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| adnap | Will the Jolla phone work on 700 or 1700 MHz (T-Mobile U.S. 4G LTE)? | 10:04 |
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| Stskeeps | https://together.jolla.com/question/19749/jolla-dev-user-meetup-in-tampere-or-helsinki/ | 11:03 |
| Yaniel | ooh | 11:03 |
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| Quu | ooh | 11:27 |
| entil | ooh | 11:27 |
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| TemeV | ooh | 12:04 |
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| Aard | what, a month after we had the first jyvaskyla meeting they're now considering doing the same in tampere or helsinki? :p | 12:10 |
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| Tofe | Aard: it spreads from the center to the borders :) | 12:10 |
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| Tofe | But I won't be able to attend that one, I'm only in Finland twice a year, so there's little chance that it will coincide | 12:12 |
| Yaniel | phew, I was already thinking that it had broken irc | 12:12 |
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| ln- | http://www.zdnet.com/south-korea-rules-pre-installed-phone-bloatware-must-be-deletable-7000025533/ | 13:07 |
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| Stskeeps | is that a hint that tutorial should be uninstallable? | 13:08 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:08 |
| Yaniel | yes :D | 13:08 |
| ln- | no, i meant it as a hint that jolla probably already complies with the rules :) | 13:09 |
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| tbr | many people I've talked to really appreciate that | 13:13 |
| tbr | also it allowed me to deflect an argument during my C-Base presentation. "Why is the android compat layer not open source" - "Nobody stops you to install an open source compat layer, actually I'd very much like to see people develop that" | 13:14 |
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| M4rtinK | tbr: yeah, I would say wed eventually need that | 13:19 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: would be the same as DOSBOX or Wine | 13:20 |
| tbr | and nothing stops the open source community to do that | 13:20 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: to run Android abandon-ware | 13:20 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: exactly | 13:20 |
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| tbr | as a first step you could probably just get away with an aosp build that renders into a virtual framebuffer | 13:20 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: now that we see it is perfectly doable | 13:20 |
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| M4rtinK | tbr: but someone else has to do it, kinda out of my league :) | 13:21 |
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| mornfall | tbr: well, re. bloatware, it seems you can not-install it, but uninstalling is a different matter (without dev-mode anyway) | 14:08 |
| tbr | mornfall: huh? you can uninstall all apps but the first two rows | 14:09 |
| mornfall | tbr: I don't remember what was first 2 rows originally, but yandex store can't be uninstalled | 14:10 |
| tbr | mornfall: if you remove android layer, then it removes yandex, no? | 14:11 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: that's interesting, could be a bug [unless it's a dependency to something else] | 14:11 |
| ggabriel | ^ | 14:11 |
| mornfall | is there some obvious way to uninstall the android layer that I missed? | 14:11 |
| mornfall | other than a device reset I mean | 14:12 |
| Yaniel | yandex store is bundled with alien dalvik | 14:12 |
| mornfall | ah ok, through the store | 14:12 |
| Yaniel | thus you can't uninstall only yandex via UI | 14:12 |
| Yaniel | there are some workarounds involving the terminal though | 14:12 |
| mornfall | I didn't even know you can uninstall apps via store until now | 14:13 |
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| mornfall | is there any other app besides aliendalvik that doesn't provide a launcher icon (and hence can't be uninstalled from the launcher)? | 14:14 |
| GentSir | How well is Sailfish running on Android hardware? I saw sledges install of it on a Nexus 4 | 14:14 |
| Yaniel | mornfall: aliendalvik is uninstalled if you uninstall yandex via launcher | 14:14 |
| mornfall | Yaniel: yandex doesn't have an uninstall button in the launcher for me | 14:15 |
| Yaniel | oh, same here it seems | 14:15 |
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| * artemma was thinking again and again of what to do with app privacy, how to balance app stats needs and user privacy interests. Especially when Jolla team is anyway too busy to add security any time soon. And then.. eureka! Let's make it mandatory for app developers to *tell* what they gather! | 14:30 | |
| * artemma https://together.jolla.com/question/19863/make-it-mandatory-for-app-store-description-to-tell-about-the-app-privacy-policy-in-simple-terms/ :) | 14:30 | |
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| FireFly | mornfall, Yaniel: I think that was changed in 1.0.2.5, because I'm sure I removed yandex earlier (and accidentally uninstalled the android compat that way) | 14:33 |
| mornfall | artemma: completely un-enforceable | 14:34 |
| Yaniel | ah | 14:34 |
| mornfall | artemma: as such, false security | 14:34 |
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| mornfall | FireFly: :-) yeah, unless you'd get a confirmation dialog it'd be pretty surprising I guess | 14:34 |
| artemma | mornfall: nope, that is the only enforceable way. Ask any lawyer out there :) | 14:34 |
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| FireFly | Yeah, agreed | 14:35 |
| mornfall | artemma: good luck enforcing laws over anonymous app submitters that have leeched tons of user data | 14:35 |
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| artemma | I know many tech people think it's only cool algorithms that can protect your privacy. Nope, it's decision not to use unknown binaries. As long as you install 3rd party apps, it is about promises anyway | 14:36 |
| mornfall | artemma: actually, privacy can be enforced, but blurbs of text are not going to do that | 14:36 |
| artemma | mornfall: now we are talking about important details, but details. Sure promises (even without legal part) work way better if the promising party can actually be identified in a trusted way | 14:37 |
| mornfall | artemma: there's no such thing as "identified in a trusted way" | 14:37 |
| mornfall | not on the internet, anyway | 14:38 |
| * artemma has heard something about certificates and sending signed papers to app stores ;) | 14:38 | |
