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| * smokex imports 1200 contacts over vcf | 04:46 | |
| smokex | this should take a while | 04:46 |
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| coderus | when Mitakuuluu will be ready i'll open petition "Give Mitakuuluu green light to Harbour!" :D | 07:43 |
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| Nicd- | hmm, is QtNetwork allowed? | 07:50 |
| sunkan | Nicd-: It is according to | 07:56 |
| sunkan | https://harbour.jolla.com/faq | 07:57 |
| Nicd- | I don't see it | 08:00 |
| Nicd- | ah, there | 08:00 |
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| jani | i know QtPositioning is not officially available for harbour apps but is there something that prevents it's use if the device is not in developer mode ? | 09:52 |
| jani | i got couple of bug reports from people saying that my app doesnt start on device if the dev mode is not set (it just shows white screen) | 09:52 |
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| Hartzi | jani: what is your app? | 09:53 |
| jani | Hartzi: Jopas - meegopas port .. | 09:54 |
| Hartzi | okay | 09:54 |
| Hartzi | public transportation or something? | 09:54 |
| Hartzi | Hki/Tre? | 09:55 |
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| jani | Hartzi: both .. | 10:07 |
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| jani | meaning hki & tampere .. | 10:07 |
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| Hartzi | ok | 10:23 |
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| cos- | should debugging work in current sailfish sdk? | 10:29 |
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| kaltsi | no | 10:30 |
| kaltsi | well it should, but doesn't | 10:30 |
| cos- | ok | 10:30 |
| kontio | jani: do you happen to use xmlmodel in qml? | 10:30 |
| jani | kontio: app is a port of meegopas so im not 100% familiar with codebase but git grep -i xmlmodel atleast does not yield any hits .. | 10:32 |
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| kontio | oh the name is QtQuick.XmlListModel | 10:32 |
| kontio | there is a list in between :-) sorry | 10:33 |
| jani | yeah, i just found it. | 10:33 |
| jani | yes, QtQuick.XmlListModel is used .. | 10:33 |
| kontio | jani: then it could be the same as https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2014-January/002892.html | 10:33 |
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| cos- | i'm struggling with my app causing too many wakeups to be accepted in harbour. | 10:35 |
| jani | kontio: might very well be about dependencies, thanks for the pointer! | 10:36 |
| cos- | i just checked and it has 3 timers, with 10 min, 5 sec (not repeating) and 10 secs. | 10:36 |
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| cos- | not an easy issue to debug | 10:36 |
| kaltsi | cos-: you could possibly try to run gdb on the device itself, but the qtcreator to device/emu debugging is broken now | 10:37 |
| kontio | cos-: did you already read: https://together.jolla.com/question/13243/my-app-got-rejected-to-store-because-of-high-power-consumption-how-to-debug-problems/#13247 ? | 10:37 |
| euroelessar | I can't install vim on device by pkcon, hasve somebody faced with the same problem? | 10:37 |
| cos- | kontio: yep.. i'm looking at powertop now | 10:38 |
| euroelessar | pkcon tells that it installed the vim, but it's still is listed as 'Available' package | 10:38 |
| kaltsi | euroelessar: what's the problem? | 10:38 |
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| kontio | cos-: and what is your apps name? | 10:40 |
| cos- | kontio: siilihai-mobile | 10:40 |
| cos- | it's available in warehouse | 10:40 |
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| kaltsi | euroelessar: I'm sure you've noticed the device has 'vi' .. but you want 'vim'? | 10:40 |
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| euroelessar | kaltsi: it has 'vim-minimal' | 10:41 |
| ottulo | cos-: I had a problem with that | 10:41 |
| cos- | the best guess i have is that there's some kind of qml transition running forever | 10:41 |
| euroelessar | as I notice it at least has no highligting support | 10:42 |
| ottulo | cos-: I was trying to add a certain forum that works with tapatalk on android, for example, but siilihai said there's no support | 10:42 |
| kaltsi | euroelessar: yes.. ok, so what is the problem you are facing? what is the error? | 10:42 |
| euroelessar | kaltsi: pkcon tell me no error | 10:42 |
| kaltsi | how do you try to install it | 10:42 |
| cos- | ottulo: doublecheck that the url is correct.. add mobiquo/mobiquo.php to end of it and see if you get the tapatalk status page | 10:42 |
| euroelessar | pkcon -v install vim | 10:42 |
| kaltsi | this works for me: pkcon install vim-enhanced | 10:42 |
| kaltsi | euroelessar: use 'pkcon search name vim' .. you can see that 'vim' is only the source package but 'vim-enhanced' is the binary package | 10:43 |
| cos- | ottulo: i can try to subscribe it if you give the url | 10:43 |
| ottulo | cos-: I did double check the url, tried with/without index.php at the end... and adding "mobiquo" did take me to tapatalk page | 10:43 |
| ottulo | cos-: chilifoorumi.fi | 10:43 |
| euroelessar | oh | 10:44 |
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| euroelessar | kaltsi: thanks, this works | 10:44 |
| kaltsi | euroelessar: yw :) | 10:44 |
| euroelessar | but why there were no errors or any messages? | 10:45 |
| cos- | ottulo: subscibed to it without problems (on desktop client) | 10:45 |
| ottulo | cos-: I was trying on the sailfish client, don't know about desktop | 10:45 |
| kaltsi | euroelessar: for me 'pkcon install vim' does say 'installing packages' and no errors.. it installs the source package so there really was no error | 10:45 |
| cos- | ottulo: hmm but it doesn't display any groups for some reason. | 10:46 |
| euroelessar | the next question is if there is any alternative for 'update-alternative' | 10:46 |
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| euroelessar | from Debian | 10:46 |
