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| Claudy | i wonder if i could read out the data on an nfc ring i got a while ago | 00:03 |
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| keithzg | Claudy: Well, N8 isn't 4 inches, it's only a 3.5" screen. I mean, even just using my N9 (which is a hair under 4"), using an N8 briefly the phone seemed really small. | 00:50 |
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| * keithzg carries around an N9 and a Nexus 4 every day; the Nexus 4 makes the N9 seem far too small for browsing the web, but for messaging, podcasts, music and of course slipping it into and out of pockets, the small size of the N9 seems way better. | 00:55 | |
| keithzg | Oh oops, I guess I was actually directing the N8 comment at Yaniel :) | 00:56 |
| * keithzg is probably going a bit crazy, waiting on word on whether his Jolla arrived at its destination in France. | 00:57 | |
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| Claudy | heh | 01:00 |
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| Claudy | mines finally arrived yesterday in amsterdam | 01:01 |
| Claudy | i got to get it today <3 | 01:01 |
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| tbr | good moaning | 06:00 |
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| thp | joonahoi: ;) there's https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.thp.petals3d.android for android | 06:33 |
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| AL13N | tbr: moaning eh... | 06:52 |
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| joonahoi | thp: oh there actually is an android version, great! | 07:35 |
| joonahoi | so no hard feelings, i got my phone back :D | 07:36 |
| Stskeeps | there's definitely a big market for games that can be played while breastfeeding.. | 07:36 |
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| joonahoi | yup, she can't play any reactive games and most puzzles require some constant zorro moves as well | 07:38 |
| joonahoi | for added difficulty, we have twins | 07:39 |
| Stskeeps | advanced user level | 07:44 |
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| flux | hmm, does sharing notes via email from Notes app work? | 08:08 |
| AL13N_work | whoa twins | 08:09 |
| flux | hmm, actually it maybe does but it uses some attachment type thunderbird doesn't show :-o | 08:09 |
| flux | and of course the notes aren't files but in a database.. at least sqlite3 is available for reading them :) | 08:13 |
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| Tofe | how do I restart Dalvik ? is it a systemd service ? | 08:21 |
| Stskeeps | systemctl stop aliendalvik.service ? | 08:21 |
| Tofe | I'll try 'restart' :) | 08:21 |
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| Tofe | That went well, thanks | 08:23 |
| joonahoi | flux: check the message source from thunderbird | 08:24 |
| joonahoi | it will show you the mime blocks if there's an attachment | 08:24 |
| joonahoi | content-type in the header should give you hint too | 08:25 |
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| flux | yes, I saw the message in the source view | 08:32 |
| flux | but I decided to read the database file instead. I first failed to copy-paste it to terminal, somehow the paste button wasn't active.. | 08:32 |
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| Wnt | has anyone else experienced a problem with the alarm clock that it doesn't start alerting when it should? | 08:34 |
| Pnuu | I've seen someone mention that here | 08:34 |
| Stskeeps | 1.0.2.5? | 08:34 |
| Wnt | instead it starts alerting ~5 minutes after I have unlocked the screen | 08:34 |
| Wnt | Stskeeps: Yes, running 1.0.2.5 | 08:34 |
| Stskeeps | and how soon between setting and alarm | 08:34 |
| Wnt | Stskeeps: multiple hours | 08:35 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 08:35 |
| Wnt | this happened twice this week and multiple times last week on my device | 08:35 |
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| Wnt | maybe I should write a question to together.jolla.com? | 08:36 |
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| Stskeeps | please do | 08:37 |
| joonahoi | Wnt: do you have any problems connecting to mobile data? | 08:38 |
| Wnt | joonahoi: nope | 08:38 |
| joonahoi | ok, nvm that then | 08:38 |
| joonahoi | it's the only thing that has been blocking all the action including UI in my device, happened only once though | 08:39 |
| Tofe | joonahoi: funny that you talk about that, it's happening to me right now | 08:39 |
| joonahoi | that sucks :/ go vote on the issue on together.jolla.com and add any further details to comments if you have any | 08:40 |
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| mornfall | hmm | 08:46 |
| Tofe | joonahoi: looks like telepathy is trying to connect to mobile data, but as there is a network error, this error message shows up multiple times | 08:46 |
| mornfall | I got a sim disconnected message twice already. :\ | 08:46 |
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| Tofe | the fact that this error message blocks the UI is already known to Jolla I think | 08:46 |
| mornfall | Btw., anyone knows how is it with the reboot it wants? I dismissed the dialog and I can still make calls... | 08:47 |
| joonahoi | Tofe: yeah, it looped 'till phone shutdown for me | 08:50 |
| joonahoi | the one time it happened | 08:50 |
| joonahoi | and yup, there's issue created in tjo | 08:50 |
| Tofe | ah, I just reproduced it | 08:51 |
| Wnt | here is the alarm clock question https://together.jolla.com/question/18348/alarm-clock-doesnt-alert-on-time/ | 08:51 |
| Tofe | ah no -- I managed to get back my UI. but the error message is really a blocking thing. | 08:51 |
| Wnt | mornfall: that happens me every few days | 08:51 |
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| Wnt | the phone says "somethign wrong with the sim card, reboot device" or something similar, but mobile data and calls work just fine | 08:52 |
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| mornfall | Wnt: this, I think https://together.jolla.com/question/1358/sim-card-connection-to-phone-lost-easily/ | 08:55 |
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| Wnt | my sim card issue might be some kind of timeout occouring in the device when it's being too busy and that triggers the UI notification | 09:00 |
| Wnt | but if I dismiss the notification I can use mobile data just fine | 09:00 |
| mornfall | dunno, I didn't have any load on the device, but I also can't reproduce the "pressure" thing from t.j.o | 09:02 |
| Wnt | maybe it's a similar problem with the alarm clock: CPU frequency gets locked to a very low level when the device is in standby, something is still running and consuming resources and prevents an alarm clock test routine from running | 09:02 |
| mornfall | the sim card sits in there pretty tight | 09:02 |
| Wnt | I have only seen the SIM card problem when waking up the device from a standby state | 09:03 |
| AL13N_work | i cut my SIM and i didn't have the issue | 09:04 |
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| artemma | asking for donations without special license is illegal in Finland, but central bank recently ruled that Bitcoin isn't money. Hence I guess you should be able to legally ask for Bitcoin donations in your apps :) | 09:22 |
| dunp | :) | 09:22 |
| slate | So making bitcoins by piracy isnt that illegal also? | 09:22 |
| flux | not money, but they are worth something ;) | 09:23 |
| artemma | slate: that was about donations only | 09:23 |
| dunp | i like bitcoin idea | 09:23 |
| artemma | I guess legally it looks like if people were donating coffee or clothes for your app :) | 09:23 |
| ShadowJK | Wnt; cpu frequency is mostly 0 in standby | 09:23 |
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| Nicd- | it's stupid in Finland, you can't even tell your bank account or paypal for donations on your website | 09:24 |
| slate | ah okey :) | 09:24 |
| Nicd- | only if people specifically ask you, you can tell those people | 09:24 |
| artemma | slate: to be precise it was about *asking* for donations only. It is legal to donate whatever if you yourself like the app and decide on it. It is illegal to ask for donation. I guess it means that putting Donations button into app is illegal | 09:24 |
| Nicd- | artemma: in Finland it is | 09:25 |
| flux | so you should put a "Do not donate" button in the app | 09:25 |
| artemma | that is except for bitcoins now. You can tell in your app the address to send you warm clothes and bitcoins :) | 09:25 |
| flux | "Under no circumstances I wish to receive donations to the following bank account: " | 09:26 |