| M4rtinK | artemma: as long as you display a yes/no dialog to the user with a rationale | 14:38 |
| mornfall | artemma: ah, right, that obviously won't kill harbour at all | 14:38 |
| M4rtinK | artemma: and they can actually dismiss it, when so be it | 14:38 |
| M4rtinK | *then | 14:38 |
| dschoepe | and just access control (i.e. what android does) isn't quite enough to ensure that no information is leaked | 14:38 |
| dschoepe | some apps might legimately require for example internet access and access to your contacts to perform their function | 14:39 |
| artemma | you will never achieve 100% security in modern world if you actually want to use something. Question is how far you go to achieve good enough privacy. Me thinks that actually promising something is a pretty strong enforcement tecnique for many-many people | 14:39 |
| M4rtinK | artemma: but if there is not an option to decline it, it is just spyware | 14:39 |
| mornfall | dschoepe: that's mainly because most android handsets lag horribly with updates and there's a number of local exploits in old versions | 14:39 |
| artemma | also most of people don't give a shit about privacy, really. What they care about: they don't like to be negatively surprised | 14:39 |
| mornfall | artemma: why doesn't it work for any of the stores out there, if it's so easy? | 14:40 |
| artemma | mornfall: it actually does :) | 14:40 |
| M4rtinK | still, I won't be adding any useless statistics gathering to any of my apps | 14:40 |
| * artemma was sending his papers to some app stores and using other company-related verifications to the others | 14:40 | |
| mornfall | artemma: there's been a number of incidents where apps had to be pulled because they had malware in them | 14:40 |
| dschoepe | mornfall: consider facebook, to take an extreme example. I might want it to add profile pictures from FB to contacts in my address book, and I want facebook to have internet access, but I don't want it to send my contacts back to the FB server | 14:40 |
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| dschoepe | then you need something more fine-grained, the android mechanism doesn't help even if it has no bugs whatsoever | 14:41 |
| M4rtinK | ever | 14:41 |
| dschoepe | and languages providing information flow control aren't quite ready for end-user applications yet | 14:42 |
| artemma | guys, it's not like I want to push something down everybody's throat. I see a problem with users being pissed off about zero security and sudden discoveries in Jolla. Open and clear declarations/promises are one possible solution to it | 14:42 |
| mornfall | artemma: only it's not a solution... | 14:42 |
| artemma | what's best for Jolla *right now* is that forcing to declare privacy attitude in a *standard and common* way requires nearly zero tech work | 14:42 |
| artemma | mornfall: sure, waiting for magical security to be installed to Jollas next month is way better solution :) | 14:43 |
| mornfall | artemma: what you suggest could open jolla to serious liability | 14:43 |
| artemma | okay, I've got that you don't believe in the power of mandatory promises and conditions, I get it | 14:43 |
| artemma | well, that's the whole point of this discussion: to figure the community attitude | 14:44 |
| M4rtinK | complete corresponding application source code is the best declaration :) | 14:44 |
| dschoepe | M4rtinK++ | 14:44 |
| mornfall | M4rtinK: not really, but it's a step in the right direction | 14:44 |
| mornfall | M4rtinK: security audit of even small pieces of software is horribly expensive | 14:45 |
| artemma | M4rtinK: possibly if 1) it was actually possible for apps of interest 2) if there was enough security experts to analyze even low interest apps | 14:45 |
| M4rtinK | the planed Mer OBS <-> OpenRepos bridge might be really interesting for this :) | 14:45 |
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| mornfall | artemma: planting a vulnerability in an application is pretty easy, spotting it is really hard... and the author can plausibly deny planting it | 14:46 |
| * artemma thinks that actually having privacy policy is better than having none. What can be wrong with it? I only propose to actually make it mandatory and structure in a way that actually could be read and understood by the user | 14:46 | |
| mornfall | artemma: we are talking tens of thousands euro for a C++ application in review | 14:46 |
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| mornfall | artemma: well, the best implementation of that is a checkbox in harbour submission form: "Is this app spyware? yes/no" | 14:49 |
| artemma | mornfall: you don't really apply so binary thinking in reality, do you? | 14:49 |
| M4rtinK | mornfall: still, for simple applications it might be much easier to spot shady stuff | 14:49 |
| mornfall | artemma: kinda like the "are you a terrorist?" questionnaire by US | 14:49 |
| GentSir | mornfall: Please tell me that is a joke | 14:50 |
| mornfall | GentSir: which part of it? | 14:50 |
| artemma | You are talking about bad guys. Sorry, I can't see Jolla people seriously play against them anyway. I am optimizing for useful apps and clear communication between devs and users | 14:50 |
| GentSir | mornfall: The "are you a terrorist" questionnaire. That's funny in a really sad way | 14:51 |
| mornfall | GentSir: yeah, applying for ESTA (the lightweight US visum) gives you a form where you check off that you aren't a terrorist, you aren't an internationally sought criminal and stuff like that... | 14:51 |
| GentSir | mornfall: That's hilarious. Sorry to sidetrack conversation, I didn't know that existed. | 14:52 |
| * artemma thinks the biggest problem here is communication. When mornfall talks about spyware and me talking about stats gathering and AB-testing, that's useless labeling of unclear stuff. So let's make it clear first of all and then users will decide if it's spyware-enough for them or not | 14:53 | |
| mornfall | artemma: I think your mistake is assuming that anyone besides you wants to track their users. | 14:53 |
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| mornfall | artemma: You want to, well, declare that in whatever way you want to. Don't make this into a general problem. | 14:54 |
| mornfall | Because it's not. | 14:54 |
| artemma | well, I do know that many-many-many (and couple of times more "many" do) :) Just look how many app AB-testing business are out there. Google Analytics, Mixpanel and Flurry come to mind in one second | 14:54 |
| * artemma can | 14:55 | |
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| Pnuu | artemma: add a check-box in your app settings "send statistics to dev", initially unchecked | 14:55 |
| * artemma can't see how declaring a privacy policy in simple form is harmful, sorry | 14:55 | |
