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| faenil | locusf: qwazix filippz stephg (feel free to tag other people who may be interested) so...the merge will still take a long time it seems, for business or personal reasons that we have no power over, what do we want to do? | 10:36 |
|---|---|---|
| faenil | the idea here was to wait for the merge to complete so we could set up the release process, patterns, image building back up again | 10:39 |
| faenil | and then resume development, once the situation on that side is sane again | 10:40 |
| faenil | but since things are moving at a slow pace, what do you think we should do? | 10:41 |
| faenil | keep using the frankestein merged obs repo and keep developing components and rebuild core apps? | 10:41 |
| faenil | tbr as well ^ | 10:42 |
| faenil | or abandon the project? | 10:42 |
| faenil | and since sledges is not active in this channel anymore, I'll just leave this here :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0 | 10:44 |
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| qwazix | faenil, I'm more and more thinking we should transition to building home + apps over vanilla sailfish for the time being | 10:46 |
| faenil | qwazix: that could make sense, at this point in time... | 10:46 |
| qwazix | (not optimal, but has much lighter curve for new contributors and is actually possible) | 10:47 |
| faenil | qwazix: yeah... | 10:47 |
| sledges | faenil:P | 10:47 |
| faenil | sledges: o/ | 10:47 |
| qwazix | also we can use the distributable sailfish sdk | 10:47 |
| qwazix | s/distributable/distributed/ | 10:48 |
| faenil | sure... | 10:48 |
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| sledges | this is what locusf already did with #sailpi | 10:50 |
| locusf | yeah I had the idea of using nemo but I stuck with sfos, sorry :) | 10:52 |
| locusf | its really sad to see this situation now | 10:52 |
| locusf | I'm in the option for waiting to see if this merger thing happens | 10:53 |
| faenil | locusf: so you vote more waiting | 10:55 |
| faenil | yeah the situation is sad indeed | 10:55 |
| faenil | lbt: can you confirm what needs doing is nothing that can be put on our shoulders? sorry if I ask again | 10:55 |
| sledges | am i right: locusf has already shifted onto an alternative until situation improves | 10:56 |
| sledges | but i understand that nemo can't be left hanging like that on longer run | 10:58 |
| locusf | sledges: right and wrong, I wanted to use sfos for the added attention that it has, nemo is more free and sailpi could use it more for the free software niche of people | 10:58 |
| tbr | faenil: I don't have good insight, but I'm concerned about Mer infrastructure too. | 11:02 |
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| tbr | faenil: also to spell out what you implied: completion, or even significant progressof the merge is probably unlikely before the tablet ships due to how people who can do anything are stressed/burdened otherwise. And to spell it out, I don't blame them. It's ship-or-bust. | 11:04 |
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| tbr | faenil / locusf: I think we should reevaluate though what options there are to move ahead on some level despite the status quo | 11:07 |
| tbr | If the sailfish targets are the only ones in a usable state, then we should consider using those as the basis for work that doesn't depend too much on the underpinnings. e.g. getting the app development restarted | 11:09 |
| tbr | other options could be related to nemo essentially forking itself (hopefully temporarily). In what form is hard for me to tell. | 11:11 |
| qwazix | tbr, exactly (re: targets) | 11:11 |
| tbr | What I'm trying to say "Let's not have the merge stop us from doing great stuff with open source" | 11:11 |
| qwazix | we don't have the manpower to fork, not by a long shot | 11:12 |
| tbr | qwazix: yeah, you'd need to put "fork" in quotes. It could be any form of temporary way to get forward. E.g. by taking a sailfish target and modifying it and overlaying it with updated packages | 11:13 |
| tbr | I'm happy to help in my limited capacity | 11:14 |
| tbr | there is one downside though, we incur technical debt and it's going to be even harder for a new person to understand how this all works and fits together | 11:14 |
| qwazix | I still prefer the "based on sailfish" approach, even if it's dirty | 11:15 |
| tbr | I guess that should at least allow the application/ui story to go forward | 11:16 |
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| faenil | yeah... | 12:07 |
| faenil | locusf: I'll ping you during weekend to play with it on my jolla, if that's fine by you | 12:07 |
| faenil | let's push this ship together! \o/ | 12:09 |
| faenil | spaceship, I would call it, give Glacier's style :D | 12:09 |
