Friday, 2014-01-17

benthorben1) is most important. I didn't look into it yet, but there should already be system processes that have their own uids?00:01
specialthe relevant process runs as nemo00:01
benthorbenwhich shouldn't be00:02
specialprobably true00:02
specialmight be slightly complicated00:03
benthorbenin an ideal world, I'd have each of those critical services run in their own chroot/jail/namespace00:03
benthorbenand communicate via a socket00:03
benthorbenbut it's hard to find some feature that a client app can use to authenticate itself against the password service but which can't be spoofed00:04
specialyou can authenticate local process credentials over unix sockets (or dbus)00:05
benthorbenah, neat00:05
benthorbenhow does that work exactly?00:05
specialSO_PEERCRED or SCM_CREDENTIALS00:06
benthorbenbut from pid uid and gid alone, I can't know for sure which service is requesting a password00:09
specialwhy?00:09
benthorbenbecause process names can be spoofed iirc00:10
specialyou can get information on a pid from /proc/, which can't be spoofed by non-root at least00:11
benthorbenwell, at least in c, if you write to argv[], you change the contents of /proc/PID/cmdline00:13
specialbut not e.g. /proc/PID/exe00:14
specialand ideally you'd have something stronger than a whitelist of executables to be authenticating, anyway?00:15
benthorbenyes that was sort of my point00:16
specialbenthorben: we had a broad task about the credentials security, but I just filed three more specific tasks on the topic internally too00:17
benthorbenspecial: that's good to hear, thanks a lot00:17
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lbtbenthorben: useful - and feel free to actually implement stuff in nemomobile too00:37
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benthorbennemomobile?00:38
benthorbenlbt: is that a euphemism for the jolla?00:39
lbtno :)00:39
lbtnemo is the open project which forms the foundation for jolla00:39
lbtit's the correct place to actually drive the direction of the middleware00:39
benthorbendo you have a flowchart? we have mer, we have nemo and sailfish...00:40
lbtmm ... that's about it :)00:40
lbt+ a kernel00:40
benthorbenbut I'm not sure which is which and what is inheriting from where00:40
benthorbenand which is upstream and which is downstream00:40
lbtsailfish is a fairly thin layer on nemo00:40
fk_lxbenthorben: only what sucks in Nemo (at least for now) is quality of collaboration - code/project drops etc.00:41
lbtmost of sailfish is nemo/mer00:41
lbtso contributing to nemo will often get picked up in sailfish00:41
fk_lxbenthorben: sad, but Nemo in the last year started to be a bit like Tizen in that sense00:41
specialfk_lx: that seems like a very inaccurate complaint.00:42
lbtwell - the main problem is that many nemo devs now work in jolla00:42
fk_lxspecial: I have right to have my own opinions00:42
benthorbennemo is middleware, mer is the "distribution" in a sense and sailfish is the closed source stuff more or less specific to the jolla?00:42
specialwhich instances of codedrops are you referring to? there were some social-related packages, the settings framework sort of happened that way, anything else?00:43
lbtwell, sailfish is mer+nemo+some closed bits00:43
benthorben00:40:48        lbt | sailfish is a fairly thin layer on nemo                                                                                                                                                                                                      │ cxl00000:43
lbtspecial: our people probably should spend more time on freenode than we do00:43
fk_lxspecial: I could mention more, but it seems quite late00:43
lbtbenthorben: :P00:43
speciallbt: that would be a very valid complaint, yes00:43
lbtfailry small delta00:43
lbtspecial: I'm trying to talk more in #libhybris00:44
lbtbut I barely talk in here even :)00:44
fk_lxlbt: I've notcied00:44
benthorbenso. was my complaint about signon actually relevant to nemo or to mer?00:44
lbtfk_lx: just busy00:44
fk_lxlbt: that you talk on libhybris much00:44
fk_lxlbt: what you think and what you are doing - I appreciate that00:45
lbtbenthorben: the signon stuff is layered into nemo afaik00:45
fk_lxlbt: but you are probably one of a few00:45
lbtbenthorben: and I'm not sure if my phrasing is great - I'm really trying to help/encourage what you're doing00:45
fk_lxlbt: that sees the problem00:45
fk_lxanyway, time for me, it's almost 2 AM here00:46
fk_lxcya00:46
benthorbenhere as well00:46
lbtg'night00:46
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lbtbenthorben: do yell if you want to do anything in that area00:46
benthorben"that area" meaning?00:46
