| benthorben | 1) is most important. I didn't look into it yet, but there should already be system processes that have their own uids? | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| special | the relevant process runs as nemo | 00:01 |
| benthorben | which shouldn't be | 00:02 |
| special | probably true | 00:02 |
| special | might be slightly complicated | 00:03 |
| benthorben | in an ideal world, I'd have each of those critical services run in their own chroot/jail/namespace | 00:03 |
| benthorben | and communicate via a socket | 00:03 |
| benthorben | but it's hard to find some feature that a client app can use to authenticate itself against the password service but which can't be spoofed | 00:04 |
| special | you can authenticate local process credentials over unix sockets (or dbus) | 00:05 |
| benthorben | ah, neat | 00:05 |
| benthorben | how does that work exactly? | 00:05 |
| special | SO_PEERCRED or SCM_CREDENTIALS | 00:06 |
| benthorben | but from pid uid and gid alone, I can't know for sure which service is requesting a password | 00:09 |
| special | why? | 00:09 |
| benthorben | because process names can be spoofed iirc | 00:10 |
| special | you can get information on a pid from /proc/, which can't be spoofed by non-root at least | 00:11 |
| benthorben | well, at least in c, if you write to argv[], you change the contents of /proc/PID/cmdline | 00:13 |
| special | but not e.g. /proc/PID/exe | 00:14 |
| special | and ideally you'd have something stronger than a whitelist of executables to be authenticating, anyway? | 00:15 |
| benthorben | yes that was sort of my point | 00:16 |
| special | benthorben: we had a broad task about the credentials security, but I just filed three more specific tasks on the topic internally too | 00:17 |
| benthorben | special: that's good to hear, thanks a lot | 00:17 |
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| lbt | benthorben: useful - and feel free to actually implement stuff in nemomobile too | 00:37 |
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| benthorben | nemomobile? | 00:38 |
| benthorben | lbt: is that a euphemism for the jolla? | 00:39 |
| lbt | no :) | 00:39 |
| lbt | nemo is the open project which forms the foundation for jolla | 00:39 |
| lbt | it's the correct place to actually drive the direction of the middleware | 00:39 |
| benthorben | do you have a flowchart? we have mer, we have nemo and sailfish... | 00:40 |
| lbt | mm ... that's about it :) | 00:40 |
| lbt | + a kernel | 00:40 |
| benthorben | but I'm not sure which is which and what is inheriting from where | 00:40 |
| benthorben | and which is upstream and which is downstream | 00:40 |
| lbt | sailfish is a fairly thin layer on nemo | 00:40 |
| fk_lx | benthorben: only what sucks in Nemo (at least for now) is quality of collaboration - code/project drops etc. | 00:41 |
| lbt | most of sailfish is nemo/mer | 00:41 |
| lbt | so contributing to nemo will often get picked up in sailfish | 00:41 |
| fk_lx | benthorben: sad, but Nemo in the last year started to be a bit like Tizen in that sense | 00:41 |
| special | fk_lx: that seems like a very inaccurate complaint. | 00:42 |
| lbt | well - the main problem is that many nemo devs now work in jolla | 00:42 |
| fk_lx | special: I have right to have my own opinions | 00:42 |
| benthorben | nemo is middleware, mer is the "distribution" in a sense and sailfish is the closed source stuff more or less specific to the jolla? | 00:42 |
| special | which instances of codedrops are you referring to? there were some social-related packages, the settings framework sort of happened that way, anything else? | 00:43 |
| lbt | well, sailfish is mer+nemo+some closed bits | 00:43 |
| benthorben | 00:40:48 lbt | sailfish is a fairly thin layer on nemo │ cxl000 | 00:43 |
| lbt | special: our people probably should spend more time on freenode than we do | 00:43 |
| fk_lx | special: I could mention more, but it seems quite late | 00:43 |
| lbt | benthorben: :P | 00:43 |
| special | lbt: that would be a very valid complaint, yes | 00:43 |
| lbt | failry small delta | 00:43 |
| lbt | special: I'm trying to talk more in #libhybris | 00:44 |
| lbt | but I barely talk in here even :) | 00:44 |
| fk_lx | lbt: I've notcied | 00:44 |
| benthorben | so. was my complaint about signon actually relevant to nemo or to mer? | 00:44 |
| lbt | fk_lx: just busy | 00:44 |
