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| coderus | artemma no i'm not | 04:41 |
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| coderus | artemma: no, i'm not working on telegram | 06:48 |
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| Acce | hmm are you talking half in private or is there something wrong with my ignore rules? | 07:05 |
| Stskeeps | or just answering things late ;) | 07:05 |
| jussi | Acce: yeah, I think Stskeeps is right :P | 07:06 |
| Acce | oh yeah :) | 07:06 |
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| artemma | coderus: had such impression from your TMO messages | 07:24 |
| artemma | I wanted to discuss telegram with somebody. Implementing protocol isn't much fun, existing library is GPL, so app got to be GPL too, I never tried it before | 07:25 |
| artemma | was also thinking of trying some collaboration is there's somebody else into telegram | 07:26 |
| ln- | artemma: also, firing laser pointers at helicopters is very close to an attempted murder, so 14 years sounds appropriate (especially on the US scale) | 07:26 |
| artemma | ln-: yeah, I guess I just can't stop being impressed by US scales | 07:27 |
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| admiral0 | artemma: I'm interested in a qt-lib for telegram | 07:45 |
| admiral0 | I'd like to implement it in pure C++/Qt/QCA so it can be used almost anywhere | 07:45 |
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| artemma | admiral0: me too :) I would be into a Telegram UI, possibly cool tricks with scheduling, but low level MTProto lib.. would like to touch it a little only - too much work | 07:56 |
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| admiral0 | i agree it's too much work, and that's why i didn't start. I need somebody to help | 07:57 |
| artemma | telegram-cli could be a good start for it (even though it seems to use Lua somewhere), but it's GPL, so can't be used in closed source and I have issues with understanding biz models with GPL apps | 07:57 |
| admiral0 | i would LGPLv3 the lib | 07:58 |
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| coderus | artemma: why developing closed source applications? | 07:58 |
| artemma | coderus: for biz models only. Can't understand how to make money on GPL code | 07:59 |
| ruskie | artemma, you can sell the app as long as you provide the code(and the user is free to share the code onward) | 07:59 |
| coderus | artemma: you want make modey on telegram client? | 07:59 |
| coderus | on flashlight application? | 07:59 |
| ruskie | that's the essence | 07:59 |
| coderus | why? | 07:59 |
| artemma | and I totally don't mind opening telegram code as long as it is for studying privacy issues or maybe compiling for yourself | 07:59 |
| admiral0 | coderus++ | 08:00 |
| dr_gogeta86 | good morning guys | 08:00 |
| ruskie | artemma, GPL doesn't let you limit the scope | 08:00 |
| coderus | nevermind | 08:00 |
| coderus | i cant explain it for peoples earning money for ignoring opensource | 08:00 |
| coderus | by ignoring* | 08:00 |
| Nicd- | ruskie: but you can't prevent your users sharing the code onwards for free either | 08:00 |
| artemma | yeah, I would like to have some earnings involved. And I can't see how to do it with GPL | 08:01 |
| ruskie | Nicd-, I said as much | 08:01 |
| tbr | it's a difference in business model | 08:01 |
| Nicd- | so your income is now only based on the users' good will | 08:01 |
| artemma | that is unless you control the server or some other added services | 08:01 |
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| coderus | artemma: just dont touch please these kind of software with your proprietary hands | 08:02 |
| coderus | please | 08:02 |
| artemma | :) | 08:02 |
| ruskie | artemma, a lot of projects go with opencore... i.e. the core tool is free but extras like enterprise integrations and such like are extra addons | 08:02 |
| artemma | ruskie: oh yeah, that would do | 08:02 |
| coderus | admiral0: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~rmescandon/ubuntu-telegram-app/trunk/files | 08:02 |
| coderus | admiral0: tg-cli converted to tglib | 08:02 |
| ruskie | artemma, but again if you are linking with things that are GPL you might hit the same issues | 08:03 |
| artemma | ruskie: exactly | 08:03 |
| ruskie | artemma, most of those projects tend to be the copyright holders of the code so they can relicense things | 08:03 |
| artemma | I don't mind people seeing what's inside the code as long as it is me who distributes binaries through app stor | 08:03 |
| artemma | e | 08:03 |
| ruskie | might chat in #gnu about that | 08:04 |
| ruskie | there might be people there that might have some more ideas on that | 08:04 |
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| artemma | coderus: sorry, can't understand comment about proprietary hands. Open source people are cool, I wouldn't mind opening mine as well, just can't see earnings there | 08:04 |
| ruskie | GPL isn't anti-commercial | 08:04 |
| coderus | artemma: its okay for me until i dont know who is developer and why application is proprietary. but i cant ignore it after seeing comments like yours about gpl | 08:04 |
| artemma | comments like I can't understand how to make money with gpl code? Didn't know it sounded scary | 08:05 |
| ruskie | just pro-user and requirse the user gets the same access to the code and can do the same things with the code as the owner(sans outright charging something insane) | 08:05 |
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| coderus | artemma: why you cant sell opensource application? i dont understand | 08:05 |
| artemma | coderus: because somebody else can release it for free on the very same app store on the very same day | 08:06 |
| artemma | that is with GPL license | 08:06 |
| coderus | no they cant after you licensed your code | 08:06 |
| coderus | they cant just recompile/remane application and release it | 08:06 |
| coderus | its illegal | 08:06 |
| ruskie | erm | 08:06 |
| coderus | thats why these licensing stuff exists | 08:06 |
| artemma | coderus: nope. As long as it is GPL, they have to be able to do it. That's my understanding, would love to be wrong | 08:06 |
| ruskie | they can | 08:06 |
| ruskie | they can recomplie and release it | 08:07 |
| ruskie | as long as they stick with the GPL | 08:07 |
| coderus | they can use parts of code, but not whole code | 08:07 |
| ruskie | and release the sources | 08:07 |
| Nicd- | coderus: they can use all of it | 08:07 |
| coderus | and they cant say they developed it | 08:07 |
| ruskie | coderus, they can reuse the whole code | 08:07 |
| Nicd- | it's GPL, they're free to release it | 08:07 |
| coderus | Nicd-: sure they can | 08:07 |
| ruskie | coderus, that's the only definition | 08:07 |
| artemma | as long as you used single GPL bit in your code (e.g. telegram lib) you have to provide sources of the whole app under GPL compatible stuff. Was re-reading GNU faq about it just yesterday | 08:07 |
| ruskie | they can't claim ownership on it | 08:07 |
| coderus | ydut cant distribute it as own project | 08:07 |
| ruskie | coderus, you can | 08:08 |
| sharpneli | artemma: Unless you use LGPL | 08:08 |
| Nicd- | coderus: they can just rename it and say that it's based on artemma's work | 08:08 |
| chem|st | coderus: there are different licenses for what you think | 08:08 |
| coderus | yup. i'm not talking about plain vanila GPL :D | 08:08 |
| chem|st | open source does not mean everything is GPL... | 08:08 |
| admiral0 | coderus: thank you | 08:08 |
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| artemma | that's the point of GPL. It "pollutes" your code. You have to release whole app under same GPL terms. Sure you can have your name there, no problem with it. Yet other people *have* to be able to release same code | 08:08 |
| sharpneli | Yes that is true. If you make a library and release it under GPL then everyone who uses it must do it like that. | 08:09 |
| ruskie | coderus, this is specific to GPL - the entire discussion | 08:09 |
| * artemma was thinking of something like Creative Commons variations for things like Telegram: you can study code as much as you like, maybe compile for yourself, but not redistribute binaries | 08:09 | |
| ruskie | coderus, because a lib is GPL everything that links to it must be GPL | 08:09 |
| coderus | artemma: well. unless you doing something really revolutional and invented something yourself closing your code is what i cant understand | 08:10 |
| Nicd- | I just use MIT for my little apps | 08:10 |
| artemma | coderus: did I forgot to mention I'd like to see a monetization angle and I can't see it in GPL? | 08:10 |
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| coderus | artemma: nobody around you talking about GPL except you | 08:11 |
| artemma | as long as somebody helps me to understand how TG client could earn money under GPL, I'll be happy to join | 08:11 |
| coderus | i'm talking about opensource, not gpl | 08:11 |
| coderus | gpl equal to opensource | 08:11 |
| coderus | opensource not equal to gpl | 08:11 |
| artemma | coderus: well, that's how the whole discussion started: the only linux lib for tg api that i know is under GPL | 08:11 |
| sharpneli | artemma: GPL or LGPL? | 08:11 |
| artemma | if there was less polluting license I'd be happy | 08:11 |
| artemma | GPLv2 | 08:12 |
| coderus | artemma: actually you dont need to publish all your code if you using GPL parts | 08:12 |
| chem|st | coderus: there is another reason... mask that you are using someone elses code for your commercial products | 08:12 |
| coderus | you need to opensource only GPL parts | 08:12 |
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| ruskie | coderus, he/she's linking to a GPL library... the whole must be GPL | 08:12 |
| ruskie | unless said library has a linking exception | 08:12 |
| artemma | coderus: that's what I was trying to understand. And after reading as much as I could, my understanding is that there are very-very few exceptions. Normally as long as you use GPL lib n whichever way, the rest of the app got to be GPL as well | 08:13 |
