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| Bee_ | Hello! | 09:12 |
|---|---|---|
| Bee_ | Do you guys think that Sailfish OS project is in more advanced stage than Ubuntu Touch? | 09:12 |
| r0kk3rz | considering canonical has dropped ubuntu touch id say so | 09:14 |
| coderus | Bee_: ubuntu touch was never released, so | 09:14 |
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| Bee_ | What do you mean never released? | 09:15 |
| inte[m] | werent there some ubuntu phones for sale? | 09:16 |
| Bee_ | There was plenty of working Ubuntu Touch phones from BQ and Meizu. | 09:16 |
| inte[m] | but that was rather ubuntu phone than ubuntu touch? | 09:16 |
| coderus | Bee_: in a stable state | 09:16 |
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| inte[m] | i never had an ubuntu phone but from what ive heard and read those phones software state was never even close to sfos | 09:17 |
| inte[m] | and somewhat limited as debian system packages were not allowed in the release version | 09:18 |
| Bee_ | https://ubports.com/ | 09:18 |
| inte[m] | those were only possible in the experimental branch | 09:19 |
| Bee_ | Maybe commercial part died, but community is strong on ubports | 09:19 |
| inte[m] | Bee_: well, its experimental | 09:19 |
| inte[m] | community effort, if you want that stay with it | 09:20 |
| inte[m] | sfos is more stable for sure | 09:20 |
| Bee_ | What about Sailfish btw? Do you see bright future? | 09:21 |
| r0kk3rz | Bee_: lets be honest, they're both still quite immature | 09:21 |
| r0kk3rz | its like children arguing about being 4 and 4 and a half | 09:21 |
| * inte[m] uses his phone daily | 09:22 | |
| inte[m] | you cant compare. ubuntu touch is rather like plasma mobile | 09:22 |
| r0kk3rz | not really, plasma mobile is a UX, ubuntu was a whole stack | 09:22 |
| inte[m] | you can buy jolla phones or now, releases | 09:22 |
| inte[m] | which are supported | 09:22 |
| inte[m] | and support android apps | 09:22 |
| inte[m] | r0kk3rz: well ok, but in terms of installable distributions | 09:23 |
| inte[m] | i guess ubuntu touch is more a ux now too | 09:24 |
| Bee_ | Is there any development to Alien Dalvik still? | 09:24 |
| r0kk3rz | Bee_: the biggest thing going for sfos is that the russians and chinese are investing in it | 09:24 |
| inte[m] | its commercial software | 09:24 |
| inte[m] | there are ad updates from time to time | 09:25 |
| inte[m] | dont know about what is planned in the future | 09:25 |
| r0kk3rz | Bee_: in general no, AD is fairly stale and we need a wholesale replacement | 09:25 |
| inte[m] | they will probably switch to anbox some day i guess | 09:26 |
| Bee_ | r0kk3rz: when I used Sailfish, it mas mature enough compared to competition. But after the Jolla's financial issues and layoffs, the development was stagnate, so now SFOS will have harder time to catch up. Are the development teams back in size of the previous glory days? Or still half size as after the layoffs? | 09:26 |
| r0kk3rz | probably still half size, i dont know tbh | 09:28 |
| inte[m] | weren't they hiring again? | 09:28 |
| r0kk3rz | sure | 09:28 |
| r0kk3rz | and still are | 09:28 |
| r0kk3rz | that doesnt mean anyone joined | 09:28 |
| inte[m] | hehe | 09:29 |
| inte[m] | well if i was a professional developer id consider for sure ;) | 09:29 |
| r0kk3rz | there were a few new faces i know of, but they did lose a lot of people | 09:29 |
| r0kk3rz | and the market in .fi isnt huge | 09:29 |
| inte[m] | home office shouldnt be too much a problem for software development | 09:30 |
| r0kk3rz | no, and indeed jolla has a lot of remote workers | 09:30 |
| Bee_ | The biggest advantage back in the day was that everyone working for SFOS was full of ex | 09:31 |
| r0kk3rz | but maybe people dont rush to join a company that nearly went under just recently | 09:31 |
| Bee_ | Excitement | 09:31 |
| inte[m] | well, shoulndt be too hard to find a job anywhere else in case the company really breaks up | 09:32 |
| r0kk3rz | marc was definitely mr enthusiasm | 09:32 |
| inte[m] | at least not for a good developer | 09:32 |
| inte[m] | r0kk3rz: jeah thats true | 09:32 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah thats fine if you want to take that risk, but maybe not everyone does | 09:32 |
| inte[m] | european spirit :) | 09:33 |
| inte[m] | ok | 09:35 |
