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| Tofe | Anyone having the SFR french operator there? I wonder if I'm the only trying to get mms running on that one | 08:56 |
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| SK_work | hi Tofe | 09:02 |
| SK_work | so you are french ? | 09:02 |
| SK_work | :) | 09:02 |
| SK_work | Tofe: checked http://jollafr.org/parametrez-la-fonction-mms-sur-votre-jolla/ ? | 09:02 |
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| Tofe | SK_work: yepp, didn't you know yet ? :) | 09:15 |
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| SK_work | no | 09:15 |
| SK_work | or I forgot | 09:15 |
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| Tofe | SK_work: no, still 404 when trying to receive an mms; I think I'll send a mail to jolla to describe the issue | 09:16 |
| SK_work | weired | 09:17 |
| Tofe | weeeell, I didn't tell everything, I'm actually at Prixtel, which only uses the SFR network infrastructure | 09:17 |
| Tofe | But they recommend the same config as the one on the webpage you pointed for sfr | 09:18 |
| SK_work | haha | 09:18 |
| SK_work | well | 09:18 |
| SK_work | don't know then ... | 09:18 |
| Tofe | the exact same config works on an iPhone, though it's no surprise (I guess they tested it on two phones, one iPhone, one Samsung....) | 09:19 |
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| SK_work | don't know how to enable logs | 09:20 |
| SK_work | and don't know who knows | 09:20 |
| SK_work | :( | 09:20 |
| Tofe | SK_work: I enabled them already | 09:20 |
| Tofe | mms-engine -vkat | 09:20 |
| Tofe | that's how I get my 404 | 09:21 |
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| SK_work | ha | 09:23 |
| Tofe | So maybe my http://mms1 is wrong, or wrongly handled, not sure. I don't see how to analyze further myself, I'll delefate to Jolla now :) | 09:24 |
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| Waitee | hmm | 09:29 |
| Waitee | does anyone here have experience on pebble smartwatch with jolla? :3 | 09:29 |
| Waitee | wondering if i should get myself one | 09:30 |
| meklu | https://github.com/smokku/pebble | 09:31 |
| * meklu doesn't have one | 09:31 | |
| the_mgt | Waitee: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?s=3038d33986e5a9e1eb2711b8007dcffb&t=93399&highlight=pebble&page=19 | 09:32 |
| the_mgt | Waitee: there is constant progress in app development, as it seems. I am looking forward to unpack my pebble on xmas | 09:32 |
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| Waitee | not sure if i get one for xmas :D | 09:34 |
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| Waitee | pebble support seems very good | 09:35 |
| the_mgt | I am, I already ordered it and it sits in my desk. Still, I'll wait till xmas. :D | 09:35 |
| Waitee | i dont understand how anyone could have that much willpower | 09:35 |
| the_mgt | looks very good, basic functions seem to work at least since this summer, the pebblejs stuff is fairly recent | 09:36 |
| the_mgt | Waitee: I lack enough willpower in other places, so it is a bit of training | 09:36 |
| ggabriel | i did the same as the_mgt with the jolla last year | 09:37 |
| ggabriel | easy to keep busy with other stuff around xmas, but on xmas you're normally limited to a small and finite items to entertain yourself | 09:38 |
| Waitee | well i got my jolla in mail to my parents address as i had my military service | 09:38 |
| Waitee | the packet arrived on tuesday or so and i got home on friday | 09:39 |
| Waitee | most painful 4 days :D | 09:39 |
| the_mgt | ggabriel: that, too. gf paid half of the jolla, so she insisted it stays unpacked till xmas | 09:39 |
| ggabriel | that's a better "incentive" | 09:40 |
| zutto | :P | 09:40 |
| the_mgt | Waitee: but you get to enjoy this childish pre-xmas feeling | 09:40 |
| Waitee | true :D | 09:40 |
| zutto | its always fun :P | 09:41 |
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| Armadillo | Waitee my girldfriend has a Pebble and a Jolla, both works wuite well together and I think she said that recently pebbled was extended with pebblejs support (don't count on my words though ;)) | 10:08 |
| Armadillo | *quite | 10:09 |
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| Wnt | The spare battery arrived today! http://p.egarden.fi/JollaBattery?authkey=Gv1sRgCLWm2_XZjKb5Tw | 10:47 |
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| anYc | Why do people post pictures of a battery? :) | 10:49 |
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| Wnt | because they are so rare :D | 10:51 |
| anYc | I have one, too ;) | 10:51 |
| anYc | I just bought my jolla so I hope the battery while still last for a while | 10:52 |
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| chem|st | Wnt: can I have the old one? | 10:56 |
| Wnt | chem|st: I bought the spare battery to have longer batterylife in the woods | 10:57 |
| * tbr has by now a pile of lithium-ion backed usb chargers. It mostly does the job. | 10:59 | |
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| AL13N_work | how does one get a spare battery? | 11:21 |
| AL13N_work | i didn't see it on the site? | 11:21 |
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| Toxip | there was a very small batch in the store | 11:21 |
| Nicd- | all gone now | 11:22 |
| Wnt | or maybe I should sell this one on ebay! :D | 11:23 |
| AL13N_work | damnit | 11:23 |
| Toxip | I'm not sure if this belongs to here or #sailfishos but I've been wondering if it's possible for a member of open handset alliance to release a sailfishOS device without getting fired by google? | 11:23 |