| ruskie | artemma, yes... unless the copyright owners adds a linking exception(I believe gcc and glibc have such a thing) | 08:13 |
| sharpneli | That's pretty much true. And it's allright. Someone wrote a GPL lib to get more programs released as GPL. They have the copyright so they can license it however they wish. | 08:13 |
| artemma | coderus: it seems to be impossible (and illegal) to have "GPL only parts". Whole combined product has to be GPL unless you use GPL lib as a really separate app (e.g. communicate with it via pipes or CLI) | 08:14 |
| chem|st | artemma: that is why people try to decompile android stuff... | 08:14 |
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| ln- | ruskie: glibc is LGPL anyway | 08:14 |
| ruskie | ln-, true | 08:14 |
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| ruskie | I know that one or the other had or still has a linking exception | 08:14 |
| coderus | artemma: look at http://www.whatsapp.com/android/ for example | 08:14 |
| tanty | a common trick to avoid GPL linking problems is to use DBus | 08:14 |
| Umeaboy | Hi! | 08:15 |
| tanty | but that depends on the library and how you intent to use it, obviously | 08:15 |
| artemma | there seems to be one exception that I don't fully understand: it seems to be okish for a GPL code to use other libs under non-GPL, so if you put most of your app into such a lib.. | 08:15 |
| Umeaboy | How ya'll doin'? | 08:15 |
| artemma | coderus: in your link there's nothing about GPL | 08:15 |
| ruskie | artemma, he's off on a tangent | 08:15 |
| ruskie | artemma, yeah I guess that could work have the app be GPL and link it to a non-GPL lib that does stuff | 08:16 |
| ruskie | artemma, but you would need to manage those as separate projects | 08:16 |
| tanty | artemma, it is OK for the GPL code, you have to wonder if it is OK with the rest of the libraries used in your app | 08:16 |
| tanty | because the app has to be GPL | 08:16 |
| artemma | tanty: DBUS is good if you are really building two communicating apps. If you are like using the lib, there could be questions | 08:16 |
| tanty | and it cannot be, if some of the other libs cannot adopt GPL | 08:17 |
| artemma | tanty: that part of GNU faq I failed to understand, but they did mention something about ability to use non-free libs | 08:17 |
| sharpneli | It's all about the definition of derivative work. If you make a plugin for a commercial app that uses GPL then the plugin itself must be GPL, not the whole app naturally. | 08:18 |
| artemma | Anyway: the whole point is that I am sad the only linux lib for TG is GPL and I can't see how to use it in app with monetization. Was hoping somebody could advise and could possibly be interested in joining. | 08:18 |
| artemma | I also don't mind releasing client under GPL as long as there is an idea for biz model | 08:18 |
| sharpneli | artemma: Then you probably cannot. And that was almost certainly the intention of the developer. | 08:18 |
| ballock | artemma: see XChat - http://xchat.org/windows/ | 08:18 |
| ballock | it's GPL allright | 08:19 |
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| artemma | sure, Sailfish world isn't about much money nowadays, but having earnings in mind helps me focus on doing valuable stuff | 08:19 |
| ballock | but if you want a Windows binary, you need to buy it | 08:19 |
| ballock | of course, all the sources are there | 08:19 |
| ln- | ballock: the copyright holder is free to dual-license stuff as he wishes, as long as he is the only copyright holder. | 08:19 |
| ballock | ln-: true, but GPL doesn't force you to give out stuff | 08:20 |
| ballock | you need to provide the source along with the binary | 08:20 |
| fzk | license everything under beerware | 08:20 |
| admiral0 | artemma: you make stallman sad | 08:20 |
| admiral0 | :( | 08:20 |
| Skorpy | artemma: you can always as for donations | 08:20 |
| ln- | ballock: actually, you don't need to, according to GPLv2. | 08:20 |
| ln- | ballock: you only need to provide the source upon request. | 08:20 |
| ruskie | ln-, written offer valid for 3 years | 08:20 |
| ruskie | iirc | 08:20 |
| artemma | Skorpy: donations are difficult (almost impossible) for Finland. You need to get a special license for them | 08:21 |
| ruskie | if on request | 08:21 |
| ballock | that means that if you sell the software, you provide the source to the buyer | 08:21 |
| ballock | oh, right | 08:21 |
| Nicd- | artemma: dunno if it would go under finnish law though as you're not finnish. but you're right, asking for donations is impossible in finland | 08:21 |
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| artemma | Nicd-: I live in Finland | 08:22 |
| Nicd- | oh | 08:22 |
| Nicd- | stuff like kickstarter is also impossible here and that's sad | 08:22 |
| Nicd- | they're working on improving the situation though, I hear | 08:22 |
| artemma | guys, I don't mind making TG under GPL as long as there are ideas for alternative biz model (added features maybe), I wanted to start a discussion on it, hoping maybe to have coderus there. Possibly I did such a discussion start the wrong way | 08:22 |
| * Stskeeps sees gpl and gets popcorn.. | 08:23 | |
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| artemma | or another way would be to implement TG lib on something less restrictive than GPL, would love to find partners for it too | 08:23 |
| Nicd- | I haven't used GPL for any of my stuff as it's restrictive. though none of my stuff is that important anyway | 08:23 |
| tg | well, gpl has nothing to do with monetization | 08:23 |
| * ln- wonders if many people would be interested in buying a support contract | 08:24 | |
| Nicd- | tg: but it does have serious implications with regards to monetization | 08:24 |
| sharpneli | artemma: Isn't telegram specific to that one company? | 08:24 |
| sharpneli | It just accesses their services basically | 08:24 |
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| artemma | sharpneli: It's a useful messenger that I wouldn't mind to have myself, so now after finished log4qt demo I was thinking about the next project and why not tg | 08:26 |
| cos- | Nicd-: is asking for paypal donations really illegal in finland? | 08:26 |
| artemma | cos-: it's even more funny: it's legal to receive donations, but it's illegal to ask for them w/out a special license :) | 08:27 |
| ln- | cos-: yes it is. | 08:27 |
| pp_ | gpl if you own copyright is pretty flexible | 08:27 |
| Nicd- | cos-: as they stated, you cannot ask for them (adding a donation button or bank account is "asking") but you can receive them | 08:27 |
| cos- | this is ridiculous | 08:27 |
| Nicd- | it is | 08:28 |
| fzk | you have to get a permit from the police to ask for donations | 08:28 |
| sharpneli | But begging on the other hand is legal, which is funny,. | 08:28 |
| tg | you can still ask for money for it, even if it's gpl, for instance some ppl put their apps in app stores or ask money for the binaries, and release the source anyway for those who want to compile it themselves | 08:28 |
| Nicd- | fzk: but private persons cannot get that permit | 08:28 |
| fzk | Nicd-: exactly | 08:28 |
| ln- | and not companies either | 08:28 |
| ballock | I overheards some conversation that as bitcoin was stated not to be money, you're free to ask for bitcoins ;) | 08:28 |
| tg | or you can provide services/support | 08:29 |
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| cos- | perhaps i'll need to start a company in hong kong or some other country without silly laws | 08:29 |
| Stskeeps | get paid in bitcoins? | 08:29 |
| ballock | why not? | 08:29 |
| cos- | too difficult.. and almost nobody donates anyway :-( | 08:29 |
| sharpneli | artemma: Just make the program as GPL but don't release any graphical assets etc under it. | 08:30 |
| coderus | well, i received enough donations when started Mitakuuluu for SailfishOS project | 08:30 |
| cos- | i actually have one app which is GPL but is commercial in google play. nobody has bought it. | 08:30 |
| fzk | that thing sucks with foss, people havent gotten it that they must donate in order to keep the projects alive | 08:30 |
| pp_ | oh, you can also get around gpl with popen() (ok, IANAL and it might get messy :-) ) | 08:30 |
| coderus | but today i receiving donations not so often... | 08:31 |
| artemma | coderus: yeah, I was thinking about donations as well. Never tried them before, could have tried if it was possible in Finland | 08:31 |
| Acce | cos-: you can _receive_ but cannot _ask_, so in practise you cannot even receive | 08:31 |
| coderus | just ask someone to ask donations for you :) | 08:31 |
| sharpneli | pp_: to be strict even linking against GPL is not necessarily illegal as long as your program is not a derivative work of it. But I wouldn't want to try that in court. | 08:31 |
| cos- | Acce: yep. i'm a criminal. | 08:31 |
| Acce | because who on earth wants to donate so badly they send you a message asking for bank account or paypal | 08:31 |
| coderus | make a publisher | 08:31 |
| artemma | adding non-free features sounds more interesting for me.. but I don't mind trying donations if somebody helps me understand | 08:32 |
| artemma | the whole biz model | 08:32 |
| fzk | if someone started a organization to handle donations for devs in finland? | 08:32 |
| coderus | publisher distribute binaries and opening support threads and asking donations for developer :) | 08:32 |
| artemma | fzk: I guess Jolla could do that | 08:32 |
| fzk | wouldnt that solve "it"? | 08:32 |
| cos- | perhaps some day sailfish has easy to use micropayment api | 08:32 |
| fzk | sure, a lot of administration but still | 08:32 |
| artemma | fzk: so far Jolla's support to dev communities seems to be. limited | 08:33 |
| coderus | artemma: best way is creating individual company | 08:33 |
| coderus | and all your problems became solved automatically | 08:33 |
| coderus | just pay fee | 08:33 |
| artemma | coderus: it won't help donations issues (I have a company BTW). You need to get money collection license for asking for donations | 08:33 |
