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| pdanek | Good day! | 12:22 |
| ggabriel | friday! | 12:23 |
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| PaulePanter | http://sunweavers.net/blog/node/27 | 13:46 |
| PaulePanter | … almost my exact impressions over 18 months ago. | 13:47 |
| ggabriel | i like the format | 13:48 |
| PaulePanter | Unfortunately certain basic things still do not work reliably causing me to refrain from getting Jolla phones for relatives/friends or recommend it to. | 13:48 |
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| ggabriel | nah, if i'm spending my money, i'd get them a jolla phone | 13:48 |
| ggabriel | trouble is that i'll forever be smartphone support guy | 13:49 |
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| the_mgt | arent you already? | 13:50 |
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| ggabriel | what? spending my money or being the smartphone support guy? :P | 13:50 |
| the_mgt | the latter | 13:51 |
| ggabriel | not really, family is too far away and friends don't want to "bother me" | 13:52 |
| ggabriel | so they change their phone when things go south | 13:52 |
| the_mgt | good for economy, bad for ecology | 13:52 |
| ggabriel | too true | 13:52 |
| ggabriel | but you can recycle phones these days | 13:53 |
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| ggabriel | they give you money | 13:53 |
| ggabriel | at least in the uk | 13:53 |
| ggabriel | it is said that people get the metal out of it | 13:53 |
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| ggabriel | well, and working components for repairs ofc | 13:54 |
| the_mgt | but who does that? most phones rot away in drawers | 13:54 |
| the_mgt | mine, too, mostly | 13:54 |
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| ggabriel | I actually took the time once to get rid of my old phones (after deleting data wink wink) and I got money for a nice dinner | 13:54 |
| ggabriel | so worth doing it, especially if you like eating | 13:55 |
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| tore_ | anyone know where (which file) the database of MCCMNC to human-readable names are stored in SailfishOS? | 14:05 |
| coderus | what is it? | 14:06 |
| coderus | i know what is it | 14:06 |
| coderus | but why you think such database exists in sailfishos? | 14:07 |
| coderus | where it can be used? | 14:07 |
| Stskeeps | tore_: mobile-broadband-provider-info or the modem? | 14:08 |
| tore_ | coderus: so when the gui shows me the list of available providers, I see two "Cosmote" | 14:09 |
| tore_ | I fail to get registered in either of them | 14:09 |
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| coderus | tore_: received by modem | 14:09 |
| coderus | yes operator is broadcasting its mane using symbols | 14:09 |
| coderus | name* | 14:10 |
| coderus | so probably when choosing network you can see something in journal | 14:10 |
| tore_ | but using my laptop I can get registered in one of them fine, so my suspicion is that since Cosmote maps to two different MCCMNCs, when I press either "Cosmote" in the list only a single MCCMNC is attempted | 14:10 |
| coderus | thats pity :( | 14:11 |
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| tore_ | so I wanted to change the names to Cosmote1 and Cosmote2 or something so I was sure I actually did get to try connecting to both | 14:12 |
| tore_ | odd thing though, is that the names seen in my jolla does not match the names the laptop sees | 14:12 |
| tore_ | the ones I get when I speak directly to my laptop's modem | 14:12 |
| tore_ | so I was thinking the jolla had a database of its own | 14:12 |
| coderus | thats not possible | 14:14 |
| coderus | maybe just some caching | 14:14 |
| coderus | but that sounds very unfortunate also | 14:14 |
| tore_ | definitively possible, seen it in serveral countries | 14:14 |
| tore_ | for example 22601 is reported by laptop's modem as "RO Vodafone RO", but by Jolla as "VF Romania" | 14:15 |
| tore_ | 22605 is according to laptop "RO Digi.Mobil", but according to jolla just "22605" | 14:15 |
| Stskeeps | tore_: https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/mobile-broadband-provider-info/blob/master/mobile-broadband-provider-info/serviceproviders.xml | 14:16 |
| Stskeeps | is at least used some places | 14:17 |
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| inz | and it does contain two Cosmotes | 14:17 |
| inz | 20201 and 22603 | 14:18 |
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| tore_ | 20201 must be another country | 14:19 |
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| inz | yes, 202 is greece | 14:23 |
| tore_ | jolla shows these: http://fud.no/jolla-netlist.png | 14:25 |
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| tore_ | laptop's modem otoh: | 14:25 |
| tore_ | AT+COPS=? | 14:25 |
