| Dima^_ | even I managed to keep jolla in my han in way tha current closing gesture is easy, I still agree with your idea | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| Dima^_ | *hand | 00:02 |
| * artemma also has problem with reaching the leftmost column of keys on keyboard. Maybe we should add a request for shortening the keyboard so that the leftmost 0.5cm are empty :) | 00:03 | |
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| artemma | heh, large screens are too fashionable nowadays, only Apple seems to care about a lazy or on the go phone use | 00:03 |
| Dima^_ | horizonalt browsing! | 00:06 |
| Dima^_ | but I miss n9's kbd | 00:06 |
| Dima^_ | hate every time to switch between alpha-numerical kbds | 00:07 |
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| Dima^_ | Jolla currend kbd is the worst ever | 00:08 |
| Dima^_ | *current | 00:08 |
| artemma | default android 2.3 (and even 4.0?) keyboard was worse | 00:08 |
| pdanek | wait for MWC, maybe keyboard-half... (I hope) | 00:08 |
| Dima^_ | I don't use android default kbd, but Swift for an android | 00:09 |
| Dima^_ | its actually better than n9's one | 00:09 |
| Dima^_ | also Swift's swiping is better | 00:09 |
| artemma | Swift - yes, I think they even "adjust" button position over time. I mean they touch target area for letter M can actually be shifted from the letter M graphics depending on where you hit it usually | 00:10 |
| Dima^_ | I also love how you can split kbd for two-thumb writing | 00:11 |
| Dima^_ | or minimize kbd and move it around the screen to suitable place | 00:11 |
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| lbt | ooh | 18:29 |
| AL13N | yes, i just realized that you were already ahead | 18:29 |
| * lbt goes to see why merbot was awaay | 18:30 | |
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| motiejus | do you have thoughts on what app capabilities would provide? are you thinking something akin android/tizen application permission model, or something completely different? | 18:31 |
| tbr | lbt: the netsplits made it stall apparently | 18:31 |
| lbt | tbr: yep - seems so | 18:32 |
| tbr | lbt: in addition the config was broken as freenode rearranged DNS records, so reconnect failed | 18:32 |
| * tbr fixed that | 18:32 | |
| lbt | ah - ty very much | 18:32 |
| tbr | np | 18:32 |
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| lbt | motiejus: so that becomes a decent question - but in what area ? I suggest "service access". It also raises the "do we reinvent?" question | 18:33 |
| lbt | I say we should aim to build on best practice - there's a lot to be learned from android | 18:34 |
| Stskeepz | ah, motiejus is here too | 18:34 |
| lbt | however my UID&APPUID idea is due to us being true multi-user vs android having essentially all apps act as my UID too | 18:35 |
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| Stskeepz | motiejus: a general reflection on your friend's reactions to my talk: partly due to the obscurity of the architecture diagram; but also that for many, the entry point for -doing- open source development is top down | 18:36 |
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| joonahoi | oh crap, i'm seeing crashes when recording video with my phone, seems to be reproducable currently (tried five times in a row) | 18:37 |
| Stskeepz | ie, from what you touch and feel - which is the ui, be it command line or a qml one; and then you want to develop further down in middleware | 18:37 |
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| joonahoi | what's the spell for journalctl to get the most detailed logs out? | 18:37 |
| Stskeepz | motiejus: and well, in sailfishos, that's obviously not possible currently | 18:37 |
| Stskeepz | except through things like together.* | 18:37 |
| joonahoi | gonna check the logs first and disk io / cpu usage next | 18:37 |
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| motiejus | @Stskeepz I see. Though the people I spoke about are quite low level software engineers (guys doing kernel stuff in HPC environment), so they are not really into UI. Could very likely be lack of attention. | 18:38 |
| motiejus | @lbt I started contemplating how can we *not reinvent* as much as possible. Though there are a few things to be fixed in Android appsec as well | 18:38 |
| lbt | good :) | 18:39 |
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| Stskeepz | motiejus: yeah - the kernel module thing sucks but given the amount of miracles needed to pull off a phone since april, we didn't need an additional miracle to get wifi working with oss version too ;) | 18:40 |
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| lbt | motiejus: I also think we have to distinguish between functional goals and implementation technology (although the latter often influences the scope of the former) | 18:41 |
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| motiejus | @Stskeepz everyone understands that having blobs in kernel is quite unavoidable in these days, especially for arm devices. Heck, I even have to use some blobs on my laptop. But the UI thing something that completely obscures the whole thing. Having binary stuff on the both sides - that probably caused the confusion | 18:42 |
| lbt | ie we want to prevent apps becoming root; we want per-app service access rules that vary per-user | 18:42 |
| motiejus | per-user meaning per-uid? | 18:42 |
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| lbt | yes | 18:42 |
| Stskeeps | motiejus: yup | 18:42 |
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| lbt | appA running under different UIDs may be able to access contacts API in some but not others | 18:43 |
| Stskeeps | motiejus: i wrote the policy, i know how painful that choice is.. in the end, the motivation there is why open source a large amount of middleware and core: to make it possible to build all sorts of devices on | 18:43 |
| Stskeeps | motiejus: ubuntu touch was practically a QML mockup in short time, on existing middleware | 18:43 |
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| Stskeeps | so what we do is be beneficial for open source.. but in a bit longer term | 18:43 |
| Stskeeps | for when people want to do other things than phones - anybody can do a good UI with the middleware and core that's published | 18:44 |
