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| jonssons | so | 10:55 |
|---|---|---|
| jonssons | where do I find a list of supported devices? | 10:55 |
| Nicd- | https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations/libhybris | 10:59 |
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| jonssons | Nicd-: ooh nice, thanks | 10:59 |
| Coolgeek | btw, SFOS update for everyone :) | 11:10 |
| Tegu | huh, really? | 11:11 |
| Coolgeek | yyp, doing the update right now | 11:11 |
| Tegu | nice https://together.jolla.com/question/164349/release-notes-211-jamsanjoki-released/ | 11:12 |
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| phlixi_o | just noticed an sfos update in the store | 16:01 |
| phlixi_o | is this new? | 16:01 |
| phlixi_o | never noticed the update is displayed in the store, the last years i thought it was always in the settings | 16:02 |
| Tegu | updated | 16:02 |
| Tegu | oh, I didn't look if it was in the store. but the store checks for system updates although one would not visit the settings pae | 16:04 |
| phlixi_o | i was just updating webcat from notification which took me to the store, after the webcat update sfos was displayed as an update in the store.. never noticed that in the store... | 16:05 |
| phlixi_o | usually when there came a sfos update notification up, that took me into settings | 16:05 |
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| Tegu | and yay, the Fingerterm keyboard hiding issue has been fixed. unfortunately, the cursor position issue is still here, although it appeared in one of the recent updates | 16:20 |
| Tegu | earlier, only the cursor in the fade keyboard mode was bugging, but nowadays the terminal display itself has a similar issue | 16:22 |
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| Tegu | heh, the WLAN settings now show a loong list of old networks | 16:41 |
| Tegu | I didn't even know they were still stored smewhere | 16:42 |
| Tegu | somewhere*. which file contains them? (editing text is painful with this fingerterm cursor offset) | 16:43 |
| r0kk3rz | it is rather | 16:43 |
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| PaulePanter | After reading the topic, could the URL please be updated to https://jolla.com/? | 17:18 |
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| PaulePanter | I guess a lot of people asked about https://blog.jolla.com/sailfishx/ already. | 17:18 |
| PaulePanter | What is free software and what is proprietary about it? | 17:18 |
| * PaulePanter doesn’t want to spent money on proprietary stuff. | 17:19 | |
| r0kk3rz | PaulePanter: then you dont need to buy it | 17:19 |
| PaulePanter | r0kk3rz: So, everything is closed? | 17:20 |
| r0kk3rz | no | 17:20 |
| PaulePanter | So the same as the state of the Jolla phone? | 17:20 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah basically | 17:21 |
| PaulePanter | Themes and a lot of applications are proprietary? | 17:21 |
| r0kk3rz | the free bits are freely available, so you dont really need to buy anything | 17:21 |
| PaulePanter | I thought that’s was supposed to change. | 17:21 |
| r0kk3rz | it was/is but that hasnt happened yet | 17:21 |
| PaulePanter | That’s too bad. I happily donate, but wouldn’t won’t to support the current model very much. | 17:22 |
| r0kk3rz | jolla said they would release the adaptation, so you can build it yourself using the hadk if you want | 17:22 |
| r0kk3rz | but certainly, things still arent RMS approved | 17:23 |
| PaulePanter | If there is a write-up what is actually the difference in freedom between SailfishOS and LineageOS for example, that’d be great. | 17:23 |
| PaulePanter | r0kk3rz: That sounds a little better. | 17:23 |
| r0kk3rz | the gist would be that lineage is free-er than sailfish anyway | 17:26 |
| PaulePanter | r0kk3rz: Understood. Thank you. Then I’ll try to support LineageOS until SailfishOS changes someday. | 17:27 |
| PaulePanter | r0kk3rz: Thank you for your answers and patience. | 17:27 |
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| abranson | r0kk3rz, PaulePanter: doesn't that depend on what you call free? ;) | 18:39 |
| abranson | Lineage still requires rooting if you want full control of it, right? | 18:40 |
| r0kk3rz | i assumed he meant free as in the RMS sense | 18:40 |
| abranson | he has four doesn't he | 18:40 |
| r0kk3rz | in which case, the whole codebase is open except for the same blobs we use | 18:40 |
| abranson | but i'm not sure it's very valuable to have the code open if the binaries are locked away from you | 18:41 |
| Nicd- | https://sailfishos.org/developmentroadmap/ | 18:42 |
| Nicd- | nice | 18:42 |
| abranson | for me, the freedom of control over my own device is much more important than the code being open. i'd rather have administrator rights on windows than have a linux box where I didn't have the root password. | 18:42 |
| r0kk3rz | agreed, but he specifically mentioned not wanting to support proprietary software, so each to their own | 18:43 |
| abranson | yeah, it just seems a bit dogmatic to me. we're rapidly losing that freedom by people hiding behind 'open source' | 18:44 |
| Tegu | I have an ADSL box whose root password would be nice to have.. for the lulz if nothing else | 18:45 |
| PaulePanter | abranson: Yes, I meant the RMS sense. But you raise some good points I have to think about. | 18:45 |
