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| haasn | Hey! I'd just like to express my enthusiasm for the SailfishOS project; I've only recently delved into the world of “modern phones” and this OS is part of the reason I even considered one. I like how it's basically just another Linux distribution, so I can just SSH in and use all of the commands in the way I'd expect them to work (unlike Android), and the use of btrfs+wayland+Qt5+btrfs etc. instead of | 00:59 |
|---|---|---|
| haasn | weird custom Java components is also really cool. | 00:59 |
| haasn | One thing I'm wondering about though is what the status is of freeing up the still-proprietary UI components. I think it's important for a project like this to be fully free so the community can contribute; and I'd in particular also be interested in contributing fixes for issues I've noticed as well, for example the inability to enable OTR encryption (even though the backend, telepathy, should readily | 01:00 |
| haasn | support it by now) | 01:00 |
| haasn | Also, I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I'm worried about the level of personally identifying information that the Jolla company tracks about me when using eg. the Jolla “harbour”, in particular what concerns me deeply is the fact that I was required to register an account in order to access the software repository. Is there a way to avoid this, while still being able to benefit from OS | 01:10 |
| haasn | updates etc.? | 01:10 |
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| andyr0ck_ | re: freeing up the UI components, I don't recall reading that was on the cards. Have you a source for that? | 01:50 |
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| haasn | The SailfishOS article on Wikipedia says “Overall EULA is proprietary, most elements planned to be open source[2][3]” | 02:05 |
| haasn | But I haven't read [2] nor [3] | 02:05 |
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| haasn | It would be very disappointing if this is not on the roadmap at all | 02:30 |
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| andyr0ck_ | ah, ok. i thought they were going to keep it proprietary...you know, as their added value. | 02:30 |
| andyr0ck_ | well, they wouldn't be the only open source project to keep some thing like artwork to themselves...but i suppose the UI is much more than just artwork. | 02:31 |
| haasn | What's the major barrier? Market competition from other manufacturers that might take SailfishOS and place it on better hardware? | 02:31 |
| andyr0ck_ | well, yes! :-) | 02:31 |
| andyr0ck_ | in a world where everybody makes sailfish phones what would differentiate them? | 02:32 |
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| haasn | andyr0ck_: It would distinguish them by virtue of them being the developers - if there is a demand for SailfishOS progress, people are incentivised towards buying a phone from Jolla. Also, this includes manufacturers of phones running SailfishOS. They also benefit from SailfishOS progress, so they are incentivised towards funding Jolla's SailfishOS development | 02:34 |
| haasn | andyr0ck_: I guess a similar question can be asked for Android - the Android phone market is based on a gigantic ecosystem of many different developers publishing devices running the base system | 02:34 |
| haasn | running the same base system* | 02:34 |
| haasn | I often wonder about what a system of “(inverse) bug bounties as a business model” would look like. Basically, if anybody has an issue with SailfishOS, they would post on the SailfishOS tracker, and if they feel strongly enough about the issue they can attach their own personal “bug bounty” payment to the issue request | 02:36 |
| haasn | And if Jolla ever gets around to implementing it, they would collect the bug bounties for this feature. In other words, if they act in their own financial interest, Jolla would always implement the features that have the highest bounties currently attached - which would tend to correspond with the most requested features | 02:37 |
| haasn | The problem is that it would need enough popularity to be usable, since you can't expect 5 odd users to each contribute $50,000 payments on a large feature, you would need 50,000 users each contributing $1 payments | 02:39 |
| haasn | hmm.. | 02:39 |
| haasn | andyr0ck_: SailfishOS should totally come with built-in placeholders everywhere: “X feature could be here. Click here to pay $1 and help fun its development” ;-) | 02:40 |
