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| Stskeeps | k | 19:23 |
|---|---|---|
| ZogG_laptop | ya | 19:24 |
| ZogG_laptop | bot | 19:24 |
| ZogG_laptop | Stskeeps: do not forget to add link to the weblog to topic :P | 19:24 |
| tbr | and I'll have to add it to the 'prettifying' log2html script by mgedmin | 19:24 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, will do when my desktop stops @#$@ing up | 19:25 |
| Venemo | well, I guess worst case we could hack together a bot of our own. if only I had a bunch of free time for it :) | 19:25 |
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| Morpog_PC | and retweeted Venemo's tweet about Puzzlemaster available in Jolla app store! | 19:29 |
| ZogG_laptop | Venemo: the chan is less not community one :P | 19:29 |
| tjp | note to self (and you): the activesync/exchange app doesn't like self-signed certificates and claims that the credentials were invalid | 19:29 |
| Stskeeps | tjp: what version are you on? | 19:30 |
| tjp | jolla version? 1.0.1.10 | 19:31 |
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| Stskeeps | tjp: okay | 19:31 |
| ZogG_laptop | Venemo: i see app in store \o/ | 19:32 |
| Venemo | ZogG_laptop: you have a jolla? :O | 19:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | still waiting for ircchatter on bb10 and on jolla if i get shipped eventually at some point | 19:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | Venemo: i have sailfish on n950 | 19:32 |
| tbr | tjp: yes, had a case of that today too | 19:33 |
| tjp | that started working immediately after changing the server's certificate to one issued by a public CA | 19:33 |
| tbr | tjp: being fixed for the future | 19:33 |
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| tjp | tbr: OK, great | 19:33 |
| tbr | tjp: a workaround would be also to add the cert manually after enabling developer mode | 19:34 |
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| Venemo | ZogG_laptop: those are in progress | 19:36 |
| Venemo | ZogG_laptop: the thing is, I have two tests and a homework for this week... so I'm a bit overflowed at the moment | 19:37 |
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| tjp | tbr: OK, thanks. I thought as much but since I was going to change the server certificate anyway and wasn't sure how exactly the certificates are being handled in the phone/exchange app, that was the easiest way for me. | 19:37 |
| tbr | it uses the regular system wide storage, somehwere in /etc | 19:38 |
| ZogG_laptop | Venemo: i'm just making noise, you don;t have to pay attention :P | 19:38 |
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| Venemo | ZogG_laptop: I'm always paying attention when someone addresses something to me | 19:38 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Stskeeps: not that i'm dissing qt5.2, but perhaps it could be more interesting to have a newer kernel, eg: for btrfs optimizations, and security patches (the next ltsi kernel is 3.12 iinm) | 19:39 |
| Venemo | AL13N_lizzy: why, what kernel is there now? | 19:40 |
| tjp | tbr: OK, good. Got my Jolla about an hour ago so I haven't got that far yet :) | 19:41 |
| Stskeeps | AL13N_lizzy: i think it's sadly not relistic to see a kernel upgrade. | 19:41 |
| tbr | AL13N_lizzy: the usual thing applies, silicon vendors throw a kernel tree over the wall and either you take it or you die | 19:41 |
| Stskeeps | AL13N_lizzy: ODM adaptations are usually stuck on a certain kernel version | 19:42 |
| Stskeeps | that said, we're on 3.4 | 19:42 |
| tbr | the embedded world sucks that way and will still do for quite a while | 19:43 |
| Stskeeps | which i think is a LTS kernel | 19:43 |
| * ShadowJK watched people use jolla first time ever | 19:44 | |
| ShadowJK | (and myself) | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | ShadowJK: how did it go? | 19:45 |
| nander | Still just 'paid' | 19:45 |
| Stskeeps | ShadowJK: and no, unrealircd isn't preinstalled | 19:45 |
| ShadowJK | Seems like heavy emphasis on being able to switch theme at any point quickly | 19:45 |
| nander | What number of EU jolla's are now state > paid? | 19:45 |
| ShadowJK | because everyone ended up in situations where that was only thing they could bring up :) | 19:45 |
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| Stskeeps | ShadowJK: hmm :) | 19:46 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | Stskeeps: ah, ok, i get that, though, 3.4 will be replaced by the next ltsi kernel, in a while, so, that could be good incentive to request updates for the ODM adaptations | 19:46 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tbr: Stskeeps 3.4 is an LTS kernel, though it will inevitably end and iinm 3.12 will take it's place | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | yup | 19:48 |
| AL13N_lizzy | i think it's worth a try, at least | 19:48 |
| AL13N_lizzy | btrfs would at least give some improvement according to #btrfs | 19:48 |
| tbr | AL13N_lizzy: the best thing would be if qualcomm would care | 19:48 |
| juergbi | AL13N_lizzy: next is actually 3.10 | 19:48 |
| AL13N_lizzy | juergbi: you're right, they didn't want to have the 3.11 changes | 19:49 |
| Stskeeps | there's no financial incentive to upgrade a kernel in this world typically, except maybe for security fixses | 19:49 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | i remember | 19:49 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:49 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Stskeeps: yes | 19:49 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Stskeeps: you can threathen to release the full scope of security bugs! :-) | 19:50 |
| nander | The estimated time of delivery was 3-4 weeks after payment, right? | 19:50 |
| DeeGee | Soo, does the phone automatically only mount smaller fat32 formatted sd cards? My 64Gb card with ext4 doesn't get mounted. | 19:51 |
| ShadowJK | iirc it was "Please pay before 2nd December to ensure deliver before christmas" | 19:51 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tbr: actually, the really best thing (though it won't happen) is if qualcomm would care less and just release the whitepapers or opensource driver for everything on it | 19:51 |
| nander | within december | 19:51 |
| nander | But on twitter I think I also read within 3-4 weeks | 19:51 |
| Venemo | ShadowJK: you could also pay _on_ 2nd december. | 19:51 |
| nander | after payment | 19:51 |
| nander | before the end of december 2nd | 19:52 |
| juergbi | is there an info page what non-mainline drivers are in jolla's kernel? | 19:53 |
| juergbi | or a git repo? | 19:53 |
| Jonni | DeeGee: currently it automaticly only mounts vfat, other filesystem mounting will start to work in later updates. | 19:53 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Jonni: DeeGee: does it mount in devmode? | 19:54 |
| Venemo | juergbi: they use libhybris on top of an android hw adaptation for the chip | 19:54 |
| Venemo | Jonni: what is the maximum allowed capacity of MicroSD cards? | 19:54 |
| Jonni | AL13N_lizzy: you can use mount command to mount it just fine in dev mode. | 19:54 |
| AL13N_lizzy | ok then | 19:54 |
| Jonni | There was just a bug in mount script that hard coded vfat, next version of script will support all formats | 19:54 |
| DeeGee | Jonni: thanks. AL13N_lizzy: mounts fine manually on devmode/root | 19:54 |
| ShadowJK | What filesystem kernel modules are available? | 19:55 |
| AL13N_lizzy | i've seen btrfs and ext4 and vfat in the dmesg output | 19:55 |
| AL13N_lizzy | ShadowJK: install bash-completion and do modprobe TAB | 19:55 |
| AL13N_lizzy | :-) | 19:55 |
| juergbi | Venemo: yes, that i know. i'd still be interested in these kernel infos/sources | 19:55 |
| nander | lol, that audio is among the most horrendous audio quality I have ever heard | 19:55 |
| nander | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux9xRt6I4I0#t=10 | 19:55 |
| AL13N_lizzy | juergbi: afaik there's an lsmod posted someplace... so that should give some hw adaptations? | 19:56 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | i'm just hoping the audio is just bad driver or pulseaudio tuning | 19:56 |
| Venemo | nander: but the image quality is quite good | 19:56 |
| nander | it had troubles focussing | 19:57 |
| nander | And it's blocky | 19:57 |
| tbr | juergbi: I guess a very similar kernel can be had from code-aurora, while we wait for a proper GPL release | 19:57 |
| ShadowJK | AL13N_lizzy; i dont have a device :) | 19:57 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | ShadowJK: join the club | 19:58 |
| AL13N_lizzy | pretty soon, it'll be us vs them | 19:58 |
| nander | I hope to get mine soon too | 19:58 |
| nander | I know a fellow student already has his one in 'in picking' | 19:58 |
| nander | Which means he'll get served first :( ;) | 19:59 |
| ShadowJK | what was his order number :D | 19:59 |
| nander | ~= 500 | 19:59 |
| Venemo | nander: not sure what you'd expect, that video is one of the best I've seen recorded with a phone | 19:59 |
| nander | Mine ~= 2800 ;) | 19:59 |
| AL13N_lizzy | ShadowJK: what? do you have an order nr too? | 19:59 |
| nander | Venemo , also, the colors seemed off | 19:59 |
| ShadowJK | 2*15xx something | 20:00 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tssk | 20:00 |
| DeeGee | I hope you are also planning on adding the sd card to be shown when transferring files with usb. For now only the "Phone Memory" is shown. | 20:00 |
| AL13N_lizzy | i'll be just me vs you all then | 20:00 |
| ShadowJK | 2*34xx something :) | 20:00 |
| nander | So they are at 500<shipped<1599? | 20:00 |
| juergbi | AL13N_lizzy: maybe jolla could be upgraded to this at some point: https://www.codeaurora.org/cgit/quic/la/kernel/msm-3.10/ | 20:00 |
| AL13N_lizzy | DeeGee: i suppose this will happen later on together with the jolla-fileman | 20:00 |
| Venemo | nander: no because the shippings are not sorted by the order id | 20:01 |
| AL13N_lizzy | juergbi: why the msm kernel? | 20:01 |
| nander | Date based? | 20:01 |
| juergbi | qualcomm soc | 20:01 |
| ShadowJK | nander; dunno. These numbers seem to be final payment order, maybe they're shipping in preorder order :P | 20:01 |
| Venemo | nander: 100€ preorderers first (sorted by date), then 40€, then 0€ | 20:01 |
| AL13N_lizzy | juergbi: is this qualcomm helping out? or just reverse engineering? | 20:01 |
| nander | they are payment order | 20:01 |
| nander | I have 3 different id's | 20:02 |
| nander | 2 pending payment, 1 paid | 20:02 |
| nander | Same device, failed payment twice | 20:02 |
| Jonni | ShadowJK: http://pastebin.ca/2496333 | 20:02 |
| AL13N_lizzy | juergbi: also, doesn't it eventually get into mainline? | 20:03 |
| juergbi | AL13N_lizzy: i haven't worked with qualcomm socs before, but this might be an officially supported kernel tree from qualcomm | 20:03 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Jonni: did you have all modules loaded? | 20:03 |
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| juergbi | AL13N_lizzy: parts of it are likely already mainlined. don't know how much | 20:04 |
| Sarvi | hey, i have a secret number, how can i show it to the people i'm calling, i can't find the option anywhere | 20:04 |
| Jonni | AL13N_lizzy: well I removed exfat from that list, since I've compiled that fuse support by hand in my device. | 20:05 |
| aupo | Any clever way to remove only contacts? It seems importing contacts with Japanese kanji from a Sony Ericsson mobile makes Messaging and Phone apps crash on startup. | 20:05 |
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| tbr | aupo: oh, interesting, would you be able to provide one or two of those in the form of e.g. vcard files (with e.g. numbers removed) | 20:07 |
| AL13N_lizzy | juergbi: it looks like it merges from some secret place | 20:07 |
| AL13N_lizzy | and codeaurora.org people are maintaining it a bit | 20:07 |
| AL13N_lizzy | looks fishy | 20:07 |
| aupo | tbr: Can you give me an email to send to? | 20:07 |
| Jonni | aupo: devel-su; rm -rf /home/nemo/.local/share/system/privileged/Contacts/qtcontacts-sqlite/* | 20:07 |
| AL13N_lizzy | iow, it could be qualcomm supported | 20:07 |
| aupo | Jonni: Thank you! | 20:07 |
| Nicd- | Sarvi: settings -> apps -> phone -> show my caller ID | 20:07 |
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| tbr | aupo: thomas@ruecker.fi | 20:08 |
| ShadowJK | aw, almost no fs support :-( | 20:08 |
| tbr | I'll forward them to the necessary teams in jolla :) | 20:08 |
| Sarvi | Nicd-: how the hell did i miss that, thanks! | 20:08 |
| phdeswer | ShadowJK: how do you mean almost no fs support? | 20:08 |
| AL13N_lizzy | :-) | 20:08 |
| ShadowJK | phdeswer; just the basics, ext,fat and then btrfs | 20:09 |
| AL13N_lizzy | iow: the ones that are working | 20:09 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | what did you want? the killing reiserfs? | 20:09 |
| Milo- | ugh, did anyone else have problems with the email app? | 20:10 |
| ShadowJK | nilfs, f2fs :D | 20:10 |
| Milo- | it's flashing the screen to show me that there is an error, but I've no idea what error. | 20:10 |
| AL13N_lizzy | ShadowJK: why would you use those? | 20:10 |
| phdeswer | I don't even know if those exist... | 20:10 |
| AL13N_lizzy | heh | 20:11 |
| phdeswer | There should be nfs too | 20:11 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Jonni: i didn't see nfs, indeed! | 20:11 |
