| artemma | Aard: I don't know much about pkcon and version. So whats the right way? Or both? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Aard | artemma: 'version' is just a shellscript wrapping pkcon (amongst other things) | 00:00 |
| artemma | okay, so if I want more logs, I better to run pkcon then | 00:01 |
| Aard | pkcon get-updates should give a list, and do nothing else, while version --dup tells pkcon do do the update | 00:01 |
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| artemma | so which line? get-updates or get-distro-upgrades? or both? | 00:01 |
| Aard | no, version --dup will give you a list of packages, but only _after_ it installed it | 00:01 |
| Quu | always nice to have customer service at 2am | 00:02 |
| Aard | version --dup does pkcon refresh; pkcon upgrade-system jolla-configuration-sbj complete (you get the idea why I did that shortcut? :p) | 00:02 |
| artemma | yes, I am also excited about IRC support, many jolla and not jolla people helped me a lot here | 00:02 |
| * artemma was always finding a striking contrast between IRC atmosphere and official Jolla comms to be honest | 00:03 | |
| Quu | Aard: btw, if you want/need to take a look at my phone, i might have day off next week | 00:03 |
| artemma | well, retrying version --dup then | 00:03 |
| Quu | my job is bit retarded, they might call me 2h before work starts :p | 00:03 |
| Aard | Quu: it'll be up to sage/stskeeps to decide that, they are doing the investigation into that issue | 00:04 |
| Quu | ok :) | 00:04 |
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| Nicd- | is there a new update?! | 00:07 |
| Quu | no | 00:07 |
| Aard | Nicd-: you need to wait a bit longer :) | 00:08 |
| Quu | but we need everything now | 00:08 |
| Nicd- | oh :( | 00:08 |
| Nicd- | just read "artemma installed latest official firmware update" | 00:08 |
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| artemma | Aard: version --dup completed and from the list I see only harbour apps updates | 00:09 |
| artemma | no system updates | 00:09 |
| Quu | yeah, were probably harbour apps here too | 00:09 |
| artemma | so I basically updated all store apps | 00:09 |
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| Quu | atleast warehouse or whatever and mitakuuluu | 00:09 |
| artemma | Including the downgrade of my wonderfull Flashlight with control-from-app-cover to the official version that shuts light off when you minimize the app :) | 00:10 |
| Aard | artemma: ok, so at least we know that update didn't fail :) | 00:10 |
| Morpog_ | artemma, I tried the app and it works as intended, though I guess I won't use it that much, as flicking through my 4 apps pages is still faster than launching and typing | 00:12 |
| * artemma thinking on if quick launcher could read app list even faster… I can cache the app list | 00:13 | |
| artemma | Morpog_: do you think it would influence if launcher was blazing fast? | 00:13 |
| artemma | or the whole idea is clumsy? | 00:13 |
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| TemeV | artemma: why don't you publish your apps at openrepos? | 00:14 |
| * artemma wants fast track for his apps… I mean for very useful apps from devs that are known to submit high quality code :) | 00:14 | |
| Morpog_ | the idea is not bad, just not for every user out there | 00:14 |
| Morpog_ | with more apps and screens it could be great for some users | 00:15 |
| artemma | Morpog_: that's what I am trying to understand. What's the use case and why it doesn't match yours | 00:15 |
| artemma | just windering | 00:15 |
| Morpog_ | although with folder support sometime in future it could be less needed | 00:15 |
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| * artemma notices for himself, that milliseconds matter. If it was two times faster, maybe I would use it more myself | 00:15 | |
| Morpog_ | launching an app quickly is the use case | 00:15 |
| Morpog_ | flicking though my well ordered app grid is faster for me | 00:16 |
| artemma | so swiping and looking for you is faster than launcher and typing, got it. Now the question is what could be speeded up if anything. | 00:16 |
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| Morpog_ | integration into jolla launcher, but you cannot do that :) | 00:16 |
| artemma | like the launching itself can be speeded up for sure, but typing on a keyboard is still typing on a keyboard | 00:16 |
| artemma | true, there are no widgets for home screen | 00:17 |
| TemeV | with vkb anything that requires typing is slow and clumsy | 00:17 |
| artemma | hmm, cover page can contain any qml, TextEdit too possibly :) | 00:17 |
| Morpog_ | so, as I said, it may be a great app for other users | 00:17 |
| Morpog_ | like with messy grid with unordered apps and lots of apps installed | 00:17 |
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| artemma | TemeV: I don't want to care about openrepos support. I am only motivated to do harbour-compatible stuff anyway | 00:18 |
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| TemeV | openrepos is just faster way to publish apps | 00:19 |
| artemma | hmm, flashlight with cover control could go to openrepos actually while I am figuring out the proper way to do it for harbout | 00:19 |
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| artemma | TemeV: few days don't matter, extra headache from synchronization and support do | 00:19 |
| artemma | when I want to get immediate satisfaction kick few days before harbour, I can get it by posting link here and on twitter | 00:20 |
| Morpog_ | openrepos has stats too btw ;) | 00:20 |
| artemma | and I actually get more then from openrepos this way as bit.ly provides stats, openrepos to my understanding doesn't | 00:20 |
| artemma | ah, ok, didn't realize it | 00:21 |
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| TemeV | ok | 00:22 |
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| artemma | Hey, there's MeeCast available on OpenRepos! | 00:31 |
| * artemma went to try it | 00:31 | |
| Quu | didnt even work here | 00:32 |
| TemeV | MeeCast for Jolla? Why it is not JoCast or SailCast? :) | 00:32 |
| Quu | did not load any weather info | 00:32 |
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| Quu | tried couple diffrent cities in diffrent continents | 00:32 |
| artemma | Quu: tried clicking check for updates? | 00:34 |
| Quu | yes | 00:34 |
| artemma | works for weather.com and Helsinki for me | 00:34 |
| Quu | didnt say anything | 00:34 |
| artemma | looking at the forecast is depressing though | 00:35 |
| Quu | seems like using it disconnects wlan | 00:35 |
| Morpog_ | quu there is an update for that bug in openrepos | 00:35 |
| Quu | ok, letssee | 00:35 |
| Morpog_ | you need to delete all citys after update | 00:36 |
| Quu | i have latest version | 00:36 |
| TemeV | yr.no and tampere seems to work ok | 00:37 |
| Quu | need to try to update when im sober :p | 00:37 |
| TemeV | it even promises quite decent weather | 00:37 |
| TemeV | "about" is the first thing at the pulley menu | 00:39 |
| TemeV | I'm not sure if that is the most important thing... :) | 00:39 |
| TemeV | there is no icon for meecast | 00:41 |
| TemeV | is just me or do you have the same bug? | 00:41 |
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| Quu | on launcher? | 00:44 |
| Quu | i have icon | 00:45 |
| TemeV | you had installed same earlier version? | 00:47 |
| TemeV | *some | 00:47 |
| Quu | maybe | 00:47 |
| Quu | not sure | 00:47 |
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| Quu | no, probably not | 00:49 |
| * artemma reads bad comments about android apps in store again. IMO it's really not about Android, but about quality of Android support on Jolla. Android apps on BB10 are just fine, because they are almost like native ones. Android on Jolla.. often doesn't even start if you happen to have both Browser and Maps running. No surprise people want less of this poor experience | 00:50 | |
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| SpeedEvil | On a related matter. | 01:16 |
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| SpeedEvil | Is there any way to make an android app more 'jolla compatible' - or is it forever going to be different. | 01:16 |
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| javispedro | I have no problems with Android programs | 01:59 |
| javispedro | in fact, I once realized that I had hit some bug where I could not slide out the aliendalvik window... | 02:00 |
| javispedro | and didn't realize until after a few minutes.... | 02:00 |
| * javispedro finds that very worrying. | 02:00 | |
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| flux | well, running >1 android app at the same time in jolla isn't a very jolla-like experience | 08:24 |
| flux | I think there's potential in faking it :) | 08:25 |
| flux | but actually that's my only problem with the android support.. (barring bugs and unsupported features) | 08:25 |
| * tbr managed to reduce his need for android apps to g+ and ingress, everything else I have native replacements for. | 08:27 | |
| Quu | eww g+ :p | 08:29 |
| Nicd- | G+ is nice, the worst part is that they don't have an API | 08:30 |
| * tbr likes it for the embedded linux crowd hanging out there | 08:30 | |
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| AL13N | i'm new to QML, i have a page with a ListView ( a model) and a page with ListDetail... how can i, in the ListDetail page, access the ListModel (or at least the current item?) | 08:40 |
| tbr | #sailfishos | 08:41 |
| AL13N | tbr: i crossposted, cause noone answers =-( | 08:41 |
| AL13N | trouble finding the correct examples / documentation | 08:41 |
| AL13N | too bad the settings isn't open source, i could've peeked how it worked | 08:42 |
| mikma | i wonder what's the future with WhatsApp | 08:42 |
| tbr | what about the component gallery? | 08:42 |
| Nicd- | how so? | 08:42 |
| Nicd- | mikma | 08:42 |
| AL13N | tbr: component gallery? | 08:43 |
| tbr | the one that's installed in the SDK emulator | 08:43 |
| mikma | nicd-: mitäkuuluu developement has been halted and whatsapp doesn't work that well (yet) on jolla | 08:43 |
| AL13N | ah... er... well, i don't have the SDK installed, i'm doing qml on the phone | 08:43 |
| Nicd- | mikma: halted? | 08:44 |
| Quu | https://openrepos.net/content/coderus/mitakuuluu | 08:44 |
| mikma | nicd-: yeap. http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1400694&postcount=1 | 08:45 |
| Nicd- | well he says it's halted until sync fixed so apparently not halted forever | 08:47 |
| mikma | what i heard it's because of whatsapp's end | 08:47 |
| Quu | maybe whatsapp blocked it? :) | 08:47 |
| Nicd- | that's how I understood it | 08:48 |
| Nicd- | I think whatsapp changed their sync API and it's not working in any other client either or something | 08:48 |
| Quu | probably | 08:48 |
| Quu | but could just be that they blocked everything else | 08:48 |
| mikma | wouldn't be a problem if the original app would work | 08:49 |
| mikma | but oh well.. atleast facepalm works well | 08:50 |
| tbr | AL13N: I think it's sailfish-components-gallery-qt5 - but it might not have a launcher button | 08:50 |
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| mikma | also, mitäkuuluu does constantly drop it's status to "connecting" on me | 08:53 |
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| Nicd- | it works quite fine on my phone | 08:54 |
| Stskeeps | apis are probably the best lockdown i've ever seen | 08:54 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 08:54 |
| Nicd- | haven't had any problems with connections | 08:54 |
