Saturday, 2012-12-15

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archeyDevilHello. Anyone here know any great guides for getting mer/sailfish to run on the Nokia N900 ?07:10
* archeyDevil has a little bricking experience with the device so I'm not too afraid to brick it ;) Easy to fix. :)07:11
kulvearcheyDevil: have you checked the URLs inthe topic?07:11
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archeyDevilI thought I did; but I was thinking of #maemo; sorry.07:12
archeyDevilkulve: ^07:12
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* archeyDevil still can't find any guides for getting mer/sailfish on the N900?07:17
specialarcheyDevil: you probably want nemo07:18
specialthere are instructions for that at https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo/Installing#Nokia_N90007:18
archeyDevilspecial: I've seen that page before; It's installing to the SD card, I don't have any microSD card large enough for such. I need to install over Maemo.07:19
archeyDevilUndesired but I haven't access to larger SD cards.07:19
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specialah, I have no idea how to do that07:20
archeyDevil:(07:21
archeyDevilI'm awaiting for several SD cards. 1 for my r3.14, 1 for my eeepc, 3 for my N900; And yea. :P07:22
archeyDevilr3.14 -> Raspberry Pi (Habit; easier to type lol)07:22
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suosaaskiI would almost be interested in installing Nemo on my N9 but to be honest, I am kinda waiting for Sailfish UI if it becomes available, until then, I prefer the N9s UI.07:23
archeyDevilspecial: Any ideas on getting qemu to boot that image then?07:23
archeyDevilThat'd be enough for me; I just want to test it out. I don't need it on my phone exactly.07:23
specialwell, are you looking specifically for sailfish?07:24
archeyDevilspecial: sailfish afaik, looks/acts very much like nemo due to being based apon yes?07:25
archeyDevilSailfish isn't exactly available for what I can see/find. So I come here for the upstream.07:25
specialper sailfishos.org, sailfish SDK binaries aren't available until Q1 2013. Nemo is separate, and the UI is entirely different, but it's largely compatible07:26
suosaaskiarcheyDevil: sailfish has a completely different ui compared to nemo.07:26
suosaaski(at least as far as looks go)07:26
archeyDevilAhh. Okay07:26
specialif you want to try nemo in a VM, https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo/Installing#i586_Virtual_Machine07:26
archeyDevilspecial: Q1 meaning; jan-apr?07:27
suosaaskijan-mar07:28
archeyDevilspecial: Ehh. vBox.. Any images for qemu?07:28
archeyDevilsuosaaski: Thanks.07:28
suosaaskiq2 = apr-jun07:28
suosaaskiq3 = jul-sep, q4 = oct-dec07:29
archeyDevilOkay :)07:29
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* archeyDevil meant mar instead of apr lol.07:29
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archeyDevil10 min download for vm image. I suspect the image they have should work with qemu. Unless due to drivers, it should. :)07:31
archeyDevilor 4 minutes :)07:31
archeyDevilNice speeds today :D 700+Kbps07:31
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Stskeepszzz08:05
situMorning all08:08
Stskeepsmorn situ08:13
archeyDevilMorning...08:13
archeyDevilSat Dec 15 19:13:29 EST 201208:13
archeyDevilWelcome to the future ^^08:13
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suosaaskiWhy is it the future?08:16
suosaaskiand it's the past now.08:17
archeyDevilWill sailfish use a firefox-based browser?08:17
archeyDevilsuosaaski: Generally speaking I'm 11hrs in the future according to GMT :)08:17
archeyDevillol08:17
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archeyDevil10/1108:17
archeyDevilidk now cause I don't follow day light saving blah.08:18
suosaaskiok... it's 10:18 here :)08:18
archeyDevil19:18 [freenode] CTCP TIME reply from suosaaski: Sat Dec 15 10:18:55 201208:19
archeyDevil:P08:19
archeyDevilYou live in the past :D08:19
situStskeeps: I would like music was played at Sailfish launch as default ringtone on Jolla phones.08:19
Stskeepshehe08:19
Stskeepsi think most do :)08:19
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archeyDevilStskeeps: Yupp lol08:20
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BostikarcheyDevil: very likely not, as the core is geared towards Qt, and UI is QML; with Qt5 there will be [eventually] a full QtWebKit available08:27