| dr_gogeta86 | I think is not a problem | 11:24 |
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| tbr | a lot of things regarding OHA are not public or even under NDA | 11:24 |
| dr_gogeta86 | just release with android | 11:24 |
| dr_gogeta86 | and some "unofficialt team " do the stuff | 11:25 |
| dr_gogeta86 | alot of products have official illegal firmwares | 11:25 |
| tbr | dr_gogeta86: you can do that for fringe group experiments | 11:25 |
| Toxip | dr_gogeta86: that's not really a solution | 11:25 |
| tbr | but not for a real product | 11:25 |
| dr_gogeta86 | tbr, trust me | 11:25 |
| Toxip | ^what he said :D | 11:25 |
| tbr | dr_gogeta86: no | 11:25 |
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| Toxip | but what if it ships with android support? does the company get accused of supporting a "non compatible" android fork? | 11:26 |
| dr_gogeta86 | tbr, chinese tables got gapps without permission | 11:26 |
| dr_gogeta86 | so | 11:26 |
| Toxip | that's china | 11:26 |
| tbr | dr_gogeta86: we're not talking about chinese crap | 11:26 |
| tbr | dr_gogeta86: you are misunderstanding the problem | 11:27 |
| Toxip | they can build a whole world of warcraft themepark without getting sued | 11:27 |
| dr_gogeta86 | BTW i can think so | 11:27 |
| dr_gogeta86 | so LG was out | 11:27 |
| dr_gogeta86 | and acer too | 11:27 |
| dr_gogeta86 | I some market sold modified android | 11:28 |
| dr_gogeta86 | without google | 11:28 |
| tbr | BTW: Interesting factoid: it is not possible for a company to both produce and sell google certified and not google certified products. | 11:28 |
| Toxip | what if the android support is downloaded from the jolla store and not directly installed on the device... because that's probably the case anyway | 11:28 |
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| tbr | Toxip: even if we ignore the android runtime for a moment, this still leaves us with the "hardware adaptation", which is largely based on an android build. (cf. HADK & cyanogenmod) | 11:29 |
| Toxip | seems problematic then :/ | 11:30 |
| dr_gogeta86 | tbr, look at oppo coloros | 11:30 |
| dr_gogeta86 | or miui | 11:30 |
| Toxip | that may be a major obstacle for getting partnerships :/ | 11:31 |
| tbr | personally I see the largest chances for Sailfish OS devices in BRIC markets and by B-list brands | 11:31 |
| dr_gogeta86 | i think depend on which kind of relations are you in touch with G | 11:31 |
| Toxip | on a side note, what is "open" in OHA really... | 11:31 |
| tbr | dr_gogeta86: google does not negotiate | 11:31 |
| dr_gogeta86 | if you are sammy or LG | 11:32 |
| dr_gogeta86 | you do | 11:32 |
| tbr | not even then | 11:32 |
| dr_gogeta86 | otherwise no FIREFOXOS on lg | 11:32 |
| dr_gogeta86 | or Sony | 11:32 |
| tbr | c.f. the case where google strongarmed one of the larger ones (was it HTC?) into nixing a whole product line in asia | 11:32 |
| Toxip | like I said | 11:32 |
| AL13N_work | scary stuff | 11:33 |
| Toxip | members of the OHA CAN release products with competing OSs as well | 11:33 |
| Toxip | but not "uncompatible" forks of android | 11:33 |
| AL13N_work | SailfishOS is one of those that are allowed, iinm | 11:34 |
| AL13N_work | cause it's not android | 11:34 |
| Toxip | that's what I think too... but what about android support? | 11:34 |
| dr_gogeta86 | but the HAL | 11:34 |
| tbr | some companies have B-brands just to produce and sell non-certified google hardware like cheap ereaders running android and such | 11:34 |
| dr_gogeta86 | tbr, other make b-Firmwares | 11:34 |
| dr_gogeta86 | like 1+ and Oppo | 11:35 |
| tbr | dr_gogeta86: please... | 11:35 |
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| tbr | Toxip: something that I'd be far more interested in would be an open source replacement for aliendalvik | 11:36 |
| Toxip | +1 | 11:36 |
| tbr | Toxip: because if android-as-an-app suddenly became possible as a third party app, that would be a bit different. | 11:36 |
| tadzik | android is the new java | 11:37 |
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| tbr | well, android is java to a considerable extent ;) | 11:37 |
| dr_gogeta86 | hahaha | 11:37 |
| AL13N_work | heh | 11:37 |
| tadzik | or rather, the new jvm | 11:37 |
| dr_gogeta86 | i was going to write the same thing | 11:37 |
| Toxip | tbr: but right now you download the android runtime from store. doesn't that mean it is an app? | 11:38 |
| dr_gogeta86 | tbr, run chrome in wayland | 11:38 |
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| dr_gogeta86 | and you got an hopefully dalivk run time | 11:38 |
| dr_gogeta86 | but is a dream not a reality | 11:38 |
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| Toxip | I wonder what happens to android support once google decides to make ART mandatory | 11:39 |
| tbr | Toxip: it's provided for and by jolla though | 11:39 |
| tadzik | well, then we'll have alienart | 11:41 |
| Toxip | ART is closed source | 11:41 |
| Toxip | that's the problem | 11:41 |
| tadzik | I wonder what'll become of AOSP then | 11:41 |
| tbr | "oops" | 11:41 |
| tadzik | heh | 11:42 |
| Toxip | it has turned into abandonware already | 11:43 |
| Toxip | google is replacing every open source alternative with closed source app | 11:44 |
| Stskeeps | ART isn't closed source | 11:44 |
| * VDVsx thinks he saw ART sources somewhere already | 11:44 | |
| Stskeeps | as in | 11:44 |
| Stskeeps | the dalvik replacement | 11:44 |
| Toxip | oh really? | 11:44 |
