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| coderus | if anyone have/have friend with root-unlocked WP device please ping me | 04:54 |
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| m4g0g | hi | 06:36 |
| m4g0g | This night I tried to install new kitkat google services. I installed them successfully, but google play stops working and services doesn't updated. May somebody has successfull experience in it? | 06:37 |
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| pdanek | Good day everyone! Selling QWERTY other half. | 08:49 |
| Nicd- | :o | 08:50 |
| mikma | not a place for that | 08:50 |
| ggabriel | pdanek: just go to tmo | 08:51 |
| pdanek | :D | 08:51 |
| pdanek | At least I could say good day to everyone. ;) | 08:51 |
| ggabriel | somebody wanted to buy #sync yesterday too | 08:51 |
| ggabriel | good day to yo utoo :) | 08:51 |
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| iekku | :D | 08:59 |
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| faenil | https://www.facebook.com/jollaofficial/photos/a.489914591060089.120975.324048634313353/753561581362054/?type=1 | 10:37 |
| faenil | New price tag for Jolla later today! | 10:38 |
| Nicd- | ooh | 10:38 |
| Nicd- | 599 €! | 10:39 |
| Nicd- | ;) | 10:39 |
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| pp | 399 -> 389 already seems standard | 10:42 |
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| pdanek | Google is going to put 180 smaller satellites to lower orbit. | 11:02 |
| pdanek | To speed up the internet in 3rd world countries. | 11:02 |
| sharpneli | A network in sky. A skynet, if you will. | 11:02 |
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| pdanek | yes, Terminator begun here. | 11:03 |
| pdanek | beginning of the end | 11:03 |
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| gexc | will terminator powered by android? | 11:06 |
| pdanek | Sure, in the movie it was made by Skynet, so for sure. | 11:09 |
| pdanek | Everything fits together now. | 11:10 |
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| pdanek | I will start digging a hole in the forest, to hide. | 11:11 |
| pdanek | 1) Satellite intetnet in the sky -> Skynet (Skynet made terminator) 2) Smartphone OS name? Android! no comment... 3) AI car driving? 4) Recent Google investments in advanced robotics? | 11:13 |
| pdanek | Everything fits together now... | 11:13 |
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| pdanek | Only those with Jolla will survive. | 11:13 |
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| pdanek | All other Android phones will replicate to small assassin robots. | 11:14 |
| SK_work | pdanek: what about iOS ? | 11:14 |
| pdanek | iOS are sheeps, Google will send an agent between iOS users who will jump from the hill. | 11:15 |
| pdanek | And all others will jump from the hill.... problem solved. | 11:15 |
| SK_work | :' | 11:15 |
| SK_work | :( | 11:15 |
| SK_work | and windows ? | 11:15 |
| SK_work | will they jump out of the window ? | 11:15 |
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| pdanek | Not sure about that, I'd say Google will buy M$. | 11:16 |
| Stskeeps | release a virus, by which owning a jolla is only antidote? | 11:16 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:16 |
| pdanek | :D | 11:16 |
| pdanek | Windows Phone users have little hope still, but only those who run on Lumia! | 11:16 |
| pdanek | Ok... gonna dig the hole now. | 11:17 |
| pdanek | Laters. (hopefully) | 11:17 |
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| Quu | diggy diggy hole | 11:18 |
| SpeedEvil | And alleged Tizen release. | 11:20 |
| pp | it'll only be in IVI systems. | 11:22 |
| pp | Vehicles, satellites. Skynet. | 11:22 |
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| __pv | damnit, again a random shutdown (paper under battery, weak 3G. differs from previous random shutdowns by the red light being lit while shutdown rather than the phone just dying...) | 11:34 |
| Stskeeps | contact care | 11:34 |
| Stskeeps | and that might simply be misread battery level, fwiw | 11:35 |
| __pv | thanks, will do that if it happens again. just wanted to vent :) | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | i'd contact before it happens again | 11:36 |
| Yaniel | so I'm going on a lenthy trip in a couple of days and media player still does not find anything from the sd card | 11:41 |
| Yaniel | should I expect the next update to be out in time and fix it or just do a factory reset | 11:41 |
| SK_work | Yaniel: where did you put your media ? | 11:41 |
| SK_work | I have a fat32 formatted SD, and music put inside subfolders in <sdroot>/Music/ | 11:42 |
| Yaniel | same here except that it is btrfs | 11:42 |
| SK_work | Yaniel: hum ... | 11:42 |
| Yaniel | but that should not change anything since it shows up just right in cargodock and via fingerterm | 11:42 |
| Yaniel | anyway it seems tracker does not index it at all anymore | 11:43 |
| Yaniel | it worked just fine earlier | 11:43 |
| SK_work | Yaniel: :( | 11:43 |
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| phaeron | Yaniel: nothing changed there -> it should work. | 11:46 |
| phaeron | Yaniel: did you check permissions ? | 11:46 |
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| Yaniel | yes and they look okay | 12:04 |
| Yaniel | nemo:nemo rwxrwx--- for everything on the card | 12:04 |
| Yaniel | and root:root 777 for the card itself | 12:04 |
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| Sailor356 | hi i have a problem with openvpn on my jolla. when i connect to the vpn server my wifi and mobile data not working correct. | 12:28 |
| flux | doesn't sound to me it's particularly related to jolla, rather than the openvpn configuration? | 12:29 |
| Sailor356 | on my pc all working fine | 12:30 |
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| Sailor356 | when i use it on my jolla and i browse a website there pop up a window what connection type should be used. wifi not working. mobile data a little bit. there is the mobile data symbol with a '!' | 12:31 |
| Quu | maybe you should contact the dude who uploaded that app to warehouse | 12:33 |
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| Sailor356 | it isnt a app | 12:34 |
| Sailor356 | i installed openvpn via terminal | 12:34 |
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| faiden | are you using systemd to start openvpn service? | 12:44 |
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| phaeron | Yaniel: what is output of gsettings get org.freedesktop.Tracker.Miner.Files index-removable-devices | 13:04 |
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| Khertan | Hi, | 13:17 |
| Stskeeps | Khertan: did i just tweet you before? | 13:18 |
| Stskeeps | my wife complained of same issue but i was unable to debug it at the time | 13:18 |
| Khertan | yeah ear was so hot | 13:18 |
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| Khertan | never got such problems before | 13:18 |
| Stskeeps | Khertan: hang on two-three sec | 13:19 |
| Stskeeps | er, mins | 13:19 |
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| Khertan | and you know that i was collecting them :p | 13:19 |
| Stskeeps | Khertan: i have a bit of a suspicion that something goes wrong in regards of touch input -> spike cpu | 13:20 |
| Khertan | i fear that call kill me some synaps | 13:20 |
| Stskeeps | but need to collect data to prov it | 13:20 |
| Stskeeps | nah, heat doesn't do anything | 13:20 |
| Khertan | i know | 13:20 |
| Khertan | joking | 13:20 |
| Stskeeps | it's like a mild visit to a sauna made by non-finns | 13:20 |
| Stskeeps | ;) | 13:20 |
| Khertan | oh ... so i lost some :) | 13:20 |
| Stskeeps | can you reproduce it? | 13:20 |
| faenil | well, if the cause of the heat is radiations.. ;) | 13:21 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: not sure, no many friends to call :p | 13:21 |
| Khertan | yes | 13:21 |
| Khertan | indeed | 13:22 |
| Khertan | alien_audio_ser | 13:22 |
| Khertan | 96.0 0.3 966:13.12 | 13:22 |
| Yaniel | phaeron: ooh, it is false | 13:22 |
| Yaniel | I wonder why | 13:22 |
| Stskeeps | Khertan: ouch | 13:22 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, that would explain it | 13:22 |
| Khertan | indeed | 13:22 |
| Stskeeps | what kind of call? | 13:22 |
| faenil | $%£%$ alien... | 13:23 |
| Khertan | there is different type of call ? | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | well | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | people call through skype at times ;) | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | so i just want to be clear on terminology | 13:23 |
| Khertan | oh no, real phone :) | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | /system/bin/logcat | 13:23 |
| phaeron | Yaniel: hmm how the hell did it flip .. | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | anything loop? | 13:23 |
| Yaniel | yay, gsettings set ... may have fixed it | 13:24 |
| phaeron | Yaniel: https://github.com/nemomobile/sd-utils/blob/master/scripts/tracker-sd-indexing.sh#L5 | 13:24 |
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| Yaniel | now it at least says it is indexing the sd card | 13:24 |
