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| Tofe | Stskeeps: what about checking the uefi password (if that ever exists) against the SIM pin code ? | 09:30 |
|---|---|---|
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| Yaniel | nice idea | 09:31 |
| Tofe | (if there's no SIM, then there's no unlock, let's say) | 09:31 |
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| Tofe | nice, but maybe not realistic: it may be that it would require some drivers to work | 09:32 |
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| Yaniel | yeah | 09:32 |
| Yaniel | what about sims without a PIN set? | 09:32 |
| Tofe | well, then, why having uefi secured ? :) | 09:33 |
| Yaniel | true | 09:33 |
| Yaniel | I wonder how many people these days don't bother setting a pin | 09:33 |
| Yaniel | earlier sim cards at least had one by default | 09:34 |
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| temmi_moo | if the phone is stolen, it is on and can be used to call | 09:34 |
| Tofe | the pin is not very invasive: you put it once, and then never reboot | 09:34 |
| Tofe | temmi_moo: if it is on, then it doesn't check against uefi anyway | 09:35 |
| Tofe | the discussion being on how to unlock uefi without throwing uefi security away | 09:35 |
| temmi_moo | ah | 09:36 |
| Tofe | (I agree the topic of the discussion was kindof never said :) ) | 09:36 |
| Tofe | Yaniel: the latest sim I received, one year ago, had one by default too | 09:37 |
| Yaniel | mine didn't | 09:38 |
| temmi_moo | i like to be able to boot without a sim | 09:40 |
| Yaniel | booting is one thing | 09:40 |
| Yaniel | but entering uefi settings another | 09:40 |
| temmi_moo | so you'd need the same sim than was used to make the settings | 09:41 |
| temmi_moo | how would you replace that sim? | 09:41 |
| Yaniel | obviusly you should be able to boot & use the device without a sim | 09:41 |
| temmi_moo | so how would you go on to replace that sacred and special sim with another one? | 09:42 |
| Tofe | temmi_moo: you have a point here | 09:43 |
| Yaniel | unlock, replace, lock? | 09:44 |
| Yaniel | not exactly ideal | 09:44 |
| Tofe | Yaniel: that would make selling quite unfriendly | 09:45 |
| Yaniel | yeah | 09:45 |
| temmi_moo | what if the sacred sim breaks? | 09:45 |
| temmi_moo | no unlocking any more | 09:45 |
| Tofe | ok, associating with the sim isn't such a great idea after all | 09:45 |
| Yaniel | !next | 09:45 |
| Merbot` | Yaniel: Error: "next" is not a valid command. | 09:45 |
| Tofe | so, back to another master passcode | 09:45 |
| Yaniel | :P | 09:45 |
| Tofe | the problem being what to chose "by default", when received from Jolla | 09:46 |
| Tofe | xritten on the box, next to the IMEI code? | 09:46 |
| Tofe | then what if the user throws away the box | 09:47 |
| temmi_moo | possibly also stored in the jolla hq? | 09:47 |
| Tofe | storing passwords plain is rarely a good idea | 09:47 |
| temmi_moo | well | 09:47 |
| Yaniel | nothing and prompt user at first boot? | 09:47 |
| temmi_moo | it could be the public key of a keypair where the secret never leaved the jolla device | 09:47 |
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| temmi_moo | so the public one is just not world-public but known to jolla and whoever buys the phone | 09:48 |
| temmi_moo | also printed next to imei | 09:48 |
| Tofe | temmi_moo: ah, a pgp approach looks promising | 09:48 |
| temmi_moo | i'm fighting with a similar topic now | 09:48 |
| Yaniel | better, yes | 09:48 |
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| temmi_moo | how to make a small embedded device fresh with mf firmware find out who is the master controller in a local network where it has no knowledge of the network | 09:49 |
| temmi_moo | to establish who is a good guy and who are polish script kiddies | 09:49 |
| temmi_moo | also how to tell the local controller that i'm not a script kiddie but a legit new device | 09:49 |
| Yaniel | hehe, fun times | 09:50 |
| Yaniel | but yeah public key stuff hmm... | 09:50 |
| temmi_moo | in modern times the script kiddies are already everywhere, even in local wired networks | 09:50 |
| Yaniel | everyone is a script koddie until proven otherwise | 09:50 |
| Yaniel | kiddie even | 09:51 |
| Tofe | I wonder why would the public key be more safe than a simple password | 09:51 |
| temmi_moo | i'm trying to prevent my devices from being another stuxxnet amplifier or part of a future cuckoo's egg story | 09:51 |
| Tofe | if it is as hard to get as a plain password stored at jolla | 09:52 |
| Yaniel | why store it at jolla in the first place? | 09:53 |
| Tofe | if the user throws away the box with the key | 09:53 |
| temmi_moo | the input method could be camera so you could have relevant length in the passphrase | 09:53 |
| temmi_moo | text input is annoying especially if said text is to be a good passphrase | 09:54 |
| Yaniel | qr unlock codes? :D | 09:54 |
| temmi_moo | yes | 09:54 |
| Tofe | why not | 09:54 |
| Tofe | but then it's at bootloader level, having the camera working there could be quite difficult | 09:54 |
| temmi_moo | ah | 09:54 |
| Yaniel | that could be used to unlock the bootloader from inside the OS though | 09:54 |
| temmi_moo | dunno, depends, possibly | 09:54 |