| VDVsx | https://android.googlesource.com/platform/art/ | 11:47 |
| Toxip | great! | 11:48 |
| dr_gogeta86 | i'm feeling like this song | 11:49 |
| dr_gogeta86 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wZNu3v4jh8 | 11:49 |
| dr_gogeta86 | a mess | 11:49 |
| Toxip | maybe it's based on dalvik so they couldn't keep it closed? I don't see why else they would make it open | 11:49 |
| dr_gogeta86 | Toxip, yesterday i bought a gizmo ... it can be used with android 4.4 + last gapps and without a compatible android device is futile like the resistance | 11:50 |
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| dr_gogeta86 | lock-in | 11:51 |
| dr_gogeta86 | is the word | 11:51 |
| Toxip | yes, I know | 11:51 |
| Toxip | http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/ | 11:52 |
| Toxip | more on this topic there | 11:52 |
| dr_gogeta86 | wasn't here jolla channel :-D | 11:52 |
| tadzik | they already secured their monopoly, no need to play open anymore | 11:52 |
| Toxip | tadzik: indeed | 11:52 |
| meklu | here's to hoping it'll be their downfall :P | 11:53 |
| Toxip | +1 :D | 11:53 |
| dr_gogeta86 | Hope ever the best for everyone | 11:53 |
| meklu | nokia had the world in their back pocket, but managed to throw it all away | 11:53 |
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| Toxip | meklu: but without their failures, we wouldn't have this awesome phone and awesome OS :) | 12:04 |
| meklu | I don't know, MeeGo might look a bit more like it now :b | 12:05 |
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| Wnt | so I guess the update 10 is delayed to january? | 12:07 |
| Toxip | perhaps yeah but under it could look a lot different under Nokia governance | 12:07 |
| Toxip | Wnt: now that you asked, yes :D | 12:07 |
| Toxip | stop asking | 12:07 |
| tadzik | Wnt: each question about the update delays it for one day, so I guess now it is | 12:07 |
| j-doge | brb, injecting some more blocker bugs | 12:08 |
| Toxip | btw...that should be mentioned in the topic | 12:08 |
| Wnt | as if they are not releasing it today, they will delay it to nanuary according to this statement: https://together.jolla.com/question/68125/official-announcement-current-status-of-update10 | 12:08 |
| j-doge | maybe we can push u10 to february | 12:08 |
| * pp_ smells an update today :-) | 12:08 | |
| Wnt | it would be an awesome christmas present! :) | 12:09 |
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| ballock | ~/win 19 | 12:21 |
| ballock | sorry | 12:21 |
| tadzik | ~/fail :P | 12:21 |
| j-doge | M-o ;) | 12:21 |
| Scelt | WHAT | 12:21 |
| Scelt | updateupdateupdate | 12:21 |
| Scelt | ? | 12:21 |
| ernesti | wut? | 12:22 |
| tadzik | ...delayed | 12:22 |
| Scelt | damn | 12:22 |
| Wnt | either delayed or coming today! | 12:22 |
| ernesti | j-doge, maybe even march? | 12:22 |
| Toxip | http://tipdoge.info/connect.php please open tipdoge account on twitter so I can donate :D | 12:23 |
| j-doge | ernesti: well, if this discussion just keeps on going... | 12:23 |
| Wnt | :D | 12:23 |
| ernesti | :D | 12:23 |
| Wnt | although technically there are still two days in this week | 12:23 |
| Toxip | http://tipdoge.info/connect.php?q=pending-detail&id=59075 | 12:37 |
| Toxip | there, 1000 doge pending for you Jolla :P | 12:38 |
| tadzik | heh, those 2020 XRP they used to give away for free now account for $33 | 12:39 |
| Toxip | nice | 12:43 |
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| Toxip | I hope that happens to speedcoin :D http://speedcoin.co/ | 12:44 |
| Toxip | I have 17k | 12:44 |
| tadzik | I think I'll just silently sit on them until they become the next bitcoin :P | 12:47 |
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| Toxip | ripple? | 12:49 |
| meklu | I remember when my 12000 doge used to be worth about $24 | 12:49 |
| tadzik | Toxip: XRP, yeah | 12:49 |
| tadzik | second largest apparently, according to http://coinmarketcap.com/ | 12:49 |
| Toxip | ripple seems a bit fishy to me though | 12:49 |
| Toxip | Reddcoin seems interesting too | 12:50 |
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| meklu | catcoin failed rather horribly | 12:59 |
| meklu | hmm, wonder if those x11 coins are worth anything | 12:59 |
| meklu | I guess you'd have to daisy chain a bunch of ASICs to make mining them at all feasible | 13:00 |
| meklu | since apparently the algorithm is somewhat complex and has several parts | 13:00 |
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| Toxip | meklu: it's a mess really... | 13:21 |
| Toxip | PoSV is nice since you don't need massive amounts of computing power to do useless calculations | 13:22 |
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| giucam | i would like a coin which you would mine by calculating stuff for various @home projects, instead of calculating just for the coin's sake | 13:27 |
| Toxip | gridcoin, primecoin... | 13:28 |
| giucam | ah, they exist. thanks :) | 13:28 |
| Waitee | isnt the idea like that the calculations check everything goes as planned and therefore nobody can misuse the system | 13:29 |
| Toxip | not exactly what you're looking for but they don't do just worthless calculations | 13:29 |
| Toxip | well yes and no | 13:29 |
| Toxip | the calculations themselves don't really do much but you do confirm other transactions | 13:30 |
| Waitee | im not an expert but i've understood the calculations mining provides ensure you cant pay twice with the same coin or something | 13:30 |
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| Toxip | yeah but there's stuff like Proof of Stake that achieve the same thing without doing worthless calculations | 13:31 |