| fk_lx | lbt: that you talk on libhybris much | 00:44 |
| fk_lx | lbt: what you think and what you are doing - I appreciate that | 00:45 |
| lbt | benthorben: the signon stuff is layered into nemo afaik | 00:45 |
| fk_lx | lbt: but you are probably one of a few | 00:45 |
| lbt | benthorben: and I'm not sure if my phrasing is great - I'm really trying to help/encourage what you're doing | 00:45 |
| fk_lx | lbt: that sees the problem | 00:45 |
| fk_lx | anyway, time for me, it's almost 2 AM here | 00:46 |
| fk_lx | cya | 00:46 |
| benthorben | here as well | 00:46 |
| lbt | g'night | 00:46 |
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| lbt | benthorben: do yell if you want to do anything in that area | 00:46 |
| benthorben | "that area" meaning? | 00:46 |
| lbt | securing services/keychain stuff | 00:47 |
| special | we'd be happy to abuse you :> | 00:47 |
| lbt | oh yeah | 00:47 |
| benthorben | uh. if I've learned anything about security it's that it's incredibly hard to to right and laughably easy to break even when you think you thought of everything | 00:48 |
| benthorben | that's not quite a "challenge accepted" unfortunately | 00:48 |
| lbt | yes - but doing it in nemo and discussing it openly is a good start | 00:48 |
| lbt | fwiw fetchmail stores creds in a cleartext file with 600 type perms | 00:49 |
| lbt | but the challenges with mobile apps make that different | 00:49 |
| lbt | things | 00:49 |
| benthorben | I only use fetchmail with on-demand passphrases for that reason | 00:49 |
| lbt | I have fetchmail running on a VM :) | 00:50 |
| lbt | so there are many approaches to isolation | 00:50 |
| benthorben | (OT: awwwww, I've found a git repo with automated commit messages in $HOME! I like!) | 00:50 |
| lbt | hehe | 00:50 |
| lbt | and rsync of course | 00:51 |
| lbt | for proper backups | 00:51 |
| benthorben | ugh. that reminds me, I desperately need to migrate that vserver of mine | 00:52 |
| * lbt always says hetzner when people mention vservices | 00:52 | |
| lbt | they have been awesome with merproject | 00:52 |
| benthorben | but back on topic. I'd like to introduce a different approach to the whole debate about how to store passwords/credentials | 00:53 |
| lbt | happy to listen | 00:54 |
| benthorben | we already noted how we'd ideally need a service running with a dedicated uid/gid in a sort of jail | 00:54 |
| benthorben | so, why not remove the whole "credential storage service" thing which is a huge security nightmare anyways... and put each service/application into its own jail | 00:55 |
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| benthorben | where we have a standardized directory format (suitably locked down) where each application puts its sensitive data | 00:56 |
| lbt | android sandboxes apps and that's on the cards for the future for apps; extending it to services... ok | 00:56 |
| benthorben | the point is: you don't have that security (and potential PR) nightmare of a central credential store any more | 00:57 |
| benthorben | locking down file system permissions on the other hand is a technology that has been mature for decades | 00:57 |
| benthorben | it's indeed similar to how android does things, at least where dedicated pids are concerned | 00:59 |
| benthorben | s/pid/uid/ | 00:59 |
| lbt | most desktops run services under their own uid too | 00:59 |
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| benthorben | or if you don't want to give up the convenience of every program/service running as "nemo", you might be able to restrict yourself to dedicated gids. then you do chmod 060 on your sensible data instead | 01:03 |
| lbt | any isolation need an API and a policy manager | 01:04 |
| * benthorben is idly wondering how much overhead fuse introduces | 01:04 | |
| lbt | use it - optimise later | 01:05 |
| benthorben | you could also go ahead and introduce plan9-like per-program namespaces using fuse. | 01:05 |
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| benthorben | then you go ahead and check if the access request to the file comes from the single, authorized binary | 01:06 |
| lbt | most anything from plan9 is good :) | 01:06 |
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| benthorben | I concur :) | 01:06 |
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| benthorben | you wouldn't even need to have 1 filesystem per service. a single one would suffice, given that the "origin check" can be made to work | 01:07 |
