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| situ | Morning | 05:04 |
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| JunJi | keeps, are you awake? | 05:11 |
| JunJi | keeps -> Stskeeps | 05:11 |
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| Stskeeps | JunJi: sortof | 05:35 |
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| niqt | morning | 07:52 |
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| blackjack4it | hi all, I'm wondering how to get Mer start on a Xperia Mini Pro with unlocked bootloader..any helper around? | 08:11 |
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| Stskeeps | crevetor: pin | 09:42 |
| Stskeeps | g | 09:42 |
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| Sindriava | Hey guys! :) | 09:53 |
| Sindriava | Just a quick question -- Are there any screenshots available? | 09:54 |
| Nicd- | mer is just a linux stack without a UI | 09:55 |
| Sindriava | Oooh... | 09:55 |
| Nicd- | what would you take a screenshot of? | 09:55 |
| Sindriava | I have been mislead | 09:55 |
| Sindriava | Nicd-: Sorry, I mistook it with the Sailfish OS :D | 09:55 |
| Sindriava | Wrong channel | 09:55 |
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| Sindriava | Aaanyways, I like what you're doing! | 09:56 |
| Sindriava | See ya :) | 09:57 |
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| martyone | hi, any hint/recommended way to provide patches to VALA source files? I mean when the source bundle contains generated .c files and VALA compiler is not supposed to be run. | 10:17 |
| Stskeeps | ugh | 10:17 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:17 |
| Stskeeps | make a remark that it's like that i guess | 10:17 |
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| martyone | Stskeeps: I agree :-\ | 10:27 |
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| crevetor | Stskeeps: pong | 13:52 |
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| ali1234 | martyone: what package is that? i thought most packages do run vala compiler... i see people complaining that they want to patch the C files and can't find the matching vala all the time | 13:56 |
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| martyone | ali1234: it is CE:MW:Shared/tracker | 14:22 |
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| Stskeeps | shmerl: so, use of android adaptations, ubuntu's way, sailfish way, etc, could you remind me of the topic? | 20:32 |
| shmerl | That was mostly my worry that Ubuntu aren't going to push for more Wayland compatible drivers. | 20:33 |
| shmerl | Since they just rely on Android ones. | 20:34 |
| Stskeeps | they're probably not, no - in practice, we're way past the point where we can ask for x11 adaptations in many chipsets | 20:34 |
| Stskeeps | and to get there again, or for wayland, we need volume to convince vendors | 20:34 |
| shmerl | What kind of drivers can Wayland rely on? Let's say some vendor writes Wayland dedicated driver. What is it? DRI2 or something else? | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | it doesn't really, but the problem is that SoC vendors don't really give a shit about non-android :) | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | they're not going to spend time on anything non-android | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | wayland's theoretically just another windowing system and buffer sharing method | 20:36 |
| shmerl | Stskeeps: They didn't care about Linux on the desktop as well (it was Windows only). It took long pains to improve that. | 20:36 |
| Stskeeps | like surfaceflinger is with binder and it's buffer sharing | 20:36 |
| Stskeeps | you can do wayland on top of libhybris | 20:36 |
| Stskeeps | on top of android gpu drivers | 20:37 |
| shmerl | Stskeeps: But Wayland has some requirements for driver architecture? | 20:37 |
| RaYmAn | There is a chance that if these OS with the libhybrid approach catches on, evntually OEM's will start pushing for better drivers without android layer | 20:37 |
| Stskeeps | not really | 20:37 |
| shmerl | I.e. if not Android, how can Wayland compatible driver look like? | 20:37 |
| Stskeeps | just some handy extensions | 20:37 |
| Stskeeps | as an example, qml compositor can do 'wayland' without actually having wayland drivers | 20:37 |
| Stskeeps | if there's a way to share buffers | 20:37 |
| shmerl | I thought the main problem with android is the degraded support of libc. | 20:38 |
| shmerl | I.e. bionic is considered crippled and all you can do is to dance around that. | 20:38 |
| shmerl | Even with libhybris you just mask the fact. | 20:38 |
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| shmerl | So ideally you'd prefer drivers which aren't built on bionic. | 20:39 |
| Stskeeps | sure | 20:40 |
