#jollamobile log for Sunday, 2014-10-05

« Saturday, 2014-10-04 Index Monday, 2014-10-06 »
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pdanekDo you agree that Qt develops significantly faster than GTK+? Especially for mobility.00:45
pdanekDO you think KDE will benefit from that in long term? And potentially outperform Gnome?00:45
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pdanekWith outperform I meant get more popular than Gnome. :)00:53
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coderusadded automatically whatsapp token renew on server. now i can die and mitakuuluu continue to work while openrepos server is running :)06:47
Morpog_PC___wooohoo! (or not) :D06:47
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coderus:D07:07
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AL13Nmy 3y old brought a book from library called "moemin"...10:17
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AL13Nhow does one pronounce this? i had this feeling it was finnish or something10:18
friesethose white hippo-like things? in german it's something like "muumin" - i guess thats kinda near the finish pronounciation, but idk10:19
Shinryuuit's called "muumit" here10:21
frieseah okay :)10:22
friesebut yeah, it's finno-swedish i guess10:22
AL13Nstill, i have no idea how to pronounce this, and though it seems the kid is called moem and the parents moem-daddy and moem-mommy10:23
* AL13N doesn't know10:23
Yanielsounds about right10:24
frieseuhm in german it's moominpapa & moominmama, papa => father and mama => mother, maybe it's just translated in english?10:24
frieseanyways, loved these books as a child :)10:25
Shinryuuand here they are 'muumipappa, muumimamma'10:25
Shinryuupappa is more like grandfather and mamma is like mother in some slang way10:25
Shinryuuisä and äiti are the most used ones10:26
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raa700well, Tove Jansson is Finnish-Swedish and in swedish pappa means father10:39
ZotanAL13N: the Moomin books aren't just for kids, you might enjoy them yourself if you haven't already read them.10:43
kimmolimuumilaaksoon....10:45
raa700the original black and white books aren't for kids at all, moomins are bunch of boozers10:45
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raa700*comicbooks10:45
Shinryuuyeah10:46
ShinryuuI'm working on something random again, http://a.pomf.se/dyacsz.jpg -- not Jolla stuff10:46
frieselooks interesting though, diy trackball?10:47
Shinryuuthat trackball is 'CST L-Trac' with jack ports10:48
Shinryuuso you can add extra keys10:48
friesealso: hhkb, awesome :) always wanted one - just for the clean key caps ;)10:48
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Shinryuuhaha10:48
friesebut then again, i think i have a spare set of key caps for my model m here somewhere, maybe i'll mod them a bit ;)10:49
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ShinryuuI need to get a bolt modded IBM M SSK somewhere.. they're rare and expensive10:50
friesehumm yeah, they're quite nice :)10:50
friesethough currently im using an model f, just love that keyboard layout - well except maybe the missing cursor keys :)10:51
Andy80hi guys :)10:52
friesehi Andy8010:52
Andy80any plans/development for a native Telegram client?10:52
frieseuhm, not that i know off...10:52
Andy80the Android version "works", but often notifications are missed if client is closed10:52
Andy80there is a Qt lib in development, from Canonical peopl https://launchpad.net/libqtelegram10:54
Andy80we could use that one :)10:54
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Andy80tanty, yo! :)10:59
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pdanek1Why do you think Unity is so popular? Is it because it's better, or because Ubuntu has switched to it?12:34
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* ggabriel about to ask what is unity :P12:36
AL13Ni'm not sure if it is popular, but then probably the second option...12:38
AL13Nof course, ubuntu isn't that great, it's just popular cause it's over-hyped12:38
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Yanieland actually advertised12:39
pdanek1AL13N: I know Ubuntu was quite bad few years ago when I tried it, but have you tried some of the latest versions? I didn't and wondering if they improved a lot12:39
AL13Nat work, we had a bunch of issues in the past with servers, due to debian 4 not being out yet... we've had lots of packaging errors and since they don't generally upstream stuff, (though i hear they do now), i haven't tried recent stuff12:40
AL13Ni did see my boss install a ubuntu desktop once, but i'm biased since then...12:41
pdanek1Hehe.12:41
AL13Nalso that ubuntu desktop, he couldn't find a terminal12:41
AL13Nso12:41
AL13Nthat's not good for me12:41
pdanek1Unity share is probably over 40%12:41
AL13Nanyway, since i'm using Mageia (which is better and just as user-friendly), i see no need to switch12:41
pdanek1For sure more than Gnome and KDE together.12:42
AL13Nespecially since i've started to contribute to Mageia12:42
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AL13Npdanek1: in ubuntu world, maybe12:42
AL13Nbut isn't unity gnome anyway?12:42
* AL13N doesn't know12:42
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* AL13N used primarily KDE and unless there's a reason to switch, i don't switch12:43
* AL13N looks down on ubuntu since they are still basing on another distro, instead of just clean forking it12:44
pdanek1AL13N: Gnome? No.12:44
AL13N:-)12:44
* AL13N kind of likes QML nowadays12:44