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| dunp | bitcoins to app store? :) | 09:27 |
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| artemma | that would be a geek fun case :) | 09:28 |
| artemma | eliminating chances for real income unfortunately | 09:29 |
| artemma | but fun | 09:29 |
| flux | eliminating chances for real income? | 09:29 |
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| artemma | flux: how many smartphones users do you think have a single bit of bitcoins? | 09:30 |
| ottulo | o/ | 09:30 |
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| flux | artemma, one, ottulo | 09:30 |
| artemma | it's amazing that it is being asked at all. Oh well, Jolla is about geek fun for now indeed, not about money just yet :) | 09:30 |
| ShadowJK | Those highschool kids that wrap christmas gifts for "voluntray payment" around christmas time seem to get away with asking for donations | 09:30 |
| mornfall | unless you are actually a Finnish citizen, I don't think you are bound by Finnish law just because Jolla's servers are in Finland (are they, even?) | 09:31 |
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| ottulo | <artemma> slate: to be precise it was about *asking* for donations only. It is legal to donate whatever -> there's a limited amount you can donate (gift) without taxes | 09:31 |
| ShadowJK | they're on amazon, arent they | 09:31 |
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| artemma | ShadowJK: that is Finnish law only and even here I don't think the law is really enforced for tiny amounts donated to kids | 09:32 |
| mornfall | ShadowJK: at least some of them, looking at the IP addresses | 09:32 |
| ottulo | I think it matters where the business is registered | 09:33 |
| mornfall | yup, store-repository.jolla.com lives in amazon aws | 09:33 |
| ottulo | not sure, but that's what I'd imagine | 09:33 |
| mornfall | ottulo: that only applies if Jolla asked for donations | 09:34 |
| ottulo | also, asking for donations is one thing, simply providing a bank account number or such is not | 09:34 |
| ottulo | mornfall: true | 09:34 |
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| mornfall | but then, wiring money is pretty expensive, better get flattr or something ;-) | 09:35 |
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| mornfall | (guess paypal is more likely) | 09:36 |
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| artemma | well, you can ask for money donations in Finland, you just need to get a money collection license (no idea about the process, but sounds difficult/expensive) | 09:40 |
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| slate | and pay taxes | 09:41 |
| slate | ? | 09:41 |
| jussi | probably | 09:42 |
| jussi | :P | 09:42 |
| slate | If bitcoin is no money, no taxes either. win win. | 09:42 |
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| ShadowJK | I'm not sure if it falls under "Donation" if you've delivered a product to the person giving you the payment | 09:42 |
| ln- | i don't think it's expensive, but such a license can only be granted to very specific purposes for certain organizations... can't be granted to companies or individual citizens for example. | 09:42 |
| zutto | artemma: you also need to be registered association | 09:42 |
| entil | slate: however if it's not money and it's sold and bought, you pay taxes for the increase in value | 09:42 |
| ottulo | slate: there are taxes for other stuff too apart from money | 09:42 |
| dunp | here in finland you can sell bitcoin to euros :) bittiraha.fi | 09:43 |
| entil | (not value-added tax but winnings tax) | 09:43 |
| zutto | dunp: wouldnt trust shady site like that :| | 09:43 |
| slate | ottulo: should be at least. | 09:43 |
| zutto | better to use something like mtgox | 09:43 |
| entil | dunp: the localbitcoins guy suggested that private people are not accountable by law to keep accounts of their finances, so that's ok, but he's no lawyer and no one else is either | 09:43 |
| ShadowJK | I'd rather use a well-established exhange like mtgox | 09:43 |
| zutto | ShadowJK: exactly | 09:43 |
| zutto | these small sites will rip you off in most cases | 09:44 |
| entil | but there is a tradition by the government to slap you with "consideration tax" if they think you've been cheating, so you can't escape | 09:44 |
| slate | ottulo: but for some things its quite impossible to give a value to pay taxes from | 09:44 |
| ottulo | zutto: I personally know some people behind Bittiraha | 09:44 |
| dunp | zutto, i have used it | 09:44 |
| artemma | zutto: we have bitcoin to euros ATMs in Finland. Would that work for you? :) | 09:44 |
| kehnoo | keep buttcoins out of serious projects, thanks | 09:44 |
| ottulo | zutto: MtGox isn't really that trustworthy, sure it works but they have a lot of trouble with handling fiat | 09:44 |
| entil | on the contrary, bitcoins into everything so it gets accepted | 09:44 |
| ShadowJK | I once did work in exchange for free internet. The taxman found out, and wasn't happy :< | 09:45 |
| zutto | artemma: yeah, i've seen those.. the rate they give are horrible | 09:45 |
| entil | just don't let the government in on it | 09:45 |
| zutto | so no | 09:45 |
| zutto | i wouldnt use atm either | 09:45 |
| artemma | zutto: that's the price you pay for assumed anonymity :D | 09:45 |
| zutto | i dont use bitcoins, but if i did.. i would turn to something like mtgox :P | 09:45 |
| entil | I use bitstamp and bitcurex | 09:46 |
| sharpneli | artemma: It's only euros to bitcoin | 09:46 |
| entil | bitcurex has this real cool visa electron thing | 09:46 |
| dunp | i have buy 2x radeon 280x on bitcoins and pay phone bills.. | 09:46 |
| entil | you can lift your euros onto a prepaid electron | 09:46 |
| zutto | entil: that would be intresting, but i could assume thats illegal in finland :P | 09:47 |
| entil | leave no trace for the man to follow | 09:47 |
| mornfall | entil: that's the trivial part | 09:47 |
| entil | zutto: why would it be illegal? | 09:47 |
| mornfall | entil: you also need to have a completely separate identity that's untraceable to you | 09:47 |
| sharpneli | "wiring money is pretty expensive, better get flattr or something" Also insidie EU wiring money is practically free. | 09:47 |
| sharpneli | It's only expensive in USA | 09:47 |
| zutto | entil: cause you need to be approved bank to give out prepaid creditcards | 09:47 |
| entil | mornfall: sure, sure, nothing's ever 100% anon | 09:47 |
| ottulo | zutto: it's not illegal, simply no bank in Fin wants to support that - so you gotta get the card + account from a foreign bank | 09:47 |
| entil | zutto: it's a polish deal, the card comes from poland | 09:47 |
| mornfall | sharpneli: you mean eurozone | 09:48 |
| entil | you get your tx history and saldo info by sending an sms to a polish service number | 09:48 |
| mornfall | sharpneli: not EU | 09:48 |
| sharpneli | mornfall: True. | 09:48 |
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| mornfall | sharpneli: cost's me like 8€ to wire money into eurozone | 09:48 |
| sharpneli | mornfall: Actually it should be cheap also to Norway, sweden etc. | 09:48 |
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| mornfall | costs* | 09:48 |
| ottulo | mornfall: from online bank or at the bank f2f? | 09:49 |
| mornfall | sharpneli: norway is much more expesnive | 09:49 |
| mornfall | ottulo: ebanking for a brick-and-mortar bank | 09:49 |
| sharpneli | mornfall: You're in USA? | 09:49 |
| ottulo | mornfall: ok | 09:49 |
| mornfall | sharpneli: I once wired 100k NOK, cost over 100€ | 09:50 |
| mornfall | sharpneli: .cz, right in the middle of EU | 09:50 |
| sharpneli | But regardless, we have paypal | 09:50 |
| sharpneli | :O | 09:50 |
| ottulo | and paypal is cheap? | 09:50 |
| mornfall | paypal is, well, cheaper | 09:50 |
| mornfall | not exactly cheap | 09:50 |
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| sharpneli | Well cheaper than bitcoin. Currently for small transfers (less than 5 euros) you get like 50 cent fee | 09:51 |
| mornfall | the other problem with wires is that it takes substantial effort to file the order, even online | 09:51 |
| mornfall | sharpneli: yeah, flattr takes 10% as well | 09:51 |
| ottulo | sharpneli: the fee is optional | 09:51 |
| ottulo | in bitcoin transactions | 09:52 |
| mornfall | ottulo: the exchange rate isn't | 09:52 |
| ottulo | unless you're using a service that doesn't give you the option | 09:52 |
| zutto | sharpneli: we also have google wallet coming soon for personal transfers | 09:52 |
| sharpneli | ottulo: Only in larger ones. In the default client smaller ones give automatic fee. | 09:52 |