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| Stskeeps | but we cant afford that luxury atm | 20:40 |
| RaYmAn | It would be interesting if we could get android drivers built for glibc from some vendor | 20:41 |
| shmerl | Stskeeps: What about those manufacturers which do produce them, like Nvidia? They were interested in moving to DRI2, but are lagging behind | 20:41 |
| RaYmAn | at least as a test | 20:41 |
| shmerl | My worry is that if Canonical, Jolla and others are going to give up because "it's hard" - it's for sure won't happen ever. | 20:42 |
| shmerl | On the desktop luckily distros pushed hard for drivers. | 20:43 |
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| shmerl | RaYmAn: I think Android depends on bionic quite strongly. I'm not sure if you can just plug glibc there instead. | 20:44 |
| Stskeeps | you can't, really :P | 20:45 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: personally i know the field right now.. you can't stay competitive if you have to rely on non-android drivers | 20:45 |
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| RaYmAn | I suspect someone has to prove there actually is a market for all these linux based OS (apart from android) before any vendors start listening | 20:45 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: libhybris is called exactly that because it commits hubris against the current status quo of hw adaptations | 20:45 |
| Stskeeps | and it's not the thing we really want to do, but is put in a situation where it's needed | 20:46 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:46 |
| shmerl | Stskeeps: Should Jolla start making their own SoCs to fix that?-) | 20:46 |
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| Stskeeps | shmerl: yeah, if we had that kind of money.. | 20:46 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:46 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: my own future stacks revolve around libhybris because that's what you get when you speak to ODM | 20:47 |
| Stskeeps | s | 20:47 |
| shmerl | May be, some day. | 20:47 |
| Stskeeps | you get an android adaptation | 20:47 |
| shmerl | Stskeeps: What if Nvidia will move to Wayland on the desktop? | 20:47 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: won't really matter | 20:47 |
| shmerl | They most probably will start supporting it with Tegra too. | 20:48 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: this is embedded people used to use directfb too | 20:48 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:48 |
| Stskeeps | , | 20:48 |
| shmerl | Sometiems it feels like Google really screwed things up. | 20:48 |
| Stskeeps | we let them, tbh | 20:49 |
| Stskeeps | android's biggest win was that it managed to unify all the BSPs many different SoC vendors had | 20:49 |
| Stskeeps | and people were more busy in OSS mobile camp about fighting about gpl vs bsd vs deb vs emacs vs rpm | 20:50 |
| shmerl | I think still one shouldn't just give up on working with hw manufacturers. | 20:50 |
| shmerl | You just need to find ones which will agree to work with it. | 20:50 |
| Stskeeps | let's start by making them have sailfish as part of their offerings | 20:50 |
| shmerl | Sure | 20:50 |
| Stskeeps | and i've tried to be idealistic about this before, personally, but it really comes down to $$ and reality | 20:51 |
| Stskeeps | if you want to make a device and sell it at a reasonable price that people actually want, you do not get the luxury of making demands | 20:51 |
| shmerl | There is also another thing - open source drivers improving. | 20:51 |
| shmerl | At some point they might hit. | 20:51 |
| Stskeeps | freedreno and such? | 20:51 |
| shmerl | Yep. Do you think that will matter? | 20:52 |
| Stskeeps | patent minefield for anybody who dares to commercialize using it | 20:52 |
| Stskeeps | there's a lot of implicit patent grants you get with the blobs | 20:52 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:52 |
| shmerl | It's a bit more tricky. If they'll start to be competitive, hw manufacturers might start backing them up. | 20:52 |
| shmerl | So patent issues will be defended. | 20:53 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. and then we have arm or mali refusing to ship to them.. | 20:53 |
| shmerl | I mean if they aren't stupid. | 20:53 |
| shmerl | But many are ;) | 20:53 |
| * Fosus lurks chat interested | 20:53 | |
| Morpog_Mobile | So whats intel doing? Are they going for non-android drivers to sell their soc's? | 20:54 |
| Stskeeps | Morpog_Mobile: even intel uses blobs though and wayland matters in some of their markets | 20:54 |
