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| jaywalk | DHL seem to be on their way to deliver a package from hong kong/kowloon to me. no notices from Jolla since I payed the taxes but could this be the tablet? A few other things on order but none that should be sent out of hong kong to my knowledge | 11:56 |
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| fennekki | could be? You'll see when you get the delivery at least | 12:04 |
| roboro | I also got the DHL notification | 12:05 |
| roboro | I guess that would be the tablet then | 12:06 |
| Yaniel | haven't there been others who got their tablets without a warning | 12:06 |
| Yaniel | or got the tracking code the next day after receiving the tablet | 12:06 |
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| mornfall | jaywalk: how long since you paid the tax? | 12:22 |
| jaywalk | mornfall: think I payed 2016-04-07, so last thursday? | 12:22 |
| ln- | *paid | 12:22 |
| jaywalk | ln-: right, of course! | 12:23 |
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| jaywalk | Yaniel: the notification was from DHL to my phone (SMS), not jolla themselves. But another swede waiting to the same today so seem highly likely it is the tablet! | 12:24 |
| jaywalk | s/to the same/got the same/ | 12:25 |
| ln- | i also got notification directly from DHL, not jolla, and my tablet shipped from kowloon, as far as i remember. | 12:25 |
| mornfall | damn of course my order has a wrong phone number in it | 12:28 |
| mornfall | now I'll need the tracking number I guess | 12:30 |
| jaywalk | mornfall: if you open a ticket with jolla I'm sure they can dig that out in no time | 12:32 |
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| the_mgt | http://events.linuxfoundation.org/sites/events/files/slides/AFL%20filesystem%20fuzzing%2C%20Vault%202016.pdf | 13:18 |
| the_mgt | look, btrfs died after 5s | 13:18 |
| the_mgt | who would have expected that | 13:18 |
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| mornfall | the_mgt: oh come on, btrfs is self healing and indestructible | 13:46 |
| mornfall | ext4 held out the longest but still BUGged out | 13:49 |
| ggabriel | in a way, it's better to die earlier | 13:49 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: in this case, no it's not | 13:49 |
| ggabriel | so you lose 5s and not hours :P | 13:49 |
| ggabriel | why not? | 13:49 |
| mornfall | it just means that a small change in the filesystem gives you a bug | 13:49 |
| mornfall | the longer the time the more they had to twist the image | 13:50 |
| mornfall | did you read what they are doing? :) | 13:50 |
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| ggabriel | I understand that; however, this indicates that btrfs shouldn't be used for critical applications | 13:50 |
| ggabriel | and it's been saying EXPERIMENTAL in the linux kernel config for ages | 13:50 |
| mornfall | well, *all* the filesystems in the test crashed eventually | 13:50 |
| mornfall | maybe xfs wouldn't, they apparently stopped after first problem | 13:51 |
| mornfall | soft lockup is not quite as fatal as BUGging out | 13:51 |
| mornfall | but *that* may be a case of insufficient 'fail early' code | 13:52 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: btrfs is probably going to be, ultimately, a failure | 13:53 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: why? | 13:54 |
| ggabriel | as in... are there any big design flaws that are well known? | 13:54 |
| mornfall | well, it was supposed to be production ready 6 years ago | 13:55 |
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| mornfall | (after doubling the initial estimate given by its developers :p) | 13:55 |
| ggabriel | that's only bad project management | 13:55 |
| mornfall | no, that's grossly underestimating the complexity | 13:55 |
| ggabriel | ok, to me estimating complexity is part of project management | 13:56 |
| mornfall | in that case, bad project management can easily mean failure of the project as a whole | 13:56 |
| ggabriel | agree if you had a feasible alternative that can live on | 13:57 |
| ggabriel | but ext4 developers agreed that btrfs has features to look up to | 13:57 |
| mornfall | so had winfs | 13:58 |
| ggabriel | well, but windows, mac os x and friends are decades behind | 13:59 |
| the_mgt | yeah, ferraris and bugattis have features to look up too | 13:59 |