| coderus | you dont need donations anymore, you start receiving payments | 08:34 |
| ln- | fzk: the organization would need to be somehow beneficial to society (+ other criteria), otherwise it wouldn't get the permit any more than a private individual would. | 08:34 |
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| pp_ | you could do it by paying salary taxes etc. | 08:35 |
| pp_ | for the "donations" | 08:35 |
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| artemma | coderus: and we are back to the beginning of discussion: I don't know why payment-based apps would work for GPL apps, so I am looking for somebody to help me understand it or to help with building non-GPL telegram | 08:35 |
| fzk | ln-: im thinking, lets say an entity that is specifically targeted for developers and projects | 08:35 |
| cos- | i'll start wearing motorcycle helmet hood while coding, like any true black hat hacker | 08:35 |
| coderus | artemma: just check from other stores | 08:35 |
| fzk | i think that could be classed as benifical | 08:35 |
| coderus | are there too many free clones of paid opensource applications? | 08:35 |
| artemma | or to help thinking about non-app-payment based biz models | 08:35 |
| coderus | i know only limited incidents | 08:36 |
| artemma | coderus: I tried searching a little and couldn't find GPL apps that ask for payment. The only case seems to be, okay we compile it for windows for money | 08:36 |
| coderus | in real world (outside your mind) nobody want to recompile your application and distribute it | 08:36 |
| fzk | coderus: except for companies | 08:36 |
| artemma | well, I seem to be unable to find any GPL app that is actually sold in the *nix world. Maybe I searched not very well | 08:37 |
| coderus | fzk: examples please. | 08:37 |
| coderus | there are many paid apps with building instructions at website | 08:37 |
| fzk | coderus: im pretty sure big companies are interested in internals that could be competetive to their products | 08:37 |
| coderus | fzk: as i said before: "unless you doing something really amazing and popular" | 08:39 |
| coderus | most of projects are "just apps" | 08:39 |
| Raim | artemma: Stellarium did that, it is GPL and they still sold the app for the N900/N9 | 08:39 |
| coderus | Raim: +1 | 08:39 |
| artemma | Raim: thanks, will have a look at them! | 08:39 |
| coderus | i'm thinking you now searching problems before is really exists | 08:40 |
| cos- | i even bought stellarium, while knowing it's GPL | 08:40 |
| Raim | but they also have Desktop versions for Windows/Linux/Mac for free and take donations... so not a full business model financing the development | 08:40 |
| artemma | Raim: and others didn't release their code on the same N900 for free, because.. nobody cared? | 08:40 |
| TheBootroo_work | ohai ! | 08:40 |
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| TheBootroo_work | dunno what you guys think but i was wondering that between my 3 apps on the harbour, one has really ugly icon compared to others : Feed'me | 08:41 |
| tbr | there are plenty of apps that are GPL but are being sold | 08:41 |
| TheBootroo_work | i could try to improve it a little | 08:41 |
| artemma | coderus: so far I am only trying to understand the possible monetization angle. It sorta sucks to start while not having a smallest imonetization idea (that is if you care abt monetization) | 08:41 |
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| ballock | artemma: I guess in your case a GPL and an entry in the paid Jolla store would be more than good enough | 08:42 |
| Raim | artemma: I guess so. why bother to build it yourself or take someone else binaries as long as you you can get it from the store for a small price? | 08:43 |
| artemma | ballock: but then.. anybody could release same for free the very next day | 08:43 |
| sharpneli | Because tbh requesting the sources and making your own app from that would take the same amount of time than just making the app from scratch | 08:43 |
| ballock | artemma: highly unlikely | 08:43 |
| Raim | but that was mainly before OpenRepos/Warehouse existed, which would make such a distribution easier... | 08:43 |
| fzk | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh-cnaJoGCw#t=2153 | 08:44 |
| Raim | sharpneli: the threat would be that someone else produces binaries and makes them easily accessible for free, so nobody pays for your version any more. | 08:44 |
| * artemma thinks it's time to get back to day work | 08:45 | |
| fzk | ^ pretty interesting talk about including funding | 08:45 |
| * lbt sees backlog on money+GPL ... something he's keen on supporting | 08:45 | |
| coderus | artemma: in real world paid proprietary warez applications have bigger amount than paid opensource warez | 08:45 |
| sharpneli | Raim: Sure there is that threat. But who would bother to do it? | 08:45 |
| sharpneli | Raim: We are talking about 1 dollar trivial app here. | 08:46 |
| lbt | sharpneli: some people will do it | 08:46 |
| artemma | Well, I am into finding a company for doing something good with Telegram that is either non-GPL or with some monetization ideas if GPL is used (not big money necessary). If anybody is interested in joining, please, ping me. I didn't do much collaboration on private projct in the past, so would be interesting to try | 08:46 |
| lbt | and sell it for 0.50 | 08:46 |
| coderus | artemma: about telegram: just find another project for yourself | 08:47 |
| artemma | selling app is not necessary, additional services or something like that could be used | 08:47 |
| sharpneli | lbt: Keep the copyrights to the UI and graphics to yourself so they wouldn't really get much from having the sources. | 08:47 |
| coderus | let telegram for opensoure peoples | 08:47 |
| artemma | coderus: I can see that you are annoyed with idea of me touching telegram, but can't quite see why. Is the idea of making money from code so bad? | 08:47 |
| sharpneli | Btw. That reminded me. Releasing a game with sources under GPL and the assets as paid would work quite well. | 08:47 |
| * lbt has a proposal that a small number of authors with a GPL app could essentially 'register' that app with the device store | 08:47 | |
| lbt | and charge for it | 08:48 |
| lbt | then if anyone else submits a clone the store makes a decision not to accept the app | 08:48 |
| lbt | the store has no legal obligation to accept apps | 08:48 |
| artemma | coderus: it's a pity, because I would like to collaborate. If the points of view are super-different, that may be impossible, but would love to understand why | 08:48 |
| ballock | oh, I remembered one thing: You know you can't sell Ubuntu due to trademarks? | 08:48 |
| coderus | artemma: its not about telegram | 08:48 |
| ballock | There are trademarks as to the logos and images. | 08:49 |
| coderus | its about application/protocol already opensources | 08:49 |
| lbt | so that becomes a way fot a store to encourage the full GPL'ing of apps whilst allowing the main author(s) to be funded | 08:49 |
| coderus | and you want to make in proprietary for earning money | 08:49 |
| ballock | artemma: It will be illegal for a third-party to just recompile the software with the same name and logos and stuff. | 08:49 |
| coderus | i dont like when opensource goods became proprietary | 08:50 |
| artemma | I don't mind at all having code open. For messenger that positions itself as secure, it is definitely wanted. I just want to find possible monetization there. So far I fail | 08:50 |
| lbt | ballock: fwiw legal protection for an app making you a few hundred € is worthless | 08:50 |
| coderus | artemma: there are nothing about insecure in opensource | 08:50 |
| lbt | even a few thousand or even more | 08:50 |
| lbt | especially if the other party is in a different country | 08:51 |
| lbt | so IMHO legal protection is worthless in this situation | 08:51 |
| coderus | opensource is even better for secure. because you can simply apply a patch | 08:51 |
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| cos- | for example flightgear project suffers from the rebuild+rename trolls. once in a while a "new professional flight sim" arrives which is flightgear renamed and with high price tag. | 08:51 |
| artemma | coderus: okay, so you see a possible paid TG app as making something open source proprietory. I disagree, but understand, thanks | 08:51 |
| lbt | cos-: yep - that's where you need the store to be working with you | 08:52 |
| sharpneli | cos-: What about the graphical assets? Those are under gpl too? | 08:53 |
| cos- | sharpneli: afaik yes | 08:53 |
| locusf | but what if the app is released somewhere else than the store? | 08:53 |
| cos- | http://www.flightgear.org/flightprosim.html | 08:53 |
| sharpneli | Seriously. If you don't want your app to have GPL then don't use GPL libs. Write your own. | 08:53 |
| artemma | locusf: that we can ignore. I don't think any noticeable amount of people will go out of app store for a $2 app | 08:53 |
| lbt | locusf: realistically the store is the primary distribution | 08:54 |
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| lbt | locusf: but equally there's a kinda moral responsibility which other channels may or may not subscribe to | 08:54 |
| locusf | artemma: lbt: okay | 08:55 |
| lbt | locusf: this is all opinion and proposal; and fwiw this is something I was thinking about (and discussed) with Intel AppStore | 08:56 |
| lbt | (that's why I have some fairly solid ideas) | 08:56 |
| sharpneli | lbt: What about an app that looks like a clone but is a reimplementation? | 08:57 |
| lbt | sharpneli: this is for GPL stuff so the src is available | 08:57 |
| lbt | I'd expect that nowadays git history would establish credibility without ambiguity | 08:58 |
| lbt | not that it's mandatory -but it would be a slam-dunk answer if you had it | 08:58 |
| locusf | sharpneli: you mean like learning about the sources amd doing your own? | 08:58 |
| lbt | yeah - that's just competition :) | 08:58 |
| sharpneli | locusf: Or just doing your own. Most of the apps are rather trivial in anycase. | 08:59 |
