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| HylianSavior | does jolla/sailfish have USB OTG support? | 03:02 |
|---|---|---|
| HylianSavior | if I wanted to hack in support for a USB 3G modem, do I have a chance? | 03:03 |
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| AL13N | this msyncd... what does it do? it does take some CPU at times | 06:46 |
| Stskeeps | AL13N: syncs stuff | 06:46 |
| AL13N | like Account sync stuff? | 06:47 |
| Stskeeps | for example | 06:47 |
| AL13N | anything else? | 06:47 |
| AL13N | i have no backup or sync configured and only an XMPP account | 06:48 |
| AL13N | no aliendalvik installed and no mail installed either | 06:48 |
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| CvP | good morning | 06:57 |
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| chriadam | AL13N: also email | 07:18 |
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| chriadam | currently, there's a bug where it will wakeup the device from suspend and see if there are any accounts it can sync with, periodically, even if no accounts exist on device. known bug, planned fix, but no ETA just yet. | 07:19 |
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| CvP | how can i vote in together.jolla? cant fint a button | 07:29 |
| TMavica | the arrow in left | 07:29 |
| TMavica | anyone can grab the other half ambience rpm out..? Cant buy it because I am out of europe..sad | 07:30 |
| CvP | possible that it is not working over jolla phone and standard browser? | 07:31 |
| TMavica | u mean voting? hvnt.try in my jolla | 07:32 |
| CvP | ahh ok, i have to zoom, than its acepted | 07:32 |
| TMavica | gd | 07:32 |
| CvP | thx | 07:33 |
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| Venemo | good morning everyone :) | 08:28 |
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| Venemo | Stskeeps, lbt: what do you think of the answers at https://together.jolla.com/question/27052/roundtable-discussion-jolla-harbour-apis/ ? | 08:29 |
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| stephg | morning Venemo | 08:29 |
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| Venemo | morning stephg :) | 08:32 |
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| stephg | it's Monday! | 08:33 |
| ggabriel | happy monday | 08:34 |
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| slate | hmm, took away SIM from Jolla. Reward was a bootloop. | 08:45 |
| ko__ | congratulations | 08:45 |
| Venemo | I still have half an hour till my first lesson begins | 08:46 |
| ko__ | i'm sitting in my advanced linux network configuration class | 08:47 |
| ko__ | this is interesting | 08:47 |
| Yaniel | <3 | 08:47 |
| Venemo | ko__: and you are studying how to configure an IRC client? | 08:47 |
| tbr | ko__: does it cover ipv6 or just ipv4? | 08:47 |
| ggabriel | man ifconfig? | 08:47 |
| ko__ | no, we had to set up networking on a pc without using ipconfig | 08:47 |
| ggabriel | :) | 08:47 |
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| ko__ | er, if* | 08:47 |
| ko__ | tbr: hopefully both | 08:47 |
| tbr | man ip | 08:47 |
| ko__ | that's pretty much what i did | 08:47 |
| Yaniel | it was quite depressing to "fail" a networking test after toying around with jollas dev mode and linux for a weekend | 08:47 |
| ko__ | ip link set eth0 up, dhclient eth0, done. | 08:48 |
| Yaniel | ko__: so the right way | 08:48 |
| Yaniel | or, more modern way | 08:48 |
| slate | Probably just an unlucky reboot, nothing to do with sim. | 08:48 |
| ggabriel | i only started hotplugging sim cards since the last update | 08:49 |
| ggabriel | so far ,so good | 08:49 |
| pahartik | ko__: "ip link set dev eth0 up" is enough for IPv6 autoconfiguration | 08:49 |
| ko__ | Yaniel: yeah | 08:49 |
| slate | device starts to boot right after inserting the battery | 08:49 |
| Yaniel | been usin that for a wile | 08:49 |
| Yaniel | while* | 08:49 |
| Yaniel | because arch linux | 08:49 |
| slate | without pressing the power-key | 08:49 |
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| ko__ | pahartik: i know, but we don't have ipv6 internet connectivity | 08:49 |
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| pahartik | ko__: Damn that | 08:50 |
| Acce | Yaniel: Arch keeps us on the bleeding edge | 08:50 |
| Yaniel | yep | 08:50 |
| Acce | Debian people are crazy with the systemd stuff now | 08:50 |
| Acce | and we're like "hmm? it's been there forever" | 08:51 |
| Yaniel | at least canonical is backing that | 08:51 |
| ko__ | pahartik: not even my home isp does, but 6to4 works | 08:51 |
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| Acce | yeah, don't know how good the Upstart of canonical would have been then | 08:52 |
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| Yaniel | so we don't get another drama like with wayland/mir | 08:52 |
| Yaniel | althought the possibility for them jumping ship still exists | 08:52 |
| Acce | canonical is going for wayland now? | 08:52 |
| Acce | ditching mir? | 08:52 |
| Tofe | Acce: yes, seems so | 08:53 |
| Tofe | a wait no | 08:53 |
| Tofe | it's systemd they're going for | 08:53 |
| * Tofe needs coffee. | 08:53 | |
| Yaniel | no | 08:53 |
| Stskeeps | it's a simple economic reason, guys | 08:54 |
| Yaniel | but systemd vs upstart could have become a similar drama | 08:54 |
| Yaniel | yeah | 08:54 |
| AL13N_work | pahartik: ko__: Yaniel: the way i see it, connman is not handling ipv6 well... | 08:54 |
| ko__ | they don't want to be having to diddle in upstart everywhere when they can just use upstream | 08:54 |
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| Stskeeps | canonical doesn't want to maintain 50000+ packages for their variant with a different system control | 08:54 |
| Yaniel | it is not necessarily a good idea to start using something different than practically everyone else | 08:54 |
| AL13N_work | Stskeeps++ | 08:54 |
| AL13N_work | it's a business | 08:54 |
| Yaniel | especially when your upstream is switching | 08:55 |
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| pp | then again, if debian is having democracy at work for two years and you're stuck in 2001, you eventually just have to jump :-) | 08:55 |
| Stskeeps | the mir discussion still baffles me because it only made economic sense if you could lock down other people's access to things and having to use your technology | 08:55 |
| Stskeeps | ie like nvidia going wholesale to mir kind of thing | 08:55 |
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| Stskeeps | but even so, the tide is turning towards embedded and well, they don't have a monopoly on screwing around with android GPU drivers to do wayland or mir | 08:56 |
| tbr | nvidia being on its way down the drain being a bad example though | 08:56 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 08:56 |
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| pahartik | AL13N_work: At least "connmand" seems to stay out of way while "Jolla Mobile" device is routing IPv6 between mobile network tunnel and Bluetooth PAN | 08:57 |