| temmi_moo | these devices are a bit more complex than a c-64 | 09:55 |
| Tofe | Yaniel: you're right, no need to be in uefi | 09:55 |
| Yaniel | and if you want to unlock it from fastboot/recovery mode whatever you know enough to copy&paste from your jolla account | 09:55 |
| Tofe | well, I guess, at least | 09:55 |
| Tofe | Yaniel: but we're still in the "device stolen" scenario | 09:56 |
| Yaniel | yes? | 09:57 |
| Yaniel | you get the qr code either from the box or via your web browser - after logging in with your jolla account | 09:58 |
| temmi_moo | indeed | 09:58 |
| Yaniel | if the phone is stolen tey'd have to log in to your jolla account on some pc/other | 09:58 |
| Yaniel | or find the box | 09:58 |
| Yaniel | for bonus points the code could be changed every time it is used via the web | 09:58 |
| Yaniel | ie the device uploads a new code after accepting it | 09:59 |
| Tofe | looks good, let me think a bit :) | 09:59 |
| Yaniel | essentially this would mean that the device uploads its code along with imei and whatever upon registration | 10:00 |
| Tofe | Yaniel: maybe that's a bit too complex for the need | 10:01 |
| Yaniel | making the code single-use? | 10:02 |
| Tofe | yes | 10:02 |
| Yaniel | yeah | 10:02 |
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| Tofe | after all, if the tablet is stolen, having a locked uefi doesn't prevent from booting it | 10:03 |
| Tofe | just keeps the firmware safe, so no backdoor there | 10:03 |
| Yaniel | what about when the phone is sold | 10:03 |
| Yaniel | maybe add an option to generate a new key after authenticating? | 10:04 |
| Tofe | well, you need to show that you bought the device in some way | 10:05 |
| Yaniel | or even do it automatically when registering the device to a new jolla account | 10:05 |
| Tofe | the only difference between sold and stolen is that the seller can give information about the product | 10:06 |
| Yaniel | yes | 10:06 |
| temmi_moo | having the device register a new key presumes having a network connection | 10:06 |
| Yaniel | the seller can give information to anyone | 10:06 |
| Tofe | Yaniel: the seller might give an "account closure" code to the buyer | 10:07 |
| Yaniel | hmm? | 10:07 |
| Tofe | mmmh no, that's too strong | 10:08 |
| Tofe | just an account transmission code | 10:08 |
| Yaniel | I mean if we assume a malicious seller | 10:08 |
| Yaniel | they could write down the code | 10:08 |
| Yaniel | sell the device and then sell the code to some 3rd party | 10:08 |
| Tofe | malicious, i.e. stole the device? | 10:08 |
| temmi_moo | malicious as in wanting evil things for the next owner | 10:09 |
| Yaniel | unlikely but not ruled out | 10:09 |
| Tofe | ah, no, you get the code from your jolla account | 10:09 |
| temmi_moo | the previous owner should be gotten rid of during a legit transaction | 10:09 |
| Tofe | temmi_moo: if he wants evil things, if will succeed, whatever the security. | 10:09 |
| Yaniel | yes | 10:09 |
| Yaniel | including lock codes | 10:09 |
| Tofe | he* | 10:09 |
| Tofe | so, to make it short, a proposal would be an uefi unlock code stored in your jolla account and associated to a given device, right? | 10:11 |
| Yaniel | yes | 10:11 |
| Yaniel | my point is that after a legit sale the previous owner should not know the lock code | 10:11 |
| temmi_moo | yes and yes | 10:11 |
| Tofe | Stskeeps: ^ | 10:11 |
| temmi_moo | there needs to be a way to register the device ownership transaction | 10:12 |
| Tofe | right | 10:12 |
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| temmi_moo | also a backup system for this in case the previous owner just doesn't act at all ignoring all requests | 10:12 |
| Yaniel | but trackign people and devices should be avoided as far as possible | 10:13 |
| temmi_moo | exactly | 10:13 |
| r0kk3rz | Tofe: problem there is that you need a jolla account and associated infrastructure to get the code | 10:14 |
| temmi_moo | this needs some amount of thought that what exactly is the information and what is the essential flow of information | 10:14 |
| temmi_moo | paper and pencil stuff | 10:14 |
| temmi_moo | before jumping to code | 10:14 |
| Tofe | r0kk3rz: without a jolla account, no update, no apps... nothing | 10:14 |
| temmi_moo | storing the least possible amount of information in least possible places | 10:15 |
| Tofe | r0kk3rz: or am I mistaken | 10:15 |
| r0kk3rz | Tofe: yeah but we're talking about the device itself, rather than the OS | 10:15 |
| temmi_moo | it could be thought of normalizing a distributed rdbms schema | 10:15 |
| Tofe | r0kk3rz: but it's Jolla that sells the device, we have to make some assumptions | 10:15 |
| r0kk3rz | so say you bought a jolla tablet, and a few years down the track jolla doesnt actually exist anymore (sad). and you want to unlock the UEFI and put android on it? | 10:16 |
| r0kk3rz | what do you do? | 10:16 |
| temmi_moo | r0kk3rz: another valid concern | 10:16 |
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| r0kk3rz | if its tied to jolla servers you're basically boned. | 10:17 |
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| Tofe | r0kk3rz: ok, but if it's tied to only the device it means that a hack will break it soon | 10:17 |