| inte[m] | my updates still dont work since it crashed the last time | 09:36 |
| inte[m] | i guess i will have to reset my phone | 09:36 |
| * inte[m] never made a reset even though he received his first jolla in 2012 | 09:38 | |
| inte[m] | hope i wont loose any data | 09:38 |
| inte[m] | is it sufficient to simply backup to sd? | 09:38 |
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| * inte really likes matrix | 09:41 | |
| inte | but i think I said that previously :) | 09:41 |
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| inte[m] | mh. phone sais i cannot write on the sd card | 09:43 |
| inte[m] | just grepped it from a beagle, should be ext3 or sth | 09:44 |
| inte[m] | can i reformat it straight from the phone? | 09:44 |
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| Bee_ | Does Marc still use Sailfish as his daily driver? | 09:48 |
| *** NwS <NwS!~NwS@unaffiliated/nws> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | 09:50 | |
| Nicd- | would bet he doesn't | 09:50 |
| r0kk3rz | Bee_: no idea, marc hasnt been involved in quite a while now | 09:52 |
| inte[m] | what actually happened to the turing phone with sfos? | 09:52 |
| Bee_ | Alright | 09:52 |
| inte[m] | were there some phones shipped eventually? | 09:52 |
| Bee_ | Btw have you guys heard | 09:52 |
| Bee_ | Samsung will have a thing called Linux on Galaxy | 09:53 |
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| Bee_ | https://seap.samsung.com/linux-on-galaxy | 09:53 |
| r0kk3rz | inte[m]: they shipped some phones that they claimed were 'pre-production' and would be replacing them for free | 09:53 |
| r0kk3rz | which they never did | 09:53 |
| r0kk3rz | and dropped the project | 09:53 |
| Bee_ | Linux on Galaxy allows the latest Samsung Galaxy smartphone users to run their preferred Linux distribution on their smartphones utilizing the same Linux kernel that powers the Android OS to ensure the best possible performance. | 09:54 |
| inte | r0kk3rz: oh ok thx | 09:54 |
| Bee_ | Kind of like Termux I guess, but hopefully more integrated with the phone drivers and HW | 09:54 |
| r0kk3rz | Bee_: its linux in a container, which you can already do but obviously its cool to get proper support for it | 09:54 |
| inte | r0kk3rz: but out of curiosity, do these phones still receive updates from the official jolla repos? | 09:54 |
| r0kk3rz | inte: not sure | 09:55 |
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| inte | r0kk3rz: those are hard to find anyways and the last time i saw one on ebay if was like 1500€ | 09:55 |
| Bee_ | r0kk3rz: yep, that's why I mentioned Termux | 09:55 |
| * inte would rather search for a N950 :) | 09:55 | |
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| inte | jolla could eventually sell sfos containers ;) | 09:56 |
| inte | not sure if this would make any sense though... LOL | 09:56 |
| r0kk3rz | inte: they cost like 1000€ new... but no i wouldnt bother with them | 09:57 |
| r0kk3rz | you'd be better off with an xperia x | 09:57 |
| inte[m] | i have one already :) | 09:57 |
| inte[m] | still testing the hardware and i cannot get usb otg to work | 09:58 |
| inte[m] | i dont dare to unlock the bootloader yet | 09:58 |
| inte[m] | i just ordered a couple of otg-adapters | 09:58 |
| inte[m] | mine works with the s3, but you never know... | 09:58 |
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| Bee_ | Did they refund the undelivered Turing orders? | 10:01 |
| inte | if anyone could recommend a otg adapter which is known to work with the xperix, youre welcome :) | 10:01 |
| Bee_ | If you guys think about it, Samsung is kind of Nokia now. Nokia had Symbian and dumbphones as primary business | 10:04 |
| Bee_ | And Maemo as secondary project | 10:04 |
| Bee_ | Samsung has Android and Tizen as secondary project | 10:04 |
| Bee_ | And both are/were market dominators | 10:04 |
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| sledges | /win 30 | 10:04 |
| r0kk3rz | sledges: o/ | 10:06 |
| stephg | oo he's alive | 10:06 |
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| * sledges caves in ;P | 10:06 | |
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| inte[m] | was the oyster sf phone actually real? | 10:08 |
| r0kk3rz | Bee_: im not sure thats a meaningful comparison | 10:09 |
| r0kk3rz | symbian and maemo were both nokia driven projects, and android isnt a samsung driven project | 10:10 |