| ottulo | mornfall: the exchange rate can be adjusted, you just need to find the place to trade | 09:52 |
| ottulo | sharpneli: you can always do a manual transaction to bypass fees | 09:53 |
| mornfall | ottulo: all "bitcoin" prices I have ever seen were actually fiat-money prices real-time converted into bitcoin | 09:53 |
| sharpneli | ottulo: Yap. But it might get orphaned in that case. | 09:53 |
| mornfall | ottulo: there isn't really such a thing as paying in bitcoin | 09:53 |
| ottulo | sharpneli: might, but quite rarely do | 09:54 |
| mornfall | ottulo: it's just a volatile standin for USD | 09:54 |
| ottulo | mornfall: well, usually companies don't take bitcoin directly, but use a service like BitPay | 09:54 |
| ottulo | but it is still cheaper for the business to use BitPay than cash/credit | 09:54 |
| mornfall | (and until the bitcoin rate stabilises, there isn't going to be a bitcoin economy to speak of...) | 09:55 |
| sharpneli | Also bitcoin is old news, dogecoin! Such value! | 09:55 |
| ottulo | I agree, it needs to stabilize, but that doesn't mean people won't use it before that | 09:55 |
| sharpneli | Additionally bitcoin is kinda tricky to use in mobile. 13G for the blockchain and by the gods does the syncing back up take ages. The only way to use it is to use some service and those may have their own fees. | 09:56 |
| mornfall | and I know that bitcoiners really discount this, but the known flaws of fiat currencies are substantially smaller risk than the unknown flaws of bitcoin | 09:56 |
| ottulo | sharpneli: that's why there are services like Blockchain.info online wallet - you don't need to dl the blockchain | 09:56 |
| mornfall | sharpneli: never trust a bitcoin service (i.e. online wallets? never, ever) | 09:56 |
| entil | multibit-style lighter clients exist too | 09:57 |
| sharpneli | mornfall: Exactly. | 09:57 |
| mornfall | also, I hear the best use for bitcoins is buying counterfeit euros :D | 09:57 |
| mornfall | (or dollars, that probably works better) | 09:57 |
| sharpneli | And drugs. And speculating. | 09:57 |
| ottulo | mornfall: best use currently is for tipping | 09:57 |
| ottulo | imo | 09:58 |
| mornfall | ottulo: that only works if your tips-in roughly equal out tips-out | 09:58 |
| ottulo | mornfall: that is if you only tip from tips you receive | 09:58 |
| mornfall | yeah | 09:59 |
| mornfall | but you know, this counterfeit money business, that must be a goldmine... :-P | 09:59 |
| ottulo | I guess, haven't really looked into it | 10:00 |
| mornfall | no way anyone is going to correlate the delivery address with tor usage in the area | 10:00 |
| mornfall | you could triple the value of your bitcoin donations only by running a small risk of jailtime... who could resist that | 10:02 |
| mornfall | (obviously, the counterfeiter is always legit, no risk there) | 10:03 |
| sharpneli | mornfall: In b4 NSA does it. | 10:03 |
| sharpneli | mornfall: Small time perps are not going to get caught. But if you are going to do something serious then NSA will discreetly give all the info forwards. | 10:04 |
| mornfall | sharpneli: might work with USD, I would be scared shitless to pay with counterfeit EUR | 10:04 |
| mornfall | especially if I had a heap of them stashed somewhere | 10:05 |
| sharpneli | Or you could just use your energy to make something actually useful :) | 10:05 |
| mornfall | don't you say | 10:05 |
| mornfall | like what? :-) | 10:05 |
| ballock | like fix some bugs | 10:05 |
| mornfall | yeah, add BMI tracking to weight log | 10:05 |
| mornfall | I knew people would ask for it | 10:06 |
| mornfall | also, github weight log, or something | 10:06 |
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| mornfall | is there an app wishlist somewhere? :) | 10:11 |
| tachikoma | i bet there is a number of those | 10:12 |
| rcg_ | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90245 | 10:12 |
| rcg_ | e.g. | 10:12 |
| rcg_ | but that's just the first "hit" that came to my mind | 10:13 |
| mornfall | yeah, it's also hopelessly outdated | 10:13 |
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| AL13N_work | mornfall: http://elinux.org/Jolla#Cool_Ideas.2C_but_No_Time_aka_CINT | 10:39 |
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| AL13N_work | mornfall: https://together.jolla.com/questions/scope:all/sort:activity-desc/tags:app-request/page:1/ | 10:39 |
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| AL13N_work | app wishlist ^^ | 10:40 |
| AL13N_work | if anyone wants to help me, i want MangaWhat ported to native :-) | 10:40 |
| AL13N_work | and a divx video player from my NFS mount point | 10:41 |
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| mornfall | AL13N_work: try 'ssu domain sales' suuuure | 10:46 |
| Skorpy | something wrong with the email app. notification sais 4 new mails. I press the notification and see only one mail. it seems to get the same mail from other folders too. | 10:46 |
| mornfall | AL13N_work: that wiki is busted | 10:46 |
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| ggabriel | morning | 11:00 |
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| vesqu_ | Skorpy, its shows new email in all folders, when looks folder view its shows where new messages are. | 11:10 |
| Skorpy | vesqu_: yeah. but it's the same mail :/ | 11:11 |
| Skorpy | it's in inbox, "all mail" and "uni" | 11:11 |
| vesqu_ | in many folder same time? | 11:11 |
| Skorpy | that's three. dunno where the fourth came from | 11:11 |
| Skorpy | vesqu_: yeah | 11:11 |
| Skorpy | gmail and filter you see | 11:11 |
| Skorpy | filters* | 11:12 |
| vesqu_ | if its shows filters as folders its may happens | 11:12 |
| Skorpy | my filter puts it into the uni folder. it shows at all mail by default of course. | 11:13 |
| Skorpy | so it shows "2 new emails" for one email by default | 11:13 |
| vesqu_ | in exchange mail does not do that | 11:13 |
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| vesqu_ | and gmail i use so little i didn't notice that. | 11:14 |
| vesqu_ | and now my phone is bricked not can test it :) | 11:14 |
| Skorpy | hmm... I wonder if this is already in together. if not, maybe I should write it there :P | 11:15 |
| Skorpy | I have tried to look for it in there, but haven't found one | 11:15 |
| Skorpy | I've also seen notifications from mail that goes straight to spam :/ | 11:16 |
| Skorpy | and that is even more big of a problem | 11:16 |
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| HarhaanJohtaja | http://www.tippler.im/ "only" 450 per year | 11:27 |
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| artemma | Quick Launcher was approved in jolla app store 25min ago! Speeds up the apps start! Go download and like it and leave comments for improvements! :) | 13:22 |
| Turski | what it does? | 13:23 |
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| Bysmyyr_ | artemma: is that program calling home? | 13:25 |
| artemma | Turski: yes, I clearly need to improve the description as Quick Launcher doesn't seem to be descriptive enough, you tell me what it does after you tried, please :) | 13:26 |
| artemma | Bysmyyr_, no, not yet. Will call home when I figure how to do it without breaking user experience and how to tell it in UI so that its obvious | 13:26 |
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| Milo- | why do you need statistics? | 13:26 |
| artemma | well, will *probably* call home when I figure all these things. Maybe I decide it's too much work for the stats | 13:27 |
| Milo- | it's an app which launches other apps, you either get likes at jolla store, or you don't. | 13:27 |
| Turski | artemma: sorry, just didn't bother to reach my jolla... | 13:28 |
| artemma | Milo-: because I like improving how apps work. You know, like AB-testing improvements. There are a number of speed optimizations in mind for quick launcher that may or may not work depending on how many apps you have installed, etc. I want to collect stats on for how many people they help | 13:28 |
| Milo- | you could provide a link to your project website, where users could give you feedback. | 13:28 |
| Milo- | rather than mine them with force | 13:29 |
| ShadowJK | users are shit at useful feedback :D | 13:29 |
| Milo- | respect users and they might respect you | 13:29 |
| ShadowJK | the placebo effects are too strong :) | 13:29 |
| Nicd- | first shutdown of the day :| | 13:30 |
| Turski | or add option to settings to collect/send statistics | 13:30 |
| Turski | Nicd-: i already had maybe 6 | 13:30 |
| Milo- | Turski but would it automatically collect user data, if the user has told not to send them? | 13:30 |
