | 13:00 |
| Pawky | well, if people mostly use it for android apps, then we must make this envoironment more controllable from a user perspective. | 13:02 |
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| Armadillo | feel free to contribute many apps | 13:02 |
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| Nicd- | tadzik: weechat user? | 13:02 |
| Pawky | Armadillo: conclusion, If i do not contribute it will be a failure? | 13:03 |
| Pawky | My question is, why do we not see more true sailfish apps? | 13:03 |
| meklu | no one can force people to develop applications | 13:03 |
| Armadillo | Pawky depends on the user specific needs | 13:03 |
| Nicd- | Pawky: too small userbase | 13:03 |
| Pawky | is it because people are safing by creating android apps? | 13:04 |
| meklu | it seems like most 'apps' nowadays are just some shit frontends to web services anyway | 13:04 |
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| Armadillo | have a look at the store | 13:04 |
| tadzik | Nicd-: yeah | 13:04 |
| Nicd- | it's a chicken-and-egg problem | 13:04 |
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| Armadillo | there were several news apps in the lats days | 13:04 |
| Armadillo | last | 13:04 |
| Nicd- | can't get users without apps and can't get apps without users | 13:04 |
| tadzik | you can get apps with money | 13:04 |
| Pawky | Nicd-: well, if it is, then my suspicions are right, it is a failure.. | 13:04 |
| Nicd- | tadzik: you can't get money without users :P | 13:04 |
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| Pawky | then again, no apps, no users | 13:04 |
| meklu | it's probably got a bunch to do with the US plans as well... | 13:05 |
| Nicd- | Pawky: I would hardly call it a failure. the phone is selling in many markets, the company seems to be doing ok, the OS is progressing. all this from a very small company | 13:05 |
| Pawky | maybe Jolla isn't making it interesting enough for programmers to start converting their apps to Sailfish? | 13:05 |
| meklu | the lack of activity there isn't so great I'd say | 13:05 |
| japa-fi | I get deja-vu fromthe OS/2 days: Nobody bought OS/2 because there wan't any apps for it. Nobody developed apps because a) not too many users and B) "you can run the windows version in OS/2" | 13:05 |
| Pawky | Nicd-: I am not talking about the phone, but about sailfish apps.. | 13:05 |
| japa-fi | So I'd say android compability is double edged sword for jolla | 13:05 |
| meklu | definitely | 13:05 |
| inz | Nobody bought OS/2 because you could get it for free from any expo | 13:06 |
| Pawky | japa-fi: exactly, spot on! | 13:06 |
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| Nicd- | tadzik: you can download and compile it already, if you want | 13:06 |
| Nicd- | tadzik: just don't try to open buffers that you have closed in weechat... :) | 13:06 |
| inz | It was nice to get 25-ish 3,5" floppies from IBM | 13:06 |
| Armadillo | Pawky if you're missing aps you could also mention on some TJC posts where users request new apps | 13:07 |
| Pawky | I thought lots of apps from the N9 and N900 would be converted into Sailfish, but nope... | 13:07 |
| Armadillo | lol | 13:07 |
| Pawky | inz: Well, i got it on a CD | 13:08 |
| Armadillo | complaining is easy | 13:08 |
| Pawky | OS/2 did run Windows more stable than windows itself, funny... | 13:08 |
| tadzik | Nicd-: where from? | 13:08 |
| Nicd- | tadzik: https://bitbucket.org/vincit/harbour-weechatrelay/overview | 13:08 |
| Pawky | Armadillo: complaining is easy, meaning? | 13:08 |
| inz | Pawky, got it on a CD aswell (hence could re-use the floppies) | 13:09 |
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| Pawky | inz: i believe i still have some windows 3.11 on like... 21 diskettes.. | 13:09 |
| Armadillo | Pawky I don't know anyone who's developing for Sailfish on a professional level, so all of us are doing this in our free time | 13:09 |
| Armadillo | so complaining about not ported apps is easy, but porting itself takes a lot of time | 13:10 |
| Pawky | Armadillo: well, would i have written a program for the other phones I would of course have converted them. But its to easy to say "do it yourself if you complain". | 13:12 |
| Armadillo | Pawky I assume there are many open source app, which you can port even if you haven't written them yourself ;) | 13:12 |
| Pawky | I am just trying to find out the very reason why Sailfish still hasn't taken off.. | 13:13 |
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| Stskeeps | it's not because we don't have gnumeric ported. | 13:13 |
| Pawky | Armadillo: true.. and that will be one more app... but hey... why aren't everybody doing it?... | 13:13 |
| Armadillo | well I think is currently on a much higher level than maemo, Meego, moblin or Tizen ever were | 13:13 |
| Pawky | am I spotting a silent abandonment of the very OS? | 13:13 |
| Armadillo | and the tablet will bring more change for sure | 13:13 |
| Pawky | Armadillo: well, I believe it actually might not. Looking in my back mirror, the only thing I see is people mostly using android apps on the Jolla | 13:14 |
| Armadillo | Pawky because of no more free time, kids, work, family, reason ;) | 13:14 |
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| Pawky | and thats in an environment much less secure than a rooted android device with droidwall and XPrivacy | 13:14 |