pdanek1Unity is fairly new as I knew and its market share is so big now, because of Ubuntu.12:44
pdanek1So I'm wondering, did it become popular because it's so damn good, or just because Ubuntu has decided to switch to it. :D12:45
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AL13Ni don't care about market shares... IE prolly has more market share... it doesn't mean i need to use it12:45
pdanek1If so, are we doomed to fall into everything that big companies decide us to use?12:45
AL13Npdanek1: i'm still thinking 2nd12:45
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AL13Npdanek1: not really big companies, but the ones who actively advertise12:45
ggabrielwikipedia says that unity runs on gnome...12:45
AL13Nthe big "populous" is doomed, because even though a single human can be smart, "the people" are inherently stupid12:46
pdanek1Oh really.12:46
AL13Nbut not only doomed in DE12:46
AL13Ndoomed in everything12:46
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AL13Nsocial structure, politics, economy, env, DE, etc...12:46
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pdanek1AL13N: Do you have the new Plasma 5? (KDE) Is it amazingly terrific? :D12:47
pdanek1Since Gnome 3 has disappointed me and I also don't believe that GTK+ is the future.12:47
* AL13N thinks that people would be more critical and active and generally better humans, if they had to fight to survive12:48
AL13Nwell, i kinda like the KF system12:48
pdanek1What is KF?12:48
AL13NKDE generally split the KDE into KF and plasma12:48
AL13NKDE-Framework12:48
AL13Nwhich means the KF5 is a few start executables and modules12:48
AL13Nand plasma is themes and UI and stuff (+ apps)12:49
AL13Nthis also means one can have completely QML widgets or stuff12:49
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AL13Nmuch like sailfishOS actually12:49
pdanek1ggabriel: I checked and seems it was on Gnome few years ago, but not anymore.12:49
ggabrielpdanek1: fair enough12:49
AL13Ni've tested it on coming Mageia5 and even though KF5/plasma isn't ready12:50
AL13Nit's gonna be using a lot less resources12:50
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AL13Nand they allow for another UI to use KF512:50
AL13Nnot just plasma512:50
pdanek1Unity is actually in QML too.12:50
AL13Noh gods12:51
pdanek1Even LXDE is moving to Qt, they merged efforts with RazotQt and created LXQt.12:51
AL13Nthink about it, unity on KF5...12:51
* AL13N sighs12:51
AL13Ni've tried LXQT too12:51
pdanek1Opinions vs KDE?12:51
AL13Nthat looks good-ish from a minimalistic pov12:51
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AL13Ni like good integration, so i'm sticking with KDE12:52
pdanek1Because the lightweight nature of DE is not relevant anymore with our HW accelerations etc.12:52
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AL13Nfor now, i'm sticking to KDE412:52
AL13Ni'll probably be trying plasma5 for my media box though12:53
pdanek1AL13N: Why Mageia and not OpenSUSE?12:53
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AL13Ncause i started Mandrake a bunch of years ago, and was thinking of giving back still in Mandriva... so when the fork happend, i moved over with all the others13:03
AL13Ncause Mandriva is like almost dead13:03
AL13Nand i used that cause, stuff worked, and i didn't lose time on getting it set up as i liked13:03
AL13Nfuthermore Mageia is completely community, no company13:03
AL13Nwhich is a plus13:03
AL13Nand OpenSuse, i've had too much shit with yast in the past13:04
AL13Nalso at work, i've had to fix a suse machine and it sucked13:04
pdanek1hehe13:04
pdanek1but you don't have to use yast, do you?13:04
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AL13Nso, i kinda started contributing to Mageia ever since it's birth13:05
pdanek1I find OpenSUSE better than RHEL and Fedora.13:05
pdanek1I see.13:05
AL13Npdanek1: not sure if it's yast itself, or the hardware management stuff13:05
AL13Npdanek1: don't get me wrong, i kinda find that too13:05
pdanek1So if you are not developer and you're just Linux desktop user.13:05
AL13Nbut it's just fedora is immensely unstable13:05
pdanek1And you want something with KDE13:05
AL13Nnot necessarily13:06
pdanek1Would you choose OpenSUSE or Mageia?13:06
AL13Nbut Mageia has ALL DE's i think13:06
AL13Nand i'm a SA at work13:06
AL13Nso i'm using debian and RHEL servers13:06
AL13Nand at home, i'm a really a developer, and getting more into QML13:06
AL13Nand i'm in packaging team for Mageia13:06
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pdanek1Me mostly RHEL servers and SLES... but mainly IBM AIX.13:06
AL13Nso, of course, i'll pick Mageia over OpenSuse13:07
AL13Nopensuse is good-ish in getting stuff that works OoTB13:07
pdanek1I thought Mageia is the same.13:07
AL13Nbut it's still not better than Mageia, cause with opensuse you can have these conflicts of 2 packages that work independently well13:07
pdanek1Providing out of the box experience like Ubuntu does.13:07
AL13Nyes13:08
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AL13Nif i was thinking OOTB for desktop functionality, i'd go: Mageia > Opensuse > Fedora > Ubuntu13:09
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AL13Nimho13:09
pdanek1So Ubuntu not out of the box at all? :D13:09
pdanek1I thought it's supposed to be exactly that.13:10
AL13Nyes, but it's not really QAing stuff well13:10
AL13Nimho13:10
AL13Nor at least in the past13:10
AL13None more thing that i like in Mageia, is that you don't need all these extra repositories13:10