| * lbt also doubts we could manage the UI in a really open/contributive manner - we'd have to be far too dictatorial | 18:44 | |
| Stskeeps | let's see.. i have hopes | 18:44 |
| motiejus | @Stskeeps @lbt I really love the discussion, must leave now. Hope to continue later today. | 18:45 |
| lbt | hell our UI designers drag our devs all over the place!! | 18:45 |
| Stskeeps | motiejus: see you! | 18:45 |
| lbt | o/ | 18:45 |
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| joonahoi | shieet, now i'm in the boot loop | 18:45 |
| joonahoi | i guess it's not ok to pull the battery off | 18:45 |
| Stskeeps | joonahoi: how low was your battery? | 18:46 |
| joonahoi | hmm, wow. | 18:46 |
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| joonahoi | yes, exactly | 18:46 |
| joonahoi | it did show 48% previously | 18:46 |
| joonahoi | i just plugged in the charger | 18:46 |
| joonahoi | now it booted up and shows 4% | 18:47 |
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| joonahoi | the camera shutdown must have been related | 18:47 |
| joonahoi | not being able to draw enough power | 18:47 |
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| Turski | i haven't had those shutdowns for many days now | 18:48 |
| Turski | oh, this wasn't about shutdown | 18:48 |
| joonahoi | this isn't the same as the previous one | 18:48 |
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| Acce | I had some shutdowns too, when I tried to take video before January update, haven't tried since | 18:49 |
| joonahoi | actually it was, originally. but seems to be related to whatever service is responsible to report the battery state | 18:49 |
| joonahoi | now while i'm plugged in to charger, taking video doesn't shut me down any more | 18:50 |
| Quu | joonahoi: shutdowns only happen on battery | 18:50 |
| Quu | and screen open/on/running/whatever | 18:51 |
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| joonahoi | yup, the camera must have been drawing too much power at that point | 18:53 |
| joonahoi | however there's a bug with indicating the battery level, i just don't know yet how to reproduce it | 18:53 |
| Quu | iirc the battery level is refreshed every 5 minutes if there are enough battery left | 18:54 |
| Quu | the lower it gets, the faster refresh rate gets | 18:54 |
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| motiejus | @lbt there is one addition I feel lacking in Android: stub results from system services, configurable. | 19:12 |
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| motiejus | for example, app might request "wipe device" privileges, and it's up to a user if she wants that to be a stub or a real 'wipe'. same with address book: should app have an empty list granted, or a real address book? | 19:13 |
| motiejus | real device wipe is a true use case: if you install Exchange on Android, it's a privilege it requires. And android actually implemented it. So if you want a company calendar on your cell, you have to agree that Exchange server you are binding into can wipe the device any time. | 19:13 |
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| motiejus | similarly goes for Twitter app asking permissions to network + sms messages. You can't run twitter without accepting that requirement; however, Jolla could take one step further - make it optional. | 19:14 |
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| motiejus | s/jolla/sailfish | 19:14 |
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| joonahoi | Quu: mine was ticking down during the day, it's not like it got kinda stuck there. | 19:19 |
| joonahoi | just seems like it has been calculated wrong at some point | 19:19 |
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| Stskeeps | pull battery 10 minutes | 19:21 |
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| joonahoi | it's currently charging, should i charge it to full first? | 19:21 |
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| sledges | motiejus: "fake/empty address book" was mentioned during roundtable, sadly you had to leave before the talk. but this certainly marries with your idea and is on the list of PoCs in minds | 19:25 |
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| motiejus | @sledges ok. that implies we have to do some permission control on the receiving (service) side. And I am pretty sure this will be difficult to express in polkit/dbus. :-) | 19:26 |
| motiejus | s/And/as | 19:26 |
| jubo2 | 1st non-jolla made app | 19:39 |
| jubo2 | YLE Radios | 19:39 |
| jubo2 | not the 1st made but the 1st to be not made by Jolla | 19:39 |
| jubo2 | that I've installed | 19:39 |
| jubo2 | So I have a phone that I can ssh into but no email nor synccable calendar.. | 19:40 |
| jubo2 | I work on that tomorrow | 19:40 |
| jubo2 | I'm not going to bitch "FIX MAH JOLLAHH!!" tonite | 19:40 |
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| jubo2 | If this thing had a good, consistent, helpful and well working unboxing experience who knows how far it would go | 19:44 |
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| Quu | i had. | 19:44 |
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| jubo2 | that 200M€ that the capital investor put in a half-a-year ago might turn to 2B€ or more | 19:44 |
| jubo2 | I personally thinks there should be folders for sms like in old style phones there was | 19:46 |
| jubo2 | especially to store the "drafts" in draft folders, not lose it beyond ability to recover what was already written | 19:46 |
| jubo2 | this has happened I think twice to me | 19:46 |
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| jubo2 | I can apparently ssh into my phone if I figure out an public IP adress but I cannot read my email nor sync my calendar.. but this was the stuff I'm not going to bitch about tonite | 19:49 |
| jubo2 | that ssh thing would be fun to try.. I assume I need to run some command in the shell to make a ssh password | 19:49 |
| cb400f | nope, just tap around in the settings | 19:50 |
| cb400f | tap, tap.. done | 19:50 |
| cb400f | (developer mode settings that is) | 19:50 |
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| jubo2 | cb400f: but I don't have a password nor a username | 19:52 |
