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| archeyDevil | Hello. Anyone here know any great guides for getting mer/sailfish to run on the Nokia N900 ? | 07:10 |
|---|---|---|
| * archeyDevil has a little bricking experience with the device so I'm not too afraid to brick it ;) Easy to fix. :) | 07:11 | |
| kulve | archeyDevil: have you checked the URLs inthe topic? | 07:11 |
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| archeyDevil | I thought I did; but I was thinking of #maemo; sorry. | 07:12 |
| archeyDevil | kulve: ^ | 07:12 |
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| * archeyDevil still can't find any guides for getting mer/sailfish on the N900? | 07:17 | |
| special | archeyDevil: you probably want nemo | 07:18 |
| special | there are instructions for that at https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo/Installing#Nokia_N900 | 07:18 |
| archeyDevil | special: I've seen that page before; It's installing to the SD card, I don't have any microSD card large enough for such. I need to install over Maemo. | 07:19 |
| archeyDevil | Undesired but I haven't access to larger SD cards. | 07:19 |
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| special | ah, I have no idea how to do that | 07:20 |
| archeyDevil | :( | 07:21 |
| archeyDevil | I'm awaiting for several SD cards. 1 for my r3.14, 1 for my eeepc, 3 for my N900; And yea. :P | 07:22 |
| archeyDevil | r3.14 -> Raspberry Pi (Habit; easier to type lol) | 07:22 |
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| suosaaski | I would almost be interested in installing Nemo on my N9 but to be honest, I am kinda waiting for Sailfish UI if it becomes available, until then, I prefer the N9s UI. | 07:23 |
| archeyDevil | special: Any ideas on getting qemu to boot that image then? | 07:23 |
| archeyDevil | That'd be enough for me; I just want to test it out. I don't need it on my phone exactly. | 07:23 |
| special | well, are you looking specifically for sailfish? | 07:24 |
| archeyDevil | special: sailfish afaik, looks/acts very much like nemo due to being based apon yes? | 07:25 |
| archeyDevil | Sailfish isn't exactly available for what I can see/find. So I come here for the upstream. | 07:25 |
| special | per sailfishos.org, sailfish SDK binaries aren't available until Q1 2013. Nemo is separate, and the UI is entirely different, but it's largely compatible | 07:26 |
| suosaaski | archeyDevil: sailfish has a completely different ui compared to nemo. | 07:26 |
| suosaaski | (at least as far as looks go) | 07:26 |
| archeyDevil | Ahh. Okay | 07:26 |
| special | if you want to try nemo in a VM, https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo/Installing#i586_Virtual_Machine | 07:26 |
| archeyDevil | special: Q1 meaning; jan-apr? | 07:27 |
| suosaaski | jan-mar | 07:28 |
| archeyDevil | special: Ehh. vBox.. Any images for qemu? | 07:28 |
| archeyDevil | suosaaski: Thanks. | 07:28 |
| suosaaski | q2 = apr-jun | 07:28 |
| suosaaski | q3 = jul-sep, q4 = oct-dec | 07:29 |
| archeyDevil | Okay :) | 07:29 |
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| * archeyDevil meant mar instead of apr lol. | 07:29 | |
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| archeyDevil | 10 min download for vm image. I suspect the image they have should work with qemu. Unless due to drivers, it should. :) | 07:31 |
| archeyDevil | or 4 minutes :) | 07:31 |
| archeyDevil | Nice speeds today :D 700+Kbps | 07:31 |
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| Stskeeps | zzz | 08:05 |
| situ | Morning all | 08:08 |
| Stskeeps | morn situ | 08:13 |
| archeyDevil | Morning... | 08:13 |
| archeyDevil | Sat Dec 15 19:13:29 EST 2012 | 08:13 |
| archeyDevil | Welcome to the future ^^ | 08:13 |
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| suosaaski | Why is it the future? | 08:16 |
| suosaaski | and it's the past now. | 08:17 |
| archeyDevil | Will sailfish use a firefox-based browser? | 08:17 |
| archeyDevil | suosaaski: Generally speaking I'm 11hrs in the future according to GMT :) | 08:17 |
| archeyDevil | lol | 08:17 |
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| archeyDevil | 10/11 | 08:17 |
| archeyDevil | idk now cause I don't follow day light saving blah. | 08:18 |
| suosaaski | ok... it's 10:18 here :) | 08:18 |
| archeyDevil | 19:18 [freenode] CTCP TIME reply from suosaaski: Sat Dec 15 10:18:55 2012 | 08:19 |
| archeyDevil | :P | 08:19 |
| archeyDevil | You live in the past :D | 08:19 |