| Nicd- | hope coderus continues development sometime though, I paid for this app :D | 08:55 |
| mikma | that's ... horrible | 08:55 |
| meShell | had the connection problem, too with mitäkuuluu, when coming home and so switching to wlan | 08:55 |
| mikma | oh | 08:55 |
| mikma | that might actually be the reason | 08:56 |
| Nicd- | mikma? | 08:56 |
| mikma | nicd-: supporting someone of doing something cool and then he stops | 08:56 |
| Quu | mikma: i also have connection drops | 08:57 |
| Nicd- | mikma: well, it's a donation vs actually buying | 08:57 |
| mikma | quu: meshell has a good point, i did leave my home yesterday, and connected to another wifi too before i came back home. | 08:58 |
| mikma | stop touching me, nicd- | 08:58 |
| mikma | ;) | 08:58 |
| Trizt | Nicd-: not really, many bought applications has been discontinued too leaving the buyers totally unable to get security fixes | 08:59 |
| Quu | like windows xp. | 08:59 |
| mikma | and like android | 08:59 |
| tbr | they fixed a resource hog bug on winxp the other day. ;) | 08:59 |
| Nicd- | mikma: shhh | 09:00 |
| Nicd- | Quu: well, they did support windows xp for over 10 years | 09:00 |
| mikma | nicd-: latest stable irssi btw | 09:00 |
| Nicd- | mikma: was just going to say you don't have to type out everyone's name :P | 09:00 |
| mikma | nicd-: ni <tab> true | 09:01 |
| Quu | mikma pls, use tabcomplete | 09:02 |
| mikma | Unknown command: tabcomplete | 09:03 |
| mikma | oh man :I | 09:03 |
| Quu | oh god. | 09:03 |
| Nicd- | mikma: so you know. just looks a little odd with everyone's nick in lowercase :P | 09:04 |
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| QUU | is this better? :p | 09:04 |
| mikma | quu: doesn't change a thing :D | 09:04 |
| mikma | nicd-: yeah i have a setting that actually lowercases the tabcomplete | 09:05 |
| QUU | eww | 09:05 |
| QUU | why | 09:05 |
| *** QUU is now known as Quu | 09:05 | |
| mikma | because people have full uppercase nicks and i hate them :D | 09:05 |
| Quu | hating people is ok, but you need to proper english mate | 09:06 |
| Nicd- | mikma: ah | 09:06 |
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| mikma | it's ok, i'm not english so i can make mistakes all i want! there's always some grammarnazi that corrects people | 09:06 |
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| AL13N | arg, why is everything on my QML page pasted on top of eachother instead of neatly in rows | 10:02 |
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| AL13N | anyone here did some of their own app building? | 10:04 |
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| entil | AL13N: I have an app in development, though I've been down with a fever for most of the week so it's been slow | 10:18 |
| entil | but I can't really help with qml, it seemed as hard as html and css, or harder, and I really don't know why that is | 10:19 |
| entil | for some reason it's easier to visualize an algorithm than figure out how to put graphical elements in reasonable places | 10:19 |
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| AL13N | entil: i found out some stuff | 10:37 |
| AL13N | i'm gonna post this someplace | 10:37 |
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| Stskeeps | artemma: you still have shutdowns, btw? | 11:35 |
| artemma | Stskeeps: yes, and I have a long pending todo item to send you some crash logs with comments | 11:35 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 11:36 |
| artemma | got some 100+ by now. | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | and it's every time uncontrolled, as in, no notifications or red LED? | 11:36 |
| artemma | typical number of shutdowns while traveling: 5-20 a day. Typical number in hme invironment 1-3 | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | where do you travel through and do you often dump to 2g onlky? | 11:36 |
| artemma | Stskeeps: hard to say, I don't watch it and it often happens in the pocket, so I notice it when I take phone out of it | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 11:36 |
| artemma | yeah, both 3G and WiFi | 11:37 |
| artemma | had very similar picture with SaintPeterburg 3G and Ukrainian 2G | 11:37 |
| artemma | what seems to be a trigger is a network activity soon after hand over | 11:37 |
| artemma | regardless of whether it's mobile data or wifi activity | 11:38 |
| artemma | hence it happens a lot on traveling | 11:38 |
| artemma | interestingly thing that seems to crash most often is some audio server | 11:38 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, that's the android stuff, no surprise there | 11:38 |
| artemma | android? | 11:38 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 11:38 |
| Stskeeps | but unrelated to this issue | 11:38 |
| artemma | Most annoying things I had was cycled shutdowns | 11:39 |
| artemma | phone shuts down, I turn it back in, enter pin code, some 2-5 sec later it shuts down again. The cycle repeats | 11:39 |
| Stskeeps | as in trying hard to boot up? | 11:39 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 11:39 |
| Nicd- | I had issues booting after a shutdown | 11:40 |
| artemma | Once I was trying to check in in a movie theater so the situation continued for an hour at least :) | 11:40 |
| artemma | then it fixed itself without any reason obvious to me | 11:40 |
| Nicd- | when I pressed the power button, the phone vibrated and the jolla screen came up, then it went black, jolla screen came up again with red LED, then it shut down | 11:40 |
| Nicd- | this happened 4 or 5 times | 11:40 |
| artemma | hmm.. maybe I exited the theater room and got to good connection area? | 11:40 |
| Nicd- | when I tried to boot it | 11:40 |
| Stskeeps | artemma: can you grab me the contents of /var/lib/upower/ ? | 11:44 |
| Stskeeps | those might be very interesting | 11:44 |
| Stskeeps | Quu: you too | 11:44 |
| Quu | wut | 11:44 |
| artemma | Stskeeps, will do tonight | 11:44 |
| Quu | tar em or what? | 11:44 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 11:44 |
| artemma | running out now | 11:44 |
| Stskeeps | it has full logs of battery levels | 11:44 |
| Stskeeps | it seems | 11:44 |
| Stskeeps | (thanks thp ) | 11:44 |
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| AL13N | i got the strangest thing | 14:26 |
| AL13N | between the battery level and the 3G icon, i got a small green bar... what does it do/signify??? | 14:27 |
| AL13N | never seen this before | 14:27 |
| PeperJohnny | It appears if you're online on a chat client like facebook | 14:27 |
| AL13N | oic | 14:27 |
| AL13N | that could be it | 14:27 |
| AL13N | btw: if you have a SIM without data | 14:28 |
| AL13N | but i'm still seeing 3G | 14:28 |
| AL13N | that's a bit odd | 14:28 |
| PeperJohnny | You could change your status to not avaible and it would turn to orange | 14:28 |
| AL13N | (also, i'm unable to actually call or be called) | 14:28 |
| PeperJohnny | AL13N: strange indeed | 14:28 |
| AL13N | internet is checked off in the settings too | 14:28 |
| AL13N | but still 3G keeps appearing | 14:28 |
| Stskeeps | 3g is voice too | 14:29 |
| AL13N | is this normal? | 14:29 |
| AL13N | oic | 14:29 |
| AL13N | i didn't know | 14:29 |
| javispedro | heh | 14:29 |
| AL13N | Stskeeps: about not being able to call or be called, any idea how to debug this? | 14:29 |
| AL13N | Stskeeps: the ISP has a webpage that gives call history, and calls are appearing there, but a bit odd | 14:29 |
| AL13N | Stskeeps: +32485XXXXXX appears like 32c4899485XXXXXX | 14:30 |
| AL13N | Stskeeps: are there some kind of country dialer settings that need to be set? | 14:30 |
| AL13N | (or unset?) | 14:30 |
| javispedro | AL13N: do the other calls there appear using the +CCNNNNNN syntax? | 14:31 |
| Stskeeps | that does not sound healthy.. | 14:31 |
| AL13N | javispedro: the old phone did have it listed as +CCNNNNNNN | 14:31 |
| AL13N | next to it is a categorisation and it says that this is "premium voice service" | 14:32 |
| AL13N | which is normally 3XXX | 14:32 |
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| AL13N | now, the journalctl -f does show +CCNNNNNN numbers | 14:33 |
| AL13N | when i dial | 14:33 |
| AL13N | and since i didn't call/use that sim for over a month, i'm not 100% certain that this is not the ISP's fault | 14:34 |
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| AL13N | but, contacts and all works well | 14:34 |
| AL13N | Stskeeps: any idea on debugging this? or should i email care@ ? | 14:34 |
| Stskeeps | AL13N: first off, don't ask on a sunday :) | 14:34 |
| AL13N | i don't want to bother them, if it's not necesary | 14:34 |
| AL13N | heh | 14:34 |
| AL13N | Stskeeps: tbh, i already asked yesterday :-) | 14:35 |
| AL13N | but noone was here at the time | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | saturday... | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:35 |
| AL13N | yes, i know | 14:35 |
| AL13N | but i had to recover phone contacts from old phone first, so i got that done saturday | 14:35 |
| faenil | anyone with hw experience here? | 14:35 |
| javispedro | what are those "saturdays" and "sundays" you mention? can you actually skip doing work during those days? | 14:36 |
| AL13N | faenil: TOH hw or phone hw or embedded hw? | 14:36 |
| AL13N | javispedro: haha | 14:36 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: it was a big mistake that people told me what weekend was. | 14:36 |
| AL13N | lol | 14:36 |
| AL13N | Stskeeps: you discover weekend when you have babies :-) | 14:37 |
| faenil | AL13N, about loudspeakers | 14:37 |
| faenil | phone ones | 14:37 |
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| AL13N | sorry, only about surround sets and regular headphone | 14:38 |
| faenil | oki, I want to do some experiment, but don't know to what exchange I can replace the loudspeaker of a phone with the loudspeaker from another phone | 14:38 |
| faenil | s/exchange/extent/ | 14:39 |
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| AL13N | yes | 14:45 |
| AL13N | the plugs are either 3 or 4 and they are all the same | 14:45 |
| AL13N | besides loudspeakers in general are replacable, you only need to be aware about oversteering sound if a loudspeaker has an internal amplifier | 14:46 |
| AL13N | can be any speaker in general | 14:46 |
| faenil | AL13N, awesome, that's what I was hoping :) | 14:47 |
| AL13N | even if it doesn't work well, (as long as you don't oversteer sound, it doesn't matter, so you just need to set low volume before testing | 14:47 |
| faenil | AL13N, though I don't know about the packages in phones...it's a problem even if they have a flex on the wrong side, for instance :D | 14:48 |
| AL13N | a speaker is no more than 2 wires and a magnetic coil | 14:48 |
| AL13N | packages? | 14:48 |
| faenil | AL13N, you know, when they're assembled in phones they usually have tiny shells or something | 14:49 |
| faenil | custom stuff | 14:49 |
| AL13N | in speakers there's no real polarity | 14:50 |
| AL13N | only for the common grnd is there a few components | 14:50 |
| AL13N | in any case, if you keep volume low-ish, you can just plug it in without issue to both phone and speaker | 14:51 |
| AL13N | Stskeeps: no idea on debugging dialer? i did email dialplan provider, but unsure where the problem is... | 14:53 |
| AL13N | in the mean time, i'm working on a systemd UI with qml :-) | 14:54 |
| AL13N | and i'm gonna try some kind of PoC with dbus connections and security | 14:54 |
| faenil | AL13N, I meant also plastic shells, not "functional" shells | 14:56 |
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| faenil | I mean, if you want to replace the speaker it has to fit :p | 14:56 |
