| *** ahjolinna_ is now known as ahjolinna | 01:45 | |
| *** zbenjamin is now known as Guest66641 | 02:26 | |
| *** zbenjamin_ is now known as zbenjamin | 02:26 | |
| alistair235[m] | Turns out, it's really easy! Running Android 4.9 kernel with Sailfish X now | 04:12 |
|---|---|---|
| *** frinring_ is now known as frinring | 08:12 | |
| r0kk3rz | which device? | 08:35 |
| tortoisedoc | martyone_ : is there somewhere documentation on how to use sb2-config-gcc-toolchain ? | 09:10 |
| martyone_ | tortoisedoc: this is the only documentation on sb2 that I am aware of www.merproject.org/~lbt/SB2_internals_1st_ed_20120425.pdf + source code | 09:12 |
| tortoisedoc | martyone_ : thanks, I have noticed a weird behaviour on gcc, when listing include paths | 09:12 |
| tortoisedoc | echo | gcc -E -Wp,-v - | 09:13 |
| tortoisedoc | reveals full-path directories | 09:13 |
| tortoisedoc | as a consequence of that, my clang build cannot locate c++ headers properly (of the gcc 4.9.4) | 09:13 |
| tortoisedoc | (this in sb2 btw both in mer as well as vbox vm) | 09:13 |
| martyone_ | tortoisedoc: try to explain more what is the issue with the paths | 09:19 |
| tortoisedoc | martyone_ : I mean absolute (i.e. non-mapped) paths are listed by the echo | gcc -E -Wp,-v - | 09:20 |
| tortoisedoc | https://pastebin.com/3j9KNbb0 | 09:21 |
| tortoisedoc | for example in a clean target (on mer platform sdk) | 09:21 |
| tortoisedoc | gcc constructs the paths by default from the location of the gcc exe (from what I have seen up to now); the command line used to launch the gcc by sb2 refers to the absolute non-chrooted path in argv0 | 09:22 |
| tortoisedoc | (hence the command above constructs the paths relative to the non-mapped (chrooted) paths) | 09:25 |
| martyone_ | but the paths are accessible both inside and outside of sb2 session | 09:25 |
| tortoisedoc | oho | 09:26 |
| tortoisedoc | interesting | 09:26 |
| tortoisedoc | clang is not happy tho | 09:26 |
| tortoisedoc | martyone_ do you know if this "path exposure" is intentional? | 09:29 |
| tortoisedoc | perhaps the paths in question are accessible from bash but not other gates (stat's over all) | 09:31 |
| martyone_ | tortoisedoc: do you mean that it appears as such in the gcc output or that the paths are accessible? | 09:32 |
| martyone_ | the second is intentional afaik | 09:32 |
| tortoisedoc | that they appear in the gcc output :) | 09:32 |
| martyone_ | that I cannot tell, but given the second it should not be an issue | 09:33 |
| temp_duckz | hi, I was reading the latest blog post and it feels like jolla is isolating itself more and more from its community | 11:20 |
| temp_duckz | it kind of feels like there is a lot of internal discord at jolla to me | 11:21 |
| *** albertux1 is now known as albertux | 11:31 | |
| r0kk3rz | what do you mean? | 11:41 |
| temp_duckz | r0kk3rz: they keep on pulling out features no one is asking for and they just ignore all and every request, plus there's not even James around anymore | 11:42 |
| r0kk3rz | james is still around i think | 11:46 |
| r0kk3rz | and the features are for actual customers, like russia | 11:46 |
| Smar | someone should just give jolla infinite resources | 11:47 |
| Smar | it would be easier to do everything | 11:47 |
| temp_duckz | the blog post is from James, but I haven't seen him around in the comments | 11:47 |
| Smar | and zillion versions for each user | 11:47 |
| r0kk3rz | not quite infinite, but the russian moneys has meant they expanded the team not that long ago | 11:47 |
| temp_duckz | r0kk3rz: what do you mean "actual customers"? are commenters on the blog (including myself) not actual customers? | 11:48 |
| r0kk3rz | no | 11:48 |
| temp_duckz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer | 11:51 |
| temp_duckz | it could be my English is failing me, or maybe you could expand on that "no"? | 11:51 |
| r0kk3rz | jollas actual customers are companies, like OMP and Jalasoft | 11:51 |
| temp_duckz | never heard | 11:52 |
| temp_duckz | r0kk3rz: are you from jolla btw? | 11:52 |
| r0kk3rz | no | 11:52 |
| r0kk3rz | its really not that complicated, when 99% of your revenue comes from other businesses, you prioritise their interests first | 11:54 |
| temp_duckz | so let's say I second this idea of wanting some voip support in sfos, and let's say I'm not ditching my jolla phone: should I get in touch with OMP and Jalasoft then? | 11:54 |
| r0kk3rz | no, why would they want to talk to you? | 11:55 |
| temp_duckz | no idea, I'm just trying to figure out where certain issues should be raised | 11:56 |
