Wednesday, 2013-05-29

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martyone_hi, when MeeGo community OBS is down, where is mer-tool available from? Now I have http://repo.pub.meego.com/releases/Mer-Tools/7.1.0/builds/i486/packages/ in the output of `zypper lr`06:44
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dm8tbrthat's on mer wiki06:46
martyone_dm8tbr: ok, I will search it once more time :)06:46
chriadamhttp://repo.merproject.org/obs/mer-tools maybe06:46
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martyone_chriadam: exactly, thank you! :)06:47
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kontiomartyone_: https://build.merproject.org/project/show?project=mer-tools%3Adevel https://build.merproject.org/project/show?project=mer-tools%3Atesting https://build.merproject.org/project/show?project=mer-tools%3Astable are the "live" repos if you need bloody edge stuff, repo.merproject.org has snapshots...07:05
martyone_kontio: thanks :)07:07
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dcthangdont know why so it' not so many conversation here :-)07:46
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martyone_I am trying to fix wiki where repo.pub.meego.org etc. is referred. I am not sure how to fix the example .ks file here? https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Quality/Tutorials/Testing_with_SDK_to_VM08:03
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slainegood moaning08:23
sledgesmartyone_, change into http://repo.merproject.org/obs/mer-tools:/stable/latest_i486/ and so on08:23
sledges(find it via https://build.merproject.org/project/show?project=mer-tools%3Astable -> Repositories -> (arch) -> Go to download repository08:23
sledgeshello slaine :)08:24
slainemorning sledges08:24
sledgesmartyone_, same for mer-qa (from https://build.merproject.org/project/list_public )08:24
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martyone_sledges: but what about the other parts of the .ks file? is it all valid/up-to-date? wouldn't it be better to reffer to latest nemo vm .ks file as base?08:26
sledgessure martyone_ , you can do that with https://github.com/nemomobile/nemo-kickstarter-configs/08:27
martyone_sledges: ok, thanks08:30
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sledgesthanks for updating the wiki martyone08:57
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martyone:)08:58
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martyonesledges: wouldn't it be an option to add "Nemo Adaptation VM Testable" (Inherit: Nemo Adaptation VM) to nemo-kickstarter-configs, i.e., to provide ready-to-use testable VM image on http://releases.nemomobile.org/snapshots/images/ ?09:05
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sledgesmartyone, good point, please raise with Sage on #nemomobile09:33
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nwokihi guys, does anyone know where i can find the source code for the sailfish qt-creator?12:19
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lbtauri__: ^^12:22
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auri__nwoki: its still under dev and in a private repo12:33
nwokiah, ok. Thanks auri__12:34
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nwokiauri__: is the "build/deploy" plugin in a private repo as well?14:53
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auri__nwoki: I'm sorry.. I did not understand your question15:08
nwokiqt creator allows to customize plugins15:08
nwokithese plugins usually are made to build and or deploy to devices15:08
nwokifor example the harmattan build plugin15:09
nwokiusing the sailfish sdk, i can see that they have created their own15:09
nwokido you know if this is somewhat open sourced?15:09
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nwokithe part i'm interested in is building an app and deploying it to a VM as sailfish does15:10
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cybrNautis the Mer Project involved with Fairphone at all?15:10
auri__nwoki: the build/deploy mechanism is implemented by each plugin eg: the remotelinux plugin or the android plugin or the blackberry plugin15:10
auri__Similiarly the Mer plugin implements its own build and deploy for Mer devices15:11
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nwokiauri__: exactly, i wanted to take a look at that code15:12
auri__the Build/Deploy configurations are in ProjectExplorer plugin.. If you want to implement for a particular device, you can write a custom plugin.. inherit the required classes and override the required functions15:12
auri__nwoki: The remotelinux,a ndroid, blackberry are in qt-project .. so you can checkout from gitorious.. the Mer plugin is under active dev and hence in a private repo15:13
nwokik, thanks auri__ :)15:14
auri__nwoki: of course you can use the installers from sailfish.org too..15:15
auri__nwoki: https://sailfishos.org/develop.html15:15
auri__The qt creator taht is shipped with the SDK has the Mer plugin and you should be able to build/deploy to a mer device (Nemo/Sailfish etc.)15:16
nwokiyeah, i need to create my own so i wanted some base code to look at15:19
nwokithanks auri__15:19
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ajalkanecybrNaut: FairPhone is Android so I don't see how Mer would be involved15:42
cybrNautajalkane: it's such a blur to me.. sailfishos, firefoxos, tizen, ubuntu phone, replicant, mer.. they're all claiming to be an "open source" phone os, and some of them are working together.  And some of them run Android natively.. and some run Android in a VM15:44