| ShadowJK | oh yeah, nfs and cifs :) | 20:11 |
| Yaniel | Milo-: what did you do? | 20:11 |
| ShadowJK | f2fs because it's optimized for emmc/sd type storage \o/ | 20:11 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | ShadowJK: i expect cifs will be required by some apps | 20:12 |
| * AL13N_lizzy sighs | 20:12 | |
| AL13N_lizzy | cifs is crappy | 20:12 |
| Jonni | AL13N_lizzy: ah yes, that list only showed loaded modules, there are more supported too | 20:12 |
| tbr | just run a "find" against /lib/modules :) | 20:12 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Jonni: that's what i meant with did you load all modules earlier | 20:12 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tbr: we don't have a phone | 20:13 |
| Jonni | then answer is no I dont load any modules :) | 20:13 |
| Jonni | didnt even | 20:13 |
| * tbr does | 20:13 | |
| tbr | let me get it | 20:13 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tbr: my order nr is 0xFFFFFFFF | 20:13 |
| Jonni | AL13N_lizzy: there is also nfs and cifs avail | 20:15 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Jonni: also, likely fuse isn't even loaded by default, cause you tried exfat | 20:15 |
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| aupo | What may be the default devel-su passwd? | 20:15 |
| Jonni | AL13N_lizzy: its loaded by default | 20:15 |
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| Jonni | aupo: same as your nemo password that you have setup | 20:16 |
| tbr | aupo: you need to set it in settings | 20:16 |
| Nicd- | aupo: it's the ssh remote login password in the developer settings | 20:16 |
| aupo | Ah, okay | 20:16 |
| AL13N_lizzy | devel-su, is like sudo? where it uses the users' account? or can you set a different root password? | 20:16 |
| AL13N_lizzy | i mean the user's account password | 20:17 |
| Jonni | AL13N_lizzy: yep its like sudo, you can still set root password while your logged in as root with devel-su | 20:17 |
| AL13N_lizzy | thought so | 20:18 |
| tabasko | so, is there any way to get Jolla files connected with linux? | 20:18 |
| tbr | http://pastebin.com/B8aFVvkq if someone is still curious | 20:19 |
| Jonni | tabasko: sshfs? :) | 20:19 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tabasko: nfs | 20:19 |
| tabasko | Jonni, yeah. That is what Im using now :D | 20:19 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tbr: yes | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | tabasko: mtpfs | 20:19 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tabasko: can you try nfs? | 20:19 |
| tabasko | broke my alien dalvik only 2 hours after getting Jolla | 20:19 |
| tbr | tabasko: note that if you uninstall it it will wipe all apps and app settings | 20:20 |
| tabasko | AL13N_lizzy: why not, but doesnt sound very handy | 20:20 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tabasko: i'd be interested in knowing what kind of steps are needed to take to get nfs to work nicely | 20:20 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tabasko: why not? | 20:20 |
| tabasko | tbr: how do you uninstall alien dalvik? | 20:20 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | this way i can play video/music from my NFS store | 20:20 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | tbr: wow, that's alot more limited than i would've figured | 20:22 |
| tbr | tabasko: store client, my apps, select alien dalvik, pulley menu 'uninstall' | 20:22 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tbr: perhaps some modules are packaged differently and not installed by default | 20:22 |
| tbr | AL13N_lizzy: possible, some are also built in, like btrfs, as it's needed for boot | 20:23 |
| Nicd- | tbr: there is no alien dalvik in the store client | 20:23 |
| AL13N_lizzy | tbr: of course | 20:23 |
| Nicd- | and removing android support *won't* remove android apps or settings | 20:23 |
| aupo | tbr: Sending | 20:23 |
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| tbr | Nicd-: hmm, thought it did when I tried on the dna450 image | 20:23 |
| ShadowJK | this device I held for a few minutes had "android support" in store iirc | 20:24 |
| AL13N_lizzy | what happens if you long press an app in the store? do you get the same menu? | 20:24 |
| Nicd- | ShadowJK: it does | 20:24 |
| tbr | yes, that's what I checked | 20:24 |
| Nicd- | tbr: it doesn't remove android apps. if you try to open an android app after that, it will prompt you to install android support again | 20:24 |
| tbr | ah, ok | 20:25 |
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| aupo | hmm, for some reason even after setting the SSH remote passwd I get Auth failed from devel-su | 20:26 |
| tabasko | hmm, it seems that even factory reset doesnt recover normal state for alien dalvik | 20:26 |
| tabasko | android apps still fail to launch after fac reset and reinstalling android support | 20:26 |
| tabasko | aka alien dalvik | 20:26 |
| tbr | o.O | 20:26 |
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| tbr | tabasko: one thing I noticed is that android apps won't start if there are many other apps started and take up RAM | 20:27 |
| tabasko | and how I broke this, did try install google play :) | 20:27 |
| SpeedEvil | http://m.slashdot.org/story/195455 okaaaaaaaay... | 20:28 |
| SpeedEvil | (nokia android) | 20:28 |
| tabasko | tbr, thats not case here. No other apps runnign and same after reboot | 20:28 |
| tabasko | I think I messed permissions or something when I copied files to /opt/alien/system | 20:29 |
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| tbr | tabasko: try looking at logs: journalctl as root | 20:30 |
| tabasko | ah, systemd <3 | 20:30 |
| avey | can someone tell me in which folder android apps store their data? | 20:31 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | avey: http://elinux.org/Jolla | 20:33 |
| avey | thanks :) | 20:33 |
| AL13N_lizzy | http://elinux.org/Jolla#Where_do_I_put_.apk_files | 20:33 |
| Milo- | Yaniel I tried to create email account using the same settimgs as I did with my previous phome and hit the save option | 20:35 |
| Milo- | it's not very informative | 20:35 |
| aupo | Nemo registeration = "Allow develpoer updates" registeration? | 20:37 |
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| avey | AL13N_lizzy: hmm, I meant where the android apps store their configs, backups etc. i can't find them via usb | 20:38 |
| AL13N_lizzy | oh ic | 20:41 |
| narchie | is adding a twitter account not working or is my phone just acting up_ | 20:41 |
| narchie | it goes right back to the Accounts screen after I consent | 20:41 |
| AL13N_lizzy | avey: maybe somewhere in /home/nemo/.local/ ? | 20:41 |
| AL13N_lizzy | avey: you could try to do a find on last modified files? | 20:43 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | Venemo: congratz | 20:49 |
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| Venemo | AL13N_lizzy: for what? | 20:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | Venemo: i don't think they are sorted 100 40 0 | 20:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | i think or they mixed orders or they count full pay order | 20:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | i see people who order in june and getting while i ordered at 22 may and still nothing | 20:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | btw paid the day i got email(but not straight away as i was at work) | 20:54 |
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| avey | AL13N_lizzy: hmm, couldn't find it. but i am not a dev. so i might not know every corner to poke in | 20:59 |
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| Venemo | ZogG_laptop: that would be very rude | 21:09 |
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| ZogG_laptop | Venemo: it was said already | 21:09 |
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| Venemo | ZogG_laptop: where? | 21:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | Venemo: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1394554&postcount=274 | 21:11 |
| lusikka | is it possible to control how many tweets are shown on the twitter events screen? although the best option would be to paginate the tweets... :) | 21:12 |
| ZogG_laptop | Venemo: if you searching for exact words : "... and perhaps even in some cases mix-ed up priority order..." | 21:12 |
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| zmo | hi! | 21:13 |
| zmo | I got a friend who's currently in hulu and he's about to come back home in a week | 21:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | it would be funny if friend the address i used would leave country before package arrive | 21:14 |
| flux | soo, where can I buy batteries for Jolla?-) | 21:14 |
| zmo | I was wondering if there's a chance he could get a jolla phone for me at a local DNA | 21:14 |
| zmo | or some other place | 21:14 |
| zmo | before he's leaving finland | 21:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | zmo: there is only one way | 21:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | to find out | 21:14 |
| zmo | ZogG_laptop - except going back in time and do the preorder :-) | 21:15 |
| ZogG_laptop | zmo: i did pre-order it doesn't help me that much :P | 21:15 |
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| Yaniel | flux: I'm not aware of any official ones but the model seems to be fairly standard | 21:15 |
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| Venemo | ZogG_laptop: I don't think it was intentional | 21:20 |
| Venemo | anyway, enough with all the negativism | 21:21 |
| faenil | Venemo, you won't stop ZogG_laptop | 21:21 |
| flux | yaniel, do you know the model number? | 21:22 |
| Venemo | faenil: I've stopped my own negativism today | 21:22 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: and it's my fault that fail comes after fail | 21:22 |
| flux | it must be on.. the other side of the battery | 21:22 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, you just cannot see anything good in anything, bro | 21:22 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, and you fail to express without being aggressive :D | 21:22 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: i orded to friend from other country who would come to visit me for few days before he goes to his parents at russia so he can bring me phone | 21:23 |
| ZogG_laptop | so if it doesn't arrive at time and he went to russia to holidays | 21:23 |
| ZogG_laptop | noone would pick it there for long time | 21:23 |
| ZogG_laptop | and post would probably send it back | 21:23 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, if he is withing the 3-4 weeks stated, you're safe | 21:23 |
| ZogG_laptop | it's all about timing | 21:23 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: i can see good in good things :P | 21:24 |
| ZogG_laptop | but as well i say what i think | 21:24 |
| ZogG_laptop | and i think about things i see | 21:24 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, I have never been able to appreciate that in you then :P except when you talk about your companies | 21:24 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: if you remember Estel thing and how it ended | 21:26 |
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| faenil | nope | 21:26 |
| Venemo | what is the "Estel thing"? | 21:26 |
| ZogG_laptop | as well as we all can be friends, but if they do business why should i be not customer who paid and deserve to ... :) | 21:26 |
| faenil | hm? | 21:27 |
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| ZogG_laptop | you can tell one day "but we are just people and small company" and net day " we need to make business after all" | 21:27 |
| ZogG_laptop | you do or that or that | 21:27 |
| ZogG_laptop | i'm not telling it personally | 21:28 |
| ZogG_laptop | and i feel other vibe from few people over here on IRC | 21:28 |
| ZogG_laptop | i mean good vibe | 21:28 |
| ZogG_laptop | but official info and what's going on is not that cool | 21:28 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, ah, I understand | 21:28 |
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| ZogG_laptop | though there are few i don't like personally, you know who and we'll leave it liek that :D | 21:29 |
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| ZogG_laptop | you can say i'm whinning | 21:29 |
| faenil | no I just think many times you really don't want to try to understand why things go some way | 21:30 |
| faenil | you look at the obvious aspect, and refuse to try thinking about alternatives | 21:30 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: you just don't know me | 21:30 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, sure :) | 21:31 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: i'm one of those who think things thru before i do | 21:31 |
| ZogG_laptop | let's take example from few days ago | 21:31 |
| ZogG_laptop | we had problems at wok with important customer | 21:31 |
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| faenil | ZogG_laptop, not saying you don't, I'm saying that once you've made up your mind, you won't change for anything | 21:31 |
| ZogG_laptop | i told it probably not our fault but boss wanted to give them extra attention | 21:31 |
