Friday, 2011-12-16

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dcthangwhat "zzz" means? :-)06:36
Stskeepssound you make when you're asleep :P06:36
dcthanghah :P06:37
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* w00t stabs things06:54
* Stskeeps passes w00t the coffee06:54
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Stskeepsmorn mingwandroid08:52
mingwandroidwhat's new?08:52
Stskeepsgetting closer to finishing up the toolchain upgrade.. ran into a bad mix of glibc and new qemu, which i'm fixing today08:53
mingwandroidupdating glibc?08:53
Stskeepsnah, but recall that each time you modify toolchain, etc, glibc will rebuild08:54
Stskeepsdoing linux core's is a bit like playing jenga08:54
Stskeepsdo one thing and the entire thing falls apart08:54
lbtmorning all08:54
mingwandroidchicken and egg too I guess..08:54
Stskeepsmorn lbt08:54
Stskeepslbt: can i ask you to look into what's going on with - no logs showing and build job seems stuck08:55
mingwandroidwould be good if there was a way of tracking everything needed for a tc upgrade, just so I can see exactly what's involved..08:56
Stskeepsyeah, usually you first know after you've dumped in the new tolchain08:56
Stskeepsbecause that's when you see the fallout08:56
mingwandroid..but I guess the project's so active that it'd be out of date by the time it's done.08:57
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mingwandroidhas all this tc stuff held up a release?08:57
Stskeepsnah, it was needed anyway08:58
Stskeepsnot having tc upgrade was worse08:58
Stskeepswe were stuck on qtwebkit 2.1, wanting to go to 2.2, armv6 glib failed randomly and stopped CI, so spending time on it matters08:59
mingwandroidyeah bitrot.08:59
Stskeepsmingwandroid: i am pondering to do an experiment where we effectively split mer into core and toolchain, which i think you might find interesting08:59
Stskeepswhere the core is effectively always cross compiled08:59
mingwandroidyeah, definitely sounds good.09:00
Stskeepsso i'm doing some initial moves towards that - when i put mer together initially, i made a list of what was the self-hosting set of packages09:00
mingwandroidalthough having the option to not cross if people want is good too (incase cross breaks).09:00
Stskeepsyeah, that's where SB2 comes in09:00
Stskeepsit'll feel like a full environment09:01
Stskeepsit can run target binaries09:01
mingwandroidis it a qemu chroot env?09:01
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Stskeepsbut it's capable of basically doing a full ./configure without target being self-hosted09:04
mingwandroidis it some sort of mixed env then? e.g. some things run through qemu others dont? I've got to admit to being a bit lost.09:06
Stskeepsso, imagine you are a program - SB2 goes in and hooks into everything that has to do with file access/paths and execution of programs09:07
Stskeepsso it can alter reality, basically, making some things run with X86 binaries, redirect paths, some things run with ARM binaries09:07
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mingwandroidok, a bit like a root kit?09:08
Stskeepskinda, but not malicious ;)09:08
mingwandroida kindly rootkit then.09:09
mingwandroidhow diverged is our qemu from the mainline? I was wanting to start hacking on qemu, all my side projects seem to point to it as a fun thing to do..09:09
Stskeepsi'm using qemu-linaro at the moment plus a reverted patch09:10
Stskeepsso not terribly diverged09:10
mingwandroidah yeah, you mentioned. great. was thinking of looking at opengl accel under windows (yeah, sorry) with ANGLE.09:12
Stskeepsdid you ever see the dgles work the maemo guys?09:13
lbtStskeeps: every run is failing the same way09:13
Stskeepslbt: lovely09:13
mingwandroidis that desktop to es conversion?09:14
Stskeepses to desktop09:14
Stskeepslbt: awkward09:14
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mingwandroidah right. You seen angle? Chromium uses it. ANGLE emulates openGL an GLES using directX.09:15
Stskeepsanything in src server?09:15
Stskeepsmingwandroid: ah09:15
Stskeepsthat might be useful too09:15
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mingwandroidbuild mer on windows? ;-)09:15
Stskeepsdoes it need something on target side?09:15
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Stskeepsnah, for VMs and such09:15
mingwandroidyeah. and Qt as well.09:16