pdanek1Like testing etc.?13:11
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pdanek1Or you mean community repos like in Arch Linux?13:11
pdanek1Or like EPEL.13:12
AL13Nyes, like epel and community repos13:13
AL13Nin Mageia it's like this: we ARE a community13:13
AL13Nso, why should we have seperate community repos???13:14
AL13Nit makes no sense13:14
AL13Ni mean, if it's legal to distribute without restrictions, it's pretty much a go to package something13:14
pdanek1What about external support? Those big names like Valve's Steam and so on. Do they package for Mageia already? Because it's quite new (since Mandriva died).13:14
AL13NMageia has steam13:14
AL13Nit works OOTB13:14
AL13Nmy collegue at work, started to use Mageia, because Steam worked OOTB and ubuntu got issues13:15
pdanek1Because I have slept last few years and just used my business RHEL desktop.13:15
pdanek1And it seems Mageia is doing well. :)13:15
AL13NRHEL as desktop... eek13:15
pdanek1I should try out.13:15
pdanek1Company rules.13:15
AL13Nif you don't have EPEL... you're really crippled13:15
AL13Nright13:15
pdanek1We have EPEL.13:16
KiranosHow easy is nvidia drivers propitiary to install and setup for multiple screens? Ubuntu is very good at handling these drivers13:16
AL13Ni work at a linux firm and we have standardisation for servers13:16
AL13Nbut our desktops are our choice13:16
AL13Nwe have one that distro-hops13:16
AL13Ni think he's at arch now, or got back to opensuse13:16
AL13Nwe had a gentoo one before13:16
AL13NKiranos: for mageia it's a question at install time... proprietary or open source?13:17
AL13Nthat's about it13:17
pdanek1Good stuff.13:17
KiranosCool nice might try it out using kubuntu now13:18
pdanek1Btw, are you French?13:18
AL13Nalso, no default DE13:18
AL13Nnope13:18
AL13Nyou get a choice during install time13:18
AL13N(or you have seperate gnome and KDE iso's)13:18
AL13Nbut i think we might have (almost) all DE's?13:18
* AL13N is unsure13:19
AL13NXFCE, LXDE, enlightment, KDE. gnome, cinnamon, mate, etc...13:19
pdanek1I have tried Arch, Gentoo, Ubuntu/Xubuntu/Kubuntu (who the hell thought of changing the names... argh), Debian, Fedora, RHEL, Mint13:20
pdanek1In the past it seemed OK to play with distro, but now I want desktop that works and only gives me the choice to play with it, doesn't enforce.13:20
pdanek1Fedora is too unstable as you said, Ubuntu I never really liked, Debian more for servers... also I prefer RPM kind of.13:21
pdanek1Mint... meh13:21
pdanek1So my next stop is either OpenSUSE or Mageia, yesterday I was almost sure OpenSUSE it will be, since I didn't really know anything about Mageia.13:21
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AL13Ni guess i can talk bullshit forever, you'll just have to try it13:22
AL13Nor both13:22
pdanek1yes13:22
pdanek1Most importantly I'm soo excited to get rid of the RHEL desktop finally. :D13:22
AL13Nat home, i have mageia on my desktop, laptop, my firewall, my media box13:22
pdanek1Firewall? Why?13:22
AL13Npdanek1: before you get systemd issyues :-)13:22
AL13Npdanek1: why not?13:23
pdanek1I don't know why not.13:23
AL13Npdanek1: firewall, but also has pxe installers and stuff13:23
AL13Ni've been helping out at getting minimal installs really minimal13:23
pdanek1We should make a poll for Sailfish users, which desktop OS do they use.13:23
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AL13Nmeh13:24
pdanek1Btw, Mageia seems to do well on distrowatch..13:25
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AL13Nwell, not like distrowatch actually has good statistics13:25
AL13Nor i mean, it's good, but not really accurate for market share13:26
pdanek1How do they measure it?13:26
AL13Ni have no idea13:26
AL13Nbut they have a FAQ about it13:26
AL13Ni think13:26
AL13Ni read something like that before13:26
AL13Nlately, i've been listening to RPG actual play podcasts13:27
AL13Nit's like listing to people building a story together, with all the funny banter...13:28
pdanek1thx for tip!13:29
AL13Nand it's not like it's predictable13:29
AL13Ncause if they roll bad, the story goes to another direction13:29
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YanielAL13N: where'd you find those?13:30
AL13Nwell, like 5y ago, i liked Apocalypse Engine, but that site seems down now13:31
AL13Nthough that was the best one13:31
AL13Nright now, i'm using gamerstable and the walking eye13:31
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AL13Nhttp://gamerstable.com/openly-gamer-theatre-2/13:31
pdanek1another soul here! Yaniel: short Q, what OS or distro do you use?13:31
AL13Nhttp://www.thewalkingeye.com/13:31
Yanielin current order of activity: OSX 10.9, Arch Linux, Win713:32
AL13NApocalypse world Actual play was nice13:32
AL13Nin the walking eye, there's this girl Jen13:32
AL13Nand she's like my inspiration13:33
AL13Nfor all the torture13:33
pdanek1Yaniel: What DE on Arch?13:33
AL13Ni have immense respect for her13:33
Yanielno DE, just awesome13:33
AL13Noh13:33
AL13Ni've used awesome before13:33
AL13Non a media box with 2 screens13:33
YanielI try out enlightenment occasionally13:33
AL13Nso there could be 2 browsers open, because it was connected to 2 TVs13:33
AL13NYaniel: http://www.thewalkingeye.com/?cat=490 <-- this13:34
Yanielnice13:34
AL13Nseriously, they had to Veil a scene, because she was making some people uncomfortable with all the torture13:36
AL13Nit was awesome13:37
AL13Ni started to skip the first episode though, because of the character building13:37
Yanielgtg13:38
