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| TopiasTelegram[m | Reply to qwazix (IRC): | 09:55 |
|---|---|---|
| TopiasTelegram[m | >qwazix (IRC): http://qwazix.com/shared/phone.pdf | 09:55 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | A few questions | 09:55 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | About this spec | 09:55 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | Do the menu buttons always haven't to be on top? And does the tab bar support side swipes? | 09:57 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I think we should really consider these things from usability perspective | 09:58 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I wouldn't want Nemo to be a regression on usability from Sailfish OS | 09:58 |
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| TopiasTelegram[m | Also, having a T9 thing on dialer is kinda pointless imo | 10:01 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | Rather there should be a search bar if you want to search for contacts | 10:02 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | When you type numbers you type numbers, when you type letters you type letters | 10:03 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | That should be how it's done | 10:03 |
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| TopiasTelegram[m | And the buttons on top bar are too small | 10:15 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | Some UX concerns that came to mind | 10:17 |
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| qwazix | TopiasTelegram[m, let's take theme one by one. I'll start from the ones I think are already addressed. | 10:52 |
| qwazix | Too small buttons: I believe that the huge mobile screens of today are underused. If one could comfortably use the keyboard and the buttons of an N9 or an iPhone 4 I think the size of their buttons was good enough. | 10:53 |
| qwazix | Bigger screen should mean more things, not bigger buttons. I do not remember exactly but our button hit area is a bit bigger than the N9. | 10:54 |
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| qwazix | On the other hand, the user should always go and tweak the control size and when we are done with scaling we should add a setting to do just that. | 10:56 |
| qwazix | On my not-so-huge 5.2" xperia I use 1 dpi setting smaller than default. On the 5.5" QHD LG G3 you could get away with 2 dpi settings smaller than default. | 10:58 |
| qwazix | The tab bar doesn't exist yet. There is an old spec which was never implemented. The problem with that spec is it doesn't leave space for buttons, or header or anything leading to inconsistency | 11:00 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | Reply to qwazix (IRC): | 11:02 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | >qwazix (IRC): Bigger screen should mean more things, not bigger buttons. I do not remember exactly but our button hit area is a bit bigger than the N9. | 11:02 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | well, as long as it scales well enough | 11:02 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | because at least in the glacier test app, the buttons are waaay to small to hit accurately | 11:02 |
| qwazix | On which device? | 11:03 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | J1 | 11:03 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | but not sure if the scaling is done properly on that | 11:04 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I haven't updated yet | 11:04 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | also | 11:04 |
| qwazix | J1 you mean SBJ? | 11:04 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | what is sbj? | 11:04 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | Jolla1 | 11:04 |
| qwazix | yeah that was the code name of the device | 11:06 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I don't speak agent | 11:06 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | :D | 11:06 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I think that buttons like that shouldn't be used for changing views | 11:07 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | buttons should be used to invoke actions | 11:08 |
| qwazix | haha, anyway, the original design was with the N9 size/dpi | 11:08 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | for changing views, one should use either a list view or a tab bar | 11:08 |
| qwazix | and now I can't remember the unlock code of the SbJ to check out | 11:08 |
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| qwazix | I agree, and I was trying a few things to make these buttons look more like a tab bar, but I didn't like any of that. For example a ^ pointing to the active one, or changing the background of the page to grey and having a grey tab behind the active icon | 11:10 |
| qwazix | but those both interfere with the gradient of the header. | 11:10 |
| qwazix | and I agree with the search bar, so I'll just re-do it without a T9 | 11:11 |
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| qwazix | the user will just need to switch the keyboard to T9 to type a number. And how often you call unknown numbers anyway... | 11:12 |