| Pnuu | should do the trick | 14:55 |
| mornfall | artemma: So how many apps with user tracking actually hit harbour so far? | 14:55 |
| artemma | mornfall: that's exactly why we are talking about it now, let's try discussing situation when it is small. Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but I actually do want big guys to start shipping apps for Jolla. You know likes of Facebook, Instagram, Angry Birds | 14:56 |
| mornfall | artemma: All those folks already have huge privacy policies. | 14:57 |
| artemma | Pnuu: I am not big fan of exactly this solution (I would prefer permission to send at least "app started" event ON be default), but that could be one solution. My point is there's value in declaring things in a standard way user could see/expect already inharbour | 14:57 |
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| Pnuu | artemma: only if it affects the functioning of the app | 14:58 |
| Pnuu | if it's only for "statistics collection", there has to be a way to turn it off | 14:59 |
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| mornfall | artemma: You are solving a non-problem, really. Calling home on every app start by default fits every reasonable definition of spyware. You want to make spyware, sure, it's your call. | 15:00 |
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| artemma | Pnuu: whatever community or jolla product managers conclude on. My point is really about making it a part of app promise. How exactly promise is to be structured is another story, though important | 15:00 |
| mornfall | artemma: But forcing everyone else through hoops so that you can get spyware onto harbour is not exactly popular. | 15:00 |
| artemma | So you somehow think that not having any privacy promise somehow protects you a hundred of other apps you installed and have no idea about. I have to rest my case then | 15:01 |
| mornfall | artemma: Yes, spyware will be called out like it has been. | 15:02 |
| mornfall | artemma: Any amount of promises from the author won't convince me either way. | 15:02 |
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| artemma | sad. It would convince me. | 15:02 |
| mornfall | And you call me gullible. :) | 15:02 |
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| artemma | mornfall: well, I've got that you don't trust developer promises by now. Hard to me to understand, but that's okay. Whole point of discussion is to see what community thinks about making privacy policies mandatory and easy to understand/control | 15:03 |
| GentSir | A "privacy promise" is unenforceablle. In the end, it's up to each user to ensure their device is malware/spyware free. | 15:04 |
| mornfall | artemma: I choose to trust particular people, just like in real world. They can turn bad, or their accounts can be compromised. But trusting a random stranger on the internet? No way. | 15:04 |
| artemma | mornfall: a hard working person you are.. Checking the authors of all the apps on your smartphone.. would've been super-hard work for me | 15:05 |
| mornfall | artemma: A privacy statement is just like those "verified" icons and padlocks on websites. | 15:05 |
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| artemma | ah, you also don't trust the site certificates, I see. | 15:06 |
| gena_ | is it possible to add fedora repo to jolla? | 15:06 |
| gena_ | phone | 15:06 |
| mornfall | artemma: I said websites, not browsers. Also, watch this -- http://www.thoughtcrime.org/software/sslstrip/index.html | 15:06 |
| tigeli | gena_: it won't probably work :) | 15:07 |
| leinir | are you generally able to add, say, an ubuntu repository on your opensuse installation? :) | 15:07 |
| mornfall | artemma: Security is hard, and you can't handwave it away. | 15:07 |
| gena_ | ubuntu is deb | 15:07 |
| leinir | less sarcastically, though, what gave you the impression you'd be able to do so? :) | 15:07 |
| gena_ | they both rpm | 15:07 |
| tigeli | mornfall: comeon.. you are referring 2009 stuff :D | 15:07 |
| leinir | and deb is a blob of binary data with some metadata | 15:07 |
| mornfall | leinir: the suffix is the same | 15:08 |
| leinir | not unlike rpm | 15:08 |
| mornfall | leinir: you can install .debs on rpm with alien! or other way around | 15:08 |
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| mornfall | tigeli: ah right, I forgot security became easy in the meantime. :D | 15:09 |
| tigeli | mornfall: no, but there are newer stuff to break ssl already ;) | 15:09 |
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| leinir | gena_: to answer your question, though, no, adding a fedora yum repository to the libzypp based jolla device would probably be less than straight forward :) | 15:10 |
| gena_ | ah, they are different in format... sad | 15:11 |
| Yaniel | assuming you find a armv7hl repo in the first place | 15:11 |
| tigeli | gena_: and the architecture is not the same either for sure :) | 15:11 |
| mornfall | Yaniel: with compatible glibc, libs, ... | 15:11 |
| Yaniel | and that yes | 15:12 |
| mornfall | gena_: building from source is a substantially better bet | 15:12 |
| tigeli | and even then the depencies might not match | 15:13 |
| tigeli | unless linking staticly | 15:14 |
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| gena_ | i think fedora is binary compatible with jolla - it is armv7hl | 15:15 |
| Waitee | default fedora is x86 | 15:16 |
| gena_ | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM/F20/Installation | 15:16 |
| gena_ | unsure which one is default =) | 15:16 |
| Waitee | :D | 15:17 |
| Waitee | well mostly people use fedora on an x86 laptop or desktop | 15:17 |
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| gena_ | i just do not want to rebuild every package, wanted just to mount some big supported repository - and install all emacs, mc, less and everything else needed to work in console. | 15:21 |
| gena_ | and install in easy way - with some console-based tool | 15:22 |
| Pnuu | I think mer-tools has less and emacs | 15:23 |
| ShadowJK | stskeeps: re "nokia spent ages to take a device and turn it into nokia style power management" | 15:23 |
| ShadowJK | Jolla seems to use less power than N900 and N9 even if you take wakelock and prevent android-style forced sleep.. did you guys accidentally do something to make pm work well in non-android fashion too? :P | 15:25 |
| GentSir | Is anyone actually using the Jolla for daily use? How well does it work? | 15:26 |
| Pnuu | I use it | 15:26 |
| Waitee | i use it | 15:26 |
| gena_ | GentSir, I do. | 15:26 |
| Waitee | works fine | 15:26 |
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| gena_ | i expected less. | 15:27 |
| Waitee | i suppose it's not as good as say nexus 4 or 5 but it's very good | 15:27 |