| Stskeeps | not saying that wayland on android drivers haven't had it's share of problems.. | 08:57 |
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| slate | I can get to fastboot, but not recovery. On the bootlooped Jolla. | 12:42 |
| slate | ARgh. | 12:42 |
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| stephg | why not recovery? | 12:48 |
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| Stskeeps | slate: are you in a low battery situation? | 12:48 |
| slate | nope | 12:49 |
| slate | had 90% when it happened | 12:49 |
| Stskeeps | ok, take out usb cable from pc and device, pull battery | 12:49 |
| slate | It was out for 10mins.. | 12:50 |
| slate | It helped to the problem, where device started to boot when battery was inserted. | 12:50 |
| slate | Now I can start it from the powerbutton. But It does not load recovery. | 12:50 |
| Stskeeps | plug battery back in, and press volume down and power on the device | 12:50 |
| Stskeeps | AFTER that, plug in usb cable | 12:51 |
| slate | Done.. | 12:51 |
| Stskeeps | linux or windows pc? | 12:51 |
| slate | os x | 12:51 |
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| slate | when device is in recovery, should it display the Jolla logo or something else? | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | jolla logo | 12:52 |
| slate | Okey, so maybe its loaded afterall. | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | os x - you need HoRNDIS | 12:53 |
| Stskeeps | or how is it | 12:53 |
| Yaniel | yeah | 12:53 |
| slate | okey, will search | 12:53 |
| Yaniel | pretty easy to find | 12:54 |
| slate | found. | 12:54 |
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| Yaniel | might need a reboot after installing | 12:54 |
| slate | installing.. | 12:55 |
| Yaniel | and you'll probably get a warning about an unsigned kext | 12:56 |
| slate | okey, seems to get connected | 12:57 |
| slate | yes, telnet works. | 12:57 |
| slate | thanks for the tip with horndis. | 12:58 |
| slate | btrfs recovery helped, cheers. | 13:00 |
| slate | Now to figure out what was the cause.. | 13:00 |
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| slate | Could simply pulling out the battery at the wrong moment cause this? | 13:04 |
| Stskeeps | yes | 13:05 |
| Stskeeps | power loss is never cool on a mobile device | 13:05 |
| slate | kinda nasty.. | 13:05 |
| Stskeeps | which is why device shuts down early etc | 13:05 |
| ggabriel | s/on a mobile device// | 13:05 |
| slate | Never had this happen on other platforms really. | 13:05 |
| slate | More failsafe? | 13:06 |
| Stskeeps | i've seen it happen in nasty ways on other devices | 13:06 |
| ggabriel | it's worth mentioning that this happens only when you can remov ethe battery | 13:06 |
| slate | which os's? | 13:06 |
| slate | Sucks if/when you drop your device and the sw-side dies.. :P | 13:07 |
| Stskeeps | agreed, which is why we've made it a bit more automagical in next updates | 13:07 |
| slate | automatically try to fix btfrs if device fails to boot? | 13:09 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 13:09 |
| clau | that's nice | 13:09 |
| slate | indeed. | 13:09 |
| slate | Does other os's do that also? | 13:09 |
| Stskeeps | i'll let you ponder a bit that btrfs-fsck is a #!/bin/sh exit 0 | 13:09 |
| Stskeeps | (i think) | 13:09 |
| zutto | erm | 13:10 |
| zutto | you guys should stay away from brtfs for atleast another year | 13:10 |
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| Stskeeps | zutto: tooo late | 13:10 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:10 |
| Stskeeps | all jolla devices are btrfs | 13:10 |
| zutto | seriously? | 13:10 |
| slate | are there others? | 13:10 |
| slate | ;) | 13:10 |
| Stskeeps | seriously | 13:10 |
| ggabriel | and no way back | 13:10 |
| zutto | oh god | 13:11 |
| ggabriel | also, way too many people use it | 13:11 |
| Stskeeps | zutto: and it really works quite nicely for the most part | 13:11 |
| zutto | well, using brtfs will create a jobs to phone repair companies | 13:11 |
| ggabriel | it's just not hardened enough for the enterprise imho | 13:11 |
| Stskeeps | zutto: it's called industry support | 13:11 |
| zutto | Stskeeps: but everything can go horribly wrong way too easily | 13:11 |
| Stskeeps | (.. that was me being sarcastic) | 13:11 |
| Stskeeps | zutto: so far we've only really have one problem | 13:11 |
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| zutto | if the phone crashes, your chances of booting it back up is close to zero | 13:12 |
| zutto | ;l | 13:12 |
| ggabriel | same with <any other fs> | 13:12 |
| ggabriel | that's not a btrfs issue | 13:12 |
| Stskeeps | in practice we use it for factory resets and a lot of other things | 13:12 |
| zutto | actually it is | 13:12 |
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| ggabriel | zutto: i had ext4, ffs, hpfs+, ntfs doing the same thing | 13:13 |
| ggabriel | so it isn't | 13:13 |
| zutto | that can happen, sure | 13:13 |
| ggabriel | just don't remove the battery wit hthe battery on | 13:13 |
| ggabriel | it's really easy | 13:13 |
| sharpneli | But one has to agree that btrfs is not exactly the most stable one | 13:13 |
| ggabriel | erm, phone on* | 13:13 |
| zutto | brtfs is still in way too early testing stage | 13:13 |
| zutto | it corrupts everything too easily | 13:14 |
| ggabriel | that's what the kernel note says | 13:14 |
| ggabriel | BUT many people use it | 13:14 |
| zmo | hei! | 13:14 |
| zutto | meanwhile ext4, ntfs, other filesystems might be able to recover just fine | 13:14 |
| ggabriel | go to gentoo.org | 13:14 |
| zmo | my jolla is on its way \o/ | 13:14 |
| zmo | :-D | 13:14 |
| virtuald | there's a kernel note? | 13:14 |
| pp | hey, it's not that bad: | 13:14 |
| zutto | ggabriel: no one uses it in critical environments | 13:14 |
| pp | btrfsck is used to check and optionally repair of a Btrfs filesystem. Now, it can only be | 13:14 |
| virtuald | what's that? | 13:14 |
| pp | run on an unmounted FS. Considering it is not well-tested in real-life situations yet. if | 13:14 |
| pp | you have a broken Btrfs filesystem, btrfsck may not repair but cause aditional damages. | 13:14 |
| zutto | even tho novell is trying to push it to that, and redhat | 13:14 |
| ggabriel | zutto: that was my point | 13:14 |
| ggabriel | phone != critical | 13:14 |
| zutto | phone is quite critical | 13:14 |
| virtuald | phone = consumer crap ;) | 13:15 |
| pp | then again, if it was exit 0 it wouldn't cause aditional (sic) damages :-) | 13:15 |
| zutto | what if you were just attacked by bear and lost your legs, you open up your phone and start typing 112 to call.. and your phone application crashes the whole phone | 13:15 |
| zutto | and you cant boot your phone cause brtfs broke it! | 13:15 |
| zutto | and then you die | 13:15 |
| zutto | without your legs | 13:15 |
| ggabriel | zutto: you'd die before getting help | 13:15 |
| zutto | well, probably | 13:16 |