| ggabriel | i'm not too versed on this tbh, only know a little bit | 13:59 |
| mornfall | decades behind in what respect? | 13:59 |
| the_mgt | but ultimately, when you want a robust car for the family, they are not where you look for inspiration | 13:59 |
| ggabriel | features | 13:59 |
| ggabriel | the_mgt: I don't know if I'd make that analogy myself but point taken if there are design flaws identified | 14:00 |
| ggabriel | I just think that btrfs appearing in this pdf is just bad press... the fs has been in dev for a long time and is still experimental | 14:00 |
| mornfall | many of those features are largely irrelevant | 14:00 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: such as? | 14:00 |
| mornfall | most of what btrfs has to offer is only useful on a small/isolated server | 14:01 |
| mornfall | on a desktop, OSX probably has nicer storage-level features (time machine?) | 14:01 |
| ggabriel | yuk | 14:01 |
| ggabriel | hfs+ is sat least considerably slower than ext4 | 14:02 |
| mornfall | in big data, you don't really use filesystems as units of anything | 14:02 |
| ggabriel | and that's a user's perspective... there are articles out there explaining how badly it sucks anyway | 14:02 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: somehow it doesn't bother anyone ... and ntfs seems complete enough as well, for desktop-ish use, even if IO in windows sucks horribly | 14:02 |
| ggabriel | so, that's kind of my point... there are old fs's out there | 14:03 |
| mornfall | btrfs quite reliably loses data, that's *one* feature you really don't want | 14:03 |
| ggabriel | nothing is contending with btrfs which wants to fix a number of issues | 14:03 |
| mornfall | and again, those new features are pretty marginal | 14:03 |
| ggabriel | ext4 is very superior for dsktop/small servers | 14:03 |
| mornfall | it's graet if you are a hobbyist with limited resources | 14:03 |
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| ggabriel | zfs needs so many resources that it isn't viable for smaller applications | 14:04 |
| ggabriel | so you don't agree that having a fs for big/mid/small would be nice? | 14:04 |
| mornfall | but all the online tinkering it allows is usually useless if you can just dump and restore on a new array | 14:04 |
| ggabriel | and we all have to continue having fun loading modules and fs incompatibility? | 14:04 |
| Lieke | i usually just go with xfs and am happy | 14:04 |
| the_mgt | honestly, when I started with linux, i thought deeply about fs choices | 14:04 |
| the_mgt | I used reiserfs because it was supposed to be better than the others | 14:05 |
| the_mgt | i used xfs to store my data | 14:05 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: dunno, I use a comparably ancient ffs/ufs on a modern desktop and I don't really suffer for it | 14:05 |
| the_mgt | in retrospect, both might have been interesting choices, but i would have been better off with ext3 | 14:05 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: I suffer constantely with ffs, at least 3-4 times a year | 14:05 |
| ggabriel | the_mgt: agree... I didn't even try, just went with ext3 and then upgraded to ext4 which was straightforward | 14:06 |
| the_mgt | xfs is nice if you have a ups, reiser just died | 14:06 |
| ggabriel | which btw is another feature of btrfs: easy upgrade from ext4 | 14:06 |
| mornfall | it has none of the 'cool' features, but it is reliable and it does what it is supposed to do | 14:06 |
| ggabriel | reiser is dead, sadly | 14:06 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: how do you suffer? | 14:06 |
| the_mgt | i also had jfs for a while | 14:06 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: data loss when the server crashes for whatever reason | 14:06 |
| the_mgt | in the end, i stopped worrying and learned to love ext4 | 14:06 |
| the_mgt | what bugs me the most is that linux fs do not have a simple undelete function | 14:07 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: I assume you are talking about ffs as in openbsd's ffs | 14:07 |
| mornfall | yes | 14:07 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: also, I sync all the time | 14:07 |
| the_mgt | backups and all are nice, but if you are in between backup times, a simple "undelete" would be golden | 14:07 |