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| ZogG_laptop | and by trying to solv problme they messed up more | 21:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | i told few times it would happen | 21:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | after all it was customers problem from the begining btw :P | 21:32 |
| faenil | :P | 21:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | so when they fixed it we left with bugs we did trying to fix problem that doesnt exists | 21:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | sometimes you ened to think thing thru | 21:33 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: believe me i'm trying | 21:33 |
| ZogG_laptop | otherwise i wouldn't paying for phone and tell anything | 21:33 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, well, I haven't seen you saying anything good so far, except "I want stickers :D" | 21:34 |
| ZogG_laptop | last places i decided not to go/work with/have relation are just erased from mind and i don't talk/care/do anything | 21:34 |
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| ZogG_laptop | the problem that if i do care i just care too much | 21:34 |
| faenil | eh, I've seen that in other people, disappointed by past events, and now they just don't want to *believe* anymore | 21:34 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: it's funny and maybe the fault of my friend who resent me t-shirt but it didn't get stickers | 21:35 |
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| faenil | understandable | 21:35 |
| ZogG_laptop | i envy all you europeans that have hackatons, meetings and stuff | 21:35 |
| ZogG_laptop | and i asked you for stickers because i wanted to be at least part of something :P | 21:35 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, :D I can send you stickers, just I think it will be quite expensive | 21:36 |
| ZogG_laptop | add them to my order box | 21:36 |
| ZogG_laptop | and now why i'm negative? | 21:36 |
| ZogG_laptop | because people told there would be problems with delivery | 21:36 |
| ZogG_laptop | but answer was "nooooo way" | 21:36 |
| ZogG_laptop | while it should be " we'll try" and to keep us informed | 21:37 |
| ZogG_laptop | as you see even smaller companies startups on kickstart can stand on things like that, so size doesn't matter | 21:37 |
| ZogG_laptop | i do worry because of friend leaving country timeing | 21:38 |
| ZogG_laptop | and i feel bad that i preorded and i get it after someone just heard about it and bought at DNA shop | 21:38 |
| * RST38h moos | 21:38 | |
| ZogG_laptop | RST38h: privet :P | 21:38 |
| ZogG_laptop | i know it's not that important | 21:39 |
| ZogG_laptop | but those small things build the trust to company | 21:39 |
| ZogG_laptop | this disinformation is not first time | 21:39 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: now you get me | 21:39 |
| ZogG_laptop | ? | 21:39 |
| faenil | sorry bit busy, let's read | 21:40 |
| ZogG_laptop | oh and last. if i ordered 22 may and i ee someone from june getting device while my status is paid makes me worry | 21:40 |
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| faenil | ZogG_laptop, agree on that one | 21:40 |
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| ZogG_laptop | faenil: you see hte problem here, is most ilogical but most human | 21:41 |
| ZogG_laptop | that more you care and more you expect and trust - more you get upset with small things | 21:41 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, yes of course | 21:42 |
| ZogG_laptop | if it was something i don't care (table) and there would be delay — i wouldn't care | 21:42 |
| faenil | of course | 21:43 |
| Eztran | See, though, there are plenty of people on here who don't get upset about every last small thing. Do they all just not care as much? 'cause they certainly seem to, to me. | 21:43 |
| ZogG_laptop | as well as the point of telling info or not | 21:43 |
| micko_ | I'm trying to follow this: http://jollafin.blogspot.fi/2013/11/play-store-for-jolla.html | 21:43 |
| micko_ | but I can't copy any files to the phone | 21:43 |
| ZogG_laptop | Eztran: if they don't, does it make everything right? | 21:43 |
| micko_ | also I can't see the whole file system, like these instructions indicates | 21:44 |
| tbr | micko_: what's the exact error message or what are you exactly trying? | 21:44 |
| Eztran | ZogG_laptop: I don't quite understand what you mean by that. | 21:44 |
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| micko_ | no error. just can't copy. linux sees jolla as "USB PTP camera" and nothing more. windows shows a mouse pointer that indicates an impossible action | 21:45 |
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| Yaniel | micko_: enable developer mode, reboot, try again | 21:46 |
| Yaniel | you should get developer mode as a possible usb connection type | 21:46 |
| micko_ | developer mode enabled and couple of reboots done afterwards, but ok, I'll try again | 21:46 |
| RST38h | BTW, anyone knows what Jolla uses for Android compatibility? | 21:46 |
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| Yaniel | RST38h: alien dalvik | 21:47 |
| RST38h | thanks | 21:47 |
| ZogG_laptop | Eztran: i mean, if noone says anything it doesn't make things right | 21:47 |
| ZogG_laptop | Eztran: and in general and global if people would tell companies/others more and not "let things go" maybe we would live in little bit better place | 21:48 |
| ZogG_laptop | in general again | 21:48 |
| Eztran | Generally, yeah, I'd agree. Still, it's not like people complaining about the same things day after day actually gets anything done, or even gets the point across better, or helps anyone to improve. | 21:49 |
| Eztran | It just means... more complaining. | 21:49 |
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| micko_ | still no luck with moving files via usb. scp worked though | 21:51 |
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| ZogG_laptop | Eztran: yeah, but on other hand if the day they(you if you are sailor) faced the problem you could reach the people and inform them | 21:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | and not wait till last minute | 21:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | that would be different | 21:52 |
| Eztran | I do think that waiting so long to put the info out was a real mistake too, personally. | 21:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | the point as well tht 's not for the first time | 21:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | misinfo | 21:53 |
| Yaniel | micko_: yeah I meant using the usb network connection | 21:53 |
| Yaniel | also sshfs looks like a nice solution there | 21:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | so yes complaining and complaining again till someone who in charge starts to rethink few things | 21:53 |
| micko_ | I got Jolla on my wlan so I ssh'd to it's wlan ip | 21:54 |
| ZogG_laptop | as i do see how personal opinion of more and more sailors somehow different while i was told there is no real bosses there | 21:54 |
| micko_ | and scp'd the files | 21:54 |
| ZogG_laptop | micko_: is there nfs support btw? :P | 21:54 |
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| Eztran | They've hardly said anything wrong, but yeah, all communication's been very vague until recently, certainly. Complaining about that? Productive, to a point (I think they've already got the message, whether they act on it is the thing). | 21:55 |
| Eztran | Complaining about the bits they can't really do anything about? Just noise, really, and the genuinely constructive criticism could get lost in it. | 21:55 |
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| ZogG_laptop | Eztran: so what's the solution? | 21:56 |
| micko_ | ZogG_laptop: not out of the box it seems. mount gives "wrong fs type" error | 21:56 |
| ZogG_laptop | Eztran: i have similuar situaton with ISP | 21:56 |
| ZogG_laptop | i moved to new place | 21:56 |
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| ZogG_laptop | and they said i need to pay X$ to move internet | 21:56 |
| ZogG_laptop | but there is no option ot have speed i had | 21:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | i had 30/3 they changed to 15/1 | 21:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | i asked how long it would take | 21:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | as i could just connect to other company | 21:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | i was told a week | 21:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | anfter week and complains i was told week more | 21:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | and 3rd person after that told me that it is planned in two months but i'l get it in a week and refund | 21:58 |
| ZogG_laptop | after months and a week and after i get bill with no refund i got speed i wanted | 21:58 |
| ZogG_laptop | so i can leave it as is | 21:58 |
| ZogG_laptop | but should i? | 21:59 |
| Eztran | I've seen similar before, yeah. If you just get reasonable info up front, it becomes easier to deal with. Unfortunately, no company, be it Jolla or an ISP, wants to have to say officially 'we don't know, sorry'. | 21:59 |
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| ZogG_laptop | it's different situation but the point is the same | 21:59 |
| ZogG_laptop | Eztran: that's why i don't like to talk to customers, as i can't lie or talk "marketing" | 21:59 |
| ZogG_laptop | and few i'm in touch i fairly tell things i think | 22:00 |
| Eztran | I'd fail miserably in sales, too :) | 22:00 |
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| tbr | you'd be surprised | 22:00 |
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| tbr | I'm sometimes brutally honest with my customers and the business keeps coming, because we keep doing the stuff we agree on and we can talk openly and adjust things where necessary | 22:01 |
| ZogG_laptop | the point even is not to tell everything | 22:01 |
| ZogG_laptop | but not to try to hide | 22:02 |
| ZogG_laptop | as smart customer knows wht's wrong | 22:02 |
| * ZogG_laptop points to Elop example | 22:02 | |
| Eztran | I think (and I'm sure it's been said a million times before) there's a bit of a conflict in Jolla. They're simultaneously a small company who release info as and when (the bits we see here on IRC are an example)... | 22:03 |
| Eztran | and a company which has to put a large-scale front out to customers, in the hope of really expanding their potential market (the Twitter feed, press releases). We (overly generalising here, if I'm honest) want the first. | 22:05 |
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| ZogG_laptop | why not both | 22:06 |
| ZogG_laptop | and you can | 22:06 |
| Eztran | My describing of this is getting worse as I go on. | 22:06 |
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| ZogG_laptop | Eztran: as well as future customer i need to understand what support and relation would be | 22:09 |
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| ZogG_laptop | you see N900 and N9 were great phones | 22:09 |
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| ZogG_laptop | but with no support they failed | 22:09 |
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| ZogG_laptop | there was support from certain directions but we missed from others | 22:09 |
| ZogG_laptop | so i do need to know | 22:09 |
| Eztran | Along the lines of 'is this Nokia again?'? | 22:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | exactly | 22:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | we had a lot of contibution from Nokia | 22:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | even devices and competiotions | 22:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | but WONT fix and not releasing patches people send | 22:11 |
| ZogG_laptop | here we don't even get bugtracker | 22:11 |
| special | well | 22:11 |
| tbr | ZogG_laptop: if you find bugs in mer or nemo-mw you can directly submit to those | 22:11 |
| special | *most* of jolla's software is already public, it's on github, we submit PRs for all of our changes | 22:11 |
| ZogG_laptop | and you know after few times fooled by Nokia it's harder to believe | 22:11 |
| ZogG_laptop | and now it only makes it not the best | 22:11 |
| special | and we build directly from there. | 22:12 |
| ZogG_laptop | special: and if it's bug or feature request i want to be sure is seen | 22:12 |
| Eztran | Wasn't that the reason they suggested there wasn't a public bugtracker? Because people would just assume their reports were being ignored, or something like? I'll dig the post out again. | 22:13 |
| ZogG_laptop | just telling "we hear" is like my co-worker desinger answering "it's interesting point" on someones' opionon he doesn't care but don't want to hurt :P | 22:13 |
| special | tracking those with a community is difficult, I'm sure. Not something I know about | 22:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | Eztran: i saw. it was no time and no people | 22:14 |
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| ZogG_laptop | like answering same emails takes less time :P | 22:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | i think bugtrackers were invented to save time | 22:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | as well as community propoused with volontueers | 22:14 |