| gena_ | But phone is fully functional | 15:27 |
| artemma | GentSir: my colleague is super happy about Jolla stability | 15:27 |
| dschoepe | Works nicely for me too, although I haven't set up a satisfactory way to synchronise calendars between jolla and my PCs yet | 15:27 |
| dschoepe | note that google calendar sync is one-way | 15:27 |
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| gena_ | All hardware working fine, all basic functions are fine, interface is very good. | 15:28 |
| ShadowJK | something weird with the android side of things. pdf files saved in opera don't have correct permissions to be opened by android-acrobatpdf | 15:28 |
| Waitee | sometimes when i doubletap to open screen or press the power button it thinks it has unlocked but it hasnt and thats annoying | 15:28 |
| GentSir | I need to see how hard it is to get one in the US now | 15:28 |
| artemma | GentSir: I find that Jolla ideas are good, but half baked. Top 3 issues: it's just damned slow; Often I can't launch apps without closing old ones manually; Sometimes it enters endless shutdown cycles | 15:28 |
| Yaniel | artemma: why can't you launch apps? | 15:28 |
| artemma | by "slow", I mean slow in reacting to my touches mostly | 15:29 |
| GentSir | I expected there to be plenty of issues at launch, that's normal for any product | 15:29 |
| Yaniel | I have had Settings crash at launch a bunch of times (which is really annoying) | 15:29 |
| artemma | Yaniel: I guess it's out of memory often and doesn't know how to use swap files | 15:29 |
| Yaniel | hmm | 15:29 |
| RoKenn | artemma: actually it reacts better to my touches than my nexus 7 | 15:29 |
| GentSir | I finally retired my E71 and got a generic Android phone | 15:29 |
| M4rtinK | for the matter, it has 512MB of swap | 15:29 |
| artemma | RoKenn: so Nexus sucks more :) | 15:29 |
| gena_ | GentSir, you may check yourself - there is site which lists all known jolla problems. and evaluate how important are they for you. | 15:29 |
| RoKenn | yes, also my nexus 7 crashes more often... | 15:30 |
| M4rtinK | might be good to check how much of it is used if that issue happens again | 15:30 |
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| GentSir | gena_: Only good news site I know of for Jolla is JollaTides | 15:30 |
| gena_ | GentSir, https://together.jolla.com/questions/ | 15:30 |
| M4rtinK | talk.maemo.org & together.jolla.com | 15:30 |
| artemma | Yaniel: When I start Browser, Facebook, Tweetian and App store, it's quite expected that next app will fail to launch unless I close something | 15:30 |
| M4rtinK | others are just reposting stuff from there anyway :) | 15:30 |
| GentSir | gena_: I didn't know of that site, thanks! | 15:31 |
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| entil | dunno if anyone cares about stuff like this, but I wrote something about the experience of developing an app for sms imports; http://mjt.nysv.org/blog/importing-smss-into-jolla-the-tale-of-an-app/ | 15:31 |
| dschoepe | GentSir: if you're in the US you also have to check if your carrier uses frequencies supported by jolla for 3G | 15:32 |
| artemma | RoKenn: I am talking about things like reacting to unlocking double tap half-a-second late, sometimes freezing for about 0.2 secs when I pull pulley menu, super slow and then suddenly fast list scrolling in android | 15:32 |
| dschoepe | I think it doesn't support some bands used by some (many?) US carriers | 15:32 |
| GentSir | dschoepe: I use T-Mobile 3G, last I checked they work with pretty much anything. I've been thinking about waiting until it's well supported on Android phone hardware and installing on that. | 15:33 |
| artemma | RoKenn: and my favorite: not unlocking phone on incoming call. Then I press Power button to unlock, apparently it unlocks due to "some activity happened" and half a second later locks back (apparently noticing Power button press and thinking it's a command to lock back) :) | 15:33 |
| gena_ | gsm chip is 4 band | 15:33 |
| gena_ | so any gsm provider will be fine | 15:34 |
| M4rtinK | artemma: looks like a classical race condition | 15:34 |
| GentSir | gena_: Yes, but most of us like at least 3G data speeds :) | 15:34 |
| gena_ | i've heart that not every 4g provider is supported - but any 3g | 15:34 |
| M4rtinK | stalled input even queue | 15:34 |
| dschoepe | gena_: apparently not all 3G providers are supported either: https://together.jolla.com/question/489/requested-jolla-hardware-with-north-american-3g-frequencies/ | 15:35 |
| artemma | M4rtinK: looks like old good Windows joke: - Dad, show me how multitasking works? - In a minute, son, when I finish formatting the diskette :) | 15:35 |
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| artemma | except on Jolla it's more like "wait a sec until I try reconnecting to network. And then a couple of times more just to be sure" | 15:36 |
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| gena_ | dschoepe, there is no answer on the link. Here http://www.gsmarena.com/jolla_jolla-5457.php i see 4 bands, and both 850 and 1900 are supported | 15:38 |
| RoKenn | artemma: there nexus 7 is more consistent... it ignores some touches completely, even repeatedly :) | 15:38 |
| gena_ | dschoepe, will definetely check t-mobile next time i will be in new york =) | 15:39 |
| * artemma sometimes wonders how well Jolla would function on modern high end hardware with 2GB or RAM | 15:39 | |
| RoKenn | artemma: did you check memory consumption? I noticed my phone is already using swap memory slightly, with just few apps open | 15:39 |
| dschoepe | gena_: people in this thread seem to complain about 3G in the US: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91821&page=9 | 15:40 |
| artemma | RoKenn: nope, I didn't. Hard for me to imaging there can be anything else than lack of memory, when closing Browser helps launching the next app | 15:40 |
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| * RoKenn takes a note to optimize his app for low memory usage | 15:41 | |
| gena_ | dschoepe, that's news for me... thanks for link... hm | 15:41 |
| Yaniel | all apps should be | 15:41 |
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| mornfall | artemma: btw, if you are so desperate to get usage data, why don't you ask Jolla to run opt-in statistics of application use? They run it, give us guarantees that the data is properly anonymized and there's a publication delay (say 1 week), and you get your use statistics... | 15:47 |
| mornfall | artemma: that's what you want, isn't it? | 15:47 |
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| artemma | mornfall: I did, we'll see how much people care :) https://together.jolla.com/question/10956/provide-some-basic-or-not-so-basic-app-usage-stats-for-the-developers/ | 15:49 |