| euroelessar | I want to set 'vi' to be symlink to 'vim' | 10:46 |
| kaltsi | euroelessar: hmm or no.. it didn't install anything, strange | 10:46 |
| kaltsi | euroelessar: no there's no 'alternatives' thing | 10:46 |
| euroelessar | that's sad :( | 10:47 |
| kaltsi | euroelessar: maybe you could make an alias into your .bashrc .. | 10:47 |
| cos- | ottulo: looks like there is some issue with the forum. thanks for reporting! | 10:47 |
| cos- | tapatalk is not the best of protocols.. some forums implement it a bit differently | 10:47 |
| euroelessar | kaltsi: yes, it can work | 10:47 |
| ottulo | cos-: is it something at the forum side or app? | 10:47 |
| ottulo | oh, if it's different implementation I guess it's really both/neither | 10:48 |
| cos- | ottulo: don't know yet. i'm trying to get the app to work with all kinds of forum implementations. | 10:48 |
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| ottulo | cos-: all right, good luck! | 10:49 |
| jani | euroelessar: like you propably noticed already, there's no vi, binary is called vim .. | 10:50 |
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| euroelessar | jani: there is binary /bin/vi | 10:52 |
| euroelessar | it's vim, of course, but minimal one | 10:52 |
| jani | didnt notice that, maybe i installed different package then or /bin/ is not in my path atleast.. | 10:53 |
| euroelessar | it was automatically installed with developer mode | 10:53 |
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| lbt | my fingers think that is a bug fwiw | 10:56 |
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| w00t | lbt: we'll fix your incorrect editor habit one day... | 10:59 |
| lbt | *g* I do use vi when I feel I've been bad | 10:59 |
| jani | w00t: ln -s `which emacs` `which vim` ? =) </sorry> | 10:59 |
| euroelessar | oh, I've just opened 'about:config' in default browser %) | 10:59 |
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| * w00t is shocked | 11:01 | |
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| w00t | I was about to make a joke about not having emacs installed, but, I do on lea | 11:01 |
| w00t | lbt: now tell me how to quit this thing :P | 11:01 |
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| * lbt passes w00t 'ed' | 11:02 | |
| coderus | thp: ping | 11:02 |
| w00t | lbt: ctrl+d | 11:02 |
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| lbt | ed: http://pastie.org/8632168 | 11:03 |
| w00t | hm | 11:04 |
| w00t | ctrl+d is how i've gotten out before :p | 11:04 |
| lbt | uh-uh | 11:04 |
| lbt | occasionally I run ed just because | 11:04 |
| fk_lx | let's start favourite editors flame! ;-) | 11:05 |
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| vegai | emacs on touchscreen phones is absolute bliss | 11:06 |
| vegai | especially with default bindings | 11:06 |
| * lbt thinks ed was written by Aard | 11:06 | |
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| tbr | lbt: that nasty? | 11:06 |
| lbt | succint | 11:07 |
| fk_lx | only good things come from Aard | 11:07 |
| Venemo_j | morning | 11:08 |
| Aard | ed is a beautiful editor | 11:08 |
| * stephg real men edit files with dd etc. etc. | 11:09 | |
| artemma | real men write their own hard disk drivers | 11:09 |
| artemma | oh what was that Torvalds'es phrase? | 11:10 |
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| fk_lx | real mens use: | 11:10 |
| fk_lx | cat > some_file | 11:10 |
| netzvieh | http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/real_programmers.png :) | 11:11 |
| w00t | real programmers use cat to write code for their own editor, compile it, and then edit some_file with it | 11:11 |
| leinir | ...did someone hotlink an xkcd comic?! | 11:13 |
| vegai | real women use eclipse 15.0 and get everything done in 5% the time of real men? | 11:13 |
| thp | coderus: pong | 11:13 |
| Milo- | I don't know how to close emacs, so I just use killall -9 emacs | 11:13 |
| Milo- | works every time! | 11:13 |
| fk_lx | w00t: :-) | 11:13 |
| vegai | Milo-: in cron? | 11:14 |
| Milo- | yes. it keeps flooding that once per second. | 11:14 |
| vegai | in every server you administer? :P | 11:14 |
| Milo- | yes | 11:14 |
| Milo- | just in case someone, somewhere, is trapped inside emacs for what ever reason. | 11:15 |
| cos- | i think this discussion is off topic and should end now (emacs ftw!) | 11:22 |
| FireFly | Milo-: good idea | 11:22 |
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| coderus | thp: i didnt understand what you meant here: | 11:24 |
| coderus | "Would there be situations where the app developer wouldn't want to call app->installTranslator() on the QTranslator object? If not, we might want to do the installTranslator call directly inside libsailfishapp." | 11:24 |
| thp | coderus: if all apps end up calling app->installTranslator(), then we can just as well do that call in libsailfishapp | 11:24 |
| thp | coderus: however, if some apps don't call that, or do something else with the qtranslator before, then it makes sense to let the app developer call app->installTranslator() | 11:25 |
| coderus | all apps using only SailfishApp::main would use translator | 11:26 |
| thp | coderus: yeah, and that is fine. the question is, would any app developer /not/ want to call app->installTranslator() on the QTranslator object? | 11:26 |
| thp | (or rather, would any app developer want to do something else with the QTranslator object before calling installTranslator()) | 11:27 |
| thp | if they do, then the way it's done now is okay. otherwise i'd do the app->installTranslator() call inside libsailfishapp so that the app developer doesn't have to add that boilerplate code | 11:27 |
| coderus | thp: main point is saving QTranslator object for having option to switching translations on the fly | 11:29 |
| euroelessar | coderus: why do you need to save QTranslator items? | 11:29 |
| euroelessar | coderus: it's not expensive to create a new one by request | 11:30 |
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| coderus | euroelessar: to remove existing translator before installing a new one | 11:30 |