| r0kk3rz | the usual place | 11:56 |
| r0kk3rz | tjc | 11:56 |
| r0kk3rz | but, if you're a jphone owner, then you've already got quite a bit of support out of Jolla already | 11:57 |
| temp_duckz | I mean, people have been asking for better bluetooth support, voip, gpg in email, paid apps in the store etc for years now, on tjc, blog, irc, diaspora | 11:57 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah, so? | 11:57 |
| r0kk3rz | nobody said you get to dictate what jolla works on | 11:58 |
| temp_duckz | instead we got a new (and ugly, imho) pull down menu, which I've never seen any request for | 11:58 |
| temp_duckz | so there's clearly a disconnect there, at least from my point of view | 11:58 |
| r0kk3rz | the people who do get to dictate, are the ones paying jolla to make a product for them | 11:59 |
| temp_duckz | lol dictate? I mean, if I'm writing a program and my users ask for feature X and it's a popular request, then I try to do feature X | 12:00 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah, but its ultimately your choice | 12:00 |
| temp_duckz | it sounds like you're trying to say Jolla's community's always been an illusion | 12:01 |
| r0kk3rz | how so? | 12:01 |
| temp_duckz | like yes yes, knock yourself out posting stuff on tjc and blog and w/e, we're just not doing feature X because it's ultimately our choice | 12:01 |
| r0kk3rz | there are simply competing interests at play, and as per usual the one with the most money wins | 12:01 |
| r0kk3rz | tjc has always been that way | 12:02 |
| r0kk3rz | there have been high profile items on there from the very beginning | 12:02 |
| temp_duckz | yep, routinely ignored | 12:02 |
| temp_duckz | I mean, I'm not the only one, if you go through the blog's comments people are wondering what the devs are working on | 12:03 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah, the last roadmap wasnt that great, and now most of the work is customer focussed and probably under NDA | 12:06 |
| temp_duckz | oh right, the roadmap for the roadmap joke :D | 12:07 |
| temp_duckz | most of the work is customer focussed <-- I can't even start describing how disgusted I feel - so much for the open, inclusive, we-are-unlike BS then | 12:09 |
| temp_duckz | users were never considered customers in the first place | 12:09 |
| temp_duckz | the blog I-speak-but-I-don't-listen, even the store's "broken" commenting system... it all clicks in place in hindsight | 12:12 |
| temp_duckz | attitude* | 12:12 |
| r0kk3rz | orginally, when jolla made devices, sure people like you were customers | 12:18 |
| r0kk3rz | but they shifted to a b2b model some time ago | 12:18 |
| temp_duckz | it sounds very childish... like as if you said hey from today on I'm the Eiffel Tower! and you expect that to really happen | 12:19 |
| temp_duckz | the truth is you're still human and jolla still develops sfos | 12:19 |
| r0kk3rz | imo, i remember a couple of years ago when jolla ran out of investors and pissed off all their developers | 12:21 |
| r0kk3rz | everything since then is basically gravy | 12:21 |
| temp_duckz | as such they should take care of implementing the features that are being requested, and as yourself recognised there *are* some high-profile requests on tjc | 12:21 |
| r0kk3rz | i dont begrudge them for focussing on the people paying their bills | 12:21 |
| temp_duckz | it just sounds like there's some "private club tjc" somewhere where those "actual customers" ask for what they want and tjc is just left there | 12:23 |
| r0kk3rz | yes, its called private negotiations, you tend to have them when conducting some business arrangement | 12:24 |
| r0kk3rz | if could get in on that, if you had a few millions to make a sailfish product | 12:25 |
| r0kk3rz | *you | 12:25 |
| temp_duckz | so what's the point of having the public tjc still around? or even comments in the blog and in the app store? see what I mean when I say it's all an illusion? | 12:25 |
| r0kk3rz | idk, they probably forgot to turn it off | 12:26 |
| r0kk3rz | so i assume just intertia | 12:26 |
| temp_duckz | what can I say, if I'm just a non-customer that matters literally nothing to them then maybe my idea of going lineageos is not that bad | 12:28 |
| temp_duckz | it feels like I've been made a fool of, waiting for voip support in the next update when everyone else knew there would be no voip ever | 12:30 |
| r0kk3rz | certainly i wouldnt be holding my breath for voip | 13:03 |