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| benthorben | you can throw out all weird APIs and complicated services... everyone knows how to read a file with a password in it | 01:10 |
| benthorben | everyone => every program | 01:10 |
| benthorben | but every program only get's their unique password file, thanks to fuse magic | 01:10 |
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| lbt | I need to find where jolla's security docs are too | 01:14 |
| lbt | anyhow ... looking at the time I gotta go | 01:14 |
| lbt | it's worth talking more about this and maybe prototyping it - even on-device | 01:15 |
| benthorben | i've written fuse filesystems before | 01:15 |
| benthorben | although it's been a while | 01:15 |
| benthorben | btw, are there any restrictions as to toolchains or programming eco systems? | 01:16 |
| benthorben | (policy-wise) | 01:17 |
| lbt | nothing is cast in stone | 01:17 |
| lbt | needlessly adding technology areas brings cost | 01:17 |
| * benthorben is rather fond of go, but the binaries tend to be rather large | 01:17 | |
| lbt | technologies with a smaller user base are also harder to resource for | 01:18 |
| lbt | both commercially and community | 01:18 |
| benthorben | so no scheme then... shame | 01:19 |
| lbt | having isolated components using a given system is more acceptable but it would be wiser to stick to established ones where possible | 01:20 |
| lbt | I think something is written in prolog | 01:20 |
| benthorben | is there some sort of relevant project-overview | 01:20 |
| benthorben | DAFUQ? (May be more answers.) | 01:20 |
| lbt | http://gitweb.merproject.org/gitweb/ | 01:21 |
| lbt | list of core tech | 01:21 |
| lbt | check the wiki too | 01:21 |
| benthorben | but now I NEED to know what part is written in prolog | 01:21 |
| benthorben | otherwise I won't be able to sleep | 01:21 |
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| lbt | I'll tell you next time ... g'night :D | 01:22 |
| benthorben | found it | 01:26 |
| benthorben | https://github.com/nemomobile/policy-settings-basic | 01:26 |
| benthorben | good night :) | 01:26 |
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| benthorben | good $timeofday | 10:34 |
| sledges | glocaltime | 10:35 |
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| kaltsi | lbt, Stskeeps; please check/approve.. helps sdk build & deploy case | 10:42 |
| kaltsi | http://review.merproject.org/#q,status:open,n,z | 10:42 |
| kaltsi | sorry (more coffee) http://review.merproject.org/#change,1651 | 10:43 |
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| lbt | just until we sanitise git handling - is it in gitpkg format? | 10:43 |
| lbt | it looks like :) | 10:44 |
| kaltsi | no.. it is a gitweb patch | 10:44 |
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| lbt | :/ | 10:52 |
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| kaltsi | well that's the documented way to contribute to mer | 11:02 |
| kaltsi | https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Contribution_in_detail | 11:02 |
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| Uninstall | kaltsi: I can't understand what your macro is useful for | 11:08 |
| kaltsi | Uninstall: in our sdk usage case we have a case where we 'deploy by installing binaries' .. not by installing an rpm.. but we still use the spec file and rpmbuild to build the project | 11:08 |
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| kaltsi | in that case it's unnecessary to let rpmbuild do 'duplicate files checking' and other rpm package file validation because we are not actually building an rpm out of it | 11:09 |
| kaltsi | the patch makes rpmbuild stop after 'make install' has been run for the makefile | 11:09 |
| Uninstall | ok | 11:10 |
| Uninstall | cool | 11:10 |
| Uninstall | and what about this: [rpmbuild] Fix simultaneous build-in-place and target opts for rpmbuild case ? | 11:10 |
| kaltsi | that's already accepted.. the --build-in-place was implemented earlier but there was a bug in the implementation so that if --build-in-place and --target=i486-meego-linux (for example) options were given at the same time, it would actually not build anything | 11:11 |
| Uninstall | ok cool | 11:12 |
| kaltsi | so you were able to only give --build-in-place or --target option but not both | 11:12 |