| situ | Stskeeps: I would like music was played at Sailfish launch as default ringtone on Jolla phones. | 08:19 |
| Stskeeps | hehe | 08:19 |
| Stskeeps | i think most do :) | 08:19 |
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| archeyDevil | Stskeeps: Yupp lol | 08:20 |
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| Bostik | archeyDevil: very likely not, as the core is geared towards Qt, and UI is QML; with Qt5 there will be [eventually] a full QtWebKit available | 08:27 |
| Bostik | archeyDevil: so having gecko side-by-side is probably an unnecessary duplication of engineering effort | 08:27 |
| Bostik | archeyDevil: do note that I do not, and CAN not speak for Jolla's intentions as I have no idea what they are | 08:28 |
| archeyDevil | Bostik: Oh ofc. | 08:28 |
| Stskeeps | though if you want to run even mosaic, you're welcome | 08:28 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 08:28 |
| archeyDevil | I keep forgetting this is QT land lol | 08:28 |
| Stskeeps | or gtk or moti | 08:28 |
| Stskeeps | f | 08:28 |
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| sledges | good mornin | 09:15 |
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| Superpelican | Stskeeps:What's the recommended way to install g++ on Maemo 5 (Nokia N900)? | 09:20 |
| Superpelican | Stskeeps:Don't want to destroy my Maemo OS | 09:20 |
| Stskeeps | there's none, on-device compilation is not sane | 09:20 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 09:20 |
| Superpelican | Stskeeps:So I can't compile on the go? | 09:21 |
| Superpelican | Stskeeps: So this is not recommended:http://ossguy.com/?p=475 ? | 09:21 |
| Stskeeps | not really, no | 09:22 |
| Stskeeps | you can, but it may destroy your OS | 09:22 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 09:22 |
| Stskeeps | anyway, this is more of a #maemo question | 09:23 |
| iekku | morning | 09:24 |
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| Stskeeps | hello jo___ | 09:50 |
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| jo___ | hello Stskeeps | 09:52 |
| Stskeeps | jo___: welcome to #mer :) so what brings you here? | 09:52 |
| jo___ | I was hoping to see some activity here and see if I can get some more info on jolla | 09:53 |
| Stskeeps | sure, for jolla specific discussions, #jollamobile is good. Jolla's Sailfish consists of Mer Core, Nemo middleware (#nemomobile) and Sailfish UI | 09:54 |
| Stskeeps | as to maximize openness | 09:54 |
| jo___ | yes i know that I have watch the jolla presentation | 09:55 |
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| jo___ | Stskeeps: so are you part of the mer development team? | 09:58 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, i'm the project architect | 09:58 |
| Stskeeps | it's a seperate effort from Jolla, has it's own governance, etc :) | 09:58 |
| jo___ | yes I have also read about mer | 09:59 |
| jo___ | <Stskeeps> I have once watch a youtube video on mer on N900 | 10:00 |
| Stskeeps | old or new mer, out of curiousity? | 10:00 |
| Stskeeps | we had two projects, one that was before meego, one that was after | 10:00 |
| jo___ | The video was uploaded this year I guess it is the new one | 10:01 |
| Stskeeps | ok, maybe | 10:01 |
| Stskeeps | so what do you hope to use mer for? | 10:01 |
| jo___ | I'm not a developer but still I would have like to use it on my N900 | 10:03 |
| jo___ | atleast to test another OS on my N900 | 10:04 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 10:05 |
| Stskeeps | you can try out nemo mobile at least | 10:05 |
| jo___ | I know a little about linux but i still don't fully get the difference between nemo and mer | 10:06 |
| Stskeeps | mer is a core, so it gives building blocks | 10:07 |
| Stskeeps | nemo gives an actual ui | 10:07 |
| jo___ | you mean mer consist of the linux kernel | 10:08 |
| jo___ | if nemo is an actual ui, what about sailfish ui? | 10:08 |
| Stskeeps | sailfish ui is an actual productized ui | 10:09 |
| Stskeeps | nemo is a ui made by community | 10:09 |
| Stskeeps | mer is kinda more like a set of libraries, system level stuff that gives ability to run 60fps qt/html5 applications | 10:09 |
| jo___ | thanks for your help, it is very nice to come on a channel and to have a discussion with a project architect | 10:11 |
| jo___ | I'm sure you do have a lot of other stuff to do | 10:11 |
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| phaeron | Stskeeps: morning | 10:11 |
| Stskeeps | good morning phaeron | 10:12 |