| sharpneli | Btw. Regarding the "touch input -> spike cpu". It's really interesting to measure the power drain from USB charger when one touches the screen (and the battery is full). One can easily see the power consumption spikes when the CPU clocks up when something happens. | 13:24 |
| Yaniel | could it be that it flipped when it couldn't reserve space for the metadata? | 13:24 |
| phaeron | I hope this goes away when gconf is replaced with dconf | 13:24 |
| phaeron | Yaniel: what metadata | 13:25 |
| Yaniel | any | 13:25 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: nothing looping like hell | 13:25 |
| Stskeeps | Khertan: hrmm | 13:25 |
| Yaniel | as btrfs hogged the main storage | 13:25 |
| Yaniel | and half of the sd card | 13:25 |
| Stskeeps | how about /system/bin/logcat -b radio (needs root) | 13:25 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: V/PrintK (12999): [63446.892160] 11276 0 | 13:25 |
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| faenil | sharpneli, CPU goes to max freq when using the touchscreen, that's known | 13:25 |
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| Stskeeps | Khertan: loops with that? | 13:26 |
| sharpneli | Yap | 13:26 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: not even an android app running in background | 13:26 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: no just some line | 13:26 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 13:26 |
| Stskeeps | so, the alien audio server gone crazy | 13:26 |
| Stskeeps | strace? | 13:26 |
| Khertan | probably | 13:26 |
| Khertan | no strace installed | 13:27 |
| stephg | ssu ar mer-tools; ssu ur; pkcon refresh; pkcon install strace ;) | 13:27 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: got loop when phone idling | 13:28 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: http://pastebin.com/Y2psDca6 | 13:28 |
| Khertan | strace : ioctl(3, BT819_FIFO_RESET_HIGH, 0xbeea4668) = ? ERESTARTSYS (To be restarted if SA_RESTART is set) | 13:29 |
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| Stskeeps | ok | 13:29 |
| Stskeeps | so it had a unhandled signal perhaps | 13:29 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: anything else to help ? | 13:30 |
| Stskeeps | no, it's a bug in the audio server, i hope it's been solved by the dalvik guys | 13:30 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: battery is drained fast | 13:31 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, i normally would just kill -9 it | 13:31 |
| Khertan | i ll reboot :) | 13:31 |
| Stskeeps | i haven't seen that problem in a long while, so i hope it's solved | 13:32 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: didn t use so much apps, just an heavy one (Firefox) | 13:32 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 13:32 |
| Stskeeps | i think it's a bug, triggered by something | 13:33 |
| Khertan | video and audio in firefox for android | 13:33 |
| Khertan | probably | 13:33 |
| Stskeeps | not impossible | 13:33 |
| Stskeeps | any shutdowns so far, btw? | 13:33 |
| Khertan | none ... | 13:34 |
| Khertan | a bit surprize | 13:34 |
| Khertan | i ve start to use it as main phone since 2d | 13:34 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 13:35 |
| Khertan | not sure i ll keep it ... screen is a problem when i m outside | 13:35 |
| Stskeeps | what brightness level are you on? | 13:35 |
| Khertan | full | 13:35 |
| Stskeeps | my problem is that it's too damn bright at night | 13:35 |
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| pdanek1 | Stskeeps: Have you ever worked with FreeBSD? | 13:36 |
| ShadowJK | I've not yet used a device where the screen wasnt too bright at night at lowest setting :) | 13:36 |
| Stskeeps | pdanek1: i have.. | 13:36 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: could the brightness be limited by software ? | 13:36 |
| Teme | i also have quite a bit of trouble seeing anything from the screen in sunlight - although i don't know if phones in general are any better at it | 13:36 |
| Stskeeps | pdanek1: used it for desktop for 1-2 years | 13:36 |
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| SK_work | Teme: the N9 is slightly better | 13:37 |
| Khertan | Teme: n9 was better | 13:37 |
| SK_work | however don't know if it's because of the screen of ambiences system | 13:37 |
| SK_work | probably both | 13:37 |
| ShadowJK | It's more of an issue that everybody wants shiny glossy screens, and that the screens that are visisble in sunlight with no backlight, are not very popular or buzzword-compatible.. | 13:37 |
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| gabriel9|work | use lighter theme | 13:37 |
| faenil | Khertan, maybe you could try those special screen protectors? | 13:37 |
| SK_work | N9 UI is more contrasted | 13:37 |
| pdanek1 | Stskeeps: Do you still consider it as better OS? | 13:37 |
| Khertan | sdjayna: i ll say both | 13:37 |
| Stskeeps | pdanek1: it had it's charm | 13:37 |
| Stskeeps | then i grew up | 13:37 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:37 |
| Khertan | faenil: i ve try one, but result was worst | 13:37 |
| Khertan | faenil: any to suggest | 13:37 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: And started using toy OS instead? | 13:37 |
| Khertan | ? | 13:38 |
| faenil | Khertan, not a normal one, I mean those against the sun | 13:38 |
| Stskeeps | what i really want is the n810 screen.. | 13:38 |
| faenil | Khertan, no I don't have any recommendation | 13:38 |
| Khertan | faenil: yes i know i try one ... | 13:38 |
| faenil | ah ok | 13:38 |
| javispedro | n810 I still use sometimes for Plucker | 13:38 |
| javispedro | great screen | 13:38 |
| javispedro | great size, great form factor | 13:38 |
| RST38h | moo, javispedro | 13:38 |
| javispedro | moo RST38h | 13:39 |
| RST38h | yeah, and no freaking LEDs sucking the battery =) | 13:39 |
| javispedro | now I'm really doubting whether this is #maemo or not =) | 13:39 |
| Khertan | faenil: do not use MyGear Sun Block | 13:39 |
| faenil | if I could choose, I'd buy a phone with: 1) good display 2) good vibrator 3) good loudspeaker | 13:39 |
| Khertan | faenil: result is worse | 13:39 |
| faenil | Khertan, ok :D | 13:39 |
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| faenil | Jolla sucks at all of those unfortunately :D | 13:40 |
| javispedro | btw I was surprised at the low volume of my replacement Jolla | 13:40 |
| Khertan | faenil: 1) good display 2) python support 3) good cam | 13:40 |
| Nicd- | people use the speakers on a phone? other than for phonecalls and the occasional youtube video | 13:40 |
| Khertan | faenil: and at least py3.4 :) | 13:40 |
| SK_work | Khertan: too bad you don't have neither 1 nor 3 | 13:41 |
| SK_work | and 2 is just coming | 13:41 |
| RST38h | javispedro: it is *all* #maemo in a way | 13:41 |
| Khertan | SK_work: 2 is already there python3.4 ... i didn t care anymore about harbour | 13:41 |
| faenil | Khertan, yeah well my needs are many more, but those are the more fulfilling ones I think | 13:41 |
| Khertan | :) | 13:41 |
| SK_work | Khertan: :) | 13:41 |
| Khertan | faenil: of course | 13:41 |
| RST38h | javipedro: even the tizen thing is kinda maemish, just trying hard to look like Android | 13:41 |
| faenil | most* | 13:41 |
| SK_work | RST38h: really ? looks quite android to me | 13:42 |
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| javispedro | I will wait to see how much hackable their first shipping device is | 13:43 |
| javispedro | cause sofar the watches seemingly aren't much. | 13:43 |
| RST38h | SK: sdb root on; sdb shell | 13:43 |
| Khertan | RST38h: i still use my n810, that s my wifi command for many things (raspberry, home) | 13:43 |
| SK_work | javispedro: ask Stskeeps about Gear 1 | 13:44 |
| RST38h | Khertan: Mine is retired but in full working order =) | 13:44 |
| javispedro | Gear 1 _was_ Android | 13:44 |
| RST38h | They are upgrading Gear1 from Android to Tizen btw | 13:44 |
| javispedro | yep :) | 13:44 |
| RST38h | Started upgrade 2-3 days ago | 13:44 |
| javispedro | .... and it's still going? | 13:45 |
| RST38h | prolly, don't have a gear =) | 13:45 |
| RST38h | Tinkering-wise, Chinese Android watches seem to be the best choice right now | 13:45 |
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| SK_work | the only thing I hope about the new tizen thing is that they will support Qt | 13:46 |
| RST38h | No reason why they wouldn't | 13:47 |
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| RST38h | Also no reason why I would use the current Qt | 13:47 |
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| SK_work | RST38h: why ? | 13:48 |
| RST38h | SK: Makes it too difficult to write anything | 13:49 |
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| javispedro | shhh, wrong channel =) | 13:49 |
| RST38h | yeah, right =) | 13:49 |
| SK_work | RST38h: harder than the HTML5 thing ? | 13:49 |
| SK_work | because I should check, ubt yeah, wrong chan | 13:49 |
| RST38h | SK: Dunno, as I am not writing HTML5 apps either | 13:49 |
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| javispedro | for C++ folks Qt is slowly turning into a javascript+qml toolkit, and using Qt "just for the base Qt classes" is not that huge benefit | 13:51 |