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| ggabriel | because you'd severe critical arteries | 13:16 |
| zutto | but atleast they would be able to find your body! | 13:16 |
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| ggabriel | right | 13:16 |
| ggabriel | ok, get an iphone for bear hunting :) | 13:16 |
| ggabriel | that one doesn't fail. ever. | 13:16 |
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| zutto | lol | 13:16 |
| zutto | paperweights for hunting | 13:16 |
| zutto | no | 13:16 |
| zmo | zutto - well, for critical applications, a good old nokia 6110 from the 90s is still the best ;-) | 13:16 |
| slate | take out your laptop, telnet to jolla and fix your FS. | 13:16 |
| zutto | zmo: yep | 13:16 |
| zmo | zutto - and with that you can defend yourself against bears | 13:17 |
| slate | then the bear eats you. | 13:17 |
| ggabriel | on a serious note | 13:17 |
| zutto | zmo: that is true too | 13:17 |
| ggabriel | what is considered more reliable at critical times are pagers | 13:17 |
| ggabriel | that's why nuke engineers, real critical doctors still have them | 13:17 |
| zutto | literally no one uses pagers in finland anymore | 13:17 |
| ggabriel | there aren't so many mobile antennas for that yet | 13:17 |
| zutto | not since early 90's | 13:17 |
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| zmo | though the 2110 was even better, as it had the antenna which you could use as a whip! :-) | 13:17 |
| slate | Pagers in .fi , not that common, never. | 13:17 |
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| ggabriel | zutto: that's what i thought worldwide, until i was corrected | 13:17 |
| ggabriel | i never said they were common | 13:18 |
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| ggabriel | i said they were reliable for critical things | 13:18 |
| zutto | slate: depends on the job, they are used | 13:18 |
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| ggabriel | critical as in a power plant is about to explode | 13:18 |
| zutto | were* | 13:18 |
| ggabriel | not as in the webiste is down | 13:18 |
| slate | zutto: doctors have mobiles.. | 13:18 |
| zutto | i'm not talking about doctors here | 13:18 |
| slate | Okey, some one was. | 13:18 |
| zutto | but for example, in early 90's, telecommunications people used pagers alot | 13:19 |
| zutto | it was easier than carrying those bricks back then | 13:19 |
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| zmo | zutto - my father used to have a 8W phone in the late 80s/early 90s | 13:19 |
| zutto | same | 13:19 |
| ggabriel | Stskeeps: btw, saw your talk yesterday, was quite good, congrats | 13:19 |
| Stskeeps | thanks | 13:20 |
| zmo | pretty impressive shit | 13:20 |
| zutto | yep | 13:20 |
| zmo | it was like carrying 7 modern laptops in a bag :-) | 13:20 |
| zutto | my father worked fos hpy/elisa/nsn for almost 35 years | 13:20 |
| zutto | we have quite nice collection of old phones | 13:20 |
| zmo | but with that you could defend yourself against a bear :-D | 13:21 |
| zutto | most of the old phones could be used to kill humans :P | 13:21 |
| zmo | eat that 8kg battery, you bear! | 13:21 |
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| zmo | damn, can't wait to get my hands on the jolla | 13:24 |
| zmo | it feels like waiting for fedex-santa :-s | 13:24 |
| ggabriel | zmo: congrats :) | 13:25 |
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| zmo | btw, I was wondering whether the boot process of the jolla has been thought out to avoid draining the battery unusefully, like on many android phones... i.e. when the battery is empty, doing a full boot until discovering the battery is dead and die again. | 13:27 |
| Stskeeps | zmo: yeah it has | 13:27 |
| zmo | sweet | 13:28 |
| Stskeeps | we turn off before that but some of the older versions wasn't so good at it | 13:28 |
| zmo | and there's even one thing I missed from the older nokia, it's to have the alarm still working even when the battery was below critical | 13:28 |
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| ln- | btw, do you have statistics, an estimate, or a guess about how many per cent of buyers have never upgraded from the software version that the phone was shipped with? | 13:32 |
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| Stskeeps | ln-: we have very good upgraders - but i'm a little unsure how the picture looks after the 'continually spam versions' | 13:33 |
| Stskeeps | bug | 13:33 |
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| clau | btw, I keep on getting update notifications for one app from store :( | 13:44 |
| clau | The Advanced Online Translator | 13:44 |
| clau | I have used it from openrepos before it was in Store, but now that particular repo is disabled. | 13:45 |
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| HarhaanJohtaja | i think the update has same version number than the previous or something | 13:57 |
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| * zmo is http://xkcd.com/281/ | 14:00 | |
| * kimmoli hopes Jolla letter with keira and aloe waiting at home... have to work late today. | 14:00 | |
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| Venemo_j | 5 hours of 3G + IRC = ~30% battery drain | 14:15 |
| Venemo_j | Stskeeps: what's up with the bug when it finds the same update multiple times? | 14:16 |
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| gena2x_ | anyone has an issues with mitakuuluu? mine now shows 3 icons in main screen and can't receive any messages till i manually reconnect | 14:20 |
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| clau | gena2x_: what version do you have? | 14:21 |
| gena2x_ | clau, latest | 14:21 |
| Venemo_j | gena2x_: where did you download it? | 14:21 |
| clau | what do you mean by 3 icons? | 14:21 |
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| gena2x_ | download via warehouse, version 0.1-30 | 14:22 |
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| gena2x_ | 3 icons mean that on lock screen i see 3 green icons with phone. | 14:23 |
| clau | you probably have it configured to notify about connection changes | 14:23 |
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| gena2x_ | yes | 14:24 |
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| clau | go to events screen, that should clear it for you. | 14:24 |
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| gena2x_ | clau, yes, didn't realize it, thank you | 14:25 |
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| clau | sure, yw. | 14:25 |
| gena2x_ | clau, yesterday i checked settings to find out why messages are not delivered from my girlfriend (she is very upset) and probably touch this in settings | 14:26 |
| gena2x_ | ok, this 3 icons are clear | 14:26 |
| clau | ah... girlfriends :) | 14:26 |
| gena2x_ | what about not delivered messages? | 14:26 |
| clau | what does mitakuuluu say about that? depending on what conversation theme you use, you will get some sort of notification about the status of the sent message. | 14:28 |
