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| coderus | Just created indiegogo campaign to support myself as developer. Contribute if you're interested in me! http://igg.me/at/coderus | 00:46 |
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| kimmoli | supported | 00:55 |
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| swift110_ | hello all | 01:10 |
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| swift110_ | all these people and its this quiet | 01:48 |
| Ezko | most are from europe probably | 01:48 |
| swift110_ | oh | 01:50 |
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| tadzik | (yes) | 01:53 |
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| pahartik | swift1102: What happened to your network uplink? | 02:13 |
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| swift1102 | dont knpw | 02:26 |
| swift1102 | anyway im here | 02:26 |
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| swift1102 | i wanted to download jolla os and play with it in virtualbox | 02:31 |
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| Teemu | are there any sleep monitoring applications for jolla? | 08:45 |
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| Teemu | also, how are third and fourteenth party applications installed? via cli yum? | 08:45 |
| tango_ | sleep monitoring applications? | 08:46 |
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| coderus | tango_: i saw some app in harbour or openrepos | 08:48 |
| coderus | shouwing screen activity in percentage | 08:48 |
| coderus | Teemu: ^ | 08:48 |
| Teemu | apps that monitor sleep cycles and wake you up during the prespecified waking up window whenever the sleep cycle is at a suitable phase | 08:49 |
| coderus | and dont understand question anout applications | 08:49 |
| Teemu | different sleep, i'm talking about human sleep here :) | 08:49 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | Teemu: qThread::sleep(10); | 08:50 |
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| tango_ | Sfiet_Konstantin: lol | 08:51 |
| tango_ | well how would the phone know your sleep cycle? | 08:52 |
| Teemu | coderus: let me rephrase the app question: how to install stuff that is not in jolla store? mostly from sources | 08:52 |
| tango_ | record the breathing? | 08:52 |
| Teemu | i had something for the n900 that monitored my sleep and then woke me up nicely | 08:52 |
| Teemu | cannot remember the app name | 08:52 |
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| Teemu | well that was hard to find: http://www.ruinelli.ch/maemo/sleepanalyser | 08:53 |
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| japa-fi | Teemu: You used to have N900 and now with Jolla? How long have you had Jolla? | 09:02 |
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| coderus | Teemu: many ways | 09:03 |
| coderus | 1. click on rpm in filemanager | 09:03 |
| coderus | 2. click on rpm in transfers page | 09:03 |
| coderus | 3. using pkcon in console | 09:03 |
| coderus | 4. install and use zypper in console | 09:03 |
| Teemu | japa-fi: my mother in law bought jolla from the first run and now i bought mine just a week or so before slush | 09:04 |
| Teemu | i was late in this mostly due to not having too much money hanging around for secondary spending purposes | 09:05 |
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| japa-fi | Teemu, I'm seriously considering getting jolla while they are on discount (250€). I have N900 too. Have you come across any major shortcomings with jolla (aside the lack of keyboard) | 09:05 |
| Yaniel | I've been using it as my main for almost a year now ^^ | 09:06 |
| Teemu | mostly when using it it brings me happy memories from how the n900 worked (its musb broke down so its been sitting unused for a while) | 09:06 |
| Stskeeps | did you know our chief designer was behind n900 ui too? | 09:06 |
| Yaniel | the battery issue was a bit annoying until I did the paper trick | 09:07 |
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| Yaniel | and tracker still hasn't brought my cover.jpgs back to media player | 09:07 |
| Teemu | i've been getting free little-used android phones from said mother in law as temporary solutions and they've been driving me crazy | 09:07 |
| Teemu | Stskeeps: didn't, but it's not surprising given the similarities and jolla history | 09:08 |
| Teemu | now do all of you drive saabs or is it just your sysadmin dude? | 09:08 |
| japa-fi | Yaniel, battery issue? | 09:11 |
| Yaniel | random reboots | 09:11 |
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| Yaniel | apparently caused by the battery contacts being inset too much | 09:11 |
| japa-fi | Ref: cover.jpg - do you have them embedded in the .mp3 files or separate cover.jpg with the .mp3? | 09:11 |
| Yaniel | separate files | 09:12 |
| Yaniel | one for each folder | 09:12 |
| japa-fi | Yaniel, by any chance, you don't happen to have sonos ? | 09:14 |
| Yaniel | what? | 09:14 |
| Tegu | I had random reboot issues a few updates back but fortunately now there have been none. And I haven't had to do thd paper trick unlike many others. weird | 09:14 |
| Yaniel | I did the paper trick and since it has been quite stable | 09:15 |
| Yaniel | had to cut a bit off the TOH when I got a flipcase | 09:15 |
| japa-fi | Yaniel, never mind. It's a home media system/player. It also takes cover art from cover.jpg or folder.jpg. | 09:15 |
| Yaniel | ah, no I don't | 09:15 |
| Yaniel | because the TOH would get pressed against the power button way too tightly | 09:15 |
| japa-fi | One of the reasons I have virtual windows image on my computer, because the controller application is only for android, ios, windows, mac. | 09:16 |
| Yaniel | resulting again in random shutdowns | 09:16 |
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| Yaniel | cover.jpg/folder.jpg/*png is quite standard afaik | 09:21 |
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| entil | ermagerd! qt-project.org is down? | 09:28 |
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| entil | yay, came back up | 09:28 |
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| entil | there has to be a name for this law... wait forever before saying that on irc, and it comes back up immediately | 09:29 |
| Teemu | it's related to rule 34 | 09:30 |
| ggabriel | i'm sure it's one of the corollaries of murphy's law | 09:30 |
| entil | but I got to say that now that I started doing qt5 without the IDE I have a lot more respect for the build system and all | 09:31 |
| entil | I figured if I get at least some similitude of a textsecure client (library) out there, it might get traction | 09:31 |
| entil | so there needs to be a CLI "app" for testing it, and a dummy http server (in python) for the same reason, just to figure out how things like QUrl work | 09:32 |
| Teemu | ref me a bit on how the build system works? is it using bog standard make or some javaxmlstuff or yet another completely new build system you have to learn from ground up? | 09:32 |
| entil | no, it's the kind of stuff you'd hate at first :P there's a .pro file whose syntax looks like you're building on top of unknown assumptions, like QT -= gui | 09:33 |
| entil | and CONFIG += console | 09:33 |
| Teemu | i run into ant when playing around with the arduino ide modifications and have to say: it's not helping | 09:33 |
| entil | and then something called qmake will construct a Makefile for it | 09:33 |
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| entil | it also introspects some code, like, you inherit a class from QObject, you got to say Q_OBJECT; on it so qmake will recognize the metacompilation | 09:34 |
| entil | 1) I might not be good in explaining this 2) I might be wrong because I found this stuff myself, instead of finding a documentation | 09:34 |
| entil | anyway, qmake && make is basically what it looks like | 09:34 |
| entil | and the .pro file is infinitely nicer than a Makefile | 09:34 |
| entil | and you don't even need qmake all that often, only when you change the .pro file, eg. by adding a new code file to it | 09:35 |
| Teemu | sounds somewhat reasonable | 09:36 |
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| entil | the Q_OBJECT; macro hit me hard. of course I'd seen it before in the sailfish sdk ide, but now I'm not doing that yet, so I forgot to include it | 09:37 |
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| Teemu | makefiles often need some kind of wrap-around meta to build the makefiles | 09:37 |
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| entil | I have nfi if qt apps can be built with less than what qmake puts in the makefile, but the makefile is insane | 09:38 |
| Teemu | else you'll end up pretty easily with a loooooot of complex make macros and includes and lets be honest: programming with make isn't exacly enjoyable | 09:38 |
| entil | http://pastebin.com/9xrhMduY <- that's the Makefile now | 09:38 |
| Teemu | there was a real reason why autotools emerged in the early 1990s even though it was even more horrible than just making the makefiles complex enough | 09:38 |
| entil | yeah, I get annoyed as fsck when I have to get distracted by ... anything, really ... and at first I gave up on this all because of the .pro file, and the sailfish sdk, and everything coming in my way | 09:39 |
| entil | but I think I'm really starting to love qt now | 09:40 |
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| Teemu | so what kind of apps you're about to do? | 09:43 |
| entil | textsecure | 09:43 |
| entil | that is, an ApiClient class for it and a simple cli tool to commandeer it | 09:44 |
| entil | then the next step would be to integrate that into a sailfish project and slap the mitakuuluu architecture on it | 09:44 |
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| TemeV | entil: I had same kind of feeling, when I started writing my Telegramm app. Took me some time to really get started, bacause everything was new, I ran out of patience and gave up :) | 09:50 |
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| entil | also: telegram's not worth it ;P | 09:52 |
| entil | TemeV: if you're interested in textsecure, I'll let you know when I have something to show | 09:52 |
| TemeV | it's better that whatsapp | 09:52 |
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| entil | just by what I've read of the crypto in it, I'd almost prefer whatsapp, but mostly textsecure | 09:52 |
| TemeV | it's not about crypto | 09:53 |
| entil | to me it largely is | 09:53 |
| entil | and openness | 09:53 |
| TemeV | it's about having desktopt client, and server that doesn't ban me | 09:53 |
| entil | telegram doesn't have an opensource server :( | 09:53 |
| TemeV | yeah, that's bad | 09:53 |
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| entil | yeah, you know, I'm aiming to have a desktop client for textsecure here if possible | 09:53 |
| TemeV | I'm not really familiar with textsecure, can I have multible clients at the same time? | 09:54 |
| entil | like I said, I need to do some kind of cli tool to commandeer the apiclient class, so someone could expand that into a qt desktop app | 09:54 |
| entil | TemeV: not exactly sure | 09:54 |
| Teemu | you could make it a weechat plugin and then have multiple clients connect to weechat | 09:54 |
| entil | my immediate concern is having something that talks to the textsecure api and my primary concern is getting this on the phone, anything else is bonus | 09:55 |
| TemeV | textsecure sounds nice, but I don't want yet another IM, that I can't use with all my devices at the same time | 09:55 |
| entil | then either you'll get lucky or you're shit out of luck, or maybe a magic third option | 09:55 |
| entil | the basic tenet of opensource is that if you want it and it doesn't exist, do it for yourself (but don't make it too hard for others to contribute) | 09:56 |
| TemeV | I'm always annoyed to send message with Whatsapp, when I would have proper keyboard infront of me | 09:56 |
| TemeV | but just can't because there is no app | 09:56 |
| entil | ok | 09:56 |
| Teemu | entil: a magic third option i just presented | 09:56 |
| entil | well, let's see if there's some possibility to collaborate on this later | 09:57 |
| Teemu | so you should make a textsecure weechat plugin and then join Nicd- in the effort to produce a sailfishos weechat relay client | 09:57 |
| entil | but to make it absolutely clear, I'm usually very busy and I have a personal roadmap in this, so I can't be arsed by distractions like weechat plugins | 09:57 |
| entil | I don't even know what weechat is or why I'd care :P | 09:58 |
| entil | I liked mitakuuluu and I want that app with crypto | 09:58 |
| entil | -> textsecure | 09:58 |
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| Teemu | weechat is a pluggable IM client that happens to have plugins for irc and some other nonrelevant IM protocols | 09:59 |
| Teemu | also a weechat instance running on vps in some data dungeon can be connected to multiple remotes with crypto | 10:00 |
| Teemu | so i can have the same weechat displayed on a laptop, desktop, tablet and phone if i like | 10:00 |
| coderus | entil: i hope we have success in this yeah :D | 10:00 |
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| Teemu | oh one more thing: shouldn't the maps app run on background during a phone call? | 10:02 |
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| Teemu | some days ago i was happily navigating via a known route just for the heck of it, got a phone call for ten or so minutes and the maps app clearly continued from where the call was answered and shortly jumped to current location | 10:03 |
| Teemu | how hard it is to run n900 applications on a jolla phone? what about compiling/porting? | 10:04 |
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| nbg | hi, is there an app that allows me to use the jolla microphone on my computer running pulse? I thought maybe something like that should be possible, transferring the input stream from jolla to another pulse client, and configuring the client to use this stream as microphone input. not sure about the sound quality though. | 10:44 |
| Teemu | entil: are you mjt or mjtorn or what in github? | 10:49 |
| entil | Teemu: mjtorn | 10:49 |
| entil | I'd love to go by mjt but running out of namespace, and a lot of sites don't even take three-letter users anymore | 10:49 |
| Teemu | the old yatla-problem | 10:50 |