| Yaniel | yay now it works | 13:51 |
| Yaniel | ...and whose idea was it to have *this* kind of setting hidden that well? | 13:51 |
| javispedro | in practice I see no difference between html5 with a sane C++ plugin system (e.g. weboOS like) and qml with qt | 13:51 |
| SK_work | javispedro: I give you one: HTML5 is much more boilerplate code than QML | 13:52 |
| SK_work | but in practice, yeah | 13:52 |
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| javispedro | "in practice" because there are shitloads of html toolkits and many of them abstract all of the boilerplate away | 13:52 |
| SK_work | javispedro: and noone prevents you in just using C++ :) | 13:52 |
| SK_work | javispedro: you still need to write XML like code, and do you like writing XML ? | 13:53 |
| RST38h | SK: Yes, QWidget | 13:53 |
| SK_work | RST38h: indeed, QWidget | 13:53 |
| SK_work | still the best for desktop | 13:53 |
| RST38h | SK: Except trolls explicitely said that QWidget is legacy and no longer supported =( | 13:53 |
| SK_work | RST38h: they never said that | 13:53 |
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| SK_work | they said QWidget are done | 13:53 |
| RST38h | They did, unfortunately | 13:53 |
| SK_work | meaning bugfixes, but no new features | 13:53 |
| SK_work | like no scenegraph for QWidgets | 13:54 |
| RST38h | Well, we can interpret their statement differently | 13:54 |
| SK_work | still, QtCreator is written with QWidgets, and I guess that this means that they don't think that QWidget is deprecated or something like that | 13:54 |
| SK_work | they are done | 13:54 |
| RST38h | The bottom line is that QWidget is dead and the new stuff they are releasing is pretty unpractical | 13:54 |
| javispedro | QWidget may not be deprecated (seems that some volunteers are keeping it up) | 13:54 |
| javispedro | but there are many issues with its practical use on many platforms | 13:55 |
| SK_work | yep | 13:55 |
| javispedro | I suspect that on half of the mobile platforms Qt runs on it won't work at all | 13:55 |
| RST38h | Based on JavaScript (bad performance, memory hog) mixed with some custom not-quite-CSS syntax | 13:55 |
| SK_work | QWidgets is still the best for desktop though | 13:55 |
| javispedro | and on Jolla any popup-ish widget is completely broken | 13:55 |
| javispedro | (because of the window manager) | 13:55 |
| javispedro | comboboxes, menus, tooltips, etc. | 13:55 |
| RST38h | well that is probably to be expected | 13:55 |
| RST38h | Remember how they clearly said they have chosen NOT to work on this for Qt on Harmattan? | 13:56 |
| javispedro | Harmattan Qt worked much better, the remaining issues were mostly theming | 13:56 |
| RST38h | Who *is* developing Qt nowadays, anyway? | 13:56 |
| SK_work | RST38h: digia | 13:56 |
| SK_work | and ... | 13:57 |
| SK_work | digia :D | 13:57 |
| RST38h | No, people wise? | 13:57 |
| special | RST38h: http://www.macieira.org/~thiago/qt-stats/current/qt-all.employer.absolute.png | 13:57 |
| SK_work | and they want it to be on Android etc. | 13:57 |
| Khertan | SK_work: you forgot digia, there are working a lot on it | 13:57 |
| RST38h | Original Trolltech people, or some nameless indians Digia has hired? | 13:57 |
| SK_work | IMO, the QML thing is not a bad move for Android / iOS | 13:57 |
| SK_work | Khertan: :D | 13:57 |
| SK_work | RST38h: some trolls, some non-trolls I guess | 13:57 |
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| RST38h | SK: Android's own UI toolkit is way more practical | 13:58 |
| SK_work | IIRC the transition was not abrupt | 13:58 |
| SK_work | RST38h: eh ? The XML thing ? | 13:58 |
| javispedro | SK_work: I think it makes sense to compete in the über-saturated "portable" UI runtime market... | 13:58 |
| RST38h | No need to use QML there | 13:58 |
| RST38h | Dunno abot iOS though | 13:58 |
| javispedro | they are actually slightly similar in ideas | 13:59 |
| SK_work | javispedro: indeed they are | 13:59 |
| javispedro | even if the implementation is completely different | 13:59 |
| SK_work | and XAML too etc. | 13:59 |
| * javispedro is sold on "fluid layouts" which seem to be favored by HTML5 and .. Qml sometimes ... and ... XAML? | 13:59 | |
| pdanek1 | How hard can it be to port BB10 apps to Jolla? Not that hard right? | 14:00 |
| pdanek1 | To Sailfish I mean. | 14:00 |
| javispedro | Cascades is not Silica. | 14:00 |
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| SK_work | pdanek1: C++ code should compile with minimal modifs (Qt 4 vs Qt 5) | 14:00 |
| SK_work | cascades, in the other way | 14:00 |
| SK_work | basically: rewrite your UI :) | 14:00 |
| RST38h | javispedro: XAML is unusably slow | 14:01 |
| pdanek1 | Hm. | 14:01 |
| * javispedro has used XUL, it can't be worse | 14:01 | |
| RST38h | javipedro: As to fluid layouts, you can do them in many UIs, even Win32, it just takes a bit more effort | 14:02 |
| RST38h | Certainly not worth buying into thi whole CSS/JavaScript craze | 14:02 |
| javispedro | RST38h: that is obviously correct, but I want to minimize time spent on UIs, not magnify it by a factor of 10x | 14:02 |
| javispedro | no toolkit has come even close to solving the problem of spending more time on a stupid UI with a few textboxes than on the actual program | 14:03 |
| javispedro | on other fronts, at least I could say that combining parsers have come close to solving the similar problem that exists with parsing | 14:04 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Actually, it takes less time for me to implement constraints in Win32 than figure out why QML stuff does not work the way I assume it has to work | 14:04 |
| pdanek1 | Was Jolla ever considering Cascades before? | 14:04 |
| RST38h | javispedro: As to time being spent, Android makes it pretty easy to do the UI | 14:04 |
| special | pdanek1: no. | 14:04 |
| javispedro | RST38h: probably you have a shitload of win32 boilerplate, which is basically the same thing I do in qml | 14:05 |
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| RST38h | I cannot say Android UI toolkit dramatically solves your problem, but it kinda sorta makes UI creation less obtrusive than writing actual code | 14:06 |
| RST38h | javispedro: True | 14:06 |
| SK_work | pdanek1: well you cannot, cascades is prop | 14:06 |
| RST38h | javispedro: I basically abstract a lot of win32 (or other) stuff in my own | 14:06 |
| phaeron | Yaniel: it's not hidden, it's the default key used by tracker. stored in gconf. | 14:06 |
| RST38h | "toolkit" | 14:06 |
| javispedro | obviously at least with win32 you have some comfort in that the boilerplate will keep working for the foreseable future | 14:06 |
| faenil | sorry to interrupt guys, I want to buy an armband for Jolla | 14:06 |
| RST38h | javispedro: That is the second problem with QML | 14:07 |
| SK_work | faenil: does this exists ? | 14:07 |
| javispedro | no such benefit in qml, html5, or even xaml | 14:07 |
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| faenil | which model should I look for, which has a similar size? | 14:07 |
| SK_work | faenil: did your Jolla landed on the ground ? | 14:07 |
| RST38h | javispedro: The first being unability to do the stuff I want to do because QML forces me into certain behavioral models | 14:07 |
| faenil | SK_work, no, armband, those you use when running | 14:07 |
| SK_work | faenil: ah | 14:07 |
| SK_work | something that count your calories, heartbeat etc ? | 14:07 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Well, if you choose HTML4 as the least common denominator and stick to it, you should be safe :) | 14:08 |
| faenil | no, just a cover to put the jolla on my arm! :P | 14:08 |
| SK_work | iirc meerun is compatible with some of them | 14:08 |
| SK_work | faenil: :D | 14:08 |
| SK_work | well, don't know | 14:08 |
| javispedro | RST38h: but obviously I want to talk with a C++ plugin too and there's no standard for that | 14:08 |
| javispedro | in fact everyone's using radically different things | 14:09 |
| * javispedro concedes that is something qml has more or less solved | 14:09 | |
| faenil | any famous samsung model which has similar size as jolla? | 14:09 |
| SK_work | :D | 14:09 |
| SK_work | faenil: galaxy s4-5 mini ? | 14:09 |
| SK_work | might work | 14:09 |
| faenil | mm | 14:10 |
| SK_work | or generic 4.5 defice ? | 14:10 |
| javispedro | faenil: maybe you can 3d print the receptacle? from the 3d models for the TOH | 14:10 |
| SK_work | device* | 14:10 |
| faenil | javispedro, not worth it, the armband is 4€ shipped :P | 14:10 |
| Quu | thats like super expensive | 14:10 |
| javispedro | yeah, you could buy two of those with the € you saved by the 10eur Jolla discount! | 14:11 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Well, you can write the whole thing in C++ and use a web widget of some kind to display the UI | 14:11 |
| javispedro | RST38h: that's "one of the methods" only | 14:11 |
| javispedro | RST38h: e.g. webos used the reverse model | 14:11 |
| RST38h | javispedro: It is simplistic but works everywhere you have the web widget (surprisingly) | 14:11 |