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krnlynghi, where are contacts located? i copied .local and .vault back to /home/nemo after a factory reset but my contacts are missing :(14:00
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raa700~/.vault/People/data/all.vcf14:19
raa700should be14:19
raa700if you've made backup of them14:19
krnlyngraa700: and if i didn't? i made a backup of the entire home partition14:20
raa700dunno then14:22
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pdanek1Wasn't MeeGo supposed to use Zypper originally?15:07
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pdanek1Back then when Nokia and Intel joined the efforts and IRC wars started to choose package format?15:08
Dottimeego used zypper15:11
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pdanek1Why Sailfish doesn't use Zypper?15:11
pdanek1Any particular reason?15:11
w00tit more or less does (via libzypp)15:13
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louisdkw00t, but "zypper" isn't installed by default. You're recommended to use pkcon.15:40
w00tlouisdk: zypper is a frontend for libzypp. the pkcon backend we use uses libzypp.15:40
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pdanekAnother offtopic question today!16:32
pdanekSLES or RHEL? Which one would you choose and why?16:32
M4rtinKRHEL16:34
M4rtinKbecause I like it :)16:34
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pdanek:)16:42
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pdanekAL13N: You should give OpenSUSE another chance ;) new released in 1 month16:58
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Nicd-pdanek: arch linux master race17:06
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giucam+1 for arch :)17:16
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Gordon`I17:35
Gordon`Hi*17:35
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Gordon`I have a quite serious problem with my Jolla: the internal storage seems unable to write any data anymore…17:36
TemeVhey, talk about linux distros. I was just wondering which one I should install on my desktop17:36
Gordon`this is what “df” says that about the /home mountpoint:17:37
Gordon`/dev/mmcblk0p28       14415852  14096020      3780 100% /home17:37
TemeVI currently have arch, but I'm gettin tired of setting up evertyhing manually17:37
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Gordon`but a “du -s /home” says “3454732 /home”17:37
louisdkHave anyone ever successfully put a screen protector on a smartphones and gotten rid of all the air bobbles. It's pretty hard. Saw someone CNET used tape to lift the protector and another piece of tape to remove the dust.17:37
Nicd-Gordon`: how did you fill it? :o17:38
Gordon`and Nicd- it isn’t filled… the du command says that about 3GB of data is stored on /home, and this looks like the amount of data I stored on /home17:38
Gordon`a “df -i /home” says that:17:39
Gordon`/dev/mmcblk0p28            0       0       0    -  /home17:39
Gordon`I believe this is a problem: my partition cannot have 0 inodes17:39
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Nicd-sounds really strange17:40
Nicd-what does 'btrfs fi show' say?17:40
Gordon`→ http://files.gordon.re/jolla-inode-error17:41
Gordon`/dev/mmcblk1 is my micro-SD card17:41
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Nicd-seems your btrfs is full17:43
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Gordon`how can I see or free that amount of data?17:44
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Nicd-Gordon`: see https://together.jolla.com/question/30822/root-and-home-disks-full-and-causing-various-problems/17:45
Nicd-but do backup everything before you do anything17:45
Gordon`thanks17:45
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r0kk3rz_seems ive fixed the reboots without any chemicals.18:04
r0kk3rz_just gently grind the battery against the terminals a couple of times18:04
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pdanek1Hmm21:06
pdanek1Seems that Sailfish is closest to OpenSUSE.21:07
pdanek1It's not based on any distro, but similar to OpenSUSE.21:07
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fennekkiisn't it based on Mer21:07
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fennekkiNemo/Mer21:07
pdanek1Of course.21:07
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fennekkithat is a distribution21:07
fennekkinot a desktop one, though21:07
aard_pdanek: well, we're using rpm and zypper. that's about it21:08
aard_even package selection on top of zypper is done in a different way21:08
pdanekSo if you have to choose the closests desktop distro.21:08
pdanekWhat would it be?21:09
fennekkipdanek: that's kind of a pointless thing to consider. What is the parent distro of Debian?21:09
M4rtinKwell, I think it is at least in part influenced by OpenSUSE also using OBS21:09
aard_not really possible. some packaging is oriented on fedora, some on opensuse, some completely or own21:09
M4rtinKso it is easy to pull packages directly from OpenSUSE OBS to the Mer OBS instance21:10
aard_M4rtinK: we are way ahead of opensuse in the way we're using obs21:10
M4rtinKaard_: well, but they have newer OBS :)21:10
aard_M4rtinK: well, we've had experience building arm on obs years before they thought about starting an opensuse arm distribution. and they were not interested in our knowhow21:11
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aard_also we have the whole boss bits + source services and webhooks21:11
M4rtinKinteresting :)21:11