| Stskeeps | jo___: sure, feel free to ask questions at any time | 10:12 |
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| jo___ | Currently what are the work in progress on Mer? | 10:16 |
| Stskeeps | jo___: a lot of things, we keep packages updated, sdk working, work to integrate qt5, wayland | 10:16 |
| Stskeeps | and so on | 10:16 |
| Stskeeps | it's kinda dull but also costy work that it doesn't make sense for individual companies to do | 10:16 |
| Stskeeps | so we work together on it | 10:16 |
| jo___ | I have some knowledge of linux, if I wanted to help what would you advise me? | 10:18 |
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| Stskeeps | in our bugtracker we have a lot of open task bugs, which are good to dive into | 10:18 |
| Stskeeps | and good to get your hands dirty with | 10:18 |
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| Stskeeps | phaeron: slept well? | 10:20 |
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| phaeron | somewhat, this dry air is not friendly | 10:24 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 10:24 |
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| phaeron | Stskeeps: so what's next for mds2 | 10:27 |
| Stskeeps | well, i think binary repos are probably next | 10:28 |
| Stskeeps | it's probably copy-and-paste from mds1 and perhaps some sanity checking | 10:28 |
| phaeron | ok | 10:28 |
| phaeron | will get on it | 10:28 |
| phaeron | and it should also dynamically lookup repos instead of having them hardcoded in the mappings.xml | 10:29 |
| phaeron | right ? | 10:29 |
| Stskeeps | well, it just needs to look in obs-repos/ yeah | 10:29 |
| kulve | hmm.. how is touchscreen supposed to work with rotating the display with xrandr? | 10:29 |
| Stskeeps | usually the touchscreen coordinates should rotate too. in nemo we don't use xrandr as it's too slow for rotation animation (well, that was the cargo cult from nokia) | 10:31 |
| kulve | I thought too that ts should rotate as well, but doesn't for some reason.. Well, not urgent now | 10:32 |
| Stskeeps | are you on -evdev or -mtev? | 10:32 |
| kulve | -mtev | 10:32 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 10:33 |
| kulve | how about vsync with PA? Is there simple way of "just enabling" it..? | 10:35 |
| kulve | or double buffering actually | 10:35 |
| Stskeeps | hmm, that's a good question | 10:35 |
| kulve | or is that x driver specific? | 10:35 |
| Stskeeps | the way we have sane vsync in nemo is because of the GLES driver paying attention to it | 10:36 |
| Stskeeps | since many PA apps may actually be sw rendering, i'm unsure / i don't know how kwin works | 10:36 |
| kulve | I did see some tearing with nemo when panning the main view but with e.g. PA browser, it's tearing a lot. Also I'm seeing some polygon like tearing so I think it could be using gles for something | 10:38 |
| Stskeeps | also that we fullscreen apps for a reason, as to be able to just flip buffers to screen | 10:38 |
| kulve | also there's a daemon called kwinactive_gles (not sure if that's a window manager..) | 10:38 |
| Stskeeps | shouldn't really be that bad on a n7 though.. | 10:38 |
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| kulve | vgrade: do you happen to know how the video playback works with PA? Does it use gstreamer and if yes, what component chooses the video sink? | 11:48 |
| kulve | i.e. what do I need to patch | 11:48 |
| phaeron | Stskeeps: so what's the test case. first I need a repo in binaries path. right ? | 11:50 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 11:51 |
| Stskeeps | you can just rsync one down - test that you can build against a specific mer tag i guess | 11:51 |
| phaeron | cleaned up the code while copying it | 11:51 |
| Stskeeps | such as 0.2012fooblah.0.1 | 11:51 |
| phaeron | building will probably come later | 11:51 |
| phaeron | I need to test it with curl first | 11:51 |
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| * Stskeeps seemingily has to go to IKEA now | 11:54 | |
| Stskeeps | will be on n95 | 11:54 |
| Stskeeps | 0 | 11:54 |
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| phaeron | Stskeeps: enjoy | 12:00 |
| kulve | Mer release 0.2011 (Mer) | 12:08 |
| Stskeeps | yea.. :P | 12:10 |
| Stskeeps | need to find a better way to generate that | 12:10 |
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| vgrade | kulve: sent you an email with some contacts for PA | 12:25 |
| kulve | vgrade: just noticed, thanks | 12:25 |
| vgrade | kulve: I know kwin has different code paths depending on the gles renderer | 12:25 |