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| Tofe | r0kk3rz: so we can think of a code written on the box for example, but then the box becomes very important and shouldn't be lost | 10:18 |
| r0kk3rz | Tofe: you're right, but thats not exactly an 'open device' then is it? | 10:18 |
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| temmi_moo | there is a balancing act: is openness more important than secureness? | 10:20 |
| r0kk3rz | had the idea yesterday that an alternative method is to get the tablet to wipe itself when secureboot is disabled | 10:20 |
| Tofe | r0kk3rz: I don't want to wipe my device just to try things! | 10:20 |
| r0kk3rz | tofe: if its your device, then you can make backups | 10:21 |
| temmi_moo | both could be made possible | 10:21 |
| r0kk3rz | if its not your device, then it stops people from getting at the owners data | 10:21 |
| temmi_moo | it's not like you can implement only the wipe-option and not the cloud-backed key option or vice versa | 10:21 |
| temmi_moo | r0kk3rz: yes | 10:21 |
| Tofe | r0kk3rz: it doesn't stop people: lock uefi doesn't prevent booting | 10:21 |
| temmi_moo | that's also a way to solve the passive previous owner | 10:21 |
| r0kk3rz | Tofe: this is assuming that the OS and lockscreen are secure (big assumpton i know) | 10:22 |
| Tofe | r0kk3rz: well, then, uefi lock is only useful for preventing malicious software | 10:22 |
| Tofe | r0kk3rz: which means we just need a big button "unlock uefi" app | 10:23 |
| r0kk3rz | and booting the device to another OS and using that to probe the original partition for data | 10:23 |
| Tofe | r0kk3rz: you can do that from Sailfish | 10:24 |
| Tofe | I don't see any scenario where the lockscreen is unsafe and uefi lock prevents stealing data | 10:25 |
| r0kk3rz | well no, if the OS is insecure then it doesnt matter what the boot chain is like | 10:25 |
| r0kk3rz | but the OS can get better over time | 10:26 |
| r0kk3rz | the UEFI stuff needs to be right out the gate | 10:26 |
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| Tofe | yes, but that means uefi only is useful to ensure there's no data corruption, not to ensure it's the correct user that is using the device | 10:26 |
| Tofe | for that, there's the lockscreen | 10:27 |
| Tofe | so once you are past the lockscreen, you can safely disable the uefi -- if you can prove you are not a malicious software ;) | 10:28 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah, main issue with that is the device has to boot that far | 10:28 |
| Tofe | why is that an issue? | 10:29 |
| Tofe | it is how it is working currently with the recovery on the jolla | 10:29 |
| r0kk3rz | jolla doesnt have UEFI | 10:29 |
| Tofe | no, but has a lockscreen on recovery | 10:29 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah its probably not a big concern | 10:30 |
| Tofe | maybe the software that unlocks uefi just needs to be signed with the uefi encryption | 10:31 |
| Tofe | s/encryption/private key/ | 10:31 |
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| Tofe | mmmh no, not sufficient to ensure it's a human that starts the unlocking process | 10:32 |
| Tofe | What offline technology is there today to ensure that? It must have been solved already... | 10:33 |
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| r0kk3rz | i dont think it has | 10:36 |
| r0kk3rz | without doing facial recognition or biometrics or something like that | 10:36 |
| r0kk3rz | which of course can be broken | 10:36 |
| Tofe | Ah, I think there may be a way: you have an app that loads an unlock boot in uefi program, already signed with private key. Then, you will have to reboot to that mode (so usb+power+vol up for instance, conciously), and if you don't reboot with that mode it deletes this boot until next request | 10:37 |
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| Tofe | yes, that might be reasonable | 10:38 |
| Tofe | Stskeeps: ^ another proposal :) | 10:39 |
| Tofe | maybe the unlock program would only be available as part of the recovery | 10:40 |
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| * Stskeeps reads backlog | 10:42 | |
| Tofe | Stskeeps: maybe some essential points have been missed/lost durng the conversation, though I hope not | 10:44 |
| Stskeeps | good conversation | 10:45 |
| Tofe | Stskeeps: do you agree uefi lock only prevents boot chain corruption, and not unwanted usage on a stolen device? | 10:46 |
| Stskeeps | right now you can go and disable secureboot/change keys though a bootup button in practice | 10:47 |
| Stskeeps | which kinda blows out secure checks of boot chain for purposes of defeating unwanted usage | 10:47 |
| Tofe | Stskeeps: yes, thus the mandatory step of going through lockscreen | 10:48 |
| Tofe | to unlock uefi | 10:48 |
| Stskeeps | yes | 10:48 |
| Stskeeps | some people might frown on that, as that means having to accept EULA .. ;) | 10:48 |
| Tofe | ah well, if they buy a Jolla device but refuse Sailfish, I don't see the point... | 10:49 |
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| Stskeeps | at the moment i'm thinking a combo of disabling the 'uefi settings' key combo and a shim with MOK keys you can configure if you want | 10:50 |
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| Tofe | so not going through lockscreen? | 10:53 |