| r0kk3rz | i expect we would see VoLTE and VoWifi before | 13:03 |
| temp_duckz | r0kk3rz: what would the advantage be over xmpp's voice calls? | 14:28 |
| r0kk3rz | they work with your carrier | 14:29 |
| temp_duckz | ah right, so it's still a call to some phone number | 14:30 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah | 14:31 |
| r0kk3rz | those features are quite important in developing countries, because they went straight to 4g only networks | 14:31 |
| temp_duckz | yeah well if that's who they want to sell to then go ahead, I certainly won't try to stop them | 14:32 |
| temp_duckz | it would just be more fair if they bothered enough to announce that, so people are not kept in this constant waiting process | 14:33 |
| temp_duckz | but hey, glad I found out, better late than never I guess | 14:33 |
| abranson | temp_duckz: don't be too down on tjc - yes there are a lot of high profile issues that haven't been tackled yet, but plenty of problems do get solved through it. there's always a list of all tjc issues solved in every release. | 14:34 |
| temp_duckz | abranson: I wonder if it's not the same features that also happen to be requested by those "actual customers" that r0kk3rz was talking about | 14:35 |
| abranson | sometimes there's overlap, but have a look at the last list: https://together.jolla.com/question/195734/release-notes-301-sipoonkorpi/#195734-tjc-issues-reported-by-the-community-and-fixed-in-this-update | 14:36 |
| abranson | some very specific options there | 14:36 |
| abranson | and whatever you think about the responsiveness, it's a lot more engagement than you get from the bigger players on the mobile scene. | 14:37 |
| r0kk3rz | bugs and cves arent feature requests | 14:37 |
| r0kk3rz | naturally jolla should be somewhat responsive to bugs | 14:37 |
| abranson | ok, but tjc is far from dead | 14:37 |
| temp_duckz | bug-stalled-pulley-in-all-apps, xperia-x-white-led-stuck-on-after-charging, bug-switching-ambience-triggers-constant-cpu-usage-on-voicecall-ui-process, bug-to-long-text-in-top-menu... it's all bugfixing basically | 14:38 |
| abranson | feature requests just need a lot more planning and resources to undertake | 14:38 |
| temp_duckz | can't see how anyone including Jalalalala wouldn't want those | 14:38 |
| abranson | specific bugs like that are unlikely to be reported exactly by both | 14:39 |
| abranson | also on many you can see the interactions with the devs | 14:39 |
| temp_duckz | abranson: if both jolla and lineageos will treat me as a worthless number in their stats then I'd rather go with lineage, at least I don't have to beg for proper xmpp support, offline maps and japanese input | 14:39 |
| r0kk3rz | whats wrong with pure maps? | 14:40 |
| r0kk3rz | its betterer than jolla-maps ever was | 14:40 |
| temp_duckz | never heard of that one, I used to use modrana and jolla just broke it | 14:41 |
| abranson | temp_duckz: I don't see how you can seriously equate jolla and lineage tbh | 14:41 |
| abranson | lots of feature requests from tjc were on the sailfish3 upcoming feature lists | 14:41 |
| abranson | of course sailors are aware of what people want. lots of them are on these irc channels | 14:41 |
| temp_duckz | and no, I'm not going to enable openrepos | 14:42 |
| temp_duckz | abranson: I'm not equating them at all in fact | 14:42 |
| abranson | but there's a world of difference between large US companies with billions of dollars and thousands of devs sloshing around, and a small company like jolla. | 14:42 |
| temp_duckz | yeah I'm sure that *not* breaking modrana was too expensive | 14:43 |
| abranson | and those large companies will take you up and make their money from you however they like, and downstreams like lineage don't have a lot of say in that | 14:43 |
| r0kk3rz | its up to m4rtink to fix his app | 14:44 |
| leszek | temp_duckz: no one breaks software on purpose | 14:44 |
| temp_duckz | especially considering the billions of apps in the jolla store and no early access to the updates, there's no way they could've seen that coming right? | 14:44 |
| abranson | it'd be very expensive to support every previously unsupported api just because someone uses it. not to mention how messy that would end up. | 14:44 |
| leszek | temp_duckz: shit happens and nope I don't expect Jolla to fix bugs in my apps :P | 14:44 |
| temp_duckz | guys I had this discussion several times and I'm tired of it, we just lost offline maps and there are no other alternatives | 14:45 |