| entil | what's that? something something three-letter acronym? | 10:51 |
| Teemu | yet another tla | 10:51 |
| entil | also: whoever decided to use anything but docopt is a d*ck | 10:51 |
| entil | qt's command-line parsing is (surpriz...) just as bad as everything that's not docopt | 10:52 |
| Teemu | wel | 10:53 |
| Teemu | l | 10:53 |
| Teemu | i suspect they just followed the gnu getopt which has always sucked superbadly compared to any other option parser | 10:53 |
| Teemu | if your comparison is getopt, you can do a shitty job and call yourself hero because your parser is better | 10:54 |
| entil | maybe I shouldn't have heart attacks and strokes over this crap, but whenever you need to do command-line parsing (without docopt) the only reaction is "didn't anyone actually try to use this before releasing, because no one would ever do this" | 10:54 |
| Teemu | getopt is much like bash, "had to do quick bad stuff TO HAVE GPL SOLUTION no matter if it is good or not" | 10:54 |
| entil | I've used gnu getopt in school 10 years ago, can't remember, but this is the enterprisy way of constructing every option with at least two lines of code and setting them into the parser etc | 10:54 |
| entil | http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5/qcommandlineparser.html | 10:55 |
| Teemu | without the linux kernel going gpl, the whole fsf would not have had that much traction and the world would be a lot freer place now | 10:55 |
| Yaniel | how ironic | 10:55 |
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| Nicd- | Teemu: depends on the N900 app but things that are missing include X, GTK and Qt4 | 11:12 |
| Nicd- | so it could be pretty hard to port some | 11:12 |
| * Morpog_PC wonders what RC number the Jolla sailors are testing atm | 11:12 | |
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| Morpog_PC | about 3 weeks back it was RC3 | 11:12 |
| Stskeeps | RC-hell. | 11:14 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:14 |
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| coderus | hellyeah :D | 11:14 |
| Morpog_PC | :D | 11:14 |
| tango_ | well, most qt4 apps can be ported to qt5 quite straightforwardly | 11:14 |
| tango_ | (althought they might not have that native SailfishOS look) | 11:15 |
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| jonfen | hi | 12:19 |
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| jonfen | not sure if I should ask this here or in #sailfishos, but I'd be glad if someone could tell me more about privacy & security options and the possibilities of manually setting up encryption with cryptsetup and the like, the original question was posted on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2n09h9/jolla_takes_100_off_the_price_of_jolla_phone_to/cm9rel6 | 12:35 |
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| sec | I can answer a few questions from that post: temporarily deactivating account synchronization was impossible - It is possible. pictures in emails were loaded automatically without an option to turn that off - There is an option. there was no option to reject single cookies or all of them - Not an option as of now. | 12:42 |
| sec | Also, it seems that there is no way of encrypting files, email and xmpp chats. - I am very sure GPG/PGP works. | 12:42 |
| Nicd- | umm, pictures in emails aren't loaded by default | 12:44 |
| Nicd- | or is it a setting? | 12:44 |
| sec | Yep, there's a button and a setting | 12:44 |
| Nicd- | ah yeah, it's a setting | 12:44 |
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| jonfen | sec: ok, thanks! | 12:58 |
| jonfen | anybody know something about cryptsetup? | 12:59 |
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| japa-fi | jonfen: Used it with fedora | 13:12 |
| juhaj | Any info on Jolla Phone 2 yet? Is such a thing coming? | 13:14 |
| Yaniel | no data on that | 13:14 |
| Nc_ | or, Jolla Phone 2 is 7-inch, and not a phone :) | 13:14 |
| juhaj | Nc_: I think that sentence is self-contradictory | 13:16 |
| Nc_ | very | 13:20 |
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| cryorat | Nc_, :DD | 13:37 |
| cryorat | juhaj, the announcement will be made during the next year | 13:38 |
| jonfen | japa-fi: I was actually thinking about cryptsetup on jolla ;) | 13:39 |
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| stephg | jonfen: I think cryptsetup would be fine | 13:44 |
| stephg | the device mapper stuff I'm not so sure | 13:44 |
| * stephg has never looked tho | 13:45 | |
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| jonfen | I'd love to try but then I'd have to buy and no encryption is really not my thing :( | 13:45 |
| jonfen | in case it didn't work... | 13:45 |
| stephg | well jollas are cheap as chips at the moment :) | 13:45 |
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| jonfen | 250€ is still a considerable amount of money for me tho plus I had been planning to postpone the upgrde from my dumb phone for another 1-2 years | 13:48 |
| jonfen | and then jolla tempted me :D | 13:48 |
| jonfen | brb | 13:49 |
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| jonfen | re | 13:51 |
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| juhaj | cryorat: The end of next year is possibly a bit distant… must consider >:/ | 13:56 |
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| chem|st | re | 13:57 |
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| M4rtinK | well one issue could be that the btrfs filesystem is on a boatload of partitions | 14:10 |
| M4rtinK | you you would have to first get them together somehow (mdraid/lvm) | 14:10 |
| M4rtinK | then create LUKS on that with crptsetup and then place BTFS on top | 14:10 |
| M4rtinK | *BTRFS | 14:11 |
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| sec | I have been having weird bugs where my phone just turns off randomly when using random applications | 14:18 |
| sec | Just happened while taking a picture | 14:18 |
| Stskeeps | contact care | 14:19 |
| sec | Stskeeps: is this the one where the battery connections were lose? | 14:20 |
| Stskeeps | no clue, but i hear shutdowns and i reply care | 14:20 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:20 |
| sec | hm :< | 14:20 |
| sec | I think it's a reproduceable bug. My current camera settings make the phone shut down :P I've tried this ~5 times now. If I change them, it stops happening. | 14:22 |
| Stskeeps | sec: how low battery | 14:22 |
| Stskeeps | ? | 14:22 |
| sec | 87% | 14:22 |
| Nicd- | what settings? | 14:23 |
| Stskeeps | 87% sounds a bit like a magic value.. | 14:24 |
| sec | Nicd-: Stskeeps: Exposure setting at +2 with 3seconds delay is causing it on my phone. Can you check if it happens with you? | 14:27 |
| sec | Working fine otherwise | 14:27 |
| tigeli | sec: can't reproduce | 14:28 |
| sec | :/ | 14:29 |
| M4rtinK | nothing here too | 14:29 |
| M4rtinK | even tried with flash | 14:29 |
| sec | Everything else is on Auto | 14:29 |
| sec | Only 3x3 grids | 14:29 |
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| tbr | sec: do you have shutdowns outside of the camera app? | 14:39 |
| sec | Once yes earlier, can't recall which app it was | 14:40 |
| sec | Otherwise it's been stable as a rock | 14:41 |
| tbr | consider cleaning battery contacts, both sides, carefully. | 14:41 |
| sec | Yes, will do | 14:42 |
| tbr | even reseating the battery repeatedly might help, as it slightly shoves over the surface | 14:42 |
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| Morpog_PC | sec, clean the battery contacts, add a little sheet of paper to gain some more pressure to the contacts | 14:53 |
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| Morpog_PC | Stskeeps, link to Jolla shop on indiegogo page doesn't work | 15:26 |
| Morpog_PC | in that 2nd update | 15:26 |
| Stskeeps | will poke people | 15:26 |
| Teemu | have any had problems with uitukka? | 15:26 |
| Teemu | i've not yet opted in and am considering waiting for the next, if it makes any sense | 15:26 |
| Morpog_PC | Stskeeps, also the link to together | 15:26 |
| Morpog_PC | and link to slush page :D | 15:27 |
| Turski | Teemu: it's generally sluggish | 15:27 |
| M4rtinK | but it is better with zram | 15:29 |
| M4rtinK | the zram module has been rebuilt, so ti works now with it | 15:30 |
| M4rtinK | *it | 15:30 |
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| Morpog_PC | M4rtinK, most sluggishness I had with uitukka was full btrfs | 15:31 |
| Morpog_PC | after a rebalance it was much more smooth and alot less laggy | 15:31 |
| Teemu | mother in law reports connection keeping trouble with uitukka but i'm having some of that with whatever i now have | 15:32 |
| Teemu | hold on | 15:32 |
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| Turski | i still think btrfs was a bad choice for sailfish | 15:32 |
| Teemu | 1.0.8.21 | 15:33 |
| Teemu | is btrfs somehow optimized for raw flash? | 15:33 |
| Morpog_PC | I think it was a decission made in an awkwardness situation where they were forced to use it | 15:33 |
| M4rtinK | well I think more and more that btrfs is always a bad choice :) | 15:33 |
| M4rtinK | a bit too many data corruption/kernel panic threads on the btrfs mailing list lately | 15:34 |
| Turski | i prefer ext4 on my machines | 15:34 |
| M4rtinK | and overall some interesting design decisions | 15:34 |
| Turski | Teemu: i don't think so | 15:34 |
| Turski | Teemu: instead f2fs is optimized for flash | 15:34 |
| M4rtinK | I mostly use LVM + XFS these days | 15:34 |
| Turski | i use just ext4 | 15:35 |
| M4rtinK | modern LVM & modern XFS provides most features of btrfs | 15:35 |
| Morpog_PC | I don't think we will see btrfs on the tablet | 15:35 |
| M4rtinK | but feels much more robust :) | 15:35 |
| Teemu | what's the btrfs about then? russian military vehicles? | 15:35 |
| Turski | Morpog_PC: but they will be able to upgrade to more recent kernel with tablet | 15:36 |
| M4rtinK | LOL | 15:36 |
| Teemu | brooktree video grabbers? | 15:36 |
| Morpog_PC | Turski, well, depends on Intel this time :D | 15:36 |
| M4rtinK | I wote for LVM thin pool with XFS on top on the tablet! :) | 15:36 |
| Turski | i thought it was said that it has intel graphics | 15:36 |
| Teemu | i prefer zfs or ufs+ but then i'm using free software instead of Free Software | 15:36 |
| M4rtinK | that gives you CoW snapshots for factory recovery | 15:36 |
| Turski | and i believe the drivers for that chipset are already upstream | 15:36 |
| Morpog_PC | Turski, they do use android blobs for sure | 15:37 |
| M4rtinK | and the same configuration is heavily used in enterprise so it should actually work, #unlike btrfs :) | 15:37 |
| Turski | Morpog_PC: for what? | 15:37 |
| Morpog_PC | graphics | 15:37 |
| Turski | Morpog_PC: it's intel hardware, it has open source drivers | 15:37 |
| Morpog_PC | even the android ones? | 15:38 |
| * Morpog_PC is suspicious | 15:38 | |
| Turski | there's no "android" chips, it's Atom | 15:38 |
| Turski | & intel HD graphics | 15:38 |
| Morpog_PC | ??? | 15:38 |
| Morpog_PC | with that said you could use windows drivers :D | 15:38 |
| Turski | well, you could install windows on that | 15:39 |
| Turski | it's x86_64 hardware | 15:39 |
| Morpog_PC | but you can't use windows driver on android | 15:39 |
| Morpog_PC | and you can't use linux drivers on android | 15:39 |
| Turski | IT DOESN'T HAVE AN ANDROID | 15:39 |
| Turski | for god's sake... | 15:39 |
| Morpog_PC | Turski, it will use libhybris | 15:39 |
| Turski | why would it? | 15:39 |
| tbr | let's ask this way around: are there wayland drivers? | 15:39 |
| Turski | tbr: yes | 15:40 |
| Morpog_PC | optimized drivers | 15:40 |
| tbr | Turski: and do they work well with 3d and everything? | 15:40 |
| Turski | Morpog_PC: no, no, no | 15:40 |
| Turski | tbr: yes | 15:40 |
| Morpog_PC | Turski, I think Stskeeps already told so | 15:40 |
| tbr | Turski: then I'd imagine that it will be possible to use those. | 15:40 |
| tbr | the out of the box state is on a whole different page | 15:40 |
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| Turski | Morpog_PC: oh? url? | 15:41 |
| Morpog_PC | here in this channel a few days back | 15:41 |
| Morpog_PC | i linked it on TMO | 15:42 |
| tbr | logs are public, see topic | 15:42 |
| Morpog_PC | Turski, http://www.merproject.org/logs/%23jollamobile/%23jollamobile.2014-11-19.log.html | 15:44 |
| Morpog_PC | and http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1448164#post1448164 | 15:44 |
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| Turski | Morpog_PC: ok, damn | 15:46 |
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| Turski | but that hardware however has native linux drivers as far as i understand | 15:47 |
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| Turski | "understandable, but they also have to remember that if you say A) hwcomposer then you need to say B) gralloc and C) android libegl" | 15:53 |
| Turski | that's probably the important bit | 15:53 |
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| M4rtinK | sure, but alternative distros such as Nemo Mobile can still use the open drivers | 15:56 |
| M4rtinK | that's quite a big point | 15:56 |
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| locusf | that is if we can get a suitable hardware adaptation running | 16:00 |
| locusf | cureently Nemo uses the same adaptation as sailfish | 16:00 |
| * tbr has a minnowboardMax here and might play around with it, including nemo | 16:01 | |
| tbr | (it's also a baytrail part) | 16:01 |
| Stskeeps | i want to make as a test that either nemo or ubuntu touch is installable on the thing. | 16:03 |
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| Stskeeps | i can't guarantee x11 based stuff. | 16:03 |
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| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: or maybe Fedora ? :) | 16:13 |
| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: there is some work in progress for Bay Trail tablets by Adam Williamson: https://www.happyassassin.net/fedlet-a-fedora-remix-for-bay-trail-tablets/ | 16:13 |
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| Yaniel | javispedro: soo running tracker-control -s doesn't cause .mediaartlocal folders to appear | 16:45 |
| Yaniel | I assume that is why cover art doesn't show | 16:46 |
| Yaniel | except for albums that are mp3 with embedded art, those get .mediaartlocal | 16:46 |
| Yaniel | is the applications miner not getting run possbly related? | 16:47 |