| * artemma learns a lot from open source and morally feels like I have an obligation for helping ppl learning back. That is why I am always into talking about whichever tricks I used in the app (without sharing code) and into creating easy-to-consume completely open demo projects. But that's about the learning community, not about doing everything with zero monetization | 09:08 | |
| Acce | cos-: maybe this will come to sailfish eventually: http://doc.qt.digia.com/QtPurchasing/ | 09:09 |
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| leszek | hi | 09:09 |
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| M4rtinK | Well I just release everything under GPL :) | 09:12 |
| M4rtinK | It is not like one could make any real mone on mobile apps anyway :) | 09:13 |
| M4rtinK | mostly it feel just like a barrier between your application and users | 09:13 |
| artemma | M4rtinK: I do hope to make a bit. My N9 apps started flying and brining a bit of money before Elop killed the platform | 09:14 |
| M4rtinK | and by your cide being GPL you can use all the existing GPL code | 09:14 |
| artemma | and I do some apps as a day job (managing mostly, but quite successful apps) | 09:14 |
| M4rtinK | so no reimplemnting the wheel over and over again | 09:15 |
| artemma | yes, GPL libs tease you with opportuniites :) And I don't mind surrendering as long as I understand monetization angle | 09:15 |
| M4rtinK | well, even the code I write at work is GPL :D | 09:19 |
| Hurrian | artemma: if you want to use a GPL library with a non-GPL program, you could do like nVidia does :P | 09:19 |
| artemma | Hurrian: I don't know about it | 09:20 |
| M4rtinK | but sure, that is not usually the norm :) | 09:20 |
| * artemma is a newbie in a free software world | 09:20 | |
| Hurrian | make an (open) shim that can link against whatever Telegram library is available for Sailfish, then pass messages to the GUI via sockets/shm/whatever | 09:21 |
| Hurrian | your proprietary, shiny GUI would not link against the GPL'd Telegram library, which means you don't violate it ;) | 09:22 |
| Hurrian | that's what nVidia does with their proprietary GPU drivers, a GPL kernel module that passes data to a closed blob | 09:23 |
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| Hurrian | given, the above is a massive kludge, but it's the only option if you want to build a closed app | 09:32 |
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| ruskie | Hurrian, well not the only option | 09:41 |
| ruskie | Hurrian, can always write own closed lib | 09:41 |
| ruskie | even sell it | 09:41 |
| Hurrian | ruskie: with every other Telegram library being GPL'd, it might be a challenge convincing others that it was made clean-room | 09:42 |
| ruskie | true | 09:42 |
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| sharpneli | artemma: take the unofficial CLI app for telegram and make a closed QT app that uses it on background ;D | 09:44 |
| tanty | yeah, basically, provide a DBus interface between the UI and the CLI | 09:44 |
| tanty | and you are good to go | 09:44 |
| artemma | isn't it sorta against GPL if the only reason for DBUS is for communicating with the lib? | 09:45 |
| tanty | well, it is kind of against the GPL to get to this tricks | 09:45 |
| tanty | you better GPL you code, IMHO | 09:45 |
| tanty | but, no, I don't see how that would be against the GPL | 09:45 |
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| artemma | tanty: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#MereAggregation | 09:46 |
| artemma | ".. and the semantics of the communication (what kinds of information are interchanged)." | 09:46 |
| artemma | "But if the semantics of the communication are intimate enough, exchanging complex internal data structures, that too could be a basis to consider the two parts as combined into a larger program." | 09:46 |
| * artemma isn't into violating license spirit as well, not just the letter | 09:47 | |
| fzk | gpl really doesnt like other licenses :( | 09:47 |
| tanty | artemma: good point, I was not aware of that clause | 09:48 |
| sharpneli | artemma: If you want to follow the spirit then it's allright to make a closed messaging app which communicates with generic plugins. And then just make the Telegram plugin under GPL | 09:48 |
| artemma | well, if using GPL lib in a non-GPL app is impossible, that's okay. We just need to figure out a biz model for GPL code or create a non-GPL lib. For both ways it would be great to find interested partner. I don't think I could pull it alone | 09:48 |
| sharpneli | As a bonus someone might develop an IRC plugin for your app then | 09:48 |
| tanty | yes, but then, I suppose you should just use Telepathy | 09:48 |
| tanty | just saying ... | 09:48 |
| sharpneli | idd | 09:48 |
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| artemma | sharpneli: yeah, an architecture open for plugins could sounds clear enough for me. Could work well e.g. for coderus, who already has good UI for whatsapp | 09:49 |
| tanty | so you could create a closed source app using Telepathy | 09:49 |
| artemma | tanty: pluggin into Jolla own messaging app (via Telepathy?) sounds good and convenient. Can't see much biz there, but would be a great free project for somebody | 09:50 |
| tanty | yes, I understand you | 09:50 |
| tanty | unless you can provide a better UI | 09:50 |
| tanty | than the one provided by Jolla | 09:50 |
| tanty | using their own Telepathy FW | 09:50 |
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| stephg | hm | 09:57 |
| stephg | sim registration should work on the n4 right? | 09:57 |
| Stskeeps | yes | 09:58 |
| Stskeeps | but note warnings in my mail | 09:58 |
| stephg | let me reboot it again then | 09:58 |
| stephg | Stskeeps, but my hair is important to me ;) | 09:58 |
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| stephg | ah there we go | 10:03 |
| Stskeeps | it works after reboot fwiw, not hotswap, afaik | 10:04 |
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| stephg | I forgot to turn it off on insert, and didn't see it after that reboot, but then did on the one after that | 10:04 |
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| stephg | so here's an odd one | 10:26 |
| stephg | : | 10:26 |
| stephg | I have two apps open on the cover screen, settings and mail | 10:27 |
| stephg | am on 3g but fwiw usbnet is also on | 10:27 |
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| stephg | the refresh cover action on the email will cause a cover change in the settings app | 10:27 |
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| stephg | from the normal (no action cover) to the one with a big circle at the top and a X cover action right, two arrows cover action left | 10:28 |
| stephg | does it without usbnet fwiw | 10:29 |
| stephg | once the sync is done the cover on settings changes back | 10:29 |
| roboro | I'm trying to play a radio stream in a mediaplayer element... the metadata changes for each track... is there some way I can update a text title based on the metadata changes? | 10:29 |
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| roboro | the SDK suggests that onMetadataChanged is available as a method... but when I use it... I get a non-existant property | 10:30 |
| tomma | roboro, property binding | 10:30 |
| * roboro googles :) | 10:31 | |
| tomma | Text{text: audioElement.metaData.title} | 10:31 |
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| roboro | mmm I did that... but the text doesn't seem to update | 10:31 |
| Stskeeps | stephg: there's a weird libhybris bug related to that | 10:31 |
| Stskeeps | it was that or GPU pagefaults for that release | 10:31 |
| leszek | roboro: I don't think the metaData.title is changed when only one track is played back | 10:32 |
| stephg | Stskeeps, cool, is known then | 10:32 |
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| leszek | roboro: at least I have the exact same issue on my video player implementation aswell. radio stream is playing fine and metadata if ever is obtained won't change when music changes on the radio | 10:33 |
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| stephg | one other anecdotal thing, with 3g on the phone is getting hot | 10:33 |
| coderus | can i make qmldebugger work in qt creator or locally? | 10:33 |
| stephg | I thought it'd be the battery but the battery is at the bottom and it's getting hot near the camera | 10:34 |
| roboro | leszek: yeah... this is the problem... I have a radio stream that changes metadata for each track but since the mediaplayer only sees one source... it doesn't update | 10:34 |
| coderus | i really want to debug my superbig list delegate | 10:34 |
| roboro | leszek: did you ever work out a solution? | 10:34 |
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| leszek | roboro: nope as it seems to be an issue with qt5.1 and I didn't want to mess fixing it and recompile it | 10:34 |
| coderus | roboro: did you tried onMetaDataChanged signal? | 10:34 |
| roboro | coderus: yeah... I get non-existent property when I use that | 10:35 |
| roboro | apparently that's not a signal according to the qtmultimedia 5 spec | 10:35 |
| leszek | roboro: exactly that signal seems not to exists | 10:35 |
| leszek | -s | 10:35 |
| roboro | its a bugger | 10:36 |
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| roboro | its weird though... the SDK prompts that signal inside a mediaplayer element... so its lurking somewhere | 10:40 |
| leszek | roboro: the only other possible way would be using a c++ function to obtain the correct metadata and push it to your qml files. If I find such a solution you will see it first in my videoPlayer (LLs videoPlayer) | 10:40 |
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| roboro | heh... leszek, I'm constantly looking over your code to see if you've found solutions for things :D | 10:41 |
| coderus | well, if you just output title with some timed, would it change? | 10:41 |
| roboro | coderus: I haven't tried that yet... need to write up some code to do the refresh | 10:42 |
| leszek | coderus: the problem is the metadata.title isn't changed at all in qt5.1. Only when you change the whole track url | 10:42 |