Stskeepsand some uses the android HAL, some are based on android but different UI..15:45
Stskeepsin practice android HALs are the only way forward15:45
Stskeepson mobile devices but also much embedded15:45
ajalkaneMy understanding is that many of them use bottom layers of Android to get already existing Android drivers for the hardware15:45
Stskeepsit's really about where you stop and what your main system is, i guess15:46
Stskeepsi see android as a BSP framework that slipped into consumer hands by accident and grew, time to make it back to one15:46
Stskeeps:P15:46
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SpeedEvil:)16:19
SpeedEvilAlso, the mk* cpu phones of a comparable stripe to fairphone are $200 or so16:20
SpeedEvilRunning 4.216:20
SpeedEvilIt's questionable what their 'special sauce' brings to it.16:22
SpeedEvilhttp://dx.com/p/gfive-g9-mtk6589-quad-core-aliyun-2-0-wcdma-bar-phone-w-5-7-ips-hd-screen-wi-fi-and-gps-black-21309116:22
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SpeedEvil(is single sim)16:22
SpeedEvilOops - wrong one16:23
SpeedEvilhttp://dx.com/p/w100-mtk6589-quad-core-android-4-2-1-wcdma-bar-phone-w-4-5-qhd-wi-fi-and-gps-white-21534916:23
Stskeepsit's even crazier if you go to china and buy it..16:24
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SpeedEvilThe only interesting question to me about fairphone is that have they done anything special to get source.16:25
SpeedEvilOr is there source available for that class of phones.16:25
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vgrade_SpeedEvil: I was told recently that alcatel had released at least kernel source for those16:35
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vgrade_not checked though16:36
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cybrNautajalkane: i noticed fairphone.com states "We’re joining forces with open developer platforms like Ubuntu and FireFox to offer users the choice of OS upon purchase of the phone." - so even if a phone project cannot co-exist with an Android phone, there will be cooperation to encourage alternate OSs16:49
cybrNautthe Mer project should sign up for that16:50
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ajalkanecybrNaut: That's pretty great. I have no interest in FireFoxOS myself, but Sailfish and Ubuntu would be great16:59
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ajalkaneIf they offer Ubuntu or Sailfosh phones color me interested17:00
ajalkane* Sailfish17:00
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lbtFYI: rebooting mer OBS frontend17:05
lbtall done17:07
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SpeedEvilajalkane: It depends what they can bring to the table. If they are just an outfit that's realised they can buy 5000 phones without bootloader locks, and put AOSP + hacks on them - and sell them for twice what they bought them for - then it's questionable.17:11
ajalkaneSpeedEvil: If they bring open phones with Sailfish/Ubuntu  I don't care what hacks they've used (assuming the phones work)17:12
SpeedEvilI question how much they've done in opening the phone.17:12
SpeedEvilAt the lowest level this could be 'I read a thread on XDA that I can root them, and there is an AOSP build, let's make a website'.17:13
SpeedEvilOr it could be actually meaningful.17:13
SpeedEvilThat is - stuff that is not publically available.17:13
ajalkaneTrue that, and my cynical self is leaning on the former. But we'll see.17:14
SpeedEvilPart of my problem is that there is _way_ too much hype on the 'our aims' bit of the website.17:16
ajalkaneYeah I haven't actually looked at all to the FairPhone as it's Android. If it's confirmed to run Ubuntu or Sailfish I'll look at it more closely.17:17
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SpeedEvilThen there is the awkward issue it's exactly the same price as a nexus 4 16G17:21
CosmoHillthe Jolla phone>17:22
SpeedEvilNo - fairphone17:22
SpeedEvilhttp://buy-a-phone-start-a-movement.fairphone.com/en/fairphone-excl-charger.html17:22
SpeedEvilAnd the n4 comes with charger.17:23
CosmoHilltwo sim cards, double the features17:24
CosmoHilldoesn't work like that17:24
SpeedEvilQuite.17:24
SpeedEvil'other half double the features' :)17:24
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CosmoHilldouble the phone bill17:25
ajalkaneI have no trouble supporting phones ideology I approve of even if their specs are not as good as some mainstream phones.17:25
ajalkaneFor example I'd rather buy Jolla's phone than Nexus 4 even if the hardware is worse and cost 2 times as much17:25
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SpeedEvilQuite.17:26
ajalkaneIsn't the whole "fair-trade" movement quite like that anyway?17:27
SpeedEvilI would possibly rather just buy sailfish as an OS, for my n4.17:27
SpeedEvilThogh I have preordered.17:27
ajalkaneWell sure, me too... But I doubt it's going to go down like that, being able to buy Sailsfish to M417:28
ajalkane* N417:28
cybrNautSpeedEvil: when comparing a socially responsible product to a popular brand from a corporation that has shareholders to please, don't expect feature-for-feature to measure up17:29
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SpeedEvilcybrNaut: Well, yes.17:29
cybrNautFairphone is the first socially responsible phone to emerge since teh geekphone17:29
SpeedEvilcybrNaut: That assumes that I believe the 'socially responsible' aspect to be meaningful over what google does.17:30