| Tofe | would there be a way to go through recovery+lockscreen to unlock uefi without EULA ? If no EULA has been accepted yet, it means no sailfish, so no data yet | 10:55 |
| Tofe | seems not like a good idea though | 10:57 |
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| Stskeeps | well, disabling it after first boot maybe | 11:10 |
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| tbr | makes sense | 11:13 |
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| Stskeeps | admittedly you can't tell if device was then pre-compromised, but .. | 11:20 |
| Stskeeps | security is hard, i'll become a farmer | 11:21 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:21 |
| kimmoli | Stskeeps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5JlWDbdCQc | 11:22 |
| r0kk3rz | security is always a compromise | 11:22 |
| Stskeeps | http://www.zotac.com/en/z-zone/zbox-pico.html kinda looks neat | 11:23 |
| Stskeeps | same processor as tablet | 11:24 |
| r0kk3rz | ah cool | 11:25 |
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| Tofe | Stskeeps: as it is intel but not arm, does it mean it would be able to boot sailfish almost as-is? note the "almost", because the video output may be a bit different :) | 11:35 |
| * Stskeeps reads http://uefidk.intel.com/content/tutorial-practical-uefi-secure-boot-part-1-3 | 11:35 | |
| Stskeeps | or, well, watches | 11:36 |
| tbr | meh, a minnowmax is still cheaper and probably close-enough™ | 11:36 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 11:37 |
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| tbr | Stskeeps: btw, I'm not sure if the baytrail-cr has any special provisions, but if someone opens up the case and attaches a dediprog/SPI-flasher, then all bets are off and UEFI is toast. | 11:41 |
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| Tofe | Ah, a question: will you have the same restrictions for the tablet concerning the firmware and driver binaries? i.e., no redistribution possible? | 11:41 |
| Tofe | maybe you don't even know yet which binaries you'll use ;) | 11:42 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: probably yeah | 11:42 |
| Stskeeps | Tofe: i'm working on a way where you can get a flashable image dragged over mtp or whatever | 11:43 |
| Stskeeps | so you can back it up and reflash it yourself | 11:43 |
| Tofe | Stskeeps: ok, that would be great :) | 11:43 |
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| Yaniel | almost read the beginning of the last url as ufckdm8.intel.com | 11:59 |
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| stephg | right that's it | 12:05 |
| * stephg throws icinga2 out of the window, toys out of pram, goes to fix bathroom instead | 12:06 | |
| tbr | stephg: I've been watching it develop, kinda waiting for the new web ui to become available before I make another try | 12:09 |
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| Stskeeps | i count over 20 mobile devices in my cupboard. i have a problem. | 12:22 |
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| Milo- | Stskeeps juggle with them | 12:24 |
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| r0kk3rz | Stskeeps: anything good? | 12:38 |
| Stskeeps | probably | 12:38 |
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| r0kk3rz | because im sure myself and others could use a dev device :P | 12:39 |
| stephg | tbr: there are some very welcome new features under the hood (native graphite, logstash integration for example), it's the config changes coming from 1.x that are the problem | 12:41 |
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| attah | I keep getting the feeling that the browser kills the current tab when i open tab view and kill all others.. | 12:52 |
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| attah | Anyone else had that, or am I just clumsy? | 12:53 |
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| coderus | Help me testing LockscreenPlayerControl patch: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1453218#post1453218 | 13:18 |
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| faiden | alright brb | 15:40 |
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| mornfall | anyone knows how to tell jolla to upload contacts to a carddav account? | 15:53 |
| Nicd- | hmm, the new update seems to kill apps really eagerly | 15:55 |
| Nicd- | I think OOM related but my memory wasn't even near full | 15:55 |
| Nicd- | and had plenty of swap | 15:55 |
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| r0kk3rz | Nicd-: yeah i think the oom needs a bit more tweaking | 15:58 |
| r0kk3rz | certainly better than uitukka | 15:59 |
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| Nicd- | I didn't have any problems with uitukka | 15:59 |
| r0kk3rz | i did | 15:59 |
| tadzik | I did too | 15:59 |
| r0kk3rz | and i dont consider myself a heavy user | 15:59 |
| r0kk3rz | maybe 2-3 apps open most of the time | 16:00 |
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| parasemic | hey | 16:05 |
| parasemic | i cant get the update | 16:05 |
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| tadzik | is it not in the SailfishOS updates? | 16:06 |
| parasemic | hmm? | 16:07 |