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| qwazix | One thing that sailfishOS has and I wanted to avoid was the full-screen flickables. While they work nice with apps that are just lists, they tend to create confusion when apps need to use gestures in their canvas (maps, drawing etc.) | 11:15 |
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| qwazix | So with that in mind, let's start a discussion of a new tabbed interface that actually works well within the header, and supports, but not requires, full screen swipes. | 11:16 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | qwazix | 11:21 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I think the tab bar should not be in the header | 11:21 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | tab bar should be its own element | 11:22 |
| qwazix | TopiasTelegram[m, isn't it too much wasted space? | 11:27 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | well not really | 11:28 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | but with this system, header is very much overloaded | 11:28 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | back button, page header, tabs and overflow menu | 11:28 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | and you should be able to swipe between views | 11:29 |
| qwazix | Ok, but what if there was a special space to swipe between views. E.g. tab bar on bottom, swipeable, but not the whole screen? | 11:32 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | what do you mean? | 11:33 |
| qwazix | I mean that what if you could be able to swipe between views only if you swiped on the tab bar, not the rest of the app | 11:34 |
| qwazix | The reason I'm saying that is because it has become quite standard in all platforms to swipe left and right to delete/dismiss items in lists. Swipe left-right is not a "safe" gesture anymore. And while not implemented, we also have specs for that kind of behavior in nemo | 11:35 |
| qwazix | this conflicts with full screen swipes | 11:35 |
| qwazix | https://github.com/qwazix/glacier-controls-spec/blob/master/listview/listview-medium.pdf | 11:36 |
| qwazix | Also, should the header be usability-wise, higher in the hierarchy than the tab bar or below? (i.e. does the header belong to the tab, or the app?) | 11:39 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | there's not much value in having the swipe only in the tab bar | 11:40 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | header should be view dependent | 11:40 |
| qwazix | If it's in the bottom, that is more than enough accessible space to swipe. | 11:41 |
| EmanueleSorceTel | Can I do a question? | 11:42 |
| qwazix | and if it's in the bottom it's easier to make the header view dependent. Or even leave that to the developer. If the header swipes away then it was view dependent. If it stays and only the content swipes, then its for the whole app | 11:42 |
| qwazix | EmanueleSorceTel, go ahead | 11:42 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I mean, if you have to aim for the tab bar to swipe switch a view, it's not really much different from just pressing the button to the tab | 11:43 |
| EmanueleSorceTel | If I got correctly, Glacier is the 100% free software UI for Nemo, it is possible to use it one SailFish? | 11:43 |
| EmanueleSorceTel | *on | 11:43 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | yes, I'm testing it on Jolla 1 | 11:44 |
| qwazix | TopiasTelegram[m, ok I will back down on this one and see how it goes in practice | 11:44 |
| EmanueleSorceTel | Will ever be the default there? | 11:44 |
| qwazix | EmanueleSorceTel, yes and yes | 11:44 |
| qwazix | but it's not completely finished | 11:44 |
| EmanueleSorceTel | On sfos, I mean | 11:44 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | qwazix: the whole swipe to switch view is good because you don't have to think too much to switch tabs | 11:44 |
| qwazix | TopiasTelegram[m, okay | 11:45 |
| EmanueleSorceTel | Ok, thanks for the answers :) | 11:45 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I do understand the concern that reserving left and right swipes limit the possibilities on app development | 11:47 |
| *** taaem_afk is now known as taaem | 11:49 | |
| qwazix | TopiasTelegram[m, yes but the if the developer wants he can avoid using the tab-view | 11:52 |
| qwazix | so it's not that big of an issue | 11:52 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I think the two main navigation styles should be | 11:53 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | list view | 11:53 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | and tab bar | 11:53 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | hamburger menu is aweful | 11:53 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | hamburger menu is almost never an option | 11:54 |
| qwazix | Agreed | 11:54 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | if you require to use a hamburger menu, most likely the better option is tab bar, a flat hierarchy | 11:55 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I think the pulley menu on sailfish is also similarly complicated | 11:55 |