| Yaniel | the username is nemo | 19:52 |
| Yaniel | and the password is set in settings | 19:52 |
| jubo2 | devel settings it is.. | 19:52 |
| Yaniel | in case you never looked | 19:52 |
| jubo2 | my Active Sync activation is hanging.. need to reboot the phone | 19:53 |
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| jubo2 | all the adresses in the development mode are starting with 192.168. which as I know from studies cannot be routed from or to the internet | 19:59 |
| jubo2 | how do I find my external IP address ? | 20:00 |
| jubo2 | or use USB, bluetooth or wlan to access the ssh | 20:01 |
| M4rtinK | try ip a from the terminal ? | 20:01 |
| jubo2 | M4rtinK: yes | 20:01 |
| jubo2 | both | 20:01 |
| Quu | "whats terminal?" | 20:01 |
| M4rtinK | a type of a bus or train station | 20:02 |
| Quu | close enough | 20:02 |
| motiejus | @M4rtinK thanks, never thought about that meaning | 20:02 |
| M4rtinK | that only has the road/tracks going in from only one side | 20:02 |
| jubo2 | M4rtinK: hold on.. which terminal, one on netbook or one on the phone | 20:02 |
| M4rtinK | jubo2: the phone | 20:02 |
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| jubo2 | if latter what command I type into terminal to get my IP address | 20:02 |
| M4rtinK | also, there is an app that can do that | 20:03 |
| motiejus | @jubo2 "ip address" | 20:03 |
| motiejus | or `ip -4 ad` | 20:03 |
| jubo2 | I'm on wlan | 20:04 |
| jubo2 | I think I need to change to HSPA+ modem | 20:04 |
| jubo2 | how do I do that? | 20:04 |
| * jubo2 sips his chillin' out beer | 20:04 | |
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| Tegu | external ip? then use whatismyip or similar web service, for example | 20:05 |
| Tegu | "ip address" command shows the local ip (if you're behind a NAT) | 20:06 |
| Yaniel | and if you are behind NAT there is not much you can do unless you can set up port forwarding on your router or know someone who can | 20:08 |
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| jubo2 | I got ip number from whatismyip.com but ssh'ing in gives a timeout | 20:09 |
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| qqK | whenever i have an intenet connection, my setings app says "syncing" - which always fails, the tranfers menue shows a mail icon - does anyone know the reason for this? | 20:09 |
| Quu | just use the wlan ip.. | 20:09 |
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| Tegu | jubo2: as said, you need to set up port forwarding in order to connect from outside the local network. (given that you can access the NAT settings) | 20:11 |
| Sail0r | just install ip address from store | 20:11 |
| Sail0r | and you see your local ip on cover | 20:11 |
| Quu | Sail0r: for some reason, he wants to use external ip to connect | 20:11 |
| Sail0r | why does anyone want that? :x | 20:12 |
| slate | wants to play with fire | 20:12 |
| Sail0r | cool | 20:12 |
| Sail0r | ^^ | 20:12 |
| juboxi | Sail0r: installing ip address from Jolla store | 20:13 |
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| jubo2 | I'm in. | 20:14 |
| Quu | thats what she didnt believe | 20:15 |
| jubo2 | The netbook was on wrong wifi that's why the NATted 192.168. address wouldn't work | 20:15 |
| jubo2 | so now what..? | 20:15 |
| jubo2 | 'sudo rm -rf /' ? | 20:15 |
| Quu | that still wont work | 20:16 |
| jubo2 | old joke is getting older | 20:16 |
| Quu | like yesterday when you asked the same | 20:16 |
| jubo2 | Quu: yeah.. I know.. succkksy of me | 20:16 |
| Yaniel | I actually did that pretty recently | 20:16 |
| Yaniel | on a ubuntu laptop | 20:16 |
| jubo2 | Yaniel: did it void the warranty ? | 20:16 |
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| Sail0r | a dd is sometimes more effective | 20:17 |
| Sail0r | ^^ | 20:17 |
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| slate | Sail0r: ye and not so known ;) | 20:18 |
| jubo2 | 'dd if=/dev/null of=/dev/sdb' ? | 20:18 |
| lbt | motiejus: on the 'fake contacts'. it seems to me that if an app declares it wants your contacts then you have a choice whether to allow it or not. If you don't want that then don't use the app. | 20:18 |
| Sail0r | if you find dev/sdb on a jolla ^^ | 20:18 |
| Sail0r | but you could also smash it against a wall | 20:19 |
| Sail0r | or put it in a microwave for a while ^^ | 20:19 |
| Quu | or poop on it | 20:20 |
| Sail0r | or make the "will it blend?" test :P | 20:20 |
| Sail0r | or just send it to me :P | 20:20 |
| Yaniel | the blending contest between iPhone 5S and 5C was hilarious | 20:20 |
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| jubo2 | I find wasting of useful resources discourageable | 20:23 |
| jubo2 | What is the point of putting phones in blenders? | 20:23 |
| M4rtinK | we have a nice "delete all" button in the Fedora installer just for this occasion :) | 20:23 |
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| jubo2 | Debian FGJ | 20:24 |
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| motiejus | @lbt I understand your point of purity. However, in case of twitter or exchange client, you often have a choice between convenience (calendar on the phone) and security (wiping the phone/twitter reading sms) | 20:25 |
| jubo2 | I have install guide book for RedHat 5.2 here.. Bought it in '98 | 20:25 |
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| motiejus | of course I have a choice. I can have a second device for "crap" like calendar and twitter (which I do in fact). | 20:25 |
| lbt | motiejus: yep - but otoh there's an ethical/trust thing here. If we lie to the app-developers on your behalf then why would we not lie to you on the app-developers behalf | 20:26 |
| lbt | disable access to contacts - sure, we did that ;) | 20:26 |
| lbt | just looking at a slippery slope I think | 20:27 |
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| vivia | how about... "this app wants to read my contacts? sure, here's an empty contact list, i'll pretend i don't have saved any" | 20:27 |
| vivia | would such a thing make sense? | 20:27 |
| lbt | vivia: yep - I hereby promise to lie for you...... question ... do you trust me now? | 20:28 |