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Stskeepsi guess you could do gles -> ANGLE09:16
Stskeepsfrom the qemu work the maemo guys did09:17
Stskeepslbt: anything in src server?/repserver?09:17
lbtnothing glaring09:17
mingwandroiddid the maemo qemu work make it into mainline?09:18
Stskeepsmingwandroid: uncertain09:18
mingwandroidok, something for me to hunt down then.09:18
lbt"400 remote error: /var/cache/obs/worker//root_4/.build.log  No such file or directory" .. appears in both the rep_ and src_server logs09:21
Stskeepsit happens both to xorg-x11-server and xorg-x11-server-fbdev-sgx, fwiw09:22
lbtsince when ?09:23
Stskeepssince this morning09:23
lbtI see something about an OBS ugreade09:23
lbtlast week09:23
Stskeepsfirst saw it now09:24
lbthas it built before?09:24
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lbtit's stalling in getbinaries()09:32
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* Stskeeps looks at fakeobs09:33
lbtyeah... wondering that myself now09:34
Stskeepsrestarted fakeobs09:35
lbtah .. hence the nasty log entry?09:35
mingwandroidbbiab, work09:35
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Stskeepsshouldn't be09:36
lbtI think it appeared when you restarted09:37
lbtnb .. logrotate is a good thing09:37
Stskeepsseems to build now, yeah09:38
Stskeepsok, so fakeobs has some kind of request stalling problem then09:39
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lbt_awayback in a few hrs10:20
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Stskeepswhere do i find qtwebkit 2.2.1?10:26
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sebsauer_Stskeeps: Qt 4.8.0 ships with QtWebKit 2.2.110:28
Stskeepswithin the tarball?..10:28
alteregoShould do10:28
* alterego checks10:28
* Stskeeps gets out the baseball bat10:29
alteregoShould be under src/3rdparty/webkit10:31
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alteregoDo you think we have a need for some technical documentation on Mer10:50
alteregoLike, architecture, main modules, etc.10:50
alteregoStskeeps, Sage ^10:51
Stskeepswe do, but we also need simple guides on how to get started10:51
Stskeepsarchitecture.. we have an architecture?10:51
alteregoStskeeps: well, I mean having a clear list of things like ofono, gstreamer, pulse audio, etc.10:51
alteregoStuff that is actually in Mer10:52
alteregoIf you mocked up a list of simple guide subjects, I'll look in to making some.10:52
StskeepsMaking a Mer image is a good start10:52
Stskeepswe simply don't have that atm10:52
alteregoI think now would be a good time to start getting the documentation/publications in place that would be useful for customers.10:53
Stskeepsregarding architecture, the reason i don't believe in that is
alteregoI was thinking slightly higher level.10:54
Stskeepsyeah, i know10:54
Stskeepslet's start from bottom, what we need in order to scale operations10:55
alteregoLike: Linux | System | Services | Custom UX (QML, HTML5, Whatever)10:55
Stskeepssame tools people will use in companies, making images, making packages, making obs'es, etc10:55
alteregoOkay, good.10:55
* Sage would like to cut down the bash deps10:56
alteregoThis will be good for me, because I want to learn this stuff so I can write and learn ;)10:56
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alteregoThat diagram would be a lot easiewr to read if you hide the rather implicit glibc dependency ;)10:56
alteregoIs that a reflection of everything that's in mer?10:57
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Stskeepsit's a reflection of the very base system10:57
Stskeepsfrom long time ago10:57
alteregoAh, I see, so it lacks the "middle" layer, ofono, gst, x11 and greater10:58
* alterego sees dbus and shudders.10:58
alteregoIs that really a core facility now? :D10:59
Stskeeps(warning, big png)10:59
Stskeepsdbus activation10:59
alteregoAre the boxes indicating the size of the package?11:00
Stskeepsdependancies it uses, or something11:00
alteregoCool diagram though :)11:00
Stskeepsi need to generate another one at some point11:01
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alteregoIs that left over spam?11:04
Stskeepsi'd think so11:04
* alterego deletes11:04
* Stskeeps waits for qtwebkit to check out11:05
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BostikStskeeps: go grab a brew then11:06
Bostikit takes quite a while11:06
StskeepsBostik: i am already glancing at my martini bottle11:07