| tore_ | +COPS: (1,"RO Vodafone RO","VF-RO","22601",2),(1,"RO Vodafone RO","VF-RO","22601",0),(3,"RO Digi.Mobil","Digi","22605",2),(1,"RO ORANGE","ORANGE","22610",0),(1,"RO ORANGE","ORANGE","22610",2),(1,"TELEKOM.RO","TELEKOM.RO","22606",2),(1,"RO COSMOTE","COSMOTE","22603",0) | 14:25 |
| tore_ | if you consider capitalisation there's not a single match | 14:26 |
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| tore_ | however... the laptop's modem is 3G-only so it could be that the names shown by the jolla is from the 4G network | 14:28 |
| Stskeeps | might be | 14:28 |
| tore_ | if the providers themselves aren't consistent in what names they broadcast that could explain it | 14:28 |
| inz | tore_, I guess you can see what the modem thinks with this: dbus-send --print-reply --system --dest=org.ofono /ril_0 org.ofono.NetworkRegistration.Scan | 14:29 |
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| Stskeeps | also /system/bin/logcat -b radio | 14:29 |
| Stskeeps | as root | 14:29 |
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| tore_ | let's see.. | 14:33 |
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| tore_ | 12-11 14:35:58.954 D/RILC ( 620): [9627]< QUERY_AVAILABLE_NETWORKS {VF Romania,VF Romania,22601,available,22605,,22605,forbidden,Orange,Orange,22610,current,Cosmote,Cosmote,22606,available,Cosmote,Cosmote,22603,available} | 14:40 |
| tore_ | well I don't know | 14:40 |
| tore_ | *shrug* | 14:40 |
| tore_ | same names in the dbus-send | 14:40 |
| tore_ | is there any dbus-command available for force an operator by MCCMNC instead of names? that way I could force the two "cosmotes" | 14:43 |
| inz | tore_, dbus-send --print-reply --system --dest=org.ofono /ril_0/operator/<MCCMNC> org.ofono.NetworkOperator.Register | 14:46 |
| tore_ | inz: thanks! | 14:47 |
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| pdanek | Guys | 16:10 |
| pdanek | I need Sailfish to be funded!!! | 16:10 |
| pdanek | this is all killing me | 16:10 |
| pdanek | can I get frozen until March 2016? | 16:10 |
| ggabriel | well, there are freezers | 16:10 |
| pdanek | if it's alive and vital, I would be OK | 16:10 |
| pdanek | if it's dead, I would get over it | 16:11 |
| pdanek | but this state of uncertainity is worst | 16:11 |
| ggabriel | but you may reduce your chances of survival significantly | 16:11 |
| pdanek | hmm | 16:11 |
| ggabriel | even more so than those of jolla's ;) | 16:11 |
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| pdanek | btw | 16:12 |
| pdanek | is it just manpower problem why AlienDalvik is stuck with Android 4? | 16:12 |
| pdanek | or some other reason? licensing? etc.? | 16:12 |
| pdanek | even shashlik runtime is with android 5 already and they're starting steps to switch to android 6 | 16:13 |
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| pdanek | Rather positive looking article on Review Jolla blog today. | 16:33 |
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| sharix | pdanek: Thank for the hint, for others who don't have the actual url handy: http://reviewjolla.blogspot.de/2015/12/news-update-debts-on-hold-at-jolla.html#more | 17:09 |
| Stskeeps | pdanek: it was on 4.1.2 before, then on 4.4..? | 17:10 |
| Stskeeps | it's just about getting stable first | 17:10 |
| Stskeeps | before embarking on next | 17:11 |
| ggabriel | no pun intended :P | 17:14 |
| phlixi_o | pdanek: what do you expect from an updated android runtime on the jolla? i am pretty sure in most cases where android apps have problems running on the jolla, it is due to missing google services or similar and mostly not because of the runtime version... | 17:14 |
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| Helle | phlixi_o: missing google services | 17:15 |
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| phlixi_o | ...and everytime i say or write "google services" my brain sings a dystopian "Google Services - We Do the Work, You Do the Pleasure" (as in brazil) | 17:17 |
| phlixi_o | Helle: well thats somethign different and has nithing to do with each other | 17:17 |
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| SKyd3R | :) | 18:29 |
| Stskeeps | evening | 18:31 |
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| Victor | hi | 19:01 |
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| SKyd3R | hello Victor :) | 19:02 |
| Victor | does anyone know what's the state of jolla? | 19:03 |
| Stskeeps | lights still on | 19:04 |
| Stskeeps | perhaps slightly hungover today | 19:04 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:04 |
| Victor | I see | 19:05 |
| Victor | well, nice to know there is still someone there :) | 19:05 |
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| SKyd3R | Jolla care is answering e-mails | 19:07 |
| SKyd3R | so they are still active :) | 19:07 |
| Victor | that's only partially true :) | 19:08 |
| Victor | I had a warranty return in progress and they answered that situation was hard and they'll contact me again in the future | 19:08 |