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| motiejus | if app developers want to have access to sensitive data, they should make user believe user benefits from it. Alternatively, if you see trust/ethics as a problem, we might not lie at all: just return errors instead of empty list if user asks for it. | 20:28 |
| lbt | I agree it is painful - I too live in a world where I have to use facebook for pragmatic access to my chosen social hobby | 20:28 |
| lbt | motiejus: at this point in the debate I'm merely offering a point of view | 20:29 |
| * artemma is honestly surprised people just don't reuse the Apple permissions system. Is there anything more convenient in mobile user space than asking for permission on first use after app had a chance to explain the reason? Why are we even discussing the alternatives? | 20:29 | |
| vivia | lbt: if you're my own device and i'm convinced that i have control... | 20:29 |
| lbt | artemma: I've never used an apple ... :D | 20:29 |
| vivia | artemma: for those of us who aren't at all familiar with the apple permissions system, how does that go? | 20:29 |
| lbt | vivia: then don't use apps that you know misuse your data | 20:30 |
| motiejus | @lbt so am I. But again, here is a point of view seemingly compatible to yours. | 20:30 |
| lbt | (I'm playing devils advocate here) | 20:30 |
| vivia | lbt: i'm playing with app-specific passwords most of the time | 20:30 |
| jubo2 | I know what the human-computer interface will look like in 5 yrs time. I gonna do something about this.. post open application to work for DNA | 20:30 |
| lbt | (I use adblock FWIW ... same argument applies) | 20:30 |
| artemma | vivia: when app tries using your photos first time, you see a system warning to allow/reject. If you reject, app cannot bug you with asking anymore, you'll need to visit Phone Settings | 20:31 |
| motiejus | @lbt exactly this reason (do not use the app) prevents me from having and android phone. :-) they lost a customer. | 20:31 |
| vivia | artemma: that sounds very nice indeed | 20:31 |
| lbt | motiejus: yep - I refuse to purchase apple for similar reasons | 20:31 |
| M4rtinK | artemma: oh, those dialogs people just accept without reading ? :) | 20:31 |
| lbt | artemma: that came up at the round table | 20:31 |
| lbt | M4rtinK: and so did that | 20:31 |
| jubo2 | lbt: I say screw 'em all MSFT, NOK, GOOG, AAPL and Sam sung.. | 20:31 |
| lbt | jubo2: I thought we just did? | 20:32 |
| M4rtinK | lbt: yeah, I was there saying just this :) | 20:32 |
| * lbt checks channel ... yep | 20:32 | |
| artemma | vivia: M4rtinK: asking exactly on first use is crucial to the concept: app has a chance to explain the reason exactly at the moment when user has at least a chance to actually read it. Also apps have chance to work after the rejection. Didn't let access to GPS? - Okay, we'll just post images wothout geotags | 20:32 |
| vivia | lbt: i have to admit that my main phone is still the n9, which makes things much easier... | 20:32 |
| jubo2 | Yet I'm going to send email to school tech support desk to ask if we have Microsoft Exchange server instances available to students | 20:32 |
| M4rtinK | artemma: BB10 works in the same way | 20:32 |
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| jubo2 | In the 90's I would not pay anything for any MSFT thing | 20:33 |
| artemma | vivia M4rtinK: imaging mitakuuluu asking for contacts permissions: You reject it, you want to be super secure. Okay, app will still work, you just want be able to import contacts | 20:33 |
| artemma | imagine* | 20:33 |
| M4rtinK | artemma: there is more to it, IIRC -> the app _needs_ to work even if you don't grant it any permissions | 20:33 |
| jubo2 | the 1st thing I bought from MSFT was an Win XP lisence in 2007 when I'd gotten my Intel Mac.. cost me 80€ | 20:33 |
| lbt | artemma: the app should decide/be able to work or not according to refused permissions | 20:33 |
| M4rtinK | artemma: I can tell you it can't do its job but mus not crash | 20:33 |
| M4rtinK | *I -> it | 20:34 |
| lbt | eg mandsatory and optional perms | 20:34 |
| lbt | (that makes the UI even more complex btq) | 20:34 |
| lbt | btw | 20:34 |
| jubo2 | was OEM.. I was like "Isn't this illegal" and the shoppe guy was like "If you're going to install that on a machine and one machine only this is totally legit." | 20:34 |
| lbt | jubo2: I bought a keyboard and a mouse. Does that count? | 20:34 |
| jubo2 | lbt: that counts | 20:34 |
| M4rtinK | well, there should be a mechanism for the app to check if the permission was granted or not | 20:35 |
| vivia | i paid windows tax for some laptops that didn't have the OS-free option... and sadly that counts too :( | 20:35 |
| lbt | M4rtinK: that kind of feature needs to go to the "what do we need to do" list | 20:35 |
| artemma | M4rtinK: yeah, probably app must not crash if permissions are rejected | 20:35 |
| jubo2 | I run 3-4 Debians, 1 Win7 and One Sailfish | 20:35 |
| M4rtinK | so that it can display something like "there would be a map, but you decided to not allow positioning so here you have a funny cat picture" | 20:35 |
| lbt | anyhow I'm updating 3D dice atm | 20:35 |
| * lbt waits for the no-advertising ban ... :D | 20:36 | |
| jubo2 | prlly gonna run NOK E75 with Series 60 version 3 as well for the physical kbrd to toss the quick sms | 20:36 |
| M4rtinK | artemma: I think that's one of two reasons for the all or nothing permissions on Android | 20:36 |
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| jubo2 | *Symbian | 20:36 |
| M4rtinK | 1) allowing lazy app developers | 20:36 |
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| M4rtinK | with 2) being able to push ads more easily | 20:37 |
| vivia | M4rtinK: think about this scenario which i'd love: i don't want this app to search for my gps location, either to save battery, or because i'd be faster to just manually input it, or because i want to plan where i'll go next. can i manually input the location and let the app act like the gps found it? | 20:37 |
| artemma | M4rtinK: I think Android permission system is harmful and hope Jolla won't adopt it. With Android system very few readers read and even they.. mostly accept anyway if they want to have a look at the app | 20:37 |
| M4rtinK | vivia: thaths the third option - granted/not granted/fake | 20:37 |
| jubo2 | vivia: GPS ( not A-GPS ) is a non-network system way of finding your location | 20:38 |