Bostikgood man11:08
dcthangfor the qtwebkit, I built it and had one error:
dcthangit sounds confusing for the conifguration11:09
Stskeepssounds like qt install needed?11:09
Stskeepsor qt 4.8.11:09
dcthangNo, I build it from qt5 repo11:09
w00twebkit isn't even remotely ready for qt5 (yet)11:09
dcthangother modules are fine except that11:10
Bostikdcthang: qtwebkit doesn't build against qt5 yet11:10
dcthangokay, so have to leave it there and jump to next step11:10
* dcthang grap qtwebkit from webkit site11:10
Bostikone of our co-workers has hacked together an ├╝berkludge local-build-only voodoo system where webkit trunk builds against qt5 but nothing is stable there :)11:11
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alteregoAre we going to rename "MeeGo-Image-Creator" to "Mer-Image-Creator" ?11:15
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dcthangBostik Can u explain ├╝berkludge means?11:16
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Bostikdcthang: utterly horrible, badly/misleadingly/non-at-all documented, depends on manual steps which may change without warning, hard or nearly impossible to reproduce outside that single system due to completely untracked dependencies ... and even then works more by hot air and prayers than technological advances11:20
Stskeepsalterego: MIC now is called mic11:21
Stskeepswell, mic211:21
Stskeepsalterego: don't do something very specific for 'mic2' as there's a new tool published11:21
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dcthangok Bostik, very detail explain...11:22
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alteregoStskeeps: will it still use .ks files?11:24
alteregoOr something new?11:24
Stskeepsit's basically rewritten mic2, i think11:24
alteregoWell, it's hard to write a guide on building images without using mic right now :P11:24
Stskeepsask sage for hints / review11:24
Stskeepsjust make one for mic211:24
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Stskeepsthen we can adjust11:25
Sagemic is able to use pretty much same .ks file than mic211:25
Sageonly difference atm. is that mic is not able to read the cmdline comment that is on the first line of .ks file11:25
alteregoWell, I'm documenting mic2 now, what this new tool called?11:26
alteregoSounds like regression :P11:26
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StskeepsSage: so how good is mic you think?12:25
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SageStskeeps: it seems almost as good as mic212:50
SageStskeeps: wy?12:50
Stskeepsjust pondering, i guess i should move to it too12:51
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SageStskeeps: Because mic is able to do the image without any bootstrap hazzle or at least it seems so to me I really recommend it.12:56
Sagejust cleaned my tmp dirs to check if that is true12:57
vgradeStskeeps, thanks, saw the announcement on the razor-qt list. Pity we can't take the set of packages straight from opensuse OBS12:57
StskeepsSage: autoconf and automake12:58
Sagenot in n900 image12:59
* Sage boots on ia3212:59
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SageStskeeps: automake -> libtool -> libtool-ltdl -> pulseaudio13:01
Sageah, packaging error from me.13:02
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Stskeepsi'll merge after things finish building :)13:09
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BostikStskeeps: I just pushed a completely redone and rebased qtquick3d fix for qt5 packaging; it requires that you remove and recreate the qt5/qtquick3d directory (remove, git-pull; ./init-repository -f)13:20
Bostikthe upstream repo address has changed and all the development had been going on in the new one...13:21
Sagevgrade: why we can't take set of packages from opensuse obs?13:22
Sagevgrade: just wait a moment :)13:26
Sagelbt_away, X-Fade: Files could not be expanded: service daemon error: connect to Connection refused13:28
SageStskeeps: erased all the known bootstrap things and mic was still able to create image without meego repos13:30
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Stskeepsok, nice13:32
Stskeepseven armv7hl?13:32
Stskeepsand armv7hl isn't in your local rpm13:32
SageI have default rpm from f1513:33
Stskeepsi think that has armv7hl in rpmrc, doesn't it?13:34
vgradeSage, the spec files also needed to be edited to add the correct package names13:37
