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| pavi | locusf: When would Nemo merge with Mer. Its harming the community to have 2 different names. As a newcomer I am too confused. | 17:59 |
|---|---|---|
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| tbr | pavi: supposedly the merge is mostly done | 18:06 |
| pavi | tbr: what does it mean by merge ? can we call now Mer as full fledged distro ? | 18:06 |
| pavi | or nemo is the distro ? | 18:07 |
| tbr | pavi: no, it's still a core, but it now has more middleware | 18:07 |
| pavi | tbr: so Mer still cant be called as a distro , inorder to install a new full fledged distro what else would we need ? | 18:08 |
| tbr | pavi: you need a hardware adaptation | 18:10 |
| pavi | tbr: by adaptation you mean drivers? | 18:11 |
| tbr | boot loader, linux kernel, optionally any user space libraries that the hardware might require | 18:11 |
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| pavi | tbr: it looks like everything jolla did for its sailfishos intentionally made Mer a unusable/broken distro . | 18:19 |
| pavi | basically Nemo should reimplement all the sailfish os propreitary stuff | 18:20 |
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| r0kk3rz | pavi: mer was never a distro, and was never meant to be one | 18:26 |
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| * tbr would not disagree with the statement once you s/distro/core and middleware/ | 18:26 | |
| pavi | r0kk3rz: Yeah thats what makes is unviable as a community alternative. too many confusing terms , Nemo or Mer . Why cant it be one single thing ? | 18:28 |
| pavi | *it | 18:28 |
| tbr | though the intention was probably "we can't spend any money (engineering time is money too) on making this work, we need to build up IPR to look good and survive" | 18:28 |
| r0kk3rz | because being a single thing harms what mer was intentionally trying to become | 18:28 |
| r0kk3rz | however from an alternative, it should be nemo | 18:29 |
| tbr | pavi: don't mistake the fact that you can't understand the meaning of a generic OS core/foundation for its viability | 18:29 |
| r0kk3rz | or potentially a third thing | 18:29 |
| pavi | tbr: Nemo existed even before Jolla if I remember correctly ? | 18:30 |
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| pavi | Mer was used only for community contributions to where it was necessary. The hardcore free software guys can play with nemo! | 18:31 |
| pavi | *necessary for sailfishos | 18:31 |
| pavi | No wonder nemo hasnt gone anywhere | 18:31 |
| tbr | pavi: and MeeGo DeveloperEdition/CommunityEdition existed before Mer/Nemo | 18:31 |
| pavi | tbr: yeah and even before MeeGo there was Maemo harmattan for N9 ? | 18:32 |
| tbr | no, that was a parallel thing that had nothing to do with anything really | 18:33 |
| pavi | And Nemo was something like the codebase for N9 taken and released as opensource , I installed it on my N900 long back | 18:33 |
| tbr | no | 18:33 |
| * pavi might be speculating too much , please forgive him :P | 18:33 | |
| tbr | you're getting it completely back-ass-wards to be frank | 18:33 |
| pavi | So maemo on N900 , maemo on N9 with *.deb as package manager , Meego with rpm as package manager, tizen etc joined crowd finally it became Mer ? | 18:35 |
| w00t | nemo's genesis was MeeGo CE, which was nokia taking the open source code released from the N9 and MeeGo, and making it actually run on an N950 (and N900 to some extent) | 18:35 |
| w00t | well | 18:36 |
| w00t | I say "nokia" | 18:36 |
| w00t | I actually mean "nokia and some random folks who helped" :) | 18:36 |
| w00t | nemo's continuance after nokia vanished from that scene was a random assortment of people (me, special, faenil, random other folks) deciding that this was a pretty good thing and it should get better, writing more applications for it | 18:37 |
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| pavi | w00t: coming to FOSDEM , I should buy you a beer for your efforts on Nemo | 18:37 |
| w00t | jolla appeared sometime in 2012 and wrote their own independent set of applications that take the place of what nemo's UI does, on top of the same libraries | 18:37 |
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| pavi | w00t: so more or less nemo is the distro we should bother about. Like debian is the distro while all the GNU/Apache/Linux stuff comes in Mer project . Sailfishos can be Ubuntu or even Suselinux for that matter | 18:40 |