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| javispedro | RST38h: (dunno about tizen) and QML's default is also the opposite direction -- C++ objects embedded in QML | 14:12 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Yes, if you are crafty enough, you can also pull patient's teeth through his anus | 14:12 |
| javispedro | RST38h: though I remember the approach you used in your Harmattan apps :) | 14:12 |
| RST38h | javispedro: I did it both ways there | 14:13 |
| RST38h | had to, but no longer remember why | 14:13 |
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| javispedro | among other things you lose lots of performance since you're paying for the qml initialization penalty | 14:13 |
| RST38h | Oh, freaking QML did not let me create a surface to draw into, at least not quickly enough. Hence QWidget with QML hierarchy attached. | 14:13 |
| javispedro | instead of allowing zygote/maemo-invoker/mapplauncherd to do it for you | 14:14 |
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| RST38h | startup performance was not what I cared about | 14:14 |
| javispedro | I remember there was some very noticeable delay when opening the QML parts while it was loading the _HUGE_ JS libraries | 14:14 |
| RST38h | yeah | 14:14 |
| RST38h | And that was time when JS libraries were still small ;) | 14:14 |
| javispedro | heh | 14:14 |
| SK_work | reason to use as less JS as possible with QML | 14:15 |
| RST38h | SK: It will still load that shit =) | 14:15 |
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| javispedro | yeah | 14:15 |
| javispedro | no way around it | 14:15 |
| RST38h | I did not use any JS at all I think | 14:15 |
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| javispedro | and qtquick2 is more heavily coupled with the JS representation of datatypes, so it's even harder to avoid | 14:16 |
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| javispedro | (internally) | 14:16 |
| RST38h | So, how is QML different from HTML5 approach then? | 14:16 |
| javispedro | not that you could with qtquick1 =) | 14:16 |
| javispedro | as said, for me, QML is in practice no different from a HTML5 approach. | 14:16 |
| RST38h | STANDARD DISCUSSION SUMMARY: The End of the World is Coming. | 14:17 |
| SK_work | javispedro: the only fact that I see with QML is that you can rely on C++ code instead of JS | 14:17 |
| SK_work | that's all | 14:17 |
| SK_work | (and lesser boilerplate with QML than with XML) | 14:18 |
| javispedro | SK_work: but there are some (non-standard) ways around that | 14:18 |
| RST38h | I am sure HTML5 stuff also interfaces with C++ | 14:18 |
| javispedro | e.g. either your app is a C++ wrapping a HTMl5 WebView as RST38h discussed | 14:18 |
| RST38h | There is really no way around it for practical apps | 14:18 |
| javispedro | or you use a C++ <plugin> as in WebOS | 14:18 |
| gabriel9|work | is this true: http://www.finnbay.com/jollas-financial-loss-amounted-two-times-revenue/ | 14:18 |
| ShadowJK | Is finnbay that "fake" news site... | 14:19 |
| ggabriel | ...or you just use flash :P | 14:19 |
| ShadowJK | i know there was one with "finn" in the name, that is like theonion, except not funny or satirical | 14:19 |
| RST38h | gabriel: What you find surprising? | 14:19 |
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| gabriel9|work | 8.3M loss | 14:20 |
| ggabriel | gabriel9|work: it sounds sensible | 14:20 |
| ggabriel | they only sold stuff for 1 month in 2013 anyway | 14:20 |
| RST38h | It is a startup | 14:20 |
| gabriel9|work | that's true | 14:20 |
| SK_work | javispedro: +1 yeah, sorry | 14:20 |
| Teme | yeah, there was something fishy about that Finnbay | 14:20 |
| RST38h | And 8.3M is peanuts as far as crazy startups go | 14:20 |
| Teme | but startups operating with a loss is not surprising | 14:20 |
| gabriel9|work | ok, did not know that | 14:21 |
| ggabriel | if you start your wine business, you'll have a loss the first 5 years at least :D | 14:21 |
| flux | startups not operating with a loss, that's what is surprising :) | 14:21 |
| gabriel9|work | in my country that kind of loss is dead end | 14:21 |
| javispedro | in fact, the more money you lose, the greater the expectation for your IPO! | 14:21 |
| Teme | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnbay | 14:21 |
| gabriel9|work | but i am also in loss with my bees | 14:21 |
| RST38h | gabriel: You simply do not know | 14:21 |
| RST38h | gabriel: Or there are no startups in Romania | 14:21 |
| gabriel9|work | damn this weather, my bees can not work :/ | 14:22 |
| w00t | it is indeed roasty today | 14:22 |
| * w00t is considering to migrate the office outside | 14:22 | |
| ggabriel | w00t: do it | 14:23 |
| gabriel9|work | I am not from Romania, me from Bosnia and hercegovina | 14:23 |
| ggabriel | work from garden | 14:23 |
| Teme | gabriel9|work: zdravo :) | 14:23 |
| gabriel9|work | zdravo i tebi :) | 14:23 |
| Teme | my girlfriend is from Sarajevo | 14:23 |
| flux | I just visited hercegovina! | 14:23 |
| flux | ..though it was a restaurant at copenhagen | 14:23 |
| gabriel9|work | lol | 14:24 |
| gabriel9|work | Well, im not from Sarajevo. I live in Banja Luka, Republic Serbska | 14:24 |
| gabriel9|work | complicated state... | 14:24 |
| Teme | i know | 14:24 |
| Teme | floods hit there? | 14:24 |
| gabriel9|work | my house is under the watter | 14:25 |
| Teme | :( | 14:25 |
| RST38h | gabriel: Ah, I am sure you have got startups too =) | 14:25 |
| RST38h | gabriel: Sorry for the weather though. Condolences =( | 14:25 |
| javispedro | bah, seems that motoG uses bluedroid | 14:25 |
| gabriel9|work | thanks | 14:25 |
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| gabriel9|work | but i have a job so i can help my family :) | 14:25 |
| gabriel9|work | all will be fine | 14:25 |
| gabriel9|work | i have 3 apps to publish on jolla :D | 14:26 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Well, it is Intel based, right? | 14:26 |
| javispedro | motoG? no, I think it's cortex A7 iirc | 14:26 |
| RST38h | Ah, ok | 14:27 |
| javispedro | Intel actually pushes Bluez instead of bluedroid, for all I know | 14:27 |
| RST38h | But wait, this bring a question | 14:27 |
| RST38h | Why is Google-owned Moto releasing a device with some guerilla Android distro? | 14:27 |
| RST38h | Ah wait again, Bluedroid actually means two things. Interesting. | 14:28 |
| javispedro | nono, bluedroid is google's new bluetooth stack, not distro | 14:28 |
| RST38h | So it is a bt stack! | 14:28 |
| javispedro | yeah. is there a distro named bluedroid too? =) | 14:28 |
| javispedro | oh, there is. | 14:28 |
| RST38h | Apparently | 14:28 |
| flux | doesn't seem to be very popular in my google :) | 14:29 |
| javispedro | I'd really want a Intel phone | 14:30 |
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| RST38h | javispedro: Why? | 14:31 |
| pdanek1 | javispedro: why? | 14:31 |
| javispedro | reason is not hardware, performance or whatever, but to put it simply: I think the best way for a man to drown in his own vomit is to read qualcomm's kernel source code | 14:31 |
| pdanek1 | javispedro: RISC > x86 | 14:31 |
| ggabriel | pdanek1: surely you mean RISC > CISC | 14:31 |
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| ggabriel | and those are very old classifications anyway ;) | 14:32 |
| javispedro | fsck ARM and their crazy manufacturers | 14:32 |
| ggabriel | javispedro: agree, also competition isn't a bad thing | 14:32 |
| ggabriel | and intel tends to open source their drivers for linux too, which is a good thing | 14:32 |
| pdanek1 | ggabriel: yes, RISC > CISC, but everyone knew what I meant :D | 14:33 |
| RST38h | javispedro: I do sadly think that your wish comes from the lack of knowledge of Intel's development process =( | 14:33 |
| sharpneli | pdanek1: Amusingly enough all modern X86 chips are actually RISC cores with a translation unit on top. So X86 asm simply becomes a rather good instruction packing format ;) | 14:33 |
| ggabriel | pdanek1: you may want to know that these days the amount of instrucitons of RISC is similar to that of CISC | 14:33 |
| ggabriel | but hey | 14:33 |
| ggabriel | well, i read that, i didn't count them myself | 14:33 |
| RST38h | javispedro: If it means anything, I got to play with an Intel Android phone | 14:33 |
| pdanek1 | hmm | 14:33 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Looked like iPhone1, ran Android 2.3, cost $750 | 14:33 |
| javispedro | RST38h: I couldn't care less if their development method consists on giving performance enhancing drugs AND vodka to an army of monkeys | 14:33 |
| flux | sharpneli, though I understand the unpacking part takes a sizable amount of surface area? | 14:34 |
| javispedro | RST38h: the results are nice and work | 14:34 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Not really | 14:34 |
| sharpneli | flux: Sure. But it saves a lot of memory bandwidth. So it's a tradeoff. | 14:34 |
| RST38h | javispedro: As I have said, Android 2.3. Also, really bad app compatibility (Houdini does not quite work it seems) | 14:34 |
| sharpneli | flux: And most importantly instruction cache. | 14:34 |
| javispedro | RST38h: I am not interesting in Android. I just want to boot my stuff. | 14:34 |
| javispedro | RST38h: time I spent to boot a kernel on Intel hardware is often minutes | 14:35 |