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| thp | coderus: switching translations on the fly based on system locale change or based on e.g. some ui elements? | 11:36 |
| thp | coderus: if based on system locale change, we can probably put that directly into libsailfishapp as well (we don't want every app developer to re-invent listening to these configuration changes and juggling around qtranslator objects) | 11:37 |
| thp | if on some ui elements, then we might need to do that indeed | 11:37 |
| coderus | afaik changing system locale forcing os to restart, no? | 11:37 |
| thp | (or keep some internal state and remove the old translator when a new translator is installed with loadTranslation()) | 11:37 |
| thp | coderus: i'm not even sure, let's check.. | 11:37 |
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| coderus | i mean uiu elements, yes. its good to have options to change language if existing translation is weird :) | 11:38 |
| thp | coderus: yeah, right now when i change the system locale in settings, it will restart the device | 11:38 |
| thp | coderus: so what about remembering the old QTranslator in libsailfishapp and removing it when a new translation is installed? | 11:38 |
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| coderus | wher to remember it? | 11:41 |
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| coderus | there are no classes | 11:45 |
| coderus | making static variable? =| | 11:45 |
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| LordVan | hi | 12:29 |
| Yaniel | hi | 12:30 |
| LordVan | i was jus tlooking at the jolla webpage and was wondering if there's another (reasonable effort) way to try out mer/sailfishos ? | 12:31 |
| sledges | LordVan: for Sailfish for now: VM, Nokia N9/950 | 12:32 |
| LordVan | sledges, any chance of n900 too? | 12:32 |
| sledges | Mer(Nemo) can be tried on dev board (Pandaboard, AllWinner) | 12:32 |
| LordVan | i still got mine | 12:32 |
| sledges | LordVan: ping vakkov on #nemomobile-porters on n900 effort - he advanced with it recently, see where he's at | 12:33 |
| LordVan | does anyone have a Jolla phone btw? | 12:34 |
| Yaniel | sure | 12:34 |
| Hartzi | many does | 12:34 |
| LordVan | i would really like to try it but buying one for 400€ just to try it .. | 12:34 |
| Hartzi | LordVan: You're located at? | 12:35 |
| LordVan | Austria | 12:35 |
| LordVan | not too far from vienna | 12:35 |
| Yaniel | well if you are lucky you mioght find someone nearby | 12:35 |
| LordVan | that was what i was hoping ;) | 12:35 |
| LordVan | to find someone who'd let me poke at thiers ;) | 12:35 |
| Hartzi | LordVan: then you can spend that 400EUR to travelling to finland ;> | 12:35 |
| LordVan | Hartzi, tempting, but not at the moment ^^ | 12:36 |
| Hartzi | hey the weather is now perfect for that | 12:36 |
| Hartzi | you really should ;> | 12:36 |
| LordVan | heeh | 12:38 |
| LordVan | some time maybe .. but not to look at a phone ^^ | 12:39 |
| LordVan | haha now that is sorta amusing: "Extension interfaces for wireless NFC, power in/out and I2C data connectivity " (i2c ? nice ;) | 12:40 |
| Yaniel | people have already stuck wireless chargers and solar panels to it | 12:40 |
| LordVan | ^^ | 12:41 |
| LordVan | so how's it comparing from a user experience point of view with recent android devices? | 12:41 |
| LordVan | i mean i watched the video but well ^ ^ | 12:42 |
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| Yaniel | from my limited experience with android devices they seem to work much like Symbian Belle | 12:42 |
| Yaniel | which I forgot how to use after poking my jolla for 6h | 12:43 |
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| LordVan | hehe | 12:51 |
| LordVan | O.o: http://www.ebay.at/itm/Jolla-Sailfish-OS-Smartphone-red-other-half-NEW-/281244272924?pt=DE_Handy_s&hash=item417b77091c 100€ more than from the shop .. v strange | 12:52 |
| Nicd- | well from the official store it's not for sale to the US for example | 12:53 |
| Nicd- | some people might want to pay for it to arrive earlier (delivery time is 3-4 weeks from the official store) and of course there's the red limited edition OH | 12:54 |
| Yaniel | that's quite cheap for one on ebay | 12:54 |
| LordVan | hm | 12:55 |
| LordVan | no way i want a red one anyway | 12:55 |
| LordVan | ^^ | 12:56 |
| LordVan | not my color | 12:56 |
| LordVan | i dont like white either though | 12:56 |
| LordVan | anyway | 12:57 |
| radiofree | i want orange | 12:57 |
| LordVan | how well do android apps work on it? | 12:57 |
| radiofree | where is the bugzilla for jolla/sailfish? | 12:57 |
| LordVan | - I got a few apps i'D definitely want to use still | 12:57 |
| radiofree | i'm loving it so far, but wifi on the device is awful! | 12:57 |
| LordVan | how come? | 12:57 |
| LordVan | connection issues? | 12:57 |
| radiofree | yeah, very few wifi networks i can actually connect to | 12:58 |
| radiofree | my home one works though! | 12:58 |
| LordVan | sounds odd | 12:58 |
| radiofree | but when i left the flat this morning, it went into some kind of connection spasm | 12:58 |
| radiofree | had to reboot the whole phone to switch to 3g | 12:58 |
| LordVan | O.o you should definitely report that one .. so it gets fixed should i get one in the future ;) | 12:58 |
| LordVan | hehe | 12:58 |
| LordVan | ^^ | 12:58 |
| radiofree | yeah... | 12:59 |
| radiofree | out of the box only one of the two wireless networks in the office work | 12:59 |
| radiofree | after the update neither did :\ | 12:59 |
| radiofree | i think it's incorrectly detecting the security settings for it, but there doesn't appear to be anyway to change it | 13:00 |
| radiofree | also the mobile data stuff needs work | 13:00 |
| radiofree | it incorrectly default to the first APN on my simcard (it's an o2, but the first on the apn list is giffgaff) | 13:00 |
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| radiofree | so had to manually enter the mobile settings | 13:01 |