| Uninstall | ok | 11:12 |
| kaltsi | in practice these options are used by the 'mb2' script | 11:12 |
| Uninstall | ok | 11:13 |
| Uninstall | kaltsi: if you want to improve further rpm I think we should move to a more recent version | 11:14 |
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| kaltsi | how far behind are we from upstream I wonder | 11:18 |
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| Uninstall | kaltsi: fedora has rpm 4.11 | 11:20 |
| kaltsi | all right good to know.. I'm a bit afraid that switching rpm version might introduce packaging failures, but that's just a guess | 11:24 |
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| lbt | kaltsi: the pkgkit git tree has upstream in it ... :P | 11:25 |
| kaltsi | pkgkit? | 11:27 |
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| Uninstall | kaltsi: lbt: I think that I would stick to openSUSE 12.3 or 13.1 libzypp, zypper and rpm versions | 11:31 |
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| Uninstall | by the way our version is 4.9.1.2 while openSUSE 12.3 has 4.10.2 | 11:33 |
| Uninstall | and openSUSE 13.1 has 4.11.1 | 11:34 |
| Uninstall | libzypp in 12.3 is 12.9.0 and in 13.1 is 13.8.1 | 11:34 |
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| Uninstall | last of the 12 series is 12.16.3 | 11:40 |
| benthorben | lbt, special: I just created this post about the password issue: https://together.jolla.com/question/16259/credential-storage-security-issues/ | 11:40 |
| lbt | I think calling it a PR disaster is inflamatory and not likely to lead to positive discussion :/ | 11:42 |
| lbt | Uninstall: we need to push on with that stuff | 11:43 |
| lbt | benthorben: incidentally #jollamobile is better for jolla specific stuff like that | 11:43 |
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| Uninstall | lbt: 12.16.3 should be really stable I think and we are already using libzypp 12.x | 11:46 |
| benthorben | lbt: thanks, toned it down a bit | 11:46 |
| lbt | ty .. much better | 11:46 |
| Uninstall | lbt: In the meantime I've been also working on connman update too... there are some patches that they don't apply anymore and I would like to have some help by someone who is a connman "expert" | 11:48 |
| lbt | Uninstall: yeah - rare breed | 11:48 |
| Uninstall | lbt: who's the best guy to ask to? | 11:48 |
| lbt | lpotter: ^^ | 11:50 |
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| Uninstall | ok, cool | 11:51 |
| Uninstall | lbt: just one last thing, that is a bit unrealted to mer but sill important for me... | 11:52 |
| Uninstall | lbt: have you any experience with armv5tel? | 11:52 |
| Uninstall | several mer packages don't build with it | 11:52 |
| lbt | I'm unlikely to be able to tell you anything you don't know | 11:52 |
| Uninstall | including gmp, pcre, ppl and libzypp :/ | 11:52 |
| lbt | if it's getting blocking then a summary to the ml may be useful to absorb it | 11:53 |
| Uninstall | I don't want to annoy mer community with that problem... we are not building mer for it... | 11:54 |
| Uninstall | oh, right, one last thing... where are Qt 5.2 spec files? | 11:56 |
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| lbt | w00t: ^^ | 12:04 |
| lbt | mer:qt:devel I think | 12:04 |
| w00t | https://github.com/mer-qt/ is the temporary home while it's being shaped up (warning, things may still explode plenty, this stuff isn't what i'd call anywhere near release quality yet) | 12:05 |
| Uninstall | w00t: any known huge problem? | 12:06 |
| w00t | Uninstall: well, until yesterday, (and what will be 5.2.1), qtdeclarative couldn't really start any non-trivial applications reliably due to https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-35917 | 12:08 |
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| Uninstall | that looks pretty bad | 12:10 |
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| sledges | Uninstall: did the link i found not help on your armv5tel problem ? | 12:17 |
| sledges | it had exactly your problem addressed in it | 12:18 |
| Uninstall | sledges: I didn't see it | 12:18 |
| sledges | right | 12:19 |
| Uninstall | let me check | 12:19 |
| sledges | http://www.merproject.org/logs/%23mer/%23mer.2014-01-15.log.html#t2014-01-15T19:21:14 | 12:19 |
| Uninstall | sledges: thanks ;) I have quassel :) | 12:20 |
| sledges | that's brilliant :) | 12:20 |