| Bawal | is it still withdrawn due to the alphanumeric lock code bug? | 16:07 |
| tadzik | I don't think so | 16:07 |
| parasemic | not as far as i know | 16:07 |
| parasemic | also, i cant seem to update anything via warehouse | 16:07 |
| tadzik | I managed to install it before the bug was discovered, and then I got a 1.5MB hotfix | 16:07 |
| HarhaanJohtaja | first ones and update 9 opt ins get it | 16:07 |
| parasemic | so there seems to be something wrong with my repo updates | 16:07 |
| Tegu | it will be released tomorrow to everyone | 16:07 |
| tadzik | aha | 16:08 |
| tadzik | I'm optin | 16:08 |
| tadzik | poor man's First One | 16:08 |
| Tegu | (or so they said on friday. haven't checked the TJC page since) | 16:08 |
| Tegu | now I did, and no updates after that, it seems | 16:08 |
| parasemic | how did the optin work? didnt do it earlier, can i do it now? | 16:09 |
| Nicd- | you have to send email to an address | 16:09 |
| Nicd- | it'll probably opt-in you to U9 | 16:09 |
| Nicd- | but I would just wait until tomorrow to get U10 :) | 16:09 |
| tadzik | it's sunday, no? | 16:09 |
| tadzik | so probably not worth bothering :) | 16:09 |
| parasemic | aye | 16:09 |
| HarhaanJohtaja | it worked for me yesterday | 16:09 |
| tadzik | otoh, I don't think humans approve those optins anyway | 16:10 |
| tadzik | that'd be weird | 16:10 |
| parasemic | anyway, i cant even update anything via warehouse | 16:10 |
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| parasemic | it finds the updates, tells me to proceed to update and then "list is empty" | 16:10 |
| Bawal | warehouse broke after update 9 i think | 16:10 |
| tadzik | have you tried redownloading warehouse .rpm and installing it? | 16:10 |
| Bawal | for me | 16:10 |
| tadzik | Bawal: works for me | 16:10 |
| mornfall | ah, jolla doesn't like empty calendars (and you have to nuke the account and re-create it to find new ones) | 16:10 |
| parasemic | ill try to reinstall it | 16:11 |
| tadzik | warehouse is a bit buggy | 16:11 |
| tadzik | more often an inconvience rather than breakage, in my case | 16:12 |
| parasemic | btw, was the proximity sensor tweak included in U10? | 16:12 |
| parasemic | that it locks the phone completely | 16:12 |
| tadzik | oh, this double-click-power-to-lock, did anyone get it to work? | 16:12 |
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| tadzik | ah, the Automatic Locking must not be "not in use" | 16:35 |
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| tadzik | https://together.jolla.com/question/72646/double-click-to-lock-doesnt-work-when-automatic-locking-is-not-in-use/ bug reported | 16:37 |
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| r0kk3rz | tadzik: pretty sure I did | 16:41 |
| r0kk3rz | got my lock timer set to 5min, and double tap makes it lock immediately | 16:42 |
| r0kk3rz | just double checked, works fine for me | 16:43 |
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| r0kk3rz | is that a bug though | 16:44 |
| r0kk3rz | i cant make the phone lock at all with the lock timer set to 'not in use' | 16:44 |
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| tadzik | yeah, my point | 16:50 |
| tadzik | also good comment | 16:50 |
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| mornfall | hm, carddav on jolla is such a mess | 16:58 |
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| silver_hook | mornfall: Losing data or just working/not working? | 17:03 |
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| mornfall | silver_hook: not working, and being rather impossible to debug | 17:11 |
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| mornfall | the server responds with a correct list of collections, in reply to <d:propfind xmlns:d="DAV:" xmlns:cs="http://calendarserver.org/ns/" xmlns:c="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:caldav" xmlns:ca="http://apple.com/ns/ical/"><d:prop><d:resourcetype /><d:current-user-principal /><d:displayname /><cs:getctag /><ca:calendar-color /></d:prop></d:propfind> | 17:12 |
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| mornfall | calendar colors are undefined, but other than that, it does list a contacts collection just fine | 17:12 |
| mornfall | jolla goes on to completely ignore it and only sync caldav collections | 17:13 |
| mornfall | no matter what I do | 17:13 |
| silver_hook | mornfall: Meh, that’s crappy. But at least it doesn’t eat your data, right? | 17:13 |
| mornfall | well, that's a relief considering I can't get the data in the first place :( | 17:14 |
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| mornfall | nah, it's just broken *gives up* | 17:18 |
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| silver_hook | It’s something… | 17:20 |
| silver_hook | I guess it’ll get solved in u11. | 17:20 |
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| * silver_hook crosses his fingers | 17:20 | |
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| mornfall | but at least I got some great insight on why people suck it up, buy android and give everything to google | 17:23 |
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| mornfall | also, never ever touch apple calendarserver... ever | 17:31 |
| javispedro | thank the gods there's any sync at all | 17:32 |