| radiofree | it really should check through the whole list to see which one works | 13:01 |
| zuh | radiofree: long press on the network in Settings? | 13:01 |
| radiofree | zuh: i tried that, i couldn't change the security though | 13:02 |
| zuh | What about forgetting it? | 13:03 |
| radiofree | didn't work either | 13:04 |
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| zuh | o_O | 13:04 |
| radiofree | i'll try and reproduce the error i had this morning tomorrow as well | 13:04 |
| radiofree | connect to wifi at home, leave the flat, experience wifi-spasm | 13:05 |
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| euroelessar | is there any common way to add search engine in addition to 3 default ones? | 13:16 |
| euroelessar | oh, they are hardcoded... | 13:17 |
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| coderus | by hacking /usr/share/jolla-settings/pages/browser/browser.qml | 13:20 |
| euroelessar | coderus: already found it | 13:20 |
| coderus | and add search engine xml | 13:21 |
| euroelessar | but looks like default yandex's search engine xml file is not valid | 13:21 |
| coderus | why? :) | 13:21 |
| euroelessar | I've copied one from /usr/share/whatever to ~/.mozilla/wahtever, but it now throws me to index page instead of search results | 13:22 |
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| cos- | is there a easy way to distribute custom ambiances? something app store like? | 13:33 |
| coderus | euroelessar: you doing something wrong | 13:33 |
| coderus | cos-: by custom ambiances you mean wallpapers? | 13:34 |
| euroelessar | coderus: may be | 13:34 |
| cos- | coderus: no, ambiances. | 13:34 |
| coderus | euroelessar: because its working for me | 13:34 |
| cos- | now there is an idea at least: https://together.jolla.com/question/14792/create-a-service-for-sharing-and-installing-ambiances-easily/ | 13:40 |
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| euroelessar | ok, done it | 13:44 |
| euroelessar | needed to fix yandex.xml a bit | 13:44 |
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| cos- | ottulo: the server is responding with "Internal Server Error" to the group list request.. | 14:29 |
| ottulo | cos-: so it's a server side error... I'll ask the admins about it, maybe they can see what's going on | 14:30 |
| cos- | ottulo: if you are registered to the forum, you could ask the webmaster to check error logs and perhaps upgrade tapatalk plugin | 14:30 |
| ottulo | yep, I know the admins so it's no problem | 14:30 |
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| ottulo | now I gotta go afk for a while, I'll let you know how it goes | 14:31 |
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| radiofree | how well does the official whatsapp client work on the jolla i wonder | 14:33 |
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| kor | it does. that's about it | 14:35 |
| kor | use mitäkuuluu, works a lot better | 14:35 |
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| coderus | mitakuuluu experiencing problems with sync, we moving to new protocol. no idea how long it will. btw, with official whatsapp you cant access phonebook at all :D | 14:37 |
| radiofree | ah | 14:40 |
| radiofree | well i can't add any contacts on mitakuuluu so i guess they're roughly equal in functionality ;) | 14:40 |
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| ZioBilly | Hello, my phone went in a boot loop, i opened a question here https://together.jolla.com/question/13294/jolla-device-in-boot-loop/ and they told me to ask on IRC or contact Stskeeps, can someone help me? | 14:48 |
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| FireFly | Stskeeps: ↑ | 14:49 |
| FireFly | :P | 14:49 |
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| FireFly | ZioBilly: if you stick around he'll probably see the message sooner or later | 14:51 |
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| ZioBilly | Ok :) I hope i can solve this problem.. | 14:52 |
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| M4renz | Greetings | 14:59 |
| M4renz | Anyone got experience with installing sailfish OS on the fairphone? | 14:59 |
| M4renz | I'll receive mine soon and wonder whether it's already worth trying to install it | 15:00 |
| M4renz | Though right now I don't even see an install image, at least not linked at the front page | 15:01 |
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| Nicd- | M4renz: there are no official sailfish images for other phones yet | 15:02 |
| M4renz | Ah okay | 15:02 |
| M4renz | Are ther inofficial ones? | 15:05 |
| Nicd- | yes, at least for N9 and N950 | 15:05 |
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| M4renz | hm okay. I guess I just have to wait till it's ready | 15:08 |
| M4renz | thank you. | 15:08 |
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| jani | http://pastebin.com/A2Ne5uWu <- anyone seen this while building ? | 15:50 |
| jani | trying to create new release packageas but it fails for "timeout" .. most likely because this /usr/lib/rpm/check-files seems to 'never' exit .. | 15:51 |
| Hartzi | jani: yes many times | 15:52 |
| Hartzi | just restart merSDK | 15:52 |
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| jani | tried it already few times .. made even sure that vbox is totally dead before starting qt creator .. | 15:55 |
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| jani | crap-o-la, well .. afk for a while, need to head home. | 15:59 |
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| jani | had to reboot osx before it worked =( ( | 16:39 |
| jani | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/258191/jopasbuilds/harbour-jopas-0.2.0-1.armv7hl.rpm .. test build if some users here want to try out before i get this release to openrepos | 16:40 |
| Nicd- | what is it? | 16:41 |
| kaltsi | is it a good idea to name non-harbour packages harbour-something? | 16:42 |
| Yaniel | no | 16:43 |
| kaltsi | what's the openrepos url btw.. I'd like to check if there are many harbour- packages there? | 16:43 |