| inte[m] | yeah, nokia was really investing in meego and had it setup as a successor already | 10:10 |
| r0kk3rz | so tizen isnt some internal conflict like maemo was, they're hedging their bets in case goog throws them under a bus | 10:11 |
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| inte[m] | and tizen? appears to be a security nightmare even though they use it on some devices (watches, cameras, TV) | 10:11 |
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| inte[m] | tizen and samsung is rather like webos and lg | 10:12 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah well, you dont become awesome at software over night | 10:12 |
| r0kk3rz | making operating systems is hard | 10:12 |
| r0kk3rz | goog still hasnt gotten it right | 10:12 |
| inte[m] | i still dare google might close the android code some day and switch the kernel to e.g. qnx, freebsd or sth | 10:12 |
| r0kk3rz | or fuscia | 10:13 |
| inte[m] | yes true | 10:13 |
| inte[m] | actually google can say thank you to microsoft for killing meego | 10:14 |
| r0kk3rz | meego probably would have died anyway | 10:14 |
| jonwil | Nokia should have dropped the piece of junk that was Symbian and gone all in on Maemo/MeeGo/etc | 10:15 |
| Bee_ | r0kk3rz: you really don't think Meego would succeed being 1:1 competitor with Android? | 10:15 |
| inte[m] | i think they would have succeeded | 10:16 |
| r0kk3rz | its all speculation of course but all the other behemoths have failed | 10:16 |
| inte[m] | there were many commercial apps available for symbian that day and the qt build environment was already set up for an easy rebuild for meego | 10:16 |
| Bee_ | Then Maemo would have perhaps succeeded. Meego was already too late to the game | 10:17 |
| inte[m] | and, nokia was the market leader and still growing | 10:17 |
| r0kk3rz | nokia couldnt make windows phone successful, why would maemo have been different? | 10:17 |
| inte[m] | they never had a share in the us but who cares? | 10:17 |
| jonwil | I am surprised that so many people/companies have tried proper linux on mobile phones and none have succeeded or stuck with it. | 10:17 |
| inte[m] | well, all those companys were at some point attacked by microsoft | 10:17 |
| Bee_ | r0kk3rz: because Windows phone and Meego came when market already moved on to Android and iOS | 10:18 |
| inte[m] | e.g. the famous palm foleo would have surely become a success, beeing the first ever netbook just short before the netbook boom | 10:18 |
| Bee_ | Maemo had 2 years headstart | 10:18 |
| inte[m] | but then microsoft stepped in and the foleo was never released | 10:18 |
| jonwil | I am surprised Microsoft stuck with phones for so long even when it was clear they were never going to be more than a blip against Android and iOS | 10:18 |
| inte[m] | meego was available on netbooks too, and there were tablet prototypes like the acer m500, and again, ms stepped in | 10:19 |
| jonwil | IIRC they recently killed windows phones | 10:19 |
| inte[m] | windows phone, and especially wp7, was crap | 10:19 |
| r0kk3rz | Bee_: so nokia didnt move soon enough? i dont see how thats anyones fault except nokias... | 10:19 |
| inte[m] | they are no focusing on core os and ardomega or what it is called | 10:20 |
| Bee_ | r0kk3rz: sure, Nokia's fault. I never blamed Microsoft | 10:20 |
| inte[m] | r0kk3rz: there were rumors that the us stock majority pushed elop and elops only business were to cancel meego | 10:20 |
| inte[m] | meego could have become a severe thread to microsoft, beeing available on any class of hardware and compatible to gnu/linux | 10:21 |
| r0kk3rz | inte[m]: yes its a wonderful conspiracy theory | 10:21 |
| inte[m] | meaning meego apps could also run on e.g. redhat, suse... standard linux releases | 10:21 |
| inte[m] | r0kk3rz: i dont think its all conspiracy | 10:21 |
| inte[m] | ballmer was protecting his company | 10:22 |
| r0kk3rz | im sure we can spend all day saying 'maybe', 'could have' and 'would have' | 10:22 |
| Bee_ | inte: for the 1% peopple who care then to run on standard Linux | 10:22 |
| inte[m] | nowadays, microsoft is more cloud focused | 10:22 |
| jonwil | Why did the Ubuntu mobile efforts not work? | 10:22 |
| inte[m] | Bee_: i guess its rather about business applications | 10:22 |