| coderus | leszek: pkay. qt bug then | 10:42 |
| leszek | at least this is my experience so far | 10:42 |
| leszek | coderus: exactly | 10:42 |
| coderus | and we cant do anything :) | 10:42 |
| leszek | exactly | 10:43 |
| leszek | besides using something else to obtain the metadata | 10:43 |
| roboro | except write a new library | 10:43 |
| roboro | uuurgh | 10:43 |
| leszek | roboro: I never tested the metadata obtaining procedures in c++ qt5. Maybe they aren't buggy :P | 10:44 |
| roboro | being a C++ novice... I try to avoid writing anything in C++ | 10:44 |
| roboro | I know that's bad... and the only way I will improve is to actually dive in | 10:45 |
| roboro | but time is limited | 10:45 |
| roboro | I have a real job after all :D | 10:45 |
| leszek | yeah c++ can be a pain in the butt. But at least I can tell you the qt implementation is the best / easiest I've seen so far | 10:45 |
| roboro | also I like writing in straight qml and javascript... it encourages other people to consider writing applications if they can see your source just lurking there... you don't have to be a whizz programmer to make an app | 10:46 |
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| roboro | leszek: yeah... I've looked over a fair bit of code already and it looks friendly enough... I'm just not very confident | 10:47 |
| Nicd- | the best thing about Python + Qt software on the N900 was that I could fix bugs myself if I found them :) | 10:47 |
| Nicd- | having access to the Python sources straight on the device | 10:47 |
| roboro | Nicd-: yeah... python rocks | 10:47 |
| roboro | you can do a fair bit using thp's pyotherside library | 10:47 |
| roboro | I've already used it for one app | 10:48 |
| roboro | okay... more just to do a few quick file writes etc... but the library looks pretty extensive | 10:49 |
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| leszek | yeah Nicd- the same goes for qml files and js files :) Well I have an old pre3 here and literally reprogrammed the camera app to have double the features it had on the stock system. Just because the whole app was written in javascript :P | 10:49 |
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| coderus | qml debugging. please help. | 10:50 |
| roboro | sorry coderus... don't know the answer to your question | 10:52 |
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| TheBootroo_work | who is in charge of Harbour QA . | 11:01 |
| TheBootroo_work | ? | 11:01 |
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| TheBootroo_work | i have 3 apps awaiting QA | 11:11 |
| TheBootroo_work | and for one, i pushed another update, but it's blocked | 11:12 |
| coderus | nobody is really debugging QML? | 11:12 |
| Aard | iekku: ^^ | 11:12 |
| TheBootroo_work | that's stupid because when app will finally be approved, it's be outdated | 11:12 |
| TheBootroo_work | i should be able to un-QA the first one and resubmit | 11:12 |
| TheBootroo_work | because first package had an issue | 11:13 |
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| cos- | TheBootroo_work: i believe they have humans working there and they may notice the newer version | 11:14 |
| TheBootroo_work | cos, well i hope | 11:14 |
| gabriel9|work | That's it, i give up. I can'f fix Audio to use ICY meta tags | 11:15 |
| TheBootroo_work | else i'll have to wait days before old versions is approved, and then other days for new one | 11:15 |
| TheBootroo_work | btw | 11:16 |
| TheBootroo_work | data displayed in harbour dashboard are still not linked with real store ? | 11:16 |
| TheBootroo_work | likes, comments etc | 11:16 |
| TheBootroo_work | download count | 11:16 |
| TheBootroo_work | still 0 everywhere | 11:17 |
| TheBootroo_work | quite sad | 11:17 |
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| Nicd- | coderus: the only thing I've heard over and over again is that qml debugging is broken :/ | 11:21 |
| cos- | it's broken. | 11:21 |
| cos- | i have seen it working once last year, but usually it's broken | 11:22 |
| thp | TheBootroo_work: what are the names of the apps that are waiting in QA? | 11:22 |
| Nicd- | TheBootroo_work: thanks for the bible app :) | 11:22 |
| TheBootroo_work | thp: CityBike'me, Feed'me, Bible'me | 11:22 |
| TheBootroo_work | Nicd-: you're welcome | 11:23 |
| TheBootroo_work | i'm fixing issue on it atm | 11:23 |
| TheBootroo_work | i got rejected few seconds ago | 11:23 |
| TheBootroo_work | i have some bugs to fix before pushing real update | 11:23 |
| TheBootroo_work | Nicd-: i worked hard to speed up app loading, and search engine | 11:23 |
| TheBootroo_work | and polished ui a lot | 11:23 |
| Nicd- | sounds good :) | 11:24 |
| Nicd- | what's your source for the translations? | 11:24 |
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| thp | TheBootroo_work: so now that they are rejected, that case if fixed for now, or are some still waiting in queue? | 11:30 |
| TheBootroo_work | Nicd-: https://github.com/lookitscook/osis-bibles | 11:30 |
| TheBootroo_work | thp: two other waiting in queue | 11:30 |
| TheBootroo_work | oh wait | 11:31 |
| TheBootroo_work | one remaining | 11:31 |
| TheBootroo_work | other went approved | 11:31 |
| Nicd- | TheBootroo_work: thanks, I might make a pull request to fix the naming of the finnish version | 11:34 |
| TheBootroo_work | yeah maybe | 11:34 |
| Nicd- | and maybe add an older finnish translation (the newest one is sadly under copyright) | 11:34 |
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| fzk | Nicd-: you should add something fun like linus torvalds types on lkml sometimes ;-) | 11:37 |
| Nicd- | hehe | 11:37 |
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| Yaniel | the bible written like linus would have posted it on lkml? hell yes :D | 11:41 |
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| thp | TheBootroo_work: the remaining one is currently being QA'd as we speak i'm told | 11:42 |
| fzk | latest classic is "perkelnen vittupää" when he was out of english swear words | 11:42 |
| fzk | perkelen* | 11:42 |
| Nicd- | perkeleen* | 11:42 |
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| fzk | isnt it short? | 11:42 |
| Nicd- | it's perkeleen | 11:43 |
| fzk | i c | 11:43 |
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| fzk | my grammar is bad | 11:43 |
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| Nicd- | well, Finnish is funny | 11:45 |
| fzk | can be that the dialect in northern parts differs so much in spoken language | 11:45 |
| Nicd- | can't think of any dialect where it would be that short | 11:47 |
| Yaniel | I'm pretty sure it only gets longer if you go north | 11:47 |
| Nicd- | but maybe it's just bias I have because I already know how it should be spelled :P might be that it sounds short to a non-native speaker | 11:47 |
| fzk | for an example we usually say "olen tappaamassa kaveria", it sounds odd though | 11:47 |
| Nicd- | we? | 11:48 |
| fzk | i live in .se but from raahe | 11:48 |
| Nicd- | nobody says "olen" :D | 11:48 |
| jussi | If you go to certain areas north of helsinki they add letters in the middle :D | 11:48 |
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| fzk | jussi: example :-D | 11:49 |
| jussi | particularly in Oulu | 11:49 |
| jussi | where I did happen to live for 7.5 years | 11:49 |
| fzk | oulu is nice | 11:49 |
| artemma | coderus: I remember seeing statements that Jolla wants to make QML debugging possible. No indication about timeline for it though. Maybe upcoming SDK update | 11:49 |
| jussi | fzk: here is a perfect example - it is my birthday today, and one of my oulu friends wrote on my FB: PALIJON ONNEA! | 11:54 |
| cos- | fixing it is probably digia's task | 11:54 |
| fzk | jussi: ha, that is indeed how it is pronounced | 11:55 |
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| * jussi goes back to listening to 90's classics and feeling old | 11:55 | |
| fzk | jussi: know of any odd dialects of finnish? if you know swedish närpiö has the most odd dialect for swedish | 11:55 |
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| jussi | fzk: not really, Im not a native so I havent that much experience | 11:56 |
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| Yaniel | savo is probably genereally considered the weirdest finnish dialect | 12:00 |
| jussi | Yaniel: actually, I have to agree with you there | 12:02 |
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| coderus | Nicd-: broken at all or broken in qtcreator? | 12:04 |
| Nicd- | coderus: I don't know anything more, sorry | 12:04 |
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| coderus | =( | 12:05 |
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| fzk | jussi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCOlMKVrYaE that was pretty interesting | 12:09 |
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| RenokK | Good day! How are you guys doing? | 12:16 |
| Stskeeps | good thanks | 12:16 |
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| coderus | Can i publish my application which uses dbus services to Harbour if i publish sources to obs? | 13:01 |
| coderus | w00t: Stskeeps ^^ | 13:02 |
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| TheBootroo_work | that's it | 13:02 |
| TheBootroo_work | fixed my two apps in queue | 13:02 |
| TheBootroo_work | one was just version number too small | 13:02 |
| TheBootroo_work | the other had a few bugs, which i fixed | 13:02 |
| TheBootroo_work | both are back into QA wait | 13:03 |
| TheBootroo_work | maybe updates will finally be available later today | 13:03 |
| gabriel9|work | is there a way to detect metadataChanges in Audio qml element | 13:03 |
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| coderus | gabriel9|work: does it really updates if you get data with timer? | 13:04 |
| gabriel9|work | wut? In bash with mg123 i can see ICY-META: StreamTitle='Some title' | 13:05 |
| gabriel9|work | but is it a way to detect that in qml using Audio | 13:06 |
| coderus | metadata in qml mediaplayer seems broken | 13:06 |