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| faenil | I don't if the sizes are all the same | 14:56 |
| AL13N | oic | 14:56 |
| AL13N | ah, then you're fine | 14:56 |
| AL13N | but check the Ohm of the speaker | 14:57 |
| AL13N | they should be similar | 14:57 |
| AL13N | but speakers come in various sizes, if they don't fit, then you're screwed :-) | 14:57 |
| faenil | AL13N, it's not like you can have tech sheet about phone speakers :p | 14:57 |
| AL13N | why not? | 14:58 |
| faenil | yeah that's the problem :p | 14:58 |
| faenil | AL13N, because there doesn't seem to be a "model" they all have codes on top of them | 14:58 |
| AL13N | ask the shell company about the white papers | 14:58 |
| faenil | which bring you nowhere | 14:58 |
| faenil | at least google brings you nowhere | 14:58 |
| faenil | ah yeah ok, got to ask the manufacturer | 14:58 |
| AL13N | or at least the speaker specifications | 14:58 |
| AL13N | though i'm pretty sure there's a few common sizes | 14:59 |
| AL13N | people in an electronics shop also might now | 14:59 |
| faenil | AL13N, yeah it would be cool find some info about that | 15:00 |
| AL13N | often they have various whitpapers that aren't otherwise available | 15:00 |
| faenil | mm you say? about phones speakers? | 15:00 |
| faenil | okay | 15:00 |
| AL13N | well, not any electronics shop | 15:00 |
| AL13N | but not far from where i live there is one, that can make a pci board if you bring your designs | 15:00 |
| AL13N | and they can help you with the design, or you can order a design that does something specific | 15:01 |
| AL13N | those people will know :-) | 15:01 |
| faenil | AL13N, ah yeah indeed...haven't seen anything like that :D | 15:01 |
| AL13N | not that many of those around, but there are | 15:02 |
| Kiranos_ | If there is an account associated with ***@****.com you will receive an email with a link to reset your password. | 15:02 |
| AL13N | they are the shops where you can get any kind of component | 15:02 |
| Kiranos_ | ugh | 15:02 |
| AL13N | like resistors and stuff | 15:02 |
| Kiranos_ | if there is? db check and tell me if there is or not,.. | 15:02 |
| AL13N | Kiranos_: that sounds like a security feature | 15:03 |
| faenil | AL13N, the issue is I'm an electronic n00b | 15:03 |
| Kiranos_ | AL13N: for what? | 15:03 |
| AL13N | faenil: Aard is someone who might know more than me, (or knows someone that knows more than him) | 15:03 |
| AL13N | Kiranos_: for bruteforce email mining | 15:03 |
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| petantik | A preventative measure. | 15:11 |
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| clau | AL13N, 3G is not reserved for data connections. | 15:22 |
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| clau | in Romania there's a provider that works exclusively over 3G, afaik. | 15:25 |
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| clau | nevermind... I just noticed Stskeeps already answered your concern. | 15:28 |
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| AL13N | clau: though that may be true, the sim i have is old and should not have any data, let alone work over 3G | 16:02 |
| AL13N | though i donno if that's related... | 16:03 |
| AL13N | ah well, i never saw this before, but that may not have been visible in a "real" phone | 16:03 |
| AL13N | btw: anyone know if i can run the SDK in a KVM ? | 16:04 |
| AL13N | i wonder if i could convert the builder to kvm and just use my native kdevelop for the C code | 16:05 |
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| AL13N | now that my QML is mostly ok (tested on phone), i kinda need do use some C++ | 16:05 |
| mornfall | AL13N: Most likely, yes. | 16:05 |
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| AL13N | to file the datamodel | 16:06 |
| AL13N | *fill | 16:06 |
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| tbr | AL13N: yes, just qemu-convert the vbox image | 16:06 |
| AL13N | i wonder if i could subclass the listmodel for something that fetches the data ondemand from dbus | 16:06 |
| tbr | AL13N: you'll have to figure out the homedir mapping yourself though, as that relies on vbox shared folders | 16:06 |
| tbr | prolly nfs or such | 16:07 |
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| AL13N | tbr: i just need it to build C++ code to armv7hf | 16:07 |
| mornfall | AL13N: you can build on the phone btw. :) | 16:07 |
| AL13N | mornfall: for real? | 16:07 |
| AL13N | hmm | 16:07 |
| mornfall | sure, I built dnsmasq on it | 16:07 |
| mornfall | after having a fight with the SDK | 16:07 |
| mornfall | (which I lost) | 16:08 |
| AL13N | mornfall: :-) | 16:08 |
| AL13N | mornfall: is there some kind of task-* package for building? | 16:08 |
| tbr | it's not as slow as it used to be, but it's not lightning fast | 16:08 |
| mornfall | AL13N: no idea, I just pkcon installed rpm-build and a toolchain | 16:08 |
| AL13N | ok, thanks for the info | 16:08 |
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| tbr | there's likely a package group | 16:08 |
| mornfall | not sure about Qt, but that's probably around somewhere too | 16:08 |
| mornfall | it's faster than my ARM NAS, that's for sure | 16:09 |
| AL13N | first i'm gonna try and add a systemd service file for openvpn... need to check if this is mer or nemo | 16:09 |
| mornfall | hah, I already have that :D | 16:11 |
| AL13N | mornfall: i was gonna used the multiservice one from Mageia | 16:12 |
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| AL13N | so that you have openvpn@config1.service | 16:12 |
| mornfall | ok, I just cobbled together a custom unit | 16:12 |
| AL13N | etc.. | 16:12 |
| mornfall | with a hardcoded config file | 16:12 |
| AL13N | cause i have multiple ones | 16:12 |
| mornfall | connman is a lost cause as far as DNS goes so I had to hook up dnsmasq into the thing | 16:12 |
| AL13N | btw: what's the way of getting this upstreamed? should i email a patch? or fork with pull-requests? or? | 16:12 |
| AL13N | mornfall: it seems that connman doesn't get my DNS from ipv6 | 16:13 |
| AL13N | mornfall: i'm also working on a systemd UI :-) | 16:13 |
| mornfall | :-) | 16:13 |
| AL13N | but i'm new on all of this | 16:14 |
| * mornfall too | 16:14 | |
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| AL13N | i got the qml for systemd, but now i need to get the dbus calls for systemd stuff | 16:14 |
| mornfall | you most likely want to check out mer | 16:14 |
| mornfall | for things like openvpn | 16:14 |
| mornfall | and systemd | 16:14 |
| AL13N | i found this: http://gitweb.merproject.org/gitweb?p=mer-core/openvpn.git;a=summary | 16:14 |
| AL13N | but | 16:14 |
| AL13N | no idea how to contribute | 16:14 |
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| AL13N | Stskeeps: should know, since i'm seeing his contributions... | 16:15 |
| AL13N | Stskeeps: how do i get a mer account for the git? | 16:15 |
| Stskeeps | log in with google account | 16:15 |
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| AL13N | ... | 16:16 |
| * AL13N sighs | 16:16 | |
| mornfall | AL13N: apparently you want to create an account on bugs.merproject.org | 16:16 |
| Stskeeps | not for the git stuff | 16:17 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:17 |
| mornfall | the wiki is "great" | 16:18 |
| mornfall | doesn't tell you a thing | 16:18 |
| tbr | it's a wiki, fix it | 16:18 |
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| AL13N | Stskeeps: doesn't jolla have a openID provider too? or isn't that connected? | 16:26 |
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| mornfall | tbr: great idea, only the info that's not there is not there... how would I learn it? | 16:29 |
| mornfall | AL13N: anyway, you can always create BZs with patches I guess | 16:30 |
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| clau | AL13N, maybe this helps too: https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Contribution_in_detail | 16:38 |
| tbr | mornfall: I thought you had figured out some things already? | 16:39 |
| Bysmyyr | change picture | 16:40 |
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| Bysmyyr | aa, sorry, | 16:40 |
| Bysmyyr | wrong time, noce answer about 20h ago | 16:40 |
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| AL13N | clau: already read it and done it | 16:44 |
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| clau | damn... it appears I'm way too slow today :) | 16:45 |
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| AL13N | :-) | 16:53 |
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| AL13N | Stskeeps: should i let the openvpn service be wanted post-user-session, or pre-user-session ? | 16:57 |
| AL13N | or maybe i should keep openvpn on demand | 16:57 |
| Stskeeps | well, neither, on demand | 16:57 |
| AL13N | ok | 16:57 |
| mornfall | what does on demand mean in this context? | 16:57 |
| AL13N | it means someone need to find a UI to start the systemd service for openvpn | 16:58 |
| AL13N | (which i'm working on) | 16:58 |
| AL13N | and it doesn't start at boot time | 16:58 |
| AL13N | or should i say services | 16:58 |
| AL13N | since i'm doing the multiconfig services | 16:58 |
| AL13N | so that if you have 4 openvpn configs, you have 4 systemd services you can start/stop independantly | 16:59 |
| mornfall | well, you'll need a gui to make it start with the system too, then | 16:59 |
| AL13N | heh | 16:59 |
| mornfall | do you also plan to tackle DNS? | 16:59 |
| AL13N | mornfall: i'm just doing the basic stuff for mer | 16:59 |
| AL13N | the openvpn config is SEP | 16:59 |
| AL13N | Someone Else's Problem | 17:00 |
| mornfall | so connman is not part of mer? | 17:00 |
| AL13N | yes | 17:00 |
| AL13N | connman is | 17:00 |
| AL13N | but, as i said,... SEP | 17:00 |
| AL13N | i just need the systemd services for myself | 17:00 |
| mornfall | I'm wondering how anyone uses a VPN without DNS. | 17:01 |
| pdanek1 | Did anyone had an issue of webpage in default web browser shaking when scrolling it down? | 17:01 |
| pdanek1 | After restart of browser, it disappeared | 17:01 |
| pdanek1 | Very strange bug. | 17:01 |
| AL13N | mornfall: VPN isn't always redirect-gateway | 17:01 |
| slate | pdanek1: seen that once | 17:01 |
| mornfall | AL13N: what's a redirect-gateway? | 17:02 |
| Stskeeps | pdanek1: yes, reproduced today | 17:02 |
| AL13N | mornfall: most often,it's just to log in at work or whatnot | 17:02 |
| mornfall | I mean, usually the VPN has a nameserver for stuff in the VPN. | 17:02 |
| pdanek1 | Stskeeps: how do you reproduce it? I didn't | 17:02 |
| Stskeeps | pdanek1: well, as in, it happened to me too | 17:02 |
| AL13N | mornfall: as i said, you can put this in the config | 17:02 |
| AL13N | but config is not my problem, i'm just copying it | 17:02 |
| mornfall | how? | 17:03 |
| AL13N | mornfall: by reading the openvpn documentation :-) | 17:03 |
| AL13N | (you can push DNS options) | 17:03 |
| mornfall | push, sure, but the client-side openvpn needs to do something about those | 17:03 |
| mornfall | normally it'd drop them into /etc/resolv.conf or somesuch | 17:04 |
| mornfall | but AFAIUI, that'd set you on a collision course with connman which has a DNS proxy in it and writes "nameserver 127.0.0.1" over resolv.conf | 17:06 |
| mornfall | the other "obvious" thing would be to talk to connman to add nameservers to its internal list, but that's something I didn't work out how to do from the sparse docs it has | 17:07 |
| mornfall | documentation mentions fallback DNS servers which don't seem to work at all, there's one mention of "global" nameservers but I didn't find how those work... there's a per-service way to set nameservers, but it's kinda destructive | 17:09 |