aard_I'm using the opensuse obs for some desktop packaging for my computers, and I'm always getting very annoyed when I need to change my packages there21:11
aard_also version switching of opensuse by editing the version in _all_ repo files just feels so antiquated21:12
pdanekRight.21:12
M4rtinKBTW, something similar is also being assembled in Fedora, bit by bit (Koji build system enhancements, FEDMSG message bus, COPR personal repos, review server, Taskotron test automation, ...)21:13
M4rtinKoh, and we have badges! :D21:13
aard_M4rtinK: well, the nice part about how we're doing things here is that you can use the review functionality of your favourite git hoster21:13
M4rtinKhttps://badges.fedoraproject.org/user/m4rtink21:13
aard_the branching/merging and review functions in obs are shit, git is doing a way better job at that21:14
pdanekI haven't used OpenSUSE yet (only SLES), but I have used Fedora and I know a lot of people from Fedora community.21:14
pdanekDo you think OpenSUSE community is better?21:14
pdanekFedora guys seemed to be too pro-Red Hat sometimes21:14
M4rtinKaard_: well, I consider that a separate thing to package review21:14
fennekkiHow can fedora guys be "too pro- Red Hat"21:14
pdanek:D21:15
pdanekDon't know.21:15
aard_M4rtinK: it's not, as our packages live in git as well21:15
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M4rtinKwell, quite a lot of people in the community are working for Red Hat :)21:15
fennekkiaard_: not the binaries, I hope?21:15
fennekkiGit is rather terrible with blobs21:15
aard_pdanek: desktop distribution is just a tool for me, so I'm not really getting involved in any community activity. I'm just using the opensuse obs with some home projects to build my stuff wihch is not included in the distribution21:16
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M4rtinKwell, we also have them in Git: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_maintenance_guide?rd=Using_Fedora_GIT21:17
aard_fennekki: for projects where we are uptream, source + packaging lives there. for projects where we're not upstream, a reference to the upstream sources + packaging lives there. has the nice side effect of not having to manage rpm patches, you just carry them in the git tree, and can easily rebase on upstream updates. the whole thing then gets packaged by a source service and builds on obs21:17
pdanekI guess desktop Linux lost the traction because it's hard to be competitive there.21:17
pdanekMobile market has far more potential.21:17
pdanekWhere do you see Sailfish in 5 years?21:18
pdanek5% market share?21:18
M4rtinKeach fedora package has a dist-git repo Fedora that holds a spec file, any patches and a reference to the source tarball, which is stored separately21:18
aard_pdanek: I showed you my desktop before. I basically care about something that boots up to a ui managing one browser window, one or two emacs frames, and a bunch of terminals21:18
M4rtinKas already mentioned Git is not good with blobs :)21:18
pdanekyea21:19
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fennekkispeaking of text editors, neovim seems interesting and might be worth changing to at some point21:20
M4rtinKwe have branches for different releases (f19, f20, f21, rawhide/master, epel, etc.)21:20
aard_M4rtinK: that's not the best way to do it21:20
M4rtinKand there is the fedpkg tool that is just a thin wrapper above git21:20
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M4rtinKand adds stuff like building/scratch building the given repo or submitting updates to community QA (Bodhi), etc.21:21
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M4rtinKaard_: sure, there is definitely room for improvement :)21:21
M4rtinKaard_: feedback welcome :)21:21
aard_M4rtinK: most of our packages now use git subtree, that allows you to keep packaging + upstream source (both if upstream is git or something else, git just is a bit more comfortable) in the same git repository21:22
M4rtinKbut it already works quite nicely from my experience21:22
aard_your patches are just in git as well, which means on update you just rebase inside git, with a lot less work than manual patching21:22
M4rtinKwell, the patches are also in dist-git, but you indeed need to supply a new tarball if you rebase21:23
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aard_actually 'patches' might be the wrong word here, basically you have one (or more) branches tracking upstream (git, tarballs, whatever), and additional branches adding your modifications + packaging21:24
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M4rtinKI think that the tracking branch is similar to our "master" branch that builds packages directly to Rawhide without any QA checks :)21:27
M4rtinKand then you usually have branches for some of the stable/development Fedora releases where you have the packaging (spec + patches) & reference to a tarball21:28
M4rtinKso the biggest difference looks like that we have tarballs instead of subtrees :)21:29
aard_yes, and that part imo does not make really sense when you're hacking in git anyways21:30
M4rtinKwell, I'll have to ask the guys maintaining it the next time I meet them :)21:31
M4rtinKbut could be for historic reasons - before git it was based on CVS :)21:32
M4rtinKso might be a bit more conservative21:32
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M4rtinKor maybe some scaling considerations - tarballs might be easier to store/check space usage than randomly growing git trees21:33
M4rtinKand last thing that comes to my mind is robustness and build reproductibility - build root + spec + patches + tarball = build21:34