| gabriel9|work | 3 days i bust my head with this Audio stream junk | 13:06 |
| coderus | we're just discussed it couple hours ago | 13:06 |
| w00t | coderus: contact developer-care@jolla.com | 13:06 |
| coderus | w00t: ok, thanks | 13:07 |
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| TheBootroo_work | thp: one of my three apps got accepted, two others refused | 13:09 |
| TheBootroo_work | i fixed the pointed issues | 13:09 |
| TheBootroo_work | and submitted again | 13:09 |
| TheBootroo_work | crossing fingers now | 13:10 |
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| coderus | send message to developer-care. will see how long it takes to get first responce on this email :) | 13:13 |
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| kempe | is it anyway to prevent loss of fucus from textinput when using model.insert()? | 13:13 |
| coderus | sent* | 13:13 |
| coderus | kempe: currentIndex: -1 | 13:13 |
| coderus | kempe: to listview | 13:14 |
| TheBootroo_work | Nicd-: did you already submitted patch to OSIS bible github repos ? | 13:14 |
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| kempe | corne, nice that was easy :P | 13:16 |
| kempe | coderus, , nice that was easy :P* | 13:16 |
| Nicd- | TheBootroo_work: no, I'm not that fast :) give me a few days | 13:16 |
| TheBootroo_work | hehe | 13:17 |
| iekku | TheBootroo_work, oh? native apps? | 13:17 |
| TheBootroo_work | iekku: yep | 13:17 |
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| iekku | TheBootroo_work, weird, last time i checked there was only 2 apps in queu | 13:18 |
| TheBootroo_work | iekku: btw, when will the metadata about apps be linked to store ? (the counters for downloads, likes and reviews) | 13:18 |
| coderus | kempe: ;) | 13:19 |
| iekku | TheBootroo_work, hopefully soon. | 13:19 |
| TheBootroo_work | iekku: now they are 2 | 13:19 |
| TheBootroo_work | i'm quite fast at updating | 13:19 |
| TheBootroo_work | i submitted 3 | 13:19 |
| iekku | TheBootroo_work, when did you submit those? | 13:19 |
| coderus | iekku: Stskeeps mentioned you about qml debugging? | 13:19 |
| TheBootroo_work | one got accepted, 2 rejected, but submitted again, and waiting now | 13:19 |
| iekku | ah, today | 13:20 |
| iekku | can't promise those are retested before monday | 13:20 |
| iekku | we don't have anyone working in harbour qa during weekends | 13:21 |
| TheBootroo_work | hehe | 13:21 |
| TheBootroo_work | at least feed-me could be accepted | 13:21 |
| coderus | iekku: you need to hire somebody :) | 13:21 |
| TheBootroo_work | because only issue was version number | 13:21 |
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| TheBootroo_work | and Bible'me got accepted yesterday but new release this morning got rejected because of 3 bugs, which i fixed quite fast | 13:22 |
| TheBootroo_work | so re-test should not be too long | 13:22 |
| iekku | coderus, due finnish working laws it's damn expensive to force people working on weekends | 13:22 |
| TheBootroo_work | hopefully, people will get new version of Bible for this sunday | 13:22 |
| TheBootroo_work | cause the old one is slow as hell | 13:22 |
| TheBootroo_work | i totally rewriten the core part to boost perfs | 13:23 |
| TheBootroo_work | and polished some ui details | 13:23 |
| Hartzi | TheBootroo_work: nice app btw. Did you port it from somewhere or did you code it all yourself? | 13:23 |
| TheBootroo_work | Hartzi: did it from scratch | 13:23 |
| TheBootroo_work | started wednesday | 13:23 |
| Hartzi | okay | 13:24 |
| Hartzi | nice | 13:24 |
| TheBootroo_work | implemented the OSIS XML standard | 13:24 |
| Hartzi | You didn't want to port N9 version of miniBible? It was really good. | 13:24 |
| coderus | iekku: no enthusiasts? :) | 13:24 |
| iekku | btw, sorry that i haven't been here for a while, had long sick leave and had to stay away from work related channels to keep myself away from work | 13:24 |
| TheBootroo_work | Hartzi: too much code, and libsword is PITA to port on sailfish | 13:25 |
| TheBootroo_work | was simpler to me to create a new engine directly in full Qt | 13:25 |
| TheBootroo_work | tailored specially for a Qt based OS | 13:25 |
| TheBootroo_work | ;-) | 13:25 |
| Hartzi | okay | 13:25 |
| TheBootroo_work | libsword has awful api | 13:25 |
| TheBootroo_work | and it's not even nearly as fast as my new engine | 13:26 |
| coderus | iekku: so, can you help me with qmldebugger? | 13:26 |
| TheBootroo_work | the one in QA queue | 13:26 |
| Hartzi | PITA? | 13:26 |
| TheBootroo_work | and i didn't unlocked all the power of it, it's just a start | 13:26 |
| Nicd- | pita kebab | 13:26 |
| Nicd- | ;) | 13:26 |
| TheBootroo_work | Hartzi: Pain In The Ass | 13:26 |
| Hartzi | ah | 13:26 |
| TheBootroo_work | hard to compile (CMake and all), hard API, too many conversions between Qt and non-Qt types etc | 13:27 |
| Hartzi | TheBootroo_work: what's your source for scriptures? | 13:27 |
| TheBootroo_work | my new engine is ~40kiB of full Qt code | 13:27 |
| iekku | coderus, if you need technical help, i can try to find help, but unfortunately can't provide it by myself | 13:27 |
| TheBootroo_work | a GitHub project named osis-bible | 13:27 |
| TheBootroo_work | *osis-bibles | 13:28 |
| TheBootroo_work | https://github.com/lookitscook/osis-bibles | 13:28 |
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| Hartzi | too bad that it doesn't have as many scriptures as the sword :/ | 13:28 |
| Hartzi | only one finnish translation there | 13:28 |
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| TheBootroo_work | yeah maybe but new ones will surely be added | 13:29 |
| TheBootroo_work | OSIS is the new standard for scripture | 13:29 |
| TheBootroo_work | sword supports it too now | 13:29 |
| coderus | iekku: well, first of all as qmldebugger not working from qtcreator, qi'm trying to find a way to debug QML locally, even compiled debug build with qml_debug enabled, started it with listening port, but havent succeed in connecting remote qmldebugger to phone | 13:29 |
| TheBootroo_work | maybe some sword bibles can be converted to OSIS | 13:29 |
| TheBootroo_work | OSIS format is REALLY simple | 13:29 |
| Hartzi | TheBootroo_work: hopefully yes | 13:30 |
| Nicd- | I could try converting the Finnish Biblia to OSIS format and adding it to the repo | 13:30 |
| Nicd- | if I can find a converter | 13:30 |
| TheBootroo_work | here is finnish one to see https://raw.githubusercontent.com/lookitscook/osis-bibles/master/fi/fin.xml | 13:30 |
| TheBootroo_work | as you can see, quite simple formatting | 13:30 |
| TheBootroo_work | only thing is that you'll need to respect OSIS reference ID notation | 13:30 |
| TheBootroo_work | like John.3.16, Ps.23.1 | 13:30 |
| TheBootroo_work | etc | 13:30 |
| TheBootroo_work | books, chapters and verses have IDs | 13:31 |
| TheBootroo_work | but not that hard | 13:31 |
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| Morpog_PC | SfietKonstantin, on the patch or where? | 13:31 |
| iekku | coderus, pinged one sailor about that | 13:32 |
| SfietKonstantin | Morpog_PC: aah, on the patch looks good | 13:32 |
| SfietKonstantin | just a very small + and - | 13:33 |
| SfietKonstantin | not too big | 13:33 |
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| SfietKonstantin | and about the bg color, I don't know if it is the best or not | 13:33 |
| TheBootroo_work | Hartzi, Nicd- : when the new release comes to you phone you'll be pleased to see that it's really fast and fluid now | 13:33 |
| iekku | SfietKonstantin, o// | 13:33 |
| SfietKonstantin | Morpog_PC: (I was thinking about something more plain, like grey or white, just like sailfish icon) | 13:33 |
| Nicd- | I'm eagerly waiting TheBootroo_work :) | 13:33 |
| TheBootroo_work | hehe | 13:33 |
| SfietKonstantin | Morpog_PC: what do you think ? | 13:33 |
| SfietKonstantin | iekku: o/ | 13:33 |
| SfietKonstantin | iekku: how are you ? it has been a long time ! | 13:34 |
| Nicd- | TheBootroo_work: if you have an IBAN account, maybe I can send you a few euros as thanks for the app | 13:34 |
| coderus | iekku: thanks. ping me please if any luck | 13:34 |
| TheBootroo_work | wow | 13:34 |
| TheBootroo_work | well | 13:34 |
| TheBootroo_work | i should be able to find tht | 13:34 |
| iekku | SfietKonstantin, better now | 13:34 |
| TheBootroo_work | *that | 13:34 |
| SfietKonstantin | iekku: aah, this is relieving | 13:35 |
| Morpog_PC | SfietKonstantin, like the components icon? | 13:37 |
| Morpog_PC | ah default icon | 13:37 |
| SfietKonstantin | Morpog_PC: I don't know | 13:37 |
| SfietKonstantin | you are the designer | 13:37 |
| SfietKonstantin | I just tell about what I'm thinking, however, if you feel that something else works better :) | 13:37 |
| SfietKonstantin | especially about + and - | 13:37 |
| SfietKonstantin | and I love the crack on the icon :) | 13:37 |
| Morpog_PC | and you're the customer, lol ;) | 13:37 |
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| SfietKonstantin | Morpog_PC: customers are usually dumb kings | 13:42 |
| SfietKonstantin | they are kings, but have silly ideas | 13:42 |
| Morpog_PC | hmm, gray doesnÄt fit that well with the crack | 13:43 |
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| SfietKonstantin | Morpog_PC: ah :( | 13:44 |
| SfietKonstantin | then a lighter blue ? | 13:44 |
| TheBootroo_work | SfietKonstantin: are you redesigning 'Friends' icon ? | 13:45 |
| SfietKonstantin | TheBootroo_work: nope, patchmanager | 13:45 |
| TheBootroo_work | ok | 13:45 |
| Morpog_PC | SfietKonstantin, http://abload.de/img/patchmanagerissgd.png | 13:48 |
| SfietKonstantin | maybe putting the crack in a darker color ? | 13:49 |
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| SfietKonstantin | and just the shape | 13:49 |
| SfietKonstantin | looks good :) | 13:49 |
| SfietKonstantin | thanks a lot | 13:49 |
| Morpog_PC | hmm | 13:49 |
| Morpog_PC | a bit daker gray should do it I guess | 13:50 |
| Morpog_PC | darker | 13:50 |
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| TheBootroo_work | looks good indeed | 13:58 |
| * TheBootroo_work thinks he could submit the new icons here for advice | 13:59 | |