| PaulePanter | Tegu: Did you ask the vendor? ;-) | 18:46 |
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| Tegu | do they give them? :D | 18:46 |
| PaulePanter | Tegu: You don’t know, until you try it. | 18:47 |
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| r0kk3rz | abranson: im sure old mate RMS would argue that without the code, you only have the control the developer lets you and you cant know for sure its respecting your wishes :) | 18:47 |
| abranson | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software#Definition | 18:47 |
| abranson | out of those four, i'd say you only get the freedom to study in the wider android community, and not at all when the google services get involved | 18:48 |
| abranson | how many of these does an unrooted lineage give you? | 18:48 |
| r0kk3rz | ... all of them? people can and do build new lineage images with custom features for unofficial devices after all | 18:49 |
| r0kk3rz | and redistribute them as they see fit | 18:50 |
| abranson | but the only way to replace that software is rather destructive, no? definitely wouldn't get the GPLv3 anti-tivoization seal of approval | 18:58 |
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| r0kk3rz | true, replacing bits is much easier with a package system of some kind | 19:05 |
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| r0kk3rz | even so, theres parts of sfos you dont have the code to, so that doesnt get the GPLv3 anti-tivoisation seal of approval either | 19:07 |
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| abranson | r0kk3rz: i don't think that's a problem. as long as you can replace a GPL3 package on the system with your own version then you're good. developer mode on the jolla fulfills that completely. | 19:17 |
| abranson | even though you can 'root' android devices, you're not meant to. it's not mandated by the system, so apps can complain about it etc | 19:18 |
| r0kk3rz | no, but it is a menu option in lineageos anyway | 19:20 |
| r0kk3rz | no extra flashing required | 19:20 |
| r0kk3rz | what the apps do isnt really a fault of the system, sfos apps could do all kinds of crappy things too if they wanted | 19:21 |
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| abranson | r0kk3rz: well i'd argue that it would be unacceptable in sfos because it's sanctioned by the system | 19:37 |
| abranson | rooting I mean | 19:37 |
| abranson | on android, root is a dirty word. and that's probably what I object to the most | 19:37 |
| r0kk3rz | quite so, but even on the most RMS approved systems you're still free to install crappy apps that do crappy things | 19:39 |
| r0kk3rz | and i was referring to lineageos, not the whole android ecosystem | 19:39 |
| abranson | hard to separate the two though really. and you could argue that lineage helps to sustain the android monopoly, which for the large part is extremely non-free, by soaking up interest in real alternatives at the periphery | 19:41 |
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| phlixi | abranson r0kk3rz do you use lineage? and how would you say it compares to sfos in regards of "maturity" of the system, while not using google services? (not asking about eye candy stuff, or ux principles like swype vs buttons or such) | 19:45 |
| r0kk3rz | abranson: on the flip side, you can argue they are also helping stop android from closing the whole thing by filling in the gaps and providing installable images | 19:46 |
| r0kk3rz | s/android/google | 19:46 |
| abranson | hmm no I think there'd be a lot more activity around real linux phones if it weren't there. fewer phones to run it on maybe, but they definitely cement the monopoly | 19:48 |
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| r0kk3rz | phlixi: i use it on my tablet when im not fighting with sfos on it, it does what i expect from android | 19:50 |
| phlixi | a jolla tablet? | 19:50 |
| r0kk3rz | no, a sony one | 19:50 |
| r0kk3rz | hence the ongoing battle to get the hardware to work with sfos | 19:51 |
| phlixi | i figured i only rarely use the tablet for surfing, and that works very well with sfos (imho) | 19:51 |
| r0kk3rz | abranson: so you're saying that people shouldnt maintain a free android fork because you'd prefer it if they did something else? im not sure what kind of argument this is :) | 19:54 |
| abranson | r0kk3rz: it's the same argument as asking people to stop hacking windows activation and use an actual free OS instead, or they might find that one day they don't have a choice. | 19:57 |
| abranson | android exists for as long as google needs it to. when they have a complete monopoly, they could whip it out from under our feet very quickly if they wanted to | 19:58 |
| r0kk3rz | i agree. but presumably people do these things because they want to | 20:01 |
| r0kk3rz | and forcing them not to doesnt sound very freedomy to me | 20:01 |
| abranson | i did say ask ;) | 20:02 |
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| abranson | but want is a funny word. android's very carefully aimed, quite cynically, to satisfy certain desires for freedom while removing other forms of it | 20:03 |
| abranson | people want a lot of things they've been sold, but only because the pitch was right | 20:04 |
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