| jani | Nicd-: journey planner for hki/tre area here in finland | 16:44 |
| jani | kaltsi: https://openrepos.net/ | 16:44 |
| kaltsi | thanks | 16:44 |
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| Nicd- | jani: ok, I'll try it out | 16:45 |
| jani | there's openrepos client called warehouse somewhere in the openrepos page which allows you to install packages directly from their repos.. | 16:45 |
| Nicd- | jani: for local traffic? (buses etc) | 16:45 |
| jani | Nicd-: bus/tram/train/metro .. | 16:46 |
| jani | Nicd-: meegopas port basicly | 16:46 |
| jani | s/port/fork/ | 16:46 |
| Nicd- | I'll download it now | 16:46 |
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| jani | previous version (0.1.0) had issue that it did only worked in dev mode .. | 16:47 |
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| Nicd- | yaay, it seems to work :) | 16:54 |
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| jani | Nicd-: where you able to actually get search results ? | 17:35 |
| Nicd- | tampere | 17:35 |
| jani | lol | 17:35 |
| Nicd- | oh | 17:35 |
| jani | i had tampere set too and i was first thinking wtf is wrong cuz it cant find any routes | 17:35 |
| jani | (im in vantaa) | 17:36 |
| Nicd- | I just read "where" | 17:36 |
| jani | goodie! | 17:36 |
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| jani | i thought i had introduced some regression first as i was not able to get any results. | 17:38 |
| jani | 351 downloads for 0.1.0 release on openrepos .. | 17:41 |
| radiofree | how do you disable sounds in the messaging app | 17:42 |
| jani | and now available in the openrepos .. | 17:45 |
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| edgars | Jan 14 20:42:54 localhost start_alien.sh[1298]: 01-14 18:42:54.442 1428 1488 E MediaPlayerService: Couldn't open fd for content://settings/system/ringtone | 18:47 |
| edgars | Jan 14 20:42:54 localhost start_alien.sh[1298]: 01-14 18:42:54.445 1569 1581 E MediaPlayer: Unable to to create media player | 18:47 |
| edgars | :/ | 18:47 |
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| kelvan | wow mersdk vm is pretty neat, just built nmap for sailfishos :D | 19:28 |
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| attah | QT noob hgere.. I want to import QtDocGallery 5.0.. but it's not installed it seems, how would i fix that? | 19:48 |
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| attah | Or rather there is a folder with a qmldir fail in it.. but it's not "exposed".. hmm.. | 19:52 |
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| jani | btw, is there any quicl way to "factory reset" emu & sdk images ? | 20:05 |
| jani | attah: i dont know about qtdocgallery but i think the preferred way is that a) you add the rpm package to spec or yaml file that provides your needed qml - and then deploy it to emu/device as rpm and it should get installed .. | 20:06 |
| tbr | jani: not sure if they are snapshotted in virtualbox | 20:06 |
| tbr | jani: if not get them from the download repository, and snapshot before first start | 20:07 |
| jani | ah, forgot to check that .. | 20:07 |
| attah | Actually i got some version of it working now.. gives me syntax errors in QT creator.. but it builds | 20:08 |
| attah | maybe i should switch to vim or something.. IDEs can't be trusted | 20:08 |
| attah | at least with pebkac like me | 20:08 |
| jani | snapshots not enabled .. but really really good idea, thanks =) | 20:08 |
| tbr | jani: http://releases.sailfishos.org/sdk/repository/common/org.merproject.mersdk/ | 20:10 |
| tbr | http://releases.sailfishos.org/sdk/repository/common/org.merproject.emulator/ | 20:10 |
| tbr | i bet those 7z's are the VMs | 20:10 |
| attah | WHAT?!?!? I succed to list my music library in my phone, the *first* time i intend to do so | 20:13 |
| attah | Surely it must go down the drain from now on | 20:13 |
| M4rtinK | stuff working on the first time is suspicious :) | 20:13 |
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| attah | Just a gentle nudge from Murphy: Toggle comment went all /**/ on me instead of // on every line.. doesn't work in qml.. | 20:21 |
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| sunkan | My updated app is now in the jolla store, but my phone does not prompt me to update or anything.. In "My apps" it looks as if the new version is installed (showing the new app icon). I have not seen any app update yet, is that non-working at the moment? | 20:27 |
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| Tegu | sunkan: not sure but try to open it in the category view (just All because it sorts the list by time). some time ago an app got updated but I could only install it from there but not from "my apps" | 20:34 |
| sunkan | Tegu: It looks the same when I go that way.. It will probably work if I uninstall/install it, but I can't expect people that don't know it has been updated to do that.. | 20:38 |
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| attah | So I tried making a gallerymodel with rootType: ...Album, but i can only get the property "title" to work.. neither "artist" or "albumArtist" can be printed in the delegated element | 20:52 |
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| M4rtinK | post-you-together-question time ! | 21:50 |
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| M4rtinK | *your :) | 21:50 |
| Jonni | sunkan: afaik it takes some time after qa approval before it hits the store backend. | 21:50 |
| M4rtinK | https://together.jolla.com/question/14990/suggestion-installing-applications-from-qr-codes/ | 21:50 |
| M4rtinK | ideas ? :) | 21:50 |
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| sunkan | Jonni: I see the new icon and the new version number in the store on the phone. But the phone does not understand that it should update the app.. Really strange.. | 21:59 |
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| Jonni | well pkcon refresh only happens on some random intervals | 22:00 |