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| andyr0ck_ | hmm, being distinguished as the developer doesn't pay salaries! And, as much as I'd like to think that *should* be a bankable asset, the average phone consumer isn't going to give a damn if company A did it first and invented the thing, they're most likely to go with company B because B's phone is whizzier. :-) | 03:42 |
| andyr0ck_ | It would distinguish them to OEMs and teh like, though. They can (or at least should) be able to see the value in ensuring the OS's continued development. | 03:43 |
| andyr0ck_ | but the avergae consumer doesn't give a damn. "how many cores?" "what res screen?" etc etc | 03:44 |
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| jaacoppi | haasn: interesting idea | 05:18 |
| * Stskeeps should read backlog.. | 05:19 | |
| Stskeeps | haasn: you around by chance still? | 05:22 |
| haasn | I am | 05:22 |
| Stskeeps | okay, i'll engage in conversation a little past my breakfast :) good input | 05:22 |
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| Stskeeps | haasn: we're slowly but firmly moving forward on the freeing up of components. we're in the middle of a huge ui upheaval right now and as you know trying to open source something while everybody is too busy to answer 'newbie' questions is not a good thing for contribution. | 05:29 |
| Stskeeps | Jolla software repository account comes down to technical needs: our ability to offer individual updates to different groups (opt-in for early access, community beta testers, etc); the ability to only provide the exact packages/apps you've requested instead of 60mb+ RPM repository lists; and that 3rd party bits may require to be downloaded only to jolla devices.. | 05:30 |
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| Stskeeps | haasn: major barrier has been that we have to stay sustainable; we have 100+ people working and that means we have to be careful about our assets, one wrong decision and it could capsize the entire boat. i do think we're in a much better position nowadays though | 05:32 |
| Stskeeps | haasn: i like your idea as inverse bug bounties and will suggest it around | 05:32 |
| haasn | Stskeeps: The thing I had in mind while suggesting that would be something like kickstarter. Kickstarter is slowly becoming a “popular” thing for stuff like new hardware, I think it would be cool of it would become as popular (among non-techies) for software components as well | 05:33 |
| haasn | But I don't know how to achieve that | 05:33 |
| haasn | I think it would be great for the free software community in general though, since it's a business model that legitimately works with free software, because by the time you've developed something and released it to the community, you already have the money | 05:34 |
| haasn | And it's also based on actual needs and desires, rather than corporate projections and marketing ;) | 05:34 |
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| haasn | Stskeeps: Anyway, nice to hear that you are moving forwards on the idea of freeing up stuff; I think one of the most important things to consider here is the privacy aspect - eg. components like a keyboard or messaging UI being closed source is scary because there's no way you can rule out them containing a keylogger (and indeed, it wouldn't actually be too outlandish for such a thing to be labelled off | 05:38 |
| haasn | as a ‘feature’ - eg. having “cloud-based user dictionaries” as an excuse to save everything the user has ever entered, or using online voice recognition to store everything the user has ever said) | 05:38 |
| haasn | Stskeeps: The harbour thing sounds more or less reasonable. It would be cool if there was a way to distribute this network or something along those lines, incidentally; for example, I would gladly host my own set of mirrors for the repository on my university servers if there was an easy way to do this; in exchange for not having to be in constant communication with some centralized point of access | 05:41 |
| Stskeeps | haasn: well, the problem isn't distribution; the problem is end user :) | 05:42 |
| Stskeeps | as an example, downloading 60mb on 2G isn't acceptable | 05:42 |
| haasn | (Perhaps in combination with package signing and centrally published keys, and various other techniques that all the major distros have used over the years to make this sort of thing safe and easy) | 05:42 |
| haasn | That's true | 05:42 |
| Stskeeps | haasn: well, i'd love for us to remotely have the time to add keyloggers; we're having enough struggles doing normal features :p | 05:42 |
