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| tortoisedoc | bah | 05:41 |
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| tortoisedoc | dum dum | 07:43 |
| chem|st_ | dam dam | 07:43 |
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| tortoisedoc | this sfos community meeting being postponed again and again is a bit frustrating :| but I guess its mandatory | 07:43 |
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| tbr | IMO it's a sign of how priorities are set | 07:44 |
| tbr | I expect to see some sort of flashy sales pitch for slush, in their desperate hope to land a device deal that will actually ship. Too bad everything else had to be put on hold for that. | 07:49 |
| chriadam | out of interest, what were the topics? | 07:53 |
| chriadam | I cannot read the TJC post about it, every time I try my mind can't seem to grasp which posts are the recent ones / which topics are valid and current | 07:54 |
| chriadam | (I don't understand why we use TJC for that at all, tbh, it should be done 100% via mailinglist in my personal opinion) | 07:54 |
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| tortoisedoc | tbr : intex not shipping? | 07:56 |
| tortoisedoc | (2016?) | 07:56 |
| tbr | tortoisedoc: they are not shipping at the moment. it was delayed well into 2016 | 07:56 |
| tortoisedoc | chriadam : well there is the xdg issue; plus the discussion about openness of mer / sfos | 07:56 |
| tortoisedoc | tbr : q1 2016 to my knowledge? delayed more? | 07:57 |
| tbr | tortoisedoc: q1 can mean end of march, that's well into 2016 | 07:57 |
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| tortoisedoc | tbr : better than q2 :P | 07:57 |
| tbr | better than never | 07:58 |
| tortoisedoc | indeed | 07:58 |
| tortoisedoc | look at how long it took for tizen to take off the ground | 07:58 |
| tbr | hint: tablet was promised 2015Q2, it's Q4 | 07:58 |
| tbr | and still no sign of tablets | 07:58 |
| tortoisedoc | let's hope sfos does not need to linger THAT long | 07:58 |
| * tortoisedoc argh | 07:58 | |
| tortoisedoc | lets not turn the knife in the wound, shall we | 07:58 |
| tortoisedoc | we were wondering with a pair of friends yesterday about why android is such a big success | 07:59 |
| * Yaniel attaches the knife to a drill | 07:59 | |
| tbr | hey, I'm the one who didn't throw more money at them and now gets penalized for it. (apparently 32GB has a production problem) | 07:59 |
| * tortoisedoc turns electricity off | 07:59 | |
| * tbr gets the coarse rock salt | 07:59 | |
| Yaniel | it's a mechanical drill | 07:59 |
| * tortoisedoc stabs Yaniel with the knife | 08:00 | |
| tortoisedoc | eat your own dog f00d :P | 08:00 |
| chriadam | tortoisedoc: were there concrete discussion points about the openness of mer/sfos? a few very specific steps have been taken by Jolla recently (e.g., the migration of our hodgepodge of repos into git.merproject.org, which makes it easier to open up new repositories in the future, all in the one, canonical place). | 08:00 |
| tortoisedoc | git.merproject.org is looking very promising! | 08:00 |
| tortoisedoc | chriadam : not that I know; personally, I am ok with how things are now (as in I have had no need to have additional components open sourced), but that's only my own 2c | 08:01 |
| tortoisedoc | but of course, the more openness is better | 08:02 |
| tbr | chriadam: from my point of view, too little, far too late | 08:03 |
| tortoisedoc | tbr : dont say that that brings back bad memories :P | 08:03 |
| chriadam | tbr: I'm not arguing with you, but we have to work with how things are not how we wished they would be. | 08:03 |
| tbr | chriadam: yes, and you have to work with te results of how things became due to your business limitations. it's a double edged sword. | 08:05 |
| chriadam | tortoisedoc: if someone could collect a concrete set of discussion and action points for us to cover in the community meeting, and mail them to me, I will push internally to try to ensure that the community meeting goes ahead next week, and that it has a clear agenda, and that the right people are informed of it. | 08:05 |
| * tbr has seen many good community people leave | 08:06 | |
| tortoisedoc | chriadam : I believe the action points listed there are all there is atm | 08:06 |
| tortoisedoc | chriadam : thanks for the support tho, appreciated :) | 08:06 |
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| tbr | tortoisedoc: IMO there are more bases to cover, I've said more than once that jolla shouldn't rely on the community bringing their topics to the table for them, but proactively bring things up. which rarely if ever happens. | 08:07 |