| Pawky | Armadillo: well, you could sell the app... | 13:15 |
| Armadillo | oh cmon | 13:15 |
| Armadillo | they are working on ecurity issues | 13:15 |
| Armadillo | rome wasn't built in one day, thanks | 13:15 |
| Pawky | still? | 13:15 |
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| Pawky | The very reason I sponsor Jolla, and sailfish is to give the control back to the user (or keep it there), which is one of Jollas great advantages should any programmer use it. | 13:16 |
| pp_ | fingerterm is great! | 13:16 |
| SK_work | pp_: finger term is not great | 13:17 |
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| SK_work | not as great as the (now defunt) meegotouch terminal | 13:17 |
| FireFly | Fingerterm is decent | 13:17 |
| SK_work | decent is the word | 13:17 |
| FireFly | tohkbd solves the input problem as far as I'm concerned, at least | 13:18 |
| SK_work | I hope | 13:18 |
| FireFly | That just leaves emulation and OS integration (clipboard) | 13:18 |
| Armadillo | what's so bad about fingerterm? | 13:18 |
| SK_work | Armadillo: the kbd | 13:18 |
| Armadillo | for me the software keyboard is better than the sailfish native one | 13:18 |
| FireFly | The lack of good terminal emulation | 13:18 |
| Armadillo | in terms of fast key access | 13:19 |
| FireFly | I think the fingerterm keyboard is all right | 13:19 |
| FireFly | Still, for a terminal emulator physical keys will probably always be superior | 13:19 |
| Armadillo | that's my reason for tohkbd :D | 13:20 |
| FireFly | My biggest gripe is probably with the terminal emulation tbh | 13:20 |
| FireFly | I've been meaning to do something about that.. | 13:20 |
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| Armadillo | what I really don't like are the settings | 13:21 |
| Armadillo | but it has to be ported to a real sailfish app before this can be converted to Silica style I think? | 13:21 |
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| Armadillo | currently also the Sailfish version is based on the odl meego components right? | 13:22 |
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| Armadillo | old | 13:22 |
| ggabriel | jolla will need another perk if they want to reach 1.5m, unless they're expecting people to buy the micro distributor kit | 13:25 |
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| FireFly | Armadillo: there's a silica branch in the nemomobile/fingerterm repo if you're curious | 13:26 |
| Armadillo | I already gave it a short view | 13:27 |
| Armadillo | also forked it | 13:27 |
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| Armadillo | but I won't have the time and skills to work too much on it | 13:27 |
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| SpeedEvil | Lolz. 'We are planning to discontinue the Nokia Sync service on 5 December 2014. After 5 December 2014, you will not be able to access your data through the Nokia Sync service. We strongly encourage you to export and/or migrate your data from the service before this date. ' | 13:38 |
| SpeedEvil | Actually - checking it - somewhat not lolz - in principle it's available on the n9 which some here may ahve | 13:39 |
| SpeedEvil | err - some here may be using it on | 13:39 |
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| nazanin | Armadillo: ping | 14:03 |
| Armadillo | nazanin pong | 14:03 |
| Armadillo | don't tell me you found another bug :D | 14:03 |
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| Armadillo | I don#t want to know it ;D | 14:04 |
| nazanin | Armadillo: :D | 14:04 |
| nazanin | well, then, mmm :D | 14:04 |
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| nazanin | Armadillo: it's a minor bug, not a rejection reason, you wanna know it now? :P | 14:04 |
| Armadillo | nazanin sure ;) | 14:04 |
| nazanin | Armadillo: if the name of the task is a bit long, the text will overlap with the other task below it | 14:05 |
| nazanin | and things get mixed up | 14:05 |
| Armadillo | yes this is a known bug since the first ever release :D | 14:05 |
| nazanin | Armadillo: ah, ok, so I didn't suprise you, not good :D | 14:05 |
| Armadillo | I have an issue to resolve and I'm to lazy to code own implementation of TextSwitch :D | 14:06 |
| Armadillo | developers hate surprises :D | 14:06 |
| nazanin | and I like to surprise them ^_^ | 14:06 |
| Armadillo | anyway you're doing a great job, thanks ;) | 14:06 |
| nazanin | Armadillo: no problem :) it's not a big issue, good to have it on your to-do list to fix, though ;) | 14:07 |
| ln- | hey can i report an issue that may affect several apps, and apparently is not caught in QA? (it's nothing dangerous though) | 14:07 |
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| pp_ | security@ ? | 14:08 |
| ln- | more like cosmetic@ | 14:09 |
| Armadillo | ^^ | 14:09 |
| ln- | the SDK template for a new app adds a german localization, and if the author doesn't either remove it or actually localize into german, the .desktop file ends up having a line like "Name[de]=harbour-myapp" | 14:09 |
| ln- | so for anyone using their Jolla in german, the app name will be "harbour-myapp", not "My App" or whatever the author actually has intended. | 14:10 |
| Armadillo | o | 14:10 |
| Armadillo | Oo | 14:10 |