BostikarcheyDevil: so having gecko side-by-side is probably an unnecessary duplication of engineering effort08:27
BostikarcheyDevil: do note that I do not, and CAN not speak for Jolla's intentions as I have no idea what they are08:28
archeyDevilBostik: Oh ofc.08:28
Stskeepsthough if you want to run even mosaic, you're welcome08:28
Stskeeps:P08:28
archeyDevilI keep forgetting this is QT land lol08:28
Stskeepsor gtk or moti08:28
Stskeepsf08:28
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sledgesgood mornin09:15
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SuperpelicanStskeeps:What's the recommended way to install g++ on Maemo 5 (Nokia N900)?09:20
SuperpelicanStskeeps:Don't want to destroy my Maemo OS09:20
Stskeepsthere's none, on-device compilation is not sane09:20
Stskeeps:P09:20
SuperpelicanStskeeps:So I can't compile on the go?09:21
SuperpelicanStskeeps: So this is not recommended:http://ossguy.com/?p=475 ?09:21
Stskeepsnot really, no09:22
Stskeepsyou can, but it may destroy your OS09:22
Stskeeps:P09:22
Stskeepsanyway, this is more of a #maemo question09:23
iekkumorning09:24
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Stskeepshello jo___09:50
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jo___hello Stskeeps09:52
Stskeepsjo___: welcome to #mer :) so what brings you here?09:52
jo___I was hoping to see some activity here and see if I can get some more info on jolla09:53
Stskeepssure, for jolla specific discussions, #jollamobile is good. Jolla's Sailfish consists of Mer Core, Nemo middleware (#nemomobile) and Sailfish UI09:54
Stskeepsas to maximize openness09:54
jo___yes i know that I have watch the jolla presentation09:55
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jo___Stskeeps: so are you part of the mer development team?09:58
Stskeepsyeah, i'm the project architect09:58
Stskeepsit's a seperate effort from Jolla, has it's own governance, etc :)09:58
jo___yes I have also read about mer09:59
jo___<Stskeeps> I have once watch a youtube video on mer on N90010:00
Stskeepsold or new mer, out of curiousity?10:00
Stskeepswe had two projects, one that was before meego, one that was after10:00
jo___The video was uploaded this year I guess it is the new one10:01
Stskeepsok, maybe10:01
Stskeepsso what do you hope to use mer for?10:01
jo___I'm not a developer but still I would have like to use it on my N90010:03
jo___atleast to test another OS on my N90010:04
Stskeeps:nod:10:05
Stskeepsyou can try out nemo mobile at least10:05
jo___I know a little about linux but i still don't fully get the difference between nemo and  mer10:06
Stskeepsmer is a core, so it gives building blocks10:07
Stskeepsnemo gives an actual ui10:07
jo___you mean mer consist of the linux kernel10:08
jo___if nemo is an actual ui, what about sailfish ui?10:08
Stskeepssailfish ui is an actual productized ui10:09
Stskeepsnemo is a ui made by community10:09
Stskeepsmer is kinda more like a set of libraries, system level stuff that gives ability to run 60fps qt/html5 applications10:09
jo___thanks for your help, it is very nice to come on a channel and to have a discussion with a project architect10:11
jo___I'm sure you do have a lot of other stuff to do10:11
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phaeronStskeeps: morning10:11
Stskeepsgood morning phaeron10:12
Stskeepsjo___: sure, feel free to ask questions at any time10:12
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jo___Currently what are the work in progress on Mer?10:16
Stskeepsjo___:  a lot of things, we keep packages updated, sdk working, work to integrate qt5, wayland10:16
Stskeepsand so on10:16
Stskeepsit's kinda dull but also costy work that it doesn't make sense for individual companies to do10:16
Stskeepsso we work together on it10:16
jo___I have some knowledge of linux, if I wanted to help what would you advise me?10:18
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Stskeepsin our bugtracker we have a lot of open task bugs, which are good to dive into10:18
Stskeepsand good to get your hands dirty with10:18
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Stskeepsphaeron: slept well?10:20
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phaeronsomewhat, this dry air is not friendly10:24
Stskeeps:nod:10:24
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phaeronStskeeps: so what's next for mds210:27
Stskeepswell, i think binary repos are probably next10:28