| mornfall | hm, I had issues with USB hanging my machine recently and I don't think I saw any data loss in those few crashes | 14:08 |
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| mornfall | other than that, I don't really see crashes so can't really tell for sure | 14:09 |
| mornfall | what I do know is that I ruined reiser beyond all repair with a crash once | 14:09 |
| mornfall | probably v3 | 14:09 |
| ggabriel | the_mgt: this already supports it: https://github.com/philipl/pifs | 14:09 |
| ggabriel | :) | 14:09 |
| mornfall | and xfs used to zero out files on power cuts too | 14:09 |
| mornfall | (only files though, not nuke the entire fs) | 14:10 |
| the_mgt | yeah, that is why i meant you need ups with xfs | 14:10 |
| the_mgt | i had it for media server storage in the times of emule | 14:10 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: agree mostly, yeah, didn't lose too much data but had to repair/deal with pain rarely | 14:10 |
| ggabriel | ext3/4 never did that to me | 14:10 |
| ggabriel | hfs+ failed miserably once and that was enough | 14:10 |
| mornfall | it also doesn't really matter that much if your FS can withstand a powercut if the SSD can't :-) | 14:11 |
| ggabriel | the issue with btrfs I think is that it's backed by at least one company who already has zfs and only cares about big operations | 14:12 |
| mornfall | also my 1TB WD drive lost a considerable number of sectors due to power cuts | 14:12 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: return those drives if still on warranty :P | 14:12 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: yes, the bought ZFS after going on with btrfs for a while | 14:12 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: it's many years out of warranty by now | 14:13 |
| ggabriel | on the plus side, btrfs is open source so it may pull through | 14:14 |
| mornfall | so is ZFS | 14:14 |
| ggabriel | yeah, but zfs is resource hungry | 14:14 |
| ggabriel | can't put it anywhere | 14:14 |
| mornfall | it is, but resources are steadily growing | 14:15 |
| ggabriel | lvm is an interesting alternative to use with ext4 too | 14:15 |
| mornfall | remember powertop and interrupts per second on x86? | 14:15 |
| ggabriel | oh, and sadly btrfs dropped encryption from their feature set :( | 14:15 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: lol | 14:15 |
| ggabriel | wait, let me press turbo | 14:15 |
| mornfall | the powermanagement in android linux sucks too though | 14:16 |
| mornfall | somehow we always end up with hardware fixing/working around software inefficiency | 14:17 |
| mornfall | so ZFS eats RAM for breakfast, but with arm64 we'll probably see 8G+ in phones soon enough | 14:17 |
| locusf | lol zfs on mobile | 14:18 |
| locusf | it doesn't just eat ram, it gorges it like lion on raw meat | 14:18 |
| ggabriel | well, google has been running java for ages, who would have thought that? ;) | 14:19 |
| mornfall | it only gets really bad when you turn on online dedup | 14:19 |
| ggabriel | I should say gava as it isn't really java | 14:19 |
| mornfall | which btrfs wants to have too but still doesn't AFAIK | 14:19 |
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| mornfall | and it'll probably chomp ram just as zfs does when they finally get it | 14:19 |
| mornfall | only by that time, it won't really seem as that hungry | 14:20 |
| mornfall | the devices that'd probably suffer most are routers and other small appliances | 14:20 |
| mornfall | but you really don't care much there unless you also want to abuse your router as a NAS | 14:22 |
| ggabriel | tbh, btrfs has worked for me on the jolla... but i'm not the kind of person that uses 95% of the filesystem at all times, that's why I have an sd card | 14:25 |
| ggabriel | I wouldn't use it for the desktop as it's a nightmare at all times so ext4 does the job and have been lucky not to run out of inodes just yet | 14:26 |
| fennekki | I've used btrfs on desktop for years with no issues, so I guess it depends on what you use it for | 14:27 |
| fennekki | I probably would be fine with like. ext2 too though | 14:27 |
| lainwir3d | i'm using it on desktop too | 14:27 |
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| EyeA | Jolla )01!@ )0h | 14:39 |
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| coderus | btrfs on latest kernels is okay. btrks on old jolla kernel is pain. | 14:47 |