| javispedro | i migrated to exchangeactivesync because I figured out there would be better support for it than the *dav protocols | 17:32 |
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| mornfall | javispedro: well, for contacts, there basically is no sync, as far as I can tell | 17:33 |
| mornfall | although it magically works for a handful of people on ownCloud, it seems | 17:33 |
| mornfall | sadly, ownCloud is the software equivalent of swiss cheese | 17:34 |
| javispedro | hey, it's php | 17:34 |
| javispedro | not surprising | 17:34 |
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| mornfall | but my server's surface is too big even without OC (I should start jailing things, soon) | 17:37 |
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| salyavin1 | for the moment owncloud is the best we have "cloud services" on a server we own but I agree it's a mess. More solid contact synching would be great. | 18:02 |
| javispedro | the problem is what you mean by "cloud services" | 18:03 |
| javispedro | cause if you mean contact and calendar synchronization there are plenty of better and more mature programs (even in python!) | 18:04 |
| javispedro | they're basically riding on the "cloud" wave.. | 18:04 |
| javispedro | (owncloud is the one riding on the "cloud" hype, I mean) | 18:05 |
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| tbr | cloud is hype in itself. :-/ | 18:22 |
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| mornfall | javispedro: i'm running radicale for calendar & contacts | 18:25 |
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| mornfall | and vdirsyncer to get the stuff on a desktop | 18:26 |
| javispedro | radicale would be my choice if I were to go back to *dav, a colleague at work is using it succesfully with his android handset | 18:26 |
| mornfall | javispedro: what do you use if not *DAV? | 18:29 |
| javispedro | exchange/activesync | 18:29 |
| mornfall | I'll be first to say that the DAV family sucks horribly, but like with XMPP, it's more or less all we got | 18:29 |
| r0kk3rz | i just dont use any of it, but maybe thats just me | 18:30 |
| mornfall | activesync isn't much better than DAV, I suspect (as a protocol) | 18:30 |
| javispedro | oh, it probably is a devil's spawn as a protocol | 18:30 |
| mornfall | it might have better client-side support on non-Apple devices | 18:30 |
| javispedro | ... like the Jolla. | 18:30 |
| mornfall | yes | 18:31 |
| Tomo2 | ran into a weird glitch today: all application UIs became unresponsive. the ones i had open i could go into, but didn't respond to any input, still music kept playing and i was able do to open all apps but couldn't close any of the already open ones | 18:31 |
| javispedro | awful, but it's what it is. | 18:31 |
| javispedro | Tomo2: could you lock the screen? | 18:32 |
| Tomo2 | yes | 18:32 |
| javispedro | sometimes it helps to get it unstuck | 18:32 |
| Tomo2 | and minimize apps | 18:32 |
| Tomo2 | nothing helped, i would've restarted the UI with patchmanager but it didn't respond :D | 18:32 |
| Tomo2 | ended up booting the thing | 18:33 |
| Tomo2 | never happened before :/ | 18:33 |
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| Stskeeps | sharpneli: what should i check about opencl this time around? | 18:59 |
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| sharpneli | Stskeeps: Does the libOpenCL.so exist under /vendor/ ? | 20:04 |
| Stskeeps | aye | 20:04 |
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| Bysmyyr | a | 21:04 |
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| coderus | Powermenu for SailfishOS Update10 Vaarainjärvi released: https://openrepos.net/content/coderus/powermenu Have known limitations. Read description. | 21:21 |
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| Hartzi | coderus: does it work in landscape mode yet? | 21:28 |
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| FrozenZia | Hey all. Managed to fill my /home/ memory, and now trying to do btrfs balance. Have got to a point where *only* 97% is used (537M free), but now btrfs just results in seg fault. Safe to reboot the device at this point? | 21:38 |
| fennekki | uhh | 21:38 |
| FrozenZia | =o) | 21:38 |
| fennekki | what exactly | 21:38 |
| fennekki | are you doing | 21:38 |
| FrozenZia | I know right? | 21:38 |
| fennekki | no, I mean | 21:38 |
| fennekki | what exactly are you doing | 21:39 |
| fennekki | how'd you fill the filesystem anyway | 21:39 |
| FrozenZia | Well, I was TRYING to dd an MMC partition to a single file in the home directory (should have only been about 2G, and there was plenty of space at that point), but | 21:39 |
| FrozenZia | I've screwed up the command and started dd'ing the entire MMC (8G)... | 21:40 |
| Nicd- | mmmmm | 21:40 |
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| Nicd- | dd, the data destroyer | 21:40 |
| FrozenZia | Had about a 6G file, which I "promptly" rm'd, but alas, it was too late. | 21:40 |
| fennekki | how'd you jump to doing btrfs balance, though | 21:41 |
| mornfall | sadly, the kernel is ancient and the btrfs there too buggy | 21:41 |
| FrozenZia | Googled what to do when filling up Jolla memory, and came across instructions to do that. | 21:42 |