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| ln- | the new Sail Raid game is an example of such. | 14:12 |
| nazanin | ln-: thanks for reporting, I will check it with Sail Raid :) | 14:12 |
| Armadillo | confirmed with Sail Raid | 14:13 |
| Yaniel | ln-: also of how important multitouch can be | 14:13 |
| SK_work | nazanin: A QA engineers enters in a bar, orders 9999999 beers, orders -1 beers, orders a "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" etc | 14:13 |
| Yaniel | because it doesn't work there | 14:13 |
| nazanin | SK_work: oooooold :D | 14:13 |
| SK_work | ^ testing Armadillo's app | 14:13 |
| nazanin | =^_^= | 14:13 |
| Armadillo | :P | 14:13 |
| SK_work | oh look, a text field | 14:14 |
| SK_work | let's try DROP TABLE notes | 14:14 |
| Armadillo | you should try tasks instead :P | 14:14 |
| SK_work | :D | 14:15 |
| meklu | SK_work: "I'll have NaN NULLs" | 14:17 |
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| Yaniel | SK_work: really? | 14:18 |
| Armadillo | my caldav account is going crazy | 14:18 |
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| Armadillo | I have hundreds of calendars in the calendar app :D | 14:18 |
| Yaniel | :D | 14:19 |
| SK_work | meklu: I prefer (INT_MAX +1) <unprintable characters> | 14:20 |
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| pawky|2 | Jolla gave us phone owners a voutcher to be able to buy a phone at a heavy discount a short time ago. "Cool" I thought, "now I might be able to let a few of my friends go and buy one", then I started to think about how I was to convince them to give up their Android and iPhones and buy a Jolla instead. Lo and behold, I have actually come up with no argument what so ever why they should switch. | 14:36 |
| pawky|2 | Lets try a few, " There are great many Jolla apps to use", nope | 14:36 |
| pawky|2 | "jolla is a more stable platform with security and integrity in mind", nope | 14:36 |
| Bysmyyr_ | UI is best in the market | 14:36 |
| pawky|2 | "UI is the best on the market, but you will mostly use Android apps", nope | 14:37 |
| FireFly | One of my android-using friends tends to complain about Android's resource requirements | 14:37 |
| FireFly | wrt. RAM and such | 14:37 |
| pawky|2 | Can anyone come up with any argument why users of other phones should switch to Jolla? | 14:37 |
| pawky|2 | FireFly: Im listening :-) | 14:37 |
| Nav | Because its not ios or android. | 14:38 |
| Nav | Good enough for me :-) | 14:38 |
| pawky|2 | "it's neither Andoid nor iPhone, and no apps to come with it", nope | 14:38 |
| FireFly | I imagine Sailfish is far less resource-hungry--at least I haven't had any issues with the resonsiveness and the Jolla has comparatively weak specs (and is appropriately cheaper than the latest Andorid devices) | 14:38 |
| FireFly | Android* | 14:38 |
| Armadillo | better UI, better battery life, great community, hardware keyboard, exchangeable backplates, exchangable battery (although not available official :x) | 14:39 |
| Bysmyyr_ | pawky|2: what android apps, I use 1 | 14:39 |
| Behold | depends on what kind of user you are; as a programmer and Linux power user there's imo really no good alternative to Sailfish available on the market | 14:39 |
| FireFly | Oh yeah, battery life is a good point too | 14:39 |
| Nav | pawky|2: dealing with apple or google is a deal breaker - I don't trust either of em | 14:39 |
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| pawky|2 | FireFly: until using any app, and GPS that is... | 14:40 |
| Behold | unlike Android, with Sailfish you actually get a real, full-fledged Linux distribution | 14:40 |
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| Armadillo | you can update without those rom shit | 14:40 |
| pawky|2 | So, only hackers like us who might spend more time on the CLI will use this phone? | 14:40 |
| FireFly | There's also something to be said about "actual multitasking" vs. "application may or may not be using resources" | 14:40 |
| pawky|2 | FireFly: How many times do you truly multitask with your phone? | 14:41 |
| FireFly | Admittedly not as much as I did with the N900 | 14:41 |
| pawky|2 | without seeing your battery vanish like beer in a beer tap | 14:41 |
| FireFly | Huh? | 14:41 |
| Teemu | when I'm having a phone call I really really really wish the navigator app would damn keep working | 14:41 |
| FireFly | Well, I usually use at least IRC+browser and perhaps music player in parallel | 14:41 |
| pawky|2 | So, in the end we have a great product but no argument what so ever why the masses should start using Jolla phones and tablets? | 14:42 |
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| Armadillo | please can you sell your phone and never join this channel again? | 14:42 |
| Armadillo | that would be really great :) | 14:43 |
| pawky|2 | I believe there is a market for the masses, if Jolla will turn into a more secure integrity friendly phone for the masses. | 14:43 |
| sharpneli | pawky|2: All of this grows the app ecosystem slowly. So in the future it might become a viable alternative for masses. | 14:43 |
| flux | personally I think Jolla GUI is a lot less annoying than both Android and iPhone | 14:43 |
| Yaniel | pawky|2: wow, can I add that to my collection of null statements? | 14:43 |
| pawky|2 | Armadillo: It seems far more easy to give you a blindfold for the obvious... no wait you are already wearing it... | 14:43 |