| javispedro | RST38h: time I spent to boot a kernel on ARM hardware is often years | 14:35 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Ah, this changes things | 14:35 |
| tbr | most intel android soc's are closed though, aren't they? | 14:35 |
| flux | sharpneli, I wonder how many watts does the decoder take.. if it is used for decoding cached instructions as well. | 14:35 |
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| RST38h | tbr: Lemme check | 14:35 |
| javispedro | tbr: RST38h: most of phone ones currently are indeed. | 14:35 |
| tbr | and by that I mean, closed boot loader | 14:36 |
| javispedro | tablet ones aren't | 14:36 |
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| tbr | k | 14:36 |
| RST38h | Ah ok | 14:36 |
| RST38h | Yes, so it seems according to goole | 14:36 |
| javispedro | there's powervr and infineon stuff in phone ones | 14:36 |
| javispedro | (also) | 14:36 |
| RST38h | This is going to change | 14:37 |
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| javispedro | yeah, on the negative side I've heard "it is going to change" for a long time now | 14:37 |
| sharpneli | flux: Hard to say. But right now for raw power it seems to be the best choice by far. | 14:37 |
| RST38h | You can expect the phones to slowly convert to the tablet line | 14:37 |
| pdanek1 | I think the licensed model ARM has, at the moment, that so many manufacturers make ARM. is better than what is in x86 world. | 14:37 |
| RST38h | javispedro: devprocess for a chip takes 2-3 years | 14:37 |
| pdanek1 | Speeds up the development, I guess. | 14:37 |
| RST38h | javispedro: And the current phone socs are so... different that it will take a while | 14:38 |
| flux | sharpneli, sure, though it probably helps intel is massive. amd doesn't seem to be doing quite as well. | 14:38 |
| javispedro | pdanek1: possibly, net results is gazillions of architectures that are only slightly compatible with each other | 14:38 |
| RST38h | javispedro: tablet ones are more generic | 14:38 |
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| javispedro | RST38h: admittedly though, they did remove powervr from their tablet chips | 14:38 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Because powervr is a liability | 14:38 |
| RST38h | javispedro: YOu can't really have an IP block for which you have no documentation | 14:39 |
| RST38h | javispedro: And can't develop drivers for it | 14:39 |
| RST38h | Simply not worth the trouble | 14:39 |
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| javispedro | we'll see what happens with phone chips then | 14:40 |
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| javispedro | but I just wish for the day I can move not only a kernel, but also an entire userspace from a qualcomm to a (e.g.) tegra | 14:41 |
| javispedro | something that is _routine_ on a PC, but mindboggling on ARM. | 14:42 |
| sharpneli | ARM doesn't have any hardware discovery standards like what PC has | 14:44 |
| sharpneli | So it's all vendor specific crud | 14:44 |
| javispedro | even things like device-tree are not going to fix more than 25% of the problem | 14:45 |
| javispedro | e.g. phone hardware. | 14:45 |
| javispedro | I mean, DT will explain that this device uses qualcomm's shared memory transport stuff. Great! Now you're missing all the mostly userspace clients for the /dev/shared_memory_transport stuff. | 14:47 |
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| javispedro | though I admit I have not seen an actual "phone" Intel SoC to be able to compare, but the tablet ones are great. | 14:48 |
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| pdanek1 | As a IBM Power lover, I still don't like Intel that much. :D | 14:49 |
| pdanek1 | If x86, then AMD is the way. | 14:52 |
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| Khertan | Kabouik: wasn t against u on hardwarefr ... more on others | 14:54 |
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| Kabouik | Hi Khertan | 14:55 |
| Khertan | Kabouik: hi | 14:55 |
| Kabouik | Still no reason for being that agressive, even if others have been agressive before your arrival too | 14:55 |
| Kabouik | And no reason for flamming the whole forum/thread I think | 14:56 |
| Kabouik | Anyway | 14:56 |
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| Khertan | Kabouik: indeed, was furious | 14:56 |
| *** Tofe is now known as Tofe|Away | 14:56 | |
| Khertan | Kabouik: but will not disturb peace of that forum again | 14:56 |
| Kabouik | That I can understand, to be honest I did not follow this story very closely | 14:57 |
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| Kabouik | I don't mind Khertan, maybe you could come back with another account, just take it easy. Will be hard to keep TNZ calm too though, now that you're officially in war, the two of you :P | 14:58 |
| Kabouik | But I have nothing against anybody there, don't pay attention to what I concluded in my post | 15:00 |
| Kabouik | I actually appreciate you highlighting me here about that :p | 15:00 |
| pdanek1 | Multiprocessing in Sailfish, Android, BB10, iOS and Windows Phone. | 15:02 |
| pdanek1 | Regarding the apps, I guess it depends app from app, how well it utilizes multiple cores or threads. | 15:02 |
| pdanek1 | But OS optimization itself, are any of above better than others in this? | 15:02 |
| special | they are very different | 15:03 |
| special | WP for example pauses execution of almost all apps when not in the foreground | 15:03 |
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| special | iOS is similar but not as extreme | 15:04 |
| pdanek1 | BB10 is very much running all at once I guess. | 15:04 |
| faenil | nope | 15:04 |
| faenil | they're paused, but you can have background activies | 15:05 |
| faenil | (or something like that) | 15:05 |
| special | sailfish does not [at present] pause applications | 15:05 |
| faenil | you have to request a special capability in BB10 to be able to run tasks in background | 15:05 |
| ShadowJK | except when screen is off | 15:05 |
| special | when screen is off, the entire device suspends | 15:06 |
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| pdanek1 | Sailfish -> screen off -> does entire device suspend? | 15:07 |
| javispedro | yes | 15:07 |
| pdanek1 | If you want to run web server on Sailfish, can you overcome it? | 15:07 |
| javispedro | yes | 15:07 |
| special | it will wake for network traffic, for one | 15:07 |
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| javispedro | pdanek1: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=92183 | 15:08 |
| pdanek1 | thx | 15:08 |
| pdanek1 | special: Android? pauses? :) | 15:08 |
| javispedro | pdanek1: my current recommendation is "mcetool --set-suspend-policy=early" | 15:09 |
| mornfall | hooray, random reboots are back | 15:09 |
| special | I don't know as much about android's model | 15:09 |
| special | it does pause to some extent | 15:09 |
| javispedro | special: you do, because it is basically jolla's. | 15:09 |
| mornfall | 5 in the last 10 days or so | 15:09 |
| javispedro | ah well | 15:09 |
| special | javispedro: we use the same kernel suspend logic as android, but not the same application suspend logic. | 15:09 |
| mornfall | accompanied by wildly jumping battery indicator | 15:09 |
| javispedro | special: ignore that if you're talking about application suspend :) | 15:09 |
| javispedro | pdanek1: android leaves programs "lingering" for a few minutes in the background then kills them | 15:10 |
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| javispedro | pdanek1: it is basically the same iOS does except that android tends to leave them alone for quite some more time | 15:11 |
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| pdanek1 | kills? | 15:12 |
| pdanek1 | not suspend? | 15:12 |
| javispedro | no operating system that I know of actually suspends programs | 15:12 |
| mornfall | might be related to https://together.jolla.com/question/44389/charge-your-phone-pops-up-even-when-phone-fully-loaded/ | 15:12 |
| javispedro | they are all killed | 15:12 |
| special | javispedro: SIGSTOP/SIGCONT | 15:12 |
| javispedro | special: noone does that | 15:12 |
| special | javispedro: iOS and WP are doing suspend | 15:13 |
| javispedro | special: nope, you are forced to save state | 15:13 |
| javispedro | (using your own code for that) | 15:13 |
| javispedro | and then the OS kills you | 15:13 |
| special | at least in the iOS case, you save state and then get suspended, but not killed unless the OS decides it wants the memory back | 15:13 |
| javispedro | you can actually run code in the state iOS calls "suspended" | 15:14 |
| pdanek1 | I thought newest Android versions have a real multitasking like Sailfish does. | 15:14 |
| javispedro | if you do, you'll get promptly killed though. | 15:14 |
| pdanek1 | So the only real multitaskers are BB10 and Sailfish. | 15:14 |
| special | I will admit | 15:14 |
| javispedro | same as WP | 15:14 |
| special | I am surprised at how good our battery life is without any special suspending or killing logic at all | 15:14 |
| special | it's easily competitive | 15:14 |