| shmerl | Intel seems to be lagging too much. Even with their Atoms. | 20:54 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: i don't like the state of things but the practical impact is that the biggest market entry blocker for any non-android system is the fact you have to find good hardware adaptation for it | 20:54 |
| shmerl | I don't really get what their problem is. | 20:54 |
| Morpog_Mobile | Latest atom offerings seem fine | 20:55 |
| shmerl | Stskeeps: I agree. Same story was with hw support in early Linux days. | 20:55 |
| shmerl | Too much Windows only stuff. | 20:55 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: half a year ago, i was even looking into mer on top of bionic as i could see the writing on the wall | 20:55 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: sure, but now it's the stupid situation it's linux vs linux :) | 20:56 |
| shmerl | Yeah, that's why I even say Android shouldn't be called Linux ;) | 20:56 |
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| shmerl | Formally saying it is of course. | 20:56 |
| Fosus | Do you guys think ARM laptops with linux could succeed? | 20:57 |
| Fosus | Like Samsung Chromebook 3 | 20:57 |
| * Fosus is drooling for that one | 20:57 | |
| Fosus | not so much into chromeOS tho | 20:57 |
| Stskeeps | Fosus: once they string up whoever designed libre/openoffice impress and makes the damn thing usable.. | 20:58 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: but anyway, the use of android drivers is simply due to simple need by now | 20:59 |
| shmerl | Stskeeps: I'm OK with Jolla pushing for libhybris as a "works now" solution, if the global goal of enabling normal drivers isn't dropped for the long term. | 20:59 |
| shmerl | (Same goes for Canonical). | 20:59 |
| Stskeeps | there's a lot of political fights that can be done, but at the moment, the most important is a non-android one | 20:59 |
| Stskeeps | and not just a copy of what android does, or a shell on top of android | 21:00 |
| Stskeeps | we loose this fight and it's game over | 21:00 |
| shmerl | Right | 21:00 |
| shmerl | In this sense Firefox OS is doing a good thing too. | 21:00 |
| Stskeeps | firefox os is a shell on top of android, but they do run on other OS'es | 21:01 |
| shmerl | Even though they reuse Android drivers as well. | 21:01 |
| Stskeeps | i'm for firefox 'os' app runtime, but i'm not a fan of the OS itself | 21:01 |
| shmerl | It servers the purpose you stated - "a non-android" (offering) | 21:01 |
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| shmerl | I mean - just adds diversity. | 21:02 |
| Stskeeps | sure | 21:02 |
| Stskeeps | but it also takes android out of an area it kinda don't want to be in, fragmentative low end phones | 21:02 |
| Stskeeps | it makes developers unhappy, users unhappy.. | 21:02 |
| shmerl | Which is interesting, since JavaScript on low end sounds a bit scary. | 21:03 |
| * lbt looks around and tries to recall his mer-ish task list | 21:03 | |
| ali1234 | Stskeeps: i think you worry too much about "winning" :) | 21:03 |
| shmerl | I think it means here simply getting traction. | 21:04 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: i should really go back to playing civilization.. | 21:04 |
| ali1234 | i prefer minecraft | 21:05 |
| ali1234 | if you "win" the game... it just tells you to go outside | 21:05 |
| Stskeeps | hehe | 21:06 |
| shmerl | Just red an article about dwarf fortress :) | 21:07 |
| * Stskeeps is looking forward to getting back to his home office to hack, hack hack | 21:07 | |
| shmerl | It says - loosing is fun ;) | 21:07 |
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| Stskeeps | but anyway, we're now in a situation where we might actually have a shot at making sane non-android devices | 21:10 |
| Stskeeps | without having to resort to redoing all our software to fit on top of android's build system | 21:10 |
| ali1234 | was the build system ever a problem? | 21:11 |
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| shmerl | ali1234: Collabora tried to port some regular Linux stuff to Android build system. It was a pain. | 21:11 |
| Stskeeps | well, maybe not build system (sorry, bit late here) | 21:12 |
| shmerl | Huge pain as I'veheard. | 21:12 |
| ali1234 | i'm sure it would be difficult to do that way | 21:12 |
| ali1234 | that's why some compatibility layer makes sense | 21:12 |
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| Stskeeps | let's see where everything ends up anyway.. | 21:15 |
| Stskeeps | i can see firefox os's app runtime becoming the standard html5 runtime for linux distros | 21:15 |
| Stskeeps | as it can run at a large bunch of targets | 21:15 |
| ali1234 | when you say "distros" | 21:16 |
| Stskeeps | systems? | 21:16 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:16 |
| Stskeeps | that it happens to run on phones and have a OS UI around it is one thing | 21:16 |