| artemma | Milo-: as long as I remember stats classes, that's the worst possible way to collect meaningful numbers :) | 13:31 |
| Milo- | artemma I don't understand what meaningful user data you can get from a flashlight application or a quicklauncher. | 13:31 |
| artemma | there's proposal (by me) in Together to use Jolla as a mediator for trusted stats collection. If it gets enough votes, I'll be happy | 13:31 |
| artemma | Milo-: do you want me to retype the AB-tesing paragraph? :) | 13:32 |
| artemma | anyway, it doesn't collect data now and I don't intend to collect it without telling, I try learning from my messups | 13:32 |
| Milo- | harbour isn't agile enough for AB-testing. | 13:32 |
| artemma | I still think that it's crucially useful for app improvment | 13:32 |
| ab | you don't need to test me | 13:33 |
| artemma | Milo-: what does harbour have to do with ab-testing my app? :/ | 13:33 |
| artemma | Milo-: you know what AB-testing is, right? | 13:33 |
| Milo- | yes. | 13:33 |
| Milo- | usually you give some features to one random set of people and disable it from the others | 13:34 |
| Milo- | and then you look for statitistics whether the feature works or is liked in the first place | 13:34 |
| ShadowJK | hm, do you think QA would care if an app made connections to .nsa.gov on startup and shutdown? :D | 13:34 |
| Stskeeps | more worrying is how many people would install a popular app anyway if it said up front it did that.. | 13:35 |
| Milo- | artemma which raises some suspicions, because you either have to upload different versions to harbour (which isn't very agige or fast) | 13:35 |
| Milo- | or your application would take a remote connection to your server, which tells the application to work in one way, or the other. | 13:36 |
| ggabriel | Stskeeps: clap clap clap :) | 13:36 |
| Stskeeps | mm? | 13:36 |
| Milo- | which pretty much looks like malicious intent to fool the QA people and the users. | 13:37 |
| ggabriel | Stskeeps: sorry, that's an applause for the comment | 13:37 |
| Stskeeps | ah | 13:37 |
| artemma | Milo-: how ab testing is usually done, you let the potential improvement work for 10% of users only and see if it improves the final outcome in a statistically significant way. That's it. Nothing harbour related there | 13:37 |
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| Milo- | read the second part.. | 13:38 |
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| artemma | Yeah, app should be able to know if it needs to use improvements or not. There are many ways to do it, in the end it boils down to having a randomized id for this or that user | 13:40 |
| Milo- | which means that you are potentially fooling the QA-people | 13:41 |
| Milo- | disable malicious feature from the application while it's in QA and enable it when it's used by an end user. | 13:41 |
| Milo- | that's what AB-testing allows you to do, if you wish. | 13:42 |
| Milo- | it's "safe" in the web world, where the application is executed on the same server which it connects, (at least in some ways with clouds) | 13:43 |
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| artemma | Milo-: do you know that if you really want you can hide things from QA people with many other ways? Building an AB-testing system machinery for hiding malicious feature.. oh, you'd have troubles being accepted to a hacker gang with this sort of ideas :) | 13:50 |
| * artemma is doing AB-testing on the iOS apps daily and improvements are well worth it. Sorry if it collides with your ideas on how the app improvement ideas should be tested | 13:51 | |
| * artemma finds it funny when AB-testing on server side is somehow okay while doing same on a client side is not even if the app connects to the same server anyway | 13:52 | |
| dschoepe | artemma: I think since Snowden we can't call people paranoid for worrying about this kind of thing anymore | 13:54 |
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| artemma | dschoepe: this point of view I find most funny. NSA knows everything about you anyway. And if it notices Jolla existence by accident, it will come to Jolla HQ, not to a Flashlight app maker | 13:55 |
| dschoepe | artemma: well, I'm not sure if a Finnish company has to comply with requests by the NSA, so putting a malicious app in the app store and hoping that it slips by during the QA testing sounds plausible | 13:56 |
| artemma | oh well, we can disagree on rationale, same things stay anyway: Quick Launcher doesn't collect info, if it will, it will tell it somewhere. I guess, I'll create a Privacy menu item in the very top level as I did for Flashlight | 13:56 |
| Nicd- | I would appreciate if you mentioned it in the desription | 13:57 |
| Nicd- | description* | 13:57 |
| dschoepe | and if you use something like OTR for chatting and PGP for email and your phone isn't otherwise compromised then they'd be missing out on that form of communication | 13:57 |
| artemma | dschoepe: yeah, EU countries also do not have to comply with US requests to put Snowden's plane down - I've heard about the idea of European independence before :) | 13:57 |
| artemma | Nicd-: that's also true, nothing to mention there yet | 13:57 |
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| dschoepe | artemma: we know that most European intelligence agencies cooperate with the NSA to some extent anyway, so feeling safe just because the product is made by a European company is risky to say the least. | 13:59 |
| ggabriel | tsk tsk guys, freenode accepts unencrypted connections ;-) | 13:59 |
| dschoepe | ggabriel: the overwhelming majority of channels is public anyway, isn't it? | 13:59 |
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| ggabriel | dschoepe: yup, but that implies that the nsa can use irc ;-) | 13:59 |
| artemma | ggabriel: have you seen NSA's scheme on decoding Google traffic? Encryption sort of doesn't matter if you sit on the server :D | 14:00 |
| ggabriel | artemma: yup, that's why i minimise the use of google. also, schmidt did say they were going to do no evil until 2010, right? so, people who still use it are well aware... | 14:00 |
| dschoepe | there was also one quote were Schmidt said that we shouldn't expect any more security and privacy from google than a call on a cell phone offers :) | 14:01 |
| dschoepe | so.. none | 14:01 |
| artemma | to my understanding nowadays they will go to jail if they admit cooperating with NSA, they are not allowed to tell | 14:01 |
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| dschoepe | Does anyone know of a way to swap the operations of swiping from the top and swiping from the left/right? Since my hands aren't quite big enough to swipe from the top without changing my grip, it'd be nice to do that, as left and right edge swipes do the same thing anyway (except for ambience changing). | 14:25 |
| ballock | Use the source, Luke! | 14:26 |
| Nicd- | swiping from left/right and swiping from the top is not the same thing | 14:27 |
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| dschoepe | Nicd-: no, but swiping from the left and swiping from the right is. | 14:27 |
| dschoepe | ballock: I wish I could, but afaik, that part is closed-source | 14:27 |
| Venemo | good morning everyone :) | 14:27 |
| ballock | oh, really? I thought it's just closed design. | 14:27 |
| Venemo | what's closed source? | 14:28 |
| dschoepe | Venemo: the parts of the UI that handle swiping, etc. | 14:28 |
| dschoepe | to my understanding, basically all of the basic UI stuff was proprietary | 14:29 |
| ballock | I find it hard to believe... there's a number of people porting it to other platforms | 14:29 |
| ballock | with the ui and stuff | 14:29 |
| Venemo | well, not entirely | 14:30 |
| Stskeeps | it's a very portable ui | 14:30 |
| ballock | I remember somebody even swapping to landscape on some device... | 14:30 |
| Venemo | here is the open source part: https://github.com/nemomobile/lipstick | 14:30 |
| Venemo | you can (at least it's technically possible to) make your own lipstick home screen and replace the one in sailfish | 14:30 |
| ballock | soo... how do I use the closed part on a device with a larger screen? | 14:32 |
| dschoepe | Venemo: thanks, I'll take a look at it | 14:32 |
| ballock | I'd need to reimplement the whole UI? | 14:32 |
| Venemo | ask someone who's been porting it ;) | 14:33 |
| ballock | will when I get to it | 14:33 |
| * ballock intends to run Sailfish on Archos 80 G9 | 14:33 | |
| Venemo | ballock: for example this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaVAMGv3tI4 was done by sledges - I'm sure he'll be helpful :) | 14:35 |