| tortoisedoc | is kraken ever online here? | 08:07 |
| tortoisedoc | tbr : right, that's definitely heavily subjective of priorities tho | 08:07 |
| tbr | it's also fun to watch how this forces people to make jolla's point and then be stone walled over it during the meeting | 08:08 |
| tortoisedoc | lol | 08:08 |
| tortoisedoc | thats called being in a nice place / between a fist and a wall :P | 08:08 |
| tbr | in my opinion "the community" is a mere afterthought, for almost 2 years now. Priority one is the rat race to find some company to drop loads of cash on jolla. | 08:09 |
| tbr | it shows | 08:09 |
| tortoisedoc | cant blame jolla for wanting to stay alive | 08:09 |
| djselbeck | yeah but the whole open thing seems like a lie | 08:10 |
| tbr | can blame them for sacrificing their community over it though | 08:10 |
| tbr | because it is a lie | 08:10 |
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| tortoisedoc | the cake is a lie :P | 08:10 |
| tortoisedoc | not the community ;) | 08:10 |
| tbr | it's open as long as it happens to fit in the current direction of finding a corporate customer | 08:10 |
| tortoisedoc | rather than a lie i'd more see it as a tool | 08:10 |
| tortoisedoc | but i do not see any problem in there | 08:11 |
| tortoisedoc | in the end it comes down to each individual community member how much he / she wants to involve | 08:11 |
| tortoisedoc | its a perfect system | 08:11 |
| tortoisedoc | :) | 08:11 |
| tbr | yeah and then being subjected to personal threats by jolla employees, explicitly leveraging their jolla employment | 08:11 |
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| chriadam | Wait what? | 08:12 |
| chriadam | actually, this probably isn't the appropriate channel for this - if you have such an allegation, you should take it to iekku I think. | 08:12 |
| tbr | chriadam: I've dropped my active involvement in the jolla community immediately. I do not see any reason to endorse such a company, especially if the individual refuses to acknowledge it and just handwaves over misunderstandings. | 08:13 |
| tortoisedoc | tbr : I agree with chriadam | 08:14 |
| tbr | tortoisedoc: it was a historic reference | 08:14 |
| iekku | who what? | 08:14 |
| tbr | I stipulated this repeatedly with jolla employees and was stonewalled | 08:14 |
| chriadam | tbr: that is entirely your right and your prerogative. I was referring to the "personal threats" issue - if any Jolla employee made any such threat, that would be a serious issue which we need to investigate and handle internally. And iekku I believe is the right contact person to start such a process (correct me if I'm wrong about that) | 08:15 |
| tbr | now they can, excuse my french, go take a hike | 08:15 |
| iekku | this sounds really serious indeed | 08:15 |
| tortoisedoc | tbr : stonewalling is very well different from a personal thread, | 08:15 |
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| tbr | chriadam: I do not see any reason to even attempt that, after seeing how the last such matter was very effectively stonewalled and deflected | 08:15 |
| tortoisedoc | I suggest you clarify | 08:15 |
| tbr | tortoisedoc: personal threats were made. my accusations were stonewalled | 08:16 |
| chriadam | the issue of "Jolla is not engaging with the community enough" or "these are the ways which Jolla could improve its community engagement" is a separate issue which I was not referring to, above. I agree that we do need to improve our community engagement, but that's a separate topic. | 08:16 |
| iekku | tbr, would you mind to tell me more, in here or in private | 08:16 |
| tortoisedoc | tbr : personal threats are material for lawyers; stonewalling is a byproduct of this internet | 08:16 |
| tbr | iekku: only if this is not going to go the way of the dodo, just like when there was an issue with fklx. That was also shushed up. Sure there were other factors that make this different, but the "OMG we can't let this affect business" aspect was very clear. | 08:17 |
| iekku | tbr, we did a lot regarding to that, as a human beings and as a company. | 08:19 |
| tortoisedoc | fklx being the polish guy? | 08:21 |
| iekku | yes | 08:21 |
| tortoisedoc | thanks :) | 08:21 |
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| iekku | tbr, i can do only my best, but can't promise anything on behalf of other persons or on behalf of jolla. but without knowing what you are actually talking, it's hard to do anything | 08:24 |
| tortoisedoc | tbr I can wow for iekku she tries her best :) | 08:25 |