| tbr | ZogG_laptop: how do you solve the problem of end users filling the tracker with support issues? | 22:14 |
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| ZogG_laptop | tbr: you can use community monkey who familiuar with hwo it works to report proper info, to debug/ qa/test and submit patches | 22:16 |
| ZogG_laptop | it was done befoe with nokia | 22:16 |
| ZogG_laptop | they didn't use it | 22:16 |
| tbr | the N9 bugzilla was a JOKE | 22:16 |
| ZogG_laptop | n900 :P | 22:16 |
| special | fwiw, "not enough bugs/feature requests" isn't a problem we have right now :> | 22:16 |
| tbr | hehe, indeed | 22:17 |
| special | what does interest me, personally.. | 22:17 |
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| ZogG_laptop | it's not about that | 22:17 |
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| Venemo | for feature requests, I might agree, but for bugs, I think you should have a place for reporting them | 22:17 |
| ZogG_laptop | the point here is relation with community | 22:17 |
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| ZogG_laptop | is communication | 22:17 |
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| special | 1) we should engage community so that people who want to write code for mer/nemo/sailfish can; 2) it's important to have channels for people, including technical people, to report issues and information; 3) it's important to know what people want | 22:17 |
| ZogG_laptop | special: tbr btw "not enuf bugs" means - we don't care about your bugs as we have ours to fix? | 22:18 |
| special | I'm not sure a straight-up bugtracker is the best way to accomplish #2 and #3. | 22:18 |
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| ZogG_laptop | i think 1 and 2 is bugtracker | 22:19 |
| ZogG_laptop | 3rd is more twitter forum | 22:19 |
| Venemo | special: maybe not, but you should have a place to report bugs in your software | 22:19 |
| ZogG_laptop | and i don't want to talk about forum | 22:19 |
| ZogG_laptop | :) | 22:19 |
| special | usual disclaimer: I have nothing to do with any of this, I'm just providing perspective on my own opinion | 22:19 |
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| ZogG_laptop | that's exactly the personal answers we get | 22:20 |
| ZogG_laptop | but where is someone who has somethign to do with and can asnwer | 22:20 |
| special | I'd be wary of the cost of triaging and tracking community bugs along with our (necessarily) internal bugs | 22:21 |
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| special | I personally spend a disturbing amount of time going through bz emails | 22:21 |
| faenil | yeah, that really takes a lot of time | 22:21 |
| ZogG_laptop | special: it would reduce | 22:21 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, yes, hair | 22:21 |
| ZogG_laptop | special: before email they called you | 22:21 |
| ZogG_laptop | you see the point of showing the right direction | 22:22 |
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| ZogG_laptop | special: even if you answer there once a few days you could let people to vote/confirm bugs and you'll make a lot of people happy | 22:23 |
| ZogG_laptop | as i said some geeks just need their toys | 22:23 |
| ZogG_laptop | you don't need to look after them | 22:23 |
| Quu | *attention | 22:23 |
| Eztran | It's one thing having people clicking on a 'confirm' button, it's quite another actually taking it into account. | 22:23 |
| tbr | I'd be afraid of that thing turning into a graveyard | 22:23 |
| tbr | and people starting to claim 'nobody reads our bugs' | 22:23 |
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| special | right now, I guess it's tmo, twitter, IRC, sailfish-devel, and direct support where problems are being reported | 22:25 |
| faenil | +1 | 22:25 |
| faenil | (tbr) | 22:25 |
| special | we (as in developers) are reading those and they do get filtered into bugs | 22:25 |
| special | as things grow, that model probably will need to change, it's worth thinking about | 22:25 |
| tbr | especially as even more things become open source | 22:26 |
| ZogG_laptop | tbr: special faenil and as you answer on email to prvide info, you cna answer once in bugtracker and save the time just by linking it to all asking same question :P | 22:26 |
| Venemo | so, if, hypothetically speaking, I find a bug in the product and tell you about it, you will open a bug report in the internal bugzilla for it? | 22:26 |
| Eztran | special: Is the time spent collecting info from those currently smaller than using a unified place, then? (genuine question, I have no idea myself) | 22:26 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, you can link mailing list thread as well | 22:26 |
| special | Venemo: if appropriate, yes | 22:26 |
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| faenil | Venemo, yes | 22:26 |
| faenil | of course! | 22:26 |
| tbr | Venemo: happens all the time | 22:26 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: true but maillist you need to subscribe | 22:27 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, bz you need to register | 22:27 |
| ZogG_laptop | and you do get a lot of info combined | 22:27 |
| tbr | Venemo: I have two bugs queued to be written, one about MfE and certificate handling and the other is about imported contacts with special chars | 22:27 |
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| ZogG_laptop | faenil: use openid or even jolla account | 22:27 |
| ZogG_laptop | you need to have this to have jolla | 22:27 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, oh come on...registering is the issue no | 22:28 |
| faenil | now* | 22:28 |
| Yaniel | whoa the comments sections in the store are kidn of exploding | 22:28 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: nope | 22:28 |
| faenil | Yaniel, though we need more non-finnish comments ahah :D | 22:28 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: i didn;t say registering is an issue | 22:28 |
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| tbr | I'd rather see bug reports going directly to Mer and Nemo-mw where possible | 22:28 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, so...I haven't seen that much partecipation in bug reporting | 22:28 |
| ZogG_laptop | maillist is for list of mails bug tracker is for tracking bugs | 22:28 |
| faenil | and yet people complain :P | 22:28 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: we ahven't seen devices yet | 22:29 |
| special | tbr's point is good as well | 22:29 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, you havent', but there are few thousand already out there I believe | 22:29 |
| ZogG_laptop | faenil: people complain as they want to undestad what is jolla | 22:29 |
| tbr | those trackers are open longer than jolla has been known publicly | 22:29 |
| ZogG_laptop | are they just looking and hearing and deciding on own who is impotant and whose bugs should be fixed or even if they do anyting about my twitter reports | 22:30 |
| ZogG_laptop | or they have a lot of bugs in tracker but as they are small company | 22:30 |
| ZogG_laptop | we see answers | 22:30 |
| ZogG_laptop | but not everywhere | 22:30 |
| phdeswer | Well we do look around a lot of things. It is just hard to make promises | 22:30 |
| ZogG_laptop | there is difference of seeing 2 nswers or seeing none | 22:31 |
| ZogG_laptop | anythin > none | 22:31 |
| special | one problem with end-user bugtrackers is that many of the bugs aren't actually actionable | 22:31 |
| Eztran | Hence WONTFIX? | 22:31 |
| special | support requests, feature requests, WONTFIX/INVALID/DUPLICATE.. | 22:31 |
| special | things that are simply too vague to reproduce or act on | 22:32 |
| phdeswer | And you get people upset when you "ignore" their bug | 22:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | special: i remember i had n900 | 22:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | it has that bug if someone calls you and you on silent | 22:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | music player starts to play | 22:32 |
| w00t | phdeswer: hmm.. speaking of trackers, we're about to hit 14000 :) | 22:32 |
| special | so there's a lot of work that has to take place in triaging. Then you can either close it, and people get angry at being blatantly rejected, or you ignore it, and people get angry at not being heard.. | 22:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | it was set as WONTFIX | 22:32 |
| phdeswer | w00t: reminds me I need to close one ;) | 22:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | and that's why i want to see bugtracker and i want to see support | 22:33 |
| * w00t checks when 13000 was filed... | 22:33 | |
| w00t | 15th of november | 22:33 |
| Yaniel | uh huh | 22:33 |
| faenil | 1k a month? we're too nice :P | 22:33 |
| Yaniel | well it sort of explains the lenghtish changelog of the update | 22:33 |
| w00t | 12000 was 30th of october, 11000 11th of october.. we had a busy month apparently | 22:34 |
| phdeswer | Yaniel: and even that is only the highlights | 22:34 |
| Yaniel | hehe | 22:34 |
| Yaniel | btw | 22:34 |
| Yaniel | I had problems with a basic wpa wlan as well | 22:34 |
| faenil | 3k bugs in 40days...not bad, not bad :D | 22:34 |
| Yaniel | it would just say "unable to connect" without asking for password | 22:34 |
| Yaniel | after rebooting it worked fine though | 22:35 |
| faenil | Yaniel, connectivity is so much fun | 22:35 |
| Yaniel | yeah | 22:35 |
| faenil | right lpotter ? | 22:35 |
| Eztran | Don't you just love it when reboots fix things they should make no difference to? | 22:35 |
| tbr | Yaniel: did you install update1 already? that fixed some of those problems | 22:35 |
| Yaniel | yes | 22:35 |
| tbr | ok | 22:35 |
| Yaniel | the update btw took more 3G bandwidth than I've used during the entire year :D | 22:36 |
| Yaniel | since I didn't get it to connect to wlan at all before the update | 22:36 |
| tbr | if networking goes wonky you can ofc try to restart connman and the other networking related services | 22:36 |
| Yaniel | (hidden network) | 22:36 |
| fk_lx | ZogG_laptop: well I understand your point of view, Jolla is afraid that such bugtracker would become a mess, because they are a small company, but at the same time they could use some parts of community, which has wise people, to prevent bugtracker from becoming a mess. Jolla doesn't know yet how to handle voluenteers effectively in my opinion. | 22:36 |
| Yaniel | I'll keep that in mind | 22:36 |
| Yaniel | systemctl restart connman.service? | 22:37 |
| tbr | yeah, something like that | 22:37 |
| ZogG_laptop | fk_lx: but how much can we wait? | 22:37 |
| ZogG_laptop | fk_lx: they claimed they worked with nokia so they should know :P | 22:37 |
| special | fk_lx: you can do some work for me if you like :> | 22:37 |
| tbr | patience is a virtue | 22:37 |
| fk_lx | ZogG_laptop: I don't have an idea, but I assume they are actively working on that | 22:37 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, hey, the phone has just shipped | 22:38 |
| faenil | people are busy 24h fixing bugs | 22:38 |
| ZogG_laptop | ssze or what his nick first post on TMO was claiing he had root access to TMO | 22:38 |
| faenil | where should we find the force to take of that as well? | 22:38 |
| ZogG_laptop | like it's really cool thing | 22:38 |
| fk_lx | ZogG_laptop: because it is cool to have root :-) | 22:38 |
| Eztran | I... didn't read it that way, but OK. | 22:38 |
| fk_lx | special: actually I was interested in certain topics, but I need to wait for things to clarify | 22:39 |
| ZogG_laptop | Eztran: tell me why someone would mentiion he had root access to server X when it's his post on this server site? | 22:39 |
| ZogG_laptop | we are all human after all | 22:39 |
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| Eztran | Looked to me like he was just trying to get some evidence behind his claims that he knew TMO well. | 22:40 |
| ZogG_laptop | Eztran: it's his fist post there man | 22:41 |
| ZogG_laptop | and TMO was personal forum all the time afaik | 22:41 |
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| ZogG_laptop | i mean nokia paid for it from some point but it was internettablets or somethign forum | 22:41 |
| special | fk_lx: anythng that I can clarify? | 22:41 |
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| fk_lx | special: unfortunately you cannot ;-) | 22:42 |
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| fk_lx | ZogG_laptop: I can tell that steez has good intentions, otherwise he wouldn't appear on TMO | 22:43 |
| ZogG_laptop | fk_lx: maybe it's coz i don't know him personally, but it's not first time i see this attitude and "looing from above" | 22:44 |
| ZogG_laptop | and mostly i do pay attention to those things for reason | 22:45 |
| Eztran | He was on Maemo/MeeGo teams, so it's very likely he'd been around TMO/maybe ITT, even if that was the first post from that account. | 22:45 |
| fk_lx | ZogG_laptop: I'm sure he cares about you and what you think in the end | 22:45 |
| ZogG_laptop | but again its's internet and i maybe wrong | 22:45 |
| fk_lx | ZogG_laptop: things are usually not that way as they seem at first moment | 22:45 |