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| ballock | Well, that was easy, it's the same Qualcomm chip and screen size | 14:37 |
| ballock | (I don't intend to say I would be able to do it, would need to try first) | 14:38 |
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| Venemo | ballock: like I said, ping him and ask :) I don't know anything more about it | 14:40 |
| sledges | screen size is not the same ballock, you can see some sizing-related bits in the video | 14:43 |
| ballock | How did you get to the starting point? I guess you needed to generate root or something? | 14:44 |
| ballock | I guess I'll need to recompile the kernel for my Archos to make it work, that needs some specific cross-compiler? | 14:45 |
| sledges | ballock: if your device can run cyanogen mod 10.x, it will have less hard-times running sailfish as it's based of | 14:46 |
| sledges | (the hardware adaptation that is) | 14:46 |
| sledges | here's nemo on n7: www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWQZJcEwEow | 14:46 |
| sledges | (with fully open source UI) | 14:47 |
| Venemo | btw sledges, I hear you're coming to FOSDEM too? :) | 14:48 |
| sledges | yes, are you Venemo ? :) | 14:48 |
| Venemo | sledges: I sure am! | 14:49 |
| sledges | \o/ | 14:49 |
| tbr | reminds me to reserve the restaurant soon™ | 14:49 |
| sledges | didn't see you there last year :) | 14:49 |
| Venemo | because I wasn't there last year | 14:49 |
| sledges | ;P | 14:49 |
| Venemo | sledges: btw will we see you at tbr's party? | 14:49 |
| sledges | the sailfish os dinner you mean? sure! | 14:49 |
| Venemo | great | 14:49 |
| Venemo | :) | 14:49 |
| tbr | karma-whoring™ https://together.jolla.com/question/11303/are-you-going-to-fosdem-2014-irl-floss-meeting-in-belgium/?answer=11461#post-id-11461 | 14:50 |
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| Venemo | tbr: already voted up | 14:50 |
| Venemo | :P | 14:50 |
| tbr | ;) | 14:50 |
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| tbr | ballock: in case of G9 ther is a CM build. don't remember if CM10.1 though. the install instructions for that stuff also get you a android type recovery where you could then 'execute' the zip files etc | 14:53 |
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| tbr | I might still have the stuff from when I was playing with gen9 | 14:55 |
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| dschoepe | Venemo: sorry for being a bit ignorant here, but I'm having trouble finding it in the docs: Are you sure that lipstick is the component that decides what to do on user input like swiping from one of the edges? I can't seem to find related parts in the code. | 14:59 |
| ballock | still, would need to find the right files to put there, like rootfs for Sailfish... | 14:59 |
| ballock | or do you mean that I first get the rootfs of cyanogenmod? | 14:59 |
| ballock | and then add-on some stuff...? | 15:00 |
| Venemo | dschoepe: lipstick is a toolkit for creating your own compositor. it contains a way to display window previews as QML items, a model you can use as launcher, and utilities for notifications | 15:00 |
| Venemo | dschoepe: whatever the compositor does when the user does whatever on the edge of the screen is up to your implementation | 15:00 |
| ballock | btw, sledges: what was the UI on nexus7 you posted? | 15:00 |
| ballock | looks interesting | 15:00 |
| Venemo | ballock: it is the old Nemo UI | 15:01 |
| dschoepe | Venemo: ah, okay, so for the jolla-specific implementation I'd have to look at their binaries instead, right? | 15:01 |
| ballock | so... was the Nemo UI closed? As I think Nemo is the UI used in Jolla? | 15:01 |
| Venemo | ballock: no | 15:02 |
| Venemo | srsly guys, I don't see the confusion | 15:02 |
| ballock | I mean, was the UI closed at some point in time? | 15:02 |
| Venemo | Nemo contains a lot of _middleware_ components that are used in Sailfish. but the nemo UI itself is not used in Sailfish | 15:02 |
| ballock | what's the big deal that it's closed in Jollas? | 15:02 |
| Venemo | the Nemo UI is still open, but it's a different implementation; not the same as the Sailfish UI | 15:03 |
| ballock | ah, ok, that explains it then | 15:03 |
| sledges | latest Nemo Glacier UI, still work in progress: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKiGdIQraCQ | 15:03 |
| sledges | it will look like this: http://play.qwazix.com/grog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/SystemUI.png | 15:03 |
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| Venemo | ballock, dschoepe, please take a look at this: https://sailfishos.org/images/Sailfish_Architecture.png | 15:04 |
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| Venemo | ballock: basically most of what you see in the "UI and Middleware" box are Nemo components, except for the actual user interface itself | 15:05 |
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| dschoepe | Venemo: thanks, but that's a very high-level overview. My confusion was more a result of trying to find one specific component of the user interface. | 15:07 |
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| Venemo | dschoepe: I only meant it as an illustration to what I was talking about | 15:07 |
| Venemo | btw, I think there should be two boxes there: one for "Nemo middleware" and one for "Jolla UI" | 15:07 |
| * sledges agrees | 15:08 | |
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| Venemo | dschoepe: one more thought about the edge gestures: I think that in QML, they are actually extremely easy to implement (much-much easier than what we had in the X times) | 15:18 |
| dschoepe | Venemo: I just saw that you joined after I asked what I was after actually: I'm trying to swap the actions caused by swipe-from-top and swipe-from-left, so it should be a simple matter of swapping some addresses if I know in which binary to look and what to look for. | 15:20 |
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| Venemo | dschoepe: ask coderus in #sailfishos I think he did some hacking on the closed binary | 15:22 |
| dschoepe | Venemo: thanks, I will | 15:23 |
| dschoepe | While looking through the lipstick binary I realised my skills at reading ARM assembly are way more rusty than I thought anyway :) | 15:23 |
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| Venemo | dschoepe: that being said, I'm not 100% confident that the edge gestures are implemented in QML, but it seems like a logical guess. that's where I'd implement them, anyway ;) | 15:25 |
| dschoepe | Venemo: QML code is lost during compilation anyhow, isn't it? | 15:25 |
| Venemo | dschoepe: it depends. | 15:25 |
| tachikoma | hm, when reading arm i had to think of what i watched about arm recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw0g1yiQA5M | 15:25 |
| tachikoma | that si a collection of really entertaining / informing programs that were broadcasted when arcorn developed the arm architecture | 15:26 |
| tachikoma | if they'd known what would come out of that back then :) | 15:26 |
| Venemo | dschoepe: some apps load the QML from the file system, some add the QMLs to the executable (using Qt resources) - either way, you can hack them out. for example: https://together.jolla.com/question/12022/patch-for-lipstick-jolla-home-qt5-to-support-any-framebuffer-orientation/ | 15:27 |
| dschoepe | Venemo: ah okay, that's good to know | 15:28 |
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| Venemo | dschoepe: seriously, go to #sailfishos and ping coderus :) he'll know more | 15:29 |
| dschoepe | Venemo: okay, done | 15:30 |
| dschoepe | Venemo: thanks for your help in any case | 15:31 |
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| faenil | dschoepe, the QML is just "compiled" inside the bin, it's not hard to extract it, google google ;) | 15:33 |
| Venemo | faenil +1 | 15:34 |
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| tachikoma | [x] paddy *kann* googlen | 15:41 |
| tachikoma | oops, wrong window, sorry | 15:41 |
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| dschoepe | I searched for every combination of extracting qrc/qml files from a binary I could think of but I only found a way to do that from within the application. Could anyone point me in the right direction anyway? | 16:18 |
| Pnuu | #sailfishos ;-) | 16:20 |
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| dschoepe | Okay, I'll demonstrate my inability to google effectively there :) | 16:21 |
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| * roboro hates that google is used as a verb | 16:25 | |
| * roboro suggests using webgrep as a non-commercially-oriented alternative :) | 16:25 | |