| clau | ie, color of the bar beside the msg changed to green for oldschool | 14:28 |
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| gena2x_ | i have problem with incoming messages | 14:28 |
| clau | I see. that might be because the device is in deepsleep. | 14:29 |
| gena2x_ | 3 times - i know that the other side have send it, but i only see them if i disconnect/connect again | 14:29 |
| clau | ping Stskeeps about deepsleep :D | 14:29 |
| gena2x_ | Stskeeps, what's wrong with deepsleep? | 14:30 |
| clau | Stskeeps: what about an official setting for disabling it? | 14:30 |
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| gena2x_ | clau, can you tell in short what's wrong with deepsleep or send some link to more information? | 14:31 |
| clau | one moment | 14:32 |
| stephg | yey my other halves arrived | 14:32 |
| gena2x_ | i know in general what is sleep modes of the ARM processor etc. | 14:32 |
| clau | this should be it: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=92183 | 14:33 |
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| clau | just be sure you understand it before using it. | 14:34 |
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| clau | stephg: congrats :) | 14:35 |
| sharpneli | And please don't complain about atrocious battery life if you keep it on constantly. | 14:35 |
| sharpneli | There is a good reason why N900 battery lasted for a day and this one lasts for 2-4 days. | 14:35 |
| clau | 2-4 days of missed emails etc | 14:35 |
| clau | currently the phone is unusable to me without it :( | 14:36 |
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| gena2x_ | strange. until last two days, everything were fine. | 14:37 |
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| gena2x_ | still reading, may be i missed something... | 14:37 |
| pp | I'm now pretty happy with battery life, just waiting for the fix for the "powers off without reason", which apparently will be in the next version :-) | 14:38 |
| clau | I get 30-50% left in the evening, with suspend policy early. still better than n9. | 14:40 |
| kehnoo | I get range anxiety with that percenteage number and charge when it drops below 90%, would prefer battery bars :p | 14:43 |
| clau | hahaha | 14:44 |
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| AL13N_work | pp: i didn't have that anymore after i removed the battery for > 10sec | 14:48 |
| AL13N_work | but then i only had it twice | 14:48 |
| pp | yea, I still have it (but more rarely) | 14:48 |
| AL13N_work | i had it twice after update to 1.0.3.8 and then i removed battery and now i don't have it anymore | 14:49 |
| AL13N_work | (i didn't have it before either) | 14:49 |
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| clau | I had a few shutdowns with 1.0.2.5, but then it fixed itself. I have no idea how or why. | 14:52 |
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| Nicd- | I still have 2 days 16 hours uptime record :/ | 14:53 |
| gena2x_ | heh, i got answer from coderus =) | 14:54 |
| Yaniel | huh, 784/812MiB memory in use | 14:54 |
| gena2x_ | https://github.com/CODeRUS/mitakuuluu/issues/165 | 14:54 |
| Yaniel | according to sailtime | 14:54 |
| Yaniel | or is this just linux keeping memory "reserved" | 14:54 |
| gena2x_ | seems my issues due to some whatsapp problem =) | 14:54 |
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| clau | gena2x_: good news then :) | 14:56 |
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| Nicd- | Yaniel: it includes all caches | 14:57 |
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| Nicd- | unused memory is wasted memory | 14:57 |
| sharpneli | It's just reporting issue. Linux reports file cache as being used and windows does not. Even though both use RAM in similar way | 14:58 |
| Nicd- | I already received an issue report about this :P | 14:58 |
| sharpneli | Though tbh I'd wish Linux would report it Windows style because a meter that always show all ram as being used is kinda useless | 14:58 |
| Nicd- | but I won't fix it lest SailTime gets featuritis | 14:58 |
| gena2x_ | it's possible to partially turn off DRAM modules. so it's theoretically possible to save power by not using all your ram =) | 14:58 |
| sharpneli | Whereas people are interested if they can run more programs. | 14:59 |
| sharpneli | gena2x_: That would actually be quite cool feature. Kernel moving all pages associated with programs away from the chip being powered down | 15:00 |
| kimmoli | Anyone doing OBD support for Jolla? | 15:02 |
| kimmoli | bluetooth, elm? port of OBDAutoDoctor ? | 15:03 |
| rangoy | i suspect that the power saving potential in turning of ram modules is far less than the cpu power neeed to move pages in/out of chips | 15:03 |
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| sharpneli | rangoy: Most of the time a phone is in your pocket hanging around and doing nothing. So do it only if the screen lock has been on for certain time | 15:05 |
| sharpneli | And most importantly prioritize paging on the non to be powered down chip and use the other chips as normal file cache. | 15:05 |
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| gena2x_ | well, crazy idea =) but there is a lot of possible fun with power saving. | 15:09 |
| rangoy | sharpneli: do you have any data on how much power is consumed by RAM? | 15:10 |
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| narchie | why is linux using all my memory!!!!!!!! | 15:10 |
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| sharpneli | rangoy: Googling told that it's bit less than 100mW | 15:10 |
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| narchie | lol | 15:10 |
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| sharpneli | rangoy: And naturally some harcore ram that lowered the refresh rate so it could be dropped to 37mW for mobile applications | 15:10 |
| sharpneli | 100mW is low when compared to CPU where one core can draw 200-500mW. But unlike CPU that goes to sleep the RAM ticks all the time. | 15:11 |
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| AL13N_work | 100mW ? but isn't the battery only 2100mAh? | 15:13 |
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| AL13N_work | that would mean that mem only would drain battery in 60hours | 15:13 |
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| AL13N_work | i don't buy that | 15:13 |
| ggabriel | don't you need voltage to figure that out? | 15:14 |
| AL13N_work | it's not gonna be higher than 3.3V for ram, is it? | 15:14 |
| ggabriel | it's going to be way lower | 15:14 |
| AL13N_work | exactly | 15:14 |
| AL13N_work | which means that it would drain even faster | 15:14 |
| ggabriel | ? | 15:14 |
| ggabriel | well, i dunno | 15:15 |
| ggabriel | i don't think so | 15:15 |
| ggabriel | but can't remember the physics, so i'll shut up | 15:15 |
| Pnuu | battery is 7.7 Wh | 15:15 |
| gena2x_ | mem and cpu percentage highly depend on type of load | 15:15 |
| AL13N_work | so in 77h, mem alone drains battery? | 15:15 |
| AL13N_work | no way | 15:15 |