| vgrade | kulve: it may be that the tegra renderer needs adding | 12:26 |
| kulve | you did continue in a bit odd mail thread? :) | 12:27 |
| vgrade | well got your email from that list | 12:28 |
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| vgrade | kulve: video is via QtMultimedia I think but I've onl seen it working on x86 | 12:28 |
| Bostik | even qtmultimedia uses gstreamer as the backend, I believe | 12:30 |
| vgrade | Bostik: I think stock qtmultimedia needs a patch to set the right sink for tegra video | 12:31 |
| Bostik | oh, that's good to know | 12:32 |
| vgrade | at least it did for tegra2 | 12:33 |
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| Bostik | oh my, Islay christmas blend is delicious | 12:33 |
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| kulve | vgrade: I did same for tegra3 | 12:43 |
| vgrade | kulve: did you lookup that bug ref I gave | 12:47 |
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| Superpelican | Stskeeps:You said on-device development isn't sane on Maemo. But is it on Mer(will it be on Jolla :) )? | 15:26 |
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| ali1234 | it's better on mer | 15:45 |
| ali1234 | though it depends what you mean: are you looking for fully on device IDE, or just building on the target and editing on ssh from a real computer? | 15:46 |
| Superpelican | ali1234:Primary building on target, but a decent IDE won't hurt either | 15:46 |
| ali1234 | well user apps like IDEs are the job of whatever builds on top of mer | 15:48 |
| ali1234 | but installing toolchains etc on to the device should be quite easy since OBS requires them to be packaged anyway | 15:49 |
| ali1234 | and if they are packaged then they should be installable | 15:49 |
| ali1234 | maemo was crazy because the default way to build for it was cross compilers and scratchbox (1) | 15:49 |
| Bostik | ...and the fact that in order to (re)build a good chunk of maemo software you needed nokia-proprietary (iow. not public) headers and/or libs | 15:50 |
| Bostik | been there, done that, not long enough to have scarred the wounds... | 15:51 |
| Stskeeps | 15:53 | |
| Nicd- | 15:54 | |
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| Superpelican | Bostik, ali1234:Is that nokia-proprietary stuff also needed for building Qt-based apps for the N900 (without Hildon etc.)? | 16:07 |
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| Stskeeps | technically, the gles headers | 16:10 |
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| Stskeeps | phaeron: back | 17:05 |
| phaeron | Stskeeps: wb | 17:05 |
| Stskeeps | phaeron: so where are we at by now? | 17:05 |
| phaeron | /build stuff should be done | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 17:08 |
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| Stskeeps | i suppose since we're so fast with lookup by now, simply running lastevents on all packages when a branch is updated makes sense somehow? | 17:08 |
| Stskeeps | unless we want to do more intelligence than that | 17:08 |
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| phaeron | what kind of intelligence, I was thinking we just pregen the stuff at startup and everytime there is an update | 17:09 |
| phaeron | also same for mappings cache | 17:10 |
| phaeron | also is there a map of the API we want to support ? not sure what is missing right now | 17:11 |
| Stskeeps | well, we have to indicate to the remote obs that a (source) package has updated, as an example, or a repo has updated | 17:11 |
| Stskeeps | well, the api that's in mds1 at least | 17:11 |
| phaeron | which is not very well documented :D | 17:12 |
| Stskeeps | point | 17:12 |
| phaeron | ok will read the code and extract | 17:12 |
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| phaeron | lastevents is just a sequence number, right ? | 17:13 |
| Stskeeps | yes | 17:13 |
| Stskeeps | and whatu pdated, what kind of event, etc | 17:13 |
| phaeron | for tags it wouldn't change. | 17:14 |
| phaeron | For "latest" and similar it would | 17:15 |
| Stskeeps | yes | 17:15 |
| phaeron | but unlike a real obs it wouldn't change randomly | 17:15 |