| mornfall | seems that if you manage to update the nameservers between the connection coming up and DHCP filling you up, connman throws away the DHCP ones... basically, the only way I could get it to work was to use a hardcoded nameserver for the Internet (4.2.2.2) | 17:10 |
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| mornfall | there's also connman-vpnd which will probably conflict with your openvpn service, but which can only do routed VPNs | 17:13 |
| mornfall | (for whatever reason, all my VPNs are bridged) | 17:13 |
| Stskeeps | mornfall: you sound like somebody who actually understands connman..? | 17:14 |
| mornfall | not really | 17:15 |
| mornfall | I did a little studying on it, and a little reverse engineering | 17:16 |
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| mornfall | you can install connman-test and check out /usr/lib/connman/test/ (list-services, get-services; there's some docs on connman.net, but not much) | 17:18 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 17:18 |
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| Venemo | how do I initiate a contacts sync on the jolla? | 17:21 |
| slate | activesync? | 17:21 |
| Venemo | no, google | 17:21 |
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| slate | got mailsync on? | 17:22 |
| slate | My contacts did not update if mailsync was off and contacts on | 17:22 |
| slate | with activesync though | 17:22 |
| Venemo | I got everything on, yes | 17:22 |
| pdanek1 | Stskeeps: Will be new update any time soon? | 17:23 |
| Venemo | pdanek1: yes | 17:23 |
| mornfall | Venemo: when is soon? :-) | 17:23 |
| Quu | https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time | 17:24 |
| Quu | about 2 years | 17:24 |
| Venemo | heh | 17:24 |
| slate | dont know if carddav is supported with gmail contacts sync? Sine google dropped activesync support. | 17:24 |
| slate | since* | 17:24 |
| mornfall | heh, I just got "system update available" ... too bad it's 1.0.2.5 again | 17:26 |
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| Venemo | AL13N: ping | 17:57 |
| Venemo | mornfall, pdanek1: 1 update / month is promised, so I expect one in january, and there's only 12 days left of january | 17:58 |
| Pnuu | 12 days could still be considered "almost half" ;-) | 17:59 |
| Venemo | :P | 17:59 |
| Pnuu | and I think it was a target that there'd be an update per month | 17:59 |
| suosaaski | if it is an average... how many updates have there been for the past 2 months or so that the device has been out? 4? | 18:00 |
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| Venemo | suosaaski: don't be so pessimistic, man | 18:02 |
| Venemo | I expect at least a bugfix release | 18:02 |
| suosaaski | Venemo: pessimistic? :) | 18:02 |
| Venemo | suosaaski: I hope it's not an average :P | 18:02 |
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| suosaaski | also perhaps not set in stone, as in some updates might take a bit longer and some shorter. | 18:03 |
| Venemo | I just want to have all the bugfixes they made since christmas | 18:05 |
| Venemo | nothing more | 18:05 |
| suosaaski | ...if there is any :P | 18:05 |
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| slate | suosaaski: mr. negative. | 18:06 |
| slate | ;) | 18:06 |
| suosaaski | :D | 18:07 |
| smokex | from christmas to new years they didn't work on anything guaranteed unless they were bored and decided to at home | 18:11 |
| smokex | but since then I bet they've been burning the midnight oil | 18:12 |
| slate | Is it Jolla-people or Myriad Group people who update the alien-dalvik side in sailfish? | 18:13 |
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| Aard | slate: define 'update' | 18:20 |
| Venemo | suosaaski: I actually saw a bunch in the Nemo github ;) | 18:20 |
| Venemo | hey Aard :) | 18:20 |
| Aard | hey Venemo | 18:20 |
| Venemo | Aard: interested in the beta release of the IRC client? | 18:21 |
| slate | Aard: develop | 18:21 |
| slate | Fix thing, add features etc. | 18:21 |
| Aard | slate: they do what we tell them to do | 18:21 |
| slate | Aard: okey, so basically its outsourced | 18:22 |
| Aard | yes | 18:23 |
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| AL13N | hmm, i'm not having any luck finding the screen sources for mer or are they someplace else? | 18:45 |
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| AL13N | Venemo: pong | 18:46 |
| Venemo | AL13N: now I can say with 100% sureness that I'm going to FOSDEM | 18:46 |
| AL13N | :-) | 18:46 |
| AL13N | pass by the Mageia stand/booth | 18:47 |
| AL13N | i'll likely be there | 18:47 |
| Venemo | AL13N: have you seen this? https://together.jolla.com/question/11303/are-you-going-to-fosdem-2014-irl-floss-meeting-in-belgium/ | 18:47 |
| AL13N | yes | 18:47 |
| Venemo | great :) | 18:47 |
| AL13N | i put a comment in there | 18:47 |
| faenil | he replied already | 18:47 |
| faenil | yeah :) | 18:47 |
| AL13N | i didn't think answers would be used, i felt comments would be better :-) | 18:47 |
| AL13N | ah well | 18:48 |
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| AL13N | i'm trying to find out how screen did the tmpfiles conversion for the openvpn package, but i don't see the screen in the mer git | 18:48 |
| Waitee | hmm | 18:49 |
| Waitee | first sim connection error | 18:49 |
| AL13N | ah, github nemo-pacakges | 18:50 |
| * AL13N sighs | 18:50 | |
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| mikhas | Venemo, AL13N, booked FOSDEM last week ;-) | 19:11 |
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| Venemo | mikhas: great :) | 19:12 |
| mikhas | but I have to confess … I did put my SIM card back into my N9 =/ | 19:12 |
| slate | mikhas: which features u get more with n9? | 19:13 |
| mikhas | ah, where to start | 19:14 |
| mikhas | let's just say that the N9 appears more polished? | 19:15 |
| slate | hw-wise? | 19:15 |
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| mikhas | you could also say that I simply got *too* used to it | 19:15 |
| mikhas | sw-wise | 19:15 |
| mornfall | I guess I'm lucky to never have owned N9 (jumped directly from N900). | 19:16 |
| clau | which is the most important feature that you don't have currently on Jolla? | 19:16 |
| slate | Harmattan is out from beta. ;) | 19:16 |
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| svuorela | mikhas: I have actually considered the same :/ - maybe just because I got too used to it. | 19:17 |
| mikhas | ok, for instance battery life | 19:18 |
| clau | tbh, N9 still attracts me too. | 19:18 |
| mikhas | my n9 after 2.5 years is still doing better than the jolla phone | 19:19 |
| clau | mikhas, have you disabled tohd.service on jolla? | 19:19 |
| mikhas | I read about it, I don't care | 19:19 |
| slate | I could go back to n900 if it had capacitive touch. | 19:19 |
| mikhas | I bought a product ;-) | 19:19 |
| clau | Battery-wise Jolla seems to deal much better with 3G. | 19:19 |
| pdanek1 | slate: I actually liked display on N900 more than on Jolla | 19:19 |
| pdanek1 | the resistive one | 19:19 |
| slate | ugh, looks and feels 90ish | 19:19 |
| clau | on N9 battery was really bad with 3G, so I had to switch to 2G/2.5G. | 19:20 |
| slate | Battery did not last a day for me with N9. Activesync on. | 19:20 |
| mikhas | but I have to apologize … I didn't want to start a silly discussion on things we don't like about the first Jolla device | 19:20 |
| clau | mikhas, after disabling tohd.service, the battery is better than N9 for my use cases. | 19:20 |
| slate | I like the ui, android support and the camera. | 19:21 |
| slate | On jolla. | 19:21 |
| slate | Lets turn this conversation. :) | 19:21 |
| Pnuu | I don't even need android support anymore | 19:21 |
| mikhas | slate, ;-) | 19:21 |
| mornfall | well, I guess the update is long time coming... | 19:21 |
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| mornfall | with the number of high-profile bugs... | 19:21 |
| clau | Well, beyond the small bugs which I'm sure will be fixed soon, my biggest issue is the security. And for this reason I can't say I would recommend it to a casual user. | 19:21 |
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| Venemo | clau: security of what? | 19:22 |
| clau | Sailfish, in general. | 19:22 |
| mornfall | clau: see #sailfishos an hour ago :-) | 19:23 |
| clau | is there a log? | 19:23 |
| clau | I was offline. | 19:23 |
| clau | or, maybe you can tell me about it in a few words? :) | 19:23 |
| mornfall | well, we are at the mercy of application developers | 19:24 |
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| mornfall | there's no security at all, and root escalation is trivial | 19:24 |
| clau | I do know, I was one of the people who brought it up | 19:25 |
| clau | anything that runs under user nemo can use pkcon to do whatever | 19:25 |
| clau | but this can be easily fixed; not sure what else it would break though | 19:26 |
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| clau | one bug in Warehouse app (from openrepos) resulted in someone uninstalling the Phone app by mistake. | 19:26 |
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| mornfall | classy | 19:27 |
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| clau | but, as I said, this is probably easy to fix | 19:27 |
| mornfall | but I don't see an easy fix actually | 19:27 |
| clau | you can limit access to pkcon by group, instead of user | 19:27 |
| mikhas | so perhaps AEGIS wasn't so bad? | 19:27 |
| mikhas | SCNR ;-) | 19:27 |
| * mikhas runs | 19:27 | |
| clau | aegis went a tad too far IMO | 19:27 |
| clau | it looked more like DRM than security for user | 19:28 |
| clau | besides this pkcon issue, I would like to see app isolation | 19:28 |
| clau | each app running under it's own user | 19:28 |
| mornfall | yeah, that's another thing and much more serious | 19:28 |
| mornfall | root escalation is a concern when someone would want to brick your device | 19:29 |
| clau | in fact, it's probably not that difficult either | 19:29 |
| clau | linux already offers this stuff | 19:29 |
| mikhas | clau, you mean proper sandboxing? | 19:29 |
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| mornfall | well, we are probably talking man-years of work even with selinux, apparmor, etc. around | 19:29 |
| mikhas | well systemd is already there, that's a start | 19:29 |
| mikhas | (to make it possible) | 19:29 |
| clau | nah | 19:29 |
| clau | it'd be nice to have more, but even running apps under different users would do it | 19:30 |
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| Custodian | as technology, aegis is great. bad was nokia attitude about creating limited origins ;) | 19:30 |
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| clau | and give access to resources based on groups | 19:30 |
| clau | in fact, if you look in /etc/group you will see there are plenty of groups already | 19:30 |
| clau | so probably someone already started work on that | 19:30 |
| slate | aegis is awesome for a normal user. | 19:30 |
| mikhas | Custodian, cant complain, the origin overrides worked fine for me =p | 19:31 |
| mikhas | slate, that's the point | 19:31 |
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| mikhas | do you design your product for experts or for consumer joe? | 19:31 |
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| Custodian | if you can create unrestructed origins, aegis also great for developer. | 19:31 |
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| mikhas | that's why on principle, where I see myself as a consumer joe, I won't kill a service to increase battery life. It's a hack. | 19:32 |