| flux | but I don't really think there is any other reason for masses. it's not the best platform for running Android apps, while that's what people will want to do. | 14:43 |
| pdanek | Hey all, does anyone here use Tutanota webmail? | 14:44 |
| Armadillo | pawky|2 sorry, no blindfold, just checked this :) | 14:45 |
| pawky|2 | Armadillo: blindfold, for the blatantly obvious... | 14:45 |
| pawky|2 | I believe to make Jolla something to last, these are the very issues we all have to think about. | 14:46 |
| Armadillo | I'm really wondering why the hell you are using this OS | 14:46 |
| Yaniel | dude, you really should try politics | 14:46 |
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| Armadillo | haha +1 | 14:46 |
| pawky|2 | Even though the user base is strong, I doubt it is big enough for a long lasting future. | 14:47 |
| Armadillo | really? | 14:47 |
| Armadillo | thanks for this information, never recognized this | 14:47 |
| pawky|2 | I believe we all users, programmers inventors, sales people have to rethink about where the future is, to make it a long lasting success | 14:48 |
| pawky|2 | That's why I am asking the community this simple question, what arguments is one to use to make people buy a Jolla to use instead of Android/iPhone. | 14:49 |
| pawky|2 | We do have an opportunity to differentiate if we start focusing on parts the other do not have, such total control over your phone, security, integrity etc.. | 14:50 |
| Armadillo | instead of complaining whole the time you could listen to the answers we gave above | 14:50 |
| pawky|2 | Today though this is still unexploited territory | 14:50 |
| Armadillo | but I'm expecting too much | 14:50 |
| r0kk3rz | parts of the world are starting to wake up to the whole surveillance thing | 14:51 |
| pawky|2 | Armadillo: Which aswers? the ha ha? the sell your phone? the why are you using the os? | 14:51 |
| r0kk3rz | having a non-american open source product is a good answer to that | 14:51 |
| Armadillo | I won't quote myself | 14:51 |
| pawky|2 | r0kk3rz: it surely is, but are we exploiting this opportunity today, giving the user the possibility to benefit from it? | 14:52 |
| r0kk3rz | today its a work in progress, not really suitable for mass consumption | 14:52 |
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| r0kk3rz | the people in Tasmania that I showed the Jolla to were very receptive though | 14:52 |
| r0kk3rz | but some were like "what do you mean its not android??" | 14:53 |
| pawky|2 | r0kk3rz: yes, people ususally are, but there is no true sales pitch yet, and this is Jollas akilles heal.. | 14:53 |
| r0kk3rz | *Achilles heel | 14:54 |
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| Yaniel | if there was, it would introduce an infinite amount of nitpicking | 14:54 |
| pawky|2 | yes, you have the possibility to control the things behind Android, but not as a user. Thus in the end rooting an android putting some security software on it will far outweight the Jolla devices | 14:54 |
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| r0kk3rz | my pirate party tinfoil hat wearing friend very much likes the idea of a non-google operating system | 14:55 |
| pawky|2 | r0kk3rz: (yeah i felt the spellling was a bit off ;-) ) | 14:55 |
| r0kk3rz | considering he has all but removed google anything from his life | 14:55 |
| r0kk3rz | cept for running cyanogenmod | 14:55 |
| pawky|2 | Yaniel: So, if you have a sales team ready to sell the Jolla products, what would you give them for sale pitch suggestions? | 14:56 |
| r0kk3rz | one really liked the UI, once he got his head around it | 14:56 |
| pawky|2 | Yes, the UI is cool, but how many apps are you actually using on the phone that truly benefits from it? | 14:57 |
| r0kk3rz | my main pitch to people like me is the interaction with the company you get | 14:57 |
| Bysmyyr_ | pawky|2: almost all what I use | 14:57 |
| r0kk3rz | if i have an issue, i can come in here and talk directly to jolla engineers | 14:57 |
| r0kk3rz | phones are very personal devices these days, having such a personal interaction with the company that makes it is pretty cool | 14:58 |
| pawky|2 | r0kk3rz: That is one of my pitches, but I can only tell them to people who are already hackers, not others who use their phones in their business etc. | 14:58 |
| pawky|2 | What I mean is that Jolla and their products are still lacking something that puts them into a market niche, aside from the other OSes. | 14:58 |
| pawky|2 | But there is one out there, and that's security and integrity. | 14:59 |
| pawky|2 | control of your OS Apps and Data | 14:59 |
| ggabriel | that's ok, leave the "normal" users away for now with their cool ios/android devices | 14:59 |
| ggabriel | and let us have good things | 15:00 |
| r0kk3rz | i wouldnt even try and pitch to non-hacker friends yet | 15:00 |
| r0kk3rz | things are still too rough | 15:00 |
| ggabriel | we already have requests in tjc of "make this app work with aliendalvik" that outweight copy+paste etc | 15:00 |
| r0kk3rz | and likely to burn uses forever from a bad experience | 15:00 |
| r0kk3rz | *users | 15:00 |
| pawky|2 | But how long can Jolla last, if not also getting a bigger market share? | 15:01 |
| pawky|2 | We all benefit from more people using this platform | 15:01 |