| Toxip | I'm not an expert either... this is very complicated stuff | 13:33 |
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| Toxip | the idea with the Proof-of-work algorithms is to ensure that majority of the network confirm the "right" transactions so no organisation can control it | 13:34 |
| pp_ | "care enough but in practice pay nothing" | 13:34 |
| pp_ | would be lovely for some things | 13:35 |
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| Toxip | but with proof-of-stake you hold some coins as stakes and confirm the transactions that way... so basically for someone to control the network they'd have to own more than half of the coins of the whole network. | 13:38 |
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| Toxip | Waitee: did my explanation make sense at all? | 13:39 |
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| Waitee | too long didnt read to be honest | 13:39 |
| Toxip | :D | 13:40 |
| Waitee | ^^ | 13:40 |
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| Stskeeps | ahh, weekend | 13:40 |
| mornfall | Stskeeps: not yet :P | 13:40 |
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| Stskeeps | for me it is weekend when i can sit down with a beer or cider in airport :P | 13:41 |
| mornfall | Toxip: what I don't see is how the proof of stake algorithms work :P | 13:41 |
| mornfall | Stskeeps: that's a bit meh :| | 13:41 |
| Toxip | I'm also very new to this whole proof of stake thing too | 13:41 |
| Toxip | but basically you gain coins just by holding them | 13:41 |
| Toxip | the more you own, the better chances you have in getting coins | 13:42 |
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| Toxip | Waitee: TL;DR both aim to keep the whole thing decentralised | 13:43 |
| Waitee | ahh so a third party holds some of the coins during transaction? | 13:44 |
| Toxip | nope | 13:44 |
| Toxip | you verify other transactions by "staking" your coins | 13:44 |
| Toxip | much like the proof-of-work thing like bitcoin etc | 13:45 |
| Toxip | but instead of doing calculations, you just stake them... | 13:45 |
| Waitee | me no understando | 13:46 |
| Waitee | moar beer | 13:46 |
| Toxip | :D | 13:46 |
| mornfall | Toxip: the WP article makes it a bit clearer | 13:46 |
| Toxip | WP? | 13:46 |
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| mornfall | Toxip: you prove stake by creating a transaction from yourself to yourself, which resets coin age | 13:46 |
| SK_work | Stskeeps: airport again ? | 13:46 |
| mornfall | WP = wikipedia | 13:47 |
| Toxip | yeah... | 13:47 |
| Stskeeps | SK_work: hki, going home | 13:47 |
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| Tofe | Stskeeps: don't forget your korvapuusti on the way home | 13:47 |
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| Toxip | it's really hard to explain a thing this complex in a few words :P | 13:48 |
| Stskeeps | Tofe: my what | 13:48 |
| SK_work | Stskeeps: you are at HKI atm ? | 13:48 |
| Stskeeps | SK_work: been here all week | 13:48 |
| SK_work | thought you were at home | 13:48 |
| Stskeeps | naah. :) | 13:48 |
| Tofe | Stskeeps: cinnamon roll | 13:48 |
| Stskeeps | ah | 13:48 |
| Stskeeps | i can actually make those at home. | 13:48 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:48 |
| Toxip | Stskeeps: where are you from? | 13:49 |
| Stskeeps | denmark, living in poland, working for finnish company | 13:49 |
| Toxip | seems complex :D | 13:50 |
| Stskeeps | tell me about it | 13:50 |
| Toxip | can you speak polish? | 13:50 |
| CissWit | and speaking in english on a server hosted in sweden ! | 13:50 |
| Stskeeps | Toxip: not really. | 13:50 |
| Toxip | Cisswit: :D | 13:50 |
| Toxip | Stskeeps: and Finnish? | 13:51 |
| Stskeeps | no. | 13:51 |
| Toxip | well polish is the hardest language in the world they say... and Finnish comes right behind :P | 13:52 |
| mornfall | Toxip: nonsense | 13:52 |
| Waitee | lol | 13:52 |
| Toxip | :D | 13:52 |
| Stskeeps | isn't it polish-hungarian-finnish? | 13:52 |
| Waitee | you only need to know "kurva" | 13:52 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:52 |
| j-doge | *kurwa | 13:53 |
| mornfall | Waitee: that'd be Czech | 13:53 |
| Waitee | whatever :--D | 13:53 |
| j-doge | or if you want to be a bit more eloquent: siema kurwa | 13:53 |
| Toxip | Stskeeps: possibly so...my point is, both are hard languages :P | 13:53 |
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| Waitee | finnish is rather easy actually | 13:54 |
| Waitee | i've talked it for years | 13:54 |
| Scelt | Waitee: very easy! just say it as you write it | 13:54 |
| SK_work | yeah, just like I'm saying chinese is a piece of cake | 13:55 |
| Waitee | :)) | 13:55 |
| SK_work | sounds legit ... not | 13:55 |
| Toxip | Scelt: that only helps spelling... grammar is hard | 13:55 |
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| Waitee | chinese grammar is just very different compared to any western language | 13:55 |
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| j-doge | Toxip: you don't need grammar, we're in the internet | 13:55 |
| Scelt | Toxip: nah. words can have just a few hundred different endings or so | 13:55 |
| Toxip | chinese is fairly easy in terms of grammar but pronounciation is hard for a western people | 13:56 |
| SK_work | no grammar | 13:56 |
| Toxip | Scelt: j-doge: :D | 13:56 |
| Waitee | :3 | 13:56 |
| SK_work | yeah pronunciation is hard, but that's part of the problem | 13:56 |