| artemma | I am not desperate at all. I do want to know how much my apps are used and I want to know if feature A or feature B helps. I care about being clear and understandable | 15:50 |
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| mornfall | artemma: you sure make a lot of fuss about it... | 15:51 |
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| ajaijjaj | GentSir: I use Jolla everyday, the only annoying thing is that 3G data is disabled regularly. I have to restart my phone at least once a day to get it back on track. | 16:19 |
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| ShadowJK | I have the opposite problem, it regulary drops off wifi and goes on 3g. I have to manyall disable/enable 3g data to make it reconnect wifi :) | 16:20 |
| ajaijjaj | artemma: but as a user I don't want that anyone knows how much I use an app :D | 16:20 |
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| artemma | ajaijjaj: you should be able to at least know about it, right? Maybe you'd prefer knowing how to discover it in some standard way :) | 16:22 |
| ajaijjaj | reading code? observing network traffic? :) | 16:23 |
| Pnuu | checkbox in the settings, where it's possible to enable it if wanted | 16:24 |
| ajaijjaj | yeah, off by default | 16:24 |
| ajaijjaj | would be great to know it before installing too. In case there is alternative app that does not call home | 16:24 |
| Pnuu | ofc | 16:24 |
| M4rtinK | well I would sure not use any app that calls home | 16:26 |
| M4rtinK | might consider using it if it asks first and you can disable it without it being ever active by itself | 16:27 |
| M4rtinK | but would still use another one that does not do it at all, if available | 16:27 |
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| ballock | any trick how to copy stuff from browser and paste it into terminal? | 16:52 |
| tbr | ballock: IIRC firefox supports c&p, not sure though if alien dalvik will forward that to sailfish paste buffer | 16:52 |
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| Yaniel | fingerterm copypaste does not work | 16:53 |
| Yaniel | I think that is more of an issue there | 16:53 |
| ballock | Yaniel: exactly | 16:54 |
| Yaniel | it may have worked on harmattan, but does not on sailfish | 16:54 |
| smokex | ssh in and copy paste from pc | 16:54 |
| faenil | it's an easy fix | 16:54 |
| ballock | no pc :( | 16:54 |
| faenil | actually, pasting should work, copying less likely | 16:55 |
| ballock | other ideas? | 16:55 |
| ballock | pastebin from commandline? | 16:55 |
| ballock | nay, would still need the url for the paste | 16:56 |
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| faenil | the current problem is more "how do you copy from browser" :p | 16:57 |
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| tbr | any volunteers to fix fingerterm? | 16:58 |
| tbr | it's open source, you know | 16:59 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: IIRC, there is a pull request already | 16:59 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: seen it mentioned today/yesterday on IRC | 17:00 |
| tbr | 0 open pull requests | 17:00 |
| ballock | any built package? | 17:01 |
| ballock | otherwise I'd need to build it and I need the copy/paste to also create a build env | 17:02 |
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| tbr | https://github.com/nemomobile/fingerterm/commit/90734807208ccf762bf0888291228be3e8823ae6 is the only thing mentioning copy paste | 17:02 |
| ballock | but if you provide me a link I'll get to my pc once at the desk | 17:02 |
| faenil | tbr, that should fix copying from it | 17:02 |
| faenil | pasting should work already? | 17:03 |
| Pnuu | ballock: build env: https://sailfishos.org/ | 17:03 |
| tbr | you can also just build that on OBS | 17:03 |
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| M4rtinK | tbr: https://github.com/tpikonen/fingerterm/commit/c234213d4c0307c1289021fc2157c22fe01bf1d4 | 17:12 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: found it here: https://together.jolla.com/question/11704/fingerterm-terminal-does-not-use-system-clipboard/#post-id-19733 | 17:12 |
| tbr | M4rtinK: fail, that person should just make a pull request! | 17:13 |
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| ballock | great, thanks for the links | 17:23 |
| ballock | I got to a PC so at least will get the blocking stuff done | 17:23 |
| ballock | btw, OBS link? | 17:23 |
| tbr | ballock: http://build.merproject.org/ | 17:24 |
| tbr | create an account on https://bugs.merproject.org/ first | 17:24 |
| tbr | merproject uses LDAP | 17:24 |
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| AL13N_lappy | so, what did i miss...? did something interesting happen? | 18:33 |
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| ottulo | since when? | 18:36 |
| AL13N_lappy | i donno | 18:36 |
| AL13N_lappy | ottulo: since 7 months ? :-) | 18:37 |
| AL13N_lappy | j/k :-) | 18:37 |
| ottulo | well, other than the "leaked" update 1.0.3.3 I don't know of anything too recent | 18:37 |
| AL13N_lappy | oic | 18:38 |
| ottulo | well within that 7 month frame as well :P | 18:38 |
| AL13N_lappy | hahaha | 18:38 |
| AL13N_lappy | i didn't hear about the leaked update | 18:38 |
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| ottulo | coderus posted a link to jollasuomi blog on #sailfishos a moment ago | 18:38 |
| ottulo | basically someone had issues with the phone and took it to DNA service, when it returned it had ver 1.0.3.3 on it | 18:39 |
| AL13N_lappy | heh | 18:39 |
| AL13N_lappy | and... did it fix his issue :-)? | 18:39 |
| ottulo | well, seeing as he got it in a bootloop the update did resolve that | 18:40 |
| AL13N_lappy | ic, but then the 1.0.2.5 would've fixed that too | 18:41 |
| ottulo | however now no apps are available afaict | 18:41 |
| ottulo | oh, that started the bootloop | 18:41 |
| ottulo | or more like, that got rid of first bugs but later got into bootloop | 18:41 |
| AL13N_lappy | ic | 18:41 |
| ottulo | after removing battery at a bad time, according to the blog | 18:41 |
| AL13N_lappy | nice | 18:42 |
| AL13N_lappy | ah well, we'll get it in a few days anyway | 18:42 |
| ottulo | yeah, most likely | 18:43 |
| ottulo | they wouldn't try installing that unless it was practically ready to roll out I think | 18:43 |
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| AL13N_lappy | yeah | 18:45 |
| AL13N_lappy | maybe DNA has access to the beta installs because of their deal | 18:46 |
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| ottulo | something like that | 18:48 |