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| Stskeeps | Sfiet_Konstantin: you do know of Maui, right? | 17:22 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | yep | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 17:22 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | sounds interesting | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | how is that different from JADE? | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:22 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | but never look at the code | 17:22 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | JADE was a discussion :D | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | it's qt5, wayland and qtquick2 | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:22 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | and I don't want it to be desktop oriented | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | alright | 17:22 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | I want it to be hybrid | 17:23 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | or even full touch | 17:23 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | but more tablet | 17:23 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | rather than smartphone | 17:23 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | Plasma active is not convincing me | 17:23 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 17:24 |
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| Sfiet_Konstantin | will try to produce some code one day | 17:25 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | maybe when I finished my studies | 17:25 |
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| Sfiet_Konstantin | ha | 18:42 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | maui's hawaii desktop uses stuff from KDE | 18:42 |
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| Stskeeps | well, mer uses kcalcore too | 19:22 |
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| Sfiet_Konstantin | really ? | 19:56 |
| Stskeeps | sure | 19:56 |
| Stskeeps | but not kdelibs | 19:57 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | I thought that these KDE libs were quite glued together | 19:57 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | yeah, kdelibs is too fat | 19:57 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | (from now) | 19:57 |
| Stskeeps | some aren't, i guess | 19:57 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | KF5 is what we need :) | 19:59 |
| * Stskeeps is reading http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2012/12/14/unamerican-mccarthyist-cancer.html | 20:00 | |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | Stskeeps: what does that comes from ? | 20:01 |
| Stskeeps | think i picked it up on reddit | 20:02 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | need to try reddit one day | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | don't, if you value your free time | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:03 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | never found how it works really, but I picked some Jolla sstuff on it | 20:03 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | ah | 20:03 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | ok | 20:03 |
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| Sfiet_Konstantin | Stskeeps: interesting article | 20:06 |
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| Stskeeps | good morning lpotter | 20:13 |
| lpotter | morning | 20:13 |
| situ | Reading article too, thanks Stskeeps | 20:14 |
| * Stskeeps is no way a gnubie, fwiw :P | 20:16 | |
| Stskeeps | just interesting history | 20:16 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | indeed | 20:16 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | it is not even about gni or not, more about corporate decisions | 20:16 |
| * lpotter missed it | 20:20 | |
| * Stskeeps is reading http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2012/12/14/unamerican-mccarthyist-cancer.html (from earlier) | 20:21 | |
| situ | Probably Canonical is on the way to face a boycott. | 20:24 |
| Stskeeps | i dunno.. things are definately changing in the linux world | 20:25 |
| situ | Systemd is not supported on Ubuntu | 20:25 |
| Stskeeps | well, they have upstart | 20:25 |
| lpotter | cool. he quotes Dead Kennedys | 20:25 |
| situ | Yes, but Systemd people chose not to support Ubuntu. | 20:25 |
| Stskeeps | it's rather reverse | 20:26 |
| Stskeeps | (i think) | 20:26 |
| Stskeeps | i might be wrong | 20:26 |
| Stskeeps | in practice bigger linux distributions have gotten so complex it's hard to change course | 20:27 |
| Stskeeps | they had the right idea in ubuntu core but really never followed through on what it means in practice | 20:28 |