Stskeepsit's probably copy-and-paste from mds1 and perhaps some sanity checking10:28
phaeronok10:28
phaeronwill get on it10:28
phaeronand it should also dynamically lookup repos instead of having  them hardcoded in the mappings.xml10:29
phaeronright ?10:29
Stskeepswell, it just needs to look in obs-repos/ yeah10:29
kulvehmm.. how is touchscreen supposed to work with rotating the display with xrandr?10:29
Stskeepsusually the touchscreen coordinates should rotate too. in nemo we don't use xrandr as it's too slow for rotation animation (well, that was the cargo cult from nokia)10:31
kulveI thought too that ts should rotate as well, but doesn't for some reason.. Well, not urgent now10:32
Stskeepsare you on -evdev or -mtev?10:32
kulve-mtev10:32
Stskeepsok10:33
kulvehow about vsync with PA? Is there simple way of "just enabling" it..?10:35
kulveor double buffering actually10:35
Stskeepshmm, that's a good question10:35
kulveor is that x driver specific?10:35
Stskeepsthe way we have sane vsync in nemo is because of the GLES driver paying attention to it10:36
Stskeepssince many PA apps may actually be sw rendering, i'm unsure / i don't know how kwin works10:36
kulveI did see some tearing with nemo when panning the main view but with e.g. PA browser, it's tearing a lot. Also I'm seeing some polygon like tearing so I think it could be using gles for something10:38
Stskeepsalso that we fullscreen apps for a reason, as to be able to just flip buffers to screen10:38
kulvealso there's a daemon called kwinactive_gles (not sure if that's a window manager..)10:38
Stskeepsshouldn't really be that bad on a n7 though..10:38
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kulvevgrade: do you happen to know how the video playback works with PA? Does it use gstreamer and if yes, what component chooses the video sink?11:48
kulvei.e. what do I need to patch11:48
phaeronStskeeps: so what's the test case. first I need a repo in binaries path. right ?11:50
Stskeepsyeah11:51
Stskeepsyou can just rsync one down - test that you can build against a specific mer tag i guess11:51
phaeroncleaned up the code while copying it11:51
Stskeepssuch as 0.2012fooblah.0.111:51
phaeronbuilding will probably come later11:51
phaeronI need to test it with curl first11:51
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* Stskeeps seemingily has to go to IKEA now11:54
Stskeepswill be on n9511:54
Stskeeps011:54
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phaeronStskeeps: enjoy12:00
kulveMer release 0.2011 (Mer)12:08
Stskeepsyea.. :P12:10
Stskeepsneed to find a better way to generate that12:10
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vgradekulve: sent you an email with some contacts for PA12:25
kulvevgrade: just noticed, thanks12:25
vgradekulve: I know kwin has different code paths depending on the gles renderer12:25
vgradekulve: it may be that the tegra renderer needs adding12:26
kulveyou did continue in a bit odd mail thread? :)12:27
vgradewell got your email from that list12:28
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vgradekulve: video is via QtMultimedia I think but I've onl seen it working on x8612:28
Bostikeven qtmultimedia uses gstreamer as the backend, I believe12:30
vgradeBostik: I think stock qtmultimedia needs a patch to set the right sink for tegra video12:31
Bostikoh, that's good to know12:32
vgradeat least it did for tegra212:33
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Bostikoh my, Islay christmas blend is delicious12:33
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kulvevgrade: I did same for tegra312:43
vgradekulve: did you lookup that bug ref I gave12:47
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SuperpelicanStskeeps:You said on-device development isn't sane on Maemo. But is it on Mer(will it be on Jolla :) )?15:26
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ali1234it's better on mer15:45
ali1234though it depends what you mean: are you looking for fully on device IDE, or just building on the target and editing on ssh from a real computer?15:46
Superpelicanali1234:Primary building on target, but a decent IDE won't hurt either15:46
ali1234well user apps like IDEs are the job of whatever builds on top of mer15:48
ali1234but installing toolchains etc on to the device should be quite easy since OBS requires them to be packaged anyway15:49
ali1234and if they are packaged then they should be installable15:49