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| iekku | we have saying in finland: tie helvettiin on katettu hyvill aikomuksilla = road to hell has been made out of good intention | 08:28 |
| iekku | i hope this isn't the case | 08:28 |
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| tbr | tortoisedoc: I know iekku for years and trust her as an individual. I do not trust jolla the company. | 08:29 |
| tortoisedoc | ah ok :) | 08:29 |
| iekku | tbr, thank you for your trust | 08:30 |
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| King_DuckZ | hello | 08:31 |
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| daitheflu | morning ! | 09:37 |
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| djselbeck | moin moin | 09:41 |
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| King_DuckZ | hey all | 10:07 |
| King_DuckZ | I'm not sure I proposed this yet, but I worked on this project https://bitbucket.org/King_DuckZ/duckscraper in order to write a sf client for http://romajidesu.com/ | 10:09 |
| King_DuckZ | I'm not really into writing sf apps tbh, so is anybody interested in continuing my work from there? | 10:10 |
| King_DuckZ | I'll implement whatever missing feature is needed in the scraper | 10:10 |
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| chem|st | tbr: sad but so true... many feel disencouraged | 11:04 |
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| situ | rainemak: What branch from https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/gecko-dev/branches are you using with latest version of Sailfish ? | 11:45 |
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| rainemak | situ, hi | 12:23 |
| situ | rainemak: Hey | 12:24 |
| rainemak | situ, we're working on nemo_embedlite_38 with Gecko 38 ... but latest Gecko 31 is in nemo_embedlite_31 | 12:24 |
| situ | rainemak: Cool, thanks! | 12:24 |
| situ | rainemak: I am having issues cloning from git.merproject.org so I guess I can just use GitHub for now ? | 12:25 |
| rainemak | situ, all related repos contain also nemo_embedlite_38 branches | 12:25 |
| rainemak | situ, what kind of issue you have with git.merproject.org? ssh keys are set etc. | 12:26 |
| situ | rainemak: I am using obs https://build.merproject.org/package/show/home:siteshwar:branches:nemo:devel:mw/xulrunner-qt5 | 12:26 |
| rainemak | situ, try with ssh url | 12:27 |
| situ | rainemak: Tried and failed. | 12:27 |
| rainemak | ok | 12:27 |
| situ | Same issue. | 12:27 |
| rainemak | maybe lbt or Stskeeps could help | 12:28 |
| situ | I would just use github for now. | 12:29 |
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| tortoisedoc | King_DuckZ : what is duckscraper for? | 13:19 |
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| Baumling | Hello there | 14:38 |
| Baumling | When i can buy the tablet? | 14:38 |
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| Yaniel | shop.jolla.com -- if the webshop currently has any in stock | 14:41 |
| Yaniel | but prepare to wait for quite a while | 14:41 |
| Baumling | Can you sell it please on X-Mas | 14:41 |
| tbr | or forever | 14:41 |
| tbr | I seriously doubt an order placed now would be delivered before 2016 | 14:42 |
| zGrr | Baumling: yo're asking very difficult question... | 14:42 |
| Yaniel | Baumling: not even all of the first preorder wave on indiegogo has been shipped yet | 14:42 |
| tbr | not even all as in "maybe 200 out of several thousand" | 14:42 |
| Yaniel | and I have no idea how many more than those maybe 200 have been manufactured yet | 14:43 |
| Yaniel | (there have apparently been difficulties on that end) | 14:43 |
| tbr | their ambitious estimate was to ship the last devices ordered by the end of the year | 14:43 |
| Baumling | Where can i preorder? pls with link | 14:43 |
| tbr | I do not have any reason to believe14:41:27< Yaniel> shop.jolla.com -- if the webshop currently has any in stock | 14:44 |
| eugenio | the tablet can't be preordered anymore | 14:44 |
| tbr | I do not have any reason to believe, that they will be able to keep their schedule | 14:44 |
| Baumling | :( | 14:44 |
| tbr | once more devices start shipping, look for used ones on ebay | 14:44 |
| tbr | I suspect many will end up there, maybe even unused | 14:44 |
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| zGrr | http://shop.yolla.com/ - 403 Error - Forbidden | 14:45 |
| ArtVandalae | *jolla | 14:45 |
| Baumling | Why unused? | 14:45 |
| Baumling | I ♥ Jolla | 14:48 |