lbtsecuring services/keychain stuff00:47
specialwe'd be happy to abuse you :>00:47
lbtoh yeah00:47
benthorbenuh. if I've learned anything about security it's that it's incredibly hard to to right and laughably easy to break even when you think you thought of everything00:48
benthorbenthat's not quite a "challenge accepted" unfortunately00:48
lbtyes - but doing it in nemo and discussing it openly is a good start00:48
lbtfwiw fetchmail stores creds in a cleartext file with 600 type perms00:49
lbtbut the challenges with mobile apps make that different00:49
lbtthings00:49
benthorbenI only use fetchmail with on-demand passphrases for that reason00:49
lbtI have fetchmail running on a VM :)00:50
lbtso there are many approaches to isolation00:50
benthorben(OT: awwwww, I've found a git repo with automated commit messages in $HOME! I like!)00:50
lbthehe00:50
lbtand rsync of course00:51
lbtfor proper backups00:51
benthorbenugh. that reminds me, I desperately need to migrate that vserver of mine00:52
* lbt always says hetzner when people mention vservices00:52
lbtthey have been awesome with merproject00:52
benthorbenbut back on topic. I'd like to introduce a different approach to the whole debate about how to store passwords/credentials00:53
lbthappy to listen00:54
benthorbenwe already noted how we'd ideally need a service running with a dedicated uid/gid in a sort of jail00:54
benthorbenso, why not remove the whole "credential storage service" thing which is a huge security nightmare anyways... and put each service/application into its own jail00:55
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benthorbenwhere we have a standardized directory format (suitably locked down) where each application puts its sensitive data00:56
lbtandroid sandboxes apps and that's on the cards for the future for apps; extending it to services... ok00:56
benthorbenthe point is: you don't have that security (and potential PR) nightmare of a central credential store any more00:57
benthorbenlocking down file system permissions on the other hand is a technology that has been mature for decades00:57
benthorbenit's indeed similar to how android does things, at least where dedicated pids are concerned00:59
benthorbens/pid/uid/00:59
lbtmost desktops run services under their own uid too00:59
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benthorbenor if you don't want to give up the convenience of every program/service running as "nemo", you might be able to restrict yourself to dedicated gids. then you do chmod 060 on your sensible data instead01:03
lbtany isolation need an API and a policy manager01:04
* benthorben is idly wondering how much overhead fuse introduces01:04
lbtuse it - optimise later01:05
benthorbenyou could also go ahead and introduce plan9-like per-program namespaces using fuse.01:05
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benthorbenthen you go ahead and check if the access request to the file comes from the single, authorized binary01:06
lbtmost anything from plan9 is good :)01:06
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benthorbenI concur :)01:06
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benthorbenyou wouldn't even need to have 1 filesystem per service. a single one would suffice, given that the "origin check" can be made to work01:07
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benthorbenyou can throw out all weird APIs and complicated services... everyone knows how to read a file with a password in it01:10
benthorbeneveryone => every program01:10
benthorbenbut every program only get's their unique password file, thanks to fuse magic01:10
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lbtI need to find where jolla's security docs are too01:14
lbtanyhow ... looking at the time I gotta go01:14
lbtit's worth talking more about this and maybe prototyping it - even on-device01:15
benthorbeni've written fuse filesystems before01:15
benthorbenalthough it's been a while01:15
benthorbenbtw, are there any restrictions as to toolchains or programming eco systems?01:16
benthorben(policy-wise)01:17
lbtnothing is cast in stone01:17
lbtneedlessly adding technology areas brings cost01:17
* benthorben is rather fond of go, but the binaries tend to be rather large01:17
lbttechnologies with a smaller user base are also harder to resource for01:18
lbtboth commercially and community01:18
benthorbenso no scheme then... shame01:19
lbthaving isolated components using a given system is more acceptable but it would be wiser to stick to established ones where possible01:20
lbtI think something is written in prolog01:20
benthorbenis there some sort of relevant project-overview01:20
benthorbenDAFUQ? (May be more answers.)01:20