| temp_duckz | android can afford to do that because for every offline maps app they break there are 10 new ones popping up, jolla can't afford to do it because even their official maps app is borderline unusable | 14:46 |
| temp_duckz | want to break modrana? fine, fix your maps app and no one would complain | 14:48 |
| abranson | temp_duckz: osm scout is worth a try. | 14:58 |
| abranson | that sits behind pure maps, providing offline maps and routing | 14:59 |
| temp_duckz | abranson: yeah sorry that's the component that broke, not modrana... I keep on saying modrana and create confusion, my bad | 15:02 |
| temp_duckz | see the comments to it in the jolla store | 15:02 |
| temp_duckz | or even this https://mondiaspora.net/posts/f5feb9e060c80136c40575c1596895b8 | 15:04 |
| abranson | temp_duckz: ah yes, still ongoing that i'm afraid. | 15:13 |
| temp_duckz | no problem, I gave up at this point | 15:14 |
| abranson | one addition detail - blessing a component in the harbour is a long term commitment to supporting it. sometimes even longer than the upstream devs do. it's not done lightly. | 15:14 |
| temp_duckz | next salary /me gets a new phone ;) | 15:14 |
| abranson | that stuff will come eventually | 15:14 |
| abranson | enjoy your new phone! | 15:15 |
| temp_duckz | I'm resharing this conversation btw, at least the first part I discussed with r0kk3rz (I'll redact your nickname) | 15:15 |
| temp_duckz | abranson: lol sure, not that I'm expecting much from an android phone but hey, thanks god I've got a monster laptop running gentoo | 15:41 |
| abranson | temp_duckz: maybe when that's getting old and/or annoying, sailfish will be further along. it's definitely picking up the pace this last year or so | 15:42 |
| temp_duckz | all I ask is really gps, email with pgp, voice calls (gsm and xmpp-like), sms | 15:42 |
| temp_duckz | japanese input for sms/xmpp/line | 15:42 |
| temp_duckz | yep I'll keep an eye on the blog, I tend to keep phones for ~4 years usually, so there's plenty of time for improvements | 15:43 |
| abranson | from what I heard from someone on the telegram channel, VoLTE uses a lot of SIP-like functionality, so maybe that'll drop out of that | 15:43 |
| abranson | maybe get something you can port later ;) | 15:43 |
| abranson | there's been a lot of work in the community on email gpg support. that's quite exciting | 15:43 |
| abranson | i'm surprised there's no japanese input though. didn't know that wasn't there. | 15:44 |
| Marzanna | Does anyone know whether built-in VPN client supports ipv6? | 16:07 |
| r0kk3rz | it should do | 16:07 |
| Marzanna | Do I need to enable it somehow? | 16:21 |
| rinigus | temp_duckz: osm scout server is pulled from store due to https://github.com/sailfishos/sdk-harbour-rpmvalidator/issues/102 | 16:40 |
| rinigus | also pure maps is not in store due to inability to use qtlocation. qt5.9 update will probably bring qtlocation as a possibility, but, as far as I know from corresponding PR request in mer git, this will be without mapbox gl component due to the outdated gcc version in mer | 16:42 |
| mal | rinigus: which gcc does mapbox gl need? | 16:45 |
| temp_duckz | rinigus: I know, that's the same link I put 7 months ago in my diaspora post (see my link above) | 16:47 |
| temp_duckz | about pure maps, I don't know if it looks better than modrana or not, but it's fine, that's not the point - osmscout is gone and offline maps with it | 16:48 |
| rinigus | mal: good question. I am using gcc6. maybe something lower can handle it too | 16:51 |
| rinigus | temp_duckz: good, I didn't realize that link. let's see what will jolla figure out regarding systemd activation, that was in their plans | 16:52 |
| rinigus | mal: as far as I remember, c++14 was needed. from gcc page, looks like gcc 4.9 or 5 should do, but I haven't tested that | 16:54 |
| mal | rinigus: ok, mer-core will get 4.9 soon(tm), the PR is there already | 16:54 |
| rinigus | mal: good to know, that may allow them to add mapbox as well | 17:22 |
| alistair235[m] | martyone_: On the Xperia XA2 | 17:36 |
| alistair235[m] | r0kk3rz: On the Xperia XA2 | 17:36 |
| r0kk3rz[m] | Oh nice | 17:55 |
| alistair235[m] | Yeah, I want to try a mainline kernel as well | 17:56 |
| alistair235[m] | But that will require more work | 17:56 |
| Guest91658 | hey r0kk3rz, figured it out with the browser, reinstalled xulrunner and its working fine now | 17:57 |
| *** Guest91658 is now known as storm- | 17:57 | |
| r0kk3rz[m] | Wtf. . | 18:04 |
| *** svartoyg is now known as svartoyg_afk | 19:43 | |
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