| King_DuckZ | tortoisedoc: scraping html in c++, also I was working on some scripting-like feature so you could fetch a web page once and run multiple queries on it, and have it in some user-defined format, not sure where I left tho | 14:51 |
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| zGrr | everyone loves jolla. | 14:53 |
| zGrr | ... love without reciprocity | 14:54 |
| daitheflu | zGrr: that sentence sums it up | 14:55 |
| tbr | +1 | 14:55 |
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| ArtVandalae | A lot of ill feelings. I usually wouldn't comment but I care enough about FOSS/Linux on the phone to say something: I don't think the negativity helps -- your negativity will drive newcomers away. I think Jolla does about as well as it can. It's not perfect, it could do better, but I don't think there's any other companies in this space (FOSS/Linux phones), with a product a product as good. | 15:12 |
| ArtVandalae | Jolla has a short runway, to make a big as difference as possible. I'm hoping it reaches a point where the community can take over. | 15:13 |
| ArtVandalae | IMO, the competitors (Ubuntu Touch and Tizen) aren't even competitive at this point | 15:14 |
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| ArtVandalae | And that's the royal "you", I'm not picking on anyone in particular. | 15:15 |
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| tbr | ok, everyone, sing happy happy joy joy, now. | 15:16 |
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| ArtVandalae | No, screw the hippy crap, but a positive mindset goes a long way | 15:18 |
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| tbr | criticism is not allowed? police state much? | 15:19 |
| zGrr | ArtVandalae: what makes you think that we are negative? | 15:22 |
| tbr | also a positive mindset only goes so far | 15:22 |
| ArtVandalae | Criticism is absolutely needed, but I think being overly critical hurts the FOSS/Linux phone community, and yourselves more in the long run. It's still a small community, it needs as many good people as possible. | 15:24 |
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| ArtVandalae | zGrr, just based on my reading of the IRC logs | 15:26 |
| zGrr | ArtVandalae: we are concerned, not negative. | 15:27 |
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| ArtVandalae | I'm absolutely concerned too. I want Jolla to make a good product, to sell a lotta devices, so that they can stay alive and keep developed Linux on the mobile. I'm not saying be a snakeoil salesman, but if the device is good enough (which IMO the Jolla phone is) help people that are interested. Help sell tablets. Help build a community. That'll ensure Jolla can continue to develop SailfishOS for longer | 15:29 |
| daitheflu | ArtVandalae: I think we all here ARE actually asking/willing to help | 15:30 |
| ArtVandalae | Anyone with a brain could have figured out that Jolla wouldn't ship the device in ~6 months. It didn't stop me buying the tablet though, coz I knew they'd eventually deliver (I guesstimated a year) | 15:31 |
| zGrr | ArtVandalae: first of all, i don't want to watch jolla sunk. being uncritical and ignoring what's obvious to anyone will not help. | 15:33 |
| coderus | jolla tablet? i won't believe it's real thing before i get one in my hands. so... | 15:33 |
| daitheflu | OR anyone with a brain could have thought : "ok, they succeed in delivering the phone, so they probably have partnerships with manufacturers, and, if they're launching a crowdfunding campaign with such a short delays, it's because they've already everything in the pipeline" | 15:33 |
| ArtVandalae | Good. So help. Every little bit helps: I write software, and talk to fellow techies about the phone. I post on a variety of forums and answer questions. That's the best that I can do | 15:33 |
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| tbr | I doubt jolla will make any money with the jolla tablet. it's a low margin thing. the only intention is to showcase their tablet OS | 15:34 |
| ArtVandalae | daitheflu, my thinking was more along the lines of "I work as a software developer. I've worked with teams of 50-100. I know how hard it is to release products by deadlines. I seriously doubt this'll ship this soon" | 15:35 |
| ArtVandalae | tbr, +1 | 15:35 |
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| daitheflu | when you ask for people to invest into something, the best way to keep their interest is to actually communicate about it | 15:35 |
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| daitheflu | ArtVandalae: I was also doubting it, but I don't mind delays | 15:36 |