| Victor | which of course, is totally understandable. No complains | 19:08 |
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| dirkvl | someone still there sleeping on the couch | 19:09 |
| dirkvl | if they have a couch | 19:09 |
| Victor | just wondering what's going to happen overall with sailfish and if is there any possibility of seeing a new version of jolla phone | 19:09 |
| Victor | sometime in the future | 19:09 |
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| Victor | :) | 19:09 |
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| SKyd3R | Victor, I was in your situation. Yestarday Jolla care sent me the FedEx awb copy | 19:11 |
| SKyd3R | :) | 19:11 |
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| Victor | SKyd3R: to be honest, in the current situation I'm not sure if I prefer to send it or not. Now I have a half working phone, and if I send it I might not have a phone at all :) | 19:12 |
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| Victor | but nice to know that there is still someone taking care of handling repairs | 19:13 |
| SKyd3R | I'm in the same situation | 19:13 |
| Victor | SKyd3R: just out of curiosity, what's broken in yours? | 19:14 |
| SKyd3R | but I have hope | 19:14 |
| SKyd3R | I couldn't tell you, I don't know the matter. But the phone isn't able to turn on sometimes (and the alarms don't sound) | 19:15 |
| Victor | by unable to turn on, you mean boot loop? | 19:16 |
| SKyd3R | no | 19:17 |
| SKyd3R | It doesn't react | 19:17 |
| Victor | i see | 19:17 |
| Victor | seems a different problem than mine, then | 19:17 |
| SKyd3R | I have to take remove the battery wait a few minutes and them put it back again | 19:17 |
| SKyd3R | what's yours? | 19:17 |
| Victor | I believe the MMC in the phone is broken | 19:18 |
| Victor | I've had a few cases of data corruption on the file system | 19:18 |
| Victor | I somehow fix it by reflashing it, but then after a few days I get data corruption again | 19:18 |
| Stskeeps | reflashing=factory reset? | 19:18 |
| Victor | in this latest iteration is lasting a little bit more, but I'm expecting to see problems again soon | 19:18 |
| Victor | Stskeeps: not really, factory reset doesn't work because btrfs is totally broken | 19:18 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 19:19 |
| Stskeeps | but yeah, sounds bad | 19:19 |
| Victor | reflashing == dd'ing an image with filesystems built in | 19:19 |
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| Stskeeps | nod | 19:20 |
| Stskeeps | sounds like memory or mmc problem indeed | 19:20 |
| Victor | yep | 19:20 |
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| Victor | as I don't have any tools to do the equivalent of memtest86 I can't really give more meaningful feedback | 19:20 |
| Victor | I believe it was the MMC mostly because while trying to read some blocks it complained until i overwrote those blocks | 19:21 |
| Victor | which seems the typical way of failing for an MMC | 19:21 |
| Victor | you overwrite the block and then you get a replacement one | 19:21 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 19:21 |
| Victor | but I don't discard a problem with memory too | 19:21 |
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| Victor | it would be really nice to have some debugging tools | 19:21 |
| Stskeeps | we don't really have lower level tools to diagnose a emmc | 19:22 |
| Stskeeps | either | 19:22 |
| Victor | Stskeeps: are you working at jolla? | 19:22 |
| Stskeeps | well, was | 19:22 |
| Victor | I see | 19:22 |
| Stskeeps | still tangetially attached | 19:22 |
| Stskeeps | there's a good skeleton crew working atm | 19:22 |
| Victor | sorry, it sucks the current situation | 19:22 |
| Stskeeps | it does. but it's not done for yet | 19:22 |
| Stskeeps | even though it's not nice for anybody involved | 19:23 |
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| Victor | yeah, I guess so, in the end there is so much time you can live without income no matter how idealistic you are about the project | 19:23 |
| Victor | I find it highly unlikely, but do you think is there any chance of seeing jolla as open source? | 19:23 |
| Stskeeps | i think there's always a chance but i think it's minimal right now due to the constraints debt restructuring would put on the company | 19:24 |
| Stskeeps | let's see | 19:24 |
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| Victor | yeah, makes sense | 19:25 |
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| Stskeeps | and it sucks balls that the tablets haven't made it out to people, too | 19:25 |
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| SKyd3R | :( | 19:25 |
| SKyd3R | the tablet is, in fact, a great product | 19:26 |
| Victor | I was thinking on buying one | 19:26 |
| Stskeeps | many of us fought to get the thing out the door, while company had difficulties paying wages even | 19:26 |