| javispedro | in fact MS even specifies the cputime limits you are allowed while "suspended" | 15:14 |
| javispedro | iirc 1second and you're killed | 15:14 |
| javispedro | more is allowed if user has selected you as one of the lockscreen apps or alarm app | 15:15 |
| javispedro | pdanek1: common misconception and very funny to see iOS/Android fanboys arguing about that. | 15:16 |
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| mornfall | javispedro: it is real multitasking as long as the apps are properly stateless (i.e. all their observable state is kept in non-volatile memory) | 15:16 |
| javispedro | special: agreed. why everyone felt the need to reinvent the 1980s all over again is over me | 15:16 |
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| javispedro | (I suppose the 1960s ask the same question to the 1980s, though :) ) | 15:17 |
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| pdanek1 | javispedro: well I never used iOS and only older versions of Android, normally I'm heavy N900 and Jolla user so all I know is multitasking.... and based on internet rumors and news, it seemed that latest Android versions multitask as good as Sailfish does. :D | 15:18 |
| javispedro | mornfall: noone does that either, which is one of my complaints | 15:18 |
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| mornfall | javispedro: interesting work there by OpenVZ recently, btw. | 15:18 |
| javispedro | I don't know what they've done, but tbh to properly implement all of this crap we need no new technology nor kernel service that hasn't been there since the 80s. | 15:19 |
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| javispedro | _maybe_ some way to add memory vma priority the same way one sets thread priority, but that's about it. | 15:19 |
| mornfall | javispedro: well, with enough swap, you could just SIGSTOP things :-) | 15:20 |
| mornfall | that'd probably work in 90% of cases | 15:20 |
| javispedro | agreed | 15:20 |
| javispedro | but however it may be interesting for e.g. firefox to "know" that it is being swapped out so as to dump all the uncompressed images | 15:21 |
| mornfall | not for processes holding open TCP sockets, though | 15:21 |
| javispedro | err.. remove the agreed, I was too quick to answer. | 15:21 |
| javispedro | and change that to a "disagree" | 15:21 |
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| special | even desktop linux could use a notification of "you should release cache/non-essential memory now, the system needs it" | 15:22 |
| javispedro | arguably android has that | 15:22 |
| special | turn the OOM killer into a lottery system | 15:23 |
| special | the processes which contribute least to reducing the memory load are killed first | 15:23 |
| javispedro | I'd prefer to have the madvise DISCARDABLE flag or whatever it's called these days | 15:23 |
| special | you don't implement it in your application, so your application gets killed more often | 15:23 |
| javispedro | but potentially a range of priorities even for pages marked as discardable | 15:23 |
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| w00t | special: lets just kill lipstick all the time. it'll free lots of memory! :p | 15:24 |
| Stskeeps | symbian style, homescreen gets stopped, then next app starts. | 15:24 |
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| javispedro | Stskeeps: that's also PalmOS style | 15:24 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 15:24 |
| javispedro | in fact, PalmOS's launcher app basically exec()'d the next app | 15:24 |
| javispedro | (no fork()) | 15:24 |
| javispedro | and expected "nice behaving" apps to eventually exec(launcher) at some point | 15:25 |
| special | w00t: let's make everything a plugin of lipstick instead of a separate executable, and we'll just load/unload plugins as needed. better memory sharing and control | 15:25 |
| javispedro | hey, I would like lipstick plugins | 15:25 |
| javispedro | I even have a usecase for them | 15:26 |
| javispedro | I want to filter input events globally | 15:26 |
| javispedro | to add "calibration" for my capacitive stylus and global stylus/eraser detection | 15:26 |
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| javispedro | possibly I could even ignore OS swipe gestures when stylus is touching the screen.. | 15:28 |
| javispedro | so many ideas, so little time. | 15:29 |
| * javispedro is too chatty today. | 15:29 | |
| Stskeeps | it's useful chatter, much appreciated | 15:29 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:29 |
| pdanek | As for Tizen, do you know why they didn't release any Tizen phone yet on MWC? | 15:30 |
| pdanek | I mean, if anyone ever should try to fight Android, why not now? | 15:30 |
| pdanek | When emerging markets are in the game. | 15:30 |
| Stskeeps | MWC isn't a place to really announce | 15:30 |
| Stskeeps | there was the S4 there, i think | 15:30 |
| Stskeeps | or S5, i forgot | 15:30 |
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| pdanek | right | 15:31 |
| pdanek | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTcwNzY | 15:31 |
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| faenil | pdanek, again, BB10 doesn't do true multitasking | 15:33 |
| faenil | pdanek, apps are suspended, and you can only run tasks in background if you request a certain capability | 15:33 |
| pdanek | faenil: yes, I read on BB web about that background capatibility, but what stops app developers to use it for every single app? | 15:34 |
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| faenil | pdanek, there's a problem, you can't do what you want on bb10, even if you have the capability | 15:36 |
| pdanek | um | 15:36 |
| pdanek | As for BB10 goes, can their Android runtime run more than 1 app at the same time? As my Sailfish can't :D | 15:36 |
| faenil | (looking for details) | 15:36 |
| faenil | pdanek, I think it can with the latest runtime, but not sure at all | 15:36 |
| mornfall | anyway, what about those reboots? | 15:36 |
| javispedro | pdanek: if BB10 itself doesn't multitasking, why would its android emulator? :) | 15:36 |
| mornfall | is there a known solution these days? | 15:37 |
| javispedro | mornfall: I think the official answer is still JollaCare ... :( | 15:37 |
| javispedro | mornfall: there's the "piece of paper" in battery holder thing.. | 15:37 |
| javispedro | if you suspect it's caused by that, that is. | 15:38 |
| pdanek | faenil: I'm not sure about above, I still do think that BB10 multitasking is comparable to one on Sailfish. | 15:39 |
| javispedro | I remember that when I was considering sowatch for bb10, there was no way to actually create a daemon | 15:42 |
| javispedro | ie a background application without windows | 15:42 |
| javispedro | but there was a way to do stuff in the background if you showed at least one window. no idea about specifics though. | 15:42 |
| mornfall | javispedro: piece of paper sounds bogus, considering how the indicator jumps around | 15:43 |
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| mornfall | javispedro: a loose contact would probably cause a reboot, but not an appreciable change in battery charge estimate, and certainly not upwards? | 15:43 |
| javispedro | mornfall: it might if it increases/decreases resistivity | 15:43 |
| javispedro | in contacts | 15:43 |
| pdanek | Regarding the live covers in Sailfish, I still can't get used to actually use them, do you? :D | 15:44 |
| javispedro | mornfall: have you tried shaking the device? =) | 15:44 |
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| pdanek | javispedro: There is "Hi" from zogg. ;) And he told me that so called "Headless apps" for BB10 were added in version 10.2. So BB10 now can have such "daemon". Though it has certain limits. | 15:46 |
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| Khertan | pdanek: too small for me ... | 15:46 |
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| pdanek | http://developer.blackberry.com/native/documentation/cascades/device_platform/headless_apps/ | 15:47 |
| javispedro | pdanek: nice | 15:47 |
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| javispedro | ooh, a Qt/C++ API | 15:49 |
| pdanek | javispedro: is that wrong? :D | 15:50 |
| javispedro | no | 15:50 |
| pdanek | :) | 15:50 |
| Wnt | the new price was released: 349¤ https://twitter.com/JollaHQ/status/473490699812630529 | 15:50 |
| javispedro | To implement this type of communication, you can use a QSettings object [...] Each part monitors the shared object or file and is notified when any changes occur. | 15:50 |
| javispedro | I don't think you can do that with QSettings... :/ | 15:50 |
| M4rtinK | id that the “can use at most 3 MB of RAM" thing ? | 15:50 |
| javispedro | ok, at least 50eur discount is somewhat news-worthy! | 15:51 |
| M4rtinK | and has a bunch of other limitations and must be aproved on case by case basis ? ;) | 15:51 |
| pdanek | It's important to note that this limit applies only to the headless part of the app; the UI part can occupy more than 3 MB of memory, if necessary. | 15:51 |
| mornfall | javispedro: hmm, I have thought lion batteries measure the charge internally and export it as data | 15:52 |
| mornfall | li-ion | 15:52 |