| SK_work | writing chinese is not easy, as there is no real matching between sound and what's written | 13:56 |
| SK_work | unlike latin-based languages | 13:56 |
| Tofe | Stskeeps: polish has no relation with finnish, but hungarian and estonian do | 13:57 |
| Toxip | chinese is like putting words after each other and it means something... kinda like caveman language "me eat go" | 13:57 |
| Stskeeps | Toxip: yes, difficulty | 13:57 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:57 |
| Stskeeps | er, tofe | 13:57 |
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| SK_work | Toxip: exactly | 13:58 |
| SK_work | so it's a piece of cake | 13:58 |
| Waitee | despite having related grammar, finnish speaking person doesnt understand hungarian | 13:58 |
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| SK_work | but most european people won't agree with this :) | 13:58 |
| Waitee | estonian and finnish are more alike | 13:58 |
| meklu | it's the vocabulary | 13:58 |
| Toxip | I've been learning Japanese for 10 years and chinese for half-a-year... for me chinese writing seemed a bit easier since there's generally only one or two ways to read a character | 13:58 |
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| Waitee | but there's homonyms which make misunderstandings :D | 13:59 |
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| meklu | and Hungarian has a few more cases than we do | 13:59 |
| meklu | 20+ | 13:59 |
| Toxip | unlike in Japanese there's like 2-10 | 13:59 |
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| Tofe | meklu: above 10, you just stop counting anyway... | 13:59 |
| meklu | compared to the 14 (15 if you count in the accusative) | 13:59 |
| Waitee | like wedding in estonian is pulmad which sounds the same as pulmat (problems) in finnish | 13:59 |
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| meklu | viineri, halpa, etc. | 14:00 |
| meklu | no confusion whatsoever | 14:00 |
| SK_work | Toxip: simplified chinese that is | 14:00 |
| meklu | has ever stemmed from those two words :) | 14:00 |
| SK_work | HK guys won't agree | 14:00 |
| Waitee | yeah shouldnt ask for cheap wine in finnish in estonia | 14:00 |
| Toxip | yes, simplified... | 14:00 |
| Toxip | traditional is a whole different ordeal :D | 14:00 |
| fennekki | meklu: what was halpa again | 14:00 |
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| meklu | halpa = cheap, halb = bad | 14:01 |
| fennekki | oh right halb was bad | 14:01 |
| Toxip | makes sense | 14:01 |
| Toxip | halpahalli "bad hall?" | 14:01 |
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| fennekki | :D | 14:01 |
| Tofe | makes no special sense to me... but it's just me. | 14:01 |
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| meklu | or piimä vs. piim | 14:01 |
| meklu | sour milk vs. milk | 14:02 |
| meklu | not the most horrendous thing though to mix up | 14:02 |
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| Waitee | raamat vs kirja | 14:03 |
| Toxip | meklu: I beg to differ :D I can't stand sour milk | 14:03 |
| Toxip | so in Estonia, every book is a bible? :D | 14:03 |
| Waitee | apparently there's a different word for bible :D | 14:04 |
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| Toxip | imagine walking to a book store asking for "raamattu" and the clerk points to every book in the store :D | 14:04 |
| Waitee | either he has damn many fingers or only 10 books :S ":D" | 14:05 |
| Toxip | :D | 14:05 |
| Toxip | dammit, you had me there | 14:06 |
| Waitee | OR the books are in 1-10 lines and he points them there | 14:06 |
| Waitee | :3 | 14:06 |
| Waitee | okay okay :--D | 14:06 |
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| j-doge | in the soviet era having 1 - 10 books in a bookstore could've been entire possible | 14:07 |
| j-doge | entirely even | 14:07 |
| Toxip | in soviet union, the books point at you... | 14:07 |
| Waitee | :D | 14:07 |
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| the_mgt | has anybody used the MS exchange stuff with a communigate server? | 14:27 |
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| gabriel9 | i could get lumia 930 for free | 16:01 |
| gabriel9 | can i install sailfish os on it :) | 16:01 |
| gabriel9 | if not, i will not get it | 16:01 |
| tbr | how's your JTAG and fine pitch soldering skills? | 16:02 |
| tbr | oh and building a hw adaptation from scratch | 16:02 |
| gabriel9 | i know how to use hammer | 16:02 |
| gabriel9 | :D | 16:02 |
| Waitee | :D | 16:02 |
| Waitee | well you could try | 16:02 |
| tbr | then that's what you should use with it | 16:02 |
| gabriel9 | great | 16:02 |
| Waitee | there's always the possibility that the hammer creates a quantum vacuum which will expand and create a universe with lumia 930 running sailfishos | 16:03 |
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| tadzik | worth a try | 16:04 |
| gabriel9 | sure | 16:04 |
| gabriel9 | but that nokia hardware | 16:04 |
| gabriel9 | i like to touch it more then some girls | 16:04 |
| Yaniel | hehe | 16:05 |
| Yaniel | I recently bought some cheapo micros^Wnokia earphones because my sonys broke | 16:06 |
| Yaniel | in the end it looks like I might stick to these a lot longer than I expected to | 16:07 |
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| gabriel9 | nokia created great hardware | 16:08 |
| gabriel9 | my N9 was the best phone ever | 16:08 |
| gabriel9 | dont get me wrong, i love my jolla. But screen burns are bad | 16:09 |
| AL13N | gabriel9: won't the lumia's have windows arm uefi restricted boot ? | 16:09 |