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| Stskeeps | just before anybody gets any good ideas, installing an update before store advertises it to you, may mean that it'll utterly and completely brick your device | 19:02 |
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| AL13N_lappy | Stskeeps: i hadn't expected anything else | 19:04 |
| AL13N_lappy | don't worry, i can wait a week | 19:04 |
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| ottulo | sounds like the DNA people really did mess up :P | 19:06 |
| ottulo | not that the device IS bricked, but I don't think they're supposed to be doing that | 19:06 |
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| FiXion_ | anyone have a link to how I update from 1.0.0.5 to latest? | 19:43 |
| FiXion_ | just got my jolla.. it says theres an update. I can install apps fine. I have wifi working | 19:43 |
| FiXion_ | but if I tap on the update info in notifications - nothing happens. | 19:43 |
| Stskeeps | FiXion_: settings->about product , pulley menu -> check for updates | 19:43 |
| FiXion_ | I tried going into "about product" - and choose "update device".. still nothing. | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | if that doesn't work, did you ever touch developer mode or developer updates | 19:44 |
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| FiXion_ | I enabled developer mode | 19:44 |
| FiXion_ | to try if that changed | 19:44 |
| FiXion_ | I haven't enabled developer updates | 19:44 |
| FiXion_ | I have a shell :) | 19:44 |
| FiXion_ | no apt-get nor yum.. | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | did you touch developer updates in any way? | 19:44 |
| FiXion_ | could I use the packaging tool ? | 19:44 |
| FiXion_ | no. | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | what does ssu lr say | 19:45 |
| FiXion_ | under settings -> dev mode ? | 19:45 |
| FiXion_ | or is that a shell command ? | 19:46 |
| Stskeeps | in terminakl | 19:46 |
| FiXion_ | adaption0, +1 +aliendalvik + apps + eas + hotfixes + jolla + store | 19:47 |
| FiXion_ | home is disabled | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | which urls in particular, i just need the domain name | 19:47 |
| kor | has anyone had issues with their vibrator? | 19:47 |
| FiXion_ | store-repository.jolla.com | 19:47 |
| FiXion_ | and releases.jolla.com | 19:47 |
| FiXion_ | are the two urls | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | okay, that ought to work then | 19:47 |
| FiXion_ | it says it sees an update too. | 19:48 |
| FiXion_ | I figured I could just run apt-get dist-upgrade equivalent | 19:48 |
| kor | as in, it doesn't work a lot or unless you nudge the phone | 19:48 |
| FiXion_ | do not know what that is though | 19:48 |
| FiXion_ | and guy isn't working | 19:48 |
| FiXion_ | and that isn't.. | 19:49 |
| FiXion_ | any shell command to run update ? | 19:50 |
| FiXion_ | when guy is broken? | 19:50 |
| FiXion_ | gui | 19:50 |
| FiXion_ | arghh | 19:50 |
| * ggabriel was about to ask which guy | 19:50 | |
| RoKenn | FiXion_: did you install the email client? | 19:51 |
| kor | no-one's had issues with their vibrator? | 19:51 |
| ggabriel | kor: there are a few posts in tjc about how the jolla vibrates | 19:52 |
| RoKenn | FiXion_: that article might help you: https://together.jolla.com/question/3816/jolla-store-crashes-unable-to-update-system/ | 19:52 |
| kor | ggabriel: well, i was just wondering if other people have had a failing vibration motor | 19:53 |
| ggabriel | kor: you haven't described what your issue is | 19:53 |
| ggabriel | you just said "issues" :) | 19:53 |
| ggabriel | there are some problems indeed | 19:54 |
| ggabriel | but tbh, i wouldn't know how to blame it on sw or hw | 19:54 |
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| kor | 21:47:17 < kor> has anyone had issues with their vibrator? | 19:54 |
| kor | 21:48:11 < kor> as in, it doesn't work a lot or unless you nudge the phone | 19:54 |
| ggabriel | kor: well, yeah, that isn't too much tbh | 19:54 |
| ggabriel | is there anything that you do to consistently reproduce it? | 19:55 |
| kor | yes | 19:55 |
| kor | csd vibration test | 19:55 |
| ggabriel | kor: ok, so that fails? :) | 19:55 |
| kor | then when you well, slap the phone on the thin side, it starts vibrating | 19:55 |
| kor | it's like what happened to my n900 | 19:55 |
| kor | it's motor started failing | 19:55 |
| kor | it's just, the age of the device, i wouldn't think that this should happen | 19:56 |
| ggabriel | i'm not particularly familiar with the current issues, but that one doesn't happen to me | 19:56 |
| ggabriel | i suggest you check tjc | 19:56 |
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| ggabriel | and if nobody reported anything similar and has been ack'd as a sw issue, talk to jolla@care.com | 19:56 |
| ggabriel | as you may have a faulty vibrator, as you suggest | 19:56 |
| ggabriel | fwiw, none of my smartphones had a broken vibrator ever | 19:57 |
| FiXion_ | sorry for going away | 19:57 |
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| FiXion_ | just got new lenovo e335.. it does not work very well with linux mint | 19:57 |
| FiXion_ | RoKenn: yes. installed email client | 19:57 |
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| kor | ggabriel: i've had it happen. i used to fix the n900 vibrator by enabling a test and smacking the phone against something springy until it started working again | 19:59 |
| FiXion_ | RoKenn: thanks. store does indeed seem to crash now | 20:01 |
| M4rtinK | percussive maintenance, eh ? :) | 20:03 |
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| FiXion_ | yay. | 20:04 |
| FiXion_ | that was why. | 20:04 |
| FiXion_ | the store had broken itself :) | 20:04 |
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| gena_ | leaked 1.0.3.3 | 20:24 |
| gena_ | where can i find it? | 20:24 |
| ggabriel | ? | 20:24 |
| Nicd- | leaked? | 20:25 |
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| Yaniel | not | 20:25 |
| ggabriel | source? | 20:25 |
| Yaniel | some guy went to dna to get his device flashed and they flashed it with 1.0.3.3 | 20:25 |
| ggabriel | oh | 20:25 |
| gena_ | ah | 20:26 |
| gena_ | ok... | 20:26 |
| Yaniel | was it on www.jollasuomi.fi | 20:26 |
| ggabriel | stinky little hobbits | 20:26 |
| clau | if true, it means it's just around the corner. | 20:26 |
| ggabriel | well, this is the last week of january :) | 20:26 |
| tbr | given that store doesn't seem to like that device, not the smartest move | 20:26 |
| clau | which seems reasonable, since Jolla wants to do one upgrade per month, and January is almost over. | 20:26 |
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| Yaniel | who says that it is 1.0.3.3 they are going to release? | 20:27 |
| Yaniel | might as well be 1.0.3.7 | 20:27 |
| tbr | indeed | 20:27 |