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| locusf | faenil: I'm at Helsinki now and only available at monday, sorry | 12:52 |
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| itviewer | hi，where can I find the latest mer source code repository? | 13:04 |
| itviewer | for example,the qt version in http://repo.merproject.org/obs/mer-core is qt5.2.1。 | 13:04 |
| itviewer | While，I spend a lot of time finally found two possible places may contain the source code： | 13:04 |
| itviewer | 1、https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/qtbase | 13:04 |
| itviewer | 2、https://github.com/mer-packages/qtbase | 13:04 |
| itviewer | but none of them contain the qt5.2.1（first one is qt5.0.2，second one is qt5.1.0） | 13:04 |
| itviewer | Now，I've been confused by the chaotic management of the project。 | 13:04 |
| faenil | locusf: no problem | 13:14 |
| faenil | itviewer: let me check | 13:14 |
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| itviewer | thanks | 13:15 |
| faenil | itviewer: so, generally speaking, when you want to see where a package comes from | 13:15 |
| faenil | you go to build.merproject.org | 13:15 |
| faenil | you "search" for the package | 13:16 |
| faenil | in this case, you end up here https://build.merproject.org/package/show/mer-core:devel/qtbase | 13:16 |
| faenil | once you're there, there's a file called "_service" which describes where OBS will pull the sources from | 13:16 |
| faenil | if you open that file, you'll find the URL where the package source resides ;) | 13:17 |
| faenil | (due to the nemo-mer merge being stuck for, like, 1 year, the URL I linked has an 8 months old package) | 13:17 |
| faenil | if you want to know what git repo is used in latest sailfish version, you'll have to ask a sailor, like Stskeeps | 13:18 |
| faenil | Stskeeps is happy when people bug him, so feel free! | 13:18 |
| faenil | lol | 13:18 |
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| faenil | Hurrian: you may want to express your opinion about the points I previously raised as well :) | 13:19 |
| faenil | Hurrian: and aside from that, how are you doing? :) | 13:19 |
| Hurrian | faenil: hold on, checking the logs! | 13:20 |
| faenil | Hurrian: great, thanks | 13:20 |
| Hurrian | and I've been _pretty_ busy over the past few months with uni stuff, and modding a G5 case to fit ATX parts | 13:20 |
| itviewer | faenil: too confused, I get it ，thank 有 | 13:21 |
| itviewer | thank you | 13:21 |
| faenil | itviewer: too confused? if you need help just ask :) | 13:21 |
| faenil | Hurrian: oh, cool :) | 13:21 |
| itviewer | I say the management of mer project | 13:22 |
| faenil | itviewer: yeah, I can't help with that :/ | 13:22 |
| itviewer | I know that，infact I intend to establish a branch based mer | 13:24 |
| Hurrian | well, yeah, this is odd, the project is basically forking itself | 13:24 |
| faenil | oh, I see | 13:24 |
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| tbr | Hurrian: funny enough that was the threat that was put up to enforce the merge happening in the way it started. "do it this way or we fork mer privately" | 13:25 |
| faenil | yeah, kind of | 13:25 |
| Hurrian | it feels like the gcc/egcs thing all over again | 13:25 |
| faenil | I mean, it made sense, since jolla is the main force behind it | 13:26 |
| faenil | but then, if in 14months you can't find the time to finish this merge | 13:26 |
| faenil | why should it happen in 2 months? | 13:26 |
| Hurrian | so, lemme get this straight, jolla wants to take Mer core in their direction? | 13:27 |
| faenil | Hurrian: I don't remember the details, but there was a discussion about that | 13:28 |
| faenil | and that's "fine", but they don't even have the time to move Mer in their direction! | 13:28 |
| tbr | Hurrian: they would like to work on it in the open etc. their problem is resource constraints | 13:28 |
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| faenil | yeah, they're still too resource constrained | 13:28 |
| Hurrian | mmm | 13:29 |
| faenil | super focused on delivering the tablet | 13:29 |
| tbr | because all resources go into surviving. developing mer is understandably not a priority | 13:29 |
| faenil | yeah | 13:29 |
| Hurrian | eh, i'd say that at this point it's worth forking the (Nemo+Nemo-mw) repos | 13:31 |
| faenil | Hurrian: I don't know if that's a solution | 13:31 |
| Hurrian | the (inevitable) mix of the Nemo and Mer projects is making things sticky, unfortunately from what I see | 13:32 |
| faenil | Hurrian: it's not really the mixing of the two | 13:33 |
| faenil | it's moving everything to GitLab | 13:33 |
| faenil | which is blocking the whole thing | 13:33 |
| faenil | because it seems it requires knowledge which only some sailors have | 13:33 |
| faenil | and I've been told it's not easy to transfer that knowledge, or there's no time, or both | 13:33 |
| Hurrian | integration with their CI for example? | 13:33 |