| Uninstall | http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=46563 <-- I've already checked this page several times | 12:20 |
| Merbot` | gcc.gnu.org bug 46563 in driver "link with -lgcc when creating a shared lib" [Normal,Resolved: invalid] | 12:21 |
| Uninstall | sledges: by the way I was already building libzypp with CFLAGS="$RPM_OPT_FLAGS -lgcc -lgcc_s" | 12:21 |
| Uninstall | https://tvheadend.org/boards/5/topics/2876?page=1&r=2921 <-- I didn't see anything useful here | 12:23 |
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| sledges | 'undefined reference' is not 'hidden symbol' though.. | 12:23 |
| Uninstall | all that __sync functions where available since a long time and MeeGo used to build for armv5tel | 12:25 |
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| sledges | then its worth sourcing a different compiler | 12:27 |
| sledges | or another path is to dig deeper into your current compiler/linker behaviour (using approaches dotted around an (unrelated) article: http://honeypod.blogspot.co.uk/2007/12/shared-library-hello-world-for-android.html ) | 12:28 |
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| Uninstall | w00t: I don't see any .spec there... (https://github.com/mer-qt/) | 13:25 |
| w00t | Uninstall: check the mer-* branches | 13:27 |
| w00t | rpm/ subdir | 13:27 |
| w00t | placement/presentation is not final, just for ease of hacking | 13:27 |
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| Uninstall | ok | 13:28 |
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| Uninstall | thank you :) | 13:31 |
| w00t | np | 13:31 |
| w00t | poke me if you've more questions | 13:31 |
| Uninstall | sure | 13:32 |
| Uninstall | w00t: I have an unrleated question about a topic I'm really looking for some help... | 13:32 |
| Uninstall | w00t: do you have any experience with armv5tel? | 13:32 |
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| w00t | Uninstall: none at all | 13:34 |
| Uninstall | ok | 13:34 |
| Uninstall | thank you anyway | 13:35 |
| Uninstall | :) | 13:35 |
| w00t | lowest I've gone was v6, and that was a brief time hacking around an rpi | 13:35 |
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| Uninstall | w00t: how are we going to deal with qreal ABI change? | 13:52 |
| w00t | Uninstall: it went in too late for sailfish at least (SDK was already published before they made up their minds and got it integrated), so we're not changing | 13:53 |
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| Uninstall | w00t: what are they going to do other distros? | 13:54 |
| w00t | I think they're mostly in the process of dealing with it now, so I don't know if there's solid conclusion | 13:55 |
| Uninstall | I cannot really understand how they've came up with a similar change... | 13:56 |
| w00t | hm? | 14:00 |
| Uninstall | that is a really bad idea I think | 14:02 |
| Uninstall | I can't see how things would improve with a double qreal on ARM | 14:02 |
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| w00t | Uninstall: well. the argument is that ARM hardware typically have ways to deal with double on hardware now, so the performance hit is gone (I'm not sure how true that _really_ is but...) and the other part to it is that having code work "differently" on desktop and not is bad, which I do agree with to some extent. | 14:39 |
| w00t | I still personally don't think it was the right thing to do, given that there's supposedly no ABI changes introduced between major releases | 14:40 |
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| Uninstall | w00t: sure | 15:25 |
| Uninstall | w00t: I think that in our private OBS we are going to build 5.2 only on arm*hl with qreal=double | 15:26 |
| Uninstall | but before we have to run some benchmarks I think | 15:27 |
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| CosmoHill | moo | 19:32 |
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| benthorben | are notification services (such as twitter or xmpp) in sailfish taken from mer or is this part of the proprietary layer? | 22:05 |
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| meShell | maybe you mean Telepathy? | 22:41 |
| meShell | dbus-monitor | grep Telepathy | 22:41 |
| meShell | http://alban-apinc.blogspot.de/2011/12/d-bus-traffic-pattern-with-telepathy.html | 22:41 |
| sledges | meShell: nearly | 22:50 |