| TheBootroo_work | here is the new icon for Feed'me https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/harbour-image-upload/icons/52f3b416e202fcf12b000003/aa33e310-bbec-11e3-ad1c-d37d4d53bcc1.png (awaiting QA) | 13:59 |
| TheBootroo_work | here is Bible'me icon https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/harbour-image-upload/icons/533c75f67779e1367800009b/43381320-baa7-11e3-ad1c-d37d4d53bcc1.png | 13:59 |
| TheBootroo_work | and good old CityBike'me, simply removed outline to match better Jolla icons : https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/harbour-image-upload/icons/52915908afcec66e7c0000d9/b4411a30-bab1-11e3-93b5-45d885af4394.png | 14:00 |
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| TheBootroo_work | Morpog_PC: you are professional designer ? | 14:03 |
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| Morpog_PC | TheBootroo_work, nope, just a hobby | 14:06 |
| TheBootroo_work | oh ok, just like me in fact | 14:06 |
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| Morpog_PC | i like the bible one much | 14:07 |
| TheBootroo_work | professional dev, designer as a hobby | 14:07 |
| TheBootroo_work | Morpog_PC: yeah was quite to give 3D effect to the book without breaking jolla icon shape | 14:07 |
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| Morpog_PC | SfietKonstantin, I made it a real crack now, so crack color depends on background wallpaper :D | 14:42 |
| SfietKonstantin | Morpog_PC: :D | 14:42 |
| SfietKonstantin | serious ? :D | 14:42 |
| Morpog_PC | sure :D | 14:44 |
| Morpog_PC | http://abload.de/img/patchmanager9gs5e.png | 14:44 |
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| Morpog_PC | and as usual it's in SVG: https://db.tt/buZGi2yZ | 14:47 |
| TheBootroo_work | Morpog_PC: IMHO, the green color of the plus is not dark enough, lacks contrast with patch | 14:49 |
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| Morpog_PC | true, will change it asap | 14:50 |
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| TheBootroo_work | also | 14:51 |
| TheBootroo_work | gradient should be bright atop and dark at bottom | 14:52 |
| TheBootroo_work | else it will look weird beside others icons | 14:52 |
| coderus | use TEXT or BLOB? | 14:52 |
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| Morpog_PC | SfietKonstantin, http://abload.de/img/examplev8u6q.png :D | 14:54 |
| SfietKonstantin | :D | 14:56 |
| SfietKonstantin | nice | 14:56 |
| SfietKonstantin | looking good | 14:56 |
| TheBootroo_work | Morpog_PC: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1237695/harbour-patchmanager.svg | 14:58 |
| TheBootroo_work | DAT CRACK ^^ | 14:58 |
| Morpog_PC | sfiet, did the gradient change bootroo suggested, will upload latest version again :D | 14:59 |
| TheBootroo_work | also if yoy at my edit, i strongly darkened green and red colors | 14:59 |
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| TheBootroo_work | so they are more legible | 14:59 |
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| Morpog_PC | ok, done, same link should still work I guess | 15:00 |
| Morpog_PC | TheBootroo_work, I like it subtle | 15:01 |
| TheBootroo_work | oh ok | 15:01 |
| Morpog_PC | the patch itself is distracting enough :D | 15:01 |
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| TheBootroo_work | but only be carefull that on little size, subtle things are not even visible | 15:02 |
| Morpog_PC | sure | 15:02 |
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| admiral0 | Morpog_PC: Dat Icon :Q | 15:10 |
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| Morpog_PC | I'm sure lot of people will hate it :) | 15:12 |
| Morpog_PC | just like my cargo dock icon :D | 15:12 |
| Sir_herrbatka | Morpog_PC: i don't think that this metaphor would be easily understood by users | 15:12 |
| Sir_herrbatka | IMHO | 15:13 |
| Morpog_PC | Sir_herrbatka, every user that uses this app should hopefully understand it | 15:13 |
| Sir_herrbatka | true that | 15:13 |
| Morpog_PC | it also shows some dangerto those who don't | 15:14 |
| Morpog_PC | maybe | 15:14 |
| Sir_herrbatka | "this app will eat your hamster" | 15:14 |
| TheBootroo_work | .... kill poort little kittehs | 15:16 |
| TheBootroo_work | .... blow your house | 15:16 |
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| Morpog_PC | wtf | 15:17 |
| TheBootroo_work | ... and the shadow of lucky luke will haunt you for the next 99 years | 15:17 |
| Morpog_PC | https://vimeo.com/90977296 | 15:17 |
| Acce | maniacs on the loose! | 15:17 |
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| TheBootroo_work | well, 'im in weekend now | 15:19 |
| TheBootroo_work | seems my 2 remaining updates in QA won't be approved this week | 15:20 |
| Morpog_PC | Hire as SW tester at Jolla and then instantly approve your own apps http://jolla.com/jobs | 15:21 |
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| TheBootroo_work | hehe | 15:23 |
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| Stskeeps | A kickoff meeting about SailfishOS, open source, collaboration, way forward - https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2014-April/003829.html | 16:07 |
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| iekku | my irssi doesn't have like/favorite button :/ | 16:09 |
| Stskeeps | it's called "+1" | 16:09 |
| sharpneli | Relatively epic. It seems systemd parses /proc/cmdline https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 and breaks stuff up if you issue the debug flag to kernel | 16:10 |
| Merbot | Freedesktop bug 76935 in general "Do not parse "debug" command line parameter" [Normal,Reopened] | 16:10 |
| sharpneli | And systemd maintainers say that it's the kernels fault and they don't own generic terms. Which are given to the kernel as parameters :D | 16:10 |
| Stskeeps | sharpneli: meanwhile, microsoft open sources their compiler and the apollo 11 navigation computer is too .. | 16:11 |
| Stskeeps | while we're fighting over words | 16:11 |
| sharpneli | Yeah. The world is going insane | 16:11 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:11 |
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| bentz | hello | 16:12 |
| Stskeeps | hello hello | 16:12 |
| sharpneli | But I have to wonder about the guts on the systemd guys. /proc/cmdline is provided as a convenience feature to see what parameters were given to the kernel. And then they have the balls to tie their own debugging to those parameters and then demanding that kernel changes how it works just so they could use that term :D | 16:12 |
| iekku | Stskeeps, :) | 16:17 |
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| Almindor | is there a way to know when a contextmenu was closed? (regardless of action taken in the menu items) | 16:22 |
| Almindor | I need to do something when the menu closes no matter if the user actually selected an item | 16:22 |
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| Almindor | oh there's onClosed.. | 16:29 |
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| Almindor | how can you display a notification on the top? | 16:30 |
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| locusf | kaltsi: precarious ping | 16:53 |
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| kaltsi | locusf: hi.. off duty already, but wot's up? :) | 17:28 |
| locusf | kaltsi: http://pastie.org/8994578 | 17:28 |
| kaltsi | what's your host? | 17:29 |
| kaltsi | this doesn't look too good: | 17:30 |
| kaltsi | /home/locusf/qt/-confirm-license/include/Q | 17:30 |
| kaltsi | or are you really building it intentionally in a folder named -confirm-license ? | 17:30 |
| locusf | I dunno, the make install put it there | 17:30 |
| kaltsi | I think your configure line is somehow broken | 17:31 |
| locusf | yeah | 17:31 |
| kaltsi | it's one of the configure options | 17:31 |
| locusf | since -confirm-license is one | 17:31 |
| kaltsi | but I'd start from there.. recheck your configure line.. or paste it here | 17:31 |
| locusf | complete make clean might be good too | 17:32 |
| kaltsi | and that's the qt configure line | 17:32 |
| locusf | yeah | 17:32 |
| locusf | how do I figure out the current configure line? | 17:32 |
| kaltsi | it's in a file called config.cache or something | 17:33 |
| kaltsi | no.. config.status in the directory where you built qt | 17:33 |
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| locusf | /home/locusf/qt/configure -developer-build -static -accessibility -qt-zlib -qt-libtiff -qt-libpng -qt-libmng -qt-libjpeg -no-phonon -no-dbus -no-opengl -no-qt3support -no-webkit -no-xmlpatterns -no-svg -nomake examples -nomake demos -prefix /home/locusf/qt -confirm-license "$@" | 17:34 |
| locusf | ah pastebin might have been better | 17:34 |
| locusf | make install installs to -confirm-license | 17:34 |
| locusf | which is stupid | 17:34 |
| kaltsi | I think it interprets the -confirm-license as a part of the -prefix | 17:34 |
| kaltsi | you should move the -prefix option to be the last in your configure line | 17:34 |
| locusf | okay | 17:35 |
| kaltsi | I added rext to the readme file in build tools repo today.. and latest scripts too | 17:35 |
| kaltsi | s/rext/text | 17:35 |
| locusf | massive updates, will prolly update my scripts | 17:36 |
| kaltsi | what's your host machine btw? which linux distro and version? | 17:36 |
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| locusf | Ubuntu 13.10 | 17:37 |
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| locusf | kaltsi: got forward, but more errors now in linking | 18:36 |
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| locusf | kaltsi: will rebuild qt again, it was because of the distributed libs | 18:41 |
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| * Stskeeps yawns | 18:57 | |
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| kimmoli | Stskeeps: contagious.. | 19:16 |
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| jake9xx_ | locusf: when compiling qt (4 or 5) I *strongly* recommned shadow building | 19:34 |
| jake9xx_ | then you don't need to mess around them sources | 19:35 |