| vivia | M4rtinK: yeah that would be awesome <3 | 20:38 |
| M4rtinK | vivia: would be rather #unlike BTW | 20:38 |
| vivia | M4rtinK: why? | 20:38 |
| M4rtinK | I don't know about any production platform supporting this | 20:38 |
| vivia | ahhh in that szense | 20:38 |
| vivia | -z | 20:38 |
| vivia | yeah | 20:38 |
| motiejus | @vivia it's completely up to the app creator to do this. In fact, in Android I believe it can be quite easy to generalize. | 20:38 |
| jubo2 | i.e. you don't need to do it like this: #1 "Dear, network, where am I?" but you can just #2 "According to data and computation I am here." | 20:38 |
| M4rtinK | still, might be a bit complicated to get right | 20:38 |
| M4rtinK | but kinda fun due to all the ways that could be used to fake the data :) | 20:39 |
| M4rtinK | and you can have the warm feeling that right at this moment you are poisoning someones data mining operation :) | 20:40 |
| jubo2 | xexexe | 20:40 |
| vivia | make it much easier to e.g. look for a restaurant near the hotel while still in fosdem venue | 20:40 |
| vivia | or "don't bother looking for my location, i want to see how to get from A to B" | 20:40 |
| lbt | if (havePerms("GPS") { ... } else { interactWithUser(); } | 20:40 |
| vivia | M4rtinK: or maybe you're denoising it | 20:40 |
| vivia | what should matter to the data mining operation, the user's actual location right now, or the location the user wants to use instead? | 20:41 |
| M4rtinK | vivia: yeah, all Jolla users living on the north pole :) | 20:41 |
| jubo2 | so what fun is being able to ssh in.. can I play nethack ? | 20:41 |
| Yaniel | if you install it | 20:42 |
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| M4rtinK | offtopic: both set location & search around map-view already works in the old modRana interface on the N900 :) | 20:42 |
| Yaniel | I can think of a whole lot of fun besides nethack | 20:42 |
| jubo2 | Yaniel: you know what would rock.. a VNC | 20:42 |
| Sail0r | you are using debian and see no benefits in sshing to your phone? @ jubo2 ^^ | 20:42 |
| vivia | scp-ing files to your phone is much faster than bluetooth-ing them | 20:43 |
| Yaniel | VNC? meh | 20:43 |
| jubo2 | Sail0r: you are right. vous avez raison | 20:43 |
| M4rtinK | yeah, like running a different OS (emacs), completely with a nice editor inside it (vim) ! :) | 20:43 |
| Yaniel | most of the time anyway | 20:43 |
| M4rtinK | both are available from the mer-tools repo | 20:43 |
| jubo2 | Yaniel: If you could use the calendar over VNC with laptop | 20:43 |
| vivia | M4rtinK: emacs in vim? just a nicer platform to run gedit or what? :) | 20:43 |
| Yaniel | systemctl enable brain.service; systemctl start brain.service | 20:43 |
| vivia | M4rtinK: and also i live a bit far from the north pole, and yet i'm tempted to port some free alternative to swype into jolla... then buy one <3 | 20:44 |
| jubo2 | how impossible it would be to run X on a phone and have VNC access to a GUI ? | 20:44 |
| Yaniel | why would you do that | 20:45 |
| Sail0r | you invented n900 :x | 20:45 |
| vivia | jubo2: you mean like http://n9-apps.com/presence-vnc ? | 20:45 |
| jubo2 | holy baby jesus poop | 20:45 |
| vivia | the 770 could do that many many years earlier | 20:45 |
| vivia | except the 770 wasn't a phone :) | 20:45 |
| jubo2 | shit doesn't make sense. | 20:46 |
| jubo2 | it makes fertile soil. | 20:46 |
| Sail0r | also the windows xdas and so on could do that ^^ | 20:46 |
| vivia | nice channel, cheers to whoever brought me here (i still don't know who that was, lol) | 20:46 |
| Yaniel | jubo2: it is possible to run X as a wayland client | 20:46 |
| Yaniel | so in theory.... | 20:47 |
| Yaniel | but don't come here complaining about it :D | 20:47 |
| jubo2 | Yaniel: and I don't have any idea what wayland is | 20:47 |
| vivia | yo dawg, we put some X in y our wayland | 20:47 |
| Stskeeps | we removed libx11 | 20:47 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:47 |
| Yaniel | we can put it back! | 20:47 |
| Yaniel | we have the technology | 20:47 |
| Stskeeps | hehe | 20:47 |
| M4rtinK | we'll get GTK working sooner or later, I tell you! :) | 20:48 |
| Yaniel | jubo2: then better read up, because what you asked was nowhere near a good idea | 20:48 |
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| Yaniel | better use some CLI to poke stuff or... | 20:48 |
| Yaniel | get a damn server to sync with | 20:49 |
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| jubo2 | I don't want to sponsorship MSFT any more then I need to to have Excel, Word and PowerPoint | 20:50 |
| jubo2 | I guess I want CalDav implemented | 20:50 |
| vivia | jubo2: +1.... in fosdem i heard that it's on the way... right people? | 20:50 |
| jubo2 | the I can sync my Linux calendar with my other Linuxen devices yes? | 20:50 |
| Yaniel | I want caldav too | 20:51 |
| Yaniel | jubo2: nno | 20:51 |
| vivia | jubo2: do you have your own caldav server? | 20:51 |
| dunp | owncloud support? | 20:51 |
| jubo2 | vivia: no but if it's Free Libre or Open Source Software I can run it on one of my servers | 20:52 |
| Yaniel | owncloud would be cool | 20:52 |
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| vivia | jubo2: sure, sogo offers a nice web interface apart from the caldav syncing | 20:52 |
| vivia | a bit slow but meh :) | 20:52 |
| jubo2 | vivia: startpaging that | 20:53 |
| vivia | glad to be of help m(_ _)m | 20:53 |
| jubo2 | vivia: thanks, shukran, shukran, SoGo sounds just like the thing I'm looking for | 20:54 |
| vivia | jubo2: where are you from? :) | 20:55 |
| jubo2 | vivia: Finlan | 20:55 |
| vivia | jubo2: then why thanking me in arabic? or isn't that arabic? | 20:55 |
| jubo2 | vivia: yes ar."Shukran" == en."Thanks" | 20:55 |
| vivia | ok :) | 20:55 |
| vivia | and fi."Kiitos"? | 20:55 |
| jubo2 | and "Allahu Aqcbar!! Allahu Aqcbar!!" is always shouted a even number of time if Syrian | 20:56 |
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| vivia | and now i'm going to sleep... hyvää yötä was it? :) | 20:58 |
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| jubo2 | vivia: yes. hyvää yötä | 20:59 |
| jubo2 | vivia: where you from? | 20:59 |
| tango_ | hm phone seems a little too sensitive to rotation, can this be tuned? | 20:59 |
| vivia | jubo2: greece :) | 21:00 |