lbthttp://gitweb.merproject.org/gitweb/01:21
lbtlist of core tech01:21
lbtcheck the wiki too01:21
benthorbenbut now I NEED to know what part is written in prolog01:21
benthorbenotherwise I won't be able to sleep01:21
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lbtI'll tell you next time ... g'night :D01:22
benthorbenfound it01:26
benthorbenhttps://github.com/nemomobile/policy-settings-basic01:26
benthorbengood night :)01:26
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benthorbengood $timeofday10:34
sledgesglocaltime10:35
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kaltsilbt, Stskeeps; please check/approve.. helps sdk build & deploy case10:42
kaltsihttp://review.merproject.org/#q,status:open,n,z10:42
kaltsisorry (more coffee) http://review.merproject.org/#change,165110:43
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lbtjust until we sanitise git handling - is it in gitpkg format?10:43
lbtit looks like :)10:44
kaltsino.. it is a gitweb patch10:44
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lbt:/10:52
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kaltsiwell that's the documented way to contribute to mer11:02
kaltsihttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Contribution_in_detail11:02
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Uninstallkaltsi: I can't understand what your macro is useful for11:08
kaltsiUninstall: in our sdk usage case we have a case where we 'deploy by installing binaries' .. not by installing an rpm.. but we still use the spec file and rpmbuild to build the project11:08
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kaltsiin that case it's unnecessary to let rpmbuild do 'duplicate files checking' and other rpm package file validation because we are not actually building an rpm out of it11:09
kaltsithe patch makes rpmbuild stop after 'make install' has been run for the makefile11:09
Uninstallok11:10
Uninstallcool11:10
Uninstalland what about this: [rpmbuild] Fix simultaneous build-in-place and target opts for rpmbuild case ?11:10
kaltsithat's already accepted.. the --build-in-place was implemented earlier but there was a bug in the implementation so that if --build-in-place and --target=i486-meego-linux (for example) options were given at the same time, it would actually not build anything11:11
Uninstallok cool11:12
kaltsiso you were able to only give --build-in-place or --target option but not both11:12
Uninstallok11:12
kaltsiin practice these options are used by the 'mb2' script11:12
Uninstallok11:13
Uninstallkaltsi: if you want to improve further rpm I think we should move to a more recent version11:14
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kaltsihow far behind are we from upstream I wonder11:18
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Uninstallkaltsi: fedora has rpm 4.1111:20
kaltsiall right good to know.. I'm a bit afraid that switching rpm version might introduce packaging failures, but that's just a guess11:24
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lbtkaltsi: the pkgkit git tree has upstream in it ... :P11:25
kaltsipkgkit?11:27
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Uninstallkaltsi: lbt: I think that I would stick to openSUSE 12.3 or 13.1 libzypp, zypper and rpm versions11:31
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Uninstallby the way our version is 4.9.1.2 while openSUSE 12.3 has 4.10.211:33
Uninstalland openSUSE 13.1 has 4.11.111:34
Uninstalllibzypp in 12.3 is 12.9.0 and in 13.1 is 13.8.111:34
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Uninstalllast of the 12 series is 12.16.311:40
benthorbenlbt, special: I just created this post about the password issue: https://together.jolla.com/question/16259/credential-storage-security-issues/11:40
lbtI think calling it a PR disaster is inflamatory and not likely to lead to positive discussion :/11:42
lbtUninstall: we need to push on with that stuff11:43
lbtbenthorben: incidentally #jollamobile is better for jolla specific stuff like that11:43
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Uninstalllbt: 12.16.3 should be really stable I think and we are already using libzypp 12.x11:46
benthorbenlbt: thanks, toned it down a bit11:46
lbtty .. much better11:46
Uninstalllbt: In the meantime I've been also working on connman update too... there are some patches that they don't apply anymore and I would like to have some help by someone who is a connman "expert"11:48
lbtUninstall: yeah - rare breed11:48
Uninstalllbt: who's the best guy to ask to?11:48
lbtlpotter: ^^11:50
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Uninstallok, cool11:51