vgradeyou need to add a %if 0%{?Mer} to each package13:39
Sagevgrade: yes13:41
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* Stskeeps yawns17:58
damnshockgood morning Stskeeps :P17:58
Stskeepsmorn damnshock17:58
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* IanWizard-Cloud is loving how ICS is turning out.18:53
Stskeepsand ICS the company or the android ICS18:53
IanWizard-CloudAndroid is finally getting to a decent phone OS.18:53
Stskeepstook 4 releases, scary18:53
Stskeeps(at least)18:54
IanWizard-Cloud(I don't want to offend anyone, but I try to analyze various merits of different platforms, to try to design the perfect platform in my head :) )18:55
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: oh, well more than that.18:55
Stskeepsthere's nothing wrong in checking out the competition :)18:55
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: 2.1 (where I came in), 2.2, and 2.3 where all very distinctive.  And 3.x was tablet only version...18:55
befordheh, it took like 27GB of disk to compile android 4 on my desktop18:56
IanWizard-Cloudbeford: yeah, it's not great all around, but at least from UX / features wise, it's beginning to get there.18:56
IanWizard-CloudPlayed with a Galaxy Nexus yesterday, plastic compared to my Vivid.18:57
IanWizard-CloudLiterally, my Vivid has a metal back, and the nexus practically has a backless dress.18:57
Stskeepsproducts are hard to make, though i'm sometimes astonished with how well the designers from chinese companies are getting18:58
IanWizard-CloudBut to be honest, I could foresee it overtaking the iPhone, as the "every teenage girl and businessman"has one phone.18:59
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: Google designed it from the ground up, software and hardware, to avoid patent "issues" from Crapple.18:59
IanWizard-CloudApple makes really really good... headphones.19:00
IanWizard-CloudAnd then they over charge for them, by about double.19:00
IanWizard-CloudSay, is there more to the Wiki than I found, or is it really just that small at the beginning of this project?19:01
Stskeepswiki's a bit small, we document as we go19:01
Stskeepsi mean, we announced in what, late october?19:01
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: yeah, guess I can just catch up here :)19:01
Stskeepsas with most coders, documentation has a tendancy to become second priority19:02
IanWizard-CloudI would love to help out, but coming on here is about all I have time for till about February.19:02
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: true dat.19:02
Stskeepsany contribution is welcome19:02
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: What's your take on Alien Dalvik?19:03
IanWizard-CloudIs it a consideration?19:03
IanWizard-CloudBecause I know it was slated for MeeGo 1.3, which I was quite looking forward to...19:04
Stskeepswell, i think they just wanted to post it for OEMs on top of meego 1.319:04
Stskeepsit was never OSS so it could never come to meego 1.319:04
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: ohh... I thought it was.19:05
Stskeepsi'm personally a bit peeved about the android thing and the various runtimes.. long story short, a guy from canonical made it actually work on top of a ubuntu runtime19:05
Stskeepsbut decided to never release code and got moral quabbles due to android not being 'as open'19:06
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: I must ask (perhaps you know, or perhaps not, you don't seem to be that familiar with And), why can't we just take the framework out of Android (all that really distinguishes it), and put it in wherever we like (much like Mer is talking about).19:06
Stskeepsimagine how the world would have looked if there had been a oss android runtime usable on normal glibc since 2009 :)19:06
* IanWizard-Cloud shudders to think.19:07
Stskeepsso, there's two issues 1) you can't call it Android 2) i'm not sure if there's -actually- any issues running it on top of glibc19:07
Stskeepsjust that anyone who manages to do it, will be more likely to capitalise on it instead19:08
IanWizard-CloudAs far as I can see, no, as far as I'm concerned.. Android is just another framework, just like QT19:08
Stskeepsyeah, it's just another runtime19:09
Stskeepspersonally, i'd like to see PhoneGap on Mer19:09