| ggabriel | they're doing alright now | 15:01 |
| pawky|2 | thus we need the very arguments to pitch this product to the broad audience. | 15:01 |
| ggabriel | i don't benefit if most users want a feature that's unimportant to me | 15:01 |
| r0kk3rz | pawky|2: jolla is a small company, they dont need billions of users | 15:01 |
| gogeta | at this point artemma is right | 15:02 |
| gogeta | enabled payed apps | 15:02 |
| r0kk3rz | Linux as an OS has survived for some time now, I dont see why Jolla cant even with a niche product | 15:02 |
| ggabriel | we don't need to open the floodgates for paid applications tho | 15:02 |
| gogeta | mobile is a bit differnt thing | 15:02 |
| pawky|2 | r0kk3rz: But it did so because it had a niche in the market. | 15:02 |
| gogeta | dev need money | 15:02 |
| * ggabriel is quite comfortable with explaining to his friends that his jolla is much better than their ios/android but they can't have it :P | 15:03 | |
| gogeta | and apple and google give those to them | 15:03 |
| gogeta | m$ literally pay devs | 15:03 |
| gogeta | for have apps | 15:03 |
| r0kk3rz | Jolla just got a cash injection from the whole tablet thing, and who knows they might do the same again for the next jolla phone | 15:03 |
| r0kk3rz | payed apps is in the works afaik | 15:04 |
| pawky|2 | r0kk3rz: yes, I bought one as well, but this also got me thinking... | 15:04 |
| r0kk3rz | when that will surface is anyones guess | 15:05 |
| Acce | There are great many things that need to be done | 15:05 |
| pawky|2 | paid apps, and good apps in general. | 15:05 |
| flux | well, apparently jolla has quite many people in the payroll, so it cannot maintain a small niche for indefinitely.. | 15:05 |
| Acce | and honestly, I recommended for example my dad to buy an android phone instead of a Jolla | 15:05 |
| pawky|2 | but the niche to take is security, and integrity. Thats where we should be. | 15:05 |
| pawky|2 | flux: precisely my point | 15:05 |
| Acce | I'm patiently waiting for Jolla to deliver though | 15:06 |
| pawky|2 | thats why i am putting these thoughts forward | 15:06 |
| Acce | They're obviously not stupid or blind, they know there are flaws | 15:06 |
| Acce | that's why they're working their asses off on this | 15:06 |
| r0kk3rz | flux: they certainly dont have apple or samsung or google levels of people yet | 15:06 |
| r0kk3rz | so their need for cashflow is a lot less | 15:06 |
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| flux | r0kk3rz, no, but let's say they have 100 people, which might be close to truth. that might take 10 million a year. let's be generous and say 5 million. | 15:07 |
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| flux | so the tablet project is at around 1 million now.. but it's not 1 million profit. | 15:08 |
| r0kk3rz | no, but for small company with a big vision, profit is secondary | 15:08 |
| Acce | yeah, it's not profit.. it's supportive funding | 15:08 |
| r0kk3rz | remaining cash positive is the main goal at this point I would imagine | 15:08 |
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| Acce | not even enough to keep them going, just nice little extra to be able to push out the second product | 15:08 |
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| Yaniel | some pocket money to spend on something interesting | 15:13 |
| r0kk3rz | the crowdfunding method seems to be working out for them | 15:14 |
| Yaniel | yep | 15:14 |
| r0kk3rz | and keeps them away from vulture capitalism | 15:14 |
| Acce | it's good marketing + good way to keep people involved | 15:14 |
| r0kk3rz | its also a pretty cool way for small companies to do big things | 15:15 |
| SK_work | even if selling n 10^3 tablets is not a big thing | 15:16 |
| r0kk3rz | although risky when you consider all the ill conceived products that have failed on kickstarter | 15:16 |
| SK_work | xiaomi sells maybe 100 times more | 15:16 |
| Acce | and also I don't give much a damn what other people use (regarding the discussion above), I like Sailfish, I love it maybe. But I am sometimes worried about the fact that if the things that probably make less patient people go nuts are not fixed "soon" enough, what will come of Jolla.. | 15:16 |
| r0kk3rz | the low volume makes it more costly, not less | 15:16 |
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| Acce | I can wait, and so can many others, but most people probably won't wait | 15:17 |
| r0kk3rz | xiaomi also probably has the backing of the PRC government | 15:18 |
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| r0kk3rz | not to mention first priority access to the chinese market | 15:19 |
| Acce | yeah | 15:19 |
| Acce | China will be interesting | 15:19 |
| Acce | and already is | 15:19 |
| Acce | because they definitely don't like Google / Apple / MS and are constantly developing Linux based solutions, Sailfish has nice potential there | 15:20 |
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| r0kk3rz | dont they already have their own fork of android? | 15:21 |
| r0kk3rz | surely they must... | 15:21 |
| Acce | well, it's popular to have some tech shops to install Cyanogen / other custom ROMs on your android hardware, I have heard | 15:22 |
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| SK_work | miui is a fork of aosp | 15:23 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah i thought so | 15:23 |