| M4rtinK | sure, but try to do anything no trivial in it | 15:52 |
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| M4rtinK | let alone write the headlrss part in Python | 15:52 |
| javispedro | bah, you should all code in ARM assembler. | 15:53 |
| javispedro | 640K ought to be enough for everybody. | 15:53 |
| mornfall | Wnt: hmm, is that good news or bad news? | 15:53 |
| mornfall | (about price) | 15:53 |
| Sail0r | 349 for jolla now | 15:53 |
| Sail0r | nice | 15:54 |
| javispedro | mornfall: good point. | 15:54 |
| pdanek | I do think that headless apps will get better in BB10 in v10.3. | 15:54 |
| pdanek | They're quite moving forward towards multi-tasking | 15:55 |
| faenil | pdanek, there's at least "By default, headless apps can occupy only 3 MB of memory." as a limit | 15:55 |
| pdanek | towards* | 15:55 |
| faenil | assuming you'll be granted the *special* permission to run for more than 20 secs | 15:55 |
| pdanek | :) | 15:55 |
| pdanek | Every OS must have such background functionality, doesn't it? | 15:56 |
| pdanek | How else would you run mp3 player, spotify player, etc. | 15:56 |
| special | I fondly remember trying to use XMPP on windows phone 7 | 15:56 |
| javispedro | pdanek: that does not necessarily mean it EXPOSES such functionality though. | 15:56 |
| special | disconnected every time you switch out of the app | 15:56 |
| faenil | just realized you talked about the 3mb right above | 15:56 |
| mornfall | faenil: hmm, 20 seconds is a bit more than 5 hours at .1% CPU... maybe they don't expect uptimes much higher than that :-P | 15:57 |
| pdanek | :D | 15:57 |
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| javispedro | special: XMPP? Skype did that! On a Lumia 800!! | 15:57 |
| special | javispedro: yeah :> | 15:57 |
| javispedro | I think it was about the most useless device I've ever had. | 15:57 |
| faenil | mornfall, I don't see "20 secs at 100% cpu" anywhere :p | 15:58 |
| special | javispedro: there was one valuable thing about it | 15:58 |
| special | javispedro: I still use that USB cable on a daily basis | 15:58 |
| pdanek | Skype! The legendary P2P messenger! Shame on M$ for screwing it up. | 15:58 |
| pdanek | I loved Skype. | 15:58 |
| M4rtinK | I think XMPP and Profilemaster are the best benchmarks for daemon & hookability support of an OS :) | 15:58 |
| mornfall | faenil: so is that 20 seconds walltime or 20 seconds cpu time? :) | 15:58 |
| mornfall | faenil: I'm not sure how walltime is a useful measure for resource use though | 15:59 |
| faenil | mornfall, I think it's walltime, but not sure | 15:59 |
| pdanek | It's not that clear on http://developer.blackberry.com/native/documentation/cascades/device_platform/headless_apps/ | 15:59 |
| faenil | "Remember that, by default, the headless part of a short-running app runs for 20 seconds when it's invoked. This is usually plenty of time to perform whatever operations are needed, so you may want to stop the headless part before the 20 seconds have elapsed." | 15:59 |
| mornfall | faenil: ah, right, but there are two categories | 15:59 |
| javispedro | that's walltime. | 15:59 |
| faenil | yes | 15:59 |
| faenil | mornfall, the second category needs a special permission | 16:00 |
| faenil | you have to apply for that | 16:00 |
| faenil | but even given that, the memory contraint still hold | 16:00 |
| special | faenil: http://thesaurus.com/browse/special :p | 16:00 |
| mornfall | faenil: short-running apps are supposed to be executed by a trigger I guess | 16:00 |
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| faenil | special, lol | 16:00 |
| javispedro | mornfall: those are like iOS4 "multitasking" then | 16:00 |
| faenil | mornfall, yep | 16:00 |
| mornfall | well, either way, BB is ugly, hence doesn't matter | 16:01 |
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| pdanek | :D | 16:01 |
| mornfall | people only want pretty things these days | 16:01 |
| faenil | mornfall, bb10 is very cool imho | 16:01 |
| faenil | if only sailfish were as performant as bb10 on the same hardware :/ | 16:01 |
| * faenil rolls eyers | 16:01 | |
| faenil | eyes* | 16:01 |
| javispedro | hm | 16:02 |
| faenil | btw, I've gtg, cya people! ;) | 16:02 |
| javispedro | cya faenil | 16:02 |
| pdanek | cya | 16:02 |
| Stskeeps | cya | 16:02 |
| stephg | o/ | 16:02 |
| mornfall | faenil: I blame lipstick :-P | 16:02 |
| javispedro | (if bb10 is qt too, why is it more performing?) | 16:02 |
| pdanek | Stskeeps: you're like spying the channel, always so quiet and out of nowhere you show yourself | 16:02 |
| M4rtinK | insufficient debug tokens! build more debug tokens! :) | 16:02 |
| javispedro | M4rtinK: hahaha | 16:02 |
| mornfall | javispedro: ^ I blame lipstick :) | 16:02 |
| javispedro | M4rtinK: good one :) | 16:03 |
| VDVsx | bb10 HW is a bit more powerful than jolla hw, double ram for example :P | 16:03 |
| javispedro | mornfall: but but but wayland!!!! | 16:03 |
| faenil | javispedro, they have a custom rendering engine | 16:03 |
| M4rtinK | well, it is very very cut down | 16:03 |
| faenil | javispedro, that's the reason why they don't have QtQuick | 16:03 |
| faenil | (but they have QML) | 16:03 |
| M4rtinK | and that | 16:03 |
| faenil | because they've rewritter the rest | 16:03 |
| javispedro | faenil: oh | 16:03 |
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| faenil | and it seems they did a quite good job | 16:03 |
| javispedro | faenil: interesting, and it is obviously closed source? | 16:03 |
| faenil | yep | 16:04 |
| M4rtinK | proprietary and onlyvrunning on BB10 | 16:04 |
| faenil | cascades, you know :P | 16:04 |
| faenil | got to run, cya! | 16:04 |
| javispedro | I ponder who had the idea of commercial Qt licenses... | 16:04 |
| M4rtinK | and no anchors :P | 16:04 |
| mornfall | javispedro: underestimating RAM is the best of all maemo traditions :-) | 16:04 |
| M4rtinK | on the other hand they have a barcode reader element :) | 16:05 |
| mornfall | javispedro: the fact lipstick makes each swapin very visible is just a bonus | 16:05 |
| javispedro | mornfall: specially for a multitasking device, indeed. | 16:05 |
| M4rtinK | (vote for me qurstion on TJC for a barcode reader inclusion to Silica :) ) | 16:05 |
| javispedro | M4rtinK: I suppose it's considered normal these days, but why would a UI toolkit include a Barcode Reader? | 16:06 |
| mornfall | javispedro: because many apps want to use one | 16:06 |
| M4rtinK | qrcodes | 16:06 |
| Stskeeps | pdanek: i have family :P | 16:06 |
| javispedro | cue coffee machine jokes. | 16:06 |
| mornfall | javispedro: it's like a html renderer or something | 16:06 |
| M4rtinK | there are quite a lot of uses for qrcodes | 16:08 |
| pdanek | Stskeeps: so if your child is crying, it's priority to you over flame war in #jollamobile? shame on you! :D | 16:08 |
| M4rtinK | and it is pretty hard to roll your own solution | 16:08 |
| M4rtinK | and if the toolkit has a camera element anyway, it is already half the way there | 16:09 |
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| javispedro | so do like Apple and create a | 16:10 |
| javispedro | CoreBarcode framework | 16:11 |
| Stskeeps | pdanek: you have no idea how much that has applied recently.. | 16:11 |
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| pdanek | :D | 16:12 |
| Sail0r | nice 339 for jolla :) | 16:13 |
| ggabriel | 349 you mean? | 16:14 |
| Sail0r | If you don’t have a #Jolla, but would like a Jolla – 339 EUR at http://t.co/fKt9bN83vi with discount code ‘JR10-0Q4HV’ #fightthefuture | 16:14 |
| ggabriel | ah, nice | 16:14 |
| Sail0r | http://www.jollausers.com/2014/06/get-your-jolla-for-only-339-with-a-10-euro-discount-now/ | 16:14 |
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| ggabriel | loads of people will complain that they bought it at a higher price :P | 16:14 |
| Sail0r | clearance sale before summer holidays? | 16:14 |
| ggabriel | maybe, i won't get another one tho | 16:15 |
| javispedro | clearance sale before apple wwdc? | 16:16 |
| ggabriel | lol, the "key" note | 16:16 |
| pdanek | If you think about it, with recent rise of Linux, are other OSes eventually doomed to lose? | 16:18 |
| pdanek | Like QNX of BB10 or even in servers, Proprietary Unixes? | 16:18 |
| pdanek | Linux will reach the point, where proprietary development won't be able to innovate with such speed? | 16:18 |
| javispedro | tbh I worry that _opensource development_ won't be able to move at such speed (not innovate) | 16:19 |
| Stskeeps | sometimes speed of development is simply grind work | 16:19 |
| Stskeeps | and just on occasion, open source community is a bit .. how do i say this mildly, ADHD-ish? | 16:20 |
| javispedro | that's correct. | 16:20 |
| * javispedro hides | 16:20 | |
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| entil | if one wanted to be mean, http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html even | 16:21 |
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| entil | not sure if it's that current anymore, as much as it was a decade ago | 16:21 |
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| javispedro | entil: check the fedora bugzilla | 16:22 |
| javispedro | they probably still have the automated "it was reported during fedora N and now we're at fedora N+2, close it" bot going around | 16:22 |