| sharpneli | AL13N_work: Who knows. It might be that Jolla already has the lower refresh rate ram | 15:16 |
| sharpneli | And that one consumed 37mW | 15:16 |
| Pnuu | kind of stupid that capacities are presented in mAh as Wh would be a much better unit :-P | 15:16 |
| gena2x_ | for openmoko for example there were article: https://www.ssrg.nicta.com.au/publications/papers/Carroll_Heiser_10.pdf | 15:16 |
| sharpneli | Ah. It was 37mW for 4GB system :D | 15:16 |
| AL13N_work | standby time of 500h means that ram (being active) will need to be max 15.4mW | 15:16 |
| AL13N_work | at max | 15:17 |
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| AL13N_work | but cpu also has a bit more and stuff, so Ram should be more around 10mW | 15:17 |
| sharpneli | So yeah it's 10mW for 1GB for that | 15:17 |
| gena2x_ | ram in self-refresh mode will eat <1mW | 15:17 |
| AL13N_work | oic | 15:17 |
| AL13N_work | that's nice | 15:17 |
| gena2x_ | ram in self-refresh mode will eat <1mA | 15:17 |
| gena2x_ | sorry | 15:17 |
| AL13N_work | ah | 15:17 |
| AL13N_work | still ok | 15:17 |
| gena2x_ | this is just guess of course, from other kind of memory | 15:18 |
| gena2x_ | i don't know the Jolla hardware | 15:18 |
| sharpneli | gena2x_: My number was from DDR3 | 15:18 |
| Pnuu | sorry, 7.98 Wh, remembered the voltage incorrectly | 15:19 |
| gena2x_ | mine for embedded ram on openmoko - there were 256 MiB | 15:19 |
| sharpneli | Jolla has LPDDR2 | 15:19 |
| sharpneli | It seems to consume way less than the DDR3-SR | 15:20 |
| sharpneli | And not suprisingly desktop ram consumes like tens of watts :E | 15:20 |
| gena2x_ | will be interesting to see docs about the soc installed into jolla... | 15:20 |
| AL13N_work | Pnuu: it's still more accurate to count in mAh, voltage can change a bit | 15:21 |
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| Pnuu | I'd calculate in watts :-) | 15:22 |
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| AL13N_work | in any case, this was rough math and physics in order to prove that no way was ram using 100mW statically | 15:23 |
| sharpneli | And ap | 15:23 |
| sharpneli | *yap | 15:23 |
| Pnuu | those little chips would be quite hot with that kind of power consumption.. | 15:24 |
| sharpneli | http://www.samsung.com/us/business/oem-solutions/pdfs/app_note_lpddr2_power_calculation.pdf | 15:24 |
| AL13N_work | sharpneli: still, i was able to drain battery at one point so hard that even while it was charging over USB, the percentage was dropping about 10% / 2hours | 15:24 |
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| sharpneli | AL13N_work: Sure. Heck many tablets do that if you play something. | 15:24 |
| sharpneli | After all USB charging is only 9 Watts | 15:25 |
| sharpneli | And if it's not on a dedicated charger but on a computer it's measly 2.5 Watts | 15:26 |
| AL13N_work | 9W in or out? | 15:26 |
| AL13N_work | i mean effective charge or draining from power socket? | 15:27 |
| sharpneli | USB charger standard specifies 1.8A as the maximum current | 15:27 |
| sharpneli | But as an example the closest charger I have has 1A as the max current | 15:28 |
| AL13N_work | but if Pnuu insists the battery is 7.9W and you're charging 9W/h ... you'd need less than an hour to charge battery completely... that sounds not quite correct | 15:28 |
| AL13N_work | *7.98W | 15:28 |
| Pnuu | that 7.98 Wh is printed on the battery :-) | 15:29 |
| SpeedEvil | The maximum charge rate is about 5W | 15:29 |
| sharpneli | The theoretical current output of the charger is way different than the maximum charging speed of the battery | 15:29 |
| AL13N_work | exactly | 15:29 |
| sharpneli | But a device that is not only charging can easily draw the 9 Watts if it supports it | 15:29 |
| sharpneli | Even if spec says that the max current is 1.8A nothing mandates devices to draw that much or to supply that much. | 15:30 |
| AL13N_work | though you'll heat your device if you do | 15:30 |
| sharpneli | And that they will do. | 15:30 |
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| AL13N_work | i suspect there's a limiter in the components | 15:30 |
| sharpneli | heck most modern mobile socs are actually heat limited | 15:30 |
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| kimmoli | USB charger (PM9821) limits current internally, based on USB connection type. DCP might give max charge current. some pc ports only 500mA. | 15:31 |
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| phdeswer | kimmoli____: USB pc ports are limited to max 500mA (some rare charging ports excepted) | 15:33 |
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| chem|st | so killing aliendalvik kills the device when an app is open... green flashing led... | 15:34 |
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| chem|st | after reboot aliendalvik sees no connection | 15:35 |
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| chem|st | killing it this time does not bring it back | 15:36 |
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| HylianSavior | jolla is out for delivery! | 15:50 |
| HylianSavior | :D | 15:50 |
| ggabriel | \o/ | 15:51 |
| HylianSavior | all the way from finland to us | 15:51 |
| ggabriel | is jolla selling to the US already? | 15:51 |
| HylianSavior | no | 15:51 |
| HylianSavior | i had a friend in finland preorder | 15:52 |
| ggabriel | ah, ok ok | 15:52 |
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| HylianSavior | what language are sailfish apps in? | 15:57 |
| Stskeeps | finnish? | 15:57 |
| * Stskeeps waits for HylianSavior to panic | 15:57 | |
| HylianSavior | i meant programmed in :P | 15:57 |
| ggabriel | obj c :P | 15:57 |
| HylianSavior | thanks | 15:58 |
| ggabriel | HylianSavior: qt5, c++ basically | 15:58 |
| ballock | rest are in logo | 15:58 |
| HylianSavior | oh | 15:58 |
| HylianSavior | qt | 15:58 |
| HylianSavior | neat | 15:58 |
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| HylianSavior | might give it a go sometime then | 15:58 |
| ggabriel | comes w/ python too | 15:58 |
| Tegu | not readily installed at least | 15:59 |
| Tegu | (python) | 15:59 |
| ggabriel | oh really? | 16:00 |
| ggabriel | forgot i installed it then :P | 16:00 |
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| kimmoli____ | programmed in finnish :) mene kauppaan. vie roskat. i know those opcodes... | 16:06 |
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| Pnuu | sudo tee voileipä | 16:06 |
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| clau | http://bash.org/?400459 | 16:07 |
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| ggabriel | rotfl | 16:07 |
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| HylianSavior | this one's my favorite http://bash.org/?946461 | 16:08 |
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| clau | :)) | 16:08 |
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| melonipoika | hei! | 16:19 |
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| melonipoika | So my jolla keeps rebooting :-( I have tried the recovery tool, but still it rebooted in the middle of a call just five minutes after running the tool :-( | 16:20 |