| jubo2 | vivia: cin cin | 21:00 |
| vivia | :) | 21:01 |
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| lbt | tango_: you can implement denoise filters in the sensors | 21:04 |
| tango_ | lbt: so each app has to do it by itself? | 21:05 |
| lbt | well, yes :) | 21:06 |
| lbt | your app may need different things to mine | 21:06 |
| tango_ | I thought it got the signal about oritentation change from the OS | 21:06 |
| jubo2 | vivia: in Finland we say fi."ole hyvä" == en."Be good." when we mean to say "You're welcome." | 21:06 |
| lbt | tango_: ok, orientation is different - there's a simple orientation interface | 21:06 |
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| M4rtinK | BTW, there was an interesting talk about (android) sensors on FOSDEM | 21:07 |
| tango_ | lbt: I was talking about that | 21:07 |
| tango_ | it seems to be too sensitive | 21:07 |
| lbt | but how do you mean sensitive? | 21:07 |
| slate | M4rtinK: summarize? | 21:07 |
| M4rtinK | on Sunday, actually in the same room room as the Sailfish talk on Saturday | 21:07 |
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| tango_ | lbt: I'm getting this impression, particularly while browsing | 21:07 |
| tango_ | it tends to go landscape even if in my opinion the phone is still upright | 21:08 |
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| M4rtinK | slate: that it is nice to have a microcontroller that fires interrupts on given events (I believe that's how the knocking to wake works) | 21:08 |
| lbt | tango_: worth raising on together | 21:08 |
| lbt | tango_: it may need a bigger margin | 21:08 |
| M4rtinK | slate: and that you can do sensor fusion/virtual sensors | 21:09 |
| lbt | eg rotates at 50degree, not 45 - | 21:09 |
| M4rtinK | slate: like for example augmenting compass data by gyroscope data | 21:09 |
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| tango_ | lbt: I get the feeling it turns at much less than 45 | 21:10 |
| tango_ | lbt: something like 10 or so | 21:10 |
| M4rtinK | slate: or getting better movement direction info by combining GPS bearing, magnetometer & gyroscope | 21:10 |
| M4rtinK | slate: (GPS-only bearing really sucks at low speeds) | 21:11 |
| slate | all sounds reasonable. wonder if noone else is using this. | 21:11 |
| lbt | tango_: here it doesn't turn until you've moved about 70deg from vertical | 21:11 |
| M4rtinK | would be nice to know if some of these techniques are maybe already implemented in the Jolla device ? | 21:11 |
| slate | Or other devices? :) | 21:12 |
| tango_ | lbt: even if the phone is slight slanted away from you? | 21:13 |
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| lbt | yep - jolla browser? or webcat? | 21:14 |
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| tango_ | lbt: jolla | 21:15 |
| lbt | honestly mine seems fine | 21:15 |
| lbt | maybe take a pic of your device rotating the screen at a low angle | 21:16 |
| tango_ | lbt: good idea, I'll try that | 21:16 |
| lbt | it seems unlikely but it is possibly a sensor hw issue | 21:16 |
| lbt | I also have some hacky code here which you could use to test the angles you get from the sensors | 21:16 |
| tango_ | lbt: I'll remind you about this tomorrow | 21:17 |
| tango_ | I'm currently in bed and the jolla is in the other room | 21:17 |
| lbt | ok, np. if it's an issue we can do it via care and I can help with some diagnostics | 21:18 |
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| clau | is there a video with Stskeeps' presentation yet? | 21:22 |
| clau | I've seen the slides, but it's not the same thing :) | 21:22 |
| M4rtinK | it usually takes some time to process all the conference videos :) | 21:23 |
| M4rtinK | even months on some confs, but I believe it is quicker for FOSDEM | 21:24 |
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| * artemma can't find libaudioresource.h in SDK. Some special pkgconfig needed to fetch it? | 21:27 | |
| artemma | sorry, wrong channel | 21:28 |
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| jubo2 | hmmm... Joyce Mayer on Jesus TV | 21:30 |
| jubo2 | she's usually pretty deep and insightful | 21:31 |
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| jubo2 | She gathers indoor domes to her teaching | 21:35 |
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| clau | and she has her own private jet, just like Jesus did ;) | 21:37 |
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| bennypr0fane | hi, I made a backup when prompted before updating Sf to 1.0.3.8, but now I don't know where the backup was stored and how I can restore it. any ideas? backup utility in Settings only offers to create a new one, not to restore. | 21:44 |
| Yaniel | /home/nemo/.vault/ | 21:45 |
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| ShadowJK | gah | 21:47 |
| chem|st | geh | 21:47 |
| chem|st | bennypr0fane: you do see backups as long as you did not factory reset | 21:48 |
| ShadowJK | is there no browser with working desktop mode | 21:48 |
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| raa70 | opera for android? | 21:48 |
| jubo2 | I find it good to find the phone protects itself against USB threats | 21:48 |
| ShadowJK | raa70; nope | 21:49 |
| bennypr0fane | ShadowJK: Firefox | 21:49 |
| chem|st | bennypr0fane: you need to backup .vault with all filepermissions (that does not work over mtp!) | 21:49 |
| chem|st | GO HOME ANDROID YOU ARE DRUNK! | 21:49 |
| jubo2 | I used to have a Symbian Series 60 rel 3 so I know something about succkky protection of self machine against foreign dodgy motha-motha | 21:49 |
| chem|st | jubo2: bless you... | 21:50 |
| bennypr0fane | is ther any way to show hidden files in file browser? | 21:50 |
| jubo2 | chem|st: I coulda bought iPhone 2Gs for the 480€ I coughed up in 2008 | 21:50 |
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| jubo2 | for a NOK E75 | 21:50 |
| ShadowJK | I can send desktop user agent, but css seems set to mobile still | 21:50 |
| * jubo2 puts the whetstoning on repeat in #jollamobile | 21:51 | |
| jubo2 | but I had to hate AAPL | 21:51 |
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| jubo2 | The "Our way or no way" with AAPL, it's worse then MSFT ever was | 21:51 |