| javispedro | doubt it | 16:47 |
| Yaniel | it is still throwing the no dbus proxy for miner error at me | 16:48 |
| javispedro | the good news is that in the opt-in update all my non-embedded albumart disappeared | 16:48 |
| javispedro | so at some point I should be able to throw tracker under the magnifying glass | 16:49 |
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| Yaniel | yay, what do they say, schadenfreude... | 16:51 |
| Yaniel | anyway, embedded still works for me | 16:51 |
| Yaniel | non-embedded does not | 16:51 |
| Yaniel | or wait | 16:52 |
| fennekki | Wait, is it possible to make all of this cover art disappear from my gallery | 16:52 |
| fennekki | which is around 90% cover art | 16:52 |
| fennekki | the actual photographs are interspersed somewhere in there | 16:52 |
| javispedro | Yaniel: I've noticed that the non-embedded albumart for mp3 still shows; for m4a is missing. | 16:53 |
| javispedro | I'm having déjà vu though. | 16:53 |
| Yaniel | actually there is one album with with cover.jpg that works | 16:53 |
| Yaniel | and that album is mp3 | 16:53 |
| Yaniel | the m4a with embedded art doesn't work | 16:54 |
| Yaniel | and neither does any of the flac with cover.jpg | 16:54 |
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| Yaniel | and while we are at it, mediaplayer has a hilarious bug now | 16:55 |
| Yaniel | when choosing shuffle all, it creates a play queue with all songs and sets random on, okay | 16:55 |
| Yaniel | but now if I remove a song from the queue | 16:56 |
| Yaniel | it does that just fine | 16:56 |
| Yaniel | bt when I try to remove another, it actually removes the one *before* that | 16:56 |
| javispedro | ah, remorse timer issues? | 16:56 |
| Yaniel | no remorse timers there at all iirc | 16:57 |
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| Yaniel | and no it i no timing thing | 16:57 |
| Yaniel | bbl | 16:58 |
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| comradekingu | How is 2048x1536 more dense on 7.9 inches than on 7.85? (326 vs 320) https://images.indiegogo.com/file_attachments/1032330/files/20141120083547-comparison-table.png?1416501347 | 18:42 |
| Ezko | says 330 on jolla | 18:42 |
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| sec | I don't see anything wrong | 18:43 |
| comradekingu | Ezko: yes, thats less dense than the 336 on the (bigger) ipad3 mini | 18:43 |
| sec | You mean 326? | 18:43 |
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| Ezko | yeah | 18:44 |
| Ezko | 330 and 326 | 18:44 |
| Ezko | not 330 and 336 or 320 and 326 | 18:44 |
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| comradekingu | riiight, disregard disregard ;) | 18:44 |
| comradekingu | while im here, is there a keyboard planned, and if so, will it dock also in vertical alignment? | 18:45 |
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| Teemu | they keyboard is detachable and only in horizontal position, much as in n900 but detachable | 18:46 |
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| sec | comradekingu: given how much support the keyboard got for the phone, I would wager an affirmative. | 18:47 |
| comradekingu | Teemu: could an adapter be made so that you can fix it to both positions? | 18:47 |
| Teemu | i think such an adapter could be made | 18:48 |
| dunp | TOH to tablet? | 18:48 |
| Teemu | to clarify, i was speaking of the phone keyboard | 18:48 |
| comradekingu | i imagine a bigger keyboard would make sense, but i hope it will happen | 18:48 |
| comradekingu | the intel microcode is whats holding me off atm | 18:49 |
| Teemu | a bluetooth keyboard would work | 18:49 |
| sec | Better than libhybris crap | 18:50 |
| comradekingu | a silicon cable extending to the otg port would work a little better | 18:50 |
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| comradekingu | i dont have to use libhybris, i dont see why that would come into play on the tablet though | 18:51 |
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| Stskeeps | oi, libhybris isn't crap.. :P | 18:52 |
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| Stskeeps | it's the only thing that has made it realistically possible to have non-android mobile OS'es where people don't write their own drivers as they own the chipsets.. | 18:53 |
| sec | I know I know, but not depending on libhybris is better imo | 18:53 |
| sec | libhybris is awesome otherwise | 18:53 |
| sec | And crucial to Jolla in the long run | 18:53 |
| Stskeeps | yes, notably that we're not depending on it | 18:54 |
| Stskeeps | we architect specifically so we can use open implementation IF they are performing, stable and functioning appropiately. | 18:54 |
| sec | The more Nexus' you have running Sailfish, the better :P | 18:54 |
| comradekingu | Stskeeps: it is still possible to get good hardware with proper drivers, if whats making your mobile os mobile is libhybris its a compromise to begin with | 18:55 |
| Stskeeps | everything is a compromise.. :P | 18:55 |
| Stskeeps | and i've tried 'made for gnu/linux x11 drivers' in a product.. | 18:55 |
| Stskeeps | that was not a happy experience. | 18:55 |
| sec | Hehe | 18:56 |
| comradekingu | open linux drivers is the benchmark | 18:56 |
| Stskeeps | i hope that one day we have enough sailfishos users that adaptations get made for sailfishos from start, not android. | 18:56 |
| Stskeeps | but today that's not the case. | 18:56 |
| comradekingu | in the long run ill take badly written ones over closed android drivers | 18:57 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 18:57 |
| Stskeeps | that's where you and i are probably different :) | 18:57 |
| Stskeeps | i want to give users a great experience | 18:57 |
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| Stskeeps | and focus on making great OS'es in that area; as drivers and GPUs and CPUs change between products anyway | 18:57 |
| comradekingu | Stskeeps: meanwhile sailfishos is currently buying into what makes android dominant | 18:57 |
| Stskeeps | there's really no other choice.. | 18:58 |
| sec | Yep, bad code is bad code and should not be supported unless under death threats | 18:58 |
| tbr | the death threat is real: not shipping a product at all | 18:58 |
| Teemu | Stskeeps: likewise i'm more interested in how good software i can give ell-i devices than if they're following The Correct Semantic Freedom With Capital Letters(TM) | 18:58 |
| Stskeeps | http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2013/04/wayland-utilizing-android-gpu-drivers.html | 18:58 |
| Stskeeps | is my view on this anyway | 18:59 |
| Teemu | also: i have sideburns, not a full beard so i'm entitled to using whatever software i want to | 18:59 |
| Stskeeps | with meego dying, the interest in non-android systems is gone, basically | 18:59 |
| Stskeeps | from chipset vendor PoV | 18:59 |
| comradekingu | i didnt know people with sideburns took so unkindly to sound logic | 18:59 |
| w00t | Stskeeps: tizen will save us all | 19:00 |
| sec | I belieeve one day, someone will accidentally upload Maemo/Meego sources to the internet | 19:00 |
| Teemu | comradekingu: i prefer freedom to Freedom(as defined by one hippie) | 19:00 |
| sec | You know, misclicks | 19:00 |
| Stskeeps | sec: i wouldn't even want to use those.. | 19:00 |
| comradekingu | Teemu: you prefer ill logic to logic, dont expand on that | 19:00 |
| Stskeeps | MTF. ick. | 19:00 |
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| sec | Stskeeps: as long as my n900 lives | 19:00 |
| sec | Better than freemangordon reversing 30k lines of code every night :P | 19:01 |
| Stskeeps | which reminds me about 'leaked code'..: http://libv.livejournal.com/26972.html | 19:01 |
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| comradekingu | how many jollaphones are there in the wild? | 19:02 |
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| comradekingu | I think going for what the n900 got right makes sense, that seems to be a viable market | 19:02 |
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| sec | I was happy running pure Debian on my N900, and then I lost the magnet | 19:04 |
| sec | Whoever made that design decision should be shot and fed to cats | 19:04 |
| Stskeeps | i wonder how many will run x86_64 debian on the jolla tablet. | 19:04 |
| comradekingu | i would | 19:05 |
| Stskeeps | in chroot or kvm or whichever | 19:05 |
| comradekingu | or maybe the standard mer | 19:05 |
| sec | If someday Jolla the company does an Elop (lets hope not), I would :P | 19:05 |
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| comradekingu | hoping the next phone from jolla makes it viable to run a truly linxu|Gnu system | 19:07 |
| sec | I have a feeling the next phone is going to be with a chinese OEM in partnership | 19:08 |
| comradekingu | I dont really use phones or tablets, but i am considering, just to support something done right | 19:08 |
| Stskeeps | sec: all phones are, to be honest. | 19:08 |
| Stskeeps | well, it is already a systemd/linux device with gnu userland deep down.. | 19:08 |
| Stskeeps | sec: or ODM | 19:08 |
| sec | Err, yeah, that's what I meant | 19:08 |
| comradekingu | uuuuugh | 19:08 |
| Stskeeps | stallman would never use it, but.. | 19:09 |
| sec | It doesn't make sense to have the headaches of an in-house device, when that's not even your product | 19:09 |
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| Stskeeps | good enough for me(TM) | 19:09 |
| sec | Yeah, if we all started browsing the web like stallman, the world would come to an end | 19:09 |
| comradekingu | But why not do better? | 19:09 |
| Nicd- | because it's not commercially viable :P | 19:09 |
| comradekingu | is jolla commercially viable now? | 19:10 |
| Stskeeps | we are trying all the time, but have to remember that food in stomach and house over head is needed in order to code open source.. | 19:10 |
| Nicd- | well it's selling | 19:10 |
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| Nicd- | it's available in multiple countries | 19:10 |
| comradekingu | Stskeeps: open source is what ms is doing nowadays, its profitable, but not sustainable | 19:10 |
| sec | wut? ms? open source? | 19:11 |
| comradekingu | Im thinking it could sell a lot more | 19:11 |
| Stskeeps | us using a more open gpu driver won't make it sell more though .. a better experience would | 19:11 |
| sec | ^^^^^^^ | 19:11 |
| comradekingu | sec: yes, the very important distinction to how open source is meaningless for all areas where it would matter | 19:11 |
| comradekingu | Stskeeps: how are those two comparable? | 19:12 |
| sec | That's the point, they're not, they're different areas on a priority list | 19:12 |
| comradekingu | I dont know that the user experience is where the shoe doesnt fit, but certainly a better set of drivers helps | 19:12 |
| sec | They can open source everything once their devices are selling like hot cakes | 19:12 |
| comradekingu | and meanwhile? | 19:13 |
| sec | If they do so now, some chinese manufacturer will be mass producing clones next week | 19:13 |
| comradekingu | and? | 19:13 |
| sec | and calling it jPhone 6 Plus Plus | 19:13 |
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| comradekingu | Thats a first-world-problem that jolla doesnt have | 19:14 |
| * Stskeeps looks at popcorn bag.. | 19:14 | |
| comradekingu | Nor one that gets solved by having a libhybris and systemd software onboard | 19:14 |
| comradekingu | Lets be honest here, jolla benefits from mer, in turn from old nokia, and whatever intel/TI contributed | 19:15 |
| Stskeeps | at same time though, jolla also contributes quite a lot back. | 19:15 |
| comradekingu | And thats distinctly different from android, being the market leader, in that its better for the sake of making something more free, and less controlled | 19:15 |
| comradekingu | all good | 19:15 |
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| sec | Stskeeps: offline maps pls thnx | 19:16 |
| comradekingu | It seems to me all these people who could be jolla customers are not because they dont use their phones as smartphones, since they cant be trusted | 19:16 |
| comradekingu | and untill recently, it offered no valid input methods for technically apt users | 19:17 |
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| comradekingu | getting big by doing the semi-right thing isnt the best way to go about things, google is already much better at it, and does worse | 19:18 |
| sec | Yep, better go bankrupt doing the right thing | 19:19 |
| Stskeeps | i really indeed love eating soup from stone. | 19:20 |
| Stskeeps | open source has to be sustainable. | 19:20 |
| Stskeeps | it's not cheap doing competitive experiences in mobile space. | 19:20 |
| comradekingu | sec: RIM is steadfast at going bankrupt, and they are doing even less of the right thing | 19:20 |
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| comradekingu | I dont know what kind of numbers game jolla is playing, but they certainly are not above scoffing at extra foss customers | 19:21 |
| sec | There is a *LOT* of difference between RIM and Jolla | 19:21 |
| Stskeeps | comradekingu: in the time it takes to make a open gpu driver i can fix a large amount of complaints from our users in the software stack.. | 19:22 |
| Stskeeps | (as a rather rude example) | 19:22 |
| Stskeeps | we can't fight all battles. | 19:22 |
| Stskeeps | Android is claimed as open source but for a large majority of what you touch on factual selling Android devices, are nowhere nearby open source. | 19:23 |
| Stskeeps | and is getting more and more locked down. | 19:23 |
| comradekingu | Stskeeps: its more about winning the war. If you state that its possible to run debian out of the box on the tablet, what exactly does that hurt? | 19:23 |
| alterego | There's a war? | 19:23 |
| comradekingu | Bang, more users, that are very technically able to overcome hurdles, and contribute back a lot | 19:24 |
| alterego | Jolla just wants a little bit of the ocean :) | 19:24 |
| * sec pokes alterego with a stick | 19:24 | |
| alterego | Anymore is a bonus. | 19:24 |
| sec | come at me bro | 19:24 |
| alterego | lol | 19:24 |
| Stskeeps | comradekingu: you're probably able to run debian but if you want a working GPU...? | 19:24 |
| Stskeeps | or take pictures with the camera.. | 19:24 |
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| comradekingu | yes, but is it overall a sound idea to just keep using hardware that gets deprecated artifically as android drivers arent updated? | 19:25 |
