Tuesday, 2013-02-26

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situMorning05:04
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JunJikeeps, are you awake?05:11
JunJikeeps -> Stskeeps05:11
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StskeepsJunJi: sortof05:35
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niqtmorning07:52
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blackjack4ithi all, I'm wondering how to get Mer start on a Xperia Mini Pro with unlocked bootloader..any helper around?08:11
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Stskeepscrevetor: pin09:42
Stskeepsg09:42
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SindriavaHey guys! :)09:53
SindriavaJust a quick question -- Are there any screenshots available?09:54
Nicd-mer is just a linux stack without a UI09:55
SindriavaOooh...09:55
Nicd-what would you take a screenshot of?09:55
SindriavaI have been mislead09:55
SindriavaNicd-: Sorry, I mistook it with the Sailfish OS :D09:55
SindriavaWrong channel09:55
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SindriavaAaanyways, I like what you're doing!09:56
SindriavaSee ya :)09:57
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martyonehi, any hint/recommended way to provide patches to VALA source files? I mean when the source bundle contains generated .c files and VALA compiler is not supposed to be run.10:17
Stskeepsugh10:17
Stskeeps:P10:17
Stskeepsmake a remark that it's like that i guess10:17
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martyoneStskeeps: I agree :-\10:27
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crevetorStskeeps: pong13:52
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ali1234martyone: what package is that? i thought most packages do run vala compiler... i see people complaining that they want to patch the C files and can't find the matching vala all the time13:56
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martyoneali1234: it is CE:MW:Shared/tracker14:22
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Stskeepsshmerl: so, use of android adaptations, ubuntu's way, sailfish way, etc, could you remind me of the topic?20:32
shmerlThat was mostly my worry that Ubuntu aren't going to push for more Wayland compatible drivers.20:33
shmerlSince they just rely on Android ones.20:34
Stskeepsthey're probably not, no - in practice, we're way past the point where we can ask for x11 adaptations in many chipsets20:34
Stskeepsand to get there again, or for wayland, we need volume to convince vendors20:34
shmerlWhat kind of drivers can Wayland rely on? Let's say some vendor writes Wayland dedicated driver. What is it? DRI2 or something else?20:35
Stskeepsit doesn't really, but the problem is that SoC vendors don't really give a shit about non-android :)20:35
Stskeepsthey're not going to spend time on anything non-android20:35
Stskeepswayland's theoretically just another windowing system and buffer sharing method20:36
shmerlStskeeps: They didn't care about Linux on the desktop as well (it was Windows only). It took long pains to improve that.20:36
Stskeepslike surfaceflinger is with binder and it's buffer sharing20:36
Stskeepsyou can do wayland on top of libhybris20:36
Stskeepson top of android gpu drivers20:37
shmerlStskeeps: But Wayland has some requirements for driver architecture?20:37
RaYmAnThere is a chance that if these OS with the libhybrid approach catches on, evntually OEM's will start pushing for better drivers without android layer20:37
Stskeepsnot really20:37
shmerlI.e. if not Android, how can Wayland compatible driver look like?20:37
Stskeepsjust some handy extensions20:37
Stskeepsas an example, qml compositor can do 'wayland' without actually having wayland drivers20:37
Stskeepsif there's a way to share buffers20:37
shmerlI thought the main problem with android is the degraded support of libc.20:38
shmerlI.e. bionic is considered crippled and all you can do is to dance around that.20:38
shmerlEven with libhybris you just mask the fact.20:38
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shmerlSo ideally you'd prefer drivers which aren't built on bionic.20:39
Stskeepssure20:40
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Stskeepsbut we cant afford that luxury atm20:40
RaYmAnIt would be interesting if we could get android drivers built for glibc from some vendor20:41
shmerlStskeeps: What about those manufacturers which do produce them, like Nvidia? They were interested in moving to DRI2, but are lagging behind20:41
RaYmAnat least as a test20:41
shmerlMy worry is that if Canonical, Jolla and others are going to give up because "it's hard" - it's for sure won't happen ever.20:42
shmerlOn the desktop luckily distros pushed hard for drivers.20:43
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shmerlRaYmAn: I think Android depends on bionic quite strongly. I'm not sure if you can just plug glibc there instead.20:44
Stskeepsyou can't, really :P20:45
Stskeepsshmerl: personally i know the field right now.. you can't stay competitive if you have to rely on non-android drivers20:45
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RaYmAnI suspect someone has to prove there actually is a market for all these linux based OS (apart from android) before any vendors start listening20:45
Stskeepsshmerl: libhybris is called exactly that because it commits hubris against the current status quo of hw adaptations20:45