Uninstalllbt: just one last thing, that is a bit unrealted to mer but sill important for me...11:52
Uninstalllbt: have you any experience with armv5tel?11:52
Uninstallseveral mer packages don't build with it11:52
lbtI'm unlikely to be able to tell you anything you don't know11:52
Uninstallincluding gmp, pcre, ppl and libzypp :/11:52
lbtif it's getting blocking then a summary to the ml may be useful to absorb it11:53
UninstallI don't want to annoy mer community with that problem... we are not building mer for it...11:54
Uninstalloh, right, one last thing... where are Qt 5.2 spec files?11:56
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lbtw00t: ^^12:04
lbtmer:qt:devel I think12:04
w00thttps://github.com/mer-qt/ is the temporary home while it's being shaped up (warning, things may still explode plenty, this stuff isn't what i'd call anywhere near release quality yet)12:05
Uninstallw00t: any known huge problem?12:06
w00tUninstall: well, until yesterday, (and what will be 5.2.1), qtdeclarative couldn't really start any non-trivial applications reliably due to https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-3591712:08
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Uninstallthat looks pretty bad12:10
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sledgesUninstall: did the link i found not help on your armv5tel problem ?12:17
sledgesit had exactly your problem addressed in it12:18
Uninstallsledges: I didn't see it12:18
sledgesright12:19
Uninstalllet me check12:19
sledgeshttp://www.merproject.org/logs/%23mer/%23mer.2014-01-15.log.html#t2014-01-15T19:21:1412:19
Uninstallsledges: thanks ;) I have quassel :)12:20
sledgesthat's brilliant :)12:20
Uninstallhttp://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=46563 <-- I've already checked this page several times12:20
Merbot`gcc.gnu.org bug 46563 in driver "link with -lgcc when creating a shared lib" [Normal,Resolved: invalid]12:21
Uninstallsledges: by the way I was already building libzypp with CFLAGS="$RPM_OPT_FLAGS -lgcc -lgcc_s"12:21
Uninstallhttps://tvheadend.org/boards/5/topics/2876?page=1&r=2921 <-- I didn't see anything useful here12:23
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sledges'undefined reference' is not 'hidden symbol' though..12:23
Uninstallall that __sync functions where available since a long time and MeeGo used to build for armv5tel12:25
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sledgesthen its worth sourcing a different compiler12:27
sledgesor another path is to dig deeper into your current compiler/linker behaviour (using approaches dotted around an (unrelated) article: http://honeypod.blogspot.co.uk/2007/12/shared-library-hello-world-for-android.html )12:28
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Uninstallw00t: I don't see any .spec there... (https://github.com/mer-qt/)13:25
w00tUninstall: check the mer-* branches13:27
w00trpm/ subdir13:27
w00tplacement/presentation is not final, just for ease of hacking13:27
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Uninstallok13:28
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Uninstallthank you :)13:31
w00tnp13:31
w00tpoke me if you've more questions13:31
Uninstallsure13:32
Uninstallw00t: I have an unrleated question about a topic I'm really looking for some help...13:32
Uninstallw00t: do you have any experience with armv5tel?13:32
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w00tUninstall: none at all13:34
Uninstallok13:34
Uninstallthank you anyway13:35
Uninstall:)13:35
w00tlowest I've gone was v6, and that was a brief time hacking around an rpi13:35
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Uninstallw00t: how are we going to deal with qreal ABI change?13:52
w00tUninstall: it went in too late for sailfish at least (SDK was already published before they made up their minds and got it integrated), so we're not changing13:53
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Uninstallw00t: what are they going to do other distros?13:54
w00tI think they're mostly in the process of dealing with it now, so I don't know if there's solid conclusion13:55
UninstallI cannot really understand how they've came up with a similar change...13:56
w00thm?14:00
Uninstallthat is a really bad idea I think14:02
UninstallI can't see how things would improve with a double qreal on ARM14:02
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w00tUninstall: well. the argument is that ARM hardware typically have ways to deal with double on hardware now, so the performance hit is gone (I'm not sure how true that _really_ is but...) and the other part to it is that having code work "differently" on desktop and not is bad, which I do agree with to some extent.14:39