| sharpneli | comradekingu: It's all about how many more euros will additional users bring vs the cost of implementing the drivers. | 19:25 |
| sec | Well, technically you wouldn't be missing much if the camera didn't work | 19:25 |
| * sec hides | 19:25 | |
| sharpneli | Or versus the cost of selecting another chipset | 19:25 |
| sharpneli | Intel is basically donating those bay trails because they're desperate to enter android market | 19:25 |
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| comradekingu | sharpneli: on the tablet the drivers are already free, it took me some digging through the internets to get a lead on that, i think it would be a perfectly valid point to make up-front | 19:26 |
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| alterego | comradekingu: got a source on drivers not being updated? It's really up to the hardware vendors they'll support their SoCs as long as they can be bothered to do so. | 19:26 |
| comradekingu | powerVR drivers suck, it would for sure mean less customers. | 19:26 |
| sharpneli | Then it's fine if there are open drivers already. | 19:26 |
| Stskeeps | it's not powervr. | 19:26 |
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| sec | Thank god | 19:27 |
| sec | That shit's horrid | 19:27 |
| sharpneli | If it's intel stuff they actually have substantially good open drivers | 19:27 |
| sharpneli | Just give us the Android L versions of them and it's all good ;D | 19:27 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. but if you use one thing in android drivers you practically have to use all | 19:27 |
| Stskeeps | camera -> gralloc -> android egl drivers to render the camera images in efficient way.. | 19:28 |
| comradekingu | alterego: i cant think of a single company that runs closed android drivers where they are fully compatible out of the box, and keep working in the long run | 19:28 |
| alterego | Also, if you want to be able to have Android app compatibility, then it's a lot easier if Android drivers are used .. | 19:28 |
| sharpneli | I also can't think of any open drivers that are fully compatible and actually support enough features. :( | 19:28 |
| comradekingu | intels drivers | 19:28 |
| sharpneli | comradekingu: Still not GL4.4/ES3.1 | 19:29 |
| comradekingu | soon freescale | 19:29 |
| sharpneli | But quite fine still | 19:29 |
| alterego | comradekingu: I know you can think of one :) | 19:29 |
| sharpneli | comradekingu: Anything without compute shaders is crap ;D | 19:29 |
| comradekingu | and you got GL4.4 from who? Nvidia nouveau? | 19:29 |
| sharpneli | Nvidia, amd. And ES3.1 for all of the mobile platforms | 19:29 |
| sharpneli | The only difference between 4.4 and ES3.1 is the lack of tesselation | 19:29 |
| sharpneli | And geometry shaders | 19:30 |
| sharpneli | But those don't matter because of compute shader awesomeness <3 | 19:30 |
| alterego | How well is Wayland going to be supported under current Intel graphics drivers? | 19:30 |
| sec | Aww man, this is perfect for an ambiance http://i.imgur.com/wP3Te.jpg | 19:30 |
| comradekingu | right now you need open drivers, in a commercially viable sense, then the ability to purchase chips, at the right price | 19:30 |
| Stskeeps | sec: nice! | 19:30 |
| sharpneli | To be honest I'd be happy with just working drivers :D | 19:30 |
| Stskeeps | +1 | 19:30 |
| Stskeeps | i've done so much hardware hacking for non-android systems over the years | 19:31 |
| comradekingu | intel mobile is bleeding money trying to push chips, sharpneli is very correct in saying they are handing them out for free | 19:31 |
| Stskeeps | working drivers is the thing you want. | 19:31 |
| sec | Ikr, someone on a pc resize this ambiance size please! http://i.imgur.com/wP3Te.jpg | 19:31 |
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| sharpneli | I personally consider drivers to be part of the hardware. So they can be closed for all I care. As long as they are kept up to date and actually work well. | 19:31 |
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| comradekingu | and a lot of people are happy with working drivers for a time being, _more_ people are happy with working open drivers, and its less disaster in the long run for all parties | 19:31 |
| sharpneli | comradekingu: Consider the applications in jolla store. If they'd use open drivers then it would be ES2.0 maximum | 19:32 |
| sharpneli | And frankly that would suck. | 19:32 |
| sharpneli | "Yeah we have this awesome hardware but you are stuck with an ancient API for now" | 19:32 |
| comradekingu | is jolla making more money selling apps or handsets? | 19:32 |
| sharpneli | Handsets are being sold partly due to app ecosystem | 19:33 |
| comradekingu | Because im thinking selling more handsets, even at cost, means more apps sold | 19:33 |
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| comradekingu | the intel move is a sound one, you got everything there | 19:34 |
| comradekingu | just make a point out of it | 19:34 |
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| Stskeeps | one of the sort of grave mistakes did was that they hired a lot of "OMAP" experts.. | 19:34 |
| Stskeeps | +nokia | 19:34 |
| Stskeeps | which made moving to other chipsets damned difficult | 19:34 |
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| Stskeeps | jolla's small because indeed, it focuses on the OS and the experience | 19:35 |
| comradekingu | omap isnt bad though, i dont see why it wouldnt work. Maybe hiring _and_ moving was the mistake | 19:35 |
| comradekingu | Stskeeps: so did palm | 19:36 |
| comradekingu | as did* | 19:36 |
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| svuorela | ..has anyone tried taking the silica qml components off the phone and created enough stub code and wireframes images to make stuff workable ? | 19:36 |
| Stskeeps | and being able to leverage the very large ecosystem of good hardware, tested and war proven designs out there is really good | 19:36 |
| comradekingu | I distinctly remember the influx of good news about their tablet was when everyone started doing new and inventive stuff with it, not neccisarily webos stuff | 19:36 |
| alterego | svuorela: sounds really tedious and for what purpose? :P | 19:36 |
| alterego | svuorela: also, the QML is in the SDK | 19:37 |
| svuorela | alterego: to be able to write apps faster | 19:37 |
| alterego | svuorela: SDK too slow for you? | 19:37 |
| svuorela | yes. | 19:37 |
| sharpneli | Stskeeps: Another argument for ES3.1 in the tablet: Less fragmentation of software in jolla store. If there is going to be jollaphone2 it will nigh certainly have ES3.1. That would mean software for it would not run on the tablet | 19:37 |
| sharpneli | Games that is | 19:37 |
| alterego | svuorela: what spec is your dev machine? | 19:37 |
| SfietKonstantin | svuorela: I tried to do this | 19:37 |
| SfietKonstantin | it's quite a mess | 19:37 |
| SfietKonstantin | well, you need to implement quite some components in C++ side | 19:38 |
| SfietKonstantin | it's not eas | 19:38 |
| SfietKonstantin | y | 19:38 |
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| SfietKonstantin | especially when you only know the interfaces for the C++ stuff, and have to guess | 19:38 |
| svuorela | alterego: virtualbox image on a host with i7 / 16gb ram. | 19:38 |
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| Stskeeps | sharpneli: i don't disagree on the es3.1, just unsure of what i can get. | 19:38 |
| comradekingu | sharpneli: games on a tablet that has nothing but touch input out of the box? Isnt that what nividia is failing at atm? | 19:38 |
| alterego | svuorela: you're running the SDK _in_ a VM? | 19:38 |
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| svuorela | alterego: yes. | 19:38 |
| sharpneli | comradekingu: Yup. But imho the biggest point of ES3.1 is the compute shaders. GPGPU on mobile <3 | 19:39 |
| svuorela | alterego: all binary-only stuff goes into vm's. | 19:39 |
| alterego | svuorela: that includes the build engine VM and the emulator VM nested _in_ your dev VM? | 19:39 |
| svuorela | alterego: yes. | 19:39 |
| alterego | You could take out the emulator and build VMs and run them on your host rather than nested. | 19:39 |
| alterego | Then configure SDK to talk to them. | 19:39 |
| sec | Stskeeps: http://i.imgur.com/P2aFbmy.jpg | 19:40 |
| comradekingu | sharpneli: kde has been meaning to build a tablet for a while, same with many other foss projects, if they could use the jollatablet as a base then thats lots of bulk sales to the right kind of people. | 19:40 |
| alterego | svuorela: what exactly about your development cycles do you feel is slow and a PITA? | 19:40 |
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| Sfiet_Konstantin | sec: super awesome | 19:40 |
| sec | :D | 19:40 |
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| Sfiet_Konstantin | comradekingu: this means that you need open bootloader | 19:40 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | friendly SOC | 19:40 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | (OSS drivers for the GPU part, and maybe CPU part) | 19:41 |
| attah | sec: stealing that right now! | 19:41 |
| svuorela | alterego: everything. I normally do frequent build/run cycles when developing stuff | 19:41 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | Z37xx might work well | 19:41 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | but not sure | 19:41 |
| sharpneli | Yeah. GPU driver in mobile is one of the smallest problems. Even if on desktop it's the biggest and generally only problem. | 19:41 |
| Stskeeps | LLVMpipe on a mobile device is so sexy. | 19:41 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:41 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | Stskeeps: please, no | 19:41 |
| sec | Yeah if someone can do a brush job and make it better, be my guest please http://i.imgur.com/P2aFbmy.jpg | 19:41 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | Stskeeps: I have one of these i7 ivy bridge + Intel HD 4000 | 19:42 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | using Mesa and open intel drivers, I can run civ 5 under linux | 19:42 |
| comradekingu | Sfiet_Konstantin: https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-laptop seems to be able to atleast promise a lot of that, not fully there though | 19:42 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | and some other games | 19:42 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | so :) | 19:42 |
| svuorela | Sfiet_Konstantin: how far did you get in implementing stuff ? | 19:42 |
| Stskeeps | Sfiet_Konstantin: i don't deny that mesa+kms will just work | 19:42 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | svuorela: not far | 19:43 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | comradekingu: my thinkpad runs 0% proprietary drivers | 19:43 |
| Stskeeps | but i have to use that in a higher circumstance, together with camera drivers + buffers, video decoders/encoders, potentially hwcomposer like setups.. | 19:43 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | can't deny I like steam skype etc. | 19:43 |
| alterego | svuorela: if it's just QML stuff, then SSH into device and edit on your device ;) | 19:43 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | comradekingu: my workstation either | 19:43 |
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| comradekingu | Sfiet_Konstantin: and i would continue buying them if lenovo didnt ruin it | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | .. and for various reasons i don't want to hire libva, mesa, kms, v4l2 experts.. | 19:44 |
| svuorela | alterego: I don't get qtcreator autocompletion and such like that - and it is another ugly hack. | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | also because they're damned expensive. | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:44 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | Stskeeps: laptop camera works rather well, but for a tablet, I guess everything is different | 19:44 |
| sharpneli | Tbh I'd really prefer companies would only publish open drivers. I'd immediately fix the horrible register allocator that AMD has on their closed drivers :E | 19:44 |
| alterego | svuorela: sshfs ;) | 19:44 |
| alterego | svuorela: sounds like your setup is the hack, VMs in VMs is bound to be slow. | 19:44 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | video encoders / decoders won't be that easy though | 19:44 |
| svuorela | the good hack would be to get Stskeeps to opensource enough of the c++ components to have something workable on a plain machine :) | 19:44 |
| alterego | svuorela: what makes you think Stskeeps has anything to do with that?! | 19:45 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | svuorela: +1 | 19:45 |
| svuorela | alterego: his title ? | 19:45 |
| Stskeeps | chief cook? | 19:45 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:45 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | chief cook is a good title | 19:45 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | cook on the Jolla ship | 19:45 |
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| Sfiet_Konstantin | take some Android drivers, mix them with glibc | 19:45 |
| sec | Soup all day erry day then | 19:45 |
| alterego | What makes you think developers are an issue? :P | 19:45 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | and you got a libhybris pie | 19:46 |
| svuorela | yeah. he will poison the food if the others doesn't do as he says :) | 19:46 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | :D | 19:46 |
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| svuorela | another thing, can I somehow syncronize the jolla account login information between two devices ? | 19:46 |
| alterego | svuorela: anyway, sshfs and edit in QtCreator, then you can still use the remote run facility and you wont even need to know .. | 19:47 |
| comradekingu | There are zero viable current linux|gnu phones in the world, surely they would come together to contribute | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | comradekingu: if so, we'd have had a top notch intel debian linux phone today. | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | world just doesn't work that way. | 19:47 |
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| alterego | No one is interested in a Debian phone. | 19:48 |