| mornfall | fennekki: he ran out of space, even though there's a 6G hole in the filesystem which btrfs doesn't see yet | 21:42 |
| fennekki | I get that, but, goddammit | 21:42 |
| mornfall | what? | 21:42 |
| FrozenZia | "When 'btrfs fi show' command shows 13.75GB used of 13.75GB for 'devid 1' (see example below), new chunks cannot be allocated anymore and the random problems begin." | 21:42 |
| fennekki | how'd you get it to segfault | 21:43 |
| fennekki | you should just run btrfs balance once | 21:43 |
| fennekki | and then start removing files | 21:43 |
| fennekki | I mean, specifically, the problem with btrfs is that if you run out of space it might be impossible to delete stuff | 21:43 |
| mornfall | fennekki: yes, and it's easy to run out of space and wreck the device that way | 21:43 |
| FrozenZia | I was doing btrfs balance start -dusage=5 / and incrementing the dusage up and up... | 21:44 |
| mornfall | btrfs is probably more usable by now, but we are running a version 2.5 years old | 21:44 |
| fennekki | so you ran btrfs balance *repeatedly*? | 21:45 |
| FrozenZia | yes. | 21:45 |
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| Tegu | sounds like a kinda risky choice for a filesystem | 21:45 |
| FrozenZia | https://together.jolla.com/question/30822/root-and-home-disks-full-and-causing-various-problems/ | 21:45 |
| mornfall | Tegu: it has supposedly nice features | 21:45 |
| mornfall | Tegu: just like systemd :-) | 21:45 |
| Tegu | :P | 21:45 |
| phaeron | I think the solution would be to use quotas | 21:46 |
| mornfall | we are lucky that the phone doesn't really stress the filesystem, on desktop machines the version we run regularly loses entire filesystems without batting an eye | 21:46 |
| FrozenZia | fennekki: ...which seemed to be doing basically nothing until I got to 95% -- it relocated 1 out of 22 chunks. | 21:47 |
| fennekki | FrozenZia: I'm like 85% sure you're not supposed to run btrfs balance all the time | 21:47 |
| fennekki | like, repeatedly | 21:47 |
| fennekki | but | 21:47 |
| fennekki | if the device is still on | 21:47 |
| fennekki | try checking the partition? | 21:47 |
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| mornfall | fennekki: what do you mean checking the partition? | 21:48 |
| FrozenZia | Then I did 100%, it sat there a while and then gave me: "ERROR: error during balancing '/' - No space left on device" | 21:48 |
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| fennekki | mornfall: the command seems to be "scrub" | 21:48 |
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| FrozenZia | fennekki: don't seem to have "scrub" as a command. | 21:49 |
| mornfall | btrfs scrub | 21:49 |
| FrozenZia | ah. | 21:49 |
| mornfall | and pray hard | 21:49 |
| FrozenZia | alas, even btrfs --help just gives me seg fault. | 21:49 |
| fennekki | eh, well | 21:49 |
| FrozenZia | no go w/scrub, either. | 21:49 |
| phaeron | one way to delete files if rm fails is to truncate them | 21:49 |
| fennekki | chances are disk reads just don't work then | 21:49 |
| fennekki | properly, anyway | 21:50 |
| fennekki | don't close your shell under any circumstance | 21:50 |
| salyavin1 | Will factory reset work I wonder | 21:50 |
| phaeron | echo > file | 21:50 |
| FrozenZia | I also tried echo > bigfilename | 21:50 |
| phaeron | didn't work ? | 21:51 |
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| FrozenZia | un momento.... | 21:51 |
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| fennekki | anyway, what I'm wondering is | 21:52 |
| fennekki | WHY were you running several btrfs balances | 21:52 |
| FrozenZia | Hmm. Odd. Didn't think I'd rm'd everything in the /home/nemo directory, but it seems empty enough now... | 21:53 |
| phaeron | fennekki: he was changing the -D parameter | 21:53 |
| mornfall | no, that's just a filesystem malfunctioning | 21:53 |
| phaeron | -dusage | 21:53 |
| fennekki | phaeron: ...regardless, it seems like an exceedingly silly thing to do | 21:54 |
| FrozenZia | fennekki: simply b/c I was following those instructions (somewhat blindly, obviously) -- but it seemed like each "instance" was completing b4 I gave the next one. | 21:54 |
| phaeron | fennekki: it's supposed to free space gradually to allow for bigger relocations | 21:55 |
| FrozenZia | And if one cannot do exceedingly silly things, what's the point of living? | 21:55 |
| mornfall | too bad we don't have full fastboot recovery | 21:55 |
| FrozenZia | It *may* tend to cause one excessive headaches from time to time, obviously. | 21:55 |
| fennekki | well, indeed! I do suppose exceedingly silly things are fine, a lot of the time | 21:55 |
| salyavin1 | You checked the balance progress or you got the prompt back and thought it was done? | 21:56 |
| FrozenZia | salyavin1: got the prompt back, thought it was done. | 21:56 |
| fennekki | I still have no clue why the btrfs binary would suddenly start segfaulting, unless there's been sudden memory (or filesystem) corruption | 21:56 |
| salyavin1 | that's what I thought ^-^;; | 21:56 |
| FrozenZia | Ah, actually, yes and no. | 21:56 |
| fennekki | I mean, if even btrfs --help segfaults | 21:57 |
| FrozenZia | I actually got a "Done, had to relocate....." msg AND the prompty | 21:57 |
| FrozenZia | prompt* | 21:57 |