| w00t | yes, although, nemo's not just a distro in the traditional sense | 18:41 |
| w00t | it also involves working on what you'd call a desktop environment (and all of the software going into it) | 18:41 |
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| pavi | w00t: The main forum for nemo is at TMO http://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=53 Is it active? | 18:43 |
| w00t | i'm not really the best person to ask - i've not really done much since 2013/2014, but i'd say that's probably the best place | 18:44 |
| pavi | looks like locusf is the active one | 18:46 |
| r0kk3rz | pavi: a distro is mostly packaging, putting together lots of things and bundling it all up into a consumable package | 18:46 |
| r0kk3rz | as you've noticed, there isnt really a bundled nicely consumable package for nemo | 18:46 |
| locusf | pavi: you can install Nemo on J1 | 18:48 |
| locusf | well "can" | 18:48 |
| pavi | r0kk3rz: yeah we need that, atleast an install guide | 18:48 |
| pavi | here comes the hero locusf ;) | 18:48 |
| locusf | its been a year since I did the first try | 18:48 |
| pavi | locusf: install guide for sfos2 ? | 18:49 |
| locusf | that part is for now my 4g modem/router | 18:49 |
| tbr | many of the nemo applications are drop in replacements for sailfish apps, as they predate them | 18:49 |
| locusf | yep | 18:49 |
| locusf | but middleware api might have changed | 18:49 |
| tbr | yeah | 18:49 |
| locusf | pavi: no, all of nemo, no sfos | 18:49 |
| locusf | not just glacier homescreen | 18:50 |
| tbr | also the settings ui was never good | 18:50 |
| locusf | still isn't :p | 18:50 |
| pavi | locusf: wow completely replacing sfos , does it work without a bootloader ? | 18:50 |
| pavi | jolla drivers are all binary for android , would they work ? | 18:51 |
| r0kk3rz | pavi: it would use the sfos hardware adaptation released by jolla | 18:51 |
| locusf | pavi: no, I just took sfos adaptation packages and bundled nemo with it | 18:51 |
| tbr | pavi: sailfishos in this case is 80% the same as nemo, so you only need to replace UI packages and some middleware | 18:51 |
| IgorSK | So, what do we get after Mer+Nemo merge? There was Just EnoughOS(Mer) + middleware_and_UI(Nemo) -- how exactly do they merge? Is it just an attempt to get things compile all together? Move to single build infrastructure (git +obs)? Or what? | 18:51 |
| pavi | locusf: ahh ok sfos adaptation is open source release ? | 18:52 |
| locusf | pavi: no | 18:52 |
| w00t | IgorSK: so, when you have an email client (say) you tend to have a lot of pieces involved in building it | 18:52 |
| piggz | http://www.modrana.org/misc/tizen-history.png | 18:52 |
| locusf | pavi: due to quallcomm being a dick | 18:52 |
| w00t | you have the actual email client source code | 18:52 |
| locusf | pavi: err j1 adaptation packages | 18:52 |
| w00t | then you have the libraries for the UI components you use (say, Qt), the libraries for the email client bit (in nemo/sf's case, QMF), and so on | 18:52 |
| locusf | its complicated :p | 18:53 |
| w00t | in the past, libraries were split between Mer and Nemo, which added a lot of headaches of all sorts of different kinds | 18:53 |
| pavi | wow cool info | 18:53 |
| w00t | the merge was about putting those pieces together in one place, to remove those headaches | 18:53 |
| locusf | which made another headache :p | 18:53 |
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| w00t | the UI implementation (either nemo or sfos) is still a seperate thing | 18:54 |
| w00t | locusf: well yeah, life is seldom simple :) | 18:54 |
| IgorSK | w00t, "split" like "have a copy of it's own" or like "one thing is here another is there"? | 18:54 |
| tbr | well the community wasn't given a choice. or it was a choice between plague and cholera in hindsight | 18:54 |
| locusf | the ui is now called Glacier | 18:54 |
| locusf | hence I did suggest the name GlacierOS once | 18:55 |
| pavi | So nemo with sfos adaptation packages will be running the same kernel as normal sfos ? In J1 case its android kernel with libhybris ? | 18:55 |
| locusf | pavi: yes | 18:55 |
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| w00t | IgorSK: no, just completely seperate. Qt lived in Mer, QMF lived in Nemo | 18:55 |