| SK_work | does anyone here knows about security on linux ? | 15:23 |
| SK_work | has been reading stuff on polkit, selinux, apparmor and smack | 15:24 |
| tbr | "don't IRC as root", does that count? | 15:24 |
| tbr | (your question is extremely broad) | 15:24 |
| SK_work | does it work applied to the Jolla. Especially, does the Jolla kernel enables this stuff | 15:24 |
| SK_work | tbr: yes, but I wanted to make it more precise | 15:24 |
| SK_work | it is in context of the Jolla, and for accessing resources like contacts etc. | 15:24 |
| Yaniel | or do anything else as root for that matter | 15:24 |
| SK_work | so private life security | 15:25 |
| Yaniel | basically app access to things? | 15:25 |
| Acce | Yaniel: Thou shall not fear becoming root | 15:25 |
| tbr | SK_work: there are many concepts how to limit application access | 15:25 |
| Yaniel | I don't | 15:25 |
| r0kk3rz | atm its fairly abysmal | 15:25 |
| Acce | yeah it's joke, man | 15:26 |
| SK_work | r0kk3rz: basically, atm, you write a root daemon, you can send phone data to chine without user's consent | 15:26 |
| Yaniel | but most of the time when people do things as root it is because they have no clue what they are doing | 15:26 |
| SK_work | tbr: I read the Tizen slides about Smack again | 15:26 |
| tbr | currently the main security barrier is the superficial jolla store review | 15:26 |
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| SK_work | tbr: do you know much about smack (for example) ? | 15:26 |
| r0kk3rz | SK_work: i was more thinking of the 'everything runs as nemo' thing | 15:27 |
| tbr | SK_work: no, a former colleague maintains it though | 15:27 |
| SK_work | r0kk3rz: there are privileged stuff nevertheless | 15:27 |
| SK_work | of course you can add yourself in the privliged via a RPM postin script | 15:27 |
| SK_work | tbr: hum ok | 15:27 |
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| r0kk3rz | wasnt long ago that the random security audit thing was released, so at least Jolla has a good list of what to fix | 15:29 |
| tbr | SK_work: the problem I see is, that introducing a security paradigm needs to be done on a holistic scale to have a chance of working. On the other hand if it gets in the way of the developer or even worse the user it will fail really hard. | 15:29 |
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| tbr | r0kk3rz: "random security audit"? | 15:29 |
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| r0kk3rz | some white paper that was released, i forget the name of the dudes who did it | 15:30 |
| tbr | on sailfish or generic? | 15:30 |
| r0kk3rz | on jolla/sailfish | 15:30 |
| tbr | k | 15:30 |
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| SK_work | I have seen the slides only recently | 15:31 |
| r0kk3rz | i'll see if I can find it | 15:31 |
| SK_work | tbr: yeah, I know | 15:31 |
| SK_work | could be nice to have something that works out of the box, and requires nothing from dev / user | 15:31 |
| SK_work | (well, maybe some dialogs for the user) | 15:31 |
| SK_work | but no manifests or crappy stuff like these | 15:31 |
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| javispedro | security framework.... *shudders* | 15:45 |
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| SK_work | javispedro: what's the problem | 15:51 |
| javispedro | for me at least the main benefit of sailfish, etc. is that I can prototype programs in Gentoo and then cross-compile right away to Jolla without much complication, and the libraries and APIs I can use don't actually change much. | 15:52 |
| javispedro | s/Gentoo/$DESKTOP_GNU_DISTRO | 15:53 |
| javispedro | 'security frameworks' _tend_ (it's not a given) to go against that | 15:53 |
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| SK_work | javispedro: hum | 15:58 |
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| attah | Why is it not possible to unmark answers as correct on TJC? (but you can mark answers as correct on other people's questions) | 17:43 |
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| M4rtinK | Jolla Tablet on Phoronix: | 18:53 |
| M4rtinK | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg1MDA | 18:53 |
| Stskeeps | comment section should be a blast | 18:54 |
| M4rtinK | nothing less should be expected from Phoronix :) | 18:56 |
| M4rtinK | BTW, looks like there already was even a Slashdot story: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/19/1343250/jolla-crowdfunds-its-first-tablet | 18:56 |
| M4rtinK | mush have missed it | 18:56 |
| Stskeeps | yeah came first day i think | 18:57 |
| * Stskeeps builds another tablet image | 18:58 | |
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| r0kk3rz | ah, f2fs doesnt even have a stable release yet | 19:05 |
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| M4rtinK | r0kk3rz: I don't really see a need for it to be honest | 19:10 |
| M4rtinK | EXT3/4, btrfs or (my favorite) XFS should be just fine :) | 19:10 |
| Stskeeps | you may not but a regular consumer might. i'd personally use ext4 but i rarely take out my microsd in first place | 19:11 |
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| M4rtinK | I'm quite convinced even regular users don't swap their micro SD cards very often | 19:15 |