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| melonipoika | hi phdeswer :-) | 16:20 |
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| Pnuu | melonipoika: try taking the battery out for 10 mins | 16:21 |
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| melonipoika | i just tried "5) Try btrfs recovery if your device is in bootloop"... | 16:21 |
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| melonipoika | thanks Pnuu... | 16:21 |
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| melonipoika | i have done that before. | 16:22 |
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| mikma | so far seems like 1.0.3.8 has been a complete nest of bugs | 16:23 |
| phdeswer | hi melonipoika | 16:23 |
| * phdeswer hopes my provider has fixed their issues | 16:23 | |
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| melonipoika | :-) | 16:23 |
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| melonipoika | phdeswer, i just had another reboot in the middle of a call about 5 min ago. Is there anything i should see in the logs that might help? | 16:24 |
| kimmoli____ | i have had only one issue in 1.0.3.8., connection errror loop. no power issues. (knock on wood) | 16:24 |
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| slate | I have less issues with 1.0.3.8 when wifi is off. Could be placebo, but keepin it off. | 16:25 |
| slate | ;) | 16:25 |
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| phdeswer | melonipoika: well the last bits before it booted again? | 16:26 |
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| melonipoika | hmm | 16:27 |
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| melonipoika | Feb 17 18:15:58 localhost dbus-daemon[966]: (process:1125): mcd-CRITICAL **: _mcd_channel_set_status: assertion `channel->priv->status != MCD_C | 16:27 |
| melonipoika | HANNEL_STATUS_FAILED' failed | 16:27 |
| melonipoika | Feb 17 18:15:58 localhost mission-control-5[1125]: GLIB CRITICAL ** mcd - _mcd_channel_set_status: assertion `channel->priv->status != MCD_CHAN | 16:27 |
| melonipoika | NEL_STATUS_FAILED' failed | 16:27 |
| melonipoika | from the timestamp i guess it is this one | 16:27 |
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| phdeswer | melonipoika: nothing more? Can you paste it somewhere? | 16:29 |
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| melonipoika | i am using journalctrl, whre is the acutal file to scp to my pc? | 16:30 |
| rcg | melonipoika, workaround: journalctl > foo ; scp foo | 16:31 |
| melonipoika | :-) thanks rcg | 16:31 |
| rcg | yw :) | 16:32 |
| ar | http://arachnist.is-a.cat/c/6fee9a77c93f98205921557d39d5c566.png - other halves are famous! | 16:33 |
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| melonipoika | http://pastebin.com/FeEErie7 | 16:33 |
| Pnuu | ar: :-D | 16:33 |
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| ottulo | melonipoika: hah, I missed that while watching Kill la Kill :D | 16:36 |
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| slate | thermal imager toh.. give. | 16:45 |
| phdeswer | melonipoika: welcome to systemd, there isn't really a useful one :p Only some binary log that you can only read with systemd running afaik. | 16:47 |
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| melonipoika | :-D | 16:48 |
| AL13N_work | phdeswer: melonipoika: or a chrooted journalctl, or if you had syslog installed :-) | 16:48 |
| melonipoika | actually from my calls log it seems that the crash is not in that log | 16:48 |
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| melonipoika | does it overwrite the log for each reboot? I change the storage settings to persistent | 16:49 |
| melonipoika | but i have to go now for a while :-( | 16:50 |
| melonipoika | thanks for your help, hope we can catch this one :--d | 16:50 |
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| Turski | melonipoika: i heard those random shutdowns should be fixed in next update | 17:14 |
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| ln- | my aloe TOH had arrived | 17:22 |
| Frye | My both new toh's arrived! | 17:23 |
| Frye | Tomorow will be switching from one to another. Hard to see myself working too hard :D | 17:23 |
| ggabriel | hardly working :P | 17:24 |
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| Frye | Yeah, Ok one more cup of coffee. Wonder how it tastes with the aloe toh on my jolla :D | 17:25 |
| Frye | Or maybe black | 17:25 |
| Frye | or poppy red | 17:25 |
| Frye | or, well let's see the white one next. Although everyone has that. | 17:25 |
| ggabriel | sounds like too much coffee ;-) | 17:25 |
| Frye | :D | 17:25 |
| Frye | And I'm way too busy tomorrow. Got to feed 20ppl with only cooking place on open fire. | 17:26 |
| ln- | i'd be slightly more satisfied if changing TOH didn't result in a warning about SIM having been removed most of the times. | 17:26 |
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| Frye | ln-, never seen that happen myself | 17:32 |
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| mikma | it's quite odd that my jolla doesn't ring every now and then. my second phone is dual-sim and jolla has the main sim in it :O | 17:39 |
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| mikma | this is not the first time this has "not happened" | 17:39 |
| narchie | I want caldav | 17:40 |
| narchie | and the black toh | 17:40 |
| narchie | but I have to wait. | 17:40 |
| Yaniel | I want caldav and carddav too | 17:41 |
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| slate | mikma: same here | 17:44 |
| slate | calls appear in log as answered | 17:44 |
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| IZ1IVA | I want CalDAV and CardDAV so bad… | 17:56 |
| ggabriel | vote? | 17:56 |
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| IZ1IVA | Voted. Jolla says CalDAV is coming first, but still no ETA. And I correct myself, I don't *want* CalDAV, I *need* it. | 17:59 |
| ggabriel | that's why i don't use the jolla as my main phone just yet | 17:59 |
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| HylianSavior | sailfish doesn't have caldav yet? | 18:00 |
| IZ1IVA | I do, but it's a pain for this very reason only. | 18:00 |
| HylianSavior | does it support any type of cal sync? | 18:00 |
| ggabriel | it works with google ootb i think | 18:01 |
| ggabriel | but i don't use google | 18:01 |
| HylianSavior | ah | 18:01 |
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| ggabriel | then the backend is there | 18:01 |
| HylianSavior | guess i'll have to switch over to google for now then.. | 18:01 |
| ggabriel | but i dunno | 18:01 |
| * IZ1IVA bye guys | 18:02 | |
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| ighea | hmm... I just got a Aloe Other Half and there seems to be no way to change the sounds provided by the cover if the moodie thingie is in use :/ | 18:05 |