| Stskeeps | (imho) | 20:28 |
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| Stskeeps | evening faenil | 20:32 |
| faenil | o/ master | 20:32 |
| faenil | got something I can port to BB10? I'm on a porting spree, lol | 20:33 |
| Stskeeps | linux? | 20:33 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:33 |
| faenil | ahahah :D | 20:34 |
| faenil | very nice answer :) | 20:34 |
| * lpotter needs to try and update his bb10 thingy | 20:35 | |
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| situ | Stskeeps: What do you think about QNX ? | 20:36 |
| Stskeeps | it's a microkernel so that's good, but they have same hardware adaptation issues as any other non-Linux - the hardware adaptations aren't made for those devices | 20:37 |
| faenil | lpotter, if you only use Qt, and not Cascades, get ready for some showstopping bugs | 20:38 |
| lpotter | I know. sadly | 20:39 |
| situ | "QNX technology concept car" what ? | 20:40 |
| lpotter | but their priority i casesority is cascades | 20:40 |
| situ | http://www.qnx.com/news/events/ces2013.html?tC=banner&tE=clicked&tA=ces20135dec2012 | 20:40 |
| Stskeeps | well, i'd use QNX in an engine.. | 20:41 |
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| M4rtinK | IIRC, QNX is used quite lot in the industry | 20:45 |
| M4rtinK | in cars, planes, etc. | 20:45 |
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| M4rtinK | I've also seen a mention about the Cisco licencing (a part of ?) QNX for IOS | 20:46 |
| M4rtinK | on a related note, I wonder when someone does a mobile device running VxWorks :) | 20:52 |
| M4rtinK | they already made a few wheeled ones though :) | 20:53 |
| jayrulez | I have the source to QNX from 2009 | 21:00 |
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| bunk | VxWorks and QNX are alternatives to Linux in industrial devices where the worst-case real-time performance is extremely important. | 21:07 |
| bunk | For handsets and infotainment devices (which are what Mer targets) a RTOS doesn't really bring any benefits. | 21:09 |
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| jayrulez | QNX is general purpose | 21:09 |
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| bunk | I know, and I also know what BlackBerry is doing with it | 21:18 |
| bunk | but it doesn't make that much sense since the strengths of QNX are in other areas | 21:21 |
| jayrulez | What does not make much sense? | 21:21 |
| bunk | using a RTOS for a tablet | 21:23 |
| jayrulez | It makes sense in RIM's case. | 21:24 |
| bunk | Why? | 21:25 |
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| jayrulez | Less maintenance overhead. | 21:25 |
| bunk | Why that? | 21:26 |
| jayrulez | Only maintaining the QNX stack rather than a Linux stack and a QNX stack. | 21:26 |
| jayrulez | They are already maintaining QNX for industrial customers and car manufacturers. | 21:26 |
| jayrulez | Also, QNX is much smaller than Linux. | 21:27 |
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| bunk | kernel size is irrelevant on a device with 1 GB RAM | 21:28 |
| jayrulez | QNX is optimized for embedded devices with tight memory constraints. | 21:29 |
| jayrulez | I am talking about the size of the source code. | 21:29 |
| bunk | getting QNX to have the same functionality for a tablet as TI already delivers with the BSP for Linux was likely a lot of extra work, and the same will be true for all future SoCs supported | 21:30 |
| bunk | source code size of the kernel itself doesn't matter either | 21:30 |
| jayrulez | QNX supported some TI BSPs even before RIM acquired QSS. | 21:31 |
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| jayrulez | Also, adding new BSP support is not a huge task as I've seen a small team of about 3 people do it in a couple of months while working on other tasks. | 21:32 |
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| bunk | That depends on the functionalities required and on how much was already supported before. | 21:34 |
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| jayrulez | What advantages would using linux bring? | 21:35 |
| bunk | "3 people do it in a couple of months while working on other tasks" sounds like a realistic estimate for porting a vendor BSP to a slightly different custum hardware using the same Soc. | 21:37 |
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| bunk | creating a BSP with all functionalities required for a tablet takes insane amounts of man years | 21:38 |