| Stskeeps | well, not many, all of us | 19:26 |
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| Stskeeps | so it's hard seeing what some people write online about us being scammers; or other very illogical things | 19:26 |
| Victor | I'm not sure I would find a great use for it (IMO all tables are useless) but with enough openness maybe it was a nice portable laptop with a good linux interface | 19:27 |
| Victor | well, situation is hard and all the crowdfunding is really tricky: | 19:27 |
| Victor | if you succeed you get to keep all the benefits, stock and money | 19:28 |
| Victor | if you fail, people lose | 19:28 |
| SKyd3R | Stskeeps, do you think Jolla will be back "soon"? | 19:28 |
| Stskeeps | SKyd3R: let's see; not dead yet | 19:28 |
| Stskeeps | SKyd3R: i have my hopes up since i want the story to continue, and well, get my wage ;) | 19:28 |
| SKyd3R | haha, sure | 19:28 |
| Victor | Stskeeps: good luck | 19:29 |
| Stskeeps | and sometimes the best way to do that is to help fight for it in small ways | 19:29 |
| SKyd3R | and thanks for all the fish! | 19:29 |
| Victor | I really hope you guys get lucky and we'll see another big player competing in the mobile sector | 19:29 |
| Victor | :) | 19:29 |
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| Stskeeps | well, it'd certainly be sad if the future of devices that are essentially part of our minds, would be sole purpose to addict us, get into our wallets, make us consume, not create, sell our own created data and tie us to middlemen forever... | 19:30 |
| tbr | think: "they live" but on steroids | 19:30 |
| Stskeeps | heh, indeed | 19:31 |
| tbr | and we're all here to kick ass and chew bubble gum, but we're all "outta gum"! | 19:31 |
| Victor | I would love to see hardware standardized so that open source operating systems could grow | 19:31 |
| Stskeeps | well, that's the thing | 19:31 |
| Victor | but I think that we're done with that with x86 | 19:31 |
| Victor | and most mobiles are ARM | 19:31 |
| Stskeeps | hardware is actually standardized.. with android HAL | 19:31 |
| Victor | so no luck over there | 19:31 |
| Victor | :) | 19:31 |
| tbr | android is the new BSP | 19:32 |
| Stskeeps | which is fine, since sailfish can leverage that* (* with a big of goat sacrificing) | 19:32 |
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| Victor | Stskeeps: HAL is an userland API | 19:32 |
| Stskeeps | sure | 19:32 |
| Victor | Stskeeps: the problem is drivers and blobs | 19:32 |
| Stskeeps | but be able to adapt to that, and you can make a product today | 19:32 |
| Victor | userland APIs are nice to have, but you can build them at any point | 19:32 |
| Stskeeps | naah. | 19:33 |
| Victor | reversing drivers and open sourcing them on devices that have a life time of less than 2 years, is simply not worth the effort | 19:33 |
| Stskeeps | drivers and blobs are easy to get from a device maker | 19:33 |
| Victor | so it doesn't happen | 19:33 |
| Victor | :) | 19:33 |
| Stskeeps | if you can speak to them, even better | 19:33 |
| Stskeeps | come and claim you want X11 support and they'll stare at you | 19:33 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:33 |
| Victor | well, the fact that you (jolla) can get them because you're willing to sell a few thousand units is nice | 19:34 |
| Victor | but it doesn't mean John Doe will | 19:34 |
| Victor | :) | 19:34 |
| Stskeeps | you can get pretty decent deals nowadays | 19:34 |
| Stskeeps | and don't assume we get anything but binaries, either | 19:34 |
| Stskeeps | but! | 19:34 |
| Stskeeps | we know what API/ABI they have. | 19:34 |
| Victor | and even if he will, is still a problem while upgrading the system to newer versions, because linux kernel ABI is not specially recognized for being backwards compatible | 19:34 |
| Victor | :) | 19:34 |
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| Stskeeps | ah, well | 19:34 |
| Stskeeps | the linux kernel upgrade is a totally different nightmare | 19:35 |
| Stskeeps | i find it more of a problem that we can't even get our own experiences on devices that are genuinely ours | 19:35 |
| Victor | drivers is a big part of that. If you can't abstract the HW you can't build anything on top of it | 19:35 |
| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: im starting to think its a consumer law issue these days, since many devices are user hostile or contain hidden 'features' out of the box | 19:36 |
| Victor | but I guess we're agreeing, just talking about different focuses | 19:36 |
| Victor | I speak more with a developer hat on | 19:36 |
| Victor | and you speak more with a user hat on | 19:36 |
| Stskeeps | sure, but i'm also both :P | 19:36 |
| Victor | sure, same here | 19:36 |
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| Victor | but while I like the idea of sailfish and I do have one jolla phone and I think there are a lot of wonderful things in it | 19:37 |