| attah | it appears that DocumentGallery.Album is borked.. it has no albumArtist property (or it's empty) FML | 22:03 |
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| sunkan | Jonni: Ok, I'll check how it looks tomorrow then. If still nothing I'll do a manual refresh to see what happens. Thanks for the hint. | 22:06 |
| * sunkan now needs to sleep.. | 22:06 | |
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| DarkSim | How is the security in Sailfish? | 22:21 |
| DarkSim | Like Android have permissions and sandboxing | 22:21 |
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| M4rtinK | much more simple & robust | 22:22 |
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| DarkSim | But is it secure? | 22:22 |
| M4rtinK | QA makes sure only safe apps get to the app store | 22:22 |
| M4rtinK | QA = Quality Assurance | 22:23 |
| special | applications should be trusted. There is no sandboxing or particularly strong privilege control, currently. | 22:23 |
| Jonni | DarkSim: same security than unix directory permissions, so depends if you consider Linux / Unix to be secure. | 22:23 |
| DarkSim | I'm not being offensive though I'm just genuinely curious | 22:23 |
| DarkSim | having a smartphone OS debate in another channel | 22:23 |
| DarkSim | mentioned Sailfish and got immediatly shot down for it being insecure in comparison to Android | 22:24 |
| special | insecure in the sense of "an application running on the device is able to do things the user may not have wanted", yes | 22:24 |
| M4rtinK | application sandboxing is very hard to do properly | 22:24 |
| Jonni | if you compare malware in sailfish vs android, sailfish = 0, android = 10000000+ so it depends on the point of view | 22:24 |
| Jonni | but ofcourse installbase is different too | 22:25 |
| M4rtinK | without severely limiting application functionality | 22:25 |
| M4rtinK | and once a malicious app gets in, you are in trouble anyway | 22:25 |
| M4rtinK | and considering the crazy wide permissions many Android apps require to even run, even Sandbox is not much help | 22:27 |
| DarkSim | Hm, OK | 22:27 |
| M4rtinK | regarding Sailfish OS | 22:27 |
| M4rtinK | it is pretty close to a regular Linux distribution | 22:28 |
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| M4rtinK | AKA the stuff that runs most servers on the Internet | 22:28 |
| special | there's no need for a defensive tone | 22:28 |
| M4rtinK | but it all boils down to what you install | 22:29 |
| Jonni | mostly security depends on end user, if you install stuff from untrusted sources to desktop machines then its pretty much your own actions that define if your machine is secure or not, same if you root your android and press yes on every permission question from stuff that you sideload. | 22:30 |
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| Jonni | and luckily there hasnt been any malware released to sailfish yet, so there hasnt been malware issues, but if at some point sales figures increase and malware writers look in this way, then its upto end users decision if he installs blindly from untrusted sources, or from trusted sources. | 22:32 |
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| special | of course, the question is not just about malware | 22:33 |
| special | there's also privacy, controlling resources and information on behalf of the user | 22:33 |
| Jonni | well yes, its just a generalization, ofcourse your servers can have remote exploits etc. | 22:33 |
| Jonni | but generally sailfish users are quite aware what their device is doing, if they notice some application missbehaving ie gathering some private data etc, its beeing noticed quite quickly. | 22:36 |
| javispedro | tbh, I see nothing wrong in admitting it may be less secure | 22:37 |
| javispedro | because this makes it more convenient | 22:38 |
| special | it is much harder to get away with on a platform with strace, tcpdump, dbus-monitor, and gdb ;) | 22:38 |
| javispedro | people do this every time | 22:38 |
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| javispedro | say, if your user programs can just open() and read the contacts database, | 22:39 |
| Jonni | well yes, Harmattan Aegis was more secure in many ways, but it also hindered the progress. | 22:39 |
| javispedro | instead of having to IPC every contact because of some ultra-strict security sandbox, | 22:39 |
| javispedro | makes the design simpler, more performing, etc. | 22:39 |
| javispedro | (the con is also obvious) | 22:40 |
| special | the tradeoffs are something that need careful thought. I'm glad we didn't try to rush into something. | 22:40 |
| special | I would like to, in time, see more user-empowering security features (like requiring explicit user approval to access certain resources or data) | 22:41 |
| faenil | definitely | 22:42 |
| Jonni | well there is the simple unix security protecting for example facebook contacts, nemo user doesnt have access to read that db and rw access is only available on jolla system app group. | 22:42 |
| faenil | I can't run strace/dbg/whatnot on every app I want to install | 22:42 |
| javispedro | even stock android doesn't go "all the way", as other sandbox proposals have | 22:44 |
| javispedro | e.g. there's still the READ_SDCARD token (=~ STEAL_MY_PHOTOS, READ_MY_BACKUPS, ...) | 22:44 |
| Jonni | (and store QA checks that applications cannot request that group by default). | 22:44 |
| javispedro | which every other program requests. | 22:44 |
| javispedro | (as an alternative, they may have gone the "permission dialog is actually a file open dialog" route, so the token grants access to user specified file only) | 22:45 |
| javispedro | but those are pain to implement, both for platform and program developers. | 22:45 |
| Jonni | and also a pain for end users. I as a end user dont ever want to even see yes/no dialogs, if I see that kind of dialogs I'm throwing and smashing the device on the wall. | 22:47 |
| faenil | javispedro, but still, I don't really like the fact that apps can do everything without me knowing :/ | 22:47 |