| jayrulez | http://community.qnx.com/sf/wiki/do/viewPage/projects.bsp/wiki/BSPAndDrivers | 21:39 |
| jayrulez | Please read this article, quite interesting: http://genode.org/documentation/articles/pandaboard | 21:40 |
| ali1234 | depends if they have documentation | 21:43 |
| ali1234 | porting a (open source/documented) BSP to a different board with the same SoC is a weekend job for one person | 21:45 |
| bunk | ali1234: Depends on the differences between the boards and the required functionality. | 21:47 |
| ali1234 | since they both use the same SoC the differences will largely consist of "on board A the power LED is on GPIO 19, on board B it is on GPIO 23" | 21:48 |
| bunk | Just like the "3 people do it in a couple of months while working on other tasks" does likely not include writing ltimedia and 3D support from scratch. | 21:49 |
| jayrulez | No, it does not. | 21:50 |
| bunk | ali1234: there's much fun e.g. with components on the board not supported by Linux at all or only with a 3 years old buggy driver | 21:50 |
| ali1234 | 3 people and a couple of months would be a reasonable timeframe for a slightly different SoC from the same vendor and no documentation at all | 21:50 |
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| bunk | "no documentation at all" makes it hard to get it done at all | 21:52 |
| ali1234 | or perhaps a totally different SoC, documented, and with a standard widely used 3d core | 21:52 |
| ali1234 | no documentation at all is what the people putting android on windows mobile devices ever had, it normally took them a couple of months for each new device, and was mainly done by 4-5 people. | 21:53 |
| bunk | that's usually with full Soc documentation and that SoC already reasonably supported under Linux | 21:54 |
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| ali1234 | lol | 21:54 |
| ali1234 | full SoC documentation from qualcomm given to hackers? | 21:54 |
| jayrulez | I was not talking about Linux :) | 21:55 |
| ali1234 | it was actually done by disassembling the windows mobile drivers and other reverse engineering techniques | 21:55 |
| ali1234 | anyway, the operating systems involved do not matter | 21:55 |
| ali1234 | reverse engineering the hardware is what takes time | 21:55 |
| ali1234 | also QA testing | 21:56 |
| ali1234 | if you need it to actually work properly and not a hacker project, then multiply all timeframes by 5 | 21:56 |
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| bunk | jayrulez: Linux doesn't make it harder than necessary to port it to new hardware. | 21:56 |
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| jayrulez | I do not think so bunk. In fact, it might be easier on linux since there is already support for many SoCs that can be used as reference. | 21:59 |
| bunk | jayrulez: exactly | 22:01 |
| jayrulez | ...But the same could be said for other Kernels. | 22:02 |
| jayrulez | I was asking a question earlier bunk. What advantage would it have given RIM if they used Linux as opposed to QNX? | 22:03 |
| bunk | 23:30 < bunk> getting QNX to have the same functionality for a tablet as TI already delivers with the BSP for Linux was likely a lot of extra work, and the same will be true for all future SoCs supported | 22:08 |
| bunk | jayrulez: And what are the advantages of QNX over Linux for a tablet with 1 GB of RAM? | 22:09 |
| bunk | Legal aspects around "We don't like open source" (for whatever reason) are the only ones that come into my mind. | 22:10 |
| gabrbedd | jayrulez: Probably no advantage. RIM already owns QNX, TI gave them a QNX BSP, and since they're already making huge changes in their OS -- sticking with QNX means less work. | 22:11 |
| gabrbedd | jayrulez: Also, QNX is an RTOS, Linux isn't. | 22:11 |
| gabrbedd | jayrulez: They either would have had to buy RTOS support for Linux from some vendor or else add it themselves. | 22:12 |
| bunk | gabrbedd: Why is RTOS support relevant for a tablet? | 22:12 |
| jayrulez | Thanks gabrbedd. I understand the advantages of QNX. I was curious about the possible advantages of using Linux. | 22:13 |
| gabrbedd | jayrulez: Right now, I can't think of any advantage for RIM to switch to Linux. | 22:14 |
| gabrbedd | bunk: Maybe not so important for a tablet, but since they probably deem it important for their phone -- why do it different on the tablet? | 22:14 |
| bunk | gabrbedd: Same question here: Why is a RTOS important for a phone? | 22:16 |