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| dschoepe | roboro: grep has a nicer user interface than search engines though. And using duckduckgo as a verb just sounds weird :) | 16:27 |
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| roboro | lol | 16:27 |
| Yaniel | why not take it further | 16:27 |
| Yaniel | "googling" is somewhat synonymous to "lookup" | 16:28 |
| Yaniel | so whenever you want to access a website your computer first has to do a "dns-google" | 16:28 |
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| Yaniel | or "search"... presenting you the infamous antivirus software: Spybot - google and destroy | 16:29 |
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| * roboro shoots Yaniel before the disease can spread | 16:29 | |
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| Yaniel | aw | 16:30 |
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| AL13N_work | mornfall: update the wiki if it's wrong | 16:58 |
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| krnlyng | how long will it take to install enable developer mode? | 17:34 |
| Stskeeps | did you add a jolla account? | 17:35 |
| krnlyng | yes | 17:35 |
| faenil | krnlyng, common things to check: time is correct, jolla account is signed in | 17:35 |
| Stskeeps | upgrade to 1.0.2.5 first | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:36 |
| Stskeeps | .. and sacrifice a goat | 17:36 |
| Yaniel | and don't enable developer updates | 17:37 |
| krnlyng | okay :), is there a way to manually upgrade? it doesn't show that there is an update | 17:37 |
| Yaniel | goto settings -> info -> pulley menu "check updates" | 17:37 |
| Yaniel | settins -> system -> info * | 17:37 |
| krnlyng | ah :) | 17:37 |
| krnlyng | thanks | 17:37 |
| Yaniel | installing developer mode doesn't take much once you are all set | 17:38 |
| Yaniel | maybe 30s | 17:38 |
| krnlyng | hm it doesn't find an update | 17:38 |
| krnlyng | after checking for updates it says Updates: Up to date but the version is 1.0.0.5 | 17:40 |
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| Yaniel | what data connection do you have active? | 17:41 |
| krnlyng | wifi | 17:41 |
| Pnuu | just a sec! | 17:41 |
| Pnuu | krnlyng: https://together.jolla.com/question/3816/jolla-store-crashes-unable-to-update-system/#post-id-3855 | 17:42 |
| Pnuu | (needs dev mode) | 17:42 |
| Yaniel | welll that obviously won't work as he is trying to get developer mode in the first place | 17:43 |
| Yaniel | which is somewhat... risky when not up to date | 17:43 |
| Pnuu | oh, right | 17:43 |
| Yaniel | krnlyng: try checking again | 17:43 |
| Yaniel | and opening the store app | 17:43 |
| Yaniel | but don't install anything from there | 17:43 |
| krnlyng | Yaniel: did it a few times now, still says up to date :( | 17:45 |
| krnlyng | i've tried switching to mobile data connection but that makes no difference | 17:45 |
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| krnlyng | i selected factory reset (had nothing important on it yet) and now the screen is black, does it mean i need to power it on manually or do i have to wait? | 17:56 |
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| mornfall | AL13N_work: no I mean it's been spammed | 18:01 |
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| Claudy | power it on o.o | 18:11 |
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| krnlyng | Claudy: did it already :) i was just wondering if i might abort something important | 18:12 |
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| Claudy | ^^ | 18:12 |
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| * pvanhoof happy today, i have received my jolla from fedex | 18:20 | |
| Aard | pvanhoof: you're giving back what we give you? :p | 18:20 |
| pvanhoof | Aard, yep :) | 18:20 |
| krnlyng | ah finally, updating :) | 18:20 |
| Eztran | Yeah... updating before anything else really looks the way to go. | 18:21 |
| pvanhoof | Aard, can't use the proto for streetuse, need to flash and break it too often | 18:21 |
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| Aard | :) | 18:21 |
| pvanhoof | copying data over from n9 | 18:21 |
| krnlyng | i wonder how many jolla phones have been sold so far :) | 18:25 |
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| Claudy | i hope at least enough for the company to sustain ^_^ | 18:28 |
| Claudy | the box would look nice as a perfume box though | 18:29 |
| krnlyng | Claudy: :) i hope the same | 18:31 |
| Claudy | "sailfish perfume, for that lusty coder inside all of us" | 18:32 |
| krnlyng | hmm does somebody know what the default su password is? | 18:33 |
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| Eztran | devel-su uses nemo's password, which you can set in the Settings. | 18:33 |
| attah | there is none.. devel-su works like sudo | 18:34 |
| krnlyng | ah i see | 18:34 |
| krnlyng | thanks | 18:34 |
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| Quu | Claudy: you like the vibrating tit? :p | 18:40 |
| pvanhoof | krnlyng, im already happy that there is at least one company in europe writing smartphone software, and yeah let's hope enough for the company to sustain Claudy | 18:43 |
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| pvanhoof | buteo-mtp, is it keeping stuff awake? Because my windows pc asked me to convert a mp4 file, and by the time it was done converting it came back telling me that my jolla device stopped responding and that the file couldn't be copied | 18:49 |
| pvanhoof | sounds like a bug to me | 18:49 |
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| krnlyng | after only a few hours playing with my new jolla, my n9 seems extremely small :D | 18:50 |
| pvanhoof | Meanwhile jolla device's lcd went black, i noticed already that quite a lot of functions stop working correct whenever that happened (ssh connections failing, although a socket should be kept alive and power management shouldn't kill it) | 18:50 |
| Stskeeps | pvanhoof: it's for sure not nokia PM.. | 18:50 |
| Stskeeps | it's android reality | 18:51 |
| pvanhoof | Android has anything to do with buteo-mtp? how? | 18:51 |
| Stskeeps | well, android wakelocks etc | 18:51 |
| pvanhoof | Jolla's kernel uses android wakelocks? | 18:52 |
| Stskeeps | it does, it kinda has to in order to have any PM whatsoever | 18:52 |
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| pvanhoof | i'd say that while a usb copy over mtp is taking place, buteo-mtp needs to keep stuff for usb awake | 18:53 |
| Stskeeps | nokia spent ages to take a device and turn it into nokia style power management | 18:53 |
| Stskeeps | i do agree and it's a bug if it doesn't | 18:53 |
| pvanhoof | I hate to sell people, but didn't Peter De Schrijver work on the n9's PM a lot? I know he's still in HEL working for NVidia now. I can get in touch with him . | 18:54 |
| Stskeeps | yeah i know, but, in practice, android PM is the way to go; we get a full device adaptation from an ODM | 18:54 |
| pvanhoof | I'm not an expert in PM though | 18:54 |
| Stskeeps | it's about using the knobs correctly though | 18:54 |
| Stskeeps | which we aren't doing to a full extent yet | 18:54 |
| pvanhoof | ok | 18:54 |
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| pvanhoof | so basically, i just triggered a android wakelock bug with my jolla | 18:55 |
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| Stskeeps | well, rather, that the device got permission to fall into deep sleep | 18:55 |
| Stskeeps | because nothing stopped it | 18:55 |
| pvanhoof | isn't there any way that buteo-mtp could tell it not to? | 18:55 |
| Stskeeps | sure | 18:56 |
| pvanhoof | then do that | 18:56 |
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| Stskeeps | https://github.com/nemomobile/nemo-keepalive | 18:56 |
| pvanhoof | besides, it's connect to laptop-usb, it's charging anyway | 18:56 |
| Stskeeps | yeah that part was a bit mysterious | 18:56 |
| pvanhoof | ill check it out | 18:56 |
| Stskeeps | i would have expected it to stay up on us | 18:56 |
| Stskeeps | b | 18:56 |
| pvanhoof | nod | 18:56 |
| pvanhoof | the converting of the mp4 happens at the other side im guessing, upfront the actual copy, so if that takes too long and deep sleep gets triggered .. this happens? | 18:57 |
| pvanhoof | I haven't debugged this, but speculating that would be my best guess | 18:58 |
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| pvanhoof | ssh on my n9 had the same problem .. | 19:00 |
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| Stskeeps | check dmesg perhaps on device side | 19:01 |
| pvanhoof | meh, haven't enabled developer mode yet. | 19:04 |
| pvanhoof | (on this new device) | 19:04 |