| gabriel9 | i dont know anything about lumnia | 16:09 |
| Waitee | something like that | 16:09 |
| AL13N | uefi restricted boot for windows 8 was that the key was hardware burned in for all mobile ARM | 16:10 |
| gabriel9 | too bad | 16:10 |
| AL13N | iirc | 16:10 |
| AL13N | not sure if nokia switching to windows rather late would have that though | 16:10 |
| AL13N | gabriel9: there's still a chance | 16:11 |
| AL13N | but tbh, i haven't read anything about anyone unlocking lumia's to do something else | 16:11 |
| gabriel9 | did anyone tried that | 16:11 |
| gabriel9 | yea, that is strange | 16:11 |
| gabriel9 | no one tried anything with lumnia | 16:11 |
| gabriel9 | maybe hardware sailors can share they thoughts | 16:12 |
| Waitee | i believe there hasnt been enough need to tinker with lumia as tinkering with android and jailbreaking ios has been so popular and easy | 16:12 |
| gabriel9 | but the hardware :( | 16:13 |
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| gabriel9 | i can pick nexus 5, but ny friend got lumnia 930 | 16:13 |
| gabriel9 | and it is great build | 16:13 |
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| gabriel9 | it's lumia, lumnia :/ | 16:18 |
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| nadriel | Anyone else have "colour smudges" on screen? | 17:24 |
| nadriel | I get this yellow smudge on a part of screen when using yellow ambience.. | 17:25 |
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| nadriel | To be specific: In browser in landscape mode after the bar hides there's a yellow smudge there.. Seems like problem in display rather than software.. | 17:26 |
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| Waitee | i have like a hundred dead pixels in the right edge of the screen | 19:16 |
| Waitee | or not dead | 19:16 |
| Morpog_PC | a hundred dead pixels should be covered by guarantee | 19:16 |
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| Morpog_PC | warranty | 19:16 |
| Waitee | nope, dropped it on a cement floor | 19:16 |
| Nicd- | I have just one :( no warranty repair | 19:16 |
| Waitee | my own fault im afraid | 19:17 |
| Morpog_PC | ah well, that another case then :D | 19:17 |
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| keithzg | I have to just cross my fingers nothing goes wrong with my Jolla since it'd be hard to call in the warranty this far on the other side of the Atlantic, heh. | 19:32 |
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| pdanek | Carbonfiber Black, Carbonfiber White, Brushed Grey Steel, Brushed Black Steel | 19:48 |
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| pdanek | sorry | 19:48 |
| Waitee | :D | 19:48 |
| Waitee | black black kelo is still my choice | 19:48 |
| pdanek | Are they plastic | 19:48 |
| pdanek | ? | 19:48 |
| pdanek | those above? | 19:49 |
| pdanek | because I also want black black kelo | 19:49 |
| pdanek | but I worry if the plastic imitations of carbon fiber and steel are more durable than wood | 19:49 |
| Waitee | yeah | 19:49 |
| Waitee | made of vinyl | 19:49 |
| pdanek | Is vinyl much more durable than the wooden backplates? | 19:50 |
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| Waitee | well i think the scratches etc make the wooden texture only cooler | 19:50 |
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| pdanek | hm | 19:51 |
| Waitee | as a vinyl plate might look ugly when worn | 19:51 |
| pdanek | ok | 19:51 |
| Waitee | dont know for sure | 19:51 |
| pdanek | black black kelo it is | 19:51 |
| Waitee | that seemed the best choice :3 | 19:52 |
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| knihti | how to change Jolla colorscheme | 20:32 |
| tbr | change ambience | 20:33 |
| knihti | what? | 20:33 |
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| tbr | knihti: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELMztxUHFjc | 20:35 |
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| Stskeeps | tbr: have the minnowboard handy? | 20:55 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: actually right left of my hand ;) | 20:55 |
| Stskeeps | tbr: how easy is it to boot that thing into uefi 'bios' or whatever the thing is called where you can adjust secureboot etc | 20:56 |
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| tbr | Stskeeps: just by not inserting a boot device | 20:56 |
| Stskeeps | hmm, ok | 20:57 |
| Stskeeps | i'm kind of wondering how devices that have uefi bios where you can just go ahead and wipe secureboot keys or whichever, can be resistant to evil maid attack | 20:57 |
| tbr | http://pastebin.com/AYReJhVt | 20:58 |
| Stskeeps | ah, that's efi shell | 20:58 |
| tbr | ah, secure boot, I don't think this even will do that | 20:58 |
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| Stskeeps | i'm learning way too much about that these days | 21:00 |
| tbr | heh | 21:00 |
| tbr | didn't secure boot need a TPM? | 21:01 |
| * tbr tries to remember | 21:01 | |
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| Stskeeps | should have one-ish | 21:01 |
| Stskeeps | http://www.elinux.org/Minnowboard:MaxBios in case you're ever bored, search for "BIOS menu" | 21:02 |
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| pp_ | isn't secureboot more against malware doing stuff vs. evil maids? | 21:12 |
| pp_ | where linux is probably malware as far as MS can see :-) | 21:13 |
| tbr | Stskeeps: I had opened that before you said but didn't see it, will check again | 21:14 |
| tbr | duh, it's in the device manager? | 21:14 |