aard_who needs to check space with current disk prices? :p21:34
M4rtinKwith git checkout it might be a bit more complicated21:34
aard_you can reproduce the build from git as well21:34
M4rtinKwell, yeah21:34
aard_for projects where we import the tarball we can actually get the same tarball out of git again, if we want21:35
M4rtinKI guess it might be possible to hack support for this to the current system :)21:36
M4rtinKyou would just reference some git tag or has instead of a tarball21:36
M4rtinK*hash21:36
aard_yes, both is supported in our case, though we only do automatic build trigger on tags21:36
M4rtinKBTW, there is a funny thing21:37
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M4rtinKAFAIK there are no automatic builds in the Fedora build system :)21:38
aard_well, a big part of our changes is our own code, so we want to have as little as possible work there. so you hack, get it merged, tag, and it builds21:38
aard_using the tag as new version number, so you don't even need to touch the spec file usually21:39
M4rtinKthat sure is handy :)21:39
M4rtinKit could be that some packagers have it setup like this21:39
M4rtinKbut nothing widely used as far as I can tell21:39
M4rtinKalso no automatic rebuilds like OBS has21:40
aard_+ you don't even need to maintain a changes file. if you have something like '[foo] this might be relevant for the release team to figure out what I did' in your commit message this'll end up in the package changelog21:41
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M4rtinKwe have something similar - you can add a bug number to the header (#123456)21:42
M4rtinKor after the commit message if more bugs are fixed or related21:43
M4rtinKeq. Related: rhbz#123456 Resolves: rhbz#12345621:43
M4rtinKit serves both for developers (you can reference commits to bugs)21:44
aard_for internal code there must be a bug reference in the changelog, though I'll get angry if you don't add a short comment what you did there as well21:44
M4rtinKand automated tools make use of it21:44
M4rtinKsure, no shitty commit messages allowed :)21:45
M4rtinKwe actually do all our code review for the Anaconda installer on a public mailing list kernel-style21:45
M4rtinKone more reason to make it looks nice and informative21:46
M4rtinKanother is that you will be maintaining the code for (many) years to come, so it should be nice :)21:47
* aard_ refrains from commenting about 'fedora installer'21:47
M4rtinKwell, I'm open to any suggestions for improvement and feedback21:48
aard_well, it would be helpful for a successful installation if the installer would start21:48
M4rtinKindeed _21:49
M4rtinKwhat installation type were you trying ?21:49
aard_first usb, and after that didn't work, CD21:49
M4rtinKBIOS or UEFI ?21:49
aard_bios21:49
aard_usb don't remember what went wrong, but blew up in interesting ways very early. from cd I had a black screen with a mouse cursor21:50
M4rtinKand did you get at least to the boot menu (usually has one install & one check media & install option)21:50
M4rtinKwell, that's actually halfway there :)21:51
aard_usb iirc blew up with error messages trying to load the boot menu, cd probably went through, got me the black screen, and then nothing21:51
M4rtinKbootloader->initrd (Dracut)->stage2 (GUI/TUI installer)21:51
M4rtinKdo you remember which tool did you use for making the USB ?21:52
aard_no21:52
M4rtinKsome are notoriously bad21:52
M4rtinKlike Unetbootin or generic make-bootable-sub tools on windows21:52
M4rtinK*make-bootable-usb21:52
M4rtinKthat might explain the USB thing21:52
aard_I'm used to just dding a iso to usb, but iirc that didn't work, so I spent sime time installing some tool (which I don't remember, but was recommended on some fedora page) which didn't work in the end as well21:53
M4rtinKas for the CD black screen, that indeed looks like our fault21:53
aard_tbh, if I can't just dd your installer to a usb stick it's broken21:53
M4rtinKactually I think dd should work21:54
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M4rtinKsu -c "dd if=/Users/me/Downloads/Fedora-Live-Desktop-x86_64-20-1.iso of=/dev/sdX bs=8M"21:55
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M4rtinKlooking at the docs (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_and_use_Live_USB#Command_line_method:_Using_the_livecd-iso-to-disk_tool_.28Fedora_only.2C_non-graphical.2C_both_non-destructive_and_destructive_methods_available.29)21:55
aard_yes, didn't work21:56
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M4rtinKBTW, was it a live or netinst medium ?21:56
M4rtinKalso, which version ? :)21:57
aard_just checked the irc-log back then, we wanted to set up some computers in similar ways, so I was discussing with a colleague (and that's the only reason why I didn't just walk away after 5 minutes)21:57
aard_the part where it went up to black screen had "error running metacity; sigchld caught when trying to start the X server" on a tty21:57
aard_and somewhere was an option to select basic graphics, which when selected ended in "Invalid or corrupt kernel image"21:58
M4rtinKnot sure about the basic graphic option21:59
aard_was on february 25th, whatever was released at that point. tried both netinst and live cds, verified iso, wrote each two times and verified the cds, tried installation on two different computers21:59
aard_alltogether spent about 4 hours just to conclude that it's utterly broken, and no point in trying21:59