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| EyeA | I have striped my Jolla Phone sim holders sim pins any idea where to get a repair | 14:52 |
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| ggabriel | EyeA: I suggest you talk to jolla themselves for options first? maybe you can send in and they'll repair it? | 14:54 |
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| EyeA | ok | 14:57 |
| EyeA | thanks | 14:57 |
| EyeA | I have sent them a mail | 14:57 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: on jolla, I had problems with btrfs | 15:00 |
| mornfall | and I think quite a few people did | 15:00 |
| mornfall | also it's far from 96%-use-only | 15:01 |
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| * keithzg has, with sadness, finally submitted for a tablet refund. Alas! | 23:10 | |
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| M4rtinK | keithzg: which number did you have ? :) | 23:16 |
| keithzg | M4rtinK: I don't remember! And I seem to be having issues finding out easily. Hrrm. I would have thought it'd be obvious on IndieGoGo. | 23:20 |
| keithzg | It was less than 30min after I got the announcement email, I can tell that much :) | 23:22 |
| M4rtinK | hmm | 23:23 |
| M4rtinK | mine was about 11:00 | 23:24 |
| M4rtinK | so about 1:30 after | 23:24 |
| M4rtinK | so I guess I might also apply soon :D | 23:24 |
| keithzg | 'S possible my order didn't matter. | 23:24 |
| keithzg | I'm in a country people are weirdly unwiling to ship to, after all ;) | 23:25 |
| keithzg | But yeah, I was holding out hope. | 23:26 |
| M4rtinK | you have number 633 | 23:26 |
| M4rtinK | according to https://www.dropbox.com/s/e0hz00dzrmqgj2x/backers.txt?dl=0 | 23:26 |
| M4rtinK | I have about ~1000 :P | 23:27 |
| M4rtinK | so most probably really no chance :D | 23:27 |
| M4rtinK | might as well do it right now :D | 23:27 |
| M4rtinK | or, wait to tomorrow :) | 23:28 |
| keithzg | Might wanna wait for folks to respond to this last reminder email, yeah. | 23:29 |
| keithzg | And if you don't live in a place Jolla doesn't normally ship to like I do, you might also have better luck! | 23:30 |
| M4rtinK | well a couple of more lucky friends got one :) | 23:31 |
| M4rtinK | good point about people responding to the reminder | 23:33 |
| M4rtinK | but I wonder if that actually can influence something | 23:33 |
| keithzg | Well, it did influence me at least, heh. | 23:33 |
| M4rtinK | the refund/tablet granting seems rather random or arbitrary | 23:33 |
| keithzg | I had a question on the blog post about whether I had any chance of getting one and never got a response, so I figured I should just assume the answer was no. | 23:34 |
| M4rtinK | and there are at least a few cases where people filled the refund/donated the money and still got the tablet :D | 23:34 |
| keithzg | M4rtinK: Oh whoa | 23:34 |
| M4rtinK | a couple have been reported online | 23:34 |
| M4rtinK | but I've hear the same thing from a friend recently | 23:35 |
| M4rtinK | about some guy he knows | 23:35 |
| M4rtinK | he donated or filled the refund | 23:35 |
| M4rtinK | only to get a tablet :) | 23:35 |
| M4rtinK | so utter chaos - as usual :) | 23:35 |
| keithzg | I rather hope that happens to me---although I'll definitely refund my refund then! ;) I was honestly tempted to donate the money, just couldn't quite bring myself to without knowing if the closed-source portions of SailfishOS will ever be opened. | 23:36 |
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| keithzg | In the meantime I went ahead and bought a Pixel C a while back, and with a Debian chroot it's entirely fulfilling my use-case for a Jolla Tablet, albeit sadly not quite as nice of a UI. | 23:37 |
| keithzg | I do find it kindof funny that every IndieGoGo project I've backed has ended in me getting a refund :P But unfortunately the current realities of mainland China manufacturing kindof dooms all such endeavours, it seems. | 23:39 |
| M4rtinK | keithzg: yeah - I have the same sentiment | 23:39 |
| M4rtinK | I would consider donating much more strongly in that case | 23:39 |
| M4rtinK | also I kinda "donated" before by buying a Jolla during the main crisis | 23:40 |
| M4rtinK | that should be enough | 23:40 |
| M4rtinK | also why I do they they work very hard and most of the current crisis has not been their fault | 23:40 |