| locusf | jake9xx_: okay | 19:35 |
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| jake9xx_ | and before compiling, make sure you don't have $QTDIR already set | 19:36 |
| locusf | I already moved on to hack around in glacier-home | 19:38 |
| locusf | got tired of the qt errors I got while compiling with Qt sources I somehow broke | 19:38 |
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| jake9xx_ | broken sources -> git clean -xdf and git reset --hard HEAD | 19:39 |
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| kaltsi | locusf: if you are willing to try the ready made scripts: "mkdir $HOME/invariant" and have qt4 sources there in a directory called 'qt' .. then just run the buildqt.sh and it will build it for you.. if that doesn't work then there's some build requirement might be missing from your host | 19:41 |
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| locusf | kaltsi: ok, will try | 19:42 |
| kaltsi | if you do buildqt.sh --help, it will tell you which directories it needs | 19:43 |
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| locusf | what about buildqtc? | 19:43 |
| kaltsi | that's after you have built qt | 19:44 |
| kaltsi | it also has a help option and will fail if it doesn't find what it needs | 19:44 |
| locusf | is static build needed? | 19:44 |
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| kaltsi | not if you just want to build qtc | 19:45 |
| kaltsi | it's needed to build the installer framework.. it's all in the readme and script comments | 19:45 |
| locusf | ok | 19:45 |
| locusf | -j8 in use, nice | 19:47 |
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| kaltsi | the scripts use getconf to get the number of cpu's | 19:48 |
| kaltsi | it's nifty: getconf _NPROCESSORS_ONLN => works anywhere(?) with glibc | 19:49 |
| jake9xx_ | locusf: are you building qtc or something which needs to be compiled with static qt? | 19:49 |
| jake9xx_ | we don't run currently qt5 as static | 19:49 |
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| locusf | jake9xx_: yes building qtc, just forgot the static on | 19:50 |
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| locusf | I was interested to build the installer framework too, to fork for Nemomobile usage :) | 19:51 |
| jake9xx_ | well | 19:52 |
| jake9xx_ | those have two parts | 19:52 |
| jake9xx_ | the OSS (being ife from gitorious) and the NON-OSS which is at our internal git atm | 19:53 |
| jake9xx_ | but you don't need to fork anything like that | 19:53 |
| jake9xx_ | what you need is a nemomobile target, install it into sdk and you're set | 19:53 |
| jake9xx_ | our qtc and sdk-vm are totally capable of running on differnet platforms. You "just" need to tweak the ssu a bit and off you go | 19:54 |
| locusf | ok | 19:54 |
| kaltsi | locusf, the installer framework is just the framework required to build installer applications.. the actual installer application sources are not public | 19:55 |
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| jake9xx_ | best approach would be to edit /usr/share/ssu/repos.ini in mersdk vm and create a domain like 'nemomobile' which has the repos you need to run | 19:55 |
| locusf | SfietKonstantin: does this trouble us in any way? | 19:55 |
| locusf | SfietKonstantin: installer sources not being available? | 19:56 |
| jake9xx_ | when ssu domain <your 31337-domain> ; ssu lr lists only the right stuff you're good to go | 19:56 |
| locusf | jake9xx_: ok | 19:57 |
| kaltsi | locusf: you'll need to write suitable installer scripts that then build an installer application.. something like this http://doc-snapshot.qt-project.org/qtifw-1.4/ifw-tutorial.html | 19:57 |
| Stskeeps | http://qt-project.org/forums/viewthread/10213 may be relevant | 19:57 |
| jake9xx_ | or course tht needs to be working in in all components (sdk-vm, sysroot(build target) and possibly emu | 19:57 |
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| jake9xx_ | Stskeeps: yes, that kinda outlines it | 19:58 |
| locusf | kaltsi: okay, thanks for taht | 20:00 |
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| locusf | sleepytimes now, thanks for all the help guys :) | 20:04 |
| kaltsi | bye | 20:04 |
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| taixzo | Hi, I have a problem. I changed one line of my QML, and now my app is a blank white screen; and I changed it back and it's still a blank white screen. How do I fix this? | 20:20 |
| merlin1991 | taixzo: did you try running it via ssh/console and checking the errors? | 20:21 |
| merlin1991 | your description could fit about 20k errors | 20:21 |
| taixzo | merlin1991: How do I do that? | 20:21 |
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| merlin1991 | uhm how do you deploy your application? | 20:22 |
| taixzo | the output in qtcreator is "Connecting to device... Remote application finished with exit code 0." | 20:22 |
| merlin1991 | dang | 20:22 |
| merlin1991 | I guess you have developer mode enabled already? so what os is your pc? | 20:22 |
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| taixzo | PC is linux (elementary OS). I'm running it in the emulator for now. | 20:23 |
| taixzo | I assume emulator has developer mode enabled by default? | 20:24 |
| merlin1991 | ah so you're not actually deploying to the device? | 20:24 |
| taixzo | no | 20:27 |
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| merlin1991 | okay in that case https://sailfishos.org/develop-faq.html contains the info how to connect to the emulator via ssh | 20:29 |
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| taixzo | computer crashed, and I think I figured out my problem | 20:31 |
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| merlin1991 | :) | 20:32 |
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| taixzo | I accidentally put "margins: Theme.paddingLarge" outside of an anchors {} block | 20:34 |
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| taixzo | which strangely enough produced no errors in qtcreator, I had to use fingerterm to see the error | 20:35 |
| kaltsi | taixzo, do you ever see any application output in qtcreator? | 20:35 |
| taixzo | kaltsi: yes, currently " Unable to open input file: No such file or directory" | 20:36 |
| kaltsi | ok, just wondering if you had the latest published sdk update installed (there was an update to just qtcreator back in December to fix some logging issues) | 20:37 |
| taixzo | Mine says "Built on Dec 11 2013" | 20:38 |
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| kaltsi | if qt creator doesn't offer you any updates when you start it, then it's the latest | 20:39 |
| kaltsi | I think the latest should have been built on Dec 16, if I'm not entirely mistaken.. can anyone confirm? I don't have it here myself now. | 20:41 |
| kaltsi | here's the update mail which was published on Dec 17 https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2013-December/001824.html | 20:42 |
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| taixzo | ok, now my issue is I have a SilicaListView inside a Column inside a SilicaFlickable. I want to have a scrollable list of items, with a text input that doesn't move with them (think chat client); but I can't figure out how to make the SilicaListView show more than one Item without overrunning the text input. | 20:46 |
| taixzo | Is there something I should be doing with anchors to make it work? | 20:47 |
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| taixzo | Here's what I have currently: http://pastebin.com/4D7fHtys | 20:49 |
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| merlin1991 | taixzo: in my expirience putting scrollable silica components into other scrollable silica components is a way to have nothing working at all | 20:51 |
| taixzo | ok, how should I have it set up then? | 20:51 |
| special | taixzo: it's also more common in silica UI to scroll the entire page's content; e.g. this is how the official Messages client works | 20:51 |
| special | if you need it, consider https://sailfishos.org/sailfish-silica/qml-sailfishsilica-columnview.html instead of your inner SilicaListView | 20:52 |
| special | but it's not really meant to scale to huge models | 20:52 |
| taixzo | what is the difference? | 20:53 |
| taixzo | Can silicalistview scroll on its own? | 20:53 |
| special | it does, yes | 20:53 |
| special | and putting a scrollable item inside another scrollable item gets complicated. | 20:53 |
| special | you could also remove your SilicaFlickable, but then you're not going to be able to use pulley menus on that page. | 20:54 |
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| merlin1991 | essentially when you have a scrollable inside a scrollable you should try to move that to another page if possible | 20:55 |
| merlin1991 | I've ran into the situation where I needed it otherwise but it's bad for the user experience in the end | 20:55 |
| taixzo | special: I don't think I need a pulley menu | 20:56 |
| merlin1991 | because the inner scrollable has weird scrolling properites | 20:56 |
| special | ColumnView solves a lot of those cases. | 20:56 |
| taixzo | the only other thing I'd have is a settings page, and I was thinking thatwould just be a swipe to access. | 20:56 |
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| taixzo | I made the silicalistview as tall as the parent, but it isn't scrolling. | 21:00 |
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| taixzo | what I have now: http://pastebin.com/Y5kGQST6 | 21:10 |
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| special | taixzo: get rid of Column and use anchors for TextField and SilicaListView | 21:14 |
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| special | your list view has no height, and it's nonintuitive to give it the right one inside of a column | 21:15 |
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| taixzo | ok | 21:16 |
| taixzo | what do I give it for height? Is there some property that lets me say "big enough to fit the content"? | 21:16 |
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