| comradekingu | Stskeeps: its no much top notch as just there, and if it can be done at that level, then it can be done bigger | 19:48 |
| comradekingu | alterego: you are wrong | 19:48 |
| Stskeeps | and shipping a mobile device is hard, even if you are doing it the semi-right way. | 19:49 |
| comradekingu | btw, TOHKBD has made me consider a phone, i backed them, maybe more people would find their way to rationalize a purchase with a link to TOHKBD on the jolla page? | 19:49 |
| alterego | comradekingu: sorry, but I don't think I am. Everyone that I've seen that wants to know if Debian will run on the Jolla Phone or Jolla Tablet have only really been interested running X11 apps. | 19:49 |
| alterego | And installing .debs | 19:50 |
| comradekingu | Stskeeps: its already there, just needs as many buyers as it can get. I know of a truckload of people who would be sold on semi-right _with_keyboard | 19:50 |
| alterego | Who in their right mind would want to run desktop apps on a Phone .. | 19:50 |
| comradekingu | alterego: real people | 19:50 |
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| alterego | You're a niche, a small percentage of a tiny percentage of people that actually buy a phone who care about FOSS and GNU/Linux. | 19:51 |
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| sharpneli | Not on a capasitive screen you won't | 19:51 |
| sharpneli | The precision of any button press is so horrible | 19:51 |
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| comradekingu | alterego: and getting those people onboard is bad why? | 19:51 |
| sharpneli | With resistive screen and stylus it's barely possible | 19:51 |
| sec | oi, you bashing my N900? | 19:52 |
| sharpneli | comradekingu: Because it costs more money than the additional device sales | 19:52 |
| comradekingu | sharpneli: how? | 19:52 |
| sharpneli | sec: Praising it. And bashing the modern touchscreens :D | 19:52 |
| alterego | comradekingu: for instance, people that like the idea of having a full GNU/Linux stack on their devices come to us. You're a minute subset of that already small market. | 19:52 |
| sec | Oh ok then, carry on | 19:52 |
| sharpneli | comradekingu: Implementing open bootloader etc | 19:52 |
| Stskeeps | comradekingu: a consultant pay in some fields can easily reach 100+ eur per hour.. | 19:52 |
| comradekingu | sharpneli: thats just a more right way of doing something clever | 19:53 |
| comradekingu | saying there is the potential for alternative OS-es when there is, is gratis | 19:53 |
| sharpneli | How does that relate to the cost argument? | 19:53 |
| alterego | And what you're asking is completely unreasonable. Yes, we'd all /like/ everything to be open and available. But the industry mainly doesn't, and you're asking for a small company, the small Jolla boat to fight these mega-corps that pull all the strings. Not gonna happen :) | 19:53 |
| Stskeeps | add in specialists to work on getting things working with open drivers and it significantly outweights the benefit of sales... | 19:53 |
| attah | Stskeeps: yeah.. but most of it goes to our pimps ;) | 19:53 |
| sec | I love women | 19:53 |
| comradekingu | alterego: im saying be smart | 19:54 |
| Stskeeps | attah: and i even was humble on the pricing | 19:54 |
| alterego | What you're suggesting isn't smart. | 19:54 |
| comradekingu | it says "we are unlike" that is smart as a small player | 19:54 |
| Stskeeps | not to mention the need to get good guys fired when we switch chipsets.. | 19:54 |
| Stskeeps | to be competitive | 19:54 |
| sharpneli | "Hey let's spend $100k to implement open bootloader so we can sell few more devices" | 19:54 |
| attah | Stskeeps: Yes, you were.. | 19:54 |
| svuorela | Stskeeps: only 100+ eur pr hour? where do you find them that cheap? | 19:55 |
| comradekingu | just link to the TOHKBD campain on the main page, then put "can be made to run alternative OS-es by the user" on the tablet page | 19:55 |
| alterego | comradekingu: you're concentrating on this tiny issue, an issue that barely anyone gives a crap about :) | 19:55 |
| Stskeeps | svuorela: get their signatures while drunk. | 19:55 |
| sec | Heh they don't get drunk easily | 19:55 |
| sharpneli | Beer. The bane of many a programmer. | 19:55 |
| comradekingu | alterego: you could exchange the latter part of your argument with anything, maybe that will help you see why you are misguided | 19:55 |
| tigeli | Stskeeps: what.. are you getting paid? | 19:55 |
| Stskeeps | tigeli: oops. | 19:55 |
| alterego | comradekingu: hardly. | 19:56 |
| sec | ------E ------E ------E ------E ------E get them. Stskeeps is getting paid. | 19:56 |
| alterego | comradekingu: why don't you indiegogo or kickstart your own debian phone? :) | 19:56 |
| comradekingu | it is not an exclusivist argument to make, hardly anyone is still more than 0 btw | 19:56 |
| sharpneli | comradekingu: How many additional sales would you expect from having fully open stack? | 19:56 |
| comradekingu | alterego: because i dont have ties to a cellphone giant that i can resurrect the best parts of | 19:57 |
| alterego | comradekingu: best parts? | 19:57 |
| Stskeeps | we resurrected source code (public), that's it..a | 19:57 |
| comradekingu | sharpneli: thats irrelevant, intel with inhouse drivers and foss wifi is where its at atm | 19:57 |
| Stskeeps | and no, best parts? | 19:57 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:57 |
| comradekingu | thats feasible and viable | 19:57 |
| alterego | comradekingu: there are hardly any closed Nokia parts in the Sailfish stack. | 19:57 |
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| alterego | I'm not even sure they amount to anything at all anymore. | 19:57 |
| sharpneli | Some dbus names! | 19:58 |
| alterego | comradekingu: there were some bits when running on N950 in the early, early, early days ;) | 19:58 |
| alterego | But those are the same bits that MeeGo CE was using. | 19:58 |
| comradekingu | so here is the kicker, jollaphone has no keyboard, instant dismissal from a lot of people | 19:58 |
| alterego | comradekingu: and their other choices are? :) | 19:59 |
| comradekingu | Now someone is doing the work, taking the risk and all that, help them out | 19:59 |
| alterego | How many phones on the market right now have a keyboard. | 19:59 |
| comradekingu | its a win-win | 19:59 |
| sharpneli | alterego: None. Which is a huge wonder | 19:59 |
| sharpneli | Considering how many people would love it | 19:59 |
| sharpneli | I don't think there was ever any market research done | 19:59 |
| comradekingu | just the blackberry passport | 19:59 |
| sharpneli | Everyone just went "iPhone doesn't have qwerty! So we cannot have one either" | 19:59 |
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| comradekingu | no, google did, in their android requirement for 1.0 | 20:00 |
| Aciid | considering what jolla could have been TM I'd like to see Jolla2 with keyboard, blackperry enterprise, removable SD, and mini HDMI port like n97 | 20:00 |
| alterego | sharpneli: I'm not saying it would be bad. But in a world where everyone seems to care how thin their device is, for every 1 person that buys the phone for a keyboard you'll lose 1000s because it looks ugly or bulky compared to your friends'. | 20:00 |
| sharpneli | alterego: Sure. For that reason Jolla should've had keyboard ToH from the go | 20:00 |
| comradekingu | the need for keyboard on phones didnt go away just because every casual user in the world has an iphone or similar | 20:01 |
| alterego | sharpneli: yes, from the go, because Jolla had the resources and time to dedicate to that project ... -_- | 20:01 |
| narchie | Aciid: I want removable battery toholed, two physical keyboards, removable SD with ethernet port, 4g,5g,3g LTE support, | 20:01 |
| narchie | also resistive screen and stylus (i use wacom every 3rd year) | 20:01 |
| alterego | sharpneli: that was sarcasm by the way. | 20:01 |
| sharpneli | alterego: Actually I'm quite sure the additional sales would have paid itself back | 20:01 |
| comradekingu | alterego: thats if you are samsung, jolla isnt | 20:01 |
| alterego | sharpneli: You don't know that, and it basically is completely unrealistic IMO :) | 20:01 |
| narchie | also HDMI and usb2 and usb3 ports so it works on all places | 20:01 |
| Aciid | narchie: I heard WIMAX is a must in the australian backlands, could we fit a small IC transreceiver WIMAX-TOH | 20:01 |
| sec | I want an e-ink other half thanks | 20:02 |
| narchie | also usb slot so I can fit in mouse and keyboard on the go | 20:02 |
| sharpneli | Just an anecdote. I know more people who have not bought jolla for the express reason of it not having a keyboard than people who have bought Jolla | 20:02 |
| comradekingu | jolla has now a removable keyboard, what is there not to like? | 20:02 |
| narchie | no hdmi port | 20:02 |
| narchie | no ethernet port | 20:02 |
| comradekingu | And for every phone jolla sells, there is 1000 users buying bigger and bulkier batteries for their samsung galaxy phones | 20:02 |
| narchie | no multi SD resistive stylus keyboard | 20:02 |
| Aciid | narchie: but with raspberrypi-TOH that all could be today | 20:02 |
| Morpog_PC | all those diehard n900 users in here with their keyboard obsession :D | 20:02 |
| * sec slaps Morpog_PC | 20:02 | |
| * comradekingu i second that notion, slap warranted | 20:03 | |
| sharpneli | Also wtf @ tohkbd | 20:03 |
| alterego | A keyboard ToH is great, it gives people the choice, which is amazing, and the fact the Jolla has this facility, the ToH, makes it unlike. | 20:03 |
| sharpneli | Who had that smart idea of putting arrow keys to the left? | 20:03 |
| Aciid | narchie: fancy multi-card reader? I had one joinin mate with 2.5" usb, think we could TOH that? | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | sharpneli: d-pad? | 20:03 |
| sec | The guy who made the damn thing | 20:03 |
| comradekingu | sharpneli: to similate d-pad i imagine | 20:03 |
| sharpneli | Yeah. But in the process it makes it annoyingly different | 20:03 |
| sharpneli | But let's see how it plays out | 20:04 |
| narchie | also thunderbolt-usb5-VGA-TOH for jolla so I can plug it in my television | 20:04 |
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| alterego | It does not however mean that selling one themselves would really change the situation at all, not to mention there will then be 100s more warranty claims potentially, and 10,000s more man hours developing it, making it look nice, integrating it properly into an OS that doesn't even have full landscape support yet. | 20:04 |
| comradekingu | so everyhing is nice, but im asking myself, why doesnt jolla official make more effort in promoting a 3rd party OTH product that solves so many use-cases | 20:04 |
| sec | But they did | 20:04 |
| sec | They offered a 100 Euro discount coupon | 20:05 |
| Aciid | comradekingu: ever since breadboard-TOH the whole TOH scene has been a joke | 20:05 |
| alterego | Jolla mention the keyboard ToH all the time! | 20:05 |
| sec | You mean you hate blinky lights ._. | 20:05 |
| Yaniel | sec: I think he is after something like advertising it on their homepage | 20:05 |
| comradekingu | im on http://jolla.com/ and thus far no mention | 20:05 |
| alterego | Because we love it, it's a great acheivement that a community can be empowered enough to do something like this themselves, and that to me is worth a lot more than the profits from an official ToH | 20:05 |
| alterego | It shows what the community and what Jolla is /really/ about. | 20:05 |
| Aciid | sec: I bought hundreds of euros worth of arduinos and all I got was this blinking LED | 20:06 |
| Yaniel | the page could use a "community highlights" section actually | 20:06 |
| sec | Because then every TOH creator would be after mentions on their front page -.- | 20:06 |
| sec | It's not that hard to figure out that you can not do everything that is expected of you | 20:06 |
| comradekingu | cases to suit my mood, yes, tohkbd, no | 20:06 |
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| Morpog_PC | no one forces you to get it | 20:07 |
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| Aciid | wheres TOHFLASK, like when I want to conviniently drink it up | 20:07 |
| comradekingu | the biggest selling modern phone that isnt an iphone or android phone was the n900, tohkbd is the biggest news in phones since then | 20:07 |
| Morpog_PC | n900 was in sales numbers a joke I think | 20:08 |
| Morpog_PC | compared to it's symbian counterparts | 20:08 |
| sharpneli | Not where I was. But I'm probably an exception :D | 20:08 |
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| sharpneli | Technical people in Helsinki area. N900's were extremely common | 20:09 |
| Morpog_PC | I would have gotten a N900 back then if it wasn't that fat and used a capacitiv display | 20:09 |
| sharpneli | I still like resistive one more | 20:09 |
| sharpneli | One can use stylus | 20:09 |
| Morpog_PC | N9 was just perfectly made for me :) | 20:09 |
| comradekingu | Morpog_PC: no it wasnt, it was nokias most-selling phone long into the winphone age of nokias, i imagine it still is nokias mostselling phone other than 3210 and 3310 | 20:10 |
| Morpog_PC | no way | 20:10 |
| Aciid | are there any resisitive touchscreens that dont die after a year of usage | 20:10 |
| Aciid | I had an openmoko once. | 20:10 |
| narchie | list of people who use stylus: | 20:10 |
| comradekingu | i didnt make that up, besides, selling symbian v3 phones alongside n900, no matter how many, isnt sustainable | 20:10 |
| Morpog_PC | v3? | 20:11 |
| comradekingu | s60v3 | 20:11 |
| Morpog_PC | did you miss the whole v5 time? | 20:11 |
| Morpog_PC | and anna and belle? | 20:11 |
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| Morpog_PC | those were selling devices | 20:11 |
| Morpog_PC | 5800 express or n8 | 20:11 |
| comradekingu | anna and belle could have been sustainable, the others were not | 20:12 |
| alterego | comradekingu: where are you getting this information, that's absolute rubbish! :D | 20:12 |
| alterego | The N900 sales were nothing compared to the N8 which was being sold at the same time. | 20:12 |
| alterego | The N900 wasn't even properly advertised as a phone .. | 20:13 |
| Morpog_PC | 5800 express music had 15 million sold | 20:13 |
| alterego | comradekingu: maybe in the circles you frequent in, (I'm guessing #debian) it was popular because it was the only GNU/Linux semi-debian oriented device. | 20:13 |