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| Stskeeps | that said, i could be interested in a survey about who contributed to tablet | 19:16 |
| Stskeeps | ie, types of people, technical, regular user, open source fanatic.. | 19:16 |
| M4rtinK | just considering the tiny size of the card and usually awkward exchange method (remove cover, remove batter, etc.) | 19:16 |
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| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: yeah, that would be interesting | 19:17 |
| M4rtinK | especially considering the expectation of these groups | 19:18 |
| Stskeeps | the marketing reached out in a lot of very different places, so | 19:18 |
| M4rtinK | I'm inclined to think most backers are at least a bit technically inclined | 19:18 |
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| M4rtinK | just due to the simple need to pay over the Internet :) | 19:18 |
| Stskeeps | yeah but at same time, ubuntu edge, 37m .. that can't be all well, open source people | 19:19 |
| Stskeeps | er, 12m it was wasnt it | 19:19 |
| M4rtinK | well, it was a total vapor ware "do everything" device | 19:19 |
| Stskeeps | M4rtinK: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-dragonfly-futurefon--3 | 19:20 |
| M4rtinK | someone linked to that already | 19:20 |
| Stskeeps | our seems like the job of angels compared | 19:21 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:21 |
| M4rtinK | I had to check it is really indiegogo, not a scam site :) | 19:21 |
| M4rtinK | BTW, I still think that Ubuntu attempt was a classical "fuck you price" thing | 19:23 |
| Stskeeps | mm? | 19:24 |
| M4rtinK | eq. you don't really want to do something but participate in the contest for the contract anyway | 19:24 |
| Stskeeps | ah | 19:24 |
| M4rtinK | IIRC there was a case when Cisco bid about 3x times as much as the highest other bid | 19:24 |
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| Stskeeps | ooi is there any uefi bootable usb sticks of fedora? | 19:25 |
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| M4rtinK | should be, let me check | 19:25 |
| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: this should get you one: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_and_use_Live_USB#UEFI_boot_of_USB_sticks | 19:26 |
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| M4rtinK | And for convenience, Fedora 20 (current stable): http://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/20/Live/x86_64/Fedora-Live-Desktop-x86_64-20-1.iso | 19:34 |
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| M4rtinK | and Fedora 21 (currently at RC stage, hopefully final in a few days): http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/21_RC1/Workstation/x86_64/iso/Fedora-Live-Workstation-x86_64-21-1.iso | 19:36 |
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| r0kk3rz | M4rtinK: i see the point of it, i just keep seeing comments that jolla should support f2fs rather than paying for exfat | 19:39 |
| r0kk3rz | but without at least a stable release, that is a non starter for a consumer device | 19:39 |
| sharpneli | The reason why exfat support is good: Try and use f2fs on other devices | 19:40 |
| r0kk3rz | its a moot point anyway | 19:40 |
| sharpneli | Sure it's piece of crap technically and requires money because of the shittiest company in history. But it's what others support. | 19:40 |
| sharpneli | And the ability to transfer sdcards is quite useful | 19:41 |
| r0kk3rz | consumers dont want to have to reformat their SD cards from stock | 19:41 |
| sharpneli | That too. | 19:41 |
| r0kk3rz | so you need to support whatever the standard FS is | 19:41 |
| r0kk3rz | which atm is a patent encumbered pos | 19:41 |
| sharpneli | Yap. It's just MS using it's desktop monopoly to grab payments from others. | 19:42 |
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| sharpneli | But complaints won't help change the situation | 19:42 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah, jolla is a company, not a political movement | 19:43 |
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| r0kk3rz | if you want to get political, support the FSF | 19:43 |
| sharpneli | And tbh the political solution for this would be "You cannot demand patent payments for products who's prime purpose is interoperability" | 19:44 |
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| r0kk3rz | i would word it differently, but something like that anyway | 19:47 |
| M4rtinK | but Jolla is #unlike! :) | 19:47 |
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| r0kk3rz | also, wtf on that dragonfly thing | 19:49 |
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| r0kk3rz | i dont even | 19:49 |
| M4rtinK | check the certificate chain, just to be sure :) | 19:50 |
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| Mirv | there was an interesting comment suggesting use of ntfs instead of exfat... | 20:18 |
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| Mirv | I guess with the idea that it's not as clearly patent-minefielded (?), but still supported by everything | 20:19 |
| Mirv | well I guess the everything is limited to computers, I doubt other phones support it | 20:20 |
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| Tofe | Do people really take in and out their sdcard in their phones or tablets ? | 20:23 |