| ZogG_laptop | fk_lx: result is important | 22:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | word are word | 22:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | deeds are deeds | 22:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | but mixed they have meaning for each other | 22:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | if you get my poor english right | 22:46 |
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| fk_lx | ZogG_laptop: I know what you mean, but you need to give them a little bit more time I think | 22:47 |
| w00t | ZogG_laptop: in all honesty, I think something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith should apply, and that repeatedly picking out a single point of his post (when you may be misinterpreting it) isn't really helping anyone | 22:48 |
| fk_lx | ZogG_laptop: Rome wasn't build in a day (looking at faenil as he is Italian) ;-) | 22:48 |
| AL13N_lizzy | wtf! is that what i think it is... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=440907089366108 | 22:48 |
| Yaniel | :D | 22:49 |
| AL13N_lizzy | can someone finnish tell me in short what's on there? | 22:49 |
| Eztran | AL13N_lizzy: Whyyyyy? I didn't want to see that. | 22:49 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Eztran: then, why did you click? | 22:50 |
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| Eztran | Because there's no way curiosity would let me do otherwise, of course! :) | 22:50 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Eztran: so, you're finnish, what exactly does it say? | 22:50 |
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| grejppi | "testing the sailing features of the new jolla" | 22:51 |
| Yaniel | pros: innovative design | 22:51 |
| Yaniel | functionality in dry environments | 22:51 |
| Eztran | I'm not Finnish - I just chucked it into a translator. But yeah, they don't think much of its water resistance, apparently. | 22:51 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | the video didn't really do much, did the screen just go into auto standby? or did it really break? | 22:52 |
| Yaniel | cons: buoyancy, water resistance, lack of storage space, inlets | 22:52 |
| vgrade | its in a bag | 22:53 |
| Yaniel | yeah looks like it | 22:53 |
| AL13N_lizzy | vgrade: yes | 22:53 |
| Yaniel | so the screen just turned off I guess | 22:53 |
| AL13N_lizzy | aha! | 22:53 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Eztran: and here you were fearing the worst! | 22:53 |
| AL13N_lizzy | fakers! | 22:53 |
| Yaniel | well we were also waiting for "will it blend" | 22:54 |
| fk_lx | well, anyway as bugtrackers are concerned, there is bug tracker for Mer and bugtracker for Nemo, so those bugtrackers already cover a lot of what's in Jolla phone on software side, the only thing that is missing is bugtracker for Sailfish parts. I think the opinions if there should be a public Sailfish bugtracker or not will exist | 22:54 |
| Yaniel | fk_lx: maybe they should be linked to from jolla.com etc then | 22:54 |
| AL13N_lizzy | fk_lx: there was a post from marc about bugzilla somewhere | 22:54 |
| Yaniel | I don't remember coming across anything (not that I'd spent much time looking) | 22:54 |
| AL13N_lizzy | something like: not useful to have one if noone will read it | 22:55 |
| grejppi | I guess lots of people will throw their jolla phones into water just for the sake of a pun | 22:55 |
| Yaniel | hmm 12h and 31% battery | 22:55 |
| fk_lx | important thing is to talk openly. When I wrote that part of the blogpost about community (avaliable on Stskeeps blog) I remember that Stskeeps agreed with the point about Sailfish bugtracker, which shows that even in Jolla there are different opinions on that matter | 22:55 |
| AL13N_lizzy | yes | 22:55 |
| AL13N_lizzy | fk_lx: he said something about first community and only then bugzilla | 22:55 |
| AL13N_lizzy | so that there's a good basis | 22:56 |
| AL13N_lizzy | or something | 22:56 |
| fk_lx | I'm not saying their internal bug tracker should be open - in my opinion it shouldn't, it's very clear for me. But there should be community sailfish bugtracker. | 22:56 |
| fk_lx | also | 22:56 |
| w00t | fk_lx: of course there are ;) | 22:56 |
| w00t | we're 80+ individuals, we disagree on a daily basis, and it's healthy to do so | 22:56 |
| Yaniel | what about a community bugtracker that is synced to the internal one to some extent? | 22:56 |
| Eztran | Mmm... could work, might be more hassle than it's worth. | 22:57 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | fk_lx: thing is, if it's a community bugtracker, it should maybe also be run by community and get fixed by community | 22:57 |
| Yaniel | bugs could be linked manually when they are chosen for investigation by jolla | 22:57 |
| Yaniel | and marked as such | 22:57 |
| Yaniel | "we're working on this internally" | 22:57 |
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| fk_lx | w00t: so anyway in my opinion there should be a public _community_ sailfish bugtracker in additon to fact that Jolla has it's own internal one, which is obvious as some bugs or stuff shouldn't be public because of many different reasons | 22:58 |
| Yaniel | or "community member xxx is working on this" if not | 22:58 |
| AL13N_lizzy | fk_lx: not saying jolla devs can't be in community either | 22:58 |
| special | fk_lx: is there any reason the community can't go create one now? :) | 22:58 |
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| fk_lx | special: I am afriad that 10 community bugtrackers would pop out, just like 10 Jolla communities forum there are now | 22:58 |
| AL13N_lizzy | i think it's important to actually create community from community, but it needs to be recognized with Jolla, if it doesn't the community won't work | 22:59 |
| special | like tmo, IRC, and all of the others I mentioned earlier; if it exists and people are using it, we'll pay attention | 22:59 |
| special | what we do officially requires more time and careful consideration. | 22:59 |
| w00t | AL13N_lizzy: I think you're missing a beginning to that story | 22:59 |
| AL13N_lizzy | fk_lx: community should be started with a select active people who are willing and some jolla devs who are willing and able | 22:59 |
| AL13N_lizzy | w00t: maybe i didn't scrol back far enough | 22:59 |
| w00t | many good things in the world started out with just one person willing to build something | 22:59 |
| w00t | it's a lot easier and faster for one person to move than it is for a company, that will always be true whether there's 80 people or 80,000 | 23:00 |
| fk_lx | w00t: many good things started on community working on it | 23:00 |
| fk_lx | w00t: so we can agree that both ways work | 23:00 |
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| phdeswer | And to be honest it saves us time to take the feedback and just do it, without having bugs in the open and remember to put feedback there etc... | 23:01 |
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| fk_lx | phdeswer: the problem is assumption, that only those 80 people w00t is talking about can do that, I think Jolla is missing a lot of good community people or voulnteeers that could help | 23:02 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: missing in sense, not seeing them | 23:02 |
| AL13N_lizzy | fk_lx: ++ | 23:02 |
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| eyea | Jolla Jollo Jollo Johnson | 23:03 |
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| special | what do the community and volunteers need *from us* to start doing things, then? | 23:03 |
| AL13N_lizzy | fk_lx: i get the feeling that community is viewed as a drain on resources instead of a influx of it | 23:03 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: in my opinion Jolla built a wall between itself and _tech_ part of community (I'm not talking about community of fans, but community of technical people that could be of some help) | 23:03 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: there is a lot for the community to do. If there are good hacks and improvements we will probably take them. | 23:03 |
| Yaniel | special: a central hub to start | 23:04 |
| special | fk_lx: I think that's ridiculous. You're talking to a couple of jolla's developers right now, and most of our work happens in opensource projects. | 23:04 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: problem is that t_community (tech community) has it's hands tied, as you closed yourself in a tower | 23:04 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: and not really sure there is a wall if we have people from the inside talking with you all and the tech people | 23:04 |
| special | that's not much of a wall. | 23:04 |
| Yaniel | I haven't got much interest in hunting around mer and nemo wikis&bugtrackers to see if there is anything interesting to do | 23:04 |
| phdeswer | If there was a wall or a tower we would not be here. | 23:04 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: well talking is one thing, you can always shout from tower or behind a wall | 23:05 |
| Yaniel | but if there is some place that could gather them somehow nicely together I might glance over it every now and then | 23:05 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: I had discussions with Aard at some point or I don't know who it was weeks ago | 23:05 |
| fk_lx | and .... | 23:05 |
| AL13N_lizzy | imho community can run itself without outside help... it's just that sometimes some stuff needs to be communicated with jolla devs, so we kind of need a person who can actually get things done inside Jolla when needed | 23:05 |
| special | AL13N_lizzy: they're all over here. | 23:06 |
| fk_lx | we talked about what is stoper for t_community to take more active part | 23:06 |
| w00t | AL13N_lizzy: phdeswer, me, and special are all jolla developers -- i think you're seeing obstacles that don't actually exist | 23:06 |
| fk_lx | so there are no TODO's on Nemomobile parts github projects | 23:06 |
| AL13N_lizzy | special: yes, but we don't know who gets stuff done, we just shout here in the hope someone listens or not | 23:06 |
| special | AL13N_lizzy: then poke the people you do know and we'll tell you where to go | 23:06 |
| AL13N_lizzy | ok then | 23:07 |
| fk_lx | there is hard to tell what actually can be done, what is roadmap with differnet parts of Nemo | 23:07 |
| phdeswer | AL13N_lizzy: and if it is something we handle ourselves you can bet that you will get direct feedback | 23:07 |
| w00t | fk_lx: the TODO is "scratch your own itch" | 23:07 |
| fk_lx | only part that is discussed it's Glacier and that part is not done by Jolla | 23:07 |
| AL13N_lizzy | then we can say that the communication point is #jollamobile channel | 23:07 |
| eyea | Are there any Jolla dev in channel | 23:07 |
| eyea | Right now | 23:07 |
| Eztran | eyea: just, um, half the channel. | 23:07 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Eztran: can't be :-) | 23:07 |
| AL13N_lizzy | only 80 ppl | 23:08 |
| special | it's strange; I don't view the community as "a workforce to do items off of Jolla's TODO list for free", as some of you are implying.. | 23:08 |
| Eztran | Yeah, I was joking a bit, but of the active channel? | 23:08 |
| special | we pay people to work on our ideas | 23:08 |
| fk_lx | w00t: also you don't know who works on what parts currently, to not double the effort if community would like to want to participate | 23:08 |
| special | the value in a community is when you guys come up with things and do things we don't, or hadn't thought of | 23:08 |
| w00t | how do you not know? | 23:08 |
| w00t | the git logs are right there, in those repositories | 23:08 |
| eyea | I mean who work for Jolla | 23:08 |
| AL13N_lizzy | w00t: there's public git logs? | 23:09 |
| AL13N_lizzy | that would be odd | 23:09 |
| fk_lx | w00t: for me it's not clear who is actually working on what - I see parts of code that appear, but no one said he or she is working on that | 23:09 |
| special | I don't *want* a community of people willing to be my code monkeys. I want a community of people chasing their own ideas and doing amazing things I hadn't dreamed of. | 23:09 |
| w00t | AL13N_lizzy: http://github.com/nemomobile/ - http://github.com/nemomobile-packages/ - http://github.com/mer-packages/ are the primary locations | 23:09 |
| AL13N_lizzy | ah yeah | 23:09 |
| AL13N_lizzy | w00t: i thought you mean sailfish stuff | 23:10 |
| Yaniel | w00t: and could we get those gathered to one easy to find place? | 23:10 |
| fk_lx | special: to come with great idea, people usually start from being code monkeys | 23:10 |
| Yaniel | heck, a RSS feed of them would be awesome | 23:10 |
| fk_lx | special: you need to practice sth to come out with great ideas ;-) | 23:10 |
| phdeswer | I have the same idea of a community. You do the cool stuff we don't think of, don't have time for. Or what just scratches an itch you have. Not a pool of people to fix our bugs | 23:10 |
| AL13N_lizzy | http://elinux.org/Jolla i'll put some stuff there | 23:10 |
| Morpog_Mobile | Yaniel: sailfishos.org | 23:10 |
| eyea | There should be a my Jolla site | 23:10 |
| eyea | Like | 23:10 |
| eyea | My meego | 23:10 |
| eyea | Or my Maemo | 23:10 |
| special | guys, you're procrastinating :p | 23:10 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: "pool of people to fix our bugs", so are you afraid of competition or what? I don't get it | 23:11 |
| AL13N_lizzy | special: so are you :-) | 23:11 |
| fk_lx | I thought it was about fixing bugs and making OS better | 23:11 |