| ggabriel | or 1.0.3.5 | 20:27 |
| Yaniel | but DNA has 1.0.3.3 for testing | 20:27 |
| ggabriel | :) | 20:27 |
| clau | does the number matter? | 20:27 |
| Nicd- | 2.0! | 20:27 |
| Yaniel | only that there is no guarantee of its correctness | 20:28 |
| clau | I just want to see as many bugs as possible fixed | 20:28 |
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| ln- | clau: apparently it does if you can't even use the store with 1.0.3.3. | 20:28 |
| Yaniel | actually even the name might change from what we knoe :D | 20:28 |
| Nicd- | TunaFishOS 1. | 20:28 |
| clau | lmao | 20:28 |
| Nicd- | 1.0 | 20:28 |
| Yaniel | maybe 1.0.3.3 is one you'd get with those infamous 'developer updates' | 20:28 |
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| ln- | dragging a pulley menu in landscape mode would need some kind of acceleration factor. | 20:37 |
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| tbr | http://ask.slashdot.org/story/14/01/26/1950237/ask-slashdot-life-after-n900 - discuss! | 20:47 |
| sharpneli | 'Jolla might be an option once they get the QWERTY "other half" available.' | 20:48 |
| sharpneli | This pretty much is the whole issue. With QWERTY it would be perfect. Without it, naaah. | 20:49 |
| tbr | meh, never looked back | 20:49 |
| tbr | and I've had a N950 | 20:49 |
| sharpneli | For me I'm still constantly missing my HW keyb. I've noticed I use IRC/write mails etc on my phone way less now that I have jolla | 20:50 |
| sharpneli | It's just so much more tedious that I rather wait until I'm at a real comp | 20:50 |
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| FireFly | I'm weird, I preferred the N900's keyboard to the E7's (which I believe is similar to the N950's) | 20:52 |
| FireFly | Might be due to muscle memory though | 20:52 |
| tbr | I used all three and preferred the N950 | 20:54 |
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| tbr | the E7 had those upward edges on the side | 20:54 |
| FiXion_ | how do I install android "market place".. it seems there's several to choose from which can be downloaded (aptoid and onemobile and.. ?) ? | 20:55 |
| FiXion_ | I've installed the "android support" from jollas store | 20:55 |
| sharpneli | tbr: People are different. There is no one form factor perfect for everyone | 20:55 |
| sharpneli | I'm quite certain that keyboard other half will produce rather sisable increase in sales when it's out | 20:55 |
| sharpneli | if it's out | 20:55 |
| sharpneli | I'll cry if it never comes :( | 20:55 |
| FireFly | FiXion_: there are some hackish ways of getting Google Play in there, or if you don't want to go with that I think Yandex is the sanctioned store | 20:55 |
| tbr | fdroid store is nice | 20:56 |
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| Quu | yandex is bit.. poop | 20:58 |
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| qqK | if i install an app from a downloaded apk, how do i update it? | 21:00 |
| qqK | can i just install the newer apk? | 21:00 |
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| Quu | probably | 21:01 |
| FiXion_ | tbr: does fdroid store have angry birds? :) | 21:01 |
| FiXion_ | don't need anything but that :) | 21:01 |
| Acce | sharpneli: There is already someone in TMO who is going to make 100 pieces of HW keyboard TOHs. The price is salty 100 euros though | 21:01 |
| qqK | fdroid only has open source apps, i think | 21:01 |
| Acce | I'm going to wait and see if the people who get their TOHs from him say it's usable or not | 21:02 |
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| sharpneli | Acce: Shut up and take my money! | 21:02 |
| Quu | Acce: iirc he wont buy/build/thingies before he gets full 100 people | 21:03 |
| Acce | Quu: oh | 21:04 |
| Acce | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91535 | 21:04 |
| Acce | there's the link anyway, if sharpneli wants to become one of those 100 | 21:05 |
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| Acce | I like his slogan, though "Made in a bedroom, just like you" | 21:06 |
| tbr | FiXion_: hint you can have more than one store | 21:06 |
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| FiXion_ | tbr: I figured that :) | 21:11 |
| dunp | http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Smartphone-Concept-Multiple-Displays-dual-screen,news-12691.html | 21:11 |
| dunp | i like this idea | 21:11 |
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| Quu | touchscreen-keyboards are poopy because yer fingers dont know where they are | 21:13 |
| Quu | but yeah, looks cool | 21:13 |
| tango_ | Quu: BS | 21:13 |
| dunp | but better in vicinity | 21:13 |
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| tango_ | oh sorry | 21:13 |
| tango_ | Quu: right | 21:13 |
| Quu | tango_: ok? :D | 21:13 |
| tango_ | Quu: sorry I thought you were saying the opposite of what you said | 21:14 |
| dunp | need only make "clear" keys on top | 21:14 |
| FiXion_ | tbr: But I'm weary of just downloading software from the internet and running it with root privs on my phone :) | 21:14 |
| FiXion_ | don't want to start behaving like a windows user | 21:14 |
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| FiXion_ | so I figured I should atleast ask others.. before I went and did something potentially stupid :) | 21:15 |
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| tbr | FiXion_: indeed | 21:16 |
| dunp | display under keyboard and transparent keys on it | 21:17 |
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| artemma | Today my Jolla was playing music on headset output and then suddenly started playing music on main speakers.. for half a second. Was even a little dangerous as it was in a car and phone sound was at maximum. Anybody had similar experience? https://together.jolla.com/question/19967/bug-suddenly-main-speaker-was-used-instead-of-headset-out/ | 21:17 |
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| dunp | e-ink displays or similar | 21:18 |
| Quu | dunp: that sounds pretty good | 21:18 |
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| Stskeeps | artemma: eep | 21:18 |
| AL13N | the qwerty OH would be alot better if it was without notation, so they can be changed at will to whatever | 21:18 |
| AL13N | artemma: was anything else going on, on it? | 21:19 |
| artemma | AL13N: not that I noticed. I wrote at together | 21:19 |
| dunp | no rotation | 21:19 |
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| artemma | possibly some notification happened, but definitely no SMS or incoming calls | 21:19 |
| dunp | but keyboard plus e-ink display | 21:20 |
| artemma | and definitely no notification sound happened | 21:20 |
| artemma | AL13N: phone itself was just liyng, I wasn't touching it for at least several mins | 21:20 |