w00tI still personally don't think it was the right thing to do, given that there's supposedly no ABI changes introduced between major releases14:40
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Uninstallw00t: sure15:25
Uninstallw00t: I think that in our private OBS we are going to build 5.2 only on arm*hl with qreal=double15:26
Uninstallbut before we have to run some benchmarks I think15:27
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CosmoHillmoo19:32
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benthorbenare notification services (such as twitter or xmpp) in sailfish taken from mer or is this part of the proprietary layer?22:05
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meShellmaybe you mean Telepathy?22:41
meShelldbus-monitor | grep Telepathy22:41
meShellhttp://alban-apinc.blogspot.de/2011/12/d-bus-traffic-pattern-with-telepathy.html22:41
sledgesmeShell: nearly22:50
sledgesbenthorben: https://github.com/nemomobile-packages/telepathy-gabble22:50
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CosmoHilldag winfriedd22:52
winfrieddHallo22:52
sledges\o22:52
CosmoHillhoe gaat ie?22:52
CosmoHill(I might not understand your answer :/ )22:53
winfrieddFine,22:53
winfrieddyou know me ?22:53
CosmoHillnope22:53
sledgesCosmoHill works for NSA22:53
winfrieddThen he must know me :-)22:53
CosmoHillI've got notepads filled with erm well, notes!22:53
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sledgesor pads22:54
CosmoHillthat would explain why I have one under  each corner of the computer22:54
CosmoHillsledges: how are you?22:56
sledgesheya CosmoHill , not too bad, MOT due22:57
sledgesand you?22:57
CosmoHillI'm alright thanks. not done much this week. Looking at a trolly jack22:58
CosmoHillboth my cars failed their MOT first time22:58
sledgeswell, take off the airfreshners from the rear view mirrors :)22:58
CosmoHillit was odd having to pay to get the fiesta repairs to pass it's MOT before I'd even bought / paid for it22:59
sledgesmust have been worth it22:59
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* sledges replaced fog and headlight, also treated old wound under the bumper - tiger seal does miracles23:00
CosmoHillmy left sideskirt is still hanging off, got ducttape on it to stop it scratching the door23:00
sledgesbut suspension problems might fail MOT still23:00
sledgesow23:00
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sledges...and on the day 8 God invented cable ties :)23:01
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CosmoHilldrift stitching!23:01
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CosmoHillhi ali123423:04
ali1234hi23:04
CosmoHillI think I remember you from #meego23:04
ali1234sure23:04
CosmoHilllong hair?23:05
ali1234no23:05
CosmoHilleh, everyone is the same height in text anyway23:05
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ali1234i've been here the whole time, i just never part23:05
CosmoHillsame23:06
ali1234my machine just crashed because flash-plugin23:06
CosmoHillI lurk then chat bollocks before go back to lurking23:06
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sledgesali1234: incidentally i came across one of the chat logs from 2010 with you having an issue that one guy today had with n900 kernel adaptation :))23:07
ali1234oh?23:08
ali1234i don't remember what that would have been, and i just lost my scrollback...23:08
sledgesyup, a very simple though: Makefile fails due to colons in the pathname up to the kernel tree dir :))23:08
sledgesquite a scrollback :D23:08
ali1234o_O23:08
ali1234i vaguely remember something about that23:08
ali1234and of course, OBS loves colons right?23:09
sledgeshttp://ibot.rikers.org/%23meego/20110904.html.gz23:09
sledgesso very much loves yes :D23:09
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* CosmoHill has never seen a html page with a gz extension23:10
sledgescannot be unseen now23:11
CosmoHillI was still in uni in 2010 so I could sleep / work whenever I wanted23:12
sledgesho-wow CosmoHill and you were there too! :D23:12
CosmoHillyeah, second line of the page :)23:12
sledges*9/201123:12
CosmoHillI joined #meego within the first few days23:12
sledges'hose were the times ay23:13
CosmoHillaww, I've just see lcuk23:13
sledgesand the rest of whole good crowd23:13
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CosmoHillsince I got a job I seem to not do much in the evenings23:28
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meShellGetting Info from connman: dbus-send --system --dest=net.connman --print-reply / net.connman.Manager.GetServices23:29
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sledgesyummy23:34
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