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| ighea | All the trouble so I and my pall at work wouldn't get mixed up when a message arrives and now I can't select my favorite ringtone | 18:07 |
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| slate | terminal.. | 18:08 |
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| ighea | I know, but that is not the reason to limit options on the UI :X | 18:08 |
| ighea | I mean what is the point with the ambiences if user is not able to customize em all? | 18:09 |
| ighea | especially when one pays money for it | 18:10 |
| c0ck4m0u53 | so on a similar note to igheas is it possible to use aloe toh ringtone with other ambiances? | 18:10 |
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| ighea | and also it does not currently seem to be possible to pre hear the sounds provided by the ambience so it is quite sudden whey the new sounds are played :D | 18:11 |
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| slate | ighea: only ringtone.. | 18:13 |
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| bnvk | Do any of you have this same bug https://together.jolla.com/question/28506/inbound-calls-dont-display-contact-name/ ? | 18:15 |
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| sledges | ighea: quite likely your concerns are already in tjc (if not, please be so kind to provide), and on the todo fixed hotlist for the upcoming updates | 18:50 |
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| ighea | sledges: nah, I already used slate's awesome advices and did a work around by symlinking everything everywhere and now it "works for me" and the problem is forgotten like it never existed! :b | 19:52 |
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| sledges | the ingenious power of linux :) | 19:54 |
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| ighea | yes, lets bury the problems so everyone can share the experience and grow! oh wait.. | 19:55 |
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| sledges | i was looking for evil+genius rather ;) | 19:56 |
| * sledges needs to polish his english | 19:56 | |
| ighea | I'm not following you, but that might be just an issue with my twitter client | 19:56 |
| sledges | :D | 19:56 |
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| * sledges just favourited that | 19:58 | |
| ighea | sledges: but in a nut shell my only current issue is that there is no official Jolla TOH with wine red color available yet. | 19:59 |
| * sledges ponders if he should spam with PlastiDip videos again.. | 19:59 | |
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| ighea | still no wine red | 20:00 |
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| sledges | take a step further, buy a spray gun (~100 EUR), and mix liquid PlastiDip in cans | 20:01 |
| Sail0r | and lime green | 20:01 |
| * sledges opens a spray shop | 20:02 | |
| ighea | it just is not acceptable if my phone does not match with my exentri wallet | 20:02 |
| ighea | I could always use some cheap nail polish to style the toh :E | 20:03 |
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| Turski | that's how they did it at 3310 times | 20:06 |
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| ighea | well, times change: then I had only one back cover to use, but now I have three to choose from | 20:08 |
| ighea | I was happier then :< | 20:09 |
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| narchie | any idea why all of a sudden my bluetooth icon popped up? | 20:21 |
| narchie | I've never once used bluetooth on my phone | 20:22 |
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| narchie | it just appeared | 20:22 |
| narchie | and wont go away | 20:22 |
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| sledges | narchie: does it switch off via settings?.. | 20:25 |
| narchie | nope | 20:25 |
| narchie | and it isn't even switched on | 20:25 |
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| cvp | hello | 20:48 |
| Quu | smello | 20:49 |
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| Acce | hi | 20:51 |
| Acce | cvp: did you get your hardware working cooler? | 20:52 |
| cvp | no, because no time to buy the parts | 20:52 |
| Acce | ah, ok. but you got a plan, that's great | 20:52 |
| cvp | in two days i have a free day, than i go and buy the parts :) | 20:53 |
| cvp | yeah, many helps me here and i hope it will work... | 20:53 |
| cvp | want finifsh this project :) .... | 20:56 |
| Acce | yep, good luck! | 20:57 |
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| cvp | i find a second one Limited Edition TOH for this :) | 20:58 |
| cvp | dont have a 3d printer and know how/time to create a 3D modell TOH | 20:58 |
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| cvp | can we put settings information on the NFC chip? like setting for brighness | 21:01 |
| tbr | the phone only reads the tag UUID | 21:02 |
| tbr | settings come from store/phone | 21:02 |
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| cvp | ok, than is my hope killed :) i hope that i can put some setting infos on NFC to setting up the brightness lower if i plug/connect the externel batterie to the phone :) | 21:05 |
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| cvp | a ODB II OTH was cool :) to read Car Errors/Problems :D (On-Board Diagnostic System) | 21:07 |
| cvp | TOH | 21:08 |
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| kehnoo | just tape generic elm327 thingy to cover and use it over bluetooth? :p | 21:10 |
| cvp | hrhr | 21:10 |
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| clau | narchie, have you tried reboot? | 21:13 |
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| cvp | is someone working on a native dreambox remote or hyperion app ? :) | 21:15 |
| tbr | isn't that just plain http calls? | 21:16 |
| * tbr hasn't booted his dbox2 in ages :-( | 21:17 | |
| cvp | hmm i dont know ... | 21:19 |
| cvp | but maybe yes, because all commands can be send over the webIF | 21:19 |
| cvp | EPG + record/set timers + streaming would be interesting | 21:21 |
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| Venemo | !seen artemma | 21:31 |
| Merbot | Venemo: artemma was last seen in #jollamobile 1 day, 2 hours, 57 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <artemma> I want faster app jolla app store processing for most important apps (facebook, Whatsapp, etc), let's go vote for it https://together.jolla.com/question/28270/get-priority-app-store-queue-for-most-wanted-interested-important-apps/ | 21:31 |
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| kimmoli | is tired. | 21:39 |
| kimmoli | just soldered two more toholed boards, and printed one -what should i call it- coverpart (?) | 21:39 |
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| Venemo | kimmoli: sounds quite cool :) | 21:42 |
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| kimmoli | i don't know which is most difficult part, oled flex or als sensor. but it took about 1 hour/board. not bad i think. see there has been some TOH discussions, wine red, OBD and mention about thermal imager (?) | 21:45 |