| AL13N_lizzy | special: that's what IRC is for :-) | 23:11 |
| special | fk_lx: you should fix *your* bugs, the things you care about | 23:11 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: well I don't mind if people fix our bugs :) If I would get a patch, the first thing I do is review it and apply if it is ok. | 23:11 |
| AL13N_lizzy | imho fixing bugs and making os better is part of it | 23:11 |
| Yaniel | special: yes, but it does not make much sense if you are already working on it | 23:12 |
| phdeswer | But I do not expect you guys to look at us for a todo list | 23:12 |
| special | Yaniel: okay, so look at git, see who works in the area, and ask them on IRC | 23:12 |
| AL13N_lizzy | phdeswer: and patches are nice, but then we'd need to see the sailfishos code to actually fix that | 23:12 |
| special | Yaniel: that's the same thing I do when I have a problem internally :) | 23:12 |
| fk_lx | special, phdeswer: you should accept the fact that there are different people in the community - those who want to come up with completely new things, and those who want to help on existing ones | 23:12 |
| Yaniel | AL13N_lizzy: again, mer/nemo | 23:12 |
| Yaniel | (mostly) | 23:12 |
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| AL13N_lizzy | i seem to remember someone talking about the qcom open source module | 23:12 |
| w00t | fk_lx: so *pick something* and improve it :) | 23:12 |
| AL13N_lizzy | that's definately somehting community can do | 23:13 |
| w00t | if you don't know how, talk to the people working on it | 23:13 |
| faenil | w00t, pick something from where | 23:13 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: well I guess if you see bugs, you can fix them. There is no need for us to provide a list | 23:13 |
| w00t | faenil: do you have a phone handy? | 23:13 |
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| ZogG_laptop | w00t: sorry for late answer, was at other chat | 23:13 |
| phdeswer | AL13N_lizzy: and as stated apart from some UI bits and 3rd party things we don't even have code access to. It's all out there. | 23:13 |
| special | it's easy to come up with a list of things Jolla could be doing to encourage more community work or make things easier for community, and I'm sure we will end up doing many of them.. | 23:13 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: there is lack of place where bugs are listed ... | 23:13 |
| special | but honestly, all of the tools you need are right there. Go, do stuff. | 23:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | w00t: good faith is good, but price for phone is not low and we were screwed by Nokia already few times | 23:14 |
| ztane | jolla irc | 23:14 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: in some ordered way -> hint: community bugtracker | 23:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | fk_lx: you see, i was not attacking like that from beging | 23:14 |
| faenil | w00t, 3 | 23:15 |
| ZogG_laptop | fk_lx: probably Rome is city, but relationships are built not in one day | 23:15 |
| w00t | ZogG_laptop: with the utmost respect, with that kind of an attitude, all that you're going to do is to get us to ignore you (sooner or later) | 23:15 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: again, that is you expecting us to make you a todo list. If we can do a bugtracker fine, but atm I think we have higher priorities. And to be honest I hope you guys are smart enough to fix things without having to look at a list. | 23:15 |
| fk_lx | ZogG_laptop: I know you well, and I know you are doing this because you care and you are disappointed with some parts | 23:15 |
| w00t | I don't want to screw you, and neither does anyone else | 23:15 |
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| w00t | so walking into a conversation with that kind of assumption does not make for a fair fight | 23:15 |
| special | phdeswer: maybe we fixed too many bugs, and they can't find any? | 23:15 |
| ZogG_laptop | w00t: after all i'm one of X people you want to be your customers | 23:16 |
| fk_lx | well the important thing that Stskeeps asked, was how to built a proper community where it really doesn't matter if someone is working at Jolla or not | 23:16 |
| fk_lx | and he really was looking forward to find ways for that, I was also thinking about it, where are the barriers | 23:17 |
| AL13N_lizzy | http://elinux.org/Jolla#Features_possibly_to_be_added_later_.28aka_TODO_list.29 <-- some of this can be done by community | 23:17 |
| phdeswer | I am sure if we can spare manpower and resources to set things up like a bugtracker we would. But atm we focus on making a as good as possible product for you guys | 23:17 |
| AL13N_lizzy | you can add your names next to it if you want to work on it | 23:18 |
| special | what you will find is that jolla's developers are very accessible if you ask | 23:18 |
| w00t | AL13N_lizzy: do you have edit rights there? | 23:18 |
| faenil | but remember that they may live in different timezones! :D | 23:18 |
| w00t | AL13N_lizzy: please note that "improved clock sync" should have improved in update1, timed now tries to use ntp when automatic time update is enabled | 23:18 |
| ZogG_laptop | w00t: it would be fair from someone asking for something to pay back right? as preorder is faith, i think i gave more than enuf, while i know you do work hard, but you could do a lot of things better, and if even no, you could get other reaction if you would communicate differently, or we'll say communicate somehow...(now it's only getting better, but still long eay for you as company) | 23:19 |
| Venemo | w00t: why ntp, and why not the cellular network? | 23:19 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: that's kind of logic, I would buy/give shovels to community, but I'm now busy with diigging super best trench for you | 23:19 |
| w00t | Venemo: it already used the cellular network | 23:19 |
| special | Venemo: cellular tells you the current time, NTP keeps you from drifting off of it | 23:19 |
| w00t | Venemo: but not all networks give the right time, some don't give time at all | 23:20 |
| Venemo | okay! | 23:20 |
| AL13N_lizzy | w00t: yes, i had heard about that, but yes, i do have edit rights | 23:20 |
| w00t | and that | 23:20 |
| AL13N_lizzy | w00t: is the scrolling notifications also in this update? | 23:20 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: you do not need us to buy you shovels to dig, that's my point. | 23:20 |
| w00t | AL13N_lizzy: ask me tomorrow and I'll double check | 23:20 |
| AL13N_lizzy | also, it would be nice if we can sort of mark what is impossible for community | 23:20 |
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| merlin1991 | yeah my network does not give time, I had to roll some ntp solution on n900 and n9 :D | 23:20 |
| AL13N_lizzy | w00t: if i remember :-) | 23:20 |
| w00t | AL13N_lizzy: ask me about that tomorrow, and I'm happy to help with that, too | 23:21 |
| AL13N_lizzy | lol | 23:21 |
| Eztran | Having a list of 'not going to happen's would actually be pretty great. | 23:21 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: maybe if you could make proper use of community, you would find more time to work on even more interesting stuff, as someone would take care of the stuff you are working currently on | 23:21 |
| w00t | (it's past midnight here, my brain has mostly switched off work..) | 23:21 |
| phdeswer | If I have a problem with something on my laptop or some tool or whatever. I will just fix it (I could look if some fixes are already out there first etc) But I am not going to look at a bugtracker to find out if they know about it. | 23:21 |
| w00t | (he says, while sitting on irc discussing work.) | 23:21 |
| ztane | if you think that lack of ntp is the biggest problem, i think i bought the wrong phone... | 23:21 |
| Venemo | w00t: we appreciate your enthusiasm :) | 23:22 |
| w00t | ztane: a lot of people use their phone as an alarm. having a phone that drifts off onto the wrong time is a pretty bad thing when you want to wake up on time :) | 23:22 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: not good comparison it's not about your laptop, but about OS which runs on your laptop | 23:22 |
| w00t | of course, at least it's going off at all - it didn't do that six months ago :) | 23:22 |
| ztane | i mean there are seriously more things fucked up in sailfish... | 23:23 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: if something there does not work for me, I don't care if there is a bug tracker or not. It is MY issue... As long as I can submit it back in whatever way it does not matter if the project has some bugtracker or not. | 23:23 |
| Venemo | w00t: at least the people testing it internally had a good excuse for not showing up at work :P | 23:23 |
| w00t | ztane: got a top three in mind? | 23:23 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: what you are saying is that you cannot fix bugs without a bugtracker. | 23:24 |
| ztane | seems that i can irc, and ssh, and use android software... | 23:24 |
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| fk_lx | phdeswer: I'm really against what you are saying - we don't have time to organize and make use of t_community, because we are working on stuff (HINT: that stuff could have been done partly by community) | 23:24 |
| w00t | ztane: top three as in top three problems | 23:24 |
| special | Venemo: I once accidentally caused the alarms to be impossible to disable.. | 23:24 |
| w00t | special: I still hate you for that | 23:24 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: I did not say that. I just disagree with needing some special infrastructure to enable you to work on things. | 23:24 |
| Eztran | special: oh, wow, that's a pretty wonderful bug. | 23:24 |
| Venemo | special: ooops | 23:24 |
| w00t | "yes, let's add a test alarm for 5am and forget about it" | 23:24 |
| w00t | *alarm goes off* | 23:24 |
| w00t | "no problem, I'll just switch it off" | 23:24 |
| ztane | usability is crap, wrecked from n9. | 23:25 |
| Yaniel | was it at least hardcoded? | 23:25 |
| w00t | I nearly threw it out the damn window | 23:25 |
| Venemo | ztane: please elaborate on that | 23:25 |
| w00t | eventually I woke up enough to yank the battery, and swear at special on IRC | 23:25 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: well, then why are using mobile phone, you don't need a mobile phone to contact your neighbour leaving 3 km from you, you can walk all the way on foot and then talk | 23:25 |
| fk_lx | s/leaving/living | 23:25 |
| AL13N_lizzy | w00t: i restructured the page: http://elinux.org/Jolla#Features_possibly_to_be_added_later_.28aka_TODO_list.29 | 23:25 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: properly managed bugtracker saves time! | 23:26 |
| ztane | no ux clues, counterintuitive, font rendering is bad, inconsistency in gestures | 23:26 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: I don't disagree it might help you. But a bugtracker will eat more of our time than it will save us. | 23:26 |
| w00t | ztane: do you have update1 yet? | 23:26 |
| AL13N_lizzy | CALL FOR HELP! if any of you here has some interesting ideas they want to work on! plz add yourself and idea on this wiki: http://elinux.org/Jolla#Features_possibly_to_be_added_later_.28aka_TODO_list.29 | 23:26 |
| ztane | i think so, laadunjärvi | 23:27 |
| w00t | AL13N_lizzy: thanks :) | 23:27 |
| AL13N_lizzy | there's also: http://elinux.org/Jolla#Interesting_native_apps_possibly_in_the_works | 23:27 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: you just put way to much faith in a bug tracker. And stats that might relate to bugtrackers... | 23:27 |
| Venemo | ztane: I think if you take the time to learn the gestures it could be pretty good | 23:27 |
| AL13N_lizzy | for apps | 23:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Do what Nokia did and have a bug tracker that's just ignored. | 23:27 |
| w00t | ztane: ok. the reason I ask is that font rendering changed a little there. | 23:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Then you don't have to worry over it. ;) | 23:27 |
| ztane | Venemo: shut up | 23:27 |
| w00t | ztane: take a look at /var/lib/environment/nemo (I think the path is) | 23:27 |
| w00t | ztane: there's a 50-jolla-ui.conf (or something like that) | 23:27 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: well if you are convinced that you get less than you put in, then I understand your point of view. I see things differently, and think setting such bug tracker would give you more gain than loss | 23:27 |
| ztane | the gesturees worked in n9 | 23:27 |
| ztane | not here | 23:28 |
| w00t | ztane: it has a bunch of QT_DF_* environment variables | 23:28 |
| faenil | ztane, which gestures are you having problems with? | 23:28 |
| w00t | ztane: if you read up on / try tweak those, you might be able to get something more to your liking | 23:28 |
| phdeswer | GeneralAntilles: fk_lx : That is exactly what we want to avoid. A bugtracker which is not used by us is worse than none. | 23:28 |
| ZogG_laptop | night | 23:28 |
| ztane | whoever decided if crosfadd is better than drag ought to be slapped | 23:28 |
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| fk_lx | phdeswer: why do you ex cathedra assume that it will be like that, give that thing a chance | 23:29 |