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| Stskeeps | well, the jolla phone is essentially a customized android reference that we adapted sailfishos to, by leveraging the existence of known good HAL apis | 19:37 |
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| Victor | from a purely technical point of view, there are a lot of things that are just promises but not actually real | 19:37 |
| r0kk3rz | Victor: it helps to put different hats on to analyse an issue, a lawyer/gov hat, consumer hat, dev hat .etc | 19:37 |
| Victor | :) | 19:37 |
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| Victor | r0kk3rz: agree | 19:37 |
| Stskeeps | i have my own ideas (besides jolla, well, maybe same spirit, and sailfishos), as well | 19:37 |
| Stskeeps | let's see how they manifest | 19:38 |
| Victor | I saw on osnews a few references to people maybe trying to build something as open source based on MER | 19:38 |
| Stskeeps | probably not a bad idea | 19:38 |
| Victor | I'm not sure if that's going anywhere and how much people is willing to spend their time on it | 19:38 |
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| r0kk3rz | the more things that use a standard linuxy top layer the more chance we get OEMs to support linux drivers | 19:39 |
| Victor | but is a substantial multiyear effort | 19:39 |
| Stskeeps | that was ironically the whole idea of sailfishos open source policy; to make people work on alternative UXes (smartwatch, IVI, etc etc) using a stable core, that they didn't have to maintain | 19:39 |
| Victor | r0kk3rz: I don't think OEMs do care about any distribution that's not the one they bundle | 19:39 |
| Stskeeps | r0kk3rz: even if sailfishos was a raging success it'd take 4 more years after that | 19:39 |
| r0kk3rz | Victor: sure, but it depends on the market, on the industrial embedded board market, linux is king | 19:40 |
| Victor | Stskeeps: so you would provide the HW abstraction layer and leave the whole UI as OSS? | 19:40 |
| Victor | r0kk3rz: sure, but a big industrial board doesn't need a pretty interface :P | 19:40 |
| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: nobody is expecting overnight wins on this | 19:40 |
| Victor | r0kk3rz: and the main focus is phones | 19:40 |
| r0kk3rz | Victor: sure its a different market, as i said, but OEMs need to deliver what their customers demand | 19:41 |
| r0kk3rz | provided there is adequate demand | 19:41 |
| Stskeeps | Victor: a given sailfishos device is basically mer core + [a hw adaptation, incl. the android drivers, with a boatload of closed source] + sailfishos ui on top | 19:41 |
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| Victor | what's the main difference between sailfish UI and standar MER one? | 19:42 |
| Stskeeps | mer doesnt' have one :) | 19:43 |
| Victor | (I haven't used MER ever as stand alone or even tinkered with it) | 19:43 |
| Victor | but there was something that now I can't remember the name... | 19:43 |
| Victor | lipstick! | 19:43 |
| Victor | that was it | 19:43 |
| Victor | isn't that an UI? | 19:43 |
| Stskeeps | lipstick is a framework | 19:43 |
| r0kk3rz | Victor: theres a reason for that, thats not what mer is intended to be | 19:43 |
| Victor | what kind of framework? ie: what does it abstract? | 19:43 |
| Stskeeps | it makes it a fuckload easier to do wayland homescreens in qml | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | well, compositors | 19:44 |
| Victor | I see, so a bunch of widgets? | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | nah | 19:44 |
| Victor | or is lower level, let's say GDK style? | 19:44 |
| r0kk3rz | Victor: its a wayland client implementation yeah? | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | .desktop file handling, notifications, display control, .. | 19:45 |
| Stskeeps | a couple of other things | 19:45 |
| Victor | Stskeeps: I see, that makes sense | 19:45 |
| Victor | so is much more about overall UI (I'd normally use desktop, but...) integration, than just a drawing/widget library | 19:45 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 19:45 |
| Stskeeps | qt's the ui engine | 19:45 |
| locusf | compositor too | 19:46 |
| Stskeeps | ah, yeah | 19:46 |
| Victor | I see | 19:46 |
| Stskeeps | but that kinda comes from qtcompositor | 19:46 |
| Victor | it was a bit confusing for my trying to have a clear viewpoint of exactly what's each thing | 19:47 |
| Victor | because there is not a lot of documentation around | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 19:47 |
| locusf | well lipstick homescreen just implements it | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | racing to stay sustainable/alive | 19:47 |
| Victor | yeah | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | not an excuse for everything | 19:47 |