| Stskeeps | so we're focusing on giving the user the best experience | 05:42 |
| haasn | I was thinking along the lines of having my own account on my own server, sort of like I can do with XMPP for chatting :) | 05:42 |
| Stskeeps | while balancing privacy vs conviencience | 05:42 |
| Stskeeps | as an example, AGPS will for sure send information about where you are | 05:43 |
| Stskeeps | but nobody wants to wait 20 minutes for a GPS fix. | 05:43 |
| haasn | Every choice of privacy vs convenience is fine as long as it's a choice that the user can make :) | 05:43 |
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| haasn | I'm just worried that with convenience being the default choice these days, the option of privacy is becoming decreasingly feasible to pursue | 05:43 |
| Stskeeps | probably | 05:43 |
| Stskeeps | it's about picking your battles | 05:43 |
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| Stskeeps | we're rapidly heading into a mobile industry where your mobile is acting against your best interests | 05:44 |
| haasn | AGPS is a good example, because I know for certain that I do not want to use any services requiring a GPS, so I can easily just turn it off; this is a good thing | 05:44 |
| Stskeeps | and to have a sustainable platform you need users, so it's always a constant balancing | 05:44 |
| Stskeeps | many people, including myself (i'm travelling quite often on business) am using gps | 05:45 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 05:45 |
| Nicd- | just using plain GPS has no privacy implications | 05:45 |
| Nicd- | but waiting that 20 minutes for a fix is annoying :D | 05:45 |
| haasn | I think it's also a matter of isolation. For example, for the Jolla account thing - the idea is all fine and great, and I wouldn't take issues with it as long as it's isolated from the rest of my personal information | 05:45 |
| Stskeeps | sure, but i don't want to stand in the middle of shenzhen and wait 20 minutes for a fix.. :p | 05:45 |
| haasn | For example, to provide this service, Jolla does not need to know my name, nor my list of contacts; all they need is some autogenerated device-specific ID that they can use to track which applications I'm receiving updates for | 05:46 |
| Stskeeps | haasn: in addition to that, us knowing what versions are active in the field, helps us devote where to put our focus on things | 05:46 |
| Stskeeps | which means a better experience for the user, as we invest our time better | 05:46 |
| haasn | The “problem” stems from the fact that the modern cloud is based on integrating absolutely every single piece of information into a centralized service | 05:46 |
| Stskeeps | the cloud is just somebody else's computer | 05:47 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 05:47 |
| haasn | There's “one” Google account that stores all of a typical Android user's life, pretty much | 05:47 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 05:47 |
| haasn | And something like GPS also doesn't require the GPS service to know *who* I am, just *where* I am :p | 05:48 |
| Stskeeps | these days people can use gyroscopes to listen in on you.. | 05:48 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 05:48 |
| Stskeeps | http://crypto.stanford.edu/gyrophone/files/gyromic.pdf | 05:48 |
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| haasn | My stance is that convenience is fine as long as it's measured; and my stance is also that privacy does not have to go against convenience. For example, you can have a completely convenient chat applications that just so happens to have completely transparent end-to-end encryption | 05:49 |
| Stskeeps | yep | 05:49 |
| Stskeeps | it's all a balancing act | 05:49 |
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| Stskeeps | we are somewhat hurt by the fact we were in a rush to ship in order to remotely survive, so some decisions are compromises | 05:49 |
| Stskeeps | but not out of malice | 05:50 |
| haasn | Unfortunately these things are often balanced by the people with the most money and power, eg. Google and Facebook, who can set standards at a whim (or just buy them, eg. WhatsApp) | 05:50 |
| haasn | Fair enough | 05:50 |
| haasn | The “underdogs” are the ones forced to scramble and survive in a market dominated by the big players, after all | 05:50 |
| jaacoppi | the underdogs are the ones with revolutionary ideas that'll challenge the status quo (if they ever get the chance to do it) | 05:51 |