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| slate | How about tinfoil? "hehe" | 19:32 |
| mikhas | I specifically aim for the consumer joe experience, if that makes any sense | 19:32 |
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| clau | well, in all honesty... the only real reason why I would switch back to N9 is security. | 19:34 |
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| clau | and sadly this will take a lot of time to get fixed :( | 19:35 |
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| clau | Btw, in case you missed it: account passwords are stored in clear text. | 19:37 |
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| mornfall | clau: dunno, groups can get you somewhere, but how do you restrict network access? | 19:37 |
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| clau | that's the last problem to solve | 19:38 |
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| clau | if the flashlight doesn't have access to address book, emails, etc etc... having network access is not as dangerous anyway. | 19:38 |
| AL13N | i plan to do a small PoC with an app running under a different user, dbus service, policykit and probably a QML accessor that uses the DBUS but is similar to what devs are used to | 19:39 |
| clau | or at least as far as I am concerned. | 19:39 |
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| * javispedro doesn't get why people want more sandboxing on an embedded device than on a desktop | 19:39 | |
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| AL13N | javispedro: because of proprietary stuff | 19:39 |
| clau | javispedro, I don't want more. I already have a lot on desktop. | 19:39 |
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| AL13N | javispedro: on a phone you tend to install stuff that you usually wouldn't | 19:39 |
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| AL13N | javispedro: also, if this PoC works, there's actually more features wrt to inter-app functionality | 19:40 |
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| clau | I currently run software that uses internet in light vms (freebsd jail) | 19:40 |
| AL13N | while still keeping everything safe | 19:40 |
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| slate | My desktop doesn't do stuff without asking. | 19:40 |
| javispedro | clau: you can do the same in Sailfish then.. for now. When a official sandboxing policy is made, then who knows if you'd be able to override it. | 19:41 |
| AL13N | javispedro: also, even though the jolla QA team is great, they are bound to miss something (humans make errors after all) | 19:41 |
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| clau | javispedro, can I? | 19:41 |
| AL13N | javispedro: well, at least i'm gonna try, if it's doable, at least it serves as an example as how jolla can integrate it | 19:41 |
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| javispedro | clau: build kernel, use lxc, whatever you want. | 19:42 |
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| clau | javispedro, I propose Jolla does it then :) | 19:42 |
| javispedro | personally, I use way more programs from way more different authors on my desktop than on my "Jolla" | 19:42 |
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| mornfall | AL13N: there's basically no way humans can assess safety of binary blobs | 19:42 |
| javispedro | and... I have much more important data on my desktop than on my Jolla | 19:42 |
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| mornfall | AL13N: it's already too tricky with sources | 19:42 |
| javispedro | replace Jolla with any other mobile/embedded device I control | 19:43 |
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| clau | what OS are you using on desktop javispedro ? | 19:43 |
| AL13N | mornfall: well, there's the corporate structure, which is contracts, liability assesments, external audits, etc... | 19:43 |
| javispedro | clau: Gentoo atm. | 19:43 |
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| clau | so, it's a distro with tradition | 19:43 |
| AL13N | or more importantly, who is taking the blame | 19:43 |
| clau | and you compile software from source | 19:43 |
| mornfall | AL13N: right, but you can submit apps as a completely anonymous internet user | 19:43 |
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| clau | which, if I recall, you get safely. | 19:43 |
| AL13N | mornfall: of course | 19:43 |
| AL13N | this is why i want to have some sort of sandboxing | 19:44 |
| clau | how does it compare to installing closed source apps from shady sources (sometimes), over unsafe connections? | 19:44 |
| AL13N | mornfall: you're preaching to the choir | 19:44 |
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| clau | I recall Jolla was supposed to be the no-NSA device. | 19:45 |
| javispedro | clau: why do you assume that I don't have closed source programs? or that my connection is safe, or that the sources are even not shady? | 19:45 |
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| mornfall | AL13N: sorry :) I wish we'd hear from Jolla on the topic, though. | 19:45 |
| clau | well, currently NSA would have very little trouble in screwing my device entirely. | 19:45 |
| AL13N | i want something that is safe, customizable, extendable without any work, something that also allows more (if wanted) and is easy to used for devs | 19:45 |
| AL13N | mornfall: well, rainisto didn't want it | 19:45 |
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| AL13N | mornfall: of course, that's only one person | 19:45 |
| clau | a remote exploit in the browser, and I'm done. | 19:45 |
| clau | and browsers are notorious for how buggy they are. | 19:45 |
| javispedro | Qualcomm hardware will never be NSA-free. | 19:45 |
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| Pnuu | NSA might already be inside the qualcomm chip :-P | 19:46 |
| clau | awesome. | 19:46 |
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| AL13N | well, it does depend on the phone network | 19:46 |
| AL13N | but yeah | 19:46 |
| mornfall | Pnuu: it can do very little harm from inside the chip, SW-wise | 19:46 |
| clau | just don't go to US with Jolla :D | 19:46 |
| AL13N | what phone network doesn't NSA have access to | 19:46 |
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| clau | mornfall, if it has read access to memory... well, I'm sure you can figure it out :) | 19:46 |
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| mornfall | clau: the chip still has to work, and we are talking enormous amount of code that'd be needed to efficiently snoop on your data | 19:47 |
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| mornfall | compared to what can be spared in terms of silicon anyway | 19:48 |
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| clau | what if it leaks your encryption key? | 19:48 |
| clau | say, if you use pgp | 19:48 |
| mornfall | baseband is another matter, but you already sign on to towers so it's not much of a difference | 19:48 |
| clau | or openvpn | 19:48 |
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| mornfall | clau: you still need substantial infrastructure to get that key out, even if you knew when and where to look for it | 19:49 |
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| clau | I do not know the low level details, so I can't comment much about it | 19:49 |
| AL13N | mornfall: i'm willing to bet that they have substantial expertise and procedures in that area | 19:50 |
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| AL13N | mornfall: after all, it's not like they haven't done that before, right? | 19:50 |
| clau | but I think you underestimate what can be done | 19:50 |
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| mornfall | clau: you could do something if you could run the support software on the network side | 19:51 |
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| mornfall | clau: getting out a radio packet from the CPU might be just about doable | 19:51 |
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| AL13N | haha, between all the systemd services, i found a "ngfd.service": "New Girl Friend Daemon" ? | 19:51 |
| mornfall | but the towers would need to recognize that and cooperate | 19:51 |
| Venemo | AL13N: ngf = non-grafical feedback | 19:52 |
| javispedro | AL13N: vibrator stuff | 19:52 |
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| AL13N | lol | 19:52 |
| AL13N | it even fits :-) | 19:52 |
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| clau | hahahaha | 19:52 |
| Pnuu | :-D | 19:52 |
| mornfall | problem is you'd need substantial stego otherwise the first kid would figure out the radio packets | 19:52 |
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| AL13N | mornfall: if the attack is from the mobile data (which is logical since they control alot of telco's already), then you're screwed | 19:53 |
| mornfall | and so on... it's far from easy, even for a big adversary | 19:53 |
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| clau | there's another important thing though: if they care about you so much as to target you directly, you are probably in deep troubles anyway | 19:53 |
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| AL13N | clau: didn't you follow that thing where they need 3 hops from a known terrorist | 19:53 |
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| mornfall | right, add 6 degrees of separation on top | 19:54 |
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| AL13N | 1 such terrorist (including telcos as hops) would give > 3 million people | 19:54 |
| clau | :) | 19:54 |
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| AL13N | and there are > 30000 known terrorists | 19:54 |
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| AL13N | (and this is only about US citizens, because the rest is free play anyway, they don't count) | 19:54 |
| mornfall | makes you wonder if they still count Nelson Mandela for the purpose of NSA spying :-) | 19:55 |
| AL13N | probably | 19:55 |
| Yaniel | I don't think they need to :D | 19:55 |
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| AL13N | they didn't say that the hops need to be alive | 19:55 |
| clau | anyway, I think the discussion about security went to extremes... NSA is not your only problem. | 19:55 |
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| mornfall | AL13N: anyway, what'd you mean "attack from mobile data"? | 19:56 |
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| mornfall | clau: it's not even your biggest problem :) | 19:56 |
| Stskeeps | ndvl: fix your connection? | 19:56 |
| AL13N | mornfall: well, if you're using your phone with a sim card, the phone company has quite some access to your device | 19:56 |
| clau | mornfall, as I stated before, there is just one important thing that needs to be done: isolate native apps. | 19:56 |
| mornfall | AL13N: you can probably assume that baseband will happily tell them all it knows | 19:57 |
| clau | also, the pkcon craziness must be fixed soon, obviously. :) | 19:57 |
| AL13N | but yes, otherwise one app just gets all the facebook data and runs off with it | 19:57 |
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| Pnuu | I'm safe from fb-attacks, yay | 19:57 |
| * AL13N too | 19:57 | |
| mornfall | AL13N: you obviously don't tell it what you don't have to, and everything you push out to network is application-level encrypted | 19:57 |
| AL13N | mornfall: except that all apps run as the same user and therefor can check your encryption keys | 19:58 |
| AL13N | or whatnot | 19:58 |