| inte[m] | qt has a quite strong standing in the embedded industry too | 10:23 |
| inte[m] | all threads to ms | 10:23 |
| r0kk3rz | jonwil: shuttleworth gave up | 10:23 |
| inte[m] | jonwil: from what ive heard the ubuntu phones were crap | 10:23 |
| inte[m] | and not as open as e.g. sfos | 10:23 |
| inte[m] | and the community releases were experimental | 10:23 |
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| inte[m] | and, they didnt run android apps | 10:24 |
| *** Bee_ is now known as pdanek | 10:26 | |
| jonwil | I suspect that's the biggest problem for "mobile linux" at this point is that there is no ecosystem to run all the apps people actually care about. | 10:26 |
| jonwil | Me, I love my N900 and wouldn't trade it in for some piece of crap running Android even if you paid me to do it. | 10:27 |
| * inte[m] doesnt like "ecosystems" | 10:27 | |
| inte[m] | its crap like fences | 10:27 |
| inte[m] | marketing crap | 10:27 |
| pdanek | jonwil: then you're limited with what you can do with your smartphone. For me | 10:27 |
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| pdanek | For me it must fully replace laptop | 10:28 |
| inte[m] | pdanek: there is an unofficial tinderapp for sfos available so who cares 😅 | 10:28 |
| jonwil | Most of my computing is done on my desktop PC (running Windows since I use it for games and things otherwise I would go all in on something like Gentoo although I do run a Linux VM for my N900 dev work :) | 10:29 |
| inte[m] | pdanek: i guess the n900 is as close as you could get to replace a laptop :) | 10:29 |
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| jonwil | My N900 does everything I need out of a phone. | 10:29 |
| inte[m] | well, there is the n950 but... | 10:29 |
| r0kk3rz | eh, why should it replace a laptop? | 10:29 |
| jonwil | I can do my online banking on it. | 10:30 |
| jonwil | I can check my emails. | 10:30 |
| jonwil | I can do public transport journey planning (thanks to my own work to support my local transport network in Fahrplan for the N900) | 10:30 |
| jonwil | I have some good games on it (although I gotta stop playing that chess game, every time I try it it just reminds me of how much I stuck at chess :) | 10:31 |
| jonwil | Plus with the new Maemo Leste project that I am now involved in, things are going to get even better | 10:31 |
| r0kk3rz | jonwil: maemo leste? | 10:31 |
| inte | are there still security updates for maemo? | 10:32 |
| jonwil | Maemo Leste is basically a derivative of Devuan with all the maemo software stack (hildon stuff etc) bolted onto it. | 10:32 |
| jonwil | Everything that can be updated will be (new kernel, new libc, new glib etc etc) | 10:33 |
| inte | are there open kernel drivers available for the n900 nowadays? | 10:33 |
| * inte confused | 10:34 | |
| jonwil | All the kernel drivers on the N900 are open | 10:34 |
| jonwil | There were never binary kernel drivers on the N900 | 10:34 |
| jonwil | Plenty of userspace blobs though | 10:34 |
| inte | oh ok didnt know that | 10:34 |
| inte | however, the hardware is just a bit "very slow" compared to current devices | 10:35 |
| jonwil | The idea is that Leste will provide a new OS for the N900 that is capable of running most existing Maemo software without any changes (probably without even needing to recompile). It will also provide an OS that can be used on the Neo900 (should that actually become something you can buy) with the same goals of being able to run Maemo software. | 10:35 |
| * inte remebers running a dev-release of meego on his n900 and that was slooooooow | 10:35 | |
| jonwil | And Leste will also provide a maemo type environment on other hardware | 10:35 |
| jonwil | Someone is using a Droid 4 as a Leste target for example | 10:35 |
| * inte still has an eye on the neo900 but barely sees progress | 10:36 | |
| inte | id rather invest in that recent crowdfunding project | 10:37 |
| jonwil | Oh and in terms of security updates, there are plans in the works to release a new version of the "community SSU" update which will include some security updates and fixes. | 10:37 |
| inte | forgot its name | 10:37 |
| inte | this open device | 10:37 |
| Tegu | purism? | 10:37 |
| inte | yes | 10:37 |
| inte | thx | 10:37 |
| jonwil | And of course Leste will have modern versions of everything so security wont be as big of a deal. | 10:37 |