| M4rtinK | well, if people were so much in love with proprietary Unix, the would nit all be migrating from AIX & co to Linux :) | 16:23 |
| entil | javispedro: haha, probably even without checking if it's still valid?-) | 16:23 |
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| javispedro | entil: being a bot, it cannot check much... | 16:24 |
| entil | the fred brooks case for rewriting is pretty valid, but the trick is never to release your prototype and acquire a customer base ;) | 16:24 |
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| pdanek | If anyone replied to me, my net dropped, pls re-sent. :D | 16:24 |
| entil | or if you're ridiculously rich and can have a working system online and do rewrites in a prototypal manner at the same time | 16:24 |
| mornfall | pdanek: hmm, QNX has a market that Linux cannot easily reach | 16:24 |
| M4rtinK | we still have that bot | 16:25 |
| pdanek | mornfall: it doesn, but is it relevant in mobile? | 16:25 |
| pdanek | does* | 16:25 |
| mornfall | pdanek: probably not :) | 16:25 |
| mornfall | pdanek: but what is relevant in mobile? most of the stack is not particularly tied to linux as such | 16:25 |
| M4rtinK | its main purpose us IIRC to ping the reporters | 16:25 |
| pdanek | hm | 16:26 |
| M4rtinK | they can then move the bug to a new release or even on rawhide (so it wont be autoclosed) | 16:26 |
| mornfall | pdanek: especially in android, porting it to a freebsd kernel wouldn't be very hard | 16:26 |
| mornfall | pdanek: but in other stacks too (sailfish, tizen, firefoxos, whatever else there is) | 16:27 |
| M4rtinK | as there are nany reports from people who basically vanish, so this improves the mess in bugzilla a bit | 16:27 |
| mornfall | M4rtinK: "improves" as in "moves under the carpet" :) | 16:28 |
| M4rtinK | well, if the bugreport is incomplete or not reproducable and the reporter unresponsive... | 16:29 |
| mornfall | M4rtinK: if those were the only bugs that are swept away, well, yes, you can justify that | 16:29 |
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| lainwir3d | "Jolla’s Financial Loss Amounted To Two-Times More Than Its Revenue" => http://www.finnbay.com/jollas-financial-loss-amounted-two-times-revenue/ | 17:04 |
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| pdanek | :O | 17:05 |
| wmarone__ | not shocking | 17:05 |
| pdanek | In 2012, net sales of the company were €128,000. | 17:05 |
| pdanek | What? | 17:06 |
| Quu | bah, finnbay is sitty site, dont touch that | 17:06 |
| pdanek | Sales? In 2012? | 17:06 |
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| wmarone__ | they weren't even selling in 2012 | 17:06 |
| entil | it's not uncommon for companies to take a severe beating during its early years | 17:06 |
| entil | if they don't start turning in some kinds of profits after years three or four, then it's ok to get worried | 17:06 |
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| entil | (either that or they run out of money on their bank account) | 17:06 |
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| Stskeeps | wmarone__: well, i'm not going to detail, but we did, this is like public data | 17:11 |
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| wmarone__ | ah | 17:12 |
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| pdanek | Stskeeps: and was it expected? or not so much? | 17:12 |
| Stskeeps | i was commenting net sales | 17:13 |
| pdanek | ahhh, in 2012 | 17:13 |
| Stskeeps | i'm with entil though | 17:13 |
| Stskeeps | and just in general about companies | 17:13 |
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| entil | Stskeeps: what were you selling in 2012? dev kits? | 17:17 |
| * Stskeeps hints at 'not going to detail' | 17:17 | |
| lainwir3d | :P | 17:17 |
| FireFly | :( | 17:17 |
| Stskeeps | a company can do sales of goods and services | 17:17 |
| FireFly | oh well | 17:17 |
| Stskeeps | and stating this to tax is obligation | 17:17 |
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| entil | fair enough. sure. | 17:19 |
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| Stskeeps | now time to watch some competitor analysis.. | 17:20 |
| SK_work | Stskeeps: watching apple's show too ? | 17:21 |
| SK_work | well I'm following more than qwatching as it requires quicktime | 17:21 |
| Stskeeps | SK_work: well, i'm in research -- if i only had a jolla phone, i would understand a large portion of the potential customers | 17:21 |
| Stskeeps | n't | 17:21 |
| SK_work | ok | 17:22 |
| SK_work | :) | 17:22 |
| pdanek | TIzen was externally developed by Jolla in 2012! | 17:22 |
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| Stskeeps | pdanek: okay, that made me giggle | 17:23 |
| lainwir3d | :D | 17:23 |
| SK_work | :D | 17:23 |
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| pdanek | The Apple event should have started at 10 am PDT, shouldn't it? | 17:26 |
| pdanek | Half past and nothing. | 17:26 |
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| Stskeeps | it's ongoing | 17:27 |
| pdanek | What?! | 17:27 |
| Stskeeps | anyone with a retail jolla -- do you have /dev/coresight-etb ? | 17:27 |
| stephg | sec | 17:27 |
| stephg | yep | 17:27 |
| Stskeeps | hmm, ok | 17:28 |
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| pdanek | http://www.apple.com/apple-events/june-2014/ | 17:28 |
| pdanek | Do you seriously see the stream here? | 17:28 |
| Stskeeps | i watch live blog; live stream is for the converted already | 17:28 |
| Stskeeps | (safari) | 17:28 |
| pdanek | For me: Available shortly. Please check back soon. | 17:28 |
| pdanek | I don't think Safari only. | 17:29 |
| pdanek | I think it will work in any browser with quick time. | 17:29 |
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| netzvieh | pdanek: well it says it needs safari :D | 17:44 |
| pdanek | But it's bullshit. | 17:44 |
| pdanek | Why in the world, would they make it OS restricted? | 17:45 |
| netzvieh | well, we are talking about apple :D | 17:45 |
| pdanek | I installed Safari and quicktme in my Windows virtual machine, still not enough? :O | 17:45 |
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| pdanek | Still, it's like punch in the face. | 17:45 |
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| ShadowJK | what does 5 rapid led blinks mean? | 18:36 |
| ShadowJK | atleast i think it was 5. screen went black, bit later it blinked green, then it came back to life | 18:37 |
| Stskeeps | did it kill all apps? | 18:37 |
| ShadowJK | yep | 18:37 |
| Stskeeps | lipstick crash | 18:38 |
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| Turski | only way i've got lipstick to crash/freeze is using wlan | 19:05 |
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| Turski | it's totally unusable for me, hopefully it will be fixed with update 7 | 19:05 |
| slate | last ver. I used sailfish I got it once an hour | 19:06 |
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| pdanek | Pied Piper! | 19:12 |
| pdanek | That's how Jolla should have been named. | 19:12 |
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| netzvieh | sounds like something canonical would think of | 19:13 |
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| Turski | slate: and my wild guess is that you are using wlan? | 19:53 |
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| Aard | Turski: did check journal if there's something interesting for us? | 19:56 |
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| Turski | Aard: i've already sent coredumps about that | 19:59 |
| Turski | and i think something useful was found | 19:59 |
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| pdanek | http://crackberry.com/blackberry-windermere-leaked-images-and-specs-turn-online | 21:03 |
| Quu | god thats ugly | 21:05 |
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| pdanek | Quu: it's a high-end phone with what? with a fucking keyboard! let it be ugly or not, keyboard is all I need :D | 21:10 |
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| Quu | yeah true | 21:11 |
| Quu | not sure about the spacebar, looks bit silly | 21:12 |
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| pdanek | N900 spacebar was like that and in the end it was fine | 21:18 |
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| flux | but no numbers | 21:27 |
| flux | meaning more symbols to cram in the few buttons there are | 21:27 |
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| pdanek | same as N900 again, and yet it was very pleasant typing experience on N900 | 21:34 |
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| phlixi_ | n900's keaboard rocked! | 21:38 |
| phlixi_ | that bb has no arrows => no need :) | 21:40 |
| pdanek | it's supposed to have some gesture capability in that keyboard | 21:40 |
| phlixi_ | without arrows i am happy with vkb as well | 21:40 |
| phlixi_ | actually i think arrows are the key, i prefer arrows over no arrows, no matter if vkb or real keyboard | 21:41 |
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| FireFly | N900's keyboard was great | 21:56 |
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