| M4rtinK | they did some did some pretty bad/weird decisions and some of their priorities are mindbogglingly | 23:42 |
| M4rtinK | misplaced, at least IMHO | 23:42 |
| M4rtinK | that kinda limits my optimism | 23:42 |
| M4rtinK | also the general inability to let people help | 23:42 |
| M4rtinK | the community has been waiting for being able to help with translations for 3+ years now | 23:43 |
| M4rtinK | same thing about documentation | 23:43 |
| M4rtinK | not even mentioning 3+ years old bug that could be easily fixed by the community if only the respective components have been open sourced | 23:45 |
| M4rtinK | also all the things requested/promised during the community meetings - about 90% of them kinda never happened... | 23:45 |
| fennekki | I'd also like an user interface for wpa enterprise networks | 23:45 |
| keithzg | Yeah, fundamentally a lot of it seems to just come down to "if development was more open . . ." | 23:45 |
| M4rtinK | </rant> :) | 23:45 |
| M4rtinK | keithzg: yeah, that's how I see it too | 23:46 |
| M4rtinK | no wonder they have been fire-fighting for years to no end | 23:46 |
| M4rtinK | if they don't let people to help... | 23:46 |
| keithzg | Yeah. They're definitely overworked and underfunded, but that makes it all the more important that there be as little friction as possible for accepting 'outside' contributions. | 23:46 |
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| M4rtinK | yeah! | 23:46 |
| M4rtinK | there is also the selfish aspect | 23:47 |
| M4rtinK | if Jolla goes bottom up without opensourcing the closed bits | 23:47 |
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| M4rtinK | we get third part of the N900/N9 saga | 23:48 |
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| keithzg | Yeah, it's the sort of reason that KDE negotiated the creation of the Free Qt Foundation. | 23:49 |
| M4rtinK | abandoned hybrid open/proprietary platform with the closed bits dragging it down & hampering community maintenance/development | 23:49 |
| M4rtinK | if there is any community left ta that point :P | 23:50 |
| M4rtinK | keithzg: yeah, it's pretty important to think about things like that | 23:50 |
| fennekki | M4rtinK: "sailfish more like selfish, ha ha ha" | 23:50 |
| fennekki | just... a bad joke | 23:50 |
| M4rtinK | keithzg: eq. long term project sustainability/robustness | 23:50 |
| M4rtinK | keithzg: quite a few projects have been "sunk" by neglecting this | 23:51 |
| M4rtinK | keithzg: parent company abandoning the project/going out of business, key contributor getting bored, the only guy with DNS record access getting missing (hello X.org foundation!), etc. | 23:52 |
| M4rtinK | fennekki: pretty #unrike :) | 23:52 |
| keithzg | M4rtinK: Yeah, if you don't plan for the worst-case scenario for the projects and platforms you rely on, you risk all your own work being for naught. And the unfortunately not-unlikely possibility of a buyout or bankruptcy sellout is particularly worrisome from the perspective of a community relying on closed software... | 23:52 |
| M4rtinK | yeah | 23:53 |
| M4rtinK | also APIs or web/cloud services being shutdown | 23:53 |
| M4rtinK | happens all the time | 23:53 |
| M4rtinK | with pretty bad results in some cases | 23:53 |
| M4rtinK | kinda applies also in this case | 23:55 |
| keithzg | Yeah, it's why I'm one of the crazy people who runs my own ownCloud instance, heh. Absolute worst-case scenario I just have to learn some more PHP ;) | 23:56 |
| M4rtinK | with jolla repos & | 23:56 |
| M4rtinK | I also run my own Owncloud instance | 23:57 |
| M4rtinK | and other stuff | 23:57 |
| M4rtinK | but if only Owncloud was not in PHP... | 23:57 |
| M4rtinK | in some more sane language - ideally Python | 23:58 |
| M4rtinK | then hopefully its developers would be more sane :) | 23:58 |
| M4rtinK | they currently sometimes seem like a bunch of headless Web 2.0 ducks | 23:58 |
| keithzg | Yeah . . . I understand why they went with PHP, though, it's *very* easy to get PHP running on any arbitrary webserver, even most shared hosting can thus run ownCloud without much issue. | 23:59 |
| M4rtinK | at least as far as general stability and especially upgrades go | 23:59 |
| keithzg | The part that baffles me the most is that Contacts and Calendar remain 'unsupported' aspects! | 23:59 |
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