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| tbr | Stskeeps: got it. it's there | 21:15 |
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| tbr | Stskeeps: http://pastebin.com/Cq46xYsW | 21:15 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 21:15 |
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| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: any progress with the UEFI Fedora boot ? :) | 21:29 |
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| Stskeeps | M4rtinK: no, trying to understand it first.. you can probably do it by setting your own PK and such | 21:31 |
| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: that's seems like a sound strategy :) | 21:32 |
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| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: BTW, Fedora 21 has been released since then, so maybe grab one of the release images once you are so far :) | 21:33 |
| Stskeeps | wrecking my head atm on how on earth you'd prevent a evil maid attack on a tablet where if you're physically at the device, can just disable secure boot or reset it into having your own PK etc | 21:33 |
| Stskeeps | and i don't see any other way than preventing ability to enter the 'bios' with a key on boot | 21:33 |
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| M4rtinK | I guess you can't ? :) | 21:35 |
| M4rtinK | once physical access is gained, you are usually screwed | 21:35 |
| pp_ | grab storage device and steal data | 21:36 |
| pp_ | but can't the os check that it's been booted with secure boot and refuse otherwise | 21:36 |
| pp_ | or use some tpm key to unlock bits | 21:36 |
| M4rtinK | pp_: well you can encrypt it the data | 21:36 |
| M4rtinK | pp_: but the issue someone just installing a custom initrd that sends the encryption key somewhere :) | 21:37 |
| M4rtinK | *the issue is | 21:37 |
| Stskeeps | this is the 'i'm crossing X border where they take my phone somewhere else for a moment' or 'break into hotel room' scenario | 21:38 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:38 |
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| M4rtinK | well if you know about it being out of your control, you can at least assume it is compromised | 21:38 |
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| M4rtinK | problem is if it is being tampered with in your absence and you don't know about it | 21:39 |
| Stskeeps | i'm perfectly fine with allowing to boot into the 'bios' through a ui item or the likes, as then you've somehow authenticated yourself to the device.. | 21:40 |
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| M4rtinK | can you hardcode your own key somehow ? | 21:41 |
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| M4rtinK | then disable adding others | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | key as in keyboard key, or .. | 21:41 |
| M4rtinK | effectively preventing it booting anything not signed by you in secure boot mode | 21:41 |
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| M4rtinK | key of course :) | 21:41 |
| M4rtinK | *public key | 21:41 |
| M4rtinK | so any modified initrd won't boot | 21:42 |
| Stskeeps | yes, but then you can always enter bios and disable secureboot; or add your own PKs.. | 21:42 |
| M4rtinK | any people wanting to tweak will just disable secureboot | 21:42 |
| Stskeeps | which is the 'problem' | 21:42 |
| Stskeeps | i understand it from openness pov fwiw | 21:42 |
| Stskeeps | but people loose devices in bars | 21:42 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:42 |
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| M4rtinK | still, that's fine :) | 21:42 |
| M4rtinK | if you can assume it has been compromised, you can take measures | 21:43 |
| M4rtinK | like checking the bios settings | 21:43 |
| M4rtinK | well UEFI settings :) | 21:43 |
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| Stskeeps | mmm | 21:43 |
| M4rtinK | or making sure it is out of wifi/3G range, then entering the encryption password, dumping data | 21:44 |
| M4rtinK | and wiping the device | 21:44 |
| M4rtinK | & checking the data for surprises | 21:44 |
| M4rtinK | I think it really depends on how much you can/can make them to customize the UEFI firmware | 21:44 |
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| Stskeeps | yeah.. and i don't want to just cop out and disable that kind of functionality by force, either.. | 21:45 |
| Stskeeps | hence the headache | 21:45 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:45 |
| M4rtinK | sudden "WARNING, SUCEREBOOT NOT ENABLED" might make people notice something fishy is going on | 21:45 |
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| Stskeeps | mm | 21:46 |
| M4rtinK | I can image torches and pitchforks if it prevent device hackability :) | 21:46 |
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| gogeta | especially on twitter | 21:47 |
| M4rtinK | people should be able to disable secureboot if they want to | 21:47 |
| keithzg | The Nexus device way is the simple compromise for part of this problem, where you can unlock the bootloader but doing so will wipe all data. Admittedly, yeah, that's a lazy way of deadling with it, because in a perfect scenario one would be able to fully control the device *and* keep it secure, so I really respect you trying, stskeeps :) | 21:47 |
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| Stskeeps | keithzg: oh i agree | 21:47 |
| M4rtinK | or even add their own keys | 21:47 |
| M4rtinK | but that can be optional | 21:47 |