| comradekingu | do you honestly think selling n8's would work in the long run? Have you used one? | 20:13 |
| alterego | But saying it was their best seeling phone is absolute BS :) | 20:14 |
| alterego | I really liked the N9 | 20:14 |
| Morpog_PC | N8sure, I had used one for about 3 years | 20:14 |
| comradekingu | i didnt say that | 20:14 |
| alterego | Erm, N8 .. | 20:14 |
| alterego | Yeah, I used an N8 whilst using the N900 (basically because of the camera) :) | 20:14 |
| Morpog_PC | N8's camera is still better than most mobile phones cameras nowadays | 20:14 |
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| Morpog_PC | it had fm transmitter | 20:15 |
| Morpog_PC | usb host | 20:15 |
| Morpog_PC | radio | 20:15 |
| alterego | Morpog_PC: +1 | 20:15 |
| alterego | N8 was probably one of the best Nokia phones of all time IMO | 20:15 |
| Morpog_PC | only it's software was shit in the beginning :D | 20:15 |
| comradekingu | and which of these capabilites can jolla reproduce in the year 2014 or 2015? | 20:15 |
| alterego | Along with the N9, N900 and N95 | 20:15 |
| Morpog_PC | jolla is not Nokia | 20:15 |
| alterego | The N95 8G being their most successful handset of all time. | 20:15 |
| attah | i simply don't get why people are so in love with fm transmitters :S | 20:16 |
| comradekingu | Is it the n900 success, or the speciality novelty things that nokia did to polish their non sustainable platforms? | 20:16 |
| alterego | The N900 wasn't a success .. | 20:16 |
| comradekingu | im saying novelty, because cameras isnt a profitable business to be in | 20:16 |
| Morpog_PC | attah, have a car radio without bluetooth and aux in :) | 20:16 |
| alterego | Well, it was a success in that it did what it was planned to do. | 20:16 |
| alterego | The N9 and N950 being the next step. | 20:16 |
| sec | Then Elop happened | 20:16 |
| alterego | Which would have worked .. Had MeeGo and Windows Phone not happened :) | 20:16 |
| comradekingu | the n900 was the biggest success since the n95, and it sold for much longer than anything else they had ever since | 20:17 |
| alterego | comradekingu: again, not true | 20:17 |
| attah | Morpog_PC: sure.. but they re kind of like fax machines now.. you know they exist.. but you never really see one | 20:17 |
| alterego | comradekingu: where are you getting this information? | 20:17 |
| Morpog_PC | in which alternative reality do you live in comradekingu ? | 20:17 |
| tigeli | alterego: I still think 3210 was the best ;) | 20:17 |
| comradekingu | agreed | 20:17 |
| alterego | tigeli: a lot of people did :) | 20:17 |
| Teemu | not all N are even the same series | 20:17 |
| Morpog_PC | 321 was great :D | 20:18 |
| Morpog_PC | 3210 | 20:18 |
| Teemu | 3210 suffered from the Navi Key(TM) which was sucky | 20:18 |
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| comradekingu | alterego: sales figures, mixed with some insight, do note if im wrong about anything | 20:18 |
| Teemu | one button that does all that is supposedly easy and everybodys grandmother had serious trouble with it | 20:18 |
| Teemu | N95 also is not related to N900 in any way | 20:18 |
| alterego | comradekingu: you are wrong about N900 being the most successful handset after N95 8G | 20:18 |
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| HarhaanJohtaja | http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/28/us-nokia-n-idUSTRE64R1DI20100528 | 20:18 |
| tuomasjj1asanen | N900 probably sold less than 1m | 20:19 |
| Teemu | N9 and N950 are direct descendants of N900 but N900 itself sold quite little | 20:19 |
| alterego | comradekingu: what sales figures? :) | 20:19 |
| comradekingu | im not saying it is, but that the time they were both sustainable ideas | 20:19 |
| alterego | Teemu: exactly. I don't know where this guy is getting his information :) | 20:19 |
| comradekingu | music-centric phones and camera phones isnt going to be anything but a sub-segment in the long run | 20:19 |
| alterego | comradekingu: you were just saying the N900 was the most successful device after the N95, that just isn't true :D | 20:19 |
| comradekingu | ok, then what | 20:20 |
| alterego | comradekingu: music centric phones don't exist now Nokia is gone. | 20:20 |
| comradekingu | exactly | 20:20 |
| alterego | comradekingu: No one sells phones all about Music, even Sony scrapped their Walkman line of phones ;) | 20:20 |
| comradekingu | and it was barely able to keep nokia afloat while it did | 20:20 |
| comradekingu | sony ericsson tried it too, gone the same way | 20:20 |
| alterego | comradekingu: So your point, is basically, pointless. | 20:20 |
| comradekingu | no it isnt | 20:21 |
| comradekingu | n900 is a viable market, keeping nokia in the red with novelty isnt | 20:21 |
| alterego | Yes it is, you said that Music centric and Camera centric phones are not going to be anything more than a sub-segment in the long run | 20:21 |
| alterego | Well, music phones just don't exist anymore. | 20:21 |
| comradekingu | yes | 20:21 |
| alterego | Camera-centric phones don't really exist anymore either. | 20:21 |
| alterego | So what's your point? | 20:21 |
| * Morpog_PC is not sure if he is being trolled atm | 20:21 | |
| sec | Welcome to the internet | 20:22 |
| tuomasjj1asanen | Hmm.. this discussion reminds be about one pic.. | 20:22 |
| alterego | Phones can play music, phones can take pictures. They all do it except for really cheap barely even feature phone, phones :) | 20:22 |
| tuomasjj1asanen | "Someone is wrong on the internet!" | 20:22 |
| comradekingu | and they shouldnt have existed, it was only a year 2000 novelty, and then something nokia cooked up to try and loose less money | 20:22 |
| alterego | tuomasjj1asanen: lol :D | 20:22 |
| alterego | comradekingu: tell that to the N95, a music and camera centric phone that is one of the most successfull handsets of all time! | 20:23 |
| comradekingu | alterego: my point is that if you want to learn anything about how to operate the good parts of nokia, in a market that is _dominated_ by iphones and android, the n900 is the one to copy | 20:23 |
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| alterego | comradekingu: bullshit :) | 20:23 |
| alterego | (excuse my french) | 20:23 |
| comradekingu | alterego: at that time it was still viable, its both though, so it doesnt count for one or the other | 20:23 |
| Yaniel | the good parts of nokia were more the quality I'd say | 20:24 |
| alterego | *sigh* | 20:24 |
| alterego | Yaniel: yeah, and the innovation. | 20:24 |
| comradekingu | Yaniel: we are assuming thats still as good | 20:24 |
| alterego | What to learn from Nokia, be agile, but don't work on a 100 different possible platforms. | 20:24 |
| comradekingu | alterego: n900 was innovative, n8 and 5800 were a twitching giant dying a slow death | 20:25 |
| alterego | comradekingu: not true. | 20:25 |
| alterego | comradekingu: you don't know that. | 20:25 |
| Yaniel | 5800 was kind of a "teen phone" IMHO | 20:25 |
| alterego | comradekingu: you're guessing, making assumptions based on your own bias opinions. | 20:25 |
| alterego | comradekingu: You're not being objective at all, anyway, late for me, so g'night! :) | 20:26 |
| Yaniel | it suited a certain target group perfectly well | 20:26 |
| comradekingu | are people flocking to buy the lumix/leica smartphone, no, but some are, in the numbers jolla is working, that would be viable, but they dont have the people to do it | 20:26 |
| Iltsu | 5800 was released lot before N900 or N8 | 20:26 |
| comradekingu | it still competed and lost vs the iphone, no? | 20:27 |
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| Yaniel | yeah and xp lost to win7 | 20:27 |
| comradekingu | the idea of slate does all things idea seems pretty prevalent, whoever invented it | 20:27 |
| comradekingu | Yaniel: no it didnt | 20:27 |
| comradekingu | win7 was a disaster because of the way winxp was a success | 20:28 |
| comradekingu | yes it sold, but it lost foothold moreso than xp solidified it in its day | 20:28 |
| comradekingu | keep doing that, and win8++++ to death | 20:28 |
| Yaniel | the point being, they are from different eras | 20:29 |
| comradekingu | well you could still pull that kind of stuff back then | 20:29 |
| comradekingu | the future for phones is undoubtably what jolla is doing, and i think better, but it is also not in touchscreen only | 20:30 |
| comradekingu | that is too much of a distraction from getting things done | 20:30 |
| Yaniel | what jolla needs most is some rock solid hw | 20:30 |
| Yaniel | and stable sw | 20:30 |
| comradekingu | like amiga? | 20:31 |
| comradekingu | Remember their marketing department, i still want to forget | 20:31 |
| comradekingu | and palm is a good example of where i think jolla currently fails a bit | 20:33 |
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| comradekingu | Im not asking for risk, im just asking for a little bit of tuning to allow for more customers | 20:33 |
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| sec | That tuning is expensive | 20:33 |
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| comradekingu | you misunderstand me | 20:33 |
| comradekingu | i dont want my end goal to be carried out on jollas behalf, that isnt possible, but its still a laudable goal | 20:34 |
| Yaniel | I'd say focus on getting to a point where you can say "tired of wp/android/iphone" crashing? try crashing this | 20:34 |
| comradekingu | I just want whoever is even considering sending a text-message to know that there is a modern way to do it where you can type on a keyboard | 20:34 |
| Yaniel | err, move the latter " to the end of the line | 20:35 |
| comradekingu | that sells phones | 20:35 |
| sec | That's a very pointless goal. People restart their phones, not replace them. | 20:35 |
| Yaniel | and at that point think of what would be cool and see if it sells | 20:35 |
| Yaniel | I hear a lot of people cursing about how they have to restart their phone *again* | 20:36 |
| comradekingu | is that something they often change their phones over? | 20:36 |
| Yaniel | but I guess they might be getting used to that | 20:36 |
| Yaniel | no, but it has some say when they do next time | 20:36 |
| comradekingu | and/or something they are technically apt to consider gauging at purchase | 20:36 |
| comradekingu | anyone can call their phones stable | 20:36 |
| sec | Most people haven't heard of Jolla | 20:37 |
| sec | They'd just buy another Android | 20:37 |
| comradekingu | oh, its old nokia, i see | 20:37 |
| comradekingu | another one of those flat phones, no, not interested | 20:37 |
| Yaniel | related to stable is also the "just works" aspect | 20:37 |
| comradekingu | oh a keyboard, thats nice, typing on these screens never was for me | 20:37 |
| sec | As Stskeeps said. build an excellent user experience. nothing sells more | 20:38 |
| grzywacz | +1 | 20:38 |
| comradekingu | "jolla, the keyboard alternative phone." Is a lot easier sell than "Jolla, that sailfish sure is stable" | 20:38 |
| Yaniel | well, that is essentially "just works" | 20:38 |
| sec | The iPhone just works too | 20:39 |
| Yaniel | exactly | 20:39 |
| Yaniel | thats why it sells | 20:39 |
| comradekingu | if you consider getting tracked as working concept of what i accept to be a phone | 20:39 |
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| sec | Well no, I'd wager it sells because of its marketting and brand image | 20:40 |
| comradekingu | i dont want a spying device that is targeted at me, which isnt a nerd demographic in this day and aye | 20:40 |
| comradekingu | age | 20:40 |
| sec | Neo900 it is for you | 20:40 |
| comradekingu | yes. where can i buy one? | 20:40 |
| sec | On the internet eventually! | 20:41 |
| comradekingu | Id like to send that message, "dear internet, it is so fun being on the preorder, it is almost as if i dont have to imagine writing messages" | 20:41 |
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| comradekingu | and then quick-dial my macro expletives to really drive the point home | 20:42 |
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| comradekingu | But lets get the question answered, why isnt jolla promoting tohkbd on their landing site? | 20:43 |
| sec | Becuase then you'd have other people crying about promotion | 20:44 |
| comradekingu | good! | 20:44 |
| comradekingu | are there any equally fantastic ideas, come right this way | 20:44 |
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| comradekingu | the tablet has no problems selling, but i think a lot of people would come down from sitting on the fence over the freedom issue, as-good-as-possible is very much more-than possibly-wrong amounts of being worthy of funding | 20:47 |
| alterego | -_- | 20:48 |
| alterego | I guess we should all be sorry that as good as possible isn't good enough, for you :P | 20:48 |
| comradekingu | so even if its just the most viable solution that can be sourced in the current market, it is still the best effort | 20:48 |
| comradekingu | alterego: it is, but i want to make sure jolla and me are in a clear understanding about that fact | 20:48 |
| comradekingu | "world's first crowdsourced tablet" doesnt really strike me as the best point to make | 20:50 |
| alterego | I don't think Jolla's understanding is under argument here, it's your understanding of their communications and activities that you seem to have issues with. | 20:50 |
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| comradekingu | "Be a part of" ok, sounds good, im rallying behind this "making the world’s first people powered tablet" what? | 20:51 |
| comradekingu | and then it assumes i know what sailfish is | 20:51 |
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| alterego | Did it assume wrongly? | 20:51 |
| comradekingu | No, but as has been the topic of conversation, i am not most people | 20:51 |
| alterego | You're right, you're not, and the people that that campaign is targetted at all know what Sailfish is. | 20:52 |
| alterego | We want people that support Sailfish to get the best possible deal on the tablet, get the most amount of say on an OS they love, enjoy and are passionate about, don't care so much about anyone elses ideas generally, because if you don't know what Sailfish is, then your input is probably not going to be that helpful. | 20:53 |