ali1234maemo was crazy because the default way to build for it was cross compilers and scratchbox (1)15:49
Bostik...and the fact that in order to (re)build a good chunk of maemo software you needed nokia-proprietary (iow. not public) headers and/or libs15:50
Bostikbeen there, done that, not long enough to have scarred the wounds...15:51
Stskeeps15:53
Nicd-15:54
Sfiet_Konstantin15:56
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SuperpelicanBostik, ali1234:Is that nokia-proprietary stuff also needed for building Qt-based apps for the N900 (without Hildon etc.)?16:07
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Stskeepstechnically, the gles headers16:10
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Stskeepsphaeron: back17:05
phaeronStskeeps: wb17:05
Stskeepsphaeron: so where are we at by now?17:05
phaeron  /build stuff should be done17:07
Stskeepsok17:08
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Stskeepsi suppose since we're so fast with lookup by now, simply running lastevents on all packages when a branch is updated makes sense somehow?17:08
Stskeepsunless we want to do more intelligence than that17:08
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phaeronwhat kind of intelligence, I was thinking we just pregen the stuff at startup and everytime there is an update17:09
phaeronalso same for mappings cache17:10
phaeronalso is there a map of the API we want to support ? not sure what is missing right now17:11
Stskeepswell, we have to indicate to the remote obs that a (source) package has updated, as an example, or a repo has updated17:11
Stskeepswell, the api that's in mds1 at least17:11
phaeronwhich is not very well documented :D17:12
Stskeepspoint17:12
phaeronok will read the code and extract17:12
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phaeronlastevents is just a sequence number, right ?17:13
Stskeepsyes17:13
Stskeepsand whatu pdated, what kind of event, etc17:13
phaeronfor tags it wouldn't change.17:14
phaeronFor "latest" and similar it would17:15
Stskeepsyes17:15
phaeronbut unlike a real obs it wouldn't change randomly17:15
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StskeepsSfiet_Konstantin: you do know of Maui, right?17:22
Sfiet_Konstantinyep17:22
Stskeepsok17:22
Sfiet_Konstantinsounds interesting17:22
Stskeepshow is that different from JADE?17:22
Stskeeps:P17:22
Sfiet_Konstantinbut never look at the code17:22
Sfiet_KonstantinJADE was a discussion :D17:22
Stskeepsit's qt5, wayland and qtquick217:22
Stskeeps:P17:22
Sfiet_Konstantinand I don't want it to be desktop oriented17:22
Stskeepsalright17:22
Sfiet_KonstantinI want it to be hybrid17:23
Sfiet_Konstantinor even full touch17:23
Sfiet_Konstantinbut more tablet17:23
Sfiet_Konstantinrather than smartphone17:23
Sfiet_KonstantinPlasma active is not convincing me17:23
Stskeeps:nod:17:24
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Sfiet_Konstantinwill try to produce some code one day17:25
Sfiet_Konstantinmaybe when I finished my studies17:25
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Sfiet_Konstantinha18:42
Sfiet_Konstantinmaui's hawaii desktop uses stuff from KDE18:42
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Stskeepswell, mer uses kcalcore too19:22
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Sfiet_Konstantinreally ?19:56
Stskeepssure19:56
Stskeepsbut not kdelibs19:57
Sfiet_KonstantinI thought that these KDE libs were quite glued together19:57
Sfiet_Konstantinyeah, kdelibs is too fat19:57
Sfiet_Konstantin(from now)19:57
Stskeepssome aren't, i guess19:57
Sfiet_KonstantinKF5 is what we need :)19:59
* Stskeeps is reading http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2012/12/14/unamerican-mccarthyist-cancer.html20:00
Sfiet_KonstantinStskeeps: what does that comes from ?20:01
Stskeepsthink i picked it up on reddit20:02
Sfiet_Konstantinneed to try reddit one day20:03
Stskeepsdon't, if you value your free time20:03
Stskeeps:P20:03
Sfiet_Konstantinnever found how it works really, but I picked some Jolla sstuff on it20:03
Sfiet_Konstantinah20:03
Sfiet_Konstantinok20:03
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Sfiet_KonstantinStskeeps: interesting article20:06
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Stskeepsgood morning lpotter20:13
lpottermorning20:13
situReading article too, thanks Stskeeps20:14
* Stskeeps is no way a gnubie, fwiw :P20:16