| pvanhoof | but it looks like this is easily reproducable | 19:04 |
| pvanhoof | just any large mp4 made with n9, copied to windows, then copied over mtp to jolla | 19:05 |
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| pvanhoof | ok, tomorrow-evening ill try to reproduce | 19:10 |
| pvanhoof | perhaps it's a tracker bug anyway and then it's m fault :) | 19:10 |
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| pvanhoof_ | im making windows crash ... | 19:12 |
| pvanhoof_ | lol :) | 19:12 |
| pvanhoof_ | <pvanhoof> ok, tomorrow-evening ill try to reproduce | 19:13 |
| pvanhoof_ | <pvanhoof> perhaps it's a tracker bug anyway and then it's m fault :) | 19:13 |
| pvanhoof_ | <pvanhoof> happened again for another file, so that means hundreds of poor jolla owners are having to deal with this | 19:13 |
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| Venemo_j | heya :) | 19:30 |
| Venemo_j | Sfiet_Konstantin: your app is getting more awesome :) | 19:31 |
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| slate | When is the christmas going to come, in form of an update. Cant wait. :) | 19:33 |
| SpeedEvil | wait - what's his app again? | 19:37 |
| stephg | one of them is the FB | 19:37 |
| stephg | there may be others | 19:37 |
| SpeedEvil | ah | 19:37 |
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| AL13N | i got my SIM working, bastards had me pay extra to re-activate it | 19:42 |
| AL13N | but phone works nicely | 19:42 |
| AL13N | actually calling, that is | 19:42 |
| SpeedEvil | :) | 19:42 |
| AL13N | there is one thing, and that's if the other end hangs up, it seems not to hang up on your end | 19:43 |
| AL13N | (only after successful connection) | 19:43 |
| AL13N | but i had seen this reported | 19:43 |
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| Venemo_j | man, old Harmattan habbits die hard | 19:44 |
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| Venemo_j | I managed to quit trying to swipe from the bottom when wanting to get to the homescreen | 19:45 |
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| krnlyng | i cant find pkg-config for the jolla phone :O? | 19:54 |
| Stskeeps | it's there | 19:55 |
| krnlyng | oh | 19:55 |
| krnlyng | i searched for pkg-config | 19:55 |
| Stskeeps | Name: pkgconfig | 19:55 |
| krnlyng | yeah :) | 19:55 |
| krnlyng | thanks | 19:55 |
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| tango_ | so what does mulkvisti mean in finnish? | 20:35 |
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| slate | fucker. | 20:36 |
| Pnuu | tango_: SoB, bastard, dickhead | 20:36 |
| tango_ | so this https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1509186_481045012006016_1417502175_n.jpg is not really true? | 20:37 |
| Pnuu | :-D | 20:37 |
| slate | :) | 20:38 |
| tango_ | ok, maybe some finns use it as a term of endearment 8-D | 20:39 |
| tango_ | I think I'll call my friendfeed client for sailfish 'mulkvisti' | 20:39 |
| tango_ | how do you say feed in finnish, as in rss feed | 20:39 |
| Pnuu | syöte | 20:39 |
| tango_ | mulkvistisyöte | 20:40 |
| tango_ | lol | 20:40 |
| Pnuu | asocial media, here we come! | 20:40 |
| Gorith | any news about "stock rom" available for public? :) | 20:41 |
| Gorith | Jolla support seems to be a little bit slow with a real response | 20:41 |
| Gilly | tango_: a great name xD | 20:42 |
| joonahoi | Gorith: stock rom? | 20:44 |
| tango_ | I'm so happy I came across this word | 20:45 |
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| tango_ | Pnuu: it's all in the whitespace after all | 20:46 |
| tango_ | asocialnetwork | 20:46 |
| krnlyng | Stskeeps: hm now i cannot find in which package the GLESv2 headers are | 20:46 |
| joonahoi | tango_: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Finnish_vulgarities | 20:47 |
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| tango_ | why is alfred nussi classified as a finnish vulgarity? | 20:51 |
| tango_ | oh it's not a real name | 20:51 |
| tango_ | lol | 20:51 |
| joonahoi | :D | 20:51 |
| tango_ | I thought it was something like the santorum thing | 20:52 |
| mikma | tango_: because of the saying that includes that "name" in it ;) | 20:53 |
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| tango_ | mikma: yeah, found on the page explanation 8-D | 20:54 |
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| Gorith | joonahoi: data to flash my phone by myself, because I have now waited more that two weeks to get reply to my question about where the service is | 20:56 |
| joonahoi | oh :/ | 20:57 |
| slate | recovery not working? | 20:58 |
| Gorith | nope | 20:58 |
| slate | I once read somewhere that the partitions are pretty messed up on the device so its hard to release a factory image for public | 20:58 |
| Nicd- | anyone enabled verbose boot on jolla btw? | 20:59 |
| slate | Can be totally wrong, but someone may have more info on subject. | 20:59 |
| Stskeeps | slate: well, long story short we cannot release factory images due to 3rd party bits being in it | 21:00 |
| slate | liek, myriad-stuff? | 21:01 |
| Stskeeps | nah, hw adaptation | 21:01 |
| slate | okey. | 21:01 |
| slate | Enough of explanation for me, how about you Gorith :) | 21:02 |
| tehdely | Stskeeps: that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me TBQH | 21:04 |
| tehdely | nokia certainly released factory ROMS for n9 and i'm sure there was plenty of 3rd party stuff in there too | 21:04 |
| tehdely | as it is, you're already "distributing" it by selling people the device with those 3rd party bits on it | 21:04 |
| tehdely | it's not like distributing the source code... | 21:05 |
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| tehdely | not being able to rescue my own device is kind of a bummer | 21:05 |
| slate | Too small company, no leaks. | 21:06 |
| teve | samsung had a same problem with tizen phones, no OTA updates due to GPU driver policy. | 21:07 |
| faenil | tehdely, I guess it's in Jolla's best interest to help you do that, so that customers will be able to fix it for themselves...so just wait :) | 21:07 |
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| Gorith | without working (jolla)phone waiting is not so funny | 21:08 |
| faenil | Gorith, I can imagine... :/ | 21:08 |
| Gorith | at least I hope to get some more info about actual repair | 21:08 |
| Gorith | some more than that: https://jolla.zendesk.com/entries/30716267-Repair-Service-for-customers-of-Jolla-com | 21:08 |
| Gorith | and stupid questions to go to settings of other half and check the version number etc. | 21:10 |
| slate | I can run a repairshop for jolla.com customers in my garage, just supply my jigs, sw:s and parts. | 21:12 |
| slate | :) | 21:12 |
| tehdely | repair service for me is: | 21:12 |
| tehdely | * ship device to friend in Finland | 21:12 |
| tehdely | * pray | 21:12 |
| tehdely | so i will just try to keep the phone in good working order ;) | 21:12 |
| tehdely | i spilled tea on it yesterday. it was v. embarrassing | 21:12 |
| tehdely | thankfully the Jolla did not mind | 21:12 |
| ottulo | tehdely: did it float? | 21:13 |
| tehdely | it was not enough tea to find out | 21:13 |
| slate | Dont know if optima-service has imei-tracking on dna-sold devices or not. | 21:13 |
| pahartik | tehdely: What kind of tea did you perform that accident with? | 21:14 |
| tehdely | jasmine tea | 21:14 |
| tehdely | i was at a chinese restaurant | 21:14 |
| slate | Worst case, you send your device to them via a friend and they boomerang it back because of wrong retai-spot | 21:14 |
| tehdely | it was in one of those little cups, which was only half full | 21:14 |
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| pahartik | tehdely: Tea flavour acknowledged | 21:20 |
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| keithzg | Wait...no flashing utility? Really? Uh oh. That makes it a bit scary to use and tinker with a Jolla compared to the N9 or a Nexus device. Factory images are critical for peace of mind. | 21:23 |
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| Jonni | keithzg: thats why next recovery partition will have a shell option, so you can flash with dd any partition that you want. | 21:30 |
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| slate | depending on the existence of the backups? | 21:33 |
| keithzg | Jonni: Oh, well that's good. Better in some ways, even (although worse in others). | 21:34 |
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| AL13N | does 2G take less power than 3G ? | 21:48 |
| AL13N | since i have no mobile data/internet, i should connect to 2G only? | 21:48 |
| Quu | yes | 21:48 |
| Quu | erh, not sure | 21:49 |
| Quu | probably? | 21:49 |