| jonwil | i.e. we want to throw away the ancient N900 microb browser and its ancient version of Gecko and replace it with something more modern (what that is is still unknown) | 10:38 |
| inte | they could still do a leste port for the purism though | 10:38 |
| jonwil | It will be interesting to see if the Purism guys are able to hit their target in terms of just how open the thing is. | 10:39 |
| jonwil | I suspect there will still be closed blobs connected to the i.MX6 involved somewhere | 10:39 |
| r0kk3rz | good luck to them | 10:39 |
| inte[m] | at least, unlike the kde book, they ship coreboot with their laptops | 10:40 |
| inte[m] | libreboot would still be better though | 10:41 |
| inte | kde slimbook | 10:41 |
| jonwil | I doubt there exists a CPU on the planet (aside from some specialty/weird stuff like OpenRISC and maybe some of the POWER stuff from IBM) that is capable of running a modern Linux desktop setup such that there are no binary blobs involved at all (and hence nothing that could be spying on you or compromising your data) | 10:42 |
| inte | werent there a ppc project for libreboot? | 10:42 |
| r0kk3rz | jonwil: maybe an old 8088 somewhere :) | 10:43 |
| jonwil | You cant run a modern Linux desktop on an old CPU | 10:43 |
| jonwil | The kernel needs at least i486 these days AFAIK | 10:44 |
| jonwil | possibly even Pentium | 10:44 |
| inte[m] | well, but the x200/x230 is still sufficent enough and there is libreboot available | 10:44 |
| jonwil | There is certainly no chip suitable for running a modern linux environment in a mobile device that is free of binary crap. | 10:44 |
| r0kk3rz | but anyway, you're still going to be spied on seven ways from sunday beyond your choice of PC | 10:45 |
| jonwil | Yeah true | 10:45 |
| inte[m] | yes | 10:45 |
| inte[m] | like with this recent wpa2 breach | 10:45 |
| inte[m] | so complex that it will hardly be utilized | 10:45 |
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| inte[m] | but the media uprise was huge | 10:46 |
| inte[m] | even though it gave a good impression about how crappy most iot devices are since most of them are not upgradeable | 10:46 |
| inte | oh, aibo is back :) | 10:48 |
| inte[m] | and the nokia 2 is out, for less than 100€ | 10:50 |
| inte[m] | i always wonder why it seems impossible for jolla to somehow release a nokia sfos phone | 10:51 |
| r0kk3rz | because nokia doesnt want it? | 10:51 |
| inte[m] | obviously there doesnt seem much interest for cooperation | 10:51 |
| inte[m] | seems so. | 10:51 |
| inte[m] | i dont quite understand why they wouldnt want | 10:51 |
| r0kk3rz | why *would* they want it? | 10:52 |
| jonwil | Regardless of what else may be going on, the idea of a mobile device built from the ground up to be as secure as possible is a good thing and I think the Neo900 hardware design is the closest thing out there to such a device | 10:52 |
| inte[m] | well it could be good marketing | 10:52 |
| jonwil | The cellular radio, GPS, WiFi and other chips that have connectivity have hardware off switches so you can be sure they really ARE off when you want them to be. | 10:52 |
| inte[m] | a nokia branded sfos phone would surely feel somewhat genuine nokia, since sfos is the true nokiaos successor | 10:53 |
| r0kk3rz | i cant help but think ideas like neo900 are fighting a losing battle, once the reputation economy gears up people will be opting in to be tracked more | 10:54 |
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| jonwil | Its actually possible to run a totally blob-free setup on the Neo900 main CPU if you want to (assuming you are OK with not having hardware accelerated 3D) | 10:55 |
| r0kk3rz | already you hear of employers checking peoples facebook pages before hiring them | 10:55 |
| jonwil | If you really want to see where this word is going, why its a bad idea and why we need to stop it all, go read Data and Goliath by Bruce Schineer | 10:56 |
| jonwil | Someone needs to send copies of that book to all the idiot politicians in various governments who are pushing for MORE survellence and spying. | 10:57 |
| jonwil | More spying and surveillance wont make a difference in the real world, look at that idiot with the pickup truck in New York. No amount of spying by the NSA or FBI or otherwise would have stopped him from doing what he did. | 10:58 |