Stskeepsjust interesting history20:16
Sfiet_Konstantinindeed20:16
Sfiet_Konstantinit is not even about gni or not, more about corporate decisions20:16
* lpotter missed it20:20
* Stskeeps is reading http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2012/12/14/unamerican-mccarthyist-cancer.html (from earlier)20:21
situProbably Canonical is on the way to face a boycott.20:24
Stskeepsi dunno.. things are definately changing in the linux world20:25
situSystemd is not supported on Ubuntu20:25
Stskeepswell, they have upstart20:25
lpottercool. he quotes Dead Kennedys20:25
situYes, but Systemd people chose not to support Ubuntu.20:25
Stskeepsit's rather reverse20:26
Stskeeps(i think)20:26
Stskeepsi might be wrong20:26
Stskeepsin practice bigger linux distributions have gotten so complex it's hard to change course20:27
Stskeepsthey had the right idea in ubuntu core but really never followed through on what it means in practice20:28
Stskeeps(imho)20:28
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Stskeepsevening faenil20:32
faenilo/ master20:32
faenilgot something I can port to BB10? I'm on a porting spree, lol20:33
Stskeepslinux?20:33
Stskeeps:P20:33
faenilahahah :D20:34
faenilvery nice answer :)20:34
* lpotter needs to try and update his bb10 thingy20:35
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situStskeeps: What do you think about QNX ?20:36
Stskeepsit's a microkernel so that's good, but they have same hardware adaptation issues as any other non-Linux - the hardware adaptations aren't made for those devices20:37
faenillpotter, if you only use Qt, and not Cascades, get ready for some showstopping bugs20:38
lpotterI know. sadly20:39
situ"QNX technology concept car" what ?20:40
lpotterbut their priority i casesority is cascades20:40
situhttp://www.qnx.com/news/events/ces2013.html?tC=banner&tE=clicked&tA=ces20135dec201220:40
Stskeepswell, i'd use QNX in an engine..20:41
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M4rtinKIIRC, QNX is used quite lot in the industry20:45
M4rtinKin cars, planes, etc.20:45
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M4rtinKI've also seen a mention about the Cisco licencing (a part of ?) QNX for IOS20:46
M4rtinKon a related note, I wonder when someone does a mobile device running VxWorks :)20:52
M4rtinKthey already made a few wheeled ones though :)20:53
jayrulezI have the source to QNX from 200921:00
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bunkVxWorks and QNX are alternatives to Linux in industrial devices where the worst-case real-time performance is extremely important.21:07
bunkFor handsets and infotainment devices (which are what Mer targets) a RTOS doesn't really bring any benefits.21:09
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jayrulezQNX is general purpose21:09
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bunkI know, and I also know what BlackBerry is doing with it21:18
bunkbut it doesn't make that much sense since the strengths of QNX are in other areas21:21
jayrulezWhat does not make much sense?21:21
bunkusing a RTOS for a tablet21:23
jayrulezIt makes sense in RIM's case.21:24
bunkWhy?21:25
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jayrulezLess maintenance overhead.21:25
bunkWhy that?21:26
jayrulezOnly maintaining the QNX stack rather than a Linux stack and a QNX stack.21:26
jayrulezThey are already maintaining QNX for industrial customers and car manufacturers.21:26
jayrulezAlso, QNX is much smaller than Linux.21:27
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bunkkernel size is irrelevant on a device with 1 GB RAM21:28
jayrulezQNX is optimized for embedded devices with tight memory constraints.21:29
jayrulezI am talking about the size of the source code.21:29
bunkgetting QNX to have the same functionality for a tablet as TI already delivers with the BSP for Linux was likely a lot of extra work, and the same will be true for all future SoCs supported21:30
bunksource code size of the kernel itself doesn't matter either21:30
jayrulezQNX supported some TI BSPs even before RIM acquired QSS.21:31
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jayrulezAlso, adding new BSP support is not a huge task as I've seen a small team of about 3 people do it in a couple of months while working on other tasks.21:32
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bunkThat depends on the functionalities required and on how much was already supported before.21:34