| fennekki | but if you got anything relocated it's entirely possible you would've had enough space to remove the file already | 21:57 |
| mornfall | fennekki: well, if $HOME is empty and btrfs binary segfaults, the filesystem is probably done for | 21:57 |
| fennekki | mornfall: that's what I *thought*, but it's also possible there's something wacky going on | 21:58 |
| phaeron | if all hope lost you can try the btrfs recovery option in recovery console | 21:58 |
| fennekki | like kernel memory corruption. But I doubt that | 21:58 |
| phaeron | dmesg would tell if an oops has fired | 21:58 |
| phaeron | or even a kernel BUG | 21:58 |
| fennekki | how would jolla even react to a kernel oops | 21:58 |
| mornfall | fennekki: very unlikely if the phone was acting normal before | 21:58 |
| mornfall | fennekki: on OOPS, you'd probably get a hard hang | 21:58 |
| phaeron | btrfs balance status / | 21:58 |
| phaeron | first | 21:59 |
| phaeron | mornfall: not always | 21:59 |
| FrozenZia | very interesting output from dmesg. | 21:59 |
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| FrozenZia | Several screens full of "binary garbage" and then "command not found" | 22:00 |
| fennekki | uhh | 22:00 |
| phaeron | sounds like memory corruption | 22:00 |
| mornfall | yeah, btrfs went full bonkers :-) | 22:00 |
| fennekki | that... doesn't sound like a dmesg | 22:00 |
| fennekki | like, hey, if it's RAM corruption, it's possible the device will still work | 22:00 |
| mornfall | it's kernel-mode and had pointer issues at the time | 22:00 |
| FrozenZia | ...and root seems to also be empty according to ls. | 22:00 |
| fennekki | FrozenZia: it just can't read the filesystem at all, I'm pretty sure | 22:01 |
| mornfall | FrozenZia: reboot time, I guess | 22:01 |
| FrozenZia | sounds about right. | 22:01 |
| FrozenZia | Interesting that df still shows reasonable output... | 22:01 |
| mornfall | I hope your $DEITY has some actual powers. :D | 22:01 |
| FrozenZia | =o) | 22:01 |
| coderus | Hartzi: does homescreen have landscape mode? ;) | 22:02 |
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| FrozenZia | mornfall: fennekki: can you point me to a good set of instructions for how to move forward at this point? Something along the lines of: "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, I've totally borked my Jolla...." | 22:03 |
| Hartzi | coderus: no but why power meny appears also on landscape mode apps? :P | 22:03 |
| mornfall | FrozenZia: reboot, it might recover by itself | 22:03 |
| fennekki | ^ that | 22:04 |
| mornfall | FrozenZia: if no, then try what fastboot has to offer | 22:04 |
| fennekki | it tastes a lot like memory corruption | 22:04 |
| fennekki | which could be solved by a reboot | 22:04 |
| fennekki | but if the filesystem is borked, then, well. | 22:04 |
| fennekki | there's always the strange fastboot factory reset, isn't there | 22:04 |
| fennekki | I used it once, anyway | 22:04 |
| mornfall | fastboot on jolla is kinda messed up, but it *could* work | 22:04 |
| fennekki | er, I meant telnet, not fastboot | 22:05 |
| coderus | Hartzi: you hold phone wrong :D | 22:05 |
| fennekki | I haven't actaually tried fgoing to fastboot on my jolla | 22:05 |
| Hartzi | coderus: :--P | 22:05 |
| mornfall | fennekki: your backspace is broken :D | 22:05 |
| fennekki | mornfall: ? I don't follow | 22:06 |
| mornfall | fennekki: actaually ... fgoing | 22:06 |
| fennekki | oh | 22:06 |
| fennekki | haha | 22:06 |
| fennekki | I honestly didn't see those | 22:06 |
| FrozenZia | fennekki: mornfall: Tx, I'll give it a try. Hyvää Jollua =o) | 22:07 |
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| coderus | Hartzi: why didn't you reported it before? :D | 22:09 |
| Hartzi | well :D | 22:09 |
| Hartzi | that's a good question | 22:09 |
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| Hartzi | but better late than never | 22:10 |
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| Hartzi | I thought that you knew or some one else has reported that the aligment is weird on landscape mode :D | 22:11 |
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| flux | nighsilencer doesn't work in u10 :(, didn't try reinstalling it yet, though | 22:12 |
| flux | I suppose there is no yet profilematic-clone around? | 22:13 |
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| HarhaanJohtaja | phonebot but dont know if it works yet: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93424 | 22:22 |
| FrozenZia | fennekki: mornfall: =o) Alas, given that I'm on 1.0.8.21, my recovery option requires a memory card. Which I *have*, but w/o the adapter to let me copy stuff to it from my laptop. Which was the dilemna that got me here in the first place -- trying to use my Jolla as an MMC reader -- I just got overzealous. Anyway, tx for your help. | 22:26 |
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| coderus | Hartzi: updated to 0.4.1 with new style. Restart lipstick after update to see changes. | 22:42 |
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| Hartzi | coderus: cool, nice job :) | 22:45 |
| Hartzi | looks fine now | 22:45 |
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| coderus | :) | 22:51 |
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