| comradekingu | Which is why somethign along the lines of "no spying on the user, not a toy operating system, really sleek, burh!" has more power | 20:53 |
| comradekingu | alterego: why would you target a campaign at people who know what sailfish is, that is just narrow | 20:54 |
| alterego | Hah | 20:54 |
| comradekingu | make people understand what sailfish is by selling a horde of tablets instead | 20:54 |
| alterego | I think you're misunderstanding the point of the campaign slightly, it's for people who are interested in getting the next Jolla device before general sales that want to help shape the hardware and software. | 20:54 |
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| alterego | Your average customer will hopefully find out about the device and the platform in the shops, the stuff you mention is mentioned on the jolla.com website you know ;) | 20:55 |
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| comradekingu | ok, next step in my thinking process is i think the picture looks sleek, so im back in, undaunted by previous choice of words | 20:55 |
| comradekingu | and then "we believe in privacy" ok, like apple, or? So much infact that you wrote the word privacy on that image, subtle | 20:56 |
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| comradekingu | and then, again! "At Jolla, we believe in your privacy" | 20:56 |
| * sec needs to get his N900 scratchbox up again | 20:56 | |
| * lpotter keeps reading "privacy" as "piracy" | 20:57 | |
| alterego | lpotter: stop downloading those torrents ;) | 20:57 |
| comradekingu | the introduction to the tablet was nice. The people powered section should be moved to the top | 20:58 |
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| sec | How many tablet devices are they shipping now? | 20:58 |
| sec | 5000? | 20:58 |
| alterego | sec: I don't know, but the campaign end date isn't that close. :) | 20:59 |
| covox | whoa | 20:59 |
| comradekingu | hopefully 10k, thats when most all moq cutoffs start being pleasant | 20:59 |
| covox | so now I know what the 000 emergency number screen looks like | 20:59 |
| alterego | Heh | 21:00 |
| sec | Yes, a lot of people make up their minds right when the campaign is about to end | 21:00 |
| Stskeeps | covox: accidential dialing, or? | 21:00 |
| Nicd- | the 112 phone UI is NICE | 21:00 |
| Nicd- | so red and alarming | 21:00 |
| Nicd- | and tells you not to hang up | 21:00 |
| covox | Stskeeps: my housemate was incredibly sick | 21:00 |
| Nicd- | I thought that was a nice touch | 21:00 |
| covox | kids, don't get autoimmune hepatitis | 21:01 |
| Stskeeps | covox: okay, i hope that the call went through and he got some help | 21:01 |
| Stskeeps | covox: it's the worst nightmare of mine that for some reason somebody can't get through to emergency with his phone. | 21:01 |
| Nicd- | my 112 call worked without issue | 21:01 |
| covox | Stskeeps: all good, he's been evac'd safely | 21:01 |
| Stskeeps | good | 21:01 |
| covox | I was quite impressed that it picked up the local emergency number and told you to stay on the line | 21:02 |
| sec | I've never used 112 calls | 21:02 |
| alterego | covox: that's great to hear, hope he has a fast recovery. | 21:02 |
| Tegu | me neither | 21:02 |
| Nicd- | covox: I think it calls 112 which redirects to any local number | 21:02 |
| covox | alterego: me too man | 21:02 |
| Nicd- | at least the latter part should be true in the EU | 21:02 |
| alterego | The emergency number handling is probably the only part of the dialer I didn't write ;) | 21:03 |
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| alterego | There is ofono API that provides emergency numbers though. | 21:03 |
| stephg | 112 was GSM globally I thought | 21:03 |
| alterego | Which comes through SIM and network. | 21:03 |
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| covox | might be that, it didn't obviously redirect to 112 | 21:03 |
| alterego | stephg: yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right afaik, but the SIM emergency numbers have other onces. | 21:03 |
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| alterego | For instance, if I dial 999, the phone should act the same. | 21:04 |
| covox | probably just something on the SIM | 21:04 |
| alterego | And that is exposed through ofono. | 21:04 |
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| alterego | covox: it's through the SIM API iirc, but comes from network. | 21:04 |
| sec | How many people here are actual Jolla staff? | 21:05 |
| sec | Estimated number. I've heard all of you are IRC nuts apparently so I assume quite a few | 21:05 |
| alterego | It's how roaming, etc. Works, it also redirects other emergency numbers, so if I'm in some other country and I dial 999, I believe it routes me to the local emergency services, even though I wouldn't be in the UK and their emergency number isn't 999. There's some service provider network magic going on in the background there. | 21:05 |
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| stephg | alterego: that's quite cool | 21:07 |
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| stephg | didn't realise the 'mapping' would work in reverse | 21:07 |
| alterego | Yeah, your phone dials home and your service provider at home routes back to where you actually are. :) | 21:07 |
| sec | Do I get charged ISD or? | 21:08 |
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| alterego | Don't get charged anything for emergency calls ;) | 21:08 |
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| sec | Yes locally, I don't know how that would work internationally | 21:09 |
| alterego | You might have to have insurance in the US, but generally it's free :P | 21:09 |
| sec | Lol | 21:10 |
| comradekingu | Since i spent time whining about the marketing i feel compelled to rewrite the indiegogo page, anywhere i could propose my changes? | 21:10 |
| alterego | t.j.c ? | 21:10 |
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| comradekingu | tjc? | 21:11 |
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| sec | Care | 21:11 |
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| comradekingu | thats tlc | 21:12 |
| stephg | together.jolla.com, or care at jolla.com | 21:12 |
| stephg | ^^ the latter's an email address | 21:12 |
| stephg | the former a website | 21:12 |
| alterego | You could also mention it at the next community IRC meeting | 21:12 |
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| Stskeeps | care is the worst possible place to send that to.. | 21:13 |
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| alterego | Stskeeps: my thoughts exactly .. | 21:13 |
| comradekingu | i just want whoever is responsible for the wording of that page | 21:13 |
| stephg | next meeting is on Tues, the agenda is on TJC, sec | 21:13 |
| comradekingu | want to work along the lines of that, not order-by-chaos method | 21:13 |
| sec | Yes, I saw it. I am interesting in the open source points myself | 21:14 |
| chem|st | comradekingu: for sure "crowd sourced" is pretty wrong... if the device is written in stone already | 21:14 |
| stephg | https://together.jolla.com/question/54157/sailfishos-open-source-collaboration-meeting-planning/ | 21:14 |
| alterego | comradekingu: not really one person, there's things like legal review, content editors, bla, blah usually ;) | 21:15 |
| comradekingu | im steering clear of all that | 21:15 |
| sec | Haha | 21:15 |
| comradekingu | i just want write permission honestly ;) | 21:16 |
| comradekingu | on a serious note, i am aware of that, and i intend to keep it within reason | 21:16 |
| comradekingu | i dont see how bringing it up in a meeting does most of the people who attend it any good | 21:17 |
| alterego | comradekingu: it doesn't you just mention it in the any other business part and whoever is listening will make sure your thoughts are passed on to where they need to go ;) | 21:17 |
| comradekingu | ok | 21:18 |
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| comradekingu | two days, tall order | 21:18 |
| alterego | Also, mentioning it on t.j.c isn't a completely horrendous idea, it's just not the greatest platform for that kind of feedback to be honest. | 21:19 |
| alterego | comradekingu: or mentioning it here again during "business hours" it's 23:20 in Finland right now and Sunday night ;) | 21:20 |
| comradekingu | ill see how much faith my work inspires in myself | 21:20 |
| comradekingu | Im from norway, i think the finns are +1 or +2 | 21:21 |
| alterego | Is norway +1 GMT? | 21:22 |
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| Nicd- | finland is +2 | 21:22 |
| alterego | Finland is +2 GMT ;) | 21:22 |
| alterego | Otherwise known as "My IRC time", heh. | 21:22 |
| comradekingu | i think so | 21:23 |
| comradekingu | <3 the finns | 21:23 |
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| fennekki | what | 21:58 |
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| SylvieLorxu | Does anyone have a clue how the Jolla Phone ( http://shop.jolla.com/eu_en/cat-jolla/jolla-1.html/ ) compares to something like the Neo900 ( http://neo900.org/ )? According to the tablet site, Sailfish OS is "Independent and open source" but then again, "so is" Android. Is there any info about how "Open Source" it truly is? | 22:12 |
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| tbr | SylvieLorxu: you can buy it and hold it in your hands. as opposed to nothing concrete. | 22:16 |
| SylvieLorxu | tbr: That says absolutely nothing | 22:17 |
| tbr | SylvieLorxu: yes, there is plenty of info, if you look around. most of it is open, based on Mer and Nemomobile. Closed bits are mostly hardware libraries licensed from OEM/ODM | 22:18 |
| tbr | and some UI bits and system apps | 22:18 |
| SylvieLorxu | ... | 22:18 |
| SylvieLorxu | "Some UI bits and system apps" | 22:18 |
| SylvieLorxu | Wow, that's worse than Android :/ | 22:18 |
| tbr | orly? | 22:18 |
| SylvieLorxu | Yes, Android's UI is completely FOSS | 22:18 |
| SylvieLorxu | It has some system apps but you can run it without those | 22:19 |
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| tbr | you can run without the ui bits, then it becomes nemomobile | 22:19 |
| SylvieLorxu | But okay, good to know Sailfish OS is not truly Open Source then, and it's just a marketing thing :/ | 22:19 |
| tbr | nobody claims (modulo marketing failures) that it's completely open | 22:19 |
| SylvieLorxu | http://jolla.com/tablet - "Jolla Tablet’s Sailfish operating system will be unlike anything you’ve tried before. Once you try it, you’ll never want to go back. Independent and open source, change whatever you like, whenever you like." | 22:20 |
| SylvieLorxu | "Independant and open source" | 22:20 |
| SylvieLorxu | "change whatever you like" | 22:20 |
| tbr | yes, you can | 22:20 |
| SylvieLorxu | No, it literally states it's completely FOSS | 22:20 |
| SylvieLorxu | No, you can't, because the UI parts are proprietary, and so are some system apps | 22:21 |
| SylvieLorxu | This is really scammy | 22:21 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: mind presenting some marketing heads on a silver plate for the community meeting please? | 22:21 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: whipped cream and cherry are optional | 22:21 |
| Tegu | yea :/ if sailfish 2.0 doesn't actually do it differently | 22:21 |
| Tegu | compared to 1.0 | 22:22 |
| tbr | SylvieLorxu: outside the domain of the jolla marketing morons, things are being discussed pretty clearly | 22:22 |
| SylvieLorxu | tbr: That doesn't change the fact that the marketing department is still spreading lies | 22:22 |
| tbr | SylvieLorxu: and they already got a bludgeoning out of it | 22:23 |
| tbr | SylvieLorxu: aparently someone still missed one | 22:23 |
| SylvieLorxu | But at least I really clearly know now that Jolla and Neo900 aren't comparable at all | 22:23 |
| SylvieLorxu | https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/jolla-tablet-world-s-first-crowdsourced-tablet says "powered by open source" which is still purposely misleading but not a plain out lie | 22:23 |
| SylvieLorxu | Unlike http://jolla.com/tablet, yeah | 22:24 |
| tbr | meh | 22:24 |
| tbr | you're taking it from a fundamentalist point of view, get real | 22:24 |
| SylvieLorxu | It's like buying a DRM-free DVD which still has DRM on some of the scenes | 22:24 |
| SylvieLorxu | It has nothing to do with "fundamentalist" or "getting real" | 22:24 |
| SylvieLorxu | Lies are lies | 22:24 |
| tbr | ok, you clearly have no intention to have a reasonable discussion, have a nice day. | 22:25 |
| SylvieLorxu | lol | 22:25 |
| SylvieLorxu | That's an easy way to cop out, but fine by me | 22:25 |
| SylvieLorxu | I have better things to do than waste my time with a company that clearly tries to scam people | 22:26 |
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| tbr | *slowclap* | 22:28 |
| tbr | nevertheless he has a point about jolla marketing | 22:28 |
| tbr | morons | 22:28 |
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| stephg | haters gonna hate | 22:30 |
| Tegu | "HarhaanJohtaja has quit" | 22:30 |
| fennekki | how can you even #jollamobile without ignoring parts and joins | 22:31 |
| Tegu | coincidence :D | 22:31 |
| javispedro | hey, it's scammy | 22:32 |
| Tegu | hmm, I dunno | 22:32 |
| javispedro | but so is the part about Android having an "open UI" | 22:32 |
| javispedro | the only open Android I know of is Replicant | 22:32 |
| Tegu | I keep then on everywhere | 22:32 |
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| fennekki | fundamentally the issue with claiming sailfish on anything is open source is that the drivers are blobs and the UI isn't open | 22:33 |
| fennekki | isn't the rest pretty much mer | 22:33 |
| Tegu | maybe I should switch to weechat 1.0 (it has toggleable filters. hide or show with a shortcut) | 22:33 |
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| tbr | it's a bit more complicated, but he lost it already at hardware adaptation, so I didn't bother | 22:34 |
| fennekki | More complicated than that? | 22:34 |
| tbr | there is a nice overview picture by carsten... | 22:34 |
| tbr | somehwere in the logs | 22:34 |
| stephg | tbr HA a necessary evil these days? no? | 22:34 |
| stephg | the UI, well, it's also not a perfect world (but in another way) | 22:35 |
| fennekki | I feel like Jolla is "powered by open source" in much the same way GNU/Linux is powered by GNU, if you get what I mean | 22:35 |
| sharpneli | Well it's as open as Android is | 22:35 |