| clau | is Opera for Android working now on Jolla? I recall I tried it a while ago and it simply crashed. | 21:51 |
| jubo2 | and the GOOG is too dominant market position | 21:52 |
| pp | § | 21:52 |
| jubo2 | https://startpage.com uses Google results but does not store IPs | 21:52 |
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| ShadowJK | bennypr0fane; same wigth firefox :/ | 21:52 |
| clau | duckduckgo promises something similar | 21:52 |
| jubo2 | One thing I must boring old irc-rerun... when Jolla enlists in stock exchange it's ticker code will be JLLA | 21:53 |
| bennypr0fane | clau ddg have their own search engine it's opensource too | 21:53 |
| jubo2 | funny reference to a good Suedois film | 21:53 |
| clau | afaik, they are using other sources too | 21:54 |
| jubo2 | The Jalla-Jalla movie | 21:54 |
| bennypr0fane | maybe | 21:54 |
| Jesze | ddg is using yandrx as an source | 21:54 |
| bennypr0fane | I think only on request, not automatically | 21:54 |
| Jesze | yandex | 21:54 |
| ShadowJK | clau; the one on yandex doesn't work. Opera has .apk on their webpage, that one works | 21:54 |
| jubo2 | yandex sucks ass | 21:55 |
| jubo2 | I have right username and right password and it won't accept | 21:55 |
| clau | ShadowJK, thanks, I'll probably give it a try | 21:55 |
| bennypr0fane | chem|st: I don't understand what you said about the backup | 21:55 |
| jubo2 | lemme tell ya'all.. | 21:55 |
| bennypr0fane | what is mtp? | 21:55 |
| clau | media transfer protocol? | 21:55 |
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| bennypr0fane | my question about restoring an existing backup | 21:56 |
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| bennypr0fane | jubo2: yandaex is a rpita | 21:56 |
| jubo2 | When I subscribed to MSFT Office 365 subscription I had to enter my details 3 times for the machine to accept it | 21:56 |
| bennypr0fane | jubo2: which machine | 21:57 |
| jubo2 | _3 times_, that's how much MSFT didn't want me as client | 21:57 |
| jubo2 | bennypr0fane: Win7 | 21:57 |
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| bennypr0fane | jubo2: maybe it knows you like opensource | 21:57 |
| bennypr0fane | so it makes you pay | 21:57 |
| jubo2 | I gonna install this SoGo server soon | 21:58 |
| bennypr0fane | has anyone lost any data after updating to 1.0.3.8? | 21:58 |
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| bennypr0fane | I lost all my Noto (notes&Todo) content it seems | 21:59 |
| clau | bennypr0fane, I think there were reports about lost settings for third party apps. Do a search on together.jolla.com, you should get something on the subject. | 21:59 |
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| jubo2 | Doesn't these nubs have media rich notes system..? | 22:00 |
| jubo2 | have audio/video/drawing/camera shot/screenshot/text hybrid ? | 22:01 |
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| jubo2 | I was so bored in 2008 as the NOK E75 did not provide this | 22:01 |
| bennypr0fane | thanks clau | 22:03 |
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| Abby24 | I give you some pictures. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69 | 22:03 |
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| bennypr0fane | wut? | 22:03 |
| Hartzi | bot | 22:03 |
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| Abby69 | I'm sure you will LOVE MY pictures! | 22:04 |
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| jubo2 | You guys really need DNA to hire me to develop their customer service process and whatever they feel like developing | 22:05 |
| bennypr0fane | chem|st: about that backup, would you mind explaining one more time what you said earlier? | 22:05 |
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| jubo2 | World peace is attainable for 15,000,000,000€ - http://PalestineTunnel.org | 22:07 |
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| jubo2 | If people worked 24 hrs / d it would take under 3 hrs to make that money | 22:09 |
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| jubo2 | World total sigma/summed product | 22:09 |
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| jubo2 | So we could have a shot at world peace in our lifetime | 22:10 |
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| jubo2 | Trans-Palestine Express shuttle service, 50 km, 200km/h, 15 minutes travel time | 22:14 |
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| jubo2 | only 15B moneys | 22:14 |
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| raa70 | world peace... | 22:16 |
| raa70 | nope | 22:16 |
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| jubo2 | #mmm.. I'm on 2 x 2 x 333mg acamprosate | 22:16 |
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| jubo2 | Acamprosate is a anti-alcohol craving med .. It really helps, I'm living proof :D :D | 22:17 |
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| raa70 | well, i work at a brewery | 22:18 |
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| jubo2 | tomorrow I will verify the all my email credentials by installing it on the new Debian7 email program | 22:19 |
| jubo2 | I tried to extract the credentials from my Outlook | 22:20 |
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| jubo2 | but it did not want to give them up | 22:20 |
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| jubo2 | so tomorrow I install whatever the FF email client is called to make sure I have the datas right | 22:21 |
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| jubo2 | whoa.. I found "fuzzy pinyin" as light up led in the UI | 22:28 |
| jubo2 | like it's totally possible to use numbers instead of tonal marks | 22:28 |
| jubo2 | then again the only chinese besides zh."Xie Xie" == en."Thanks" is zh."Women bu shi Ameri guo ren. Women shi Fin lan ren. Byao pai Byao pai." == en."We're not American. We're Finnish. Don't shoot! Don't shoot!" | 22:30 |
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| jubo2 | 'k .. I think I'm getting it.. | 22:33 |
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| jubo2 | the Jolla is a linux computer on HSPA+ network | 22:33 |
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| Yaniel | now that didn't take you long :D | 22:34 |
| jubo2 | that's awesome but I'd rather had a calendar that syncs and email that is receivable and sendable | 22:36 |