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jayrulezWhat advantages would using linux bring?21:35
bunk"3 people do it in a couple of months while working on other tasks" sounds like a realistic estimate for porting a vendor BSP to a slightly different custum hardware using the same Soc.21:37
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bunkcreating a BSP with all functionalities required for a tablet takes insane amounts of man years21:38
jayrulezhttp://community.qnx.com/sf/wiki/do/viewPage/projects.bsp/wiki/BSPAndDrivers21:39
jayrulezPlease read this article, quite interesting: http://genode.org/documentation/articles/pandaboard21:40
ali1234depends if they have documentation21:43
ali1234porting a (open source/documented) BSP to a different board with the same SoC is a weekend job for one person21:45
bunkali1234: Depends on the differences between the boards and the required functionality.21:47
ali1234since they both use the same SoC the differences will largely consist of "on board A the power LED is on GPIO 19, on board B it is on GPIO 23"21:48
bunkJust like the "3 people do it in a couple of months while working on other tasks" does likely not include writing ltimedia and 3D support from scratch.21:49
jayrulezNo, it does not.21:50
bunkali1234: there's much fun e.g. with components on the board not supported by Linux at all or only with a 3 years old buggy driver21:50
ali12343 people and a couple of months would be a reasonable timeframe for a slightly different SoC from the same vendor and no documentation at all21:50
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bunk"no documentation at all" makes it hard to get it done at all21:52
ali1234or perhaps a totally different SoC, documented, and with a standard widely used 3d core21:52
ali1234no documentation at all is what the people putting android on windows mobile devices ever had, it normally took them a couple of months for each new device, and was mainly done by 4-5 people.21:53
bunkthat's usually with full Soc documentation and that SoC already reasonably supported under Linux21:54
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ali1234lol21:54
ali1234full SoC documentation from qualcomm given to hackers?21:54
jayrulezI was not talking about Linux :)21:55
ali1234it was actually done by disassembling the windows mobile drivers and other reverse engineering techniques21:55
ali1234anyway, the operating systems involved do not matter21:55
ali1234reverse engineering the hardware is what takes time21:55
ali1234also QA testing21:56
ali1234if you need it to actually work properly and not a hacker project, then multiply all timeframes by 521:56
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bunkjayrulez: Linux doesn't make it harder than necessary to port it to new hardware.21:56
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jayrulezI do not think so bunk. In fact, it might be easier on linux since there is already support for many SoCs that can be used as reference.21:59
bunkjayrulez: exactly22:01
jayrulez...But the same could be said for other Kernels.22:02
jayrulezI was asking a question earlier bunk. What advantage would it have given RIM if they used Linux as opposed to QNX?22:03
bunk23:30 < bunk> getting QNX to have the same functionality for a tablet as TI  already delivers with the BSP for Linux was likely a lot of extra  work, and the same will be true for all future SoCs supported22:08
bunkjayrulez: And what are the advantages of QNX over Linux for a tablet with 1 GB of RAM?22:09
bunkLegal aspects around "We don't like open source" (for whatever reason) are the only ones that come into my mind.22:10
gabrbeddjayrulez: Probably no advantage. RIM already owns QNX, TI gave them a QNX BSP, and since they're already making huge changes in their OS -- sticking with QNX means less work.22:11
gabrbeddjayrulez: Also, QNX is an RTOS, Linux isn't.22:11
gabrbeddjayrulez: They either would have had to buy RTOS support for Linux from some vendor or else add it themselves.22:12
bunkgabrbedd: Why is RTOS support relevant for a tablet?22:12
jayrulezThanks gabrbedd. I understand the advantages of QNX. I was curious about the possible advantages of using Linux.22:13
gabrbeddjayrulez: Right now, I can't think of any advantage for RIM to switch to Linux.22:14