| faenil | don't know... | 13:34 |
| faenil | lbt surely has a more detailed picture of what's left | 13:34 |
| faenil | one thing is settings the correct permissions for the new gitlab repos | 13:34 |
| faenil | trying to replicate what's currently on github | 13:35 |
| Hurrian | oh, that plus the issue tracker etc? | 13:35 |
| Hurrian | yep that's messy | 13:35 |
| faenil | and I tried to help with that by creating a json which describes the permissions and groups, which I built manually analyzing the git history of all the nemo contributors for the last year | 13:35 |
| faenil | then lbt will make a script which takes that file and applies those permissions to the gitlab repos | 13:36 |
| faenil | aside from that, I don't know what needs doing | 13:36 |
| faenil | I just remember Stskeeps being quite confident in end of January that we could be done with the merge soon after MWC | 13:36 |
| faenil | so, it must not be *that much* work | 13:37 |
| faenil | it's just that the only people who can do it are stuck/busy, understandably | 13:37 |
| faenil | and, as tbr said, I don't blame them | 13:38 |
| Hurrian | yeah, probably just set aside - there are better things to do than maintain infra when you gotta ship a product | 13:38 |
| faenil | I just find it so annoying to have my hands tied for a year :( | 13:38 |
| faenil | Hurrian: exactly | 13:38 |
| faenil | Hurrian: stuff like surviving :D | 13:38 |
| Hurrian | so, is the plan to use the web gitlab instance or a community/jolla-hosted one? | 13:39 |
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| itviewer | “I just find it so annoying to have my hands tied for a year” +11111…… | 13:40 |
| Hurrian | (wait, is _this_ why it feels that a lot of the work has stalled?) | 13:41 |
| tbr | Hurrian: want fries with that realization? | 13:41 |
| faenil | Hurrian: yes | 13:42 |
| faenil | Hurrian: Mer's gitlab | 13:43 |
| faenil | https://git.merproject.org/users/sign_in | 13:43 |
| Hurrian | ah, a self hosted one | 13:43 |
| Hurrian | yep, this migration is going to take some time | 13:43 |
| * tbr suddenly feels reminded of https://hakanforss.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/are-you-too-busy-to-improve/ - especially the first | 13:44 | |
| faenil | Hurrian: the merge started 1 year ago, I think, maybe more | 13:44 |
| tbr | I think it was last year's FOSDEM that it came up | 13:45 |
| faenil | tbr: :D awesome | 13:45 |
| Hurrian | wow, that's... quite some time now | 13:45 |
| faenil | Hurrian: right?? | 13:45 |
| Hurrian | and I assume jolla maintains the repos? | 13:45 |
| faenil | I got to the point of thinking we could collect money and ask lbt to do it in his spare time | 13:46 |
| faenil | Hurrian: the issue really is we don't know what needs doing, I told you what I know (the permissions stuff), and I don't know what else needs doing, and nobody says | 13:46 |
| Hurrian | yep, it's a black box alright | 13:47 |
| faenil | I keep pinging lbt weekly to get status updates, and asking for a way to help | 13:47 |
| faenil | and in the end I feel like I'm just sounding like a moron, because nothing changed, not even a bit! | 13:47 |
| Hurrian | imo, community infra needs to be documented publicly - we don't hire a full-time sysadmin, so trustworthy users In The Circle (tm) should be able to pass the torch when needed | 13:47 |
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| faenil | Hurrian: how can I not agree | 13:48 |
| faenil | who dooes that though? jolla is busy working on the tablet | 13:48 |
| faenil | and they're the only ones with the map, or at least I couldn't get a map! | 13:49 |
| Hurrian | who hosts merproject.org? | 13:49 |
| faenil | I know that there are a few servers which live thanks to donations by Mer contributors (most of whom are jolla's employees) | 13:50 |
| tbr | I'm only aware of people who are jolla employees who have access to all infrastructure. | 13:50 |
| tbr | I'm probably one of the few who has limited access to some VMs inside. Mainly because of merbot | 13:51 |
| Hurrian | so, basically maintained by Jolla | 13:51 |
| tbr | I'm sure they would object to that statement, but practically, yes | 13:52 |
| faenil | and thank god Jolla's there :) | 13:52 |
| Hurrian | (oh nice they segregate things into VMs at least) | 13:52 |
| tbr | Hurrian: it's a very clean setup AFAIU. physical machines, running only VMs that can be migrated around | 13:53 |
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| Hurrian | and that's the way it should be :D | 13:54 |
| Hurrian | unfortunately, that indeed boils options down to what were discussed | 13:56 |
| Hurrian | accrue technical debt, or fork | 13:56 |
| Hurrian | (arguably forking would incur its own technical debt, having to set up and maintain _more_ infra and having more repos to merge back down the line) | 13:57 |