| tadzik | heheheh | 22:35 |
| sharpneli | And people call Android an Open Source project ;) | 22:35 |
| fennekki | sharpneli: the AOSP *is* an Open Source project | 22:35 |
| fennekki | of course | 22:35 |
| fennekki | it's not Android | 22:35 |
| sharpneli | fennekki: So is Mer and Nemo. | 22:35 |
| sharpneli | And every android device in reality has binary blob drivers and bunch of closed google stuff on top | 22:36 |
| fennekki | sharpneli: regarding which comment | 22:36 |
| fennekki | not necessarily Google | 22:36 |
| sharpneli | fennekki: Mer and Nemo are fully open | 22:36 |
| fennekki | Yeah, I konw | 22:36 |
| fennekki | know* | 22:36 |
| fennekki | and that's pretty cool | 22:36 |
| jonwil | Actually I dont know that Mer and Nemo are 100% FOSS, don't they use GPU driver blobs? | 22:37 |
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| sharpneli | jonwil: Then AOSP is not open source either | 22:37 |
| fennekki | like | 22:37 |
| sharpneli | You cannot use it without closed blobs | 22:37 |
| sharpneli | Because there is no mobile HW with fully open stuff | 22:37 |
| jonwil | yep, its not 100% FOSS | 22:37 |
| fennekki | technically if the blobs are not in the fundamental distribution and if it could, on theoretical hardware, run without blobs | 22:38 |
| sharpneli | Yes. | 22:38 |
| fennekki | the problem with that is that you can't just write a nouveau analogue for these phone socs | 22:38 |
| stephg | I refer you to necessary evil, these days | 22:38 |
| fennekki | it's too much effort | 22:38 |
| sharpneli | Which is why I personally don't really care about drivers being blobs as long as they work | 22:38 |
| jonwil | But for 99.99% of use cases, the fact that it has GPU blobs isn't as big a deal | 22:38 |
| fennekki | the main problem with blobs is that *when* they don't work, there's nothing you can do | 22:38 |
| sharpneli | It's the same as the HW isn't open either | 22:38 |
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| fennekki | wasn't there actually some device with open hardware | 22:39 |
| fennekki | òh | 22:39 |
| fennekki | it was a processor of some sort | 22:39 |
| sharpneli | fennekki: That is true. However thanks to android they are in the "barely usable" level at the minimum. | 22:39 |
| sharpneli | Yeah. But good luck on using that to make a tablet | 22:39 |
| fennekki | that was mostly a tangent | 22:39 |
| tbr | stephg: yes, sadly | 22:39 |
| fennekki | of course, it's kind of dumb to keep soc graphics drivers as blobs, in my opinion | 22:40 |
| fennekki | I mean, if you released them, what would be the worst that could happen? | 22:40 |
| fennekki | it's not like it prevents reverse engineering anyway | 22:40 |
| sharpneli | Others would sue you to kingdom come? | 22:40 |
| fennekki | no | 22:40 |
| fennekki | I mean | 22:40 |
| sharpneli | Because everything in graphics is patented to the maximum | 22:40 |
| fennekki | oh | 22:40 |
| fennekki | right | 22:40 |
| fennekki | not just graphics tho | 22:40 |
| sharpneli | If the drivers show, as an example, that your pipeline uses only floats you will get sued | 22:40 |
| * javispedro coughs http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg0NTQ | 22:41 | |
| fennekki | I'm sure Nokia owns some patents on some of the hardware in the Jolla for one | 22:41 |
| sharpneli | This is no joke. SGI owns a patent of full float rasterizer. | 22:41 |
| jonwil | As for the "you cant write open drivers for these SOCs" see http://freedreno.github.io/ http://limadriver.org/ | 22:41 |
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| sharpneli | The patent literally is "A rasterized where every part uses floats and no integers anywhere" | 22:41 |
| javispedro | the state of "mobile" GPU free drivers is actually very interesting | 22:41 |
| fennekki | after the Apple patent on their menu layout I stopped believing in patents | 22:41 |
| javispedro | except for the PowerVR, which is mostly a wasteland | 22:41 |
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| sharpneli | fennekki: The problem is not us believing in them. The problem is judges believing in them | 22:42 |
| fennekki | sharpneli: no, I mean, I stopped believing they could ever be useful | 22:42 |
| sharpneli | Sure. But they are immensely harmful | 22:42 |
| fennekki | I have yet to see a single case of patents used for any reason except making other companies pay for stupid shit | 22:42 |
| sharpneli | And I understand why a company might want to hide as much as possible | 22:42 |
| fennekki | well, unless you separate "driving others out of business" | 22:42 |
| fennekki | Software patents are even wors | 22:43 |
| fennekki | e | 22:43 |
| fennekki | it's the same, except now three companies hold the same patent | 22:43 |
| fennekki | because patent officials don't understand software | 22:43 |
| jonwil | Software patents are crap | 22:44 |
| jonwil | and I am 100% against them | 22:44 |
| sharpneli | Yup. They server pretty much only to slow technical advancement down | 22:44 |
| sharpneli | *serve | 22:44 |
| stephg | bedtime, g'night folks | 22:44 |
| jonwil | The biggest problem in the US isn't patents per se, its the way the system has been perverted through the courts (various supreme court rulings etc) from what the founding fathers of the USA intended it to be. | 22:45 |
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| jonwil | There are definatly instances of things being patented that are genuinely innovative and worthy of a patent | 22:46 |
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| fennekki | patents are more useful when the lifetime of your product is more than the lifetime of the patent | 22:48 |
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| fennekki | a patent on a modern technology, especially re handsets, is essentially valid for the entirety of the time you could have competing products | 22:49 |
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| fennekki | So, functionally if not technically, patents are something you use to get money for things others make | 22:51 |
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| fennekki | while simultaneously stifling competition BECAUSE of the licensing fees involved | 22:52 |
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| jonwil | Yeah I agree that software patents are bad | 22:52 |
| jonwil | But like I said, not all patents (even today) are bad | 22:52 |
| jonwil | Look at drug patents, those encourage drug companies to research drugs that wouldn't otherwise get made | 22:52 |
| fennekki | uh. | 22:52 |
| fennekki | I would argue it encourages drug companies to try and profit off things they know they can do before smaller entities can | 22:53 |
| fennekki | it doesn't.. really create USEFUL things, it creates PROFITABLE things | 22:53 |
| fennekki | when those are the same thing, fine | 22:53 |
| fennekki | now you have your useful drug | 22:53 |
| fennekki | it's going to be too expensive to buy for years, so it gets subsidized and big pharma makes $$$ | 22:54 |
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| jonwil | The job of the patent system is (or was intended to be at least) to encourage innovation and the creation of new things by granting their inventors a temporary monopoly | 22:55 |
| fennekki | I know that | 22:55 |
| fennekki | And it's great when it applies to say, some mechanical invention | 22:55 |
| sharpneli | I loved when the MS patent list leaked. The one they used to grab money from Android manufacturers | 22:55 |
| sharpneli | One of their patents was apt-get | 22:55 |
| sharpneli | I really love how some company has the balls to patent something someone else is doing and then sue others with it :D | 22:56 |
| fennekki | sharpneli: that's actually awful | 22:56 |
| fennekki | I mean | 22:56 |
| ninnnu | sharpneli: Which is why it'd be cool if the patent system required the "inventor" to implement it too. | 22:56 |
| fennekki | if it was just "they have the balls to" it'd be amusing | 22:56 |
| fennekki | the awful part is | 22:56 |
| sharpneli | ninnnu: Or would require that it would not describe an existing system | 22:57 |
| fennekki | they could probably succesfully sue | 22:57 |
| tadzik | sharpneli: it does | 22:57 |
| tadzik | it's called Prior Art | 22:57 |
| tadzik | I think | 22:57 |
| fennekki | or if not sue, then pump so much money in that they'd win anyway | 22:57 |
| fennekki | like | 22:57 |
| sharpneli | Sure. But that requires bunch of moniez to prove it | 22:57 |
| fennekki | win at court, I mean | 22:57 |
| tadzik | and the EU patent guys sometimes call companies up on that, like the "swipe to unlock" for apple | 22:57 |
| sharpneli | But yeah. It was not just that patent MS used to sue. It was one amongst like 100 or so | 22:57 |
| fennekki | the EU patent guys are generally better at their job than their US colleagues but they still suck | 22:58 |
| sharpneli | So for an android manufacturer why spend money on invalidating few if you're bound to get caught violating at least one? | 22:58 |
| fennekki | abolishing patents for everything would do more good than harm | 22:58 |
| fennekki | at least we might get ipv6 some day | 22:58 |
| sharpneli | That's why they always use big stack of patents | 22:58 |
| sharpneli | Yeah | 22:58 |
| fennekki | every time I remember patents exist I just kinda | 22:58 |
| fennekki | lose faith in humanity | 22:58 |
| fennekki | and I'm usually really excited about everything | 22:59 |
| fennekki | big companies make me question the necessity of human life | 22:59 |
| ninnnu | fennekki: Big companies have already figured that profits > human life.. | 22:59 |
| jonwil | ninnnu, yes, the patent system should require at the very least some sort of demonstration of the technology. If you have built a new widget that makes jet engines use 50% less fuel, you need to make one. Or at the very least, a prototype, scale model or set of blueprints that would allow anyone skilled in the art to reproduce your patented invention. | 23:00 |
| jonwil | Same with software, if you want to patent software you should be required to show a working example of your software | 23:00 |
| fennekki | jonwil: or a collaboration with someone who can make those | 23:00 |
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| fennekki | basically adding the clause that you need to be able to do it would make patents meaningless for individual innovators whose patents would pretty much just be invalidated | 23:01 |
| sharpneli | fennekki: Patents by individual innovators are useless already | 23:02 |
| fennekki | sharpneli: yeah, I know, unless they want to sell them for a nominal price | 23:02 |
| sharpneli | No individual person has money to sue any big companies | 23:02 |
| sharpneli | Yap | 23:02 |
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| fennekki | but basically because of patents it's impossible to create new electronics or commercial software without infringing on someone's patent | 23:04 |
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| fennekki | there's similar problems with everything labelled "intellectual property" but at least some of those, like copyright, are kind of understandable | 23:04 |
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| fennekki | as in, you can't just take something another individual made and profit off of it without ever mentioning them | 23:05 |
| sharpneli | However the length of the copyright is insane now | 23:05 |
| fennekki | yeah, that | 23:05 |
| sharpneli | I'd go for no patents and 20 year long copyright | 23:05 |
| fennekki | let's write a petition. ha ha ha | 23:05 |
| fennekki | as if petitions ever got anything done | 23:05 |
| sharpneli | We don't have what it takes to sign any petition = Massive amounts of lobbying money. | 23:05 |
| fennekki | no, no, petitions sometimes get dismissed not by the lower bureucratic levels but by the actual relevant parliament too | 23:06 |
| fennekki | to get them to succeed needs an incentive | 23:06 |
| sharpneli | Which means "campaign donations". Which is legalized bribing | 23:07 |
| fennekki | well, yeah, especially in some countries like an unnamed United States of America where you effectively can't run for office without a massive budget | 23:07 |
| fennekki | or | 23:08 |
| fennekki | you know | 23:08 |
| fennekki | anything | 23:08 |
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| fennekki | but basically the economy in the world currently is geared primarily toward making profit for those who make the most profit and secondarily toward the making of changes that allow them to make even more profit | 23:09 |
| fennekki | there IS a solution to this, amusingly enough | 23:09 |
| fennekki | privatise massive corporations | 23:10 |
| fennekki | er | 23:10 |
| fennekki | not privatise | 23:10 |
| fennekki | the opposite | 23:10 |
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| fennekki | at this point a centralised evil one world government would be the lesser evil, honestly | 23:11 |
| fennekki | like, an explicitly evil one | 23:11 |
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| javispedro | nationalization | 23:11 |
| fennekki | Thank you | 23:11 |
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| fennekki | ...looks like I went off-topic a lot | 23:13 |
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| fennekki | guess I'll be quiet for a while and try to forget about the evil things in the world again | 23:13 |
| fennekki | ignorance is bliss | 23:13 |
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| sharpneli | If you cant change the situation it's useless to fret about it. Just adapt. Naturally if an opportunity for change arises one should still take it. | 23:14 |
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| fennekki | Just give me actual innovation, less shit IP laws and manyfold stricter environmental regulations and I'm going to be okay | 23:16 |
| fennekki | Literally, too | 23:16 |
| fennekki | if something isn't done about this climate change thing a few million people are literally going to die because of profit | 23:17 |
| fennekki | wheeeee | 23:17 |
| fennekki | well, other causes of death than climate change too, but you get the point | 23:17 |
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| fennekki | alright, alright, I'll *Actually* leave now | 23:18 |
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