gabrbeddbunk: Maybe not so important for a tablet, but since they probably deem it important for their phone -- why do it different on the tablet?22:14
bunkgabrbedd: Same question here: Why is a RTOS important for a phone?22:16
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gabrbeddbunk: I'm not sure if I'm qualified to say. My hand-wavey answer is that an RTOS gives you guaranteed I/O response times.  When performing mission-critical tasks (like a being on a call while browsing the internet)... an RTOS helps guard your critical processes against dumb bugs in resource-hogging processes.22:20
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zenvoidin my experience is quite the contrary, when using RT scheduling a bug in high priority thread can kill the whole OS, even on linux if you use RT patches22:24
zenvoidI use linux-rt on my main computer because I need it for jack (audio)22:26
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zenvoidfor a car I guess is very important, just to be sure that the airbag does not explode 10ms later because the cpu is busy playing your favorite mp3 ;)22:34
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specialzenvoid: but if you're going to die, you should at least die with skip-free audio.22:57
CosmoHillnight night22:58
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gabrbeddzenvoid: linux-rt is not an RTOS.23:02
gabrbeddzenvoid: linux-rt allows for pre-emptable interrupts... something that you need in an RTOS.23:03
gabrbeddzenvoid: but allowing misc., non-critical, rogue apps to have RT-scheduling and hog the processor doesn't sound very RTOS-ey to me.23:04
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gabrbeddzenvoid: My understanding of most RTOS architectures is very much like a VM setup. The host OS has an RT-capable kernel and carefully crafted services and scheduling policies...23:05
gabrbeddzenvoid: and the guest OS (the one users interact with) is placed inside a jail.23:06
zenvoidgabrbedd: I have not said that linux-rt is an RTOS, I've said that a bug in a hight priority thread can kill the whole OS, *even* on linux-rt23:08
zenvoidI've also used RTAI and RTLinux, both of them are RTOS23:09
zenvoidand it is very easy to lock the system with an infinite loop bug in the RT part23:10
zenvoidrequires reset button23:10
zenvoidnot even the kernel is alowed to run23:10
gabrbeddzenvoid: Yes, I understand the dangers of RT-scheduling. What I said above was more or less, "I /think/ the architecture of an RTOS is to give RT-scheduling to system-critical stuff, and deny it to garden variety processes."23:12
gabrbeddI.e. jackd would not get RT.23:12
gabrbeddBut yes, if you write a dumb bug in your system critical stuff... then you will lock everything up.23:13
gabrbeddThe point is that there's a clear division between what is "system critcal" and what's not.23:13
zenvoidusually things that require RT are video and audio, at least in my case23:14
zenvoidand those are the most buggy apps23:14
zenvoidno idea what would require RT on a phone, though...23:15
SpeedEvilzenvoid: call audio processing23:16
SpeedEvilzenvoid: echo cancellation, for example23:16
zenvoidah yeah, good poing23:16
SpeedEviland making the menus scroll23:16
zenvoidlol23:17
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zenvoidwell, android does it without RT :P23:17
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zenvoidthe latency of recent kernels is very good, with RT patches it gets almost impossible to notice the difference from a real RTOS, exept it is not deterministic (the real latency can't be computed)23:20
zenvoidbut it is usually not a problem23:20
zenvoidRTAI linux is a real RTOS but it is usually not worth the effort, I've never seen a case that it performs better that linux-rt23:21
zenvoidthan23:21
ali1234echo cancellation should be done on a DSP... you don't need RT kernel for that23:22
ali1234you just let the DSP get on with it... i don't think android userspace can even get audio data23:23
zenvoidtrue23:24
zenvoidyears ago i've made a driver for an HDLC card to work under RTAI, it was a painful experience, and it gains almost nothing compared to linux-rt or even a standard linux-preempt23:26
zenvoidin that time linux-rt did not exist, unfortunately23:29
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SpeedEvilali1234: 'should' can add a dollar to the hardware23:39
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