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Stskeepsjolla's socially responsible too, help take care of the many laid off workers from nokia17:30
cybrNautof course, it's not just about the hardware capability, but the extent to which the user can actually use the product17:30
Stskeeps:P17:30
cybrNautthe statement “If you can’t open it, you don’t own it.” appears on fairphone.com's site.17:31
SpeedEvilStatements are really quite easy to write.17:32
cybrNautSpeedEvil: google is about pleasing shareholders.. which obviously compromises such a philosophy17:32
ajalkaneI find writing statements the hardest part :)17:32
cybrNautSpeedEvil: not for google17:32
cybrNautif any other phone maker were to put that statement on their site, they would be expected to own up to it17:32
SpeedEvilWhat statement?17:33
cybrNaut“If you can’t open it, you don’t own it.”17:33
SpeedEvilThat statement is almost so vague as to be meaningless.17:33
cybrNautnonsense17:33
cybrNautit's quite clear17:34
cybrNautroot access is blocked on all but 2 phones at the moment17:34
SpeedEvilI will, for example, bet large amounts of money that the wifi and bluetooth chip code is not open, nor is the GSM modem17:34
cybrNautSpeedEvil: then you don't own it17:34
SpeedEvilOn the fairphone17:34
cybrNautSpeedEvil: sure, if something is closed on the fairphone, then you don't own it, and they would be falling short of their own vision17:35
ajalkaneYeah I bet the usual suspect are as closed as in any other phone. Ie. graphics card drivers, maybe WiFI/GSM code17:35
SpeedEvilIt is extremely questionable if from a software POV - it's any opener than a n417:36
ajalkane* usual suspects. I write badly tonight.17:36
ajalkaneOpening those blobs requires much bigger muscles than a smalltime player like FairPhone17:36
cybrNautajalkane: fairphone isn't working alone17:37
SpeedEvilI question that they are actually a player at all - it looks to me like a phone simply purchased from a chinese vendor.17:37
cybrNautajalkane: they have Mozilla17:37
cybrNautand the ubuntu project, along with a few others17:37
ajalkaneMozilla is not a big muscle with money and influence to throw around17:37
ajalkaneI'm agreeing with SpeedEvil, they're buying from chinese OEM (just like Jolla) and doing as much as they can to keep it open17:38
cybrNautajalkane: driver writing is not too complex for Mozilla17:38
ajalkaneOf course they can prove my cynical expectations wrong17:38
ajalkaneReverse engineering hardware is not something you do by weekend. Mozilla has lots of other things to do. I don't believe them reverse engineering the hardware.17:39
cybrNautajalkane: the most commercial products out there often have drivers that were produced by a man in China who started with a generic driver and just hacked it until it worked17:39
cybrNautdrivers are cheap.. it's why you saw so many BSoDs on windows17:39
ajalkaneI don't believe in this. I'm happy if I'm shown otherwise.17:40
cybrNautajalkane: in the states, hardware is often /free/, with a cheap driver.17:40
cybrNautor is should say, free driver.. was cheap to develop17:41
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Stskeepsfacts of life in mobile: modem firmware is closed source, 3d drivers are either closed source or a RPC call wrapper to a remote processor, x11 is dead and no, you can't have a driver for it17:42
cybrNautit's really about motivation.  If hardware comes with a closed source driver, OSS developers are unmotivated.17:42
cybrNautbut if a driver is outright missing, and necessary to make a piece of hardware work, the OSS community steps up17:42
Stskeepsoh and did you want the binaries for glibc? no! we only provide for bionic?17:42
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cybrNauti have the source code for a video capture card driver, where the hardware maker flipped the OSS community the bird17:47
cybrNautPlextor would not cooperate, yet some basement developer could produce source code for a working driver17:47
SpeedEvilReverse engineering some parts is extremely challenging.17:49
SpeedEvilAnd - fundamentally going forward may not get you anything if bootloader locking gets done right.17:49
SpeedEvilThat's in some ways the more important fight.17:49
SpeedEvilBootloaders that are unlockable due to a bug are one of the biggest risks to software freedom out there.17:50
lbtStskeeps: when installing a new systemd unit which links to a .wants ... is it supposed to start automatically on daemon-reload?17:50
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SpeedEvilBecause they mean that people who would otherwise purchase unlocked devices buy locked ones and unroot them - meaning there is no market for unlocked devices.17:51
Stskeepslbt: unsure17:51
lbtwill ask17:52
cybrNauthere's an open source bt driver => http://sourceforge.net/projects/hciusb/files/17:52
SpeedEvilDriver is not BT chip firmware.17:52
SpeedEvilThere were on the n900 for example around a dozen microprocessors.17:53
SpeedEvilIn terms of seperate cores, able to execute their own stored programs.17:53
SpeedEvilThree of these were open, and had source available17:54
lbtStskeeps: no :)17:55
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sledgesahh finished backing up from COBS22:18
sledges:)22:18
sledgesjust in time! vgrade_ hope you won't loose any of your precious HAs :)22:19
sledgesg'nite22:20
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* lbt notes http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Preset/ is interesting when it comes to package installation of services23:32
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