| ArtVandalae | Absolutely. To a degree. I've worked with clients, where you tell them as much as they need to know. Tell them too much, and you've done more needless damage, simply by being too honest with them. | 15:36 |
| zGrr | it is not difficult to deliver on a deadline, if you make realistic deadlines. | 15:36 |
| daitheflu | problem is the lack of communication | 15:36 |
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| ArtVandalae | +1. But who would buy a tablet if they sold it as "available 1.5 years from now? | 15:37 |
| daitheflu | again, they successfully delivered phones, why do they have to test delivery with the tablet ? | 15:37 |
| ArtVandalae | Who knows. I try to avoid conspiracy theories :P | 15:38 |
| daitheflu | I stand on their side, I want them to succeed, but it's sometimes hard | 15:38 |
| daitheflu | my wife keeps asking me about the tablet that was supposed to come before summer | 15:38 |
| ArtVandalae | haha | 15:39 |
| ArtVandalae | I get similar questions | 15:39 |
| daitheflu | now I don't expect it before 2016. Until then she'll probably buy an iPad or whatever | 15:39 |
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| daitheflu | THAT is making newcomers go away :( | 15:40 |
| zGrr | ArtVandalae: when i contributed to the tablet project, i took into account, that i might never actually see it. i didn't even believe their estimates. | 15:40 |
| tbr | it's actually quite painful if you have a reasonable understanding of business and read the signs how tight and limited jolla is in their possibilities, while at the same time you see all the failures and how things go wrong and know that they really should go worng | 15:40 |
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| tbr | what's annoying at the moment is that they have shown that they can deliver <200 items and now things seem to have stalled without explanation, again | 15:41 |
| ArtVandalae | daitheflu, agreed | 15:41 |
| tbr | also their "community meetings" were cancelled for a whole quarter and now are struggling again | 15:42 |
| ArtVandalae | Jolla seems to be doing as well as it can. Look at Intel+Samsung and Canonical. What do they have to show for all their efforts? IMO, a *hell* of a lot less. | 15:42 |
| ArtVandalae | They're bigger companies, with more capital too. And shittier products. | 15:42 |
| tbr | that does not excuse many of the failures | 15:42 |
| ArtVandalae | I agree, they can do better. | 15:43 |
| tbr | and it does not excuse them going after people who complain loudly | 15:43 |
| ArtVandalae | I'm fortunate enough to never have heard anything like that. It sounds nasty. | 15:44 |
| zGrr | ArtVandalae: no, it doesn't seem to be doing well at all. looking from outside, it looks that it barely stays afloat. | 15:44 |
| Yaniel | wow this sure exploded again | 15:45 |
| daitheflu | tbr: did they ?! | 15:45 |
| ArtVandalae | zGrr, it's a difficult market. That's why I want them to build something solid enough that the community can maintain. If I can security patch my device, should Jolla "sink", I'd be relatively happy. I'd be happier, if they did work that enabled the whole FOSS community to get onto the mobile phone. | 15:46 |
| ArtVandalae | I hate this kernel 3.4 Android crap. | 15:46 |
| ArtVandalae | If I can always boot the latest stock Debian on my phone, I'll code up a dialer, and a god damn SMS app if I have to. | 15:47 |
| zGrr | ArtVandalae: there is no market. only two monocultures of apple and android. | 15:47 |
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| daitheflu | zGrr: there is also WP | 15:48 |
| ArtVandalae | yes, it's very sad | 15:48 |
| leszek | And Google and Apple are telling you that there is a market you can earn money with. In reality besides apple no other company is really making money on smartphones | 15:49 |
| ArtVandalae | daitheflu, what's that? :P | 15:49 |
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| daitheflu | jk :D | 15:49 |
| ArtVandalae | leszek, yes, it definitely feels like a great big lie. I worked ~2 for a mobile app developer. There really is very little money in apps. | 15:49 |
| ArtVandalae | *~2 years | 15:50 |
| zGrr | ArtVandalae: jolla is trying to make entirely new market. | 15:50 |
| ArtVandalae | ... I'll try that again | 15:50 |
| leszek | yeah this is also true app development and making money is hard as hell | 15:50 |
| ArtVandalae | *I worked 2 years as a mobile app developer, for a mobile app development company | 15:50 |
| leszek | zGrr: yeah and that worked out as ubuntu, kde also strive for that goal | 15:51 |