| Victor | I understand, wasn't intended to be a complain | 19:47 |
| r0kk3rz | theres also a lot different about modern linuxy stuff that itself doesnt have heaps of documentation | 19:48 |
| Stskeeps | personally i'm getting to a point where i wonder if it's worth it to worry if it's glibc or bionic running; as long as it's the experience and the UX is the one controlling the knobs and the knobs do as they're specified to do.. | 19:48 |
| Stskeeps | ie, if you could install your own experience on a ton of android devices with an hour worth of porting, wouldn't that do more for user/consumer freedom than giving them glibc and xterm would? :) | 19:49 |
| Stskeeps | it'd be a cop-out, but even with android, there's ways to be quite open source | 19:49 |
| r0kk3rz | glibc helps from a 'compiling random packages' perspective though yeah? | 19:49 |
| Victor | Stskeeps: I guess it depends on what you want to be freed from. Underlying libraries and what they do, matter :) | 19:50 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, but to be honest, it's limited how useful those are in the modern mobile world | 19:50 |
| Jope | not that many people care about those random pkgs | 19:50 |
| Jope | they want the appz | 19:50 |
| Stskeeps | and autoconf against android ndk actually makes most things work | 19:50 |
| Jope | the proprietary closed apps | 19:50 |
| r0kk3rz | true, but *I* care | 19:50 |
| Stskeeps | yup | 19:50 |
| Jope | sure, but unfortunately you are in the minority :-) | 19:50 |
| Victor | Jope: but that's always been the same: the OS only provides building blocks for the apps, is an abstraction. Maybe it provides a beautiful interface, but is only a building block | 19:51 |
| Victor | the thing that matters is the apps | 19:51 |
| Victor | the apps allow you to do things | 19:51 |
| Victor | and an operating system without applications is not very useful | 19:51 |
| r0kk3rz | Jope: in a market of millions of devices each year, surely theres room for minorities | 19:51 |
| Stskeeps | r0kk3rz: it's very very hard to run a mobile OS on a sustainable business model today; where OS'es are practically 0% | 19:51 |
| Jope | well, more minorities should have voted with their wallets or something :--D | 19:51 |
| Stskeeps | and any benefits are only at higher volumes | 19:51 |
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| Stskeeps | er, 0 EUR | 19:51 |
| r0kk3rz | Jope: agreed | 19:51 |
| Jope | well, the story isn't over quite yet | 19:52 |
| r0kk3rz | Jope: i was attempting to do that by purchasing a jphone and ordering a jtab | 19:52 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, still continuing | 19:52 |
| Stskeeps | the above being my own thoughts | 19:52 |
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| Jope | yep, they're not quite bankrupt yet. :-) | 19:52 |
| Jope | so there is a chance. no idea how slim/thick it s | 19:52 |
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| Stskeeps | i'd like to see a completely different alternative succeed; with glibc, coreutils, and all the stuff | 19:53 |
| Jope | I wouldn't mind it either | 19:53 |
| Victor | I think more competition is always good | 19:53 |
| Stskeeps | but we're rapidly heading to a world where consumer freedom in general is threatened | 19:53 |
| Jope | otoh I must say that now that I'm an android user, my life is simpler | 19:53 |
| Jope | stuff works with less effort | 19:53 |
| Stskeeps | or even human freedom | 19:53 |
| Jope | even though the nicely flowing ui is not there now.. | 19:53 |
| Jope | meaning gestures for accept/cancel or task switch | 19:53 |
| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: i can feel that scope creeping | 19:54 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. but having access to the source isn't going to change much in that regard :/ | 19:54 |
| Stskeeps | what matters is volume | 19:54 |
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| Stskeeps | as in | 19:54 |
| Victor | Stskeeps: I think that different people value different things. Knowing who's the target audience of your product and knowing who you need to make it succesful is key for that | 19:55 |
| Jope | goes to eleven! | 19:55 |
| Stskeeps | sure | 19:55 |
| Victor | and you don't need to become the first OS to be succesful | 19:55 |
| Victor | :) | 19:55 |
| Stskeeps | but even android forks have big trouble :) | 19:55 |
| Victor | and btw, more often than not, target audience and who depends your success on, aren't usually the same subset of people | 19:55 |
| Victor | :) | 19:55 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. | 19:55 |
| Stskeeps | let's say that i have the option to have a smartwatch where the vendor gives out the entire android source code tree that's used minus the chipset vendor bits, that are seperately pull-able from a device.. that's quite good | 19:56 |
| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: there are a few niche hardware players around these days though, wileyfox, oneplus, yota, fairphone, maybe puzzlephone | 19:56 |
| Stskeeps | from my open source mindset, that's enough | 19:56 |
| Stskeeps | what i don't like is a device where i can't recreate the same experience, naturally | 19:57 |
| Stskeeps | as how i got it | 19:57 |
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| r0kk3rz | yeah thats a pragmatic way of looking at it | 19:57 |
| Stskeeps | (this being my own personal view) | 19:57 |
| Stskeeps | not that i have any other atm :p | 19:57 |
| Stskeeps | when i started libhybris it was heresy to even use the android drivers :) | 19:58 |
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| r0kk3rz | but arent most android phones using closed source vendor UIs? im thinking touchwiz here | 19:58 |
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| Stskeeps | sure | 19:58 |
| Stskeeps | because they think they can actually differentiate on that | 19:58 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:58 |
| Jope | in reality no-one cares and they wish the vendors would stay out of the way ;-) | 19:59 |
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| Victor | Stskeeps: from the insider point of view, what was the differentiator of jolla? | 19:59 |
| Stskeeps | Victor: not sure how to say that after a few beers, :) | 19:59 |
| Stskeeps | what i want is simple: devices that have the android source code available + the binaries available from a device, that i can build and flash to my device and it'll work; and being able to strip out all the UX parts of android and run my own UX instead | 20:00 |
| Stskeeps | that's 'good enough' | 20:00 |
| r0kk3rz | its a step in the right direction at any rate | 20:00 |
| Stskeeps | the source being the reason it might actually get audited to some degree and get security updates | 20:00 |
| Stskeeps | and ideally, stop caring about if something is android 4.4 or 6.0 | 20:01 |
| SKyd3R | thanks for the interesting conversation here, but I have to leave cya! | 20:01 |
| Stskeeps | cya | 20:01 |
| Victor | bye SKyd3R | 20:01 |
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| Victor | Stskeeps: interesting view point | 20:01 |
| Victor | was that the viewpoint shared by the rest of jolla? | 20:02 |
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| Jope | I doubt that discussion has really been had there.. | 20:02 |
| Stskeeps | Victor: sailfishos has a specific agenda, to be very seperate from android, as that's what's wished by most bigger partners, or ODMs as they're afraid to piss off google and risk google service distribution on their other devices | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | Victor: not to mention the whole heritage from meego .. the people of the company is very much matching the OS | 20:04 |
| Stskeeps | had we been a android fork, it would have been different people, different company | 20:04 |
| Victor | i see | 20:04 |
| Stskeeps | you can love your own tools too much. | 20:04 |
| Stskeeps | doesn't always mean it's the right way to approach the market | 20:05 |
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| Victor | :) | 20:05 |
| Stskeeps | but the same things that made jolla interesting for investors and partners, still exist today, as it did several years ago | 20:05 |
| pp_ | if you run android, you do want 6.0ish for the stuff sailfish does, for apps 4.x is just fine for now :-) | 20:05 |
| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: to be fair the n9/Harmattan never really got given a chance, so I can understand why some ex-nokians might have been interested to see how it could have panned out | 20:05 |
| * pp_ runs | 20:06 | |
| Stskeeps | r0kk3rz: yeah, but harmattan was also an unportable mess | 20:06 |
| Stskeeps | when you get run around by chinese ODMs with ducttape and perl scripts.. | 20:06 |
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| Victor | lol, perl scripts | 20:06 |
| * Victor hides | 20:06 | |
| Stskeeps | and perforce installations | 20:07 |
| * Stskeeps shrugs | 20:07 | |
| r0kk3rz | thats a story i havent heard, but perl scripts are legendary enough on their own | 20:07 |
| * pp_ clobbers everyone with the symbian buildsystem | 20:07 | |
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| Stskeeps | but consider the fact that sailfishos felt like a modern OS on top of ancient android adaptations (like, 4.1.2) | 20:09 |
| Stskeeps | so perception matters a lot | 20:09 |
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| Stskeeps | so, yeah | 20:11 |
| Stskeeps | worth considering what kind of company you'd build today instead | 20:11 |
| Stskeeps | or if it's even a company. | 20:11 |
| pdanek | Stskeeps: Android has SE Linux implemented since version 4.3. | 20:12 |
| pdanek | Ubuntu Touch has it from the very neginning (App Armor equivalent) | 20:12 |