IanWizard-CloudAnd "not as open"???   If it's not open, then we open it for them..  Hackers are the can openers of software :P19:09
Stskeepsand Tizen HTML5 api alongside too19:09
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: I thought that we were doing our own (I thought much like Tizen).19:10
IanWizard-CloudAnd if we have a simple HTML API, then I imagine that PhoneGap wiil be quick to jump on that.19:10
Stskeepsnah, why not share the ecosystems19:10
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StskeepsPhoneGap is already compiled for MeeGo Harmattan19:11
Stskeepsie, probably simple to put on Mer19:11
Stskeepswe have qtwebkit19:11
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: yes, but..... basically, aren't we already doing that?19:11
Stskeepsin which sense?19:11
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: an HTML5 API (whether using Tizen's or our own)19:13
Stskeepswe're not going to make a html5 api, we're going to reuse other's and make them work on top of mer19:14
Stskeepsfor example, implementing PhoneGap on top of qtwebkit so phonegap apps will work without issues19:14
Stskeepsor take in the tizen runtime19:15
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: I thought that Mer was basically Tizen, but more focused (just the core), more open and friendly, and less fog everywhere.19:15
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* IanWizard-Cloud wonders about AIR...19:16
Stskeepstizen doesn't exist in public, so it's hard to tell - mer's basically a derived from meego core, shaped into a smaller core19:16
Stskeepsbasically a continuation of meego 1.319:16
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: yeah...19:16
StskeepsTizen looks to be a "brand" that means you support HTML5+WAC+Tizen "services"19:16
Stskeepsand the underlying implementation can differ19:16
Stskeepsmy own bet is that Intel uses something meego/moblin-derived, Samsung uses their ubuntu-derived SLP19:17
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Stskeepswhile putting it all on one brand and one runtime19:17
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: so what are we currently doing?  Waiting for Tizen, or is there alot of other development going on that I'm not aware of (most likely option)19:17
Stskeepsruntime being something implementing HTML5+WAC+Tizen services, so when you do this, even on Mer, it could be "Tizen"19:17
Stskeepsso, what we're doing right now on core level is simply cleaning up stuff, updating packages, doing innovations in the core area such as cross compilation, process, image creation, QA, etc19:18
IanWizard-Cloudhmm.. ok.19:18
Stskeepsit's not terribly shiny work but it's what all qt/linux people has to do, so we share the burden of making a linux/qt device19:19
IanWizard-Cloudcleaning up the mess, getting a good base to work with.19:19
Stskeepsyeah, it's already quite good19:19
IanWizard-CloudBasically, I guess what I'm asking is, what does the roadmap look like?19:20
IanWizard-CloudWhat's between us, and ver 1.0?  (or what ever number we end up using)19:20
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Stskeepsright - my hope is to properly 'launch' in next month, where we have up and running. Mer 1.0 will be likely to be Qt 4.8.0 plus a underlying core, along with the ARM and MIPS ports, documentation19:21
StskeepsMer runs a little interestingily, where it's intended that each released core is 'stable'19:21
damnshockI would be using it full time if I had a mail client19:22
IanWizard-Cloudit doesn't?19:22
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StskeepsNemo doesn't19:22
IanWizard-Cloudthat's a damn shock.19:22
StskeepsMer doesn't have any UIs, so no surprises there19:22
Stskeepsi think Plasma might have a mail client19:22
IanWizard-CloudI'm just making a play on damnshock's name19:22
damnshockStskeeps: yeah, I know, I'm not blaming you ;)19:23
damnshockjust comenting from a user point of view19:23
damnshockIanWizard-Cloud:  :P19:23
berndhsi'm looking for a new mail client that will read my old mailboxes from claws19:23
IanWizard-CloudThis is where I'd like an android runtime, because I use Gmail alot, and so I'd be happiest just using Gmail android app, but no support...19:24
damnshockthe thing is that there aren't many mail clients build with qt19:24
damnshockother than kmail19:24
damnshockwhich doesn't work on n90019:24