Stskeepsand it's not the thing we really want to do, but is put in a situation where it's needed20:46
Stskeeps:P20:46
shmerlStskeeps: Should Jolla start making their own SoCs to fix that?-)20:46
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Stskeepsshmerl: yeah, if we had that kind of money..20:46
Stskeeps:P20:46
Stskeepsshmerl: my own future stacks revolve around libhybris because that's what you get when you speak to ODM20:47
Stskeepss20:47
shmerlMay be, some day.20:47
Stskeepsyou get an android adaptation20:47
shmerlStskeeps: What if Nvidia will move to Wayland on the desktop?20:47
Stskeepsshmerl: won't really matter20:47
shmerlThey most probably will start supporting it with Tegra too.20:48
Stskeepsshmerl: this is embedded people used to use directfb too20:48
Stskeeps:P20:48
Stskeeps,20:48
shmerlSometiems it feels like Google really screwed things up.20:48
Stskeepswe let them, tbh20:49
Stskeepsandroid's biggest win was that it managed to unify all the BSPs many different SoC vendors had20:49
Stskeepsand people were more busy in OSS mobile camp about fighting about gpl vs bsd vs deb vs emacs vs rpm20:50
shmerlI think still one shouldn't just give up on working with hw manufacturers.20:50
shmerlYou just need to find ones which will agree to work with it.20:50
Stskeepslet's start by making them have sailfish as part of their offerings20:50
shmerlSure20:50
Stskeepsand i've tried to be idealistic about this before, personally, but it really comes down to $$ and reality20:51
Stskeepsif you want to make a device and sell it at a reasonable price that people actually want, you do not get the luxury of making demands20:51
shmerlThere is also another thing - open source drivers improving.20:51
shmerlAt some point they might hit.20:51
Stskeepsfreedreno and such?20:51
shmerlYep. Do you think that will matter?20:52
Stskeepspatent minefield for anybody who dares to commercialize using it20:52
Stskeepsthere's a lot of implicit patent grants you get with the blobs20:52
Stskeeps:P20:52
shmerlIt's a bit more tricky. If they'll start to be competitive, hw manufacturers might start backing them up.20:52
shmerlSo patent issues will be defended.20:53
Stskeepsyeah.. and then we have arm or mali refusing to ship to them..20:53
shmerlI mean if they aren't stupid.20:53
shmerlBut many are ;)20:53
* Fosus lurks chat interested20:53
Morpog_MobileSo whats intel doing? Are they going for non-android drivers to sell their soc's?20:54
StskeepsMorpog_Mobile: even intel uses blobs though and wayland matters in some of their markets20:54
shmerlIntel seems to be lagging too much. Even with their Atoms.20:54
Stskeepsshmerl: i don't like the state of things but the practical impact is that the biggest market entry blocker for any non-android system is the fact you have to find good hardware adaptation for it20:54
shmerlI don't really get what their problem is.20:54
Morpog_MobileLatest atom offerings seem fine20:55
shmerlStskeeps: I agree. Same story was with hw support in early Linux days.20:55
shmerlToo much Windows only stuff.20:55
Stskeepsshmerl: half a year ago, i was even looking into mer on top of bionic as i could see the writing on the wall20:55
Stskeepsshmerl: sure, but now it's the stupid situation it's linux vs linux :)20:56
shmerlYeah, that's why I even say Android shouldn't be called Linux ;)20:56
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shmerlFormally saying it is of course.20:56
FosusDo you guys think ARM laptops with linux could succeed?20:57
FosusLike Samsung Chromebook 320:57
* Fosus is drooling for that one20:57
Fosusnot so much into chromeOS tho20:57
StskeepsFosus: once they string up whoever designed libre/openoffice impress and makes the damn thing usable..20:58
Stskeepsshmerl: but anyway, the use of android drivers is simply due to simple need by now20:59
shmerlStskeeps: I'm OK with Jolla pushing for libhybris as a "works now" solution, if the global goal of enabling normal drivers isn't dropped for the long term.20:59
shmerl(Same goes for Canonical).20:59
Stskeepsthere's a lot of political fights that can be done, but at the moment, the most important is a non-android one20:59
Stskeepsand not just a copy of what android does, or a shell on top of android21:00
Stskeepswe loose this fight and it's game over21:00
shmerlRight21:00
shmerlIn this sense Firefox OS is doing a good thing too.21:00
Stskeepsfirefox os is a shell on top of android, but they do run on other OS'es21:01
shmerlEven though they reuse Android drivers as well.21:01
Stskeepsi'm for firefox 'os' app runtime, but i'm not a fan of the OS itself21:01
shmerlIt servers the purpose you stated - "a non-android" (offering)21:01
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shmerlI mean - just adds diversity.21:02
Stskeepssure21:02
Stskeepsbut it also takes android out of an area it kinda don't want to be in, fragmentative low end phones21:02
Stskeepsit makes developers unhappy, users unhappy..21:02
shmerlWhich is interesting, since JavaScript on low end sounds a bit scary.21:03
* lbt looks around and tries to recall his mer-ish task list21:03
ali1234Stskeeps: i think you worry too much about "winning" :)21:03
shmerlI think it means here simply getting traction.21:04
Stskeepsali1234: i should really go back to playing civilization..21:04
ali1234i prefer minecraft21:05
ali1234if you "win" the game... it just tells you to go outside21:05