| w00t | fk_lx: past experience, even in this company | 23:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Eventually we'll print ironic tshirts to give away to community members contributing to the bug tracker. | 23:29 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: I am saying at this point in time that is the case. But if you ever find a bug and you need some pointers to fix it and where to get the code, submit a patch etc... you can just ask us here. | 23:29 |
| ztane | enough typing with jolla | 23:29 |
| vgrade | fk_lx: not sure I understand your point on t_community not being fully utilised | 23:30 |
| fk_lx | and please don't use argument - Nokia did that in the past, so it won't work this time | 23:30 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | GOD, I just noticed rhe chan still open on this client, read a random backscroll segemnt and see same silly discussion as on tmo, same mindset on Jolla side like "we don't want you on our lawn! do your own projects! if we are faster, too bad for you" | 23:30 |
| ztane | phdeswer: in fact | 23:30 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer51: rhe=? | 23:30 |
| ztane | phdeswer: even the fact that it is reported somewhere saves the time of us users | 23:30 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | same like 2 weeks and 2 monts and 2 years ago | 23:30 |
| ztane | now I get a bit of a "STFU" from jolla :( | 23:30 |
| phdeswer | ztane: as a user you are not the tech community fk_lx talks about. | 23:31 |
| phdeswer | I do not disagree that something to help you get more visibility would be bad. | 23:31 |
| phdeswer | We just need time to figure out what the best way is and have time to set things up. | 23:31 |
| phdeswer | Yelling now is not helping and I am trying to explain it can be much more productive at this time to talk to us. | 23:31 |
| ZogG_laptop | time is not your friend :\ | 23:31 |
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| Venemo | phdeswer: point taken! | 23:32 |
| faenil | ztane, which gestures are you having problems with? | 23:32 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: _we_ so only we in Jolla know what is the best way. Nope that is not co-creation with community (read post from Stskeeps blog) | 23:32 |
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| ZogG_laptop | i think DocScrutinizer51 told what can be done and what TMO can provide/community and as well yo ucan lead us to what you want from us | 23:32 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: I tell you to talk with us. That is not a one way communication. | 23:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | night to everyone | 23:32 |
| ztane | faenil: I do not have a problem with gestures. I have a problem with user experience | 23:32 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: I'm talking | 23:33 |
| faenil | <ztane> the gesturees worked in n9 | 23:33 |
| faenil | <ztane> not here | 23:33 |
| fk_lx | right now would say :-) | 23:33 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: And by getting to know you guys we could eventually also get you to help us when we know what kind of help we can get from you to set up things. | 23:33 |
| ztane | faenil: in n9 when you dragged left-right / right left the whole "app window" was moving | 23:33 |
| faenil | ztane, yes, different animation | 23:33 |
| ztane | now in sailfish someone decided that a crossfade is good. I had my doubts whe nI saw the vidoe... | 23:33 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: So if we ever set up a bugtracker you might be a good person to help us clean and sort bugreports? | 23:33 |
| ztane | now when i am using it ... it really sucks | 23:34 |
| ztane | and so did say everyone else who had hands on with the phone | 23:34 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: I could help you with that | 23:34 |
| ztane | it is like "WTF just happened?"?" | 23:34 |
| special | ztane: I was a bit conflicted at first; but one of the ideas behind it is that you can peek at what's behind your window. Covers, clock, status area. | 23:34 |
| ztane | same wtih many of the sailfish ui "innovations" | 23:34 |
| faenil | ztane, well yeah I understand that if you're expecting it to have n9 behaviour | 23:34 |
| ztane | special: yeah, you could do it with crossfade AND scroll | 23:34 |
| faenil | but if you try to reopen your mind :) | 23:34 |
| ztane | faenil: no | 23:34 |
| ztane | faenil: it is crap | 23:34 |
| ztane | seriously | 23:34 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: I am only asking you to give us time to work out how we can deal with your input. In the meantime we are here to answer questions and work things out until that is sorted | 23:35 |
| faenil | ztane, that's not really helping...nothing I can do | 23:35 |
| Aard | ztane: would combination of crossfade + moving be better? on n9 it's pretty annoying that you can only see a small part when swiping the window away | 23:35 |
| ztane | faenil: seriously, I am a buying consumer here | 23:35 |
| AL13N_lizzy | listen, there's 2 things here, it might be that tech community usability is easier to atm talk to devs on IRC, the fact remains that it would be useful to note bugs someplace (even by users, not only tech) so at least we can remeber; OTOH if devs would never look at this list... i donno what is best here | 23:35 |
| faenil | ztane, I bought it as well :) | 23:35 |
| ztane | if something is crap to me, it is | 23:35 |
| w00t | Aard: weren't you supposed to be a bit afk for a few days? ;) | 23:35 |
| Aard | w00t: I am | 23:35 |
| faenil | ztane, yes but since many other people love it, I'm just asking you to give it some time :) | 23:35 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Aard: imho no, crossfade is better | 23:35 |
| w00t | AL13N_lizzy: if there is a list, and it's useful, I guarentee you that it will be looked at | 23:35 |
| ztane | I will go back to android, happily, and not eat jolla crap. I want a good phone, preferably open and linux, not just something that ppl say "i should love" | 23:36 |
| special | AL13N_lizzy: I think that's something the community should take initiative on too | 23:36 |
| ztane | faenil: they don't | 23:36 |
| ztane | that is the problem | 23:36 |
| ztane | there is some ppl who see only the tech (ok nice cross fade) | 23:36 |
| ztane | but it will not be a consumer success, ever | 23:36 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: I of course understand things require time, but first I've heard that Jolla doesn't have time for that, because there is launch, then that they don't have time, because they are fixing bugs, then there will be an explanation that there is no time, because next product is comming, then .... and again and again | 23:36 |
| ztane | that is a big problem | 23:36 |
| AL13N_lizzy | there is one more thing on community, it sorta depends on who you want to get... | 23:36 |
| Eztran | ztane: are you seriously saying that a crossfade is a blocker on any kind of success? | 23:36 |
| ztane | Eztran: no, the attitude | 23:36 |
| ztane | Eztran: the sailfish ux is a disaster | 23:37 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: Well I understand your point. I am just asking you to work with us now on what we can until we can move on to the next point. | 23:37 |
| AL13N_lizzy | if there's a big official stated hype, you can get more people from all kinds ( which also makes it difficult to manage), but then you also get people who can just sort out bugs who are no devs at all | 23:37 |
| AL13N_lizzy | this is what i saw in Mageia | 23:37 |
| Aard | ztane: we have changed things in the past which turned out not to work when used, and we'll continue to change | 23:37 |
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| phdeswer | The bugtracker is a well known point and once we know how to deal with it we will give you an answer. | 23:37 |
| ztane | this crossfade thing for example, my friend complained in a handsdown demo 1 yr ago | 23:38 |
| AL13N_lizzy | phdeswer: the question is really... should community wait for that, or just go start on it's own... | 23:38 |
| special | AL13N_lizzy: please, go on your own | 23:38 |
| AL13N_lizzy | phdeswer: it seems some devs are for and others against | 23:38 |
| Aard | ztane: it might surprise you, but there are actually people who like it | 23:38 |
| phdeswer | AL13N_lizzy: If you feel the need is now and immediate I don't think we will stop you. | 23:38 |
| ztane | the sad thing is that the only thing that currently works well is the android support :D uit was the one that i was most skeptical about | 23:38 |
| AL13N_lizzy | ok, that settles things | 23:38 |
| phdeswer | And I am sure if you tell us, some of us will actually look at it if you do set something like that up | 23:39 |
| ztane | the problem is : | 23:39 |
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| ztane | I ordered my very first jolla phone to LIKE it | 23:39 |
| lpotter | what's crossfade? | 23:39 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: again.... 10 bugtrackers will pop up if you will keep repeating that | 23:39 |
| AL13N_lizzy | why is it that i'm speaking of this when i didn't even pre-order the jolla | 23:39 |
| * AL13N_lizzy sighs | 23:39 | |
| Venemo | lpotter: he talks about the animation that happens when you do the "push" gesture | 23:39 |
| ztane | I want jolla to succeed... however the problem is | 23:40 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: some things must be centralised, otherwise effort of syncing or telling which one is the right one will be a waste of time and effort | 23:40 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: I don't disagree. | 23:40 |
| ztane | as it is now, everything is too buggy, and there is *NO* direction whatsoever to whatever is the proper place to report bugs | 23:40 |
| phdeswer | I just cannot give you the answer you want now. As I am not the one to decide things. | 23:40 |
| lpotter | ahh. that's one of the things i like | 23:40 |
| w00t | ztane: if you, as a customer have a problem, please contact care | 23:40 |
| AL13N_lizzy | does anyone disagree with a kind of nickname list on elinux.org/Jolla to know who does what? | 23:40 |
| Eztran | ztane: you've probably noticed that this is the other discussion in the channel right now :) | 23:40 |
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| fk_lx | phdeswer: of course, no problem. But such discussion is needed. | 23:41 |
| AL13N_lizzy | like a list of nicknames that are jolla devs? | 23:41 |
| AL13N_lizzy | or is that not good? | 23:41 |
| jjaone | Hi all, one small Jolla device question.. | 23:41 |
| ztane | w00t: if I go to jolla.com I read "we do not want to hear any unsolicited ideas from you" :D | 23:41 |
| jjaone | Can the Jolla Backup made in Settings be transfered to PC (with USB-cable etc) before Resetting the phone? How & where is the backup in device? | 23:41 |
| AL13N_lizzy | haha yes, i liked that text alot | 23:41 |
| Venemo | AL13N_lizzy: whoever added my name to that page, thanks, it's awesome :) | 23:42 |
| AL13N_lizzy | it might have been me | 23:42 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: I agree. I am just saying that we know about it. And instead of just saying yes and throw a bugtracker out there, we first want to make sure we will do it in a way that works for both of us. | 23:42 |
| AL13N_lizzy | i can't remember | 23:42 |
| w00t | ztane: a bug report is not an idea | 23:42 |
| w00t | ztane: nor is feedback like "I don't like X" | 23:42 |
| AL13N_lizzy | unsolicited idea is: you should do X and i have patented that idea | 23:42 |
| fk_lx | phdeswer: I agree, but I prefer discussion about pros and cons, than ex cathedra saying that community bugtracker won't work for _sure_ which some of you guys, like w00t are repeating and repeating | 23:43 |
| special | fk_lx: nobody said that | 23:43 |
| w00t | fk_lx: you know what won't make it for sure? endlessly discussing it and never actually doing anything | 23:43 |
| AL13N_lizzy | w00t: that happens alot | 23:43 |
| ztane | w00t: ack | 23:43 |
| fk_lx | w00t: that's the point | 23:44 |
| AL13N_lizzy | though discussions are needed, i don't see why IRC conv with total strangers isn't good enough -) | 23:44 |
| ZogG_laptop | w00t: so you want us to do nothing and wait when we don't have any idea how much time it will take, till you call us in and LET US contribute? | 23:44 |
| ZogG_laptop | lol | 23:44 |
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| special | ZogG_laptop: you can contribute right now | 23:44 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: I just said that at the moment we cannot just throw something out in the hope it will work. | 23:44 |
| w00t | ZogG_laptop: no | 23:44 |
| w00t | as I've said a number of times now: if you want something to happen, do it | 23:44 |
| w00t | don't wait for us | 23:44 |
| Aard | jjaone: the directory .vault contains the backup. transfer the directory (ideally, if you have developer mode, zip it up before transferring) | 23:44 |
| w00t | show us the right way, and we'll follow | 23:44 |
| special | ZogG_laptop: go submit PRs, go create a bugtracker, go organize complaint and bug lists, anything you want *you can do* | 23:44 |
| w00t | if you want to wait for us, don't complain that we take a long time | 23:45 |