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| gabrbedd | bunk: I'm not sure if I'm qualified to say. My hand-wavey answer is that an RTOS gives you guaranteed I/O response times. When performing mission-critical tasks (like a being on a call while browsing the internet)... an RTOS helps guard your critical processes against dumb bugs in resource-hogging processes. | 22:20 |
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| zenvoid | in my experience is quite the contrary, when using RT scheduling a bug in high priority thread can kill the whole OS, even on linux if you use RT patches | 22:24 |
| zenvoid | I use linux-rt on my main computer because I need it for jack (audio) | 22:26 |
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| zenvoid | for a car I guess is very important, just to be sure that the airbag does not explode 10ms later because the cpu is busy playing your favorite mp3 ;) | 22:34 |
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| special | zenvoid: but if you're going to die, you should at least die with skip-free audio. | 22:57 |
| CosmoHill | night night | 22:58 |
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| gabrbedd | zenvoid: linux-rt is not an RTOS. | 23:02 |
| gabrbedd | zenvoid: linux-rt allows for pre-emptable interrupts... something that you need in an RTOS. | 23:03 |
| gabrbedd | zenvoid: but allowing misc., non-critical, rogue apps to have RT-scheduling and hog the processor doesn't sound very RTOS-ey to me. | 23:04 |
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| gabrbedd | zenvoid: My understanding of most RTOS architectures is very much like a VM setup. The host OS has an RT-capable kernel and carefully crafted services and scheduling policies... | 23:05 |
| gabrbedd | zenvoid: and the guest OS (the one users interact with) is placed inside a jail. | 23:06 |
| zenvoid | gabrbedd: I have not said that linux-rt is an RTOS, I've said that a bug in a hight priority thread can kill the whole OS, *even* on linux-rt | 23:08 |
| zenvoid | I've also used RTAI and RTLinux, both of them are RTOS | 23:09 |
| zenvoid | and it is very easy to lock the system with an infinite loop bug in the RT part | 23:10 |
| zenvoid | requires reset button | 23:10 |
| zenvoid | not even the kernel is alowed to run | 23:10 |
| gabrbedd | zenvoid: Yes, I understand the dangers of RT-scheduling. What I said above was more or less, "I /think/ the architecture of an RTOS is to give RT-scheduling to system-critical stuff, and deny it to garden variety processes." | 23:12 |
| gabrbedd | I.e. jackd would not get RT. | 23:12 |
| gabrbedd | But yes, if you write a dumb bug in your system critical stuff... then you will lock everything up. | 23:13 |
| gabrbedd | The point is that there's a clear division between what is "system critcal" and what's not. | 23:13 |
| zenvoid | usually things that require RT are video and audio, at least in my case | 23:14 |
| zenvoid | and those are the most buggy apps | 23:14 |
| zenvoid | no idea what would require RT on a phone, though... | 23:15 |
| SpeedEvil | zenvoid: call audio processing | 23:16 |
| SpeedEvil | zenvoid: echo cancellation, for example | 23:16 |
| zenvoid | ah yeah, good poing | 23:16 |
| SpeedEvil | and making the menus scroll | 23:16 |
| zenvoid | lol | 23:17 |
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| zenvoid | well, android does it without RT :P | 23:17 |
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| zenvoid | the latency of recent kernels is very good, with RT patches it gets almost impossible to notice the difference from a real RTOS, exept it is not deterministic (the real latency can't be computed) | 23:20 |
| zenvoid | but it is usually not a problem | 23:20 |
| zenvoid | RTAI linux is a real RTOS but it is usually not worth the effort, I've never seen a case that it performs better that linux-rt | 23:21 |
| zenvoid | than | 23:21 |
| ali1234 | echo cancellation should be done on a DSP... you don't need RT kernel for that | 23:22 |
| ali1234 | you just let the DSP get on with it... i don't think android userspace can even get audio data | 23:23 |
| zenvoid | true | 23:24 |
| zenvoid | years ago i've made a driver for an HDLC card to work under RTAI, it was a painful experience, and it gains almost nothing compared to linux-rt or even a standard linux-preempt | 23:26 |
| zenvoid | in that time linux-rt did not exist, unfortunately | 23:29 |
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| SpeedEvil | ali1234: 'should' can add a dollar to the hardware | 23:39 |
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