Stskeepshehe21:06
shmerlJust red an article about dwarf fortress :)21:07
* Stskeeps is looking forward to getting back to his home office to hack, hack hack21:07
shmerlIt says - loosing is fun ;)21:07
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Stskeepsbut anyway, we're now in a situation where we might actually have a shot at making sane non-android devices21:10
Stskeepswithout having to resort to redoing all our software to fit on top of android's build system21:10
ali1234was the build system ever a problem?21:11
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shmerlali1234: Collabora tried to port some regular Linux stuff to Android build system. It was a pain.21:11
Stskeepswell, maybe not build system (sorry, bit late here)21:12
shmerlHuge pain as I'veheard.21:12
ali1234i'm sure it would be difficult to do that way21:12
ali1234that's why some compatibility layer makes sense21:12
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Stskeepslet's see where everything ends up anyway..21:15
Stskeepsi can see firefox os's app runtime becoming the standard html5 runtime for linux distros21:15
Stskeepsas it can run at a large bunch of targets21:15
ali1234when you say "distros"21:16
Stskeepssystems?21:16
Stskeeps:P21:16
Stskeepsthat it happens to run on phones and have a OS UI around it is one thing21:16
ali1234i can't see traditional distro users even caring about html5 apps21:16
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Stskeepswell21:17
shmerlStskeeps: That would be great. Then it'll be supported across all systems. Kind of bad time for webOS and Tizen :)21:17
Stskeepsi have my opinions about that21:17
Stskeeps:P21:17
Stskeeps(traditional distros)21:17
ali1234neither QML not the gnome thing either21:17
Stskeepsshmerl: personally i would have liked webos to do it, as it's qt, and webkit, but they're not playing their cards right21:18
Stskeepstizen.. do i need to say flora software license?21:18
Stskeepsand EFL/UIFW21:18
ali1234flora?21:18
Stskeepsyeah21:18
Stskeepsapache license but you only get the patents if you're a certified/compliant tizen stack21:19
shmerlI didn't really followed Tizen. Too closed development to my taste. And weren't they planning to drop EFL?21:19
Stskeepshow you get to become one is of course a complete unknown and you probably have to pay a 200k EUR membership fee to find out21:19
ali1234i don't understand what that has to do with plants?21:20
Stskeepsali1234: it's called Flora Software License21:21
Stskeeps:P21:21
shmerlI guess it means this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_License21:21
ali1234(or cheap margarine)21:21
ali1234oh, i see :)21:21
shmerlLooks like it's not OSI compatible.21:21
fk_lxStskeeps: Tizen is all about keeping secret and releasing Source Open or you can call it Tada! Source21:22
shmerlTada as in Bada?-)21:22
ali1234i was intrigued by something mark dillon said? "it's not open source, it's 'source - open'"21:23
Stskeepsit being?21:23
ali1234i guess he means same kind of thing as like "tada! source"21:23
fk_lxali1234: yep21:23
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ali1234he was refering to android21:23
Stskeepsah, yeah21:24
Stskeepshttp://developer.bada.com/help/topic/com.osp.documentation.help/html/images/what_is_bada_architecture.png21:24
ali1234(on the MWC video)21:24
Stskeepsi didn't see it yet, will do tomorrow21:24
shmerlStskeeps: Why can't they just base Tizen on Mer by the way?21:26
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fk_lxshmerl: that would be too easy21:27
shmerlfk_lx: It's not like they are making tons of money on it now anyway.21:27
shmerlFor all it's worth it can be vaporware.21:27
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Stskeepsshmerl: ivi could probably go on top without a lot of merging trouble, but.. tizen opening up so late made any collaboration difficult21:31
Stskeepsshmerl: originally mer was to be kinda subset of tizen packages and work together on a lot21:31
Stskeepsbut it gets hard21:31
shmerlStskeeps: I get the feeling that Intel isn't too interested in such thing, since they like contorl. Or may be they don't care much at all.21:32
Stskeepsbbl sleep21:32
shmerlNight21:32
Stskeepsshmerl: their development teams are good, with good people21:32
shmerlRight, but how open they are is decided by other people :)21:32
Stskeepswelcome to every company :P21:33
Stskeepsbbl21:33
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fk_lxhi kkszysiu21:34
kkszysiuHello21:34
fk_lxkkszysiu: I recommended organizers of Linux Session to contact you, they are looking for speakers :-)21:35
kkszysiuOh, so it was you, I was quite curious who recommended me :D21:35
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fk_lxkkszysiu: :-)21:36
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fk_lxkkszysiu: I've noticed you thanks to Stskeeps :-)21:37
kkszysiufk_lx: You're founder of PyCon PL?21:41
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kkszysiufk_lx: related to Wroclaw Linux Session I will attend but propably not as a speaker. Maybe next year when I will be more experienced and I will know how those presentation on Linux Session look like :)21:56
kkszysiuIm quite shy guy :D21:56
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fk_lxkkszysiu: no problem :-) but for sure I recommend you attending :-)22:00
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