| inte[m] | r0kk3rz: that is nothing new i guess | 11:00 |
| mornfall | that's not entirely true... put enough brain scanning equipment on everyone and you may catch impure thoughts early on ;-) | 11:01 |
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| r0kk3rz | jonwil: of course its terrible, but its also inevitable at this point | 11:05 |
| r0kk3rz | and looking at it from purely a terrorism point of view is a bit too narrow | 11:13 |
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| inte | oh there is a signal client for the linux desktop now | 11:28 |
| inte | maybe that can be ported to sfos | 11:28 |
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| rigo | r0kk3rz: Facebook information is public information, so what's the problem. The employer just does due diligence | 11:32 |
| rigo | and again, we can ALL do something about it by encrypting as often as we can | 11:33 |
| rigo | even opportunistic encryption helps | 11:33 |
| r0kk3rz | my point is that unless you opt in to some of these data collecting services you're already a bit of an outcast | 11:34 |
| r0kk3rz | that will get worse most likely | 11:34 |
| rigo | my /etc/hosts reads 127.0.0.1 www.facebook.com | 11:35 |
| rigo | this way I reliably get rid of those evil buttons | 11:35 |
| rigo | that all those vandals powder all over the web | 11:36 |
| inte[m] | isnt there fbcdn.com as well? | 11:36 |
| inte[m] | or sth like that? | 11:36 |
| rigo | inte[m]: of course, but I don't insert my hosts file with 300 entries here ;) | 11:37 |
| rigo | fb.com etc... | 11:37 |
| inte[m] | then they can still track you | 11:37 |
| inte[m] | even though, no buttons, true | 11:38 |
| r0kk3rz | privacy badger does a good job | 11:39 |
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| Nicd- | I use uMatrix and it's a pain sometimes :P | 11:49 |
| Nicd- | youtube's autoplay keeps turning on for whatever reason with it | 11:49 |
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| inte | i inserted a f2fs formatted smartcard in my jolla and it is not recogniced | 15:22 |
| r0kk3rz | smartcard? | 15:23 |
| inte | sd | 15:23 |
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| inte | ah just found the f2fs tools in warehouse | 15:23 |
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| inte | trying to reboot maybe that would help | 15:24 |
| inte | is f2fs supported by default? | 15:25 |
| inte | i didnt reboot after i plugged in the card | 15:25 |
| inte | ok now its recognized, but the backup program always says that the card is not writeable | 15:26 |
| inte | i messed up my device a bit | 15:27 |
| inte | but still, how can i write to the card? | 15:27 |
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| inte | dev/mmcblk1p1 on /opt/alien/media/sdcard/card type f2fs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime,dirsync,background_gc_on,user_xattr,acl,active_logs=6) | 15:30 |
| inte | looks fine, actually | 15:30 |
| inte | ok | 15:32 |
| inte | from the command prompt, i need to devel-su to modify file on the card | 15:32 |
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| inte | ah, chown nemo:nemo /media/sdcard/ did the trick | 15:39 |
| inte | as mentioned on https://together.jolla.com/question/92854/microsd-card-with-btrfs-mounted-but-not-writable-by-user/ | 15:39 |
| inte | shouldnt that issue have been fixed for long? | 15:39 |
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| inte | now it appears that i have too less space for the backup, even though im backing up to sd | 15:44 |
| inte | grr | 15:44 |
| inte | that is not really userfriendly | 15:45 |
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| Tomin | 3 | 18:02 |
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| SQUelcher | # | 19:54 |
| SQUelcher | ~# | 19:54 |
| SQUelcher | ~~ | 19:54 |
| SQUelcher | ~ | 19:54 |
| SQUelcher | ~ | 19:54 |
| SQUelcher | ~ | 19:54 |
| SQUelcher | ~ | 19:54 |
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| SQUelcher | (my two year old trying to skip to the next video in mplayer on the other console... :> ) | 19:56 |
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| Temppu-Teme | gotta start young :D | 20:17 |
| FireFly | :D | 20:23 |
| * FireFly approves | 20:23 | |
| tango_ | lol | 20:34 |
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