| AL13N | artemma: did you check journalctl with the timestamp? | 21:21 |
| dunp | and keyboad can be modified by apps.. etc games own layout for it.. | 21:21 |
| artemma | AL13N: nope, can do it right now actually, I still remember time approximately, was like an hour ago | 21:22 |
| AL13N | dunp: better to have a physical one with blank keys, so that you can program them to whatever | 21:22 |
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| dunp | AL13N, I mean that the program can change the background image of a keyboard | 21:24 |
| artemma | AL13N: sorry, it looks like that time is overwritten already | 21:24 |
| AL13N | journalctl -a | 21:24 |
| AL13N | artemma: 1 hour ago is already gone? that would be odd... did you reboot it? | 21:24 |
| artemma | Hmm :/ Logs begin at Sun, 26 Jan 2014 22:55:46 +0200, end at Sun, 26 Jan 2014 22:56:11 +0200. | 21:25 |
| artemma | funny first line | 21:25 |
| AL13N | did you by any chance change the storage option of journalctl? | 21:25 |
| artemma | and it looks like the messages that are there are indeed from this timeframe | 21:25 |
| artemma | AL13N: I don't know, probably not | 21:26 |
| * artemma is not much into *nix tools | 21:26 | |
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| AL13N | artemma: i'm asking because i've seen some journalctl tunable stuff going around | 21:26 |
| artemma | nothing I did consciously at least | 21:27 |
| AL13N | artemma: try journalctl -a | less ? | 21:27 |
| artemma | maybe there's some limit: there are quite a lot of messages for that minute | 21:27 |
| AL13N | how do you do that? getting alot of messages? | 21:27 |
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| artemma | well, there are lots of messages from many sources: mitakuulu, then a lot about network connections | 21:28 |
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| artemma | e.g. Jan 26 23:22:26 localhost jolla-settings[2362]: [D] NetworkService::setPath:447 - void NetworkService::setPath(const QStrin | 21:28 |
| artemma | g&) "Method "GetProperties" with signature "" on interface "net.connman.Service" doesn't exist | 21:28 |
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| artemma | and lots of Jan 26 23:11:35 localhost mission-control-5[1027]: GLIB CRITICAL ** tp-glib - tp_cli_connection_interface_power_saving_call | 21:29 |
| artemma | _set_power_saving: assertion `TP_IS_CONNECTION (proxy)' failed | 21:29 |
| special | both norma | 21:29 |
| special | l | 21:29 |
| Quu | nothing special on those. | 21:29 |
| artemma | I am not saying it's bad, just telling that there are several hundreds line for this one minute logged | 21:29 |
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| artemma | AL13N: bash: less: command not found | 21:30 |
| TSCHAKMac | Hi. I had to change the security settings, and passphrase on my WPA2 WLAN. I told my Jolla to forget the network, and i attempted to reconnect. It is simply sitting there with a spinning circle, not asking me for a passphrase. | 21:31 |
| AL13N | artemma: ah yes, i installed less | 21:31 |
| AL13N | try: journalctl -a | more | 21:31 |
| AL13N | but, yanno, less is more | 21:31 |
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| AL13N | :-) | 21:31 |
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| artemma | AL13N: with more it says Logs begin at Sun, 26 Jan 2014 23:12:22 +0200, end at Sun, 26 Jan 2014 23:22:19 +0200. | 21:32 |
| artemma | hmm | 21:32 |
| artemma | how can it be different? | 21:32 |
| artemma | too late anyway though | 21:32 |
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| netzvieh | artemma: logs get overwritten fast | 21:33 |
| netzvieh | they set a low size limit | 21:34 |
| M4rtinK | no wonder if it is spammed like this | 21:35 |
| M4rtinK | IIRC, you can modify the journald config to make it persistent | 21:35 |
| M4rtinK | a good use for 64 GB uSD :) | 21:35 |
| AL13N | ah, ic | 21:36 |
| AL13N | artemma: you didn't install syslog also? | 21:37 |
| artemma | AL13N: I didn't modify any tools to my memory | 21:37 |
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| AL13N | artemma: ok, i'm out of ideas | 21:38 |
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| artemma | AL13N: thanks for trying. Next time I'll try checking logs sooner | 21:39 |
| netzvieh | artemma: increase the size limit for journald in /etc/systemd/journald.conf | 21:39 |
| netzvieh | gives you more time to react | 21:40 |
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| netzvieh | TSCHAKMac: do you have dev mode enabled? | 21:45 |
| TSCHAKMac | yes, and actually, after I attempted it a second time (it timed out to screensaver), it worked…very strange | 21:45 |
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| netzvieh | maybe there is a bug with the forget function, https://together.jolla.com/question/16366/bug-forget-function-does-not-fully-forget-wifi-networks/ might be related | 21:47 |
| netzvieh | but not sure, don't know connman yet | 21:47 |
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| ottulo | someone could make an app that runs on start-up and snaps a picture using the front camera, then uploads it along with geotag to user-specified service | 22:41 |
| ottulo | or sends as email | 22:42 |
| artemma | ottulo: why? | 22:42 |
| ottulo | artemma: if stolen and thief manages to bypass security, they'd reveal their location + face | 22:42 |
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| artemma | ah :) | 22:43 |
| artemma | ottulo: but they would hear the camera, no? | 22:43 |
| ottulo | artemma: hear, how? I've got no shutter sound active | 22:43 |
| artemma | yeah.. then possible probably | 22:44 |
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| ottulo | for now I'm just adding a text "GPS TRACKING ENABLED!" to bootscreen along with my email add. :P | 22:44 |
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| netzvieh | ottulo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgmO32IdwuE and s/daughter/Jolla/g ? ^^ | 22:46 |
| ottulo | :P | 22:48 |
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| ottulo | actually, I have a feeling this is not bootscreen I'm editing | 22:51 |
| ottulo | unless it's the same image used for shutdown | 22:51 |
| netzvieh | what are you editing? | 22:51 |
| ottulo | https://openrepos.net/content/nokius/shutdown-graphic-changer | 22:52 |
| ottulo | trying ^that out | 22:52 |
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| ottulo | well, it works | 22:56 |
| ottulo | and yeah, it's only at shutdown, bootscreen is different | 22:56 |
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| netzvieh | bootscreen might be hardcoded in the boot.img | 23:12 |
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