| fk_lx | w00t: great, but we don't have infrastructure - I don't have a server to run bugtracker for you | 23:45 |
| AL13N_lizzy | fk_lx: but there's free bugzilla's somewhere, right? | 23:45 |
| fk_lx | w00t: I can help on managing it, but I don't have infra behind me | 23:45 |
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| special | fk_lx: then maybe start with a wiki, or a mailing list | 23:45 |
| ZogG_laptop | w00t: you see i'm not good at english and self explanation i wrote rants about miscommuniation and problem with info and relation with Jolla when it was not even cool | 23:45 |
| special | and let it evolve | 23:45 |
| faenil | fk_lx, AL13N_lizzy ZogG_laptop Venemo ztane and who else | 23:45 |
| AL13N_lizzy | even i started on this elinux.org/Jolla thing | 23:45 |
| jjaone | Aard: thanks, I saw that .vault, but it doesn't seem to have the backups listed by name in there | 23:45 |
| ZogG_laptop | w00t: and i still didn't get any response | 23:45 |
| AL13N_lizzy | just to have some info in one place | 23:45 |
| Venemo | yes faenil? | 23:45 |
| faenil | do you think if community made a bugtracker, and each week got out the top5 bugs | 23:45 |
| Aard | jjaone: it's a git repository containing the data | 23:45 |
| faenil | and sent them to Jolla | 23:45 |
| faenil | Jolla wouldn't listen? | 23:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | any idea if anyone agred or disagreed with me | 23:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | and the funny thing — nothing changes | 23:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | so i DID | 23:46 |
| jjaone | Ah, git repo ok. | 23:46 |
| ztane | faenil: i think they would... | 23:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | and you didnt follow the lead | 23:46 |
| Aard | jjaone: which explains the 'better zip it up' -- it contains hard links you'd destroy if you take it via mtp (we're working on packing it up on device) | 23:46 |
| Venemo | :) | 23:46 |
| faenil | ztane, so, what are you (guys) waiting for :) | 23:46 |
| w00t | ZogG_laptop: what did you do? | 23:46 |
| AL13N_lizzy | special: this is the starting point: http://elinux.org/Jolla | 23:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | w00t: i wrote post with the certain points | 23:46 |
| AL13N_lizzy | if someone knows a good free bugtracker we can use, plz lemme know | 23:46 |
| ztane | faenil: i just came from a company party, and am drunk, tomorrow a working day, and yet another drinking party, not in shape to setup any bugtrackers :P | 23:47 |
| ZogG_laptop | all i got in reply was retweet nd some laughts from one worker | 23:47 |
| faenil | ztane, ahaha :D | 23:47 |
| w00t | ZogG_laptop: sorry, but i'm not sure how telling us how to do something and waiting for us to do it constitues doing something yourself? | 23:47 |
| Dima^ | it's nice to argue with drunk person.. | 23:47 |
| jjaone | Aard: ok, so if I zip the .vault , move it to PC (by SSH), Reset the phone, and copy it back.. do I have the backups shown in Settings UI? | 23:47 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Dima^: is it??? | 23:47 |
| fk_lx | faenil: ok, but let Jolla provide the infra and say this is community bugtracker, otherwise like I sad 10 bugtrackers will pop up, as everyone will be setting up bugtracker | 23:48 |
| fk_lx | s/sad/said | 23:48 |
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| faenil | fk_lx, 10 bugtrackers won't popup ;) | 23:48 |
| Dima^ | AL13N_lizzy: especially in IRC, when you cannot see the person. So you have to build bad image of the person :P | 23:48 |
| AL13N_lizzy | fk_lx: i sort of agree, but the problem is that it might take some time... so perhaps we should start, because don't they import/export these days? | 23:48 |
| special | fk_lx: we can't even get one to pop up ;) | 23:48 |
| faenil | fk_lx, not even one has popped up so far, why should 10 popul all at once | 23:48 |
| ZogG_laptop | w00t: yeah, people who does it themselves doing neo900 and it's going pretty well | 23:48 |
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| * faenil highfives special | 23:49 | |
| Dima^ | AL13N_lizzy: it's kind of adventure which leads to nowhere | 23:49 |
| Venemo | so, let's add a "jolla" category to the nemo bugtracker and let people post all the junk there | 23:49 |
| ZogG_laptop | w00t: as well as we proposed to create seaction at TMO with own domain | 23:49 |
| * lpotter wonders who would use a jolla specific bug tracker without jolla being actively involved | 23:49 | |
| AL13N_lizzy | Venemo: it should really be sailfishOS | 23:49 |
| AL13N_lizzy | not jolla | 23:49 |
| Aard | jjaone: yes | 23:49 |
| fk_lx | faenil, special: well even if one will pop up, then people will be waiting if few another will pop up etc. | 23:49 |
| faenil | fk_lx, ?? | 23:50 |
| Venemo | AL13N_lizzy: worksforme | 23:50 |
| ZogG_laptop | lpotter: i think community n900 updates can teach your a lot, bad you don't learn from history | 23:50 |
| fk_lx | faenil, special: no one would want to get involved in something if in a week another one will pop up and everyone will be on another one | 23:50 |
| faenil | fk_lx, yes but, *why* would someone else make another bug tracker? | 23:50 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Venemo: can you create it? and/or speak to people in charge if this is allowed (if needed)? | 23:50 |
| lpotter | ZogG_laptop: sorry I have moved on from n900 | 23:50 |
| jjaone | Aard: thanks, got to try.. had some update/install issues and the only way to fix seems to be start over ;) | 23:50 |
| fk_lx | faenil, special: like I've said some things have to be centralised, otherwise you end up, like it is nowaday with 10 community forums | 23:51 |
| faenil | fk_lx, there hasn't been even one so far, why do you think all at once bugtrackers will start coming out like mushrooms? | 23:51 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Venemo: we can then add the link to elinux.org/Jolla | 23:51 |
| Aard | jjaone: what kind of update/install issues? | 23:51 |
| faenil | fk_lx, community forum is very, very different | 23:51 |
| Venemo | AL13N_lizzy: I can't; and all the people who can are either on this channel or sleeping | 23:51 |
| special | fk_lx: and maybe it will be in time. We'll see. But it isn't today, so if you need something today, *go create it* | 23:51 |
| special | we'll follow you, you don't have to follow us | 23:51 |
| ZogG_laptop | w00t: as well with liited info and communicaton we don't even knwo what you want us to do, where you need us or if it be usefull. all info in YOUR hands | 23:51 |
| AL13N_lizzy | Venemo: the nemo people are on this channel too? | 23:51 |
| jjaone | I discussed them here earlier with stskeesp and others.. | 23:51 |
| fk_lx | special: I don't wont to create something if in a month you will come up with your own | 23:51 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, if there is a community bugtracker though we will have all bugs | 23:52 |
| faenil | ZogG_laptop, and we can work on them (we = NEMO) | 23:52 |
| Venemo | AL13N_lizzy: most of them yes, since Jolla is based on Nemo and so Jolla people contribute a LOT to Nemo | 23:52 |
| special | I've never seen a group of people so apparently enthusiastic about bug tracking | 23:52 |
| special | I always just wanted to get it out of the way and accomplish shit ;) | 23:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | lpotter: that's the point that people moving on fast. and time is enemy. and if you do not use all resources and help people would move from your platform. | 23:52 |
| fk_lx | special: so maybe let's use that enthusiasm! | 23:52 |
| Venemo | special: I'm not enthusiastic about bug tracking, just was dragged into this conversation :) | 23:52 |
| jjaone | seems that the jolla-email and jolla-email-settings OTA update went thru only partly (got msg: "Problem with store"), and I now have those two packages with different version numbers in the phone | 23:53 |
| AL13N_lizzy | faenil: would it be possible to ask to create a project on nemo bugtracker that is called Sailfish? so we can put our bugs there? | 23:53 |
| phdeswer | ZogG_laptop: my point earlier was you can easily ask us for non=obvious info already. And we are not here to tell you what to do. Linus does not ask people what to develop for the kernel either for example. | 23:53 |
| * lpotter wonders whats wrong with using the sailfish dev mailing list | 23:53 | |
| special | speaking of which | 23:53 |
| special | I'm going to go accomplish some shit. | 23:53 |
| lpotter | :) | 23:53 |
| Venemo | special: me too (literally) | 23:53 |
| Venemo | lol | 23:53 |
| w00t | special: let's go work on $super_secret_non_work_project | 23:53 |
| w00t | Venemo: TMI | 23:53 |
| Venemo | okay, not really but it was a good joke | 23:53 |
| AL13N_lizzy | lpotter: i've seen that after some time, items are forgotten on -devel list | 23:54 |
| Venemo | w00t: TMI=? | 23:54 |
| lpotter | and nothing gets forgotten about a bug tracker... | 23:54 |
| faenil | AL13N_lizzy, I don't like it that much, I would make another bugtracker and leave nemo one alone :D | 23:54 |
| faenil | but maybe I'm talking bs :P | 23:54 |
| special | faenil: to be honest, "alone" is a great word for the nemo bugtracker right now | 23:54 |
| yunta | ztane: jolla push is much better than n9 swipe. you can peek in jolla. transition doesn't matter. | 23:54 |
| faenil | special, o/ | 23:54 |
| w00t | Venemo: too much information ;) | 23:54 |
| ZogG_laptop | lpotter: maillist is for mail i'm involved in more than jolla and i have own job i can't read thousands of maillists | 23:55 |
| Venemo | w00t: was just kidding :P | 23:55 |
| fk_lx | special, phdeswer, w00t: nemo was more open in the past, there were bug triages, there is also something written about biweekly developer meetings etc. At some point you got rid of that, which in my opinion builds that wall/tower or however we can call it | 23:55 |
| *** FSCV has quit IRC | 23:55 | |
| ZogG_laptop | phdeswer: so if there are delays, you want me to ask from frist day i paid if there are delays till i get answer yes? :P | 23:55 |
| *** pvanhoof has quit IRC | 23:56 | |
| Aard | AL13N_lizzy: I'm filing issues I'm seeing (both here in irc and in devel mailinglist) in our internal bugzilla. it's not ideal, as you can't see it, but at least it won't be forgotten. and we've been discussing for some time already how to open bugzilla up -- the problem is opening it up without having a mess afterwards | 23:56 |
| phdeswer | ZogG_laptop: I meant developer /tech community questions :) | 23:56 |
| fk_lx | special, phdeswer, w00t: now it's more like Jolla people doing some stuff that we can watch, but not participate, as there is no roadmap, no TODOs on each on nemomobile subprojects etc. | 23:56 |
| lpotter | ZogG_laptop: so jolla has already provided somewhere to give input/contributions/whatever... | 23:56 |
| fk_lx | special: phdeswer, w00t: and assuming that all comunication will go through IRC is wrong assumption | 23:56 |
| lpotter | fk_lx: maybe there is no roadmap | 23:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | phdeswer: community question? on IRC? it's nice but you need to have forum or something and it was told before. | 23:57 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: well not saying everything has to go through irc. But blaming Jolla for changes in nemo processes is not exactly fair | 23:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | lpotter: we both know what we mean | 23:57 |
| phdeswer | We follow you guys on tmo also | 23:57 |
| fk_lx | special: phdeswer, w00t: I'm not blaming anyone, just showing, what are the barriers | 23:58 |
| lpotter | ZogG_laptop: miling lits are better than forums | 23:58 |
| lpotter | mailing list | 23:58 |
| ZogG_laptop | lpotter: you could make it meetings under building of your office and blame us not comming as well. we do want to help. but we need tools and co-work from both sides | 23:58 |
| jjaone | Aard: here is what "pkcon get-packages | grep "jolla-email" gives: [nemo@localhost ~]$ pkcon get-packages | grep " jolla-email" | 23:58 |
| jjaone | Installed jolla-email-0.0.71-10.16.1.jolla.armv7hl | 23:58 |
| jjaone | Available jolla-email-all-translations-0.0.1-10.1.1.jolla.noarch | 23:58 |
| jjaone | Installed jolla-email-all-translations-pack-0.0.1-10.1.2.jolla.noarch | 23:58 |
| jjaone | Available jolla-email-all-translations-pack-0.0.1-10.1.1.jolla.noarch | 23:58 |
| jjaone | Installed jolla-email-settings-0.0.70-10.15.1.jolla.armv7hl | 23:58 |
| jjaone | Available jolla-email-settings-0.0.71-10.16.1.jolla.armv7hl | 23:58 |
| ZogG_laptop | lpotter: forum and maillist is better than maillist | 23:59 |
| ZogG_laptop | i can play that stupid game as well | 23:59 |
| lpotter | no, forums are a pain | 23:59 |
| ZogG_laptop | no maillist are pain | 23:59 |
| fk_lx | special, phdeswer, w00t: don't complain that no one is interested in helping you, if you don't openly communicate. I don't want Nemo to be second Tizen | 23:59 |
| jjaone | Aard: see how Installed jolla-email and jolla-email-settings are at different version numbers | 23:59 |
| phdeswer | fk_lx: I understand. But you need to understand we are individuals here and we cannot just do as we please because we cannot make decisions for the whole company. | 23:59 |
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