| Stskeeps | pdanek: sure, that's not the topic we are in | 20:12 |
| pdanek | I'm still so surprised how can modern mobile OS project be started without it. | 20:12 |
| Stskeeps | check backlog | 20:12 |
| pdanek | oh | 20:12 |
| pdanek | sorry | 20:12 |
| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: yeah most of us around here dont have much experience company building | 20:14 |
| Stskeeps | Victor: but anyway, i can take a unmodified android device nowadays, without access to sources, as long as i have the boot.img, and ability to flash things to it, an understanding of the closest android source version, remove a few things here and there, start up only the useful android services and talk to them, and start up own QML UI, with about an hour of porting work; that can be installed like an android ROM.. | 20:15 |
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| Stskeeps | Victor: if i had a source tree for the device, even better, but it'd be mostly postprocessing.. | 20:15 |
| Stskeeps | hour of porting work being 90% building qt | 20:16 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:16 |
| r0kk3rz | sounds promising, so reusing the middleware and focussing on the ui? | 20:17 |
| Stskeeps | as an example | 20:17 |
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| Stskeeps | but as you can also hear, it's not really a sailfishos thing :) | 20:18 |
| r0kk3rz | sounds kinda fxosy to me | 20:18 |
| Stskeeps | firefox os was way worse | 20:18 |
| r0kk3rz | so i hear | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | they very invasively patched their android trees from my knowledge | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | or introduced qcom-isms | 20:19 |
| r0kk3rz | qcom-isms? | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | qualcomm-isms, like relying on certain functionality | 20:19 |
| r0kk3rz | specific hacks for specific devices? | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | the less work you need to do on top of a ODM-provided source tree the better | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | r0kk3rz: yeah, kinda | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | it's all about how you fit into the product making process | 20:20 |
| r0kk3rz | sure | 20:20 |
| Victor | Stskeeps: are you starting a new project with that target in mind and mer as bsae? | 20:22 |
| Victor | base* | 20:22 |
| Stskeeps | Victor: mer isn't involved | 20:22 |
| Stskeeps | mer is a collection of software packages though, so maybe some overlap | 20:22 |
| Stskeeps | (qt based stuff ports nicely) | 20:22 |
| Stskeeps | Victor: but anyway, it's called cuteboot; kind of like an enabler to do even more fun things, https://github.com/cuteboot/build/blob/master/README.md | 20:23 |
| Stskeeps | planning to speak more about it at FOSDEM if i get accepted :P | 20:23 |
| Stskeeps | so in such a setup it'd be cuteboot + [hw adaptation] + [some ui] | 20:24 |
| Victor | sounds cool | 20:26 |
| Stskeeps | let's see.. doesn't mean i've given up on mer/sailfishos, but betting on multiple horses doesn't hurt | 20:26 |
| r0kk3rz | shotgun strategy is best in this case | 20:26 |
| r0kk3rz | if you need someone to spin some qml, im game :P | 20:27 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 20:27 |
| Stskeeps | the other problem is also that mobile devices are rapidly approaching zero cost | 20:29 |
| Stskeeps | or 'just enough to pay a margin' | 20:29 |
| Stskeeps | not to mention that most devices are 'good enough' | 20:30 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:30 |
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| r0kk3rz | the funny thing is, most users whom i talk to, are thinking about switching from android | 20:35 |
| r0kk3rz | usually to windows phone | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | android is the new symbian | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:35 |
| r0kk3rz | mostly because its the 'defacto alternative' i think | 20:36 |
| coderus | most peoples i know still saving money to buy iphone, because it ridiculous overpriced in russia | 20:47 |
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| Mikaela | Isn't it everywhere? | 20:48 |
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| coderus | i don't know, tell me :) | 20:54 |
| Stskeeps | it is, but probably even more in russia :P | 20:55 |
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| pdanek | Stskeeps: So you're quite involved in Android development, aren't you? | 21:13 |
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| Stskeeps | pdanek: no | 21:14 |
| Stskeeps | pdanek: i know look beyond my own backyard and explore things, despite them not being my favourite technologies | 21:15 |
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| pdanek | Stskeeps: I'm asking because of the cuteboot | 21:26 |
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