| Hurrian | it looks like we'll have to twiddle our thumbs for a while longer D: | 13:57 |
| tbr | Hurrian: I wonder though if the immediate penalty would outweigh the time lost in the long run. | 13:59 |
| Hurrian | well, that depends on _when_ you'd want to take the hit for it | 14:00 |
| * lbt notes discussion | 14:00 | |
| tbr | Hurrian: given a vague similarity between Tizen and Mer, it might be even reasonably easy to take a one time hit and rebuild Nemo on Yocto/OpenEmbedded/TizenCore | 14:00 |
| lbt | FWIW mer infra is essentially hosted and paid for by me, carsten, jolla and 1-2 community members (in that order) | 14:00 |
| Hurrian | continuing to work on the current repos (and builders held together by duct tape and bash) would defer the hit to when the merge actually happens | 14:00 |
| tbr | Hurrian: the benefit would be that you get rid of the infrastructure maintenance at the cost of everyone running their own copy of the build system | 14:01 |
| lbt | fwiw there are 34 VMs and a number of OBS workers on about 13 physical servers | 14:02 |
| faenil | lbt: thanks for the details | 14:02 |
| lbt | and also, fwiw, the infra shouldn't need any changes - the one thing that's a bit needed is to setup permissions on gitlab iirc | 14:03 |
| lbt | there's a couple of tasks (patterns) which also block some community HA work | 14:03 |
| faenil | lbt: can't we spend a couple hours together to tell me how to fix permissions so that we can complete the merge? | 14:04 |
| faenil | I'm open to spending the full weekend on it | 14:04 |
| Hurrian | that's a pretty big one time hit to rebase on OpenEmbedded/Tizen though | 14:04 |
| locusf | what happened to waiting :) | 14:04 |
| tbr | locusf: 1+ yesars happened | 14:05 |
| locusf | I was away for 2 hours and you're rebasing to tizen now :) | 14:05 |
| faenil | locusf: hahahah | 14:05 |
| faenil | nah it's just a proposal, I'd scrap rebasing on something else, honestly | 14:06 |
| tbr | locusf: no, I'm just idly pondering the options | 14:06 |
| locusf | okay :) | 14:06 |
| bencoh | rebuilding nemo on OE <3 | 14:06 |
| bencoh | (getting rid of obs \o/) | 14:06 |
| tbr | see, we found a volunteer ;) | 14:07 |
| bencoh | haha :) | 14:07 |
| faenil | what OE? | 14:07 |
| faenil | what's* | 14:07 |
| tbr | OpenEmbedded | 14:07 |
| faenil | oh | 14:07 |
| tbr | the build system | 14:07 |
| tbr | Yocto is the project that organizes things | 14:07 |
| faenil | ah ok | 14:07 |
| tbr | and Poky, Angstrom and Tizen are distro output that it can produce (there are more, those are the popular ones) | 14:08 |
| bencoh | they've had support for systemd and qt for quite some time, and the bitbake layers seem like a reasonable implementation for the "hw abstraction" design | 14:08 |
| bencoh | so it might be a good candidate | 14:08 |
| tbr | bencoh: if one stays with MIC for the images, then it's also possible to do hybrid work. I was entertaining that idea long ago for building HW adaptations using the YÖP toolbox and reuse in a Mer/Nemo context | 14:09 |
| bencoh | MIC would then fetch binaries resulting from the OE build ? | 14:10 |
| tbr | the build would spit out a RPM repository and MIC would fetch from it | 14:10 |
| bencoh | yeah | 14:10 |
| Hurrian | (wait, wasn't OE used to build WebOS and most of the Openmoko phone distros? that's quite the variety) | 14:10 |
| bencoh | it was used in webos, SHR | 14:11 |
| tbr | Hurrian: yes, also Opie and others | 14:11 |
| bencoh | quite a lot of people use it | 14:11 |
| tbr | I _suspect_ that someone more versed in OE plumbing could put together a proof of concept meta-nemo in a weekend | 14:12 |
| bencoh | he'd also need to be quite versed in nemo arcanes :) | 14:12 |
| tbr | the challenge would be in converting rpm specs to bb recipes | 14:13 |
| tbr | unless there is some automated way of handling specs | 14:13 |
| * tbr never looked close enough at meta-tizen | 14:13 | |
| bencoh | there are some tools to help with that | 14:13 |
| bencoh | but nothing really works out of the box | 14:14 |
| bencoh | (afaict) | 14:14 |
| tbr | yeah | 14:14 |
| bencoh | but erm ... what about the jolla/sf devs ? | 14:15 |
| tbr | that's why this is just theoretical pondering right now | 14:15 |
| bencoh | (not that I care, but they might not like/want to move everything) | 14:15 |
| tbr | bencoh: they won't. they're stuck with the status quo. the problem is that there is no resource available to go beyond maintaining the status quo | 14:16 |
| tbr | that's why I'm not really serious about this beyond thought experiments. It would be a radical move and would mean full departure from the current coexistence. | 14:17 |
| bencoh | yeah | 14:19 |
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| faenil | oh I just remembered the other showstopper, updating our QQC requires Qt5.3.. | 16:39 |
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