| leszek | Too bad such a close system like tizen is slowly growing in popularity as basically only the closed locked down version of it on samsung smartphones or tvs are sold | 15:52 |
| zGrr | leszek: difference is that unlike jolla, ubuntu doesn't even exists. | 15:52 |
| leszek | zGrr: what do you mean exists ? | 15:52 |
| leszek | the market ? | 15:52 |
| ArtVandalae | leszek, it does suck. The good news is, Samsung+Intel are pouring a lotta money into a bunch of FOSS tech. | 15:52 |
| leszek | ArtVandalae: thats true and they aren't using the android drivers as backend which could be a huge benefit for SailfishOS also in the future maybe | 15:53 |
| ArtVandalae | ah cool. I did not know that | 15:53 |
| ArtVandalae | Anyway. I've said everything I've wanted to say. Goodnight guys. | 15:53 |
| zGrr | leszek: i am not aware that you can buy ubuntu phone, or download software and flash your samsung or any other smartphone. i might be wrong, but i regarded ubuntu as a vaporware. | 15:54 |
| leszek | Samsung has Spreadtrum as chip manufactor basically for its first Z1 and for several TVs and they exclusively also delivered linux drivers (tizen drivers) | 15:55 |
| leszek | zGrr: oh there are some ubuntu phones you can buy. Like the Xiami one (they have a special page for it) or from Bq. There are also some images that you can flash on nexus devices and some others. So its not varpoware | 15:56 |
| leszek | the only thing ubuntu lacks and this even is very clear when comparing with sailfishos are native apps | 15:56 |
| leszek | there are a bunch but 90% on the software center in ubuntu are webapps (webbrowsers who load the mobile site) | 15:56 |
| leszek | and sailfishos has here a great app infrastructure in comparison | 15:57 |
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| zGrr | leszek: i wasn't aware of that. | 15:58 |
| leszek | and also the images on the nexus aren't as speedy and fast as the sailfishos counterparts which is interesting | 15:58 |
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| r0kk3rz | spiiroin: ping | 17:55 |
| spiiroin | r0kk3rz: pong | 17:55 |
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| r0kk3rz | spiiroin: are you the person to talk to about usb gadget drivers? or is my memory faulty | 17:55 |
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| spiiroin | r0kk3rz: for usb related things -> phdeswer | 17:56 |
| r0kk3rz | ah yes, thanks :) | 17:56 |
| spiiroin | np | 17:56 |
| phdeswer | r0kk3rz: yep.. Don't have a backlog atm so you'll have to ask ;) | 17:57 |
| r0kk3rz | phdeswer: say i wanted to enable the g_hid usb gadget driver, what other things is that likely to break? | 17:57 |
| phdeswer | r0kk3rz: you will have to switch out the android gadget. usb_moded can handle the normal gadgets too but you will have to change the configs if you want to keep stuff working. | 17:58 |
| phdeswer | Otherwise I don't expect anything to blow up. Just don't think the android gadget driver works as module. | 17:59 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah i saw that you have to do that on android phones, so i figured it would apply | 17:59 |
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| r0kk3rz | phdeswer: would it be easyish to enable it out of the box? or would it require a fair amount of implementation work? | 18:00 |
| phdeswer | Not to hard there are usb-moded configs that work with the regular gadgets. I think just mtp might be tricky. | 18:00 |
| phdeswer | Otherwise it is just enabling the right options in the kernel and rebuild. | 18:00 |
| r0kk3rz | cool thanks for the info, will see how far i get with it | 18:02 |
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| phdeswer | r0kk3rz: for example if you want developer mode to work, you select g_ether as module and use this config https://github.com/philippedeswert/usb-moded/blob/master/config/dyn-modes/developer_mode.ini | 18:03 |
| phdeswer | Of course you will have to move out the android ones, but it would just be a relatively simple switvh | 18:03 |
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| r0kk3rz | ah yeah i see, so i could build the module, and use usb-moded to load it in once it has a config | 18:08 |
| phdeswer | r0kk3rz: yep exactly. You could even have it load g_hid and make it start apps/services that you might need. In the git repo there is quite complete documentation | 18:09 |
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| r0kk3rz | yeah i'll be sure to have a read through, thanks | 18:12 |
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| tortoisedoc_ | damn | 19:06 |
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