| ali1234 | i can't see traditional distro users even caring about html5 apps | 21:16 |
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| Stskeeps | well | 21:17 |
| shmerl | Stskeeps: That would be great. Then it'll be supported across all systems. Kind of bad time for webOS and Tizen :) | 21:17 |
| Stskeeps | i have my opinions about that | 21:17 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:17 |
| Stskeeps | (traditional distros) | 21:17 |
| ali1234 | neither QML not the gnome thing either | 21:17 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: personally i would have liked webos to do it, as it's qt, and webkit, but they're not playing their cards right | 21:18 |
| Stskeeps | tizen.. do i need to say flora software license? | 21:18 |
| Stskeeps | and EFL/UIFW | 21:18 |
| ali1234 | flora? | 21:18 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 21:18 |
| Stskeeps | apache license but you only get the patents if you're a certified/compliant tizen stack | 21:19 |
| shmerl | I didn't really followed Tizen. Too closed development to my taste. And weren't they planning to drop EFL? | 21:19 |
| Stskeeps | how you get to become one is of course a complete unknown and you probably have to pay a 200k EUR membership fee to find out | 21:19 |
| ali1234 | i don't understand what that has to do with plants? | 21:20 |
| Stskeeps | ali1234: it's called Flora Software License | 21:21 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:21 |
| shmerl | I guess it means this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_License | 21:21 |
| ali1234 | (or cheap margarine) | 21:21 |
| ali1234 | oh, i see :) | 21:21 |
| shmerl | Looks like it's not OSI compatible. | 21:21 |
| fk_lx | Stskeeps: Tizen is all about keeping secret and releasing Source Open or you can call it Tada! Source | 21:22 |
| shmerl | Tada as in Bada?-) | 21:22 |
| ali1234 | i was intrigued by something mark dillon said? "it's not open source, it's 'source - open'" | 21:23 |
| Stskeeps | it being? | 21:23 |
| ali1234 | i guess he means same kind of thing as like "tada! source" | 21:23 |
| fk_lx | ali1234: yep | 21:23 |
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| ali1234 | he was refering to android | 21:23 |
| Stskeeps | ah, yeah | 21:24 |
| Stskeeps | http://developer.bada.com/help/topic/com.osp.documentation.help/html/images/what_is_bada_architecture.png | 21:24 |
| ali1234 | (on the MWC video) | 21:24 |
| Stskeeps | i didn't see it yet, will do tomorrow | 21:24 |
| shmerl | Stskeeps: Why can't they just base Tizen on Mer by the way? | 21:26 |
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| fk_lx | shmerl: that would be too easy | 21:27 |
| shmerl | fk_lx: It's not like they are making tons of money on it now anyway. | 21:27 |
| shmerl | For all it's worth it can be vaporware. | 21:27 |
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| Stskeeps | shmerl: ivi could probably go on top without a lot of merging trouble, but.. tizen opening up so late made any collaboration difficult | 21:31 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: originally mer was to be kinda subset of tizen packages and work together on a lot | 21:31 |
| Stskeeps | but it gets hard | 21:31 |
| shmerl | Stskeeps: I get the feeling that Intel isn't too interested in such thing, since they like contorl. Or may be they don't care much at all. | 21:32 |
| Stskeeps | bbl sleep | 21:32 |
| shmerl | Night | 21:32 |
| Stskeeps | shmerl: their development teams are good, with good people | 21:32 |
| shmerl | Right, but how open they are is decided by other people :) | 21:32 |
| Stskeeps | welcome to every company :P | 21:33 |
| Stskeeps | bbl | 21:33 |
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| fk_lx | hi kkszysiu | 21:34 |
| kkszysiu | Hello | 21:34 |
| fk_lx | kkszysiu: I recommended organizers of Linux Session to contact you, they are looking for speakers :-) | 21:35 |
| kkszysiu | Oh, so it was you, I was quite curious who recommended me :D | 21:35 |
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| fk_lx | kkszysiu: :-) | 21:36 |
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| fk_lx | kkszysiu: I've noticed you thanks to Stskeeps :-) | 21:37 |
| kkszysiu | fk_lx: You're founder of PyCon PL? | 21:41 |
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| kkszysiu | fk_lx: related to Wroclaw Linux Session I will attend but propably not as a speaker. Maybe next year when I will be more experienced and I will know how those presentation on Linux Session look like :) | 21:56 |
| kkszysiu | Im quite shy guy :D | 21:56 |
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| fk_lx | kkszysiu: no problem :-) but for sure I recommend you attending :-) | 22:00 |
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