| faenil | especially in a hackers-oriented community | 22:48 |
| javispedro | Jonni: sadly, the benevolent dictator approach doesn't work that well with more enlightened users | 22:48 |
| * javispedro hides | 22:48 | |
| Jonni | one of the reasons why I have never gotten me android phone is that I dont want to see any permission dialogs. | 22:48 |
| javispedro | faenil: well, as Jonni put, the current way is the way desktop Linux has been doing for the past 20 years | 22:48 |
| faenil | javispedro, yeah but on desktop linux you don't just install random apps | 22:49 |
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| faenil | there are known apps for 99% of the usecases | 22:49 |
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| faenil | and you know you *are supposed to* trust those authors | 22:49 |
| faenil | which is not the case for sailfish | 22:49 |
| faenil | so, I don't see those two anywhere close | 22:49 |
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| javispedro | don't know -- I certainly install plenty of things on my desktop, possibly way more than on my portable devices. | 22:50 |
| javispedro | and yet each and every of them has the "permission" to delete my entire $HOME. | 22:50 |
| faenil | sure, but what are the sources.. | 22:51 |
| javispedro | including this very IRC program. | 22:51 |
| faenil | is it 99% completely unknown individuals, like it is on mobile markets? | 22:51 |
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| javispedro | quite | 22:52 |
| Jonni | heh, and as long as I have a say in OS there wont be any dialogs in the device. (I might give up on tight dictator view and allow some setting for paranoid people). | 22:52 |
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| faenil | Jonni, ahah :) | 22:52 |
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| faenil | I don't know, I think desktop and mobile are so different you can't just compare them | 22:52 |
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| faenil | even just because doing malware for mobiles or getting user data from phones is the last few years' fashion | 22:53 |
| javispedro | faenil: most of the "protection" on the desktop comes from the fact you're using your distro's repository, and thus "many eyes" have looked at it | 22:53 |
| javispedro | but a similar reasoning applies to, say, Harbour. | 22:53 |
| faenil | does it | 22:53 |
| special | the state of desktop security is pathetic. | 22:53 |
| faenil | because I think it doesn't :) | 22:53 |
| javispedro | faenil: hey, ask the Harbour guys =) | 22:53 |
| faenil | javispedro, no I mean, the installbase is not that comparable.. | 22:54 |
| faenil | and if there's a package in a distro repo, it's probably not coming from a complete stranger | 22:54 |
| special | faenil: you'd be surprised, sometimes :p | 22:54 |
| faenil | you have so many layers of trust on desktop, which you don't have on mobile/sailfish, imho | 22:55 |
| javispedro | faenil: true in that at least to get packaged you'd need to make a github repo and some complexity so that a cursory examination does not reveal your evil intentions =) | 22:55 |
| javispedro | while on an app store this "cursory examination" is probably limited to running the program and pushing some buttons | 22:56 |
| faenil | javispedro, I don't remember it being that easy to enter a distro repo, btw | 22:56 |
| javispedro | suppose that depends on the distr | 22:57 |
| faenil | yep | 22:57 |
| javispedro | Jonni: are you against all kinds of prompts? or just android or ios prompt styles? :) | 22:59 |
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| special | prompts are often a stupid and lazy way to pass the responsibility of being secure onto the (probably unqualified) user. | 23:00 |
| special | see also: windows UAC | 23:00 |
| javispedro | yes, but who are you going to pass the responsability? the ghostbusters? | 23:01 |
| special | but it's a difficult balance and an area that we're (the computing industry) just starting to explore | 23:01 |
| special | well, if you ask Apple, you should pass the responsibility on to them instead. They'll keep you safe. | 23:01 |
| javispedro | and yet they're the inventors of "$PROGRAM wants to mess with your girlfriend. Allow access to contacts?" prompt! | 23:02 |
| special | those are good prompts, in my opinion. | 23:02 |
| special | they're immediate, they're directly empowering the user, there is a realistic option to decline | 23:03 |
| special | a bad prompt would be android app stores; you get a huge list of permissions, and your choices are to install with all of those or not install at all. | 23:03 |
| faenil | +1 | 23:03 |
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| javispedro | I see annoying prompts as a benefit | 23:05 |
| javispedro | they're there not to bother the user, but the developer | 23:05 |
| javispedro | at least that was the idea with UAC. | 23:05 |
| javispedro | supposedly, educated users would prefer programs that would require less of those annoying prompts to work | 23:05 |
| Jonni | javispedro: well yes, generally I'm against of all kinds of promts, people are stupid and dont understand the questions, and even if someone understands the usability is gone. But yes, I dont have easy solution who to pass the responsibility, maybe some kind of community based voting system which gives plus and minus trust points. | 23:06 |
| javispedro | instead of blaming the operating system for putting those prompts in the first place. | 23:06 |
| javispedro | unfortunately, educated users are endangered species. | 23:06 |
| faenil | Jonni, you can just "remember this" and it's done | 23:06 |
| faenil | or just grant have a setting | 23:06 |
| faenil | "ask" or "grant all" | 23:06 |
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| faenil | so you get no prompts and you're happy | 23:07 |
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| special | "many people are stupid" is not a valid reason to treat all people as being stupid; if you do this, you have a platform only appealing to stupid people. | 23:07 |