| mornfall | AL13N: sure, that's an entirely different problem though :-) | 19:58 |
| mornfall | *that* can be fixed | 19:58 |
| mornfall | at least in theory | 19:58 |
| AL13N | yes, but this is why we want sandboxing in apps | 19:59 |
| mornfall | among other things, yes | 19:59 |
| AL13N | to isolate apps from eachother and from the system (eg: your camera) | 19:59 |
| mornfall | I think we reversed, now you preach to the choir ;-) | 19:59 |
| AL13N | yes | 19:59 |
| AL13N | tbh: i'm pretty sure we all preaching to the choir | 20:00 |
| AL13N | the only people who don't agree are the ones not speaking | 20:00 |
| mornfall | now where is the damned choir :D | 20:00 |
| AL13N | or rainisto | 20:00 |
| javispedro | I am most definitely not convinced sandboxing is a requirement. | 20:00 |
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| clau | it's ok, we'll ask for a "disable" function for you. :D | 20:00 |
| AL13N | if you don't, that is your prerogative, but then you likely don't care about privacy at all | 20:01 |
| javispedro | the inconvenience is huge, and I don't see many benefits. | 20:01 |
| AL13N | tbh: i'm perfectly fine if they want default all open | 20:01 |
| clau | what inconvenience? | 20:01 |
| mornfall | javispedro: well, it's only a requirement as far as you want to use your device for anything remotely privacy-sensitive | 20:01 |
| clau | it can be done sanely, you know. | 20:01 |
| AL13N | javispedro: that's just it, we're talking about technical stuff that will not have any inconvenience | 20:01 |
| javispedro | mornfall: and I say having no sandbox is a requirement for using the device for anything remotely related to work. | 20:02 |
| javispedro | real work. the one I do on my desktop. | 20:02 |
| clau | define "real work" | 20:02 |
| AL13N | mornfall: using a banking app or online banking or even buying something online, or accounts (for identity theft or even spam) is privacy-sensitive enough | 20:02 |
| AL13N | err i meant that for javispedro | 20:03 |
| javispedro | clau: many small programs interacting | 20:03 |
| mornfall | AL13N: of course, but if you don't want to do anything like that, it's OK to not have sandboxing | 20:03 |
| sremes | people don't run sandboxed software on their desktops, and still probably have more privacy-sensitive data there | 20:03 |
| AL13N | even the jolla registered account is dangerous | 20:03 |
| AL13N | they could order another jolla in your name | 20:03 |
| clau | sremes, I do! | 20:03 |
| mornfall | javispedro: it's a linux box, you can create a user for that kind of stuff | 20:04 |
| mornfall | javispedro: you don't expect to install all those small programs that interact from the store, do you? | 20:04 |
| sremes | clau: sure, some people do :) | 20:04 |
| javispedro | mornfall: well, that is an option. otherwise the store is as alien to me as the android store | 20:04 |
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| AL13N | on desktops, people have tomoyo and selinux (and policykit) and everything runs under a different user (at least in linux) | 20:05 |
| javispedro | AL13N: hardly. | 20:05 |
| javispedro | well, except for clau. | 20:05 |
| clau | :D | 20:05 |
| mornfall | sremes: well, most people that don't have a sanbox and install random crapware contribute mightily to the botnets of the world | 20:05 |
| clau | well, I'm a tad sad Jolla is not based on freebsd :) | 20:05 |
| clau | freebsd jails are damn powerful | 20:06 |
| mornfall | sremes: where you unfortunately have to assume that everything in a smartphone store is crapware | 20:06 |
| mornfall | sremes: as far as security is concerned anyway | 20:06 |
| AL13N | clau: did you read about the systemd chroots ? | 20:06 |
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| javispedro | clau: well, systemd/kitchensinkd is not portable to freebsd! | 20:06 |
| AL13N | clau: supposedly they are more secure than regular chroots | 20:06 |
| clau | AL13N, read about jails | 20:06 |
| * javispedro sighs. | 20:06 | |
| clau | not that it would matter for Jolla though | 20:06 |
| mornfall | AL13N: lxc anyone? | 20:06 |
| javispedro | the most equivalent thing to jails is lxc | 20:06 |
| mornfall | AL13N: bsd chroots are so overrated | 20:07 |
| mornfall | bsd jails anyway | 20:07 |
| clau | mornfall, explain? | 20:07 |
| AL13N | iiuc, systemd chroots also had network seperation | 20:07 |
| javispedro | lxc is still not entirely completed yet | 20:07 |
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| javispedro | you'd be better suited using openvz or similar .. | 20:07 |
| javispedro | (obviously the cascade of attention-deficit teenagers issue has left openvz without a clear upgrade path) | 20:09 |
| mornfall | javispedro: the userspace maybe, the kernel side is not really lxc, it just uses a bunch of stuff that's already in the kernel | 20:09 |
| javispedro | mornfall: that's precisely the problem, there's a bunch of stuff in the kernel that does not enforce the separation | 20:10 |
| sremes | mornfall: I mostly agree, but I'm just wondering, why the same security measures than on smartphones (android etc.) are not more widely applied then to desktops, since the issues are the same as people do install crapware regardless the platform | 20:10 |
| javispedro | mornfall: I think that being able to shutdown the system from a lxc uid 0 was fixed already, but then there was being able to change the hotplug handler and other issues | 20:11 |
| mornfall | javispedro: yeah, well :-) that shutdown thing is kinda embarassing | 20:11 |
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| Stskeeps | let's qemu kvm everything | 20:12 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:12 |
| mornfall | javispedro: but we aren't really concerned about container's uid0 here | 20:12 |
| javispedro | sremes: to put it simple, try envisioning using the android sandbox policy in your desktop. | 20:12 |
| mornfall | javispedro: as long as you don't have local root exploits in the kernel the app won't be able to use that | 20:12 |
| javispedro | basically it only works when you're talking about fart apps. | 20:12 |
| clau | most users only use fart apps on desktops. | 20:12 |
| mornfall | clau: they deserve windows 8 :-) | 20:13 |
| javispedro | exactly. | 20:13 |
| javispedro | people complain about windows 8 a lot, | 20:13 |
| javispedro | but that's what it is. | 20:13 |
| javispedro | a fscking giant sandbox. | 20:13 |
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| clau | by fscking, you mean chkdsk-ing, right? | 20:14 |
| clau | :) | 20:14 |
| javispedro | clau: obviously, what else could it be? ;P | 20:14 |
| kor | scandisking. | 20:14 |
| javispedro | (actually it is called chkdsk-ing on nt systems) | 20:14 |
| javispedro | (blame VMS) | 20:15 |
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| Quu | (blame canada) | 20:16 |
| Stskeeps | (blame aard) | 20:16 |
| AL13N | anyone know how to "show" whitespace differences with diff? | 20:17 |
| attah | -b ? | 20:18 |
| attah | and/or -B | 20:18 |
| clau | isn't that happening by default? | 20:18 |
| attah | http://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/CGI/man-cgi?diff | 20:18 |
| mornfall | AL13N: you could do a normal diff, -w diff and then diff the diffs | 20:18 |
| clau | -b and -B are for ignoring | 20:18 |
| javispedro | I also suggest colordiff or similar as that might be configured to highlight whitespace changes | 20:18 |
| clau | or, if the context allows it: vimdiff | 20:19 |
| javispedro | (like git diff does, but I don't remember what it uses as backend) | 20:19 |
| AL13N | hmm | 20:19 |
| attah | oh.. sorry, i misread you.. so it's not on by default? :O | 20:19 |
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| AL13N | of course | 20:19 |
| AL13N | vimdiff | 20:19 |
| clau | \o/ | 20:19 |
| AL13N | i should've thought about it | 20:19 |
| AL13N | yes, you win | 20:20 |
| clau | hehehehe | 20:20 |
| AL13N | clau: you get ++ karma | 20:20 |
| AL13N | ok? | 20:20 |
| clau | like, real lilfe karma? | 20:21 |
| clau | ffs... my "l" is going nuts. | 20:21 |
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| javispedro | aand the latest webkit-gtk build was only 3hours. I need to upgrade my Gentoo-building cluster. | 20:24 |
| clau | on the security subject: http://qubes-os.org/trac | 20:24 |
| clau | isn't there a binary package for webkit-gtk no gentoo? I recall they started to offer bins for big packages, like firefox, openoffice etc | 20:25 |
| javispedro | not yet for webkit-gtk. | 20:25 |
| clau | *on | 20:25 |
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| javispedro | soo... I fear whatever is going to get out of the sailfish "security" bulldozer. | 20:27 |
| javispedro | whatever it is, if you're thinking of doing weird things like removing pre/postscripts on RPMs, consider why you're using RPMs in the first place. | 20:27 |
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| javispedro | you could just distribute programs in .zip packages, and give them an specific extension, I don't know, .apk | 20:28 |
| javispedro | then use secure languages, like this new-fangled java | 20:28 |
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| clau | javispedro, you don't need all that. | 20:29 |
| javispedro | maybe use some simple but pervasive IPC system, and call it openbinder... | 20:29 |
| clau | users & groups. | 20:29 |
| clau | won't solve everything, but will solve lots of problems. | 20:30 |
| javispedro | well, that will kill direct reading from the contacts database for example, | 20:30 |
| javispedro | and know you need to IPC reads and writes to/from it. | 20:30 |
| clau | why? | 20:30 |
| clau | make it group readable | 20:30 |
| clau | and put the users you need in that particular group | 20:31 |
| clau | or, offer it over... uhm, unix socket? | 20:31 |
| AL13N | isn't there that thing where you can allow extra rights? | 20:31 |
| clau | come on, linux offers this kind of stuff for ages. | 20:31 |
| AL13N | (outside of user/groups) | 20:31 |
| clau | and it would be a very good starting point for proper security. | 20:31 |
| javispedro | clau: a socket is precisely the extra complexity that I'd prefer to avoid, | 20:32 |
| javispedro | but I'm tempted by the groups idea | 20:32 |
| clau | extra for who? | 20:32 |
| javispedro | (though Android also does that...) | 20:32 |
| clau | you can offer APIs | 20:32 |
| AL13N | unix domain sockets is complex? | 20:32 |
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| javispedro | yes. | 20:32 |
| AL13N | that's the first time i heard that :-) | 20:32 |
| clau | the casual developer doesn't need to have an idea about the mechanisms behind it | 20:32 |
| clau | and the user won't care at all anyway. | 20:32 |
| AL13N | exactly | 20:32 |
| clau | and there's a beauty to it... let's face it :) | 20:33 |
| javispedro | they will care when their 30000 messages database loaded instantenously before, and doesn't now. | 20:33 |
| clau | it doesn't have to be a socket, but it would definitely be a better choice than giving access directly to a file. | 20:34 |
| AL13N | DBUS | 20:34 |
| * AL13N hides | 20:34 | |
| clau | hahahah | 20:34 |
| javispedro | clau: I admit 'design beauty' has a lot to do with this. The problem is, I tend to see beauty in simplicity. | 20:34 |
| clau | there was a saying about how simple things should be. | 20:35 |
| AL13N | KISS | 20:35 |
| clau | but let me make an analogy with cars :P | 20:35 |
| clau | would you rather drive without seatbelts, airbags, ABS, ESP etc ? | 20:35 |
| AL13N | (doorlocks) | 20:36 |
| clau | I mean, the cars used to be much simpler, and unfortunately deadlier | 20:36 |