| M4rtinK | the world wonders :) | 20:24 |
| * inte_ never | 20:24 | |
| Mirv | I doubt that, and if they do it's possibly for copying backups. ntfs would work. but that'd still leave the unfortunate minority that would want to eg swap media content from tablet to some android device (unless of course android devices _do_ come with ntfs enabled) | 20:25 |
| Mirv | well, no matter what, exfat is an unfortunate piece of s..oftware | 20:26 |
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| SpeedEvil | It's a damn shame SDs don't support 'dumb' mode. | 20:52 |
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| SpeedEvil | 'I have this many eraseblocks' 'they are this size' you can do these operations on them, and I flag errors like this | 20:53 |
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| mornfall | Tofe: for usb mass storage, the computer needs to understand the filesystem too | 20:54 |
| SpeedEvil | The _only_ specified format for sdxc is vfat | 20:55 |
| SpeedEvil | in the spec | 20:55 |
| SpeedEvil | If you format it another way, it is not an SDXC card | 20:55 |
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| mornfall | Tofe: (which is why you can't access data on jolla's internal memory as mass storage :) | 20:56 |
| mornfall | Tofe: (it is the same btrfs as the system) | 20:56 |
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| Nightmare__ | http://www.linshof.com/phone.html | 20:58 |
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| M4rtinK | SpeedEvil: I propose a free high capacity SD card format using EXT4 called Freedom Stick ! :) | 21:00 |
| M4rtinK | and one using XFS called Enterprise Freedom Stick :) | 21:01 |
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| SpeedEvil | M4rtinK: yeah - but it doesn't work unless you have the SD actually support it. | 21:03 |
| SpeedEvil | At least - not optimally | 21:03 |
| swift1102 | hello all | 21:04 |
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| vixxo | hi guys, I'm quite confused about sailfishOS: Jolla and articles I've read talks about opensource License, but as I can see Jolla UI is proprietary software. Am I correct ? | 21:46 |
| Yaniel | yes, at least parts of the UI are closed for now | 21:48 |
| Yaniel | specifically the Silica libs | 21:48 |
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| vixxo | is there any chance they will become opensource ? | 21:49 |
| Yaniel | jolla have said that they aim to do that | 21:51 |
| Yaniel | presumably once the OS gains some serious traction and is licensed to larger vendors | 21:52 |
| vixxo | so they are using that license only as "a start policy" to obtain parternships with bit hardware corps instead of let them just use their product | 21:53 |
| Stskeeps | not to mention a very large portion of the stack is open sourced.. | 21:55 |
| Yaniel | I think they are going for something like redhat in the end | 21:55 |
| Yaniel | jolla providing (paid) support for essentially an open system | 21:55 |
| Yaniel | but of course they need to get it going first | 21:55 |
| Stskeeps | http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/13/please-dont-tell-me-you-want-to-be-the-next-red-hat/ | 21:56 |
| vixxo | thank you guys for your exhaustive informations :D | 21:58 |
| Yaniel | well, it has been a while since I heard of redhat | 21:59 |
| Yaniel | but I liked their concept and this article seems like a reasonable continuation of that | 21:59 |
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| sharpneli | Stskeeps, the next dark overlord! | 22:04 |
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| Stskeeps | i do like pulling the strings.. | 22:05 |
| leinir | Pull de string! http://youtu.be/mnaa1PNW6Ns?t=7m55s | 22:09 |
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| M4rtinK | Red Hat is cool ;-) | 22:52 |
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| RavenholmDX | Finally commited my first Sailfish app to source control | 22:55 |
| RavenholmDX | (not public yet though) | 22:56 |
| M4rtinK | boo :) | 22:56 |
| M4rtinK | (but if it just due to development phase code, then it is of course fine :) ) | 22:57 |
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| M4rtinK | and good luck in your coding endeavors :) | 22:59 |
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| dunp | https://learn.adafruit.com/16-channel-pwm-servo-driver walking TOH just idea | 23:07 |
| chem|st | dunp: how about a flying toh? I2C to brushless ESC... | 23:10 |
| dunp | :) | 23:12 |
| dunp | UFOTOH | 23:12 |
| ShadowJK | crashes just became much more expensive | 23:13 |
| dunp | ufo crashes is allways expensive :) | 23:13 |
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| RavenholmDX | M4rtinK, still waiting on my Jolla to arrive | 23:18 |
| RavenholmDX | want to test it on actual hardware before I make the repo public | 23:18 |
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| salyavin | I guess if Sailfish opened silica they could try only giving binaries to paid people like Red Hat above but you'd end up with SailCentOS. | 23:52 |
| salyavin | I very much want them to be completly open just not sure how to make money. No partners so far so they could keep selling the hardware. | 23:54 |
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