M4rtinKthat would be F20, which is still the current stable version21:59
M4rtinKso that means we are doing quite a bad job :P22:00
M4rtinKespecially if it it happens on different hardware22:01
aard_even used a debian rescue disk in between to get rid of the lvm on the disk and tried without partitions or some standard partition set in case it's the partitioner barfing22:01
aard_thinkpad x60 and thinkpad x20022:01
aard_tried with cd connected via usb, and cd connected via sata in ultrabase22:01
M4rtinKpartitioning errors would look different and would show up much later22:02
M4rtinKand I have seen the error you mention22:02
aard_I was getting desperate :p22:03
M4rtinKit can mean basically two things - graphics dying for some reason (which would be pretty weird on X200, I have a X220)22:03
aard_it was the first time in almost 20 years of linux that I didn't manage to get even the installer up. and I've had to work on pretty exotic hardware over the years :p22:04
M4rtinKor a race condition during X/metacity/Anaconda startup22:04
M4rtinKyou don't need to tell me about exotic hardware :)22:04
M4rtinKwe support S390 & PPC :)22:04
M4rtinK_THAT_ is where the fun begins :)22:05
aard_done both22:05
tigeliI had to setup pxe/tftp/dhcp on my laptop to get my mother-in-law's laptop's xp replaced with linux few months ago.. no usb-boot, nothing :D22:06
M4rtinKlike the S390 terminal that is basically a virtual line printer that can't go back :)22:06
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M4rtinKand our TUI can work on that :)22:06
aard_M4rtinK: maybe let the guys working on that fix the x86 installer...? :p22:08
M4rtinKaard_: anyway, if you had any logs left from your attempt or still wanted to give it a try we would be definitely interested in the logs :)22:08
M4rtinKaard_: they are all in /tmp during the installation22:08
aard_not really, I ended up installing mint, and I'm probably done with fedora for a few years22:09
M4rtinKno problem :)22:09
M4rtinKand thanks for the constructive feedback :)22:10
aard_I ended that session back then by making sure I removed all isos, snapped the cds, and rewrote the usb stick to at least get rid of some of my frustration for wasted time22:10
M4rtinKI can't even count the number of "Fedora/Anaconda BAD!" but no feedback if you ask what's wrong...22:11
aard_I'm not really surprised about that. if it blows up at that level without any useful debugging hints it's not even worth the trouble to go to you guys and tell you it's wrong, and without the irclog I'd probably just have said "ugh, it's bad" as well22:12
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M4rtinKthis is one of the nasty failure cases - if GUI startup fails halfway in22:13
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M4rtinKwe can usually detect if it fails outright and switch to TUI22:14
M4rtinKbut you case looks like it bombed out mid-way, leaving the system with black screen22:15
M4rtinKworks is only if it does not boot at all or dumps you in initrd shell22:15
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aard_it should be possible to figure out if ui startup fails in between, and then just make sure that it fails hard, and drop to a terminal22:17
aard_and at least add some information in the terminal where I can find debug output / how I can try to figure out what's wrong. or (better), how I can manually force it from there into a tui installer22:17
aard_that was the next problem, that I didn't find any usable info how to go from that state22:17
M4rtinKthat's a good point22:18
M4rtinKthere should be a TMUX running on TTY122:19
aard_and again: the only reason why I spent more than 5 minutes on that was that I was working with others, and we tried to get a consistent setup over several computers. that's probably the amount of time the people going "it's bad" are willing to spend there as well22:19
M4rtinKcurrently it has something like "starting Anaconda <version>" on the default pane22:19
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aard_the only thing I found anywhere was the above message (probably including that starting, didn't note it as it's not really relevant)22:19
M4rtinKit would be easy to add something like "if you see a black screen, try to use TUI or check the logs in /tmp"22:20
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M4rtinKwell, a black screen is definitely not the planed outcome :)22:20
aard_how do I get to tui? I couldn't figure out how to start in a text only installer (apart from the option I mentioned above in the boot menu, which barfed while loading the kernel image)22:21
M4rtinKyou just add "text" to the boot commandline22:21
M4rtinKin the boot menu22:21
M4rtinK(but there are of course many other options: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda_Boot_Options)22:22
M4rtinKlooks like this: https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/7/html/Installation_Guide/images/preinstallhub/preinstall_hub_txt.png22:23
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aard_ok, that page is not really what you want to go through completely if you just want to have a text installer. I might have even been there, and gave up as it's a pretty long read for something simple22:24
M4rtinKI like your idea about the "banner" on TTY :)22:24
aard_well, it's what others have been doing for 10 years or so :p22:24
M4rtinKthat might indeed help22:25
M4rtinKand should make it to F21 :)22:25
aard_will the text be blue?22:26
M4rtinKon TTY ?22:26
aard_yes22:26