| javispedro | I dislike car analogies, but note how neither really changes the way you drive. | 20:36 |
| clau | yes | 20:37 |
| clau | that's what we propose for sailfish :) | 20:37 |
| clau | something that doesn't change the way you use the phone. | 20:37 |
| javispedro | in this case, this is a pervasive change. | 20:37 |
| clau | ok, we'll talk about it again after your flashlight will steal your accounts details from the phone :). | 20:38 |
| javispedro | it is a change of focus from a maemo-like "security ignorant" but desktop-like platform towards something resembling Android and "fart apps" models. | 20:38 |
| clau | if Jolla wants to become mainstream... there's no other way anyway. | 20:39 |
| javispedro | clau: technically that could happen right now on my Gentoo system. | 20:39 |
| clau | while the trust model may work for us, here, it will be very very bad when there will be tons of closed source apps in the store. | 20:39 |
| clau | do you use software that comes in binary format from another source than gentoo? | 20:39 |
| AL13N | what's that command that rechecks for new systemd unit files? | 20:40 |
| javispedro | clau: I even use Steam, from time to time. | 20:40 |
| clau | ok, I give up then :) | 20:40 |
| javispedro | =) | 20:40 |
| javispedro | I see the need for certain sandboxing, e.g. a keyring. | 20:41 |
| AL13N | but therein lies the problem | 20:41 |
| AL13N | the minute you use it, all apps have access to it | 20:41 |
| javispedro | well, keyrings in the desktop "kind of hope" that if any password in it is important, you'll set it up to prompt for a password the moment you need it, and then clear it from memory afterwards. | 20:42 |
| javispedro | they also assume that secure prompts exist in X11, without keyboard monitors and so on. | 20:43 |
| clau | hope-based security ? :D | 20:43 |
| AL13N | hahaha | 20:43 |
| javispedro | another example | 20:44 |
| AL13N | then again, someone i will not specify but is into security mails his evernote stuff (and it contains passwords) | 20:44 |
| * AL13N facepalms | 20:44 | |
| javispedro | everyone knows how easy it is to both capture and fake keypresses in X11 (and Windows btw) | 20:44 |
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| clau | /o\ | 20:44 |
| javispedro | obviously this make any kind of keyring "hope-based security" at least on these platforms. | 20:44 |
| javispedro | *this makes | 20:44 |
| javispedro | yet allowing capturing and faking keypresses allows gazillions of usecases that I wouldn't want to lose. | 20:45 |
| clau | yes, but all the other security methods are there to protect you from someone doing just that. | 20:45 |
| clau | I grant you that though, X11 sucks. | 20:45 |
| Yaniel | shocking news :D | 20:45 |
| Stskeeps | +1 | 20:46 |
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| clau | hehehe | 20:46 |
| javispedro | X11 sucks in its implementation. e.g. I am right now trying to figure out how to exceed the weird 160bytes payload limit in XEvents. But I don't think the ideas suck. | 20:46 |
| Stskeeps | wayland sucks in other ways | 20:46 |
| Yaniel | and mir probably in yet others | 20:47 |
| javispedro | *160 bits, sorry. | 20:47 |
| Yaniel | if there ever is a working implementation of that | 20:47 |
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| * clau is looking forward to a text based phone interface. | 20:47 | |
| Aard | let's do a new display protocol iplementing only the sucking parts from x11, wayland and mir :) | 20:47 |
| clau | the sucking parts? :D | 20:48 |
| javispedro | basically I suspect that's what Wayland will become. | 20:48 |
| javispedro | an amalgamation of everything | 20:48 |
| Aard | clau: I believe in causing pain :) | 20:48 |
| clau | hahaha | 20:48 |
| artemma | Anybody into making Jolla app store unique? :) https://together.jolla.com/question/17240/micro-payment-subscriptions-including-try-before-you-buy-for-app-store/ | 20:49 |
| AL13N | well, at the very least pain is truth | 20:49 |
| * artemma always wanted to be paid by app *usage* - brings so much motivation for permanent improvement | 20:49 | |
| AL13N | i guess there's a reason why noone has done this before | 20:50 |
| Aard | it's a privacy issue | 20:50 |
| artemma | AL13N: I wonder the same often | 20:50 |
| AL13N | Aard: i meant on the selling side | 20:50 |
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| artemma | I would guess that Apple never cared about app subscriptions (they make real money on hardware after all) and then nobody had a "golden standard" to copy from :) | 20:51 |
| AL13N | maybe it's the users don't like to think about using something | 20:52 |
| AL13N | or at least that's how the sellers thing | 20:52 |
| AL13N | *think | 20:52 |
| javispedro | I think that half of fart app consumers actually "buy-to-try" | 20:52 |
| javispedro | after all, the average active time for a fart app is just a few minutes | 20:53 |
| artemma | Possibly, I hope to have a bit of discussion about it for better understanding. Not sure if it fits Together format much though as "just discussions" seem to be not very welcome there | 20:53 |
| AL13N | and never use again | 20:53 |
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| javispedro | any trial would be longer than that. | 20:53 |
| * artemma sigh, some people care too much about karmas and points | 20:53 | |
| AL13N | but, paid by usage is ads | 20:53 |
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| artemma | well, I do not like to be paid by apps. And to pay by apps to | 20:53 |
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| AL13N | and the users neither, but it's the simplest solution for sellers | 20:54 |
| Quu | awaynicks are bad for your health | 20:54 |
| artemma | so searching for alternative models to be paid by app usage. Micro-pament oriented subscription is one such idea, would love to see better proposals | 20:54 |
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| artemma | I don't think ads really work for developers too, except for few maybe | 20:55 |
| AL13N | artemma: i wish you luck with your endeavour, even though you're trying to make the world a better place, i'm assuming you'll not get any credit for that | 20:55 |
| artemma | there's reason why Facebook does native mobile ads instead of "standard" in-app banners | 20:55 |
| krnlyng | hi, i've ordered my jolla on the 1.1.2014, i know it hasn't been 3 weeks yet but i am really eager, want to hack :), can i expect it to arrive this week :)? | 20:56 |
| AL13N | no | 20:56 |
| artemma | AL13N: it's alright, if it flies I will be able to get enough credit to massage my ego. I'll be happy if I'll be able to be paid by my app usage :) | 20:56 |
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| AL13N | krnlyng: but then again, i got mine before 3 weeks, even though they said 3/4 weeks | 20:56 |
| AL13N | artemma: btw: were you the one with the hello world app? | 20:57 |
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| artemma | AL13N: yep | 20:58 |
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| attah | krnlyng: What's the status in the store? Not shipped yet? And when exactly did you order? | 20:58 |
| AL13N | artemma: i put in a pull-request | 20:58 |
| AL13N | just saying | 20:58 |
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| artemma | AL13N: getting through mail is in my todo list two slots from what I am currently doing :) | 20:58 |
| artemma | thanks for the proposal | 20:58 |
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| krnlyng | attah: on the 1.1 :), it says shipped in the store | 20:58 |
| attah | krnlyng: and fedex tracking? | 21:00 |
| krnlyng | attah: where do i find that :D? | 21:00 |
| attah | Well. if you got a confirmation email for the shipment, that's where it'll be | 21:01 |
| attah | Unless they still send out shipping numbers in scientific notation.. lol | 21:02 |
| * Stskeeps cringes | 21:02 | |
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| attah | Stskeeps: funny part is.. it wouldn't have been an issue if it hadn't been that the last digits were rounded off ^^ | 21:03 |
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| attah | krnlyng: the other option is to track it "by reference" and then give the shipment number which can be found both in said email and the store.. and you'll also have to provide country+zip | 21:07 |
| AL13N | artemma: iinm, there were 2 other pull-requests already | 21:07 |
| krnlyng | hmm fedex says thursday :'( toooo long :) | 21:13 |
| slate | isnt that next week? | 21:15 |
| slate | ;) | 21:15 |
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| mikhas | slate, I like the contacts view | 21:16 |
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| slate | mikhas: in N9? ;) | 21:16 |
| mikhas | no in Jolla | 21:16 |
| mikhas | does not quite work for > 200 contacts but still | 21:16 |
| slate | Same, took a while to get used to but works good. | 21:16 |
| mikhas | (dynamic indexing works better than fixed index, for unbound sets) | 21:17 |
| * artemma doesn't like that he is forced to use Jolla in English just because most of my contacts use Latin letters. Otherwise they are all grouped in a huge "#' section | 21:17 | |
| slate | One thing I miss is spotlight-style search device-wide | 21:17 |
| javispedro | I don't understand what was the role of smartsearchd on N9 | 21:18 |
| artemma | slate: should be doable by 3rd parties | 21:18 |
| javispedro | presumably, simply querying tracker would have been enough.. | 21:19 |
| slate | artemma: yeh, everything is readable? :P | 21:19 |
| * artemma just released spotlight style search for just apps to the harbour yesterday. Adding contacts, media search, etc is just a question of open APIs, seems to be doable | 21:19 | |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: unicorns and magic | 21:19 |
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| javispedro | and quite hungry unicorns they were | 21:20 |
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| artemma | Stskeeps, "blackjack and sluts" is the modern version :) | 21:20 |
| Quu | NSFW-unicorn: http://termite.apcdn.com/full/112356.jpg | 21:21 |
| slate | It sunday, no work. | 21:22 |
| Hartzi | but that's friday stuff | 21:22 |
| javispedro | I'm not clicking, last time I clicked on a random NSFW link on IRC ..... need more bleach. | 21:22 |
| Quu | its just little unicorn | 21:22 |
| Waitee | Quu: haha | 21:22 |
| Waitee | :D | 21:23 |
| slate | Friday stuff would have 2 dicks in it. | 21:23 |
| pdanek1 | Quu: umm, not sure if such stuff can be posted here | 21:26 |
| Quu | close your eyes and pretend like nothing happened | 21:27 |
| Quu | its not like you need to click every NSFW link | 21:27 |
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| pdanek1 | Quu: ah actually, I didn't know what NSFW means :) | 21:30 |
| pdanek1 | so it's fine | 21:30 |
| pdanek1 | Because I exactly thought of the situation of opening it in office :) | 21:30 |
| Waitee | well this is a public channel for developing and discussing jolla | 21:30 |
| Waitee | nsfw links dont belong here imo | 21:30 |
| pdanek1 | true | 21:30 |
| Quu | meh, its internet | 21:31 |
| Waitee | Quu: yes | 21:31 |
| pdanek1 | Internet is for porn, right | 21:31 |
| Quu | if you get offended by something like that, internet is not for you | 21:31 |
| attah | don't forget conspiracy theories.. | 21:31 |
| Waitee | Quu: pretty agressive statement imo | 21:32 |
| javispedro | yes, NSFW links have to be inserted from time to time to keep the NSA at bay | 21:32 |
| petantik | It might not be offensive, but it's probably not the proper place for it either. | 21:32 |