| sledges | benthorben: https://github.com/nemomobile-packages/telepathy-gabble | 22:50 |
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| CosmoHill | dag winfriedd | 22:52 |
| winfriedd | Hallo | 22:52 |
| sledges | \o | 22:52 |
| CosmoHill | hoe gaat ie? | 22:52 |
| CosmoHill | (I might not understand your answer :/ ) | 22:53 |
| winfriedd | Fine, | 22:53 |
| winfriedd | you know me ? | 22:53 |
| CosmoHill | nope | 22:53 |
| sledges | CosmoHill works for NSA | 22:53 |
| winfriedd | Then he must know me :-) | 22:53 |
| CosmoHill | I've got notepads filled with erm well, notes! | 22:53 |
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| sledges | or pads | 22:54 |
| CosmoHill | that would explain why I have one under each corner of the computer | 22:54 |
| CosmoHill | sledges: how are you? | 22:56 |
| sledges | heya CosmoHill , not too bad, MOT due | 22:57 |
| sledges | and you? | 22:57 |
| CosmoHill | I'm alright thanks. not done much this week. Looking at a trolly jack | 22:58 |
| CosmoHill | both my cars failed their MOT first time | 22:58 |
| sledges | well, take off the airfreshners from the rear view mirrors :) | 22:58 |
| CosmoHill | it was odd having to pay to get the fiesta repairs to pass it's MOT before I'd even bought / paid for it | 22:59 |
| sledges | must have been worth it | 22:59 |
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| * sledges replaced fog and headlight, also treated old wound under the bumper - tiger seal does miracles | 23:00 | |
| CosmoHill | my left sideskirt is still hanging off, got ducttape on it to stop it scratching the door | 23:00 |
| sledges | but suspension problems might fail MOT still | 23:00 |
| sledges | ow | 23:00 |
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| sledges | ...and on the day 8 God invented cable ties :) | 23:01 |
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| CosmoHill | drift stitching! | 23:01 |
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| CosmoHill | hi ali1234 | 23:04 |
| ali1234 | hi | 23:04 |
| CosmoHill | I think I remember you from #meego | 23:04 |
| ali1234 | sure | 23:04 |
| CosmoHill | long hair? | 23:05 |
| ali1234 | no | 23:05 |
| CosmoHill | eh, everyone is the same height in text anyway | 23:05 |
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| ali1234 | i've been here the whole time, i just never part | 23:05 |
| CosmoHill | same | 23:06 |
| ali1234 | my machine just crashed because flash-plugin | 23:06 |
| CosmoHill | I lurk then chat bollocks before go back to lurking | 23:06 |
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| sledges | ali1234: incidentally i came across one of the chat logs from 2010 with you having an issue that one guy today had with n900 kernel adaptation :)) | 23:07 |
| ali1234 | oh? | 23:08 |
| ali1234 | i don't remember what that would have been, and i just lost my scrollback... | 23:08 |
| sledges | yup, a very simple though: Makefile fails due to colons in the pathname up to the kernel tree dir :)) | 23:08 |
| sledges | quite a scrollback :D | 23:08 |
| ali1234 | o_O | 23:08 |
| ali1234 | i vaguely remember something about that | 23:08 |
| ali1234 | and of course, OBS loves colons right? | 23:09 |
| sledges | http://ibot.rikers.org/%23meego/20110904.html.gz | 23:09 |
| sledges | so very much loves yes :D | 23:09 |
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| * CosmoHill has never seen a html page with a gz extension | 23:10 | |
| sledges | cannot be unseen now | 23:11 |
| CosmoHill | I was still in uni in 2010 so I could sleep / work whenever I wanted | 23:12 |
| sledges | ho-wow CosmoHill and you were there too! :D | 23:12 |
| CosmoHill | yeah, second line of the page :) | 23:12 |
| sledges | *9/2011 | 23:12 |
| CosmoHill | I joined #meego within the first few days | 23:12 |
| sledges | 'hose were the times ay | 23:13 |
| CosmoHill | aww, I've just see lcuk | 23:13 |
| sledges | and the rest of whole good crowd | 23:13 |
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| CosmoHill | since I got a job I seem to not do much in the evenings | 23:28 |
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| meShell | Getting Info from connman: dbus-send --system --dest=net.connman --print-reply / net.connman.Manager.GetServices | 23:29 |
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| sledges | yummy | 23:34 |
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