| faenil | but at the same time if you want to know if it's trying to send your location to the happy developer who wants to make a googlemap of his botnet, you can | 23:07 |
| javispedro | special: I think that's the point these days :) there's nothing wrong with assuming a stupid user. A) It sells more B) We all have our stupid days | 23:08 |
| Jonni | well maybe stupid is not the right reason, the usability is the most important reason for me, I really get annoyed to see prompts | 23:08 |
| faenil | Jonni, -> setting :) | 23:08 |
| special | faenil: have you never heard my settings rant? :p | 23:08 |
| faenil | special, nope | 23:08 |
| special | settings are lazy. You should design your application to be usable and ideal for a majority of the users/cases you're targetting without any settings of any kind | 23:09 |
| Jonni | I would prefer not to have setting, I'm more dreaming about some trust based voting cloud that verifies my apps and automaticly removes mallware | 23:09 |
| faenil | special, agree, but since Jonni really wants to be happy... :p | 23:09 |
| special | *then* you can add settings as tweaks for users and situations that don't fit those cases. Settings aren't an excuse for bad defaults. | 23:09 |
| faenil | special, agree | 23:10 |
| javispedro | Jonni: that works until the early-adopters of programs decide to revolt because their contacts have been deleted too many times =) | 23:10 |
| special | Jonni: I think malware is a different topic. | 23:10 |
| Jonni | and we 1st have to fix the bigger holes before even thinking about thse kind of settings and dialogs... | 23:12 |
| faenil | that is a different matter :D | 23:12 |
| special | academic discussion right now, no doubt | 23:12 |
| FireFly | Jonni: it's not just malware vs. non-malware. for instance, would you want an arbitrary game or whatever to have the right to read your contacts and messages? | 23:16 |
| * javispedro grabs two large trouts -- respectively called "extensibility" and "customizability" -- and slaps "no-settings-lover" special with them | 23:16 | |
| Yaniel | one could consider that "malware" | 23:16 |
| Yaniel | if it reads those | 23:17 |
| special | javispedro: I'm an OS X user. | 23:17 |
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| special | Yaniel: what about a social networking application that sends your contacts to a server to discover friends? is that malware? is it only malware if it doesn't ask first? | 23:18 |
| javispedro | special: never had the urge to get a global menu bar on $GNU_LINUX_DESKTOP (if you ever used one)? | 23:18 |
| javispedro | special: didn't feel sad when e.g. Gnome decided not to offer the option | 23:19 |
| Yaniel | for a social networking app that is kind of an expected feature (albeit one I don't exactly agree with) | 23:19 |
| Yaniel | but for a game? hardly | 23:19 |
| special | Yaniel: the point I'm making is that if you start applying the "malware" label, it gets very vague. | 23:19 |
| Yaniel | yes | 23:19 |
| Yaniel | that's what I meant as well | 23:19 |
| Yaniel | the line is quite blurry | 23:20 |
| special | I would classify "malware" as software that is explicitly acting against the interests of the user or their device; unauthorized bitcoin mining, bank account hijacks, RAT/surveillance | 23:20 |
| special | there's a separate category of software that is simply invasive; but everyone's definition there is different. | 23:21 |
| javispedro | (my last line was missing a ?, btw) | 23:21 |
| javispedro | yep | 23:21 |
| special | javispedro: I think excessive extensibility and customization is a major weakness of desktop linux, historically. There is a modern trend of eliminating some of it, and it's showing positive results. | 23:22 |
| javispedro | how many people rejected $CANDY_CRUSH_CLONE because it included "doing whatever it feels like doing with my address book" in its permission list. | 23:22 |
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| javispedro | the fact that these games spam your address book / facebook / etc. are considered _features_ by the users. | 23:23 |
| pp_ | send them to 7 ad networks | 23:23 |
| pp_ | :-) | 23:23 |
| FireFly | Make it an optional feature, then | 23:23 |
| pp_ | and my imei plaintext over http | 23:23 |
| pp_ | welcome to android | 23:23 |
| javispedro | once you're at that point, 'm not sure how a "one-rule-fits-all" benevolent dictator can keep everyone happy. | 23:23 |
| FireFly | I want to know what I allow a program to do | 23:23 |
| special | javispedro: particularly when said dictator's benevolance is in question, because their revenue is directly from targetted advertising too. Not that I'd mention any companies in particular. | 23:24 |
| javispedro | touché | 23:24 |
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| special | at least apple makes their money by honestly taking my money upfront | 23:25 |
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| Yaniel | anyway, that is a singleplayer game so by definition it has absolutely no reason to access contacts, calendars, network etc | 23:25 |
| javispedro | in its defense tough, the *cough* web search dictator does offer the "long list of permissions" dialog. | 23:25 |
| Yaniel | online highscores... meh, if you insist. but still no address book | 23:25 |
| special | the android permissions model is worth studying and learning from, definitely | 23:25 |
| javispedro | one might argue that it's in Google's interests not to actually give any incentive for people to carefully study permissions lists | 23:26 |
| javispedro | or to be restrictive in what they allow. Because that would kill in-app advertising. | 23:26 |
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| special | javispedro: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/12/google-removes-vital-privacy-features-android-shortly-after-adding-them | 23:28 |
| javispedro | heh. | 23:30 |
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