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| petantik | At least it was tagged NSFW | 21:33 |
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| javispedro | what? I need to rebuild firefox too? | 21:41 |
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| AL13N | i just noticed something very weird | 21:58 |
| DrainBamaged | Is it because I am here? :o | 21:58 |
| AL13N | Stskeeps: remember when i told you about that weird dialer thing? where +32NNNNNNNNN was replaced by +32c1899NNNNNNNNN ? | 21:59 |
| AL13N | CGroup: name=systemd:/user/nemo/c1/systemd-899/voicecall-manager.service | 21:59 |
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| AL13N | i just found out this | 22:00 |
| AL13N | no idea if it's related or not... but damn that's odd | 22:00 |
| javispedro | why? | 22:00 |
| AL13N | c1 and 899 | 22:00 |
| javispedro | ah, you mean systemd-[\d]* matches | 22:00 |
| AL13N | ye | 22:01 |
| javispedro | well, I assume that's a pid, so, reboot | 22:01 |
| javispedro | and you can try again | 22:01 |
| AL13N | the phone service provider shows in call logs +32c1899NNNNNNNNN where journalctl shows +32NNNNNNNNN in logs, but i cannot dial | 22:01 |
| AL13N | (or at least i cannot connect) | 22:02 |
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| AL13N | yes, 899 is the "systemd --user" process | 22:03 |
| javispedro | I mean that after rebooting, the PID'll change | 22:03 |
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| AL13N | probably | 22:03 |
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| javispedro | so if make a call and it still matches, you'll have two data poinst | 22:04 |
| javispedro | *points | 22:04 |
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| AL13N | i found this while i was testing my openvpn .service file | 22:04 |
| AL13N | javispedro: yes, i understand | 22:04 |
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| AL13N | damn, how i can add a dns server from cli into connman ? | 22:25 |
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| AL13N | no cmc or connmancli | 22:26 |
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| artemma | Stskeeps: sent you crash logs and comments | 22:50 |
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| pahartik | AL13N: "/usr/lib/connman/test/set-nameservers" | 23:13 |
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| AL13N | aha, interesting | 23:14 |
| AL13N | Stskeeps: full log seems interesting http://pastebin.com/qhJ8emXx (look at the "unknown SS message" thing?) | 23:17 |
| AL13N | phone webpage says: "20/01/2014 00:13:27 Uit Premium SMS 3XXX 32c4899496560594 00:00:00 0,00" | 23:19 |
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| Aard | AL13N: what did you break? :) | 23:22 |
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| AL13N | Aard: i put in a SIM | 23:23 |
| AL13N | i hadn't before | 23:23 |
| AL13N | it's a SIM without data plan | 23:23 |
| Aard | and what happened? | 23:23 |
| AL13N | but for some reason, i can't be called/sms'd, and cannot call/sms | 23:23 |
| Aard | interesting | 23:23 |
| AL13N | the phone provider seems to insert "c4899" between country code and actual number | 23:23 |
| AL13N | or the phone does it, i donno | 23:24 |
| AL13N | this reminds me of the chinese curse to have an "interesting" life :-) | 23:24 |
| Aard | building a phone definitely let's you see lot's of "interesting" things | 23:25 |
| AL13N | hehe | 23:25 |
| AL13N | Aard: things is, i don't really know how to debug this further, or if this is provider issue, or phone issue | 23:26 |
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| AL13N | on the one end, it does seem to get in the logs | 23:26 |
| AL13N | (of the provider) | 23:26 |
| AL13N | but otoh, the number doesn't really display correctly, doesn't it... | 23:26 |
| Aard | alterego: maybe you want to look at that? :) | 23:26 |
| AL13N | and my work-phone android can't call/SMS it, but i don't see those in the history of the phone provider, so... | 23:27 |
| AL13N | gah, since i have a Jolla, i'm hating android | 23:27 |
| AL13N | i'm double-tapping and such | 23:27 |
| lpotter | AL13N: that just horrible | 23:27 |
| Aard | AL13N: I hated android before I had a jolla. I'm quite happy that I nowadays can use some interesting android apps without suffering android as such | 23:28 |
| AL13N | myeah, i see the point | 23:28 |
| AL13N | well, i guess when alterego wakes up tomorrow he'll have some interesting IRC logs | 23:29 |
| AL13N | Aard: would it be possible to send me a test SMS/test call? | 23:29 |
| Aard | sure | 23:29 |
| Aard | number? | 23:29 |
| AL13N | just to see if i see this in the phone provider logs, or if this is my android crapping out | 23:29 |
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| jusics | AL13N: just thinking, maybe you have to actually receive the sms before it shows up in provider logs? | 23:32 |
| AL13N | jusics: that's possible | 23:32 |
| AL13N | don't see anything in the phone provider logs... maybe the provider locked me out... | 23:32 |
| AL13N | jusics: the question is why don't i, (nor do i see anything on the phone journal) | 23:33 |
| AL13N | the site said my sim is "active" | 23:33 |
| AL13N | grr | 23:33 |
| jusics | try putting that sim in another phone for a while? | 23:33 |
| jusics | to see if it can clear the sms queue | 23:34 |
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| AL13N | jusics: heh, it doesn't fit anymore in another phone :-) | 23:35 |
| jusics | ok :) | 23:35 |
| AL13N | btw: can anyone look at my service settings and see if i'm not doing anything illogical? http://imagebin.org/287584 | 23:35 |
| Aard | AL13N: you don't have enough phones on your desk :p | 23:35 |
| AL13N | heh | 23:36 |
| AL13N | Aard: not planning to | 23:36 |
| AL13N | i already had 3 phones... people were giving me looks | 23:36 |
| * artemma counted his phones ones, got seven. By now a couple of them are broken though, mostly because of home made micro-SIM adapters, sigh | 23:37 | |
| * Aard recently upgraded the permanently mounted charger ports in his desk to 8, so I don't need to plug in additional chargers that often | 23:37 | |
| AL13N | lol | 23:38 |
| AL13N | btw: i don't need GPRS to actually make a call, right? | 23:39 |
| AL13N | (or SMS) | 23:39 |
| Aard | no | 23:39 |
| jusics | you don't need it, gprs is just for data conns | 23:40 |
| AL13N | that's what i thought | 23:41 |
| AL13N | i disabled all MSS, GPRS stuff | 23:41 |
| * lpotter doesn't count his phones anymore | 23:42 | |
| petantik | run out of fingers? | 23:43 |
| petantik | I joke. | 23:43 |
| AL13N | i went to this shop to rescue my old nokia contacts on phone memory | 23:43 |
| * Aard neither, I think I nowadays have more phones here than computers, but I don't know exactly how many computers I have | 23:43 | |
| AL13N | and i went with the owner in the back | 23:43 |
| AL13N | gods the number of phones was huges | 23:44 |
| AL13N | musta been hundreds | 23:44 |
| AL13N | the guy even had almost the same model as my old phone | 23:44 |
| artemma | Aard: we need to rebrand phones as computers some time soon anyway | 23:45 |
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| artemma | heh, after the recent Intel announcements soon we'll rebrand running shoes into computers that run | 23:45 |
| AL13N | oh gods a few days i don't look at my emails and already 380 emails in sailfishos-devel | 23:46 |
| * artemma nearly stopped reading sailsihos-devel list after switching to Jolla phone. GMail conveniently put all mails into sub-inbox, with Jolla I am forced to archive to Folder and.. no easy favorite folders neither in Jolla nor in web gmail | 23:47 | |
| AL13N | Aard: http://www.bash.org/?5273 | 23:47 |
| Aard | AL13N: happened to me as well in my old apartment. which was a 16sqm one room apartment. | 23:47 |
| AL13N | haha | 23:48 |
| AL13N | but that one's a classic | 23:48 |
| * artemma remembers a rumor from a friend. A mail server stopped working and nobody remembered where it was. They traced cables to.. a brick wall | 23:48 | |
| Aard | it was pretty annoying, it just had a 16 ampere fuse which I permanently blew | 23:48 |
| Aard | so I had to shut down computers before using the microwave oven, and similar things | 23:49 |
| AL13N | the other day, someone asked my why Jolla was so great... i talked about possibilities and vim was on it and etc... and then he asked, but can you call with it... and i said "well no, i don't have a SIM in it yet" :-) | 23:49 |
| artemma | some years ago construction workers replaced a small room door with a brick wall, poor linux webserver stayed inside and was up for few years more until ran out of disk space | 23:49 |
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| AL13N | artemma: security! | 23:49 |
| Morpog_Jolla | i just found out why qHD resolution. So jolla can use pixel doubling in a future device with full hd resolution | 23:50 |
| Aard | artemma: about 10 years back when I was on vacation I received a call from a customer if I had any clue where one server. they made the mistake of spanning an unmanaged network over 4 datacentres in different buildings, and when they tried to find it for a hardware upgrade they had not even a remote clue which building it was in | 23:50 |
| artemma | Morpog_Jolla: why is that related? | 23:50 |
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| artemma | Aard: lol | 23:51 |
| Morpog_Jolla | related to what? | 23:51 |
| Morpog_Jolla | it just flashed through my head | 23:52 |
| Morpog_Jolla | Qt already dupports pixel doubling | 23:52 |
| artemma | why qHD matters? | 23:52 |
| Morpog_Jolla | same approach as apple used | 23:52 |
| Aard | artemma: was back in frankurt, we sometimes moved servers between buildings ourselves (it's just faster if you quickly get your hands dirty yourself). frankfurt city = using cars is a bit silly. so we borrowed the sack barrow from the mail department, and stacked 10 units worth of compaq servers, and some disk arrays on it, and went for a walk. you get pretty amusing reactions when you decide on the way to go for a lunch break with all that ... | 23:53 |
| Aard | ... stuff | 23:53 |
| AL13N | a few weeks ago, we had a client that had some "odd issue" that looked suspiciously like layer 2 loops... unfortunately, there's various bridges, wifi, switches, fibre lines, vpn boxes with vlan passthrough, etc... all layer2 over dozen locations | 23:53 |
| Morpog_Jolla | artemma: 960 * 2 = 1920, 540 * 2 = 1080 | 23:53 |
| AL13N | dude | 23:54 |
| AL13N | that's why it's qHD | 23:54 |
| Eztran | Morpog_Jolla: well, yeah. quarter HD. | 23:54 |
| artemma | so you mean that quarter of HD scales well to full HD. Well, indeed | 23:54 |
| AL13N | 1/4 in 2 dimensions means halving in each dimension... | 23:54 |
| Morpog_Jolla | hege yeah, but they can just double all graphics to support it | 23:55 |
| artemma | Morpog_Jolla: okay, I just thought there's some deeper message :) | 23:55 |
| Morpog_Jolla | well, next device should use 1920*1080 | 23:55 |
| AL13N | or qHD | 23:55 |
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| artemma | Morpog_Jolla: okay, I just thought there's some deeper message :) | 23:56 |
| Morpog_Jolla | noooo :D | 23:56 |
| artemma | sorry for double message | 23:56 |
| AL13N | artemma: oh, i just thought you meant to reinforce your opinion | 23:56 |
| AL13N | yanno, some kind of deeper message :-) ? | 23:56 |
| * artemma 's opinions are second only to Chuck's in force | 23:56 | |
| AL13N | ok, i gotta go sleep | 23:57 |
| AL13N | work tomorrow | 23:57 |
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