| haasn | I just think it would be cool if you accept the community's help as much as possible; I would love to see Jolla grow into a fully free platform like the Linux ecosystem that is made absolutely amazing by the community's endless devotion to fix problems where problems exist | 05:51 |
| haasn | My mantra when it comes to this is: avoid “success at all costs” | 05:52 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. and it's hard enough already to ship a platform | 05:53 |
| haasn | And certainly as can be seen in SailfishOS itself, it would simply not exist without the *monumental* amount of effort that has been put into free software by giants upon whose shoulders you stand; from the Linux kernel itself to all of the little bits and pieces that make up 99.9% of any system | 05:53 |
| haasn | This is a community where we have to help each other :p | 05:53 |
| haasn | Anyway, gotta shower and head out for the day; it was nice getting some response | 05:54 |
| Stskeeps | haasn: sure, i say the same in my own speeches about sailfishos | 05:57 |
| Stskeeps | doesn't mean there's a load of work on top of the free software though ;) | 05:57 |
| haasn | Stskeeps: I bet; the most difficult part of any free software-based system is getting all of the free software to play nicely together :p | 06:04 |
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| Stskeeps | i call it distribution jenga.. :P | 06:06 |
| Stskeeps | bbl | 06:06 |
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| zGrr | moin :) | 07:52 |
| ericcc | morning | 07:52 |
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| dr_gogeta86 | Stskeeps, don't give up and hang on | 10:16 |
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| lukedirtwalker | can I programmatically navigate forward? | 12:52 |
| lukedirtwalker | aha pageStack.navigateForward() I guess | 12:54 |
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| aeg0n | hola | 18:14 |
| aeg0n | anyone here running Sailfish 2.0 on Nexus 5? | 18:15 |
| Stskeeps | #sailfishos-porters | 18:15 |
| aeg0n | tn Sts | 18:15 |
| coderus | btw, any not Jolla sailor have sailfish 2.0 on any device? :D | 18:20 |
| Stskeeps | think i only know of one guy | 18:21 |
| Stskeeps | and i'm not telling who. | 18:21 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 18:21 |
| r0kk3rz | soooo sledges then :P | 18:22 |
| coderus | someone with android device you helped to port 2.0 to? | 18:23 |
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| Stskeeps | r0kk3rz: nah, he's a sailor | 18:38 |
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| kimmoli | grrr | 19:01 |
| kimmoli | managed to get acquired from libaudioresource, but still no audio | 19:02 |
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| kimmoli | QAudioOutput says: using null output device, none available | 19:03 |
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| kimmoli | meh, even MFC is more fun | 19:15 |
| r0kk3rz | what are you trying to do? | 19:17 |
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| Stskeeps | kimmoli: uhh.. | 19:19 |
| Stskeeps | kimmoli: running as nemo i hope | 19:19 |
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| kimmoli | r0kk3rz: play tone, Stskeeps ofc | 19:21 |
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| r0kk3rz | hmm i thought qaudiooutput worked | 19:29 |
| Stskeeps | kimmoli: give jusa__ a prod on monday if it still doesn't work | 19:29 |
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| kimmoli | ok, will do | 19:31 |
| dr_gogeta86 | hi peeps | 19:31 |
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| coderus | Format.formatDate(model.startTime, Formatter.TimepointRelative) | 19:43 |
| coderus | this function is very relative. it returns different result in my application and in system messages application :D | 19:43 |
| jusa__ | kimmoli: do you have pulseaudio plugin installed? regarding qaudiooutput | 19:46 |
| kimmoli | jusa__: qt5-qtmultimedia-plugin-audio-pulseaudio ? | 19:47 |
| jusa__ | iirc yes | 19:47 |
| kimmoli | no | 19:47 |
| jusa__ | try installing and see what qaudiooutput says then | 19:47 |
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| kimmoli | beeps ... | 19:48 |
| kimmoli | thanks | 19:49 |
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| coderus | i have nice segafault for you :) https://gist.github.com/CODeRUS/24afd21a93a3b5f55344 | 21:03 |
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| sandsmark | hmm, threading involved? | 21:31 |
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