aard_http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTc4NjkwMTQ0Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMTI1Mjg4NA@@._V1_SX214_AL_.jpg :p22:26
M4rtinKwell, a nice BSOD style screen would be doable22:26
M4rtinKbut I would be afraid about design patents22:26
M4rtinK:)22:27
aard_na, I just meant the text, not the background22:27
* aard_ likes placing subtle references nobody ever will get22:27
M4rtinKso far we did not bother with colors for the TUI22:28
M4rtinKbut it would be possible if we can reliably detect dumb terminals that don't support it22:29
M4rtinKcould help even to the regular TUI readability :)22:29
M4rtinKsee, another idea :)22:29
M4rtinKthis "debugging" session is very fruitful ! :)22:30
aard_where should I send the consultant bill? :)22:31
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M4rtinKwell, I can get you a new F20 DVD :)22:33
M4rtinKand a 3D printed Fedora logo22:34
M4rtinKdeal ? :)22:34
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aard_the logo sounds interesting :p22:36
aard_you actually still make proper dvds, or just "write it yourself" stuff?22:36
M4rtinKwe still have proper factory made DVDs22:38
aard_interesting. wasn't expecting that22:38
M4rtinKand they are distributed to the whole EMEA from our local Red Hat office  in Brno22:38
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aard_I think it was the first time ever I used the cd writer in my workstation when the usb boot failed. and the drives for the notebook I first had to search in some box with old hardware22:39
M4rtinKit is a bundle of long paper boxes, each with a couple hundred DVDs22:40
M4rtinKand you need to move it on a dolly to get it to the office :)22:40
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aard_how many people actually use that?22:40
aard_if somebody gives me a cd I usually just go "ok. and how exactly am I supposed to get to the data on there?"22:40
M4rtinKand a coworker handles the distribution :)22:40
M4rtinKwell, there are still users of slightly older hardware that have DVD drives22:41
lpotteraard_: magic marker22:42
aard_lpotter: I tried using cds as sticky notes, but noticed that they suck at sticking22:42
M4rtinKI guess it could be handy in schools, community centers, etc.22:42
lpotterharddrive platters make cool wind chimes22:42
M4rtinKsome of these places where these go (individual Fedora user groups and ambasadors send request and get baoxes with DVDs, Fedora t-shirt,stickers etc.) don't have advanced infrastructure or fast internet22:43
aard_M4rtinK: my x60 is now over 8 years old. when I bought it cds and dvds already were some kind of obscure artifact from a different time. what kind of ancient hardware are you targeting? :p22:44
M4rtinKwell, you need just one DVD drive :)22:44
M4rtinKan external one22:44
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M4rtinKor you can dd the DVD to USB stick22:44
M4rtinKor even use the DVD as a repository22:45
aard_...which I can't find when I need it, because the last time  I needed it was 3+ years ago22:45
M4rtinK(there are some really crazy ways how to install Fedora)22:45
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M4rtinKwe can boot with a small boot iso and mount the stage2 from a file on NFs for example22:46
M4rtinK*NFS22:46
aard_is there a distribution not supporting that?22:47
M4rtinKwell, it isn't that special of a feature :)22:48
aard_http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures <- you never supported alpha?22:48
M4rtinKwhy support Alpha when you have Itanic! :D22:49
aard_because I have two alpha boxes, and 0 itanic boxes :p22:49
aard_and no sparc support anymore. for powerpc I need to get a working psu again, but I doubt you'd support that old box anyway22:50
M4rtinKlooks like we do Power5+22:51
aard_I have an old rs600022:52
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M4rtinKhmm, that looks to be only up to POWER2 in some models22:53
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M4rtinKbut look at it from the bright side - you can finally start with LFS! :)22:56
aard_I stopped building my custom distribution somewhere in 200422:56
M4rtinKwell, you are kinda back at it with Sailfish OS :)22:57
aard_I mean as in "without getting paid for it"22:57
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M4rtinKyeah, that's an important detail :)22:58
M4rtinKBTW, looks like you are not the only one with the black screen bug:22:59
M4rtinKhttps://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?format=multiple&id=86260222:59
M4rtinKlooks like it has been there from at least F1822:59
aard_yes, iirc my colleague noted that somebody had this issue with f18 back then22:59
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M4rtinKbut that bugreport looks like it was in a VM23:02
M4rtinKbut you had it on baremetal with verified DVD & reproducible (so not a one-in-a-while race)23:03
M4rtinK*once23:04
aard_like I said earlier, I'd assume several of the people just saying "anaconda sucks" (or just going away without saying anything) had similar experiences23:07
M4rtinKyes, that is unfortunately quite probable23:07
M4rtinKanyway, time to call it a day :)23:12
aard_same here23:12
M4rtinKI need to get up early tomorrow to implement your idea :)23:12
aard_you're only allowed to work on that early? ;)23:12
M4rtinKI just wanted it to sound lofty :D23:13
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M4rtinKanyway, good night :)23:15
M4rtinKand thanks for the feedback! :)23:15
aard_good night23:15
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