IanWizard-CloudI think that's where alot of the win or lose will come from with a new mobile OS, is "can you run the existing apps that everybody is so happy with.)19:25
IanWizard-Clouds/ ) / " /19:25
IanWizard-Cloud(I know, improper syntax, but it's vague on IRC)19:25
berndhsfor thigns like email clients, it's not just getting used to a different client, it's importing 50-100K messages in their sub-sub-folders19:26
StskeepsIanWizard-Cloud: but yeah, it's hard to really tell about a roadmap when Mer really works in incrementals19:28
IanWizard-Cloudberndhs: or in my case (with GMail), it's just logging in :)19:28
IanWizard-CloudLet me say/ask this.19:28
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vgradeIanWizard-Cloud, not free but qoudl give you all andriod apps19:31
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vgradeAlison_Chaiken, how about ACL for Mer?19:36
IanWizard-CloudThe ideal mobile platform would be a basic linux system (with minimal kernel requirements), that supported the basic UI toolkits, like GTK, and the likes, and then (most importantly), found the lightest, cleanest way possible, to implement all of the most important API's / Frameworks, suchas, QT, Android, HTML5, (Flash / Air maybe?), and then put them all together with a nice app store (package ma19:39
IanWizard-Cloudnager with some extra features).19:39
IanWizard-CloudThink WeTab, but with a better OS... so, think WePad but better.19:39
Stskeepsyou do have to think about memory usage though19:42
Stskeepsand consistency19:42
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Stskeepsstarting to look good )19:53
mingwandroidhmm, can't login (again!)19:55
Stskeepshmm :P19:56
Stskeepsi wonder why that's hidden anyway19:56
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mingwandroiddamn still no recover password stuff... I'm proper thick.19:58
mingwandroidtoo many vms with too many browsers.20:02
mingwandroidwow, lots succeeded then.20:03
Stskeepsthere's one-two failures left but they're not TC related20:04
mingwandroidthe failures looks pretty trivial too. great.20:04
mingwandroidhow long before a release then?20:04
Stskeepsi'm hoping a prerelease monday so we can see if anything breaks20:05
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Stskeepsor late sunday20:05
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mingwandroidI'm going to roll out android builds of the same TC over the next few days. Will get us more testing from ndk and necessitas communities.20:05
Stskeepsi've also started sketching
Stskeepsfor that experimental angle20:07
mingwandroidbbiab. dinner.20:09
Stskeepsso a mer build would go kernel-headers -> gcc-bootstrap -> glibc-bootstrap -> gcc -> glibc and then start building the packages needed for target's Core20:10
Stskeepsso it's practically possible to target anything20:12
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: u're awesome.20:14
Stskeepsnah, just too much time on my hands20:15
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: ahh, well can I have some?  I'm running out of it at more than 24hr / day :P20:15
Stskeepssorry, all in use :P20:15
IanWizard-CloudStskeeps: fine :(20:16
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mingwandroidStskeeps: My kernel adaptation vega package has rotted..20:26
mingwandroidStskeeps: I linkpac'd cxl's trimslice one, but that's moved now20:27
Stskeepsright, you can usually resurrect it with osc co -u20:28
Stskeepsthat'll give you the unexpanded version20:28
Stskeepsa project.diff, etc20:28
mingwandroidcan I not just redirect it to the new place?20:29
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mingwandroidhome:cxl000:trimslice:Mer:testing I think.20:29
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Stskeeps-might- be possible but i have bad experiences with it20:30
Stskeepsyou could edit the _link file20:30
mingwandroidthat's the files I've got20:32
Stskeepsmm, i'd just re-link it in another place then i guess20:32
Stskeepsif you want to keep anything in common with it20:32
mingwandroidnot sure what I use it for at all tbh20:35
mingwandroidhow can I just remove the link?20:35
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mingwandroidok found it20:36
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mingwandroidI removed the link, and I think I've got all files needed.. but not building?21:22
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