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| M4rtinK | but there is another point of view - are such attacks so likely to actually be an issue ? | 21:50 |
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| M4rtinK | if you leave your Jolla tablet somewhere, it will with 99.9% probability be either stolen forever or returned to you | 21:51 |
| M4rtinK | especially since attacking Sailfish OS would need special tools compared to Android & co | 21:51 |
| M4rtinK | thus even less "return of investment" for the attackers | 21:52 |
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| special | valid logic, but bad logic to rely on | 21:52 |
| keithzg | Security through relative market share? :P | 21:53 |
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| M4rtinK | also at the same time people are installing tons of stuff from OpenRepos (binary upload, no QA, scriptlets running as root... :) ) and both native and native applications can just stream sound from your microphone directly to North Korea if they want to :) | 21:54 |
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| M4rtinK | and even native apps from Harbor can still siphoon all user readable data over the net somewhere over the net | 21:55 |
| M4rtinK | as the uploads are binary and there is no realistic chance of QA spotting such payload before it is activated | 21:56 |
| M4rtinK | not that doing full code review of every app would help either :) | 21:56 |
| special | that situation will improve. | 21:56 |
| M4rtinK | in short, I think there are more pressing security issues to concentrate on :) | 21:57 |
| special | why are they exclusive efforts? | 21:57 |
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| M4rtinK | finite development resources ? | 21:57 |
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| special | I don't like when people think of r&d as "resources". | 21:58 |
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| M4rtinK | there is just so many hours in the day & finite amount of developers | 21:58 |
| special | sure; but taking X developer(s) or developer hours from project A will not give you an equivalent X to project B | 22:00 |
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| M4rtinK | sure, you can just move people between projects at random | 22:01 |
| M4rtinK | and developers have different skill sets | 22:01 |
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| M4rtinK | still, you can waste a lot of resources to protect against a threat the never materializes | 22:03 |
| M4rtinK | and alienate a lot of developers in the process when you are not careful | 22:03 |
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| M4rtinK | perfect example: Harmattans Aegis | 22:04 |
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| M4rtinK | can't really think about any incident where it could help, for sure consumed a big amount of resources & alienated a whole lot of developers | 22:05 |
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| special | physical device security *is* important | 22:06 |
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| M4rtinK | special: sure, but one needs to draw a line somewhere | 22:07 |
| M4rtinK | especially if an unlikely/hypothetical attack might prevent whole classes of legitimate usage | 22:09 |
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| M4rtinK | like for example accessing the boot menu or booting custom operating systems on your device | 22:10 |
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| Stskeeps | i'm discussing this as it's one of the first things you need to get right :P anyhow, we'll have plenty of opportunity for this discussion soon | 22:10 |
| Stskeeps | now it's time to sleep | 22:10 |
| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: it is definitely good to think about important stuff like this early :) | 22:11 |
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| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: considering UEFI menus can have animated blinking-star background (personal experience) | 22:12 |
| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: then I think it should be easy to add password protection to either the whole boot screen or the secureboot disable menu :) | 22:13 |
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| M4rtinK | Stskeeps: but anyway, good night! :) | 22:13 |
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| tbr | M4rtinK: intel makes it fairly easy with their EDK2 stuff. it's about making things carefully and so that you don't screw up. | 22:36 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: well, you can do a lot of crazy stuff with UEFI: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/27881.html :) | 22:37 |
| tbr | M4rtinK: yes, but this is about changing the stuff that runs uefi | 22:38 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: sure, but the environment it runs in should be +- the same | 22:39 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: for the record I acknowledge the potential attacks and agree that proper hardware security is important | 22:40 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: ...as long as it is not preventing the user from using the device the way they want to | 22:41 |
| M4rtinK | tbr: so just slap a password box on the important menu/menu item and hand it to users on a piece of paper an all will be fine :) | 22:41 |
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| M4rtinK | win win :) | 22:42 |
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