| Stskeeps | 3g carries voice, too.. | 21:49 |
| tehdely | 2G does take somewhat less power. 3G will be more reliable though, esp. with handoffs | 21:50 |
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| ShadowJK | Without data transfer, 2g vs 3g standby is almost entirely network dependent which one will consume more power | 21:52 |
| AL13N | i can call fine when i select 2G only | 21:52 |
| ShadowJK | If both 2g and 3g have good coverage (and by that I mean neither is even close to showing anything except full signal bars), then 2g is going to give you a little bit better battery life | 21:53 |
| keithzg | 2G also has more of a tendency to burst-transmit, so it can be nice and nostalgic to hear the "beep beepbeepbeep" of audio-stage interference in nearby speakers (especially tiny unshielded ones like alarm clocks) when you're about to recieve a call ;) | 21:53 |
| AL13N | oic | 21:53 |
| * keithzg 's carrier is 3G only anyways, though. | 21:53 | |
| ShadowJK | In "mixed" environments, where sometimes 2g is better and sometimes 3g is better, I would leave it on the default dual mode "3g preferred" | 21:54 |
| AL13N | so, if 2G coverage is very good everywhere in the country, and 3G is "available" in alot of places... generally 3G will draw more power since it's likelier to be further away | 21:54 |
| ShadowJK | yep | 21:54 |
| AL13N | then i'll take 2G only | 21:54 |
| clau | AL13N, on N9 2G took less power than 3G | 21:54 |
| AL13N | i figured the extra bandwidth would draw a bit more power too | 21:55 |
| clau | and wifi less than 2G | 21:55 |
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| clau | I tested N9 with the power usage monitor (don't remember the exact name, will have to look) | 21:55 |
| ShadowJK | Well, for data transfer, 2g and 3g behave very differently. | 21:55 |
| clau | well, 3G ate a lot more than 2G, even without transfers | 21:56 |
| clau | just being connected ate a shitload | 21:56 |
| pp_ | 4g being even worse I believe :) | 21:56 |
| ShadowJK | then something somewhere was seriously misconfigured. | 21:56 |
| dschoepe | note that 2G is a lot less secure. I saw a talk from a few years ago where they were able to listen in on 2G calls using four $20 phones. (without impersonating a base station or so) | 21:56 |
| clau | I think I still have some records saved on the phone | 21:56 |
| AL13N | phone traffic is by definition insecure | 21:56 |
| keithzg | Yeah the security on GSM is...weak, to say the least. | 21:56 |
| clau | that's been known for years | 21:57 |
| clau | or decades, by now | 21:57 |
| ShadowJK | The thing about 3g is that, roughly speaking, any single data packet in either direction uses as much power as maximum bandwidth transfer, for an operator-dependent time, up to 5 seconds | 21:57 |
| keithzg | I think it was confirmed recently that the poor encryption used was indeed due to pressure from intelligence agencies. | 21:57 |
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| dschoepe | AL13N: well, it depends on the attacker model, I suppose. for 2G you need to invest significantly less effort | 21:58 |
| ShadowJK | So imagine IRC, and enough channel activity that something happens every 5 seconds, it's the same power consumption as downloading a big file | 21:58 |
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| clau | ok, the name of the tool on N9 is Energy Profiler | 21:58 |
| artemma | Venemo_j: ping | 21:58 |
| clau | let me see if I have any history saved | 21:58 |
| AL13N | ShadowJK: is that the same for 4G? | 21:59 |
| ShadowJK | I remember N900 getting warm in my pocket on 3g, when I had forgotten to turn sshd off, and someone was trying to bruteforce my password :) | 21:59 |
| AL13N | it's a sign | 21:59 |
| pp_ | with 4G you get to send IP packets over sctp directly to the operator code more or less | 21:59 |
| ShadowJK | AL13N; hard to say. And also, so many different things called 4G and lte.. | 21:59 |
| pp_ | s/code/core/ :-) | 21:59 |
| AL13N | ic | 21:59 |
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| ShadowJK | it's the cdma part that makes 3g non-optimal for frequent low-rate data transfer | 22:00 |
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| ShadowJK | and I believe lte in europe also uses cdma type schemes | 22:00 |
| ShadowJK | whereas china uses TDD which is similar to 2g in power use for frequent low-rate transfers | 22:01 |
| clau | mean values for: wifi = 13.76 mA, 2G = 71.53 mA, 3G = 108.32 mA | 22:01 |
| clau | I think I ran it for some minutes only | 22:01 |
| pp_ | e.g. http://www.slideshare.net/geovedi/hitb-labs-practical-attacks-against-3g4g-telecommunication-networks is interesting :-) | 22:01 |
| clau | note, I don't remember if it was 2G, or 2.5G | 22:01 |
| ShadowJK | Jolla connected on 3g has standby time of over a week anyway (with tohd stopped) | 22:02 |
| clau | yes, Jolla handles 3G very well | 22:02 |
| clau | that's why I don't bother with 2G anymore, just in places where I know 3G signal is weak and I don't want it to keep switching between 2G and #g | 22:02 |
| clau | 3G | 22:02 |
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| ShadowJK | any phone not generating or receiving lots of random data should be quite similar actually | 22:03 |
| clau | I remember that my Nokia E71 handled 3G much worse than N9 | 22:03 |
| * keithzg will probably have to rely on WiFi-only for his Jolla, heh. | 22:04 | |
| clau | I always assumed that 3G implementation was improved over time | 22:04 |
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| ShadowJK | even N900 connected to 3g has standby time of "Gosh, over a week has gone by and it's still alive, fuck this batterylife test I want to use it again" :P | 22:04 |
| clau | :D | 22:04 |
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| pp_ | 2g is great for geocaching in the forest on the n900 :-) | 22:05 |
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| clau | what about neo900? what's the state of the project? | 22:06 |
| ShadowJK | I found I wanted 3g when in the woods with N900 and Maep :) | 22:06 |
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| ShadowJK | (and a really fast microsd for Maep to abuse its database on) | 22:07 |
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| keithzg | Heh my sister got rather frequent free upgrades to the microSD cards she was using in her N8 and Cowon D2 around that time, since I kept buying ones, finding out that they were actually pretty slow, and handed them off when I would impulsively buy another in hopes it was faster ;) | 22:10 |
| AL13N | what is actually a "fast µSD"? | 22:11 |
| AL13N | how fast is that? | 22:11 |
| ShadowJK | A-data ultra high speed, Samsung Pro, Sandisk Extreme (available in two speed ranges, the slower range is actually faster for small files) | 22:12 |
| AL13N | (and reliable) | 22:12 |
| ShadowJK | I consider anything over 30 IOPS fast. | 22:12 |
| ShadowJK | (as most are 1-4) | 22:12 |
| keithzg | The listed speeds for (micro)SD cards are kindof meaningless when you aren't just copying files on or off them. Complex operations with many tiny reads and writes seem to not at all be what manufacturers generally optimize for. | 22:12 |
| ShadowJK | indeed | 22:12 |
| AL13N | ic | 22:13 |
| ShadowJK | The cards I listed above are the best I've found for tiny writes | 22:13 |
| keithzg | I mean, the same is true of SSDs to a degree, but at least there are sites out there which run extensive tests on different usage scenarios. | 22:13 |
| keithzg | Hmm good to know. | 22:13 |
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| keithzg | I hadn't found any that really seemed too good to me before I eventually just got an N9 ;) | 22:14 |
| ShadowJK | The basic constraint, simplified, of the underlying flash storage is: Reads can be random access with little penalty. Erases can only take place on big blocks on the order of 4-8Megabytes. Such a block can be written sequentially 4-16k at a time. | 22:15 |
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| ShadowJK | So the tiny cpu inside a uSD often ends up in a situation where it does read-modify-write of 8M when the host wanted to write 4k in some random place. | 22:16 |
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| cvp | any news about new Update ? will arive this month ? | 22:17 |
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| Eztran | cvp: their Twitter says yes. https://twitter.com/JollaHQ/status/426013467028774912 | 22:18 |
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| Venemo | artemma: pong | 22:20 |
| cvp | Eztran: cool thanks :D | 22:22 |
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