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| jubo2 | if the email and cal don't work the fact that I can ssh in doesn't help a toss | 22:36 |
| Yaniel | calendar & mail work perfectly fine for me | 22:37 |
| jubo2 | The recommendation to get MSFT Exchange account and use that to sync calendars | 22:37 |
| Yaniel | haven't tried sending mail but calendar sync works in both directions and mail is received properly | 22:37 |
| jubo2 | I thought this was Linux-Land | 22:37 |
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| Yaniel | well, Exchange ActiveSync is probably the single best thing microsoft have done | 22:38 |
| Yaniel | beats IMAP anytime | 22:39 |
| jubo2 | MSFT can do good. I don't belive U | 22:39 |
| jubo2 | Yaniel: IMAP may be succkky but it's not as half-as-crappy-as POP3 | 22:40 |
| wmarone | imap may be bad, but it doesn't require microsoft permission to use | 22:42 |
| Yaniel | and is actually supported in places :D | 22:42 |
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| jubo2 | Yaniel: I ask tomorrow our tech support if we have accessible Exchange server instances paid by our school | 22:43 |
| jubo2 | I tried the onmicrosoft.com free thingy but to be honest it didn't work | 22:44 |
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| jubo2 | Yaniel: If it's legit to want MSFT goodies can we has MSFT SkyDrive for Linux ? | 22:46 |
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| jubo2 | Can I install irssi on mah shell ? | 22:47 |
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| Yaniel | on the jolla? sure | 22:59 |
| Yaniel | if you find a package or build one if it does not exist yet | 23:00 |
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| jubo2 | Jesus TV reigns | 23:04 |
| jubo2 | awesome chant | 23:04 |
| jubo2 | onoeonoe Israel hihhulointi is coming on next.. change da channel.. | 23:05 |
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| jubo2 | yeah.. channel 11 has Fame on | 23:09 |
| jubo2 | a musical show from the very early 80's | 23:09 |
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| jubo2 | I like the phone, sorta, the sshd is cool | 23:17 |
| jubo2 | Hold on.. | 23:17 |
| jubo2 | You ready for totally crazy shit that cost few 10€s | 23:17 |
| jubo2 | 4 cameras on-phone | 23:18 |
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| jubo2 | one forward, one back, one left, one right | 23:18 |
| jubo2 | you'd be able to 360 degree photograph | 23:18 |
| jubo2 | I mean the cameras cost a 5-10€ | 23:19 |
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| jubo2 | 4 cameras of over 90 degrees vision | 23:20 |
| jubo2 | I don't know why I give this commercial infoz up for free, I really don't.. | 23:21 |
| jubo2 | The 1st one with 4 cams of over 90-degree vision in one HW and SW package | 23:22 |
| jubo2 | and the multi-megapixel cameras cost tens of €uroz max | 23:23 |
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| chem|st | bennypr0fane: there is a .vault folder in your home directory - that is the backup (git) - you need to save it somewhere else if doing a factory reset and copy it back afterwards | 23:24 |
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| chem|st | bennypr0fane: https://together.jolla.com/question/53/how-user-can-take-backups-out-of-device/ | 23:26 |
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| jubo2 | the foldable keyboards.. | 23:28 |
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| jubo2 | if they cost £76 | 23:28 |
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| jubo2 | to my eyes that reads "free money for anyone willing to compete" | 23:29 |
| jubo2 | with the bluetooth keyboard and reclining solution for urr display | 23:30 |
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| bennypr0fane | chem|st: thanks! jubo2: what you talkin about? | 23:33 |
| jubo2 | Jolla-brand foldable-into-suit-inner-pocket full qwerty kbrd sheer win | 23:33 |
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| bennypr0fane | where? | 23:34 |
| jubo2 | I mean it obviously fits | 23:34 |
| jubo2 | bennypr0fane: it connects with bluetooth and turns on everytime it is unfolded | 23:35 |
| jubo2 | it's the most obvious "Other device" | 23:35 |
| bennypr0fane | got an url? | 23:35 |
| jubo2 | besides just a "Phone you can ssh into." | 23:35 |
| bennypr0fane | obviously | 23:35 |
| bennypr0fane | everybody's waiting for it to happen | 23:35 |
| jubo2 | bennypr0fane: they sell it for 7-bit ascii qwerty layout | 23:36 |
| jubo2 | I don't think it's possible to purchase one with scandinavian kbrd setup | 23:36 |
| bennypr0fane | i only knew about one guy at tmo making it himself | 23:36 |
| bennypr0fane | jubo2: WHO sells them? | 23:36 |
| jubo2 | bennypr0fane: It's Verbatim | 23:37 |
| jubo2 | You remember like CD-R's and DVD-R's Verbatim, Verbatim | 23:37 |
| jubo2 | and if the price is £76, it's screamin' for competition | 23:38 |
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| bennypr0fane | well there isn't any competition so far | 23:38 |
| bennypr0fane | you have a link to that? | 23:39 |
| bennypr0fane | they're first, that works in their favor | 23:39 |
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| bennypr0fane | jubo2: if you mean this: http://www.verbatim.com/prod/accessories/keyboards/wireless-mobile-keyboard/ that's obviously too big | 23:42 |
| jubo2 | I belive that's gonna fit in a suit's inner pocket | 23:43 |
| artemma | Which sort of #otherhalv would james bond have.. | 23:44 |
| jubo2 | if it's too big then just give up the dedicated number keys | 23:44 |
| jubo2 | You people should just do what jubo-jubo say and fund the 15,000,000,000€ that http://PalestineTunnel.org 's gonna cost to build and operate a few years | 23:45 |
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| bennypr0fane | it needs to be an actualy other HALF, i.e. about the same size as the handset, not an other triple | 23:54 |
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| ShadowJK | the other half would be more appropriately named the other fiftieth | 23:57 |
| bennypr0fane | ShadowJK: hum, how'd you get that number? | 23:59 |
| ShadowJK | handwaving guess | 23:59 |
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