| IgorSK | w00t, I see | 18:55 |
| w00t | (and why was there that distinction? stupid under-the-hood reasons. no really good ones.) | 18:55 |
| locusf | also hey w00t | 18:55 |
| locusf | w00t: I've come to realize life's a bitch at times yes :D | 18:56 |
| pavi | locusf: if the replacement is exactly the same without UI whats the difference with your previous work and now ? | 18:56 |
| tbr | locusf: s/at times/all the time/ | 18:56 |
| w00t | (the actual reason was that QMF needed to talk to iphb, to know when it could rely on the modem being up to send traffic without wasting battery, and that functionality was *also* in Nemo, not mer. but that was another mostly artificial seperation, so..) | 18:56 |
| locusf | pavi: merged repository essentially + year of middleware changes | 18:57 |
| pavi | locusf: so I am interested, what are the steps for install :P | 18:58 |
| * pavi doesnt care about data loss provided he can reset | 18:58 | |
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| locusf | pavi: its not going to be 100% pavi-proof | 19:01 |
| tbr | one might want to try it in a VM or such :) | 19:02 |
| locusf | https://locusf.wordpress.com/2014/12/11/nemo-mobile-distribution-installation-on-a-jolla-device/ | 19:03 |
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| locusf | pavi: did you try it :) | 19:52 |
| locusf | it is involved yes ... | 19:52 |
| pavi | locusf: no not yet , arent they the same old instructions? | 19:52 |
| locusf | proof of concept at best | 19:52 |
| locusf | pavi: yes | 19:52 |
| pavi | so I need an SD card, do I need to backup stuff ? | 19:53 |
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| TemeV | pavi: you're about to install experimental os to you phone with an year old instructions and you're asking if you should backup? | 20:20 |
| pavi | TemeV: the instructions don't look so harmful. Its just flashing the bootloader and is pointing it to another folder which is mmc | 20:21 |
| TemeV | or actually let me correct that: You're asking if you should backup? | 20:22 |
| TemeV | Because you should always have backups | 20:22 |
| * pavi is just wondering | 20:22 | |
| TemeV | :) | 20:22 |
| pavi | I will backup important stuff though. I recently lost all the *droid junk ( happily ) thanks to some version change and some standard btrfs mess | 20:23 |
| pavi | Now that I am checking out my phone , there isnt much important on it except contact list. I don't trust the phone enough to keep important stuff on it. | 20:26 |
| tbr | there are 2 types of people in the world, those wo do backups and those who have yet to realize they should join group 1 | 20:27 |
| pavi | I do an rsync of the image gallery on the days when I take some pics with the awesome ( sarcasm) camera. :P | 20:28 |
| pavi | thanks to SSH its just a scp command | 20:28 |
| pavi | Any idea where the contacts are stored ? I dont wanna use the Jollas backup tool | 20:30 |
| TemeV | pavi: what's wrong with that? | 20:37 |
| TemeV | well contacts are in a sqlite database somewhere under /home/nemo/.local iirc | 20:38 |
| pavi | TemeV: just a personal preference towards commandline scp over using some tool ? | 20:38 |
| pavi | TemeV: there is nothing in .local except a share directory | 20:39 |
| pavi | which is also empty | 20:39 |
| TemeV | then I don't remember right :) | 20:40 |
| TemeV | I would make backup with Jolla's utility and scp the .vault | 20:41 |
| pavi | cant I just mirror the entire filesystem and be done with the backup ? | 20:41 |
| TemeV | sure | 20:41 |
| * pavi is hopeful about backup but not about restore | 20:41 | |
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| TemeV | that's my backup also, I regularry rsync whole /home/nemo | 20:42 |
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| pavi | my home dir is 4.2 G | 20:44 |
| TemeV | contacts seem to be in /home/nemo/.local/share/system/Contacts/qtcontacts-sqlite | 20:46 |
| TemeV | or at least some of them, I don't know if there is some other database hidden somewhere | 20:46 |
| TemeV | Now I need some sleep, have fun! | 20:46 |
| pavi | TemeV: sure thanks for the help | 20:47 |
| * pavi discovers that there is a systemd talk by Lennart P video on his Jolla from Fosdem15 :D | 20:47 | |
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