| stephg | good evening all | 21:46 |
| Venemo | so how exactly does this OLED thing work? | 21:46 |
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| kimmoli | briefly or TL;DR... OLED element is connected directly to the I2C, it has internal controller (SSD1306) which supports spi, i2c etc. then i have there TSL2772 ALS/proximity sensor (same as in phone) and IR led for proximity detection. and EEPROM (No NFC yet). Then i have daemon (toholed.service) started at boot. It connects to various signals in dbus to fetch data, and also uses ioctl for... | 21:50 |
| kimmoli | ...I2C accesses. It also exports the gpio/int as edgesensitive event - this comes from als/prox. in the sw, there is 1sec timer which it checks is 1 minute gone and updates the clock and battery. dbus signals are updated immediately. i have also registered as dbus service, so i can control it from my qml app. | 21:50 |
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| * stephg just walked into something, and goes back to read the logs | 21:54 | |
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| DrainBamaged | Doesn't that hurt a bit? | 21:57 |
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| Venemo | kimmoli: sounds great, although I meant it more from a user perspective | 22:01 |
| kimmoli | Venemo: aa... you have a clock on the other side of the phone. :P and battery level, and indicator for tweetian, phonecall and sms (atm). with automatic brightness control, and to save battery it will go off when in pocket. | 22:02 |
| kimmoli | and hopefully IRC too. | 22:02 |
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| cvp | hey kimmoli ;) | 22:03 |
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| kimmoli | hi | 22:03 |
| lolek | hi guys | 22:03 |
| cvp | hi | 22:03 |
| lolek | I've got a question, are there any plans of releasing some smaller phones? I mean physically smaller? | 22:03 |
| Venemo | kimmoli: sounds awesome! | 22:04 |
| Venemo | kimmoli: what color does it come with? | 22:04 |
| Acce | lolek: well, there are plans on releasing sailfish installable on any android phones | 22:04 |
| Acce | so you get some variety | 22:04 |
| Acce | no ETA known | 22:04 |
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| lolek | hmm | 22:04 |
| lolek | how about old bada phone ? | 22:04 |
| Acce | Venemo: cool blue :P | 22:05 |
| kimmoli | Venemo: display comes in whiteish NOT BLUE | 22:05 |
| Acce | oh, it just looks blue in the image? | 22:05 |
| stephg | there's an image? | 22:05 |
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| * stephg didn't see in the lawgs | 22:06 | |
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| lolek | Acce: ^^ | 22:07 |
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| Acce | stephg: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgibPYHCMAA90D3.jpg:large from kimmoli's twitter | 22:08 |
| stephg | thx Acce | 22:08 |
| kimmoli | photo with N9... | 22:09 |
| slate | I'd like one if the printed surface would be smooth | 22:10 |
| Venemo | kimmoli: very nice work | 22:10 |
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| kimmoli | there is a life story at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=92239 | 22:11 |
| slate | the other half in the video looks quite smooth. | 22:12 |
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| Venemo | kimmoli: wow! | 22:15 |
| stephg | that is quite wow | 22:15 |
| stephg | :) | 22:15 |
| kimmoli | i have few more toh ideas... just some of them are in tmo atm | 22:16 |
| slate | I like the fact that you know how to make them happen. | 22:16 |
| stephg | that is really rather wow actually | 22:17 |
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| kimmoli | as my great master as once said: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4yd2W50No&t=19s | 22:18 |
| Acce | so true | 22:19 |
| Venemo | yeah | 22:20 |
| Venemo | kimmoli: I'm still searching for my jaw | 22:20 |
| kimmoli | pick it up... | 22:20 |
| Venemo | :P | 22:21 |
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| Anz_ | tmo or tjc? tjc feels less hospitable | 22:22 |
| Acce | Anz_: for what? | 22:24 |
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| Anz_ | for 'general' discussions. user reviews, personal opinions. | 22:28 |
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| Acce | I'd say TMO then, tjc works better if you have one topic in your question, with purpose to find a solution to something | 22:29 |
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| Acce | and regular forum, such as tmo, works better for general talking | 22:30 |
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| Venemo | good night everyone! | 22:32 |
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| kimmoli | gn | 22:32 |
| kimmoli | tjc == together.jolla.com ? | 22:32 |
| ggabriel | kimmoli: yes | 22:33 |
| kimmoli | about tjc, there was poll about MD favourite toh idea. ambience light toh. is anyone making that?? (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1413045#post1413045) | 22:34 |
| * kimmoli goes home - half past midnight. Goodnight everyone, it was pleasure to talk with you as usual. | 22:36 | |
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| Waitee | : D | 23:19 |
| Waitee | wrong channel god damnit | 23:19 |
| debexpert | Next week at MWC. Who is attending? | 23:20 |
| debexpert | Lol @Waitee | 23:20 |
| Waitee | :( | 23:20 |
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| debexpert | Communities Jollafr Jollaes Jollait will be there | 23:21 |
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| Waitee | where is it held again? | 23:21 |
| debexpert | Barcelona | 23:21 |
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| Waitee | oh lol | 23:21 |
| Waitee | i should renew my passport | 23:22 |
| debexpert | :D | 23:22 |
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| Kail-2i3 | oh, damn, dbexpert has already quit... | 23:28 |
| Kail-2i3 | I wanted to tell him that although I won't have a pass (MWC is too expensive for a university student like me u_u) I can drop by there to meet outside of the congress | 23:31 |
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| Kail-2i3 | (in fact, if anyone has some problem or needs some basic info about Barcelona or anything I will be happy to help, assuming that I am not too busy at that moment :) ) | 23:33 |
| Kail-2i3 | that includes both jolla crew and the users/members of the community/anyone who needs help :P | 23:36 |
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| Kail-2i3 | (I've travelled abroad many times and I know how much knowing some local can save your life, or just make your journey a little better ^_^) | 23:41 |
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| Kail-2i3 | btw, I'm Nichope. Didn't notice that my nickname had changed due to connection issues | 23:44 |
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