| qwazix | hamburger menu is awful in many ways | 11:57 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | tab bar increases user engagement | 11:57 |
| qwazix | one is that there is a thing hierarchy higher than the default view | 11:58 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | while hamburger menu decreases it | 11:58 |
| qwazix | and that confuses the hell of the back-button-navigation | 11:58 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | indeed | 11:58 |
| qwazix | see for example on android how some apps open the hamburger when you click back on the main screen while some others just quit | 11:58 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | yeah... | 11:59 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | on discord you can choose | 11:59 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I like the nemo spec | 11:59 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | that left edge swipe is back | 11:59 |
| EmanueleSorceTel | Ubuntu touch uses top swipe for the OS top bar, left and right for swipes and apps use bottom bar | 12:00 |
| EmanueleSorceTel | Left and Right for switch apps | 12:00 |
| qwazix | Yeah that was the result of heated discussion :P. Ubuntu touch swipe scheme is too complicated IMO | 12:00 |
| qwazix | you can't remember all those swipes | 12:00 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | it is... | 12:00 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | but nemo should also use natural swipe gestures | 12:01 |
| qwazix | The only reason we agreed to have the left back swipe (not implemented) is that it's almost the same as the others (if you keep swiping you eventually do the same thing) | 12:01 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | if a view slides to the left, one should be able to do the reverse to go back | 12:01 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | that is good use of gestures | 12:01 |
| qwazix | TopiasTelegram[m, ha! That requires some clever coding. | 12:02 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I mainly refer to how Sailfish OS works and how nemo page stack works | 12:03 |
| qwazix | It needs to work like nautilus breadcrumbs, (i was advocating for that in my sailfish review on grog) | 12:03 |
| qwazix | i.e. remember which of the downstream pages was open before going back and allowing to go forward to that specific screen. It's a good interaction because it allows the user to easily "undo" a swipe | 12:03 |
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| qwazix | where are the latest nemo ui packages for sailfish these days? | 12:08 |
| EmanueleSorceTel | I got used to ubuntu touch swipes, and I have to say that three swipes to browse the entire OS and one app specific but always in the same place is not hard to use, it's very fast. However the UI is designed to suggest the four swipes, so they are natural | 12:10 |
| qwazix | gtg, see ya later | 12:17 |
| SergeyChupliginT | https://github.com/neochapay/qtquickcontrols-nemo/commit/2516c342fbd2cb4cca2adff5057587b23859a63c | 12:24 |
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| TopiasTelegram[m | Reply to Sergey Игоревич Chupligin (Telegram): | 12:34 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | >https://github.com/neochapay/qtquickcontrols-nemo/commit/2516c342fbd2cb4cca2adff5057587b23859a63c | 12:34 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | why is transition duration changed from a variable to a constant | 12:34 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | maybe Theme is the wrong place for animation durations(?) but I think it should be defined in some sort of global settings object | 12:35 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | I added a comment | 12:40 |
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| SergeyChupliginT | Reply to Topias (Telegram): | 12:48 |
| SergeyChupliginT | >why is transition duration changed from a variable to a constant | 12:48 |
| SergeyChupliginT | it not ended commit | 12:48 |
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| TopiasTelegram[m | ok, just noting that it should be fixed before merging | 13:07 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | but I think it would be best practice not to change them like that even for temporarily | 13:08 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | because there's a danger for bug then | 13:08 |
| TopiasTelegram[m | if you change the variable, you'll get warned if the old one is still there | 13:09 |
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| mal | qwazix: the old style tab view was implemented already, not sure if that should be modified somehow, the example app has it | 16:37 |
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| qwazix | ok that changes the situation. Can you please point to the latest .rpm's to install them on my jolla so I don't talk out of my ass? | 16:41 |
| mal | qwazix: which sailfish version do you have? | 16:42 |
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| qwazix | mal, latest stable let me see | 16:46 |
| qwazix | 2.0.0.10 | 16:47 |
| eetuTelegram[m] | qwazix, http://repo.merproject.org/obs/nemo:/devel:/ux/sailfishos_2.1.0.9/ | 16:48 |
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| mal | qwazix: 2.1.0.11 is latest stable | 16:51 |
| mal | qwazix: 2.0.0.10 is quite old | 16:51 |
| qwazix | hm.. I just updated yesterday, let me check for updates again | 16:52 |
| qwazix | ah yeah, probably it wanted to go step by step | 16:52 |
| qwazix | so do I just download and install or is there a way to add that as a repo? | 16:53 |
| mal | qwazix: ssu ar nemo http://repo.merproject.org/obs/nemo:/devel:/ux/sailfishos_2.1.0.9/ | 16:53 |
| qwazix | thanx | 16:53 |
| mal | qwazix: then pkcon refresh and pkcon install the packages you want | 16:54 |
| qwazix | kk | 16:54 |
| qwazix | waiting to do the system update first and then I'll check it out | 17:02 |
| mal | ok | 17:02 |
| qwazix | We'll have to find a way to use that without much changes. | 17:04 |
| qwazix | many* | 17:04 |
| mal | what do you mean without much changes? | 17:04 |
| qwazix | The original idea was that the tabbed view would be another "version" of the header. But that wasn't clear in the spec so I don't know how it is implemented (I thought it wasn't) | 17:05 |
| mal | it's implemented as a separate row below the header | 17:08 |
| qwazix | But above we were discussing about a tabbed view that contains the header, which might or might not need changes. I think we should avoid changes to things already done so we might want to rethink the view | 17:08 |
| qwazix | based on the current implementation. | 17:08 |
| qwazix | bbl | 17:13 |
| qwazix | nothing provides libQt5Core.so.5(Qt_5) needed by lipstick-colorful-home-qt5-0.6.2-15.1.Nemo.U | 17:28 |
| qwazix | X.MTF.armv7hl | 17:28 |
| qwazix | maybe I shouldnt have done the update? | 17:29 |
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| mal | hmm | 17:33 |
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| mal | qwazix: any luck? | 17:41 |
| qwazix | any ideas? | 17:42 |
| qwazix | hm no, tried other packages, the same. Google didn't show promise | 17:42 |
| qwazix | im also missing some icons after the upgrade | 17:44 |
| mal | did you try all packages? I usually install only qt5-qtquickcontrols-nemo lipstick-glacier-home-qt5 nemo-theme-glacier glacier-settings | 17:44 |
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| mal | I use zypper to install usually, maybe try that (install zypper if it doesn't exist) | 17:45 |
| qwazix | got it | 17:46 |
| qwazix | update removed the repo | 17:46 |
| qwazix | I added it again and it seems to be installing now | 17:46 |
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| qwazix | and now the example app doesnt run... | 17:49 |
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| qwazix | this application failed to start because it could not find or load the Qt platform plugin | 17:50 |
| qwazix | "wayland" | 17:50 |
| mal | hmm, did you start it from ui or commandline? | 17:51 |
| qwazix | both | 17:52 |
| qwazix | ui just fails, terminal shows error above | 17:52 |
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| qwazix | maybe reboot | 17:53 |
| qwazix | ok, now I think I killed it. Doesn't boot. | 17:59 |
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| mal | hmm, when you installed the packages what did it remove? | 18:02 |
| qwazix | I don't think it did, or I missed it. | 18:03 |
| qwazix | i'll try ssh'ing in | 18:04 |
| qwazix | nothing... | 18:06 |
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| qwazix | got in | 18:08 |
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| qwazix | pkcon update says it wants to update a couple of things, let's see if that fixes anything. I have a feeling that something went wrong in the previous update, ended too quickly | 18:18 |
| qwazix | Fatal error: Installation aborted by user | 18:19 |
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| qwazix | let's see if zypper follows through | 18:23 |
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| eetuTelegram[m] | which sfos version you are now? | 18:40 |
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| qwazix | 2.1.0.11 | 18:42 |
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| qwazix | just got in, glacier-gallery works, without the fons | 18:42 |
| qwazix | fonts* | 18:42 |
| qwazix | the tab bar is nothing like the specs, but we can work with it. And yeah it needs swipe. | 18:43 |
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| mal | qwazix: yes, it needs work | 18:55 |
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| mal | qwazix: about the tabbed view in current spec, how is that supposed to work with the toolbar icons or a menu? | 19:15 |
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| qwazix | mal, it's not, it's a bad design and that's why, since it was never implemented we were discussing of changing it to something more useful | 19:41 |
